--- title: Otaku Talk author: Toshio Okada, Kaichiro Morikawa, Takashi Murakami, Reiko Tomii created: 2012-04-09 modified: 2013-11-20 description: Definition of otaku, mania, moe, dame, anime, and generations status: finished previous: /doc/anime/eva/2003-rahxephoncomplete-anno-izubuchi next: /doc/anime/eva/little-boy/2005-little-boy confidence: log importance: 1 cssExtension: dropcaps-goudy ... This transcript has been prepared from a [PDF scan](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/2004-okada.pdf "'Otaku Talk', Okada & Morikawa 2004") of pg 164--185 of [_Little Boy: The Arts of Japan's Exploding Subculture_](https://www.amazon.com/Little-Boy-Japans-Exploding-Subculture/dp/0300102852/), ed. Murakami, published 2005-05-15, ISBN 0300102852. The discussion took place on 2004-03-31. (See also the transcript ["Earth In My Window"](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/2005-murakami) by Takashi Murakami.) An earlier partial copy of this discussion [appears online](https://web.archive.org/web/20071229061158/https://www.japansociety.org/otaku_talk); it omits most of the images, and everything after the section [Generational Debate](#generational-debate). **Note**: to hide apparatus like the links, you can use reader-mode (). # Otaku Talk
by [Toshio Okada](!W) & Kaichiro Morikawa; moderated by [Takashi Murakami](!W), and translated & annotated by Reiko Tomii
[pg165] [Figure opposite: From _[DiGiCharat](!W)_ 1999 TV anime series] ![Figure right bottom: Kaichiro Morikawa (left) and Toshio Okada discuss _otaku_](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/morikawa-okada.jpg) **Takashi Murakami**: Okada-san, Morikawa-san, thank you for coming. Our topic today is the culture of _[otaku](!W)_^[The term _otaku_ signifies "obsessed fans, primarily of anime and manga." First introduced to the print media by the critic [Akio Nakamori](!W) in 1983, the word defies any simple (or simplistic) definition. While the word _otaku_ sometimes carries a derogatory connotation in Japan, it can have a positive meaning as a Japanese loanword in the West, signifying knowledgeable or hardcore fans of anime. For its etymological origin, see Noi Sawaragi's essay in this volume.] [literally, "your home"]. After Japan experienced defeat in World War II, it gave birth to a distinctive phenomenon, which has gradually degenerated into a uniquely Japanese culture. Both of you are at the very center of this _otaku_ culture. Let us begin with a big topic, the definition of _otaku_. Okada-san, please start us off. **Toshio Okada**: Well, a few years ago, I declared, "I quit _otaku_ studies," because I thought there were no longer any _otaku_ to speak of. Back then [during the 1980s and early 1990s], there were a hundred thousand, or even one million people who were pure _otaku_---100-proof _otaku_, if you will. Now, we have close to ten million _otaku_, but they are no more than 10- or 20-proof _otaku_. Of course, some _otaku_ are still very _otaku_, perhaps 80 or 90 proof. Still, we can't call the rest of them faux _otaku_. The _otaku_ mentality and _otaku_ tastes are so widespread and diverse today that _otaku_ no longer form what you might call a "tribe." [_zoku_ --Editor] [pg166] ![Figure top left: Miyawaki Shuichi, president of Kaiyodo, from _40^th^ Anniversary Kaiyodo Exhibition Official Guide_ (World Photo Press, 2004-05-05), page 174](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/shuichi.jpg) ![Figure bottom left: Great Hanshin Earthquake, collapsed highway in Kobe, January 1995](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/hanshin.jpg) **Kaichiro Morikawa**: Okada-san's definition of _otaku_ sounds positive, as if they're quite respectable. In my opinion, _otaku_ are people with a certain disposition toward being _dame_^[The word [_dame_](https://senseis.xmp.net/?Dame) (pronounced "dah-me") originated in the Japanese game of [go](!W "Go (game)"), signifying spaces of no benefit to the player claiming them---ie. useless spaces. In contemporary idiomatic Japanese, this versatile word variously means "no good," "worthless," "incompetent," "unacceptable," "pathetic," or "inept." \["What is argot, properly speaking? Argot is the language of misery."\]] ["no good" or "hopeless"]. Mind you, I don't use this word negatively here. To some extent, people born in the 1960s are saddled with the baggage of an "anti-establishment vision." In contrast, _otaku_, especially in the first generation, have increasingly shed this anti-establishment sensibility. It's important to understand that although _otaku_ flaunt their _dame_-orientation---an orientation toward things that are no good---it's not an anti-establishment strategy. This is where _otaku_ culture differs from counterculture and subculture. **T. Murakami**: Indeed, _otaku_ are somewhat different from the mainstream. They have a unique _otaku_ perspective, even on natural disasters. For example, the reaction of [Kaiyodo's](!W "Kaiyodo")^[Established in Osaka in 1964, Kaiyodo is a pioneer in _shokugan_ (literally, "food toys") and "figures" (see note 18).The company initially worked with confectionery manufacturers, but since 1982 it has devoted much of its business to developing original products. These now amount to some two thousand different items, ranging from "capsule toys" featuring characters from _Evangelion_ to those of the natural history series _Aqualand_ and _Dinoland_.] executive, Miyawaki Shuichi, to witnessing the destruction of the [Great Hanshin Earthquake](!W)^[The Great Hanshin Earthquake struck the region between Kobe and Osaka early in the morning on January 17, 1995. More than 6,000 people died, with more than 43,000 injured and nearly 320,000 evacuated. In an earthquake-prone country, it was one of the most devastating single events, comparable to the Great Kanto Earthquake in 1923, which destroyed much of Tokyo and its environs.] in 1995 was, "I know it's insensitive to say this [after such terrible disaster], but I think _[Gamera](!W)_^[_Gamera_ is a _tokusatsu_ (special effects) monster-film series featuring a gigantic mutant tortoise (_kame_ in Japanese, and hence the creature's name, Gamera). The original _Gamera_ cycle consisted of eight movies produced 1965–1980, with a second series of three movies appearing 1995–1999. In each installment, Gamera wreaks havoc on Tokyo and other Japanese cities while battling an array of other giant monsters.] got it wrong." You know, the aftermath of a real earthquake was used as a criterion in _otaku_ criticism. **T. Okada**: At the time of the earthquake, I raced to Kobe from Osaka, hopping on whatever trains were still running, taking lots of pictures. I agree, _Gamera_ got it wrong. To create a realistic effect of destruction, you need to drape thin, gray noodles over a miniature set of rubble. Otherwise, you can't even approach the reality of twisted, buckled steel frames. It was like, "If you call yourself a monster-filmmaker, get here now!" When [Mt. Mihara](!W)^[At 764 meters, Mt. Mihara crowns Mt. Oshima, located on Izu Oshima Island south of Tokyo. When the volcano erupted in November 1986, the island's entire population, some ten thousand altogether, evacuated the island within a day, as the flowing lava rapidly encroached upon residential areas.] erupted in 1986, the production team of the [1984 _Godzilla_ film](!W "The Return of Godzilla") went there to see it.^[In the 1989 film _[Godzilla vs. Biollante](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godzilla_vs._Biollante)_, Godzilla appears from behind Mt. Mihara.] They were true filmmakers. ## _Wabi-Sabi-Moe_ **Takashi Murakami**: Morikawa-san will present an exhibition about _otaku_ and _[moe](!W "Moe (slang)")_^[The term _moe_ originated in a computerized transcription error, when the character meaning "to burst into bud" (_moeru_) was substituted for the homonym meaning "to catch fire." _Moe_ in _otaku_ jargon denotes a rarefied pseudo-love for certain fictional characters (in anime, manga, and the like) and their related embodiments. For further detail, see _Otaku_: _Jinkaku_ = _kukan_ = _toshi_ / _Otaku_: _Persona = Space = City_ / _Otaku_: _Personalita_ = _spazio_ = _cittaa_, exhibition catalogue packaged with a figure (Tokyo: Gentosha, 2004).] [literally, "bursting into bud"] at the architecture bienniale in Venice in 2004.^[The presentation of _Otaku_: _Persona =_ _Space_ _= City_ at the Japanese pavilion of the [Venice Biennale's](!W "Venice Biennale") _Ninth International Architecture Exhibition_ (September-November 2004) was organized by commissioner Kaichiro Morikawa. It included works by the architect Kenzo Tange, the _otaku_ critic Toshio Okada, the company Kaiyodo, and others.] Your association of _otaku_ with architecture is unique. Please tell us about it. [pg167] ![Figure top right: _Gamera_ 1965 Film poster 103×72.5 cm](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/gamera.jpg) ![Figure bottom right: Kaichiro Morikawa's description of _Wabi-Sabi-Moe_, in Morikawa, ed., _Otaku: Persona = Space = City_, exh. cat. packaged with figure for the Venice Biennale's _Ninth International Architecture Exhibition_ (Gentosha, 2004-09-10), page 36](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/wabi-sabi-moe.jpg){.invert} **Toshio Okada**: I was most impressed by your phrase, _[wabi-sabi](!W)-moe_, in the exhibition thesis. _Moe_ is not an easy concept to comprehend, but when you linked the three ideas linguistically, it made a lot more sense. Those who are unfamiliar with the concepts of _wabi_ and _sabi_ [meaning "the beauty and elegance of modest simplicity"] must surely wonder what's appealing about feigning poverty. Likewise, with _moe_, until you get the concept, I'm sure people question the origins of this seeming obsession with beautiful little girls, _[bishojo](!W)_.^[The best-known _bishojo_ is [Usagi Tsukino](!W) (Serena in the U.S. version) of the popular TV anime series _[Sailor Moon](!W)_ (first broadcast in Japan in 1992). Her full title in Japanese is _bishojo senshi_, or "pretty-girl warrior." _Moe_-type _bishojo_ (such as the ten-year-old [Digiko](!W) of _[DiGiCharat](!W)_, a 1999 TV anime series) are generally young, innocent-looking girls.] But once you get it, you start to feel like _moe_ might become a megaconcept, exportable like _wabi_ and _sabi_. **Kaichiro Morikawa**: The truth is, I made up that phrase to pitch the show. But suddenly it was a headline in the Yomiuri newspaper. **T. Okada**: That's awesome. The fact that it became a headline means everybody can understand it. **K. Morikawa**: It's a play on something the architect [Arata Isozaki](!W)^[Arata Isozaki (b. 1931) is a leading architect-theorist who represents Japan's avant-garde and postmodern architecture. He designed the Museum of Modern Art, Gunma (1974) and the Tsukuba Civic Center (1982), among others; and created _Electric Labyrinth_ for the 1968 Milan Triennale. He is Artistic Director of _Yokohama 2005: International Triennale of Contemporary Art_.] did in his exhibition, _Ma_,^[Organized by Arata Isozaki, the exhibition _MA: Space-Time in Japan_ was first presented at the Museum of Decorative Arts in Paris in 1978. Under the thesis, "_Ma_ is the place in which a life is lived," as articulated in the accompanying catalogue (the English edition published by the Cooper-Hewitt Museum), Isozaki visualized different manifestations of _ma_ (literally, "space") in Japanese culture through diverse installations.] in Paris in 1978. He provided logical English explanations for such traditional concepts as _wabi_ and _suki_ [meaning "sophisticated tastes"] on exhibition panels. The key Japanese words---such as _wabi_, _sabi_, and _suki_---were inscribed in classical calligraphy and accompanied by lengthy English explanations printed in Gothic fonts. I decided I'd do the same with _moe_. There is a huge gap between people who know the word _moe_ and those who don't. Every _otaku_ person knows _moe_. For them, it's so basic. But it's not like all young people know the term. While at graduate school, I asked my colleagues about _moe_ but almost none of them knew it. It dawned on me that most mainstream people just don't know it. **T. Murakami**: That disparity is really intriguing. **KM**: It clearly corresponds with another gap between those who know that [Akihabara](!W)^[Akihabara is a huge electrics and electronics shopping district in Tokyo. Long dominated by household-appliance stores, Akihabara began to change in character in the 1990s, when large-scale stores specializing in personal computers and related products prompted its diversification, which in turn drew younger customers to the area. The rapid infiltration of _otaku_ culture beginning around 1997 completely changed the face of Akihabara. Kaiyodo was a pioneer in this transformation, moving its stores from the fashionable [Shibuya](!W) district, and was followed by other stores specializing in commercial and privately made merchandise related to anime, manga, and games, such as _doujinshi_ (fanzines) and character-based products.] is now an _otaku_ town and those who don't. Those who do know couldn't care less that others [pg168] ![Figure top left: (above and below) Akihabara today](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/akihabara-top.jpg) ![Figure bottom left: (above and below) Akihabara today](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/akihabara-bottom.jpg) are finally catching up, while those who don't know Akihabara today still think of Akihabara the way it's been portrayed in commercials for household-appliance stores. This gap reflects the state of Japanese culture and society today. To those who are unfamiliar with _moe_, I only half-jokingly explain, "In the past, we introduced foreigners to such indigenous Japanese aesthetic concepts as _wabi_ and _suki_. These days, people abroad want to know all about _moe_." A lot of people respond, "Oh, is that so..." **TM**: Morikawa-san, I'd like to ask you, then: What prompted _otaku_ to gather in Akihabara? **KM**: _Otaku_ are self-conscious about being condescended to, when they go to fashionable places like Shibuya.^["Shibuya is a district of Tokyo controlled by the Sezon and Tokyo groups, companies that promote a fashionable and sophisticated urban lifestyle through their consumer products. As such, the whole town has become a gigantic advertisement." (Morikawa)] But they feel safe in Akihabara, because they know they'll be surrounded by people who share their quirks and tastes. Over time, the focus of _otaku_ taste shifted from science fiction to anime to _[eroge](!W)_^[_Eroge_ is an abbreviation for "erotic games." It is a subcategory of _bishojo_ games (see note 22) that includes sexually explicit, adult content, and is thus unavailable to people under the age of eighteen. The most representative _eroge_ is [_To Heart_](!W).] [erotic games], as young boys who once embraced the bright future promised by science saw this future gradually eroded by the increasingly grim reality around them. I think they needed an alternative. [pg169] ![Figure top right: Digiko from _DiGiCharat_](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/digiko.jpg) **TO**: I think _[kawaii](!W)_^[For _kawaii_ in contemporary Japanese art and pop culture, see Midori Matsui's essay in this volume.] [literally, "cute"] is the concept Murakami-san exported throughout the world. Granted, Murakami-san's _kawaii_ is alarming enough. But I wonder why I was further alarmed by Morikawa-san's formulation of _wabi_-_sabi_-_moe_. In a previous conversation we had for a magazine article, you said, "_Otaku_ is about the vector toward _dame_." As a way of expanding on that, when _otaku_ choose this orientation, they head in the direction of becoming more and more pathetic. At the same time, they enjoy watching themselves becoming increasingly unacceptable. If you think about it, in a very, very loose sense, this is _wabi_ and _sabi_. I suspect this orientation is inherent in Japanese aesthetics. If you look for a Western equivalent, it would be Decadence, or the Baroque, though theirs is a tendency toward excessive decorativeness. I imagine such people think of themselves not in terms of "See what we've done. We're amazing," but more like, "See what we've done! How pathetic we are!" **TM**: I have said this many times, but I am a "derailed" _otaku_. Neither of your situations applies to me. When I am talking to Okada-san, I remember feeling like I could never keep up with the distinctive climate of the _otaku_ world. So, I now want to explore the real reasons why I escaped being an _otaku_. **TO**: Probably because _otaku_ standards were so high when you tried to join them. Besides, I bet you wanted to go right to the heart of _otaku_, didn't you? The closer you tried to get to the heart of the _otaku_ world, the farther you had to go. **TM**: That's not just true with _otaku_, though. The world of contemporary art is exactly the same. If you can't discuss its history, you won't be taken seriously and you won't be accepted on their turf. I kept being reminded of this while listening to you two talk. **TO**: In other words, just as you once had to know the history of contemporary art, now you have to understand _moe_, right? [pg170] ![Figure top left: Kaichiro Morikawa's diagram, "Upward and Downward Shifts in Anime", showing the "shift away from _moe_" (above), from Nausicaa to Motoko Kusanagi (_Ghost in the Shell_) to Mei (_My Neighbor Totoro_) to Chihiro (_Spirited Away_); and "shift toward moe" (below), from Lum (_Urusei Yatsura_) to Serena (_Sailor Moon_) to Rei (_Evangelion_) to Ayu Tsukimiya (_Kanon_)](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/diagram-moe.jpg) ## _Otaku_ vs _Mania_ **Takashi Murakami**: This may be a frequent question, but what is the difference between _otaku_ and _mania_^[In Japan, a person who has a fanatical enthusiasm for or interest in something is called _mania_, derived from the English "maniac."]? **Kaichiro Morikawa**: In _otaku_ studies, we often argued about this distinction. Generally speaking, three differences have been articulated. First of all, _mania_ are "obsessives" who are socially well adjusted. They hold down jobs and love their hobbies. In contrast, _otaku_ are socially inept. Their obsessions are self-indulgent. This point is raised mainly by the self-proclaimed _mania_, critical of _otaku_. The second point concerns what they love. _Mania_ tend to be obsessed with, for example, cameras and railroads, which have some sort of materiality (_jittai_), while _otaku_ tend to focus on virtual things such as manga and anime. In other words, the objects of their obsessions are different. The third point relates to the second one. A _mania_ tends to concentrate on a single subject---say, railroads---whereas an _otaku_ has a broader range of interests, which may encompass "figures,"^["Figures" (pronounced _figyua_ in Japanese) are a counterpart of American "action figures," broadly encompassing plastic representations of popular characters from anime, manga, and games.] manga, and anime. Taken together, I would say---although Okada-san may disagree with me---that someone who is obsessive about anime likes anime despite the fact that it's no good, _dame_. That's _mania_. But _otaku_ love anime because it's no good. **Toshio Okada**: _Mania_ is an analogue of _otaku_. Obsessives are adults who enjoy their hobbies, while _otaku_ don't want to grow up, although financially, they are adults. These days, you're not welcome in Akihabara if you aren't into _moe_. I was already a science-fiction _mania_ when _otaku_ culture kicked in. I can understand it, but I can neither become an _otaku_ myself nor understand _moe_. [Laughs] **T. Murakami**: And I'm nowhere near Okada-san's level. I failed to become an _otaku_. Period. [Laughs] **T. Okada**: I believe _otaku_ culture has already lost its power. What you find in Akihabara today is only sexual desire. They all go to Akihabara, which is overflowing with things that offer convenient gratification [pg171] ![Figure top right: Takeshi (left) and Yoshimi from _DiGiCharat_](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/fanboys.jpg){.invert} ![Figure bottom right: Akihabara](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/akihabara-ecchi.jpg) [pg172] ![Figure top left: _Ujikintoki Sonome_ (vol. 4) from _Weekly Dearest My Brother_ 2004 Plastic-figure assembly kit packaged with booklet (see pl. 20)](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/sonome-figure.jpg) ![Figure top middle: Character design and figure model: Ohshima Yuki Illustrator (cover): Yuki Shin'ichi](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/sonome-cover.jpg) of sexual desire, made possible by the power of technology and the media. **K. Morikawa**: But I think the sexual desire in Akihabara is different from that in [Kabuki-cho](!W).^[Kabuki-cho is an area no more than a few hundred meters square, northeast of Shinjuku's subway and railroad hub in Tokyo. In addition to many small restaurants and bars, it is crowded with massage parlors and other purveyors of sex.] **TO**: Kabuki-cho is about physical sex. Because the heart of _otaku_ culture shuns the physical, it has renamed _seiyoku_ [sexual desire] as _moe_. Sexual fantasies are becoming more and more virtual and "virtual sexuality" proliferates in Akihabara. **KM**: Many _otaku_ think they like what they like even though they know these things are objectionable, when in fact they like them precisely because they are objectionable. This gap between their own perception and reality has made it difficult to distinguish _otaku_ from _mania_. If we define _otaku_ through this orientation toward the unacceptable, it's easy to explain the three differences between _otaku_ and _mania_. Because if you like something that's socially unacceptable, you will appear antisocial. Another consideration is that material things are considered superior to the immaterial. So if you are interested in the debased, you naturally gravitate [pg173] ![Figure top right: _Sister Princess 2_ 2003 PlayStation2 game](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/sister-princess-2.jpg) toward the virtual. In addition, _otaku_ don't just purely love anime or manga, they choose to love these things in part as a means of making themselves unacceptable. That is why their interests are so broad. This _dame_-orientation is evidenced by the history of _otaku_ favorites. Up until the 1980s, people who watched anime---any kind of anime, be it [Hayao Miyazaki](!W)^[Hayao Miyazaki is an anime artist, film director, manga writer, and founder of the anime company [Studio Ghibli](!W). He first made his name with his manga _[Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind](!W "Nausicaä of the Valley of the Wind (manga)")_ (1982--94) and its cinematization in 1984. Often centering on such themes as the conflict of nature vs. science and technology or the destruction and rebirth of civilization, he has created such popular anime films as _[Princess Mononoke](!W)_ (_Mononoke-hime_, 1997) and _[Spirited Away](!W)_ (_Sen to Chihiro no kamikakushi_, 2003), which won the Academy Award for best feature-length animated film.] or [Mamoru Oshii](!W)^[Mamoru Oshii is an anime creator and director. He directed the TV anime series (1981) and cinematization (1982 and 1983) of _[Urusei Yatsura](!W)_ by [Rumiko Takahashi](!W), the anime science-fiction film _[Ghost in the Shell](!W)_ (Kokaku kidotai, 1995), and the live-action film [_Avalon_](!W "Avalon (2001 film)") (2001), among others.] or whatever---were all considered _otaku_. Today, Japanese anime is so accomplished that one film even won an Academy Award. As a result, grown-ups can safely watch, say, Miyazaki's anime without being despised as _otaku_. The upshot of this is, as soon as anime and games earned respectability in society, _otaku_ created more repugnant genres, such as _bishojo_ games^[_Bishojo_ games have two categories: _eroge_ ("erotic games"; see note 15) and _gyaruge_ ("gal games"). While the former include sexually explicit content, the latter do not. It should be noted, however, that the labeling criteria vary from manufacturer to manufacturer, depending on the intended medium for the game software (ie. a computer or a "game machine" such as PlayStation and Game Boy).] and _moe_ anime,^[Exemplars of the _moe_-anime genre are _DiGiCharat_ (1999; see note 10) and _[Love Hina](!W)_ (2000).] and moved on to them. **TM**: Morikawa-san, you're saying the essence of _otaku_ is their orientation toward _dame_, the unacceptable. **KM**: Yes, yes. But _dame_ does not define something as bad or low quality. It's the self-indulgent fixation of _otaku_ on certain things that is socially unacceptable. **TO**: I totally disagree. Morikawa-san and I have two vastly different conceptions of who are the core tribe of _otaku_. Morikawa-san, your _otaku_ are "urban-centric"; they are the hopeless _otaku_ who roam about Akihabara. That's why you say _otaku_ are _dame_-oriented. You have to remember that only about fifty thousand people buy _[Weekly Dearest My Brother](!W)_.^[Released in 2004, _Shukan watashi no onii-chan_ / _Weekly Dearest My Brother_ is a series of boxed sets, each containing a _bishojo_-centered comic booklet and a figure. These depict the lives of girls attending a fictional private elementary school; figures are produced by Kaiyodo. To date, six different boxes have been issued in total.] It's wrong to define them as core _otaku_. In my experience, _otaku_ like science fiction and anime not because these things are worthless, but because they are good. _Otaku_ are attracted by things of high quality. Some _otaku_ obsessions become hits, others don't. But according to Morikawa-san's definition, the question of "quality" becomes irrelevant in _otaku_ culture. But what's survived in _otaku_ culture hasn't become unacceptable. It's survived the competition because its quality has been recognized. Once something like a _bishojo_ game achieves a certain level of quality, you buy it even if you don't actually like _bishojo_ games. I feel _otaku_ are tough [pg174] customers who demand high standards. As a producer of video and manga magazines, I was keenly aware of their standards and thought, "They make me work really hard because they won't fall for cheap tricks." ## Generational Debate **Takashi Murakami**: I have to confess, I don't think I fully understand the _moe_ sensibility. **Toshio Okada**: The _moe_ generation is mostly made of _otaku_ 35 or younger. I myself belong to the previous _otaku_ generation, so frankly I don't understand _moe_. The generational shift is abrupt. Some people below a certain age know what _moe_ is about. But those of us above that age can't figure out why they like _bishojo_ so much. It seems to us that they like anything involving beautiful young girls. There is a general debate. The liveliest topic in the _otaku_ world these past few years has been this generational debate. Among themselves, _otaku_ refer to belonging to this generation or that. **Kaichiro Morikawa**: I'm not that interested in the generational debate. Once you have a clear definition of _otaku_, then you can have a generational debate. But there is no generally accepted framework for understanding _otaku_. So it's futile to subdivide _otaku_ **T. Okada**: Morikawa-san, what is your definition of _otaku_? **K. Morikawa**: If you track the central focus of so-called _otaku_ through the generations, Okada-san's generation focused on science fiction, followed by a generation that favored anime, which was in turn followed by another interested in _moe_ anime and _bishojo_ games. How did this evolution take place? Manga provide a handy example. Before I was born [in 1971], college students reading manga on the trains were considered a serious social problem. Back then, manga were for children. Grown-ups were supposed to watch TV dramas. Foreign TV dramas were better than domestic ones, and films were even better than that. And European films were considered more sophisticated than Hollywood [pg175] movies. There was a clear cultural hierarchy, and manga were at the bottom. The spiteful label of _otaku_ was attached to grown-ups who had unacceptable tastes and still enjoyed kids' stuff. As far as society is concerned. today's _otaku_ taste for _moe_ is more repugnant than watching porn. Eroticism is not the only motivation that informs their fascination with _moe_. They have a strong urge for what is unacceptable. _Otaku_ who buy _Weekly Dearest My Brother_ not only feel affection for toy figures, but also enjoy being the kind of people who "buy embarrassing, tasteless things." **TO**: _Otaku_ are bashful. They are intelligent but so bashful that they're more comfortable with children's anime than with regular movies. They can shed their reserve if a serious idea is filtered through a "Made for Children" label. I suspect that people who love toys and figures, manga, and anime love them because they can see the world through this filter of reticence. _Otaku_ consume this stuff because of the twist that indulges their shyness. At any rate, I have never seen an orientation toward the unacceptable among _otaku_. For example, _[Space Battleship Yamato](!W)_^[_Space Battleship Yamato_ (_Uchu senkan Yamato_; broadcast in the U.S. as _Star Blazers_) was a breakthrough TV anime series, first broadcast in Japan in 1974. See pl. 27 and Sawaragi's essay.] dates from the first half of the 1970s, followed by _[Mobile Suit Gundam](!W)_^[_Mobile Suit Gundam_ (_Kido senshi Gandamu_), first broadcast in 1979, was a TV anime series that spawned a long line of sequel series. See pl. 30.]. ![Figure left bottom: Sarin gas attack on Tokyo subway by Aum Shinrikyo, March 20, 1995](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/sarin.jpg) [pg176] ![Figure left top: _Harmageddon_ 1983 (original film release) DVD of anime film (cover)](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/harmageddon.jpg) Now, Morikawa-san, would you say _Gundam_ was more unacceptable than _Yamato_? I don't think so. The more examples I show you, the less solid your theory becomes. **KM**: Well, let me repeat myself. Being no good, _dame_, doesn't mean the quality is poor. On the contrary... the quality is very high, but it's a matter of self-consciousness on the part of _otaku_. They are concerned that their self-indulgence appears socially unacceptable. **TO**: Well, then, do you mean from the mid- to late 1970s, things got progressively more unacceptable from _Yamato_ to _Gundam_, and then _Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind_?^[_Nausicaa of the Valley of the Wind_ (_Kaze no tani no Naushika_; modified and released in the U.S. as _Warriors of the Wind_) first took form in 1982 as a serialized manga epic (serialized through 1994), created by Hayao Miyazaki (see note 20), who went on to direct the 1984 film based on the manga. Princess Nausicaa, who grows up in a safe haven insulated from the polluted world a thousand years after a great war, uses her intellect, heart, and courage to protect everything she loves.] I don't think so. An inclination for _dame_ appears to exist because _otaku_ have shifted to _bishojo_ these past few years. Within this limited context, you may have a point, but veteran _otaku_ have to disagree. **KM**: Generally speaking, I see a downward spiral. [Aum Shinrikyo](!W)^[For Aum Shinrikyo, an armed cult group that released deadly Sarin gas on Tokyo subways, see Sawaragi's essay.] was influenced by _[Genma Wars](!W)_.^[_Genma Wars_ (_Genma taisen_), a story about people with supernatural abilities who fight Genma (Phantom Demon) to protect the Earth, originated as a series of books by Kazumasa Hirai. The novels were adapted by Shotaro Ishinomori as manga, and were subsequently made into an anime film in 1983 (released as _Harmagedon_ in the U.S.).] In the 1980s, _otaku_ dreamt of Armageddon; they fantasized about employing supernatural powers to create a new world after the end of the world. But Aum's subway attack in 1995 thoroughly shattered the post-apocalyptic _otaku_ dream of creating a new world in which they would be heroes. After their apocalyptic fantasies collapsed, they steadily shifted to _moe_. Before their Armageddon obsession, there was science fiction, which provided _otaku_ with an alternative to the actual future. In the broadest terms, _moe_ has replaced the "future". **TO**: But your definition of science fiction is narrow. In Japan, science fiction was viable as a literature of alternative futures only through the 1930s. From the 1960s onward, science fiction became socially conscious, a lens into alternative societies. In Japan science fiction was associated with the future only during the brief period between World Wars I and II. As you know, _[Japan Sinks](!W)_^[For the science-fiction novel _Japan Sinks_ (_Nihon chinbotsu_), see Sawaragi's essay.] by Sakyo Komatsu, a blockbuster in 1973, wasn't a story about the future. Futuristic science fiction never took off here. [pg177] **T. Murakami**: Morikawa-san, how do you define the "future"? **KM**: The future is not merely a time yet to come. It's a vision of the world based on scientific understanding. **TO**: Again, that is true only through the 1940s. Even the visions of the future presented by [Robert A. Heinlein](!W) and [Isaac Asimov](!W) were discredited by the harsh attacks from the [New Wave movement](!W "New Wave science fiction").^["New Wave science fiction, characterized by its philosophical bent, arose in the late 1960s and early 1970s. Representative writers include [J.G. Ballard](!W) in the U.S. and Koichi Yamano in Japan." (Okada)] Whether we're talking about science fiction or anime, our views are so divergent. I don't see things the way you do, Morikawa-san. Not at all. **KM**: You mean, we have an unbridgeable gap? **TO**: Not necessarily. I am sympathetic to your observation that _[Expo ‘70](!W)_^[_Expo ‘70_, held in Osaka in 1970, was the first World's Fair in Asia. Under the theme of "Progress and Harmony of Mankind", it featured a wide range of technological triumphs as well as projections for the future---from space technology (the U.S. pavilion exhibited a moon rock and an Apollo spacecraft) to a monorail, moving sidewalks, and electric cars, to computer-linked information services.] prefigured an _otaku_ landscape, and that today's _otaku_ are fascinated with _moe_. But as far as your definition of _otaku_ is concerned, I think you are wrong. Because we are reading different "texts". **TM**: I'm beginning to see a crucial generation gap between Okada-san and Morikawa-san. Speaking from my generation, I, too, find _otaku_ more compelling than _moe_. **TO**: Murakami-san, I know you are preoccupied with _otaku_, but I don't think _otaku_ will generate anything more interesting than _moe_. I belong to a group of model-tank makers. When I meet with them, I can't tell them apart from the guys who obsess about _moe_. They carry backpacks and wear sweatsuits. They look like stereotypical _moe_ enthusiasts, but you never know which toy figure---_bishojo_ or model thank---they're going to pull out of their backpacks. If we refer to them as a "tribe", they all belong to the same tribe, but the model-tank guys are never into _bishojo_. Actually, they hate _bishojo_. **KM**: How are they different from _mania_? **TO**: To answer your question, I have to go back to my own definition of _otaku_. The sole difference between _mania_ and _otaku_ is their social acceptability. _Otaku_ are _mania_ who are socially rejected. Conversely, [pg178] ![Figure top left: _Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence_ 2004 Film poster](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/gits2.jpg) the hobbies of _mania_ are those that are socially accepted. For example, the moment girls decide that motorbikes aren't cool, motorbike _mania_ become motorbike _otaku_. It's just a matter of societal labeling. That's the only difference between _mania_ and _otaku_. **KM**: Doesn't that mean they are oriented toward the unacceptable? **TO**: No, it doesn't. Even if a motorbike _mania_ suddenly becomes a motorbike _otaku_, he doesn't become an _otaku_ because he is unacceptable. He only becomes unacceptable because society says he is. Let's use an extreme example. It's possible that one day the Japanese people will suddenly be defined as unacceptable. Say we become the enemy of the world for some reason. Would you then say we Japanese are inherently unacceptable? I don't think so. It boils down to the question of societal labeling. **KM**: In that case, let's suppose that one day anime is legitimized and enters school textbooks. Would _otaku_ obsessed with anime today still love anime then? I think not. That's not plausible. Okada-san, if we accept your definition, _otaku_ should love anime regardless of how society values it. If anime became so wonderful that schoolteachers recommended it to their students, would _otaku_ still seek out anime? I seriously doubt it. **TO**: I can prove you wrong. Some _otaku_ works are socially accepted, others are not. Anime films by, say, Hayao Miyazaki or Mamoru Oshii are respected. Have _otaku_ lost interest and quit watching them? No. I don't think societal labeling affects what they are attracted to. In fact, many _otaku_ support Mamoru Oshii's latest animated film, _[Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence](!W)_.^[Oshii's _Innocence_ (2004, released as _Ghost in the Shell 2: Innocence_ in the U.S.) was nominated for the Cannes Film Festival in 2004.] Morikawa-san, when you talk about _dame_, the unacceptable, aren't you talking about "literature" (_bungaku_)? For practitioners of _jun-bungaku_^["As opposed to popular and mass literature, _jun-bungaku_ (pure literature) aspires to achieve the purity of art, eschewing popular tastes and a wider reception. Within Japan's literary establishment, _jun-bungaku_ often means the 'I' novel, which focuses on the author's private experiences and feelings. Representative writers of _jun-bungaku_ include Yukio Mishima and Osamu Dazai." (Okada)] [literally, "pure literature"], literature was about becoming unacceptable. After _[Evangelion](!W "Neon Genesis Evangelion (TV)")_^[_Evangelion_, commonly known as _Eva_, is shorthand for the TV anime series _Neon Genesis Evangelion_ (_Shin-seiki Evangerion_, or "New Century Evangelion"), first broadcast in 1995--96, and its cinematization (1997), both created by the anime studio [Gainax](!W). See pl. 33.] came out as a TV anime series in 1995, everybody fell in [pg179] ![Figure top right: _Masked Rider_ 1971--1973 TV anime [??? --Editor] series](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/kamenrider.jpg) ![Caption bottom right: _Five Rangers_ 1975 _Tokusatsu_ film](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/five-rangers.jpg) love with _dame_. Until then, literature was relevant only within the realm of pure literature. Some rock musicians may have liked it a bit. But, thanks to _Evangelion_, ordinary people, young people enthusiastically embraced it. _Eva_ made it OK for the main character to be pathetic. By the standards of conventional anime, it's inconceivable that _Eva_'s main character doesn't try harder. But that's precisely what makes him so appealing today. While literature used to shock and surprise us in the past, anime shocks and surprises us today. A _dame_-orientation is not a new thing; in the old days, a _dame_-orientation was called literature. **KM**: Don't you think _Gundam_ got a similar reception? The main character was a computer geek. **TO**: In _Gundam_, one thrust of the story was the main character's desire to be recognized by others. So _Gundam_ and _Eva_ are completely different. **KM**: As I said before, the 1980s-era fascination with the apocalyptic was shattered by Aum. I think _moe_ emerged as an alternative, to fill the void. **TO**: I see. To me, _Eva_ was all about "Since I can't do anything about changing the world, I will do something about myself." Don't you think "robot anime"^["Robot anime" is a popular genre of anime that features powerful or otherwise extraordinary robots as protagonists or the central theme of the story. The very first robot anime was _[Astro Boy](!W)_ (_Tetsuwan Atom_), which was also the first anime TV series in Japan, broadcast in 1963. In recent years, robot anime has become "giant robot anime", the most representative example of which is _Mobile Suit Gundam_ (see pl. 30).] is all about "trying to change the world"? Morikawa-san, you talked about the apocalyptic. One step before that is "social reform" (_yo-naoshi_). One of the key concepts for understanding _otaku_ is "a child's sense of justice". The reason grown-ups are enthusiastic about _[Kamen Rider](!W)_^[_Masked Rider_ is a TV special-effects series, first broadcast in 1971--73. The heroics of the title characters, who are "altered humans" battling against the evil organization Shocker, have been perpetuated by spin-off Riders in subsequent series, which continue to this day,] and the "warrior team" genre (_sentai mono_)^[The "warrior team" genre, which originated in the special-effects TV series [_Himitsu sentai Gorenja_](!W "Himitsu Sentai Gorenger"), or "Secret Team of Five Rangers" (released in the U.S. as _[Mighty Morphin’ Power Rangers](!W)_), has enjoyed tremendous popularity in Japan since _Gorenja_ was first broadcast in 1975. The "team" concept, derived from the "double riders" scheme of _Masked Rider_, customarily allows the inclusion of one female fighter.] is because that basic sense of justice, which we abandoned in society long ago, is still meaningful in the world of these TV shows. Of course, there's also the terrific monster designs and _pan-chira_ [the fleeting display of girls' panties], but that's not enough to keep the boys interested. That basic sense of justice worked until _Eva_. But with _Eva_, it became clear that no one could save the world. And _Eva_ complicated the whole thing, raising issues such as "Maybe I should at least save myself" and "What's wrong with me, thinking only" [pg180] ![Figure top left: _She, the Ultimate Weapon_ 2002 (original TV broadcast) DVD of TV anime series (cover)](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/saikano.jpg) "about saving myself?" _Eva_ marked a turning point. Whatever we discuss today, we cannot avoid _Eva_. **KM**: After _Eva_, a genre called _sekai-kei_ [literally, "world-type"] emerged, and it's very popular now. In this genre, private feelings and emotions are directly linked to the fate of the world. **TO**: _[She, the Ultimate Weapon](!W)_^[_She, the Ultimate Weapon_ (_Saishu heiki kanojo_) originated in 2000 as a serialized manga by Shin Takahashi (translation published as _The Last Love Song on This Little Planet_). It was made into a TV anime series in 2002, and adapted as a game in 2003.] is the definitive _sekai-kei_. **KM**: And _Eva_. **TO**: Reading just a couple volumes of _She, the Ultimate Weapon_ will give you a sense of the _sekai_-type sensibility. In the typical logic of _sekai-kei_, the same weight is assigned to one's private emotions and the end of the world. In _She_, the world comes to an end. The main character witnesses the annihilation of the world, which happens to be caused by his girlfriend. His love for her and his despair over the destroyed planet are expressed through the same emotion. But making a _sekai-kei_ ends artists' careers. **KM**: You mean, like [Hideaki Anno](!W),^[Hideaki Anno is a screenwriter and director whose best-known work is the TV anime series _Neon Genesis Evangelion_ and its cinematization (se pl. 33). After _Evangelion_, Anno shifted his interest from anime to live-action films, and in 1998 directed the feature film _[Love & Pop](!W)_, based on [Ryu Murakami's](!W "Ryu Murakami") novel; he created his first special-effects scenes in his 2004 film, _[Cutie Honey](!W "Cutie Honey (film)")_.] who created _Eva_? **TO**: That's right. Anno-san has been in rehabilitation ever since [by getting away from anime and working on live-action films]. ## By Way of Conclusion: _Otaku_ and Art **Takashi Murakami**: While listening to you, it dawned on me that _otaku_ is much like Pop in the art world. There are many kinds of Pop, each of which is generationally defined. The _otaku_ Okada-san believes in is comparable to the serious medium of "painting" in art, while the _otaku_ defined by Morikawa-san is akin to my work, as a "failed _otaku_". **Toshio Okada**: Right. Murakami-san, you marketed _shokugan_^[Contemporary _shokugan_ originated in _gangu gashi_ (literally, "toy candy"), first introduced in 1922, which were candies packaged with small toys and targeted at children. In 1999, the _shokugan_ boom was launched by Furuta's "Choco Egg", a chocolate shell containing elaborately detailed plastic animal and insect figures manufactured by Kaiyodo, which set the standard for things to come. The extremely high quality of today's _shokugan_ has made them objects of adult---and _otaku_---fascination, as demonstrated by Murakami's _shokugan_ series, _Superflat Museum_ (2003).] [literally, "food toys"] last year. I think the toy figures of _Weekly Dearest My Brother_ are far more _otaku_ than yours, precisely because you are a failed _otaku_. Their work is more creative, whereas your _shokugan_ are very commercial. If you ask me [pg181] ![Figure right bottom: _Takashi Murakami's Superflat Museum: Convenience Store Edition_ 2003 Plastic figures and figure assembly kits packaged with gum, brochures, and certificates.](/doc/anime/eva/little-boy/otaku-talk/murakami-figures.jpg) which is "art", I would say those of _Weekly Dearest My Brother_. But the problem is that your work is more recognized socially as art---which makes it so hard for me to understand art. **T. Murakami**: In today's discussion, a few things became clear: the huge gap between those who know _moe_ and those who don't, as Morikawa-san told us; the generational debate among _otaku_; and the three different positions we have---that is, I am in art; Okada-san, in _otaku_; and Morikawa-san, in _moe_. **Kaichiro Morikawa**: Okada-san, I don't know if it's a fair categorization, but generationally speaking, your _otaku_ experience was from a time when people respected _otaku_ for their achievements. I had the opposite experience, belonging to the generation that suffered _otaku_-bashing.^[In 1989, a landmark event turned _otaku_ into a household word: the serial murders of young girls by [Tsutomu Miyazaki](!W). When the ever-curious mass media discovered that the alleged murderer's room was filled with numerous volumes of manga and thousands of videotapes of anime and other genres of popular culture, the whole nation was stunned by his obsessive nature. The world _otaku_ was closely associated with Miyazaki's profile---a weirdo unable to form meaningful relationships with grown women or distinguish reality from fantasy. The mass media went on the attack against _otaku_, and children interested in anime and games were frequently harassed and ostracized at school.] In our discussion, I emphasized the unacceptability of _otaku_, and you said I was "completely wrong". I wonder if this reflects our contradictory experiences. **T. Okada**: For argument's sake, let's assume you define _otaku_ as the self-proclaimed fans of _gyaruge_^[_Gyaruge_ is an abbreviation of "gal games". It is a subcategory of _bishojo_ games (see note 22) that does not contain sexual content, and is thus available to people under eighteen. The most representative example is _[Tokimeki Memorial](!W)_.] and _bishojo_ figures, who are about thirty or younger today. If you say this group of people have such and such _dame_-orientation, I would have to agree. But I don't think _otaku_ are limited to this group. _Otaku_ encompass many diverse types. That's why I can't agree with you. And this brings me back to my initial statement, which is that I quit _otaku_ studies, because I thought that there were no more _otaku_. **TM**: We'll have to reconvene some other day to discuss more about the relationship between _otaku_ and art. Morikawa-san and Okada-san, thank you so much for today's discussion. (March 31, 2004) > The translator wishes to thank Toshio Okada, Kaichiro Morikawa, and Yoshiyuki Mashimo for their assistance in compiling the notes.