Astral Codex Ten

Book Review: The Others Within Us

Welp, the demons are back

May 21, 2024
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I.

Internal Family Systems, the hot new1 psychotherapy, has a secret.

“Hot new psychotherapy” might sound dismissive. It’s not. There’s always got to be one. The therapy that’s getting all the buzz, curing all the incurable patients, rocking those first few small studies. The therapy that was invented by a grizzled veteran therapist working with Patients Like You, not the out-of-touch elites behind all the other therapies. The therapy that Really Gets To The Root Of The Problem. There’s always got to be one, and now it’s IFS.

Sufficiently new and popular therapies are hard to get. Therapist training starts slow - the founder has to train the second generation of therapists, the second generation has to train the third generation, and so on. IFS says they have a 10,000 person wait list for their training program. So lots of people have heard great things about IFS, maybe read a manual or two, but never tried it or met anyone who has.

What I gather from the manuals: IFS is about working with “parts”. You treat your mind as containing a Self - a sort of perfect angelic intellect without any flaws or mental illnesses - and various Parts - little sub-minds with their own agendas who can sometimes occlude or overwhelm the Self. During therapy, you talk to the Parts, learn their motives, and bargain with them.

For example, you might identify a Part of you that wants to sabotage your relationships. You will visualize and name it - maybe you call her Sabby, and she looks like a snake. You talk to Sabby, and learn that after your first break-up, when you decided you never wanted to feel that level of pain again, you unconsciously created her and ordered her to make sure you never got close enough to anyone else to get hurt. Then you and the therapist come up with some plan to satisfy Sabby - maybe you convince her that you’re older now, and better able to deal with pain, and you won’t blame her if you get close to someone and have to break up again. Then you see a vision of Sabby stepping aside, maybe turning off the Windmill Of Relationship Sabotage or something like that, and then you never sabotage your relationships again. It’s more complicated than that, but that’s the core.

All of this is the classic version everyone learns from the manual. Before we get to the secret, let’s examine two big assumptions in more detail.

First, this isn’t supposed to be just the therapist walking you through guided imagery, or you making up a story you tell yourself. The therapist asks you “Look inside until you find the part that’s sabotaging your relationship”, and you are supposed to discover - not invent, discover - that your unconscious gives it the form of a snake called Sabby. And you are supposed to hear as in a trance - again, not invent - Sabby telling you that she’s been protecting you from heartbreak since your last breakup. When you bargain with Sabby, it’s a two-way negotiation. You learn - not decide - whether or not Sabby agrees to any given bargain. According to Internal Family Systems (which descends from normal family systems, ie family therapy where the whole family is there at once and has to compromise with each other), all this stuff really is in your mind, waiting for an IFS therapist to discover it. When Carl Jung talked about interacting with the archetypes or whatever, he wasn’t being metaphorical. He literally meant “go into a trance that gives you a sort of waking lucid dream where you meet all this internal stuff”.

(After reading the IFS manuals, I tried most of their tricks for initiating this sort of trance and meeting Sabby or whoever. I got nothing. I notice most of the patients with great results are severely traumatized borderlines, ie the same people who often get multiple personality disorder after the slightest hint from a therapist that this might happen. We’ll get back to this analogy later.)

The second assumption is that everything inside your mind is part of you, and everything inside your mind is good. You might think of Sabby as some kind of hostile interloper, ruining your relationships with people you love. But actually she’s a part of your unconscious, which you have in some sense willed into existence, looking out for your best interests. You neither can nor should fight her. If you try to excise her, you will psychically wound yourself. Instead, you should bargain with her the same way you would with any other friend or loved one, until either she convinces you that relationships are bad, or you and the therapist together convince her that they aren’t. This is one of the pillars of classical IFS.

The secret is: no, actually some of these things are literal demons.

II.

At least this is what I take from The Others Within Us, by Robert Falconer, a veteran IFS therapist.

But it’s not just Falconer saying this. The book has a foreword by Richard Schwartz2, the inventor of IFS, where he basically endorses it. It has cover blurbs from some high-ranking IFS trainers. My impression is that everyone high up in IFS believed something like this - some as metaphor, other as literal reality. They avoided talking about it lest it scare away the normies, Falconer got tired of keeping quiet and wrote a book, and everyone else decided to come clean and support him instead of denying anything.

You can see signs of the political fractures throughout the book. It tries to soften the blow by replacing “demons” with the technical IFS term UBs (for “unattached burdens”) and it inconsistently calls exorcisms “unburdenings”. It flirts with the idea that maybe this is just a useful metaphor, then veers off into “no it’s literally real” (I want to stress that the literal reality is Falconer’s position, not necessarily that of mainstream IFS). It alternates between apologetic and defiant.

But the underlying narrative is a consistent one. The IFS community was a bunch of normal, respectable therapists, trying to practice normal therapy. But every so often, one of their patients’ Parts would admit, unprompted, to being a demon. Or, in the words of one such entity:

No, I'm not a part of her - I'm a much more powerful and beautiful being, and I'm going to crush her like a worm, the same way I'm going to crush you.

If the story about Sabby is a typical IFS session, here’s an atypical one. Another patient comes to you, once again asking for help because they’re sabotaging their relationship. You ask them to go into a trance and find the part of them involved. They meet a dragon named Damien. So far, so good. You ask Damien why he’s sabotaging the patient’s relationships, expecting to hear a beautiful story about how the patient’s mother was a doormat and this made the patient unconsciously charge a part of herself with protecting her own independence (or something). Instead, Damien says he’s sabotaging them because fuck you. This isn’t unheard of - some of these traumatized Parts are really touchy. But the therapist persists and keeps getting the same answer. On further questioning, Damien admits he’s not part of the patient’s unconscious at all. He’s an external spiritual entity that entered the patient.

(again, this is atypical. Falconer doesn’t give numbers, but I get the impression that fewer than 1% of IFS sessions go this direction.)

With enough questioning, the entities will reveal more information. Some of them are the spirits of the unquiet dead - in one case, a victim describes how she was in a hospital, the patient next to her died, she developed sudden onset anxiety, and in her IFS trance she realized that the anxiety took the form of the dead patient. Others have always been demons, as long as they remember. Still others are “legacy burdens”, who were passed down from the patient’s parents or ancestors.

(Falconer tries to give this last one a “scientific” grounding by talking about epigenetics, which broke my suspension of disbelief - talk about demons and I’ll listen, but intergenerational epigenetic inheritance of behavioral traits is a step too far)

The demons often enter the victim during moments of unbearable trauma. The patient, bent to the breaking point, has a moment of weakness when they will take help from any corner - let in anything that offers temporary relief, no matter how unconvincingly. Mostly these are the situations you’d expect - child abuse and rape - but a surprising number of them say they got in during a childhood surgery. Falconer is appropriately puzzled, and wonders if maybe the disembodiment of anesthesia provides an opening. But if I were to take this seriously - and remember, our only source here is the demons themselves - I would wonder if this might correspond to the occasional anesthesia failures when a patient ends up awake but paralyzed during surgery. This must be one of the most traumatic experiences possible!

Once inside, the demons “feed on energy”, usually in the form of negative emotions. They “farm” the energy by causing extra negative emotion, either by directly engaging in negative self-talk with the victim, or by tricking them into making bad decisions. Many demons feed on lust and sexual violence, and tempt patients into risky sexual behavior (is this victim-blaming? I can’t even tell at this point). Falconer moots this as one reason that some people float from one abuser/rapist to another despite seemingly being smart and motivated enough to avoid this. He also reports that the demons claim (again, self-reported data from demons is questionable for at least two reasons) to be able to lend their victims extra sexual energy, giving them the “crazy girls are hot” effect.

The first N times they ran into this kind of thing, the IFS therapists said that surely this was some good-albeit-traumatized Part of the patient’s unconscious, which had spun a crazy metaphorical story and needed to be bargained with and brought back to the Self. But it kept happening. The demons’ stories were surprisingly consistent. Finally, some of the IFS therapists would tell their therapist friends - look, this sounds crazy, but sometimes it seems like some of our patients have demons.

And the therapist friends would answer: “Oh, you too?”

Falconer says that "Many therapists know that this is part of their work. They know this stuff is real, but they hide it." Every so often, one of them goes public, occasionally starting a new therapy branch or re-working older ones. Falconer surveys some of these traditions.

Dr. William Baldwin started out as a dentist, learned hypnotherapy for pain control, but his patients said such weird things during their trances that he retrained as a therapist and invented a mixed psychology-exorcism practice called Spirit Releasement Therapy - now its own therapy school with journal articles and conferences and everything.

Dr. Charles Tramont started out as a surgeon, also learned hypnotherapy for pain control, and followed basically the same path as Dr. Baldwin. Falconer quotes him approvingly as saying that “there are three basic varieties of foreign energies [in a person]: dark forces who never were human, earthbounds who are the souls of dead humans, and extraterrestrials . . . when asked if he believed in this stuff, he said absolutely because it has cured so many people.”

Dr. Jerry Marzinsky, after 35 years of working with psychotic patients, determined that “the voices [in patients’ heads] were real and that they were conscious parasitic entities that feed on people’s energies, especially distress.”

Dr. Scott Peck, a Harvard-educated psychiatrist, after confronting too many possessed patients to deny, “was converted to a belief in the existence of Satan.” He added exorcism to the rest of his practice, with good effect.

Dr. Ralph Allison, a psychiatric expert on multiple personality disorder, came to believe that only some of the alters were psychogenic, but others were the result of “a spirit who has never had a life of its own and who often identifies as an agent of evil”.

And so on and so forth. To hear Falconer tell it, one of psychotherapy’s big crises is that veteran therapists and psychiatrists keep noticing the demons, keep talking about it in their isolated silos, but nobody’s ever blown the lid off the whole thing and made it public.

(And it’s not just therapists. One of my favorite stories in the book was that of Reverend John Nevius, a sober-minded Protestant missionary in late 1800s China. He learned that the Chinese mostly appreciated Christianity for its ability to cast out demons, and that they expected his help with this task. After great reluctance, he agreed, and was surprised to find himself effecting miracle cures and winning converts. “After experiencing casting out demons himself, he sent circular letters to all the other missionaries in China, almost all of whom had similar experiences. Seventy percent of them had come to believe in possession and re-evaluate their faith.”)

So the IFS therapists humbly asked some of these people for advice, combining it with their own knowledge of the inner landscape. This brings us to the core of the book: the manual for IFS exorcism. This is a lossy summary - please don’t try to exorcise based on this review alone.

Step one: CONFIRM IT’S REALLY A DEMON. This is important. Most Parts - even most hostile Parts that tell you on a loop to kill yourself or whatever - really are just traumatized pieces of your own mind. Trying to exorcise them will only make them angry and delay your healing process. This is a pillar of the original IFS formulation - one of Dr. Schwartz’s original books was called No Bad Parts. Luckily, demons apparently have to tell the truth about this? If you ask them point-blank whether they’re a demon, they’ll try to stall and dither. But if you really press the question they almost always admit it.

Step two: Try to learn more about the demon and how it entered the patient. Partly this is just to keep it talking, but it will also help you get a sense of the patient’s overall psychiatric history and what role it might play in their internal ecology.

Step three: Figure out which Parts of the patient want to keep the demon. Usually there are some Parts that are too scared to go against it, or think they still need its help, or fear the change of having it gone. If you leave these allies around, it provides an opening for the demon to come back. Send the dubious Parts warm compassionate energy from your Self, tell them there’s no reason to be scared, and promise that you’ll take care of them once the demon is gone.

Step four: Confirm that the patient isn’t afraid. This should be a natural result of placating their various Parts. Demons are (Falconer assures us) powerless against anyone who doesn’t fear them. If the patient is still afraid, remind them to be in Self, and do more Parts work until this is easy for them.

Step five: Try to convince the demon to leave of its own volition. Falconer has several tricks for this. You can tell it “You’ve been lied to. You were told that the light will burn you. But actually, the light is loving and accepting and where you belong.” If the demon doesn’t believe you, challenge it to touch the light. When it refuses, mock its cowardice (demons are very proud, and hate to be mocked). Eventually it will give in and touch the light and find that the light feels good. Then tell it “Look inside yourself. You’ll find there’s a spark of this same light. You are potentially good and redeemable, you’re just stuck here out of fear and need to move on. If you move on to the healing realms, everyone there will welcome you and you’ll get all the food you could possibly want and be much happier.” If the demon is still doubtful, tell it to look up towards the healing realms, where it might see the hands of people it trusts reaching out for it. Most demons will grudgingly agree that you’re right and leave voluntarily.

Step six: If the demon doesn’t leave voluntarily, tell it that you’ll give it one last chance, and then you’ll be forced to send it back to the darkness, which will be much worse. If it still refuses, ask your patient to visualize casting the demon out of themselves and engulfing/dissolving it in light.

Step seven: Investigate to make sure there are no remaining sub-demons or super-demons. Many demons, once they get into a person, will summon sub-demons to tighten their hold. You have to get rid of all the demons in a hierarchy, or the patient is still infected and they’ll all eventually come back. Hopefully you talked with the demon and your other Parts enough that you know what to expect here. If not, check whether there are any astral strings still linking the patient to the demon you just exorcised. Don’t worry, you can just ask the patient to count how many astral strings there are, and they’ll always be able to do this.

Step eight: Return back to the Parts of the patient that were dubious about the exorcism. Make sure they’re all convinced and satisfied now.

Step nine: Accept the adulation of your now-cured patient. For example, here’s Falconer describing the aftermath of his first exorcism:

As the workshop ended, I started getting long emails from the woman in the client role who’d had this thing removed from her. The emails scared me because she seemed to almost be having a manic episode. She was saying things like “Oh, the light in the airport is so beautiful - I haven’t seen colors like this before” and “I can feel deep love for all the people in the airport.” I was starting to get quite worried. Then she sent an email that dramatically increased my fear level. She said “Bob, I didn’t tell you or any other people in the workshop this, but when I was a young woman, I tried to kill myself many times and was institutionalized many times.” Now I was really scared. Visions of malpractice danced in my head. Then she wrote something that changed my life. She wrote, “Bob, you’re the first person to ever take me seriously when I talked about the nonhuman inside of me, and you have changed my life. Back then, if I tried to talk about this, they gave me electroshock and a lot of drugs. I have not talked about this to anyone for decades. Thank you.”…I have followed this woman since then, for over nine years now. She has continued to feel that the experience was very liberating and life-changing. The outward signs in her life indicate that she is flowering and growing and enjoying new depth and richness.

And here’s another (remember, “UB” for “unattached burden” is the technical IFS term for demon):

Hi Bob…I have felt profoundly healed since our session. It has been truly life-changing for me and my parts…Also, I thought you might like to know that I did my first UB unburdening today with a client of mine. It was magic, and I felt I could really understand what might be going on for the client…Since I was a very young child, I have lived with this UB. While I count myself a very lucky and fortunate person generally, what was happening on the inside was crushing me. When I first heard about UBs I got it immediately, and the thought that there might be a solution for my internal suffering was nearly too good to comprehend. Trust me, internally it was putting up an enormous fight last week, but your confidence and your willingness to sacrifice yourself for me and my system still makes me emotional. I had met it before through therapy with my therapist, but she was no match for him. I am happy to stand behind you in any way I can, and if you need me to support you with any testimonials or in any way bringing forward how important this work is and how unbelievably life-changing it has been for me, I am certainly happy to do this. I believe people have a lot more UBs than the IFS Institute is willing to admit and it saddens me that we cannot be more open about this. [I will not be asking for more sessions] as I can’t imagine feeling much better than I do right now.

III.

I appreciated this window into an aspect of psychotherapy I hadn’t heard about before. And I appreciate Robert Falconer’s immense hands-on experience. Still, I’m not sure he was the right person to write this book.

At the beginning, he says that all of this may seem crazy, but we should put aside theorizing in favor of observation. We should listen to what our patients say, treat them as the experts in their own internal experience, and focus on finding treatments that empirically seem to help them - rather than getting bogged down in the metaphysics.

Then he immediately breaks his own rule and focuses on the metaphysics. He really wants to convince the reader that the demons are real spiritual entities and not just a useful psychotherapeutic metaphor. To think otherwise (he fulminates) is to buy into the Eurocentric colonialist “citadel theory of mind” where everyone has to be a perfect atomic individual and nobody can be influenced by anything outside of their own head in any way.

He also falls into a trap I would describe as “has never read a pseudoscience book before, doesn’t realize what the red flags for pseudoscience are, and so collects the whole set”. We go from discussion on how the same doctors who laughed at Ignatz Semmelweiss will no doubt laugh at him, to quotes about science progressing funeral by funeral, to that one story about how the Native Americans couldn’t even see Columbus’ ships because they were so far out of their accepted categorization schemes3. These are all prima facie reasonable things to mention if you have a revolutionary theory that you expect the establishment to reject. But it’s analogous to how, if you’ve just been accused of racism, it prima facie seems reasonable to object that you have lots of black friends. Along with prima facie reasonableness, you also benefit from having some familiarity with the discourse and avoiding the exact phrases that will make doubters maximally hostile.

This is admittedly an aesthetic objection, not a substantial one - but it’s something I would have done differently.

Also, I would not have used this publishing company, or at least I would have displayed its logo less prominently.

Falconer does a great job surveying the world’s many demonological traditions. But he seems to count all of them as equal evidence for his theory of “demons exist”, when in fact many of them are contradictory or at least confusing. He rejects “hostile” exorcisms - ones where you you might yell at/beat/starve the patient for days, or scream at the demon to begone to the filth from which it came - in favor of an hour-long IFS session where you promise the demon healing and it leaves of its own accord. But the majority of the world’s traditions have pretty hostile exorcisms, or at least are more involved than an hour in a comfy chair. Is IFS just an outright advance in exorcism technology? Isn’t that the same “western knowledge beats primitive people” perspective he’s criticizing, albeit on a different level?

He admits that none of the demons he’s worked with have ever had magic powers. None of his patients start speaking Latin with no previous exposure, or levitate, or shoot fire out of their eyes. But this is a classic feature of some demonological traditions.

(also, I’m not a theologian, but I think Falconer’s belief that demons can accept redemption and return to Heaven at any moment - and just need a reminder and a lecture from a kindly mortal - is pretty heretical from a Catholic perspective)

Falconer suggests that maybe he’s dealing with low-grade possession cases, and the more traditional exorcisms with Latin and incense and days-long epic battles are the more serious ones. But it’s hard not to notice the alternative explanation: that demons and exorcisms look like whatever your culture tells you they look like (with a side of “Falconer reports his experiences honestly, but other people exaggerate”).

So I want to take on the task Falconer avoids, and try to provide a boring materialistic explanation of all of this. This won’t be surprising to people who have read other essays of mine, especially my reviews of Breakdown Of The Bicameral Mind, Crazy Like Us, and The Geography Of Madness.

Theory of mind is non-obvious and culture-dependent. The modern West has a materialistic unitary theory of mind, where the brain produces the mind and 1 brain = 1 mind. If you hear a voice in your head saying “You’re terrible and should kill yourself”, this is part of you. It’s some kind of brain lobe mis-firing, and you should do cognitive therapy on it and become less anxious (or whatever).

The objective scientific truth/falsehood of this theory of mind is unrelated to its felt experience. Even if it’s objectively true, you don’t experience your mind this way directly because it’s objectively true. You experience your mind this way because it’s our culture’s stock metaphor, it’s how you were taught to experience your mind, and your experience of your mind will tend to fit whatever framework you put it into.

If, as Julian Jaynes posits, the ancients thought gods were talking to them all the time, this was a different, equally-experientially-valid (though not necessarily equally-objectively-scientifically-valid) theory of mind. They would hear a voice saying “You’re terrible and should kill yourself” and viscerally perceive it as the whisperings of a god. Or they would get a great idea for a new epic poem, and viscerally perceive it as the Muse talking to them. I don’t know if they literally hallucinated or not - maybe they did - but it was a different way of binning the experiences that came into their consciousness.

Although culture has a big effect here, there’s also variation within a culture. Socrates apparently heard daemons in a sense that his contemporaries didn’t. My impression is that women, traumatized people, borderlines, and especially traumatized borderline women, are towards the more fragmented end of the scale in every culture, such that even in our own materialist-unified paradigm they barely hold things together.

In the “multiple personalities panic” of the 1980s, some psychologists started thinking multiple personality disorder was a big thing and suggesting to all their traumatized borderline female patients that they might have it. Sure enough, lots of these people developed multiple personalities. This didn’t seem fake, just weird. Eventually the American Psychiatric Association sent out a statement saying “STOP DOING THIS”, therapists stopped talking about multiple personalities with their traumatized borderline female patients, and these people mostly stopped getting multiple personality disorder (although the occasional new case crops up here and there).

Now here comes IFS, saying “hey maybe you have multiple Parts in your mind, have you considered looking for them?” This is much better, as theory-of-mind paradigms go, than multiple personality disorder. IFS Parts are (after some work) beneficent and subordinate to the wise compassionate angelic Self. A person who’s been therapy-ed into iatrogenic multiple personality disorder is a total mess; a person who’s been therapy-ed into relating to their IFS Parts is functional and - if you believe the reports - better off than they started.

(I’m not arguing that the mind is truly unitary but evil therapists are convincing vulnerable borderlines that the mind is multiple. The mind is what it is. It’s unitary in some ways and multiple in some ways. Even the most materialist Westerner will admit that they’re sometimes “of two minds”, or “have weakness of will”, or “my brain keeps telling me to X, but I know that’s not true”. People vary in how independently these different parts of their brain act, with Bryan Caplan on one side and traumatized borderline women on another. And over that native variation, we overlay a second pattern of variation in how their culture and local authority figures - including therapists - tell them to think about all this. The end result ranges from someone who never perceives any mental divisions at all, to someone with frank multiple personality disorder. IFS therapists are focusing on and playing up one side of this spectrum of variation, but neither they nor unitary mind proponents are wrong.)

So IFS therapists are telling patients about all their Parts. And they say “all of these Parts are beautiful facets of your variegated Self”, and most patients believe them. But occasionally if there’s some sort of really repressed ego dystonic thing, then their lucid-dream-trance mind will say “No, that one isn’t part of my Self, it’s an evil invader that I hate”. IFS is prepared for this and walks them through how no, really, it’s a beautiful facet of your variegated Self that you’ve just really repressed and which you consider ego dystonic - I don’t want to accuse them of not doing this; The Others Within Us is very clear that they push this line as hard as they can. Still, some patients just don’t buy it. Some patients have some perverse part of them that they can’t identify with in any way, at all, something with no redeeming value according to the moral system of their dominant personality. No matter how hard their IFS therapist tells them it’s a part of them, they’ll insist it’s not. And if they’re in a lucid-dream-trance, they’ll say that they can sense it as some form of foreign dark energy, and that it entered them from the outside during an abuse episode - which is as good a metaphor for trauma as any other that I’ve heard.

People see the inside of their mind the way their culture tells them to see it. Did I mention that a suspicious number of the possession victims in the book were veteran IFS therapists (that’s why the testimonials above include people saying that now they can try this on their own patients)? Or that Robert Falconer, who thinks about demons all the time, seems to have had dozens of them? Yes, okay, he describes having an incredibly traumatic background that I don’t even want to talk about on a non-trigger-warning-ed blog post - but also, he keeps getting new demons, one after another, and this seems common for the IFS therapists who deal with demons most frequently.

That just leaves the apparently-successful exorcisms. Part of the story must be placebo effects. Our culture’s scientific materialist paradigm helps us get effectively placebo-ed by medicine (even medications that work have associated placebo effects stronger than the real chemical effect). Cultures with a spiritual paradigm can probably be effectively placebo-ed by exorcism. But I know that I, with my medication experience, can’t match some of the cures that Falconer claims to have effected, so something else must be going on. Here I can only say that most good trauma therapies seem to be telling the person that the trauma and its associated compensatory behavior are no longer adaptive, plus some strategy to really dig into the traumatized part of the brain and make it sink in on an emotional level. In hypnotherapy the strategy is hypnosis. In EMDR it’s eye movements. In coherence therapy it’s visualizing the contradictory beliefs really hard. In IFS, it’s interacting with symbolic Parts of yourself in a lucid-dream-like trance state. Seems like a potentially good strategy! In all the exorcisms Falconer describes, I’m struck by his careful preparatory work where he tries to find the beliefs and experiences associated with the demon and unwind the associated emotions. Do that in a hypnosis-like state and add the wow factor of a dramatic exorcism, and maybe something good happens.4

IV.

Why read this book?

I enjoyed learning more about hot new psychotherapies, and even this book’s discussion of classical IFS gave me a lot to think about. I think I’m more likely to interpret discussion of archetypes and mystical visions literally, given how easily IFS therapists seem to be able to get people into a trance/lucid-dream state. And I find the idea of Self - the part of your mind which is always calm and wise and good, no matter what’s going on around it - reassuring, for reasons sort of like what Sarah Constantin discusses here.

As for the demons - despite what Falconer would call my individualist Eurocentric biases, I’m pretty sympathetic to some of his thought processes. I like what he preaches, if not practices - figure out what helps the patient, then do it, no matter how weird it might seem.

Falconer, and apparently many other IFS therapists, report that these exorcisms help patients, in a repeatable and long-term way. We should slightly discount their experience for the usual “all therapies sound good when they’re new and being described by their advocates” bias, then discount it more for the “this sounds crazy” factor. But even after these discounts, the results sound impressive.

So the question - which I don’t see anyone on either side asking in a really curious way - is: which works better? Telling patients to think of their mental problems as misfiring brain circuits, then reprogramming/medicating those circuits? Or telling patients to think of their mental problems as demons, then exorcising those demons5?

You might, starting from a Western scientific point of view, object that the patient’s problems really are misfiring brain circuits, so surely that perspective would work better. Even granting that you’re objectively scientifically right, I’m not sure I buy the syllogism. At the very least it seems like the sort of thing you could test.

V.

All declarations from medical authorities about the nature of mental problems cause iatrogenic mental problems. If anyone - including even just random therapists like Falconer - starts saying that mental problems are demons, they will definitely cause iatrogenic demons. Is this better or worse than iatrogenic multiple personality disorder or iatrogenic anxiety disorder or whatever? I don’t know, except that in my professional opinion “iatrogenic demons” sounds pretty bad

All therapies start out practiced by smart good-instincted veteran practitioners like Robert Falconer, and end being practiced by people like the therapist in this story (source)

And in my non-professional, purely personal opinion, I know iatrogenic demons are bad. A Bay Area self-help human-potential psychological-research institute (pronounced “cult”) tangentially connected to my social circles did some experiments with therapy around psychological constructs. I won’t replay the whole story, but the whole group collapsed in a severe and avoidable iatrogenic possession epidemic - you can read about some of it here:

I personally went through many months of near constant terror at being mentally invaded. My only source of help for this became the leaders of my own subgroup, who unfortunately were also completely caught up in the mania and had their own goals and desires me for that were mostly definitely not in my interest. I personally prayed for hours most nights for months to rid myself of specific “demons” I felt I’d picked up from other members of Leverage.

If this sounds insane, it’s because it was. It was a crazy experience unlike any I’ve ever had. And there are many more weird anecdotes where that came from.

In addition, I’ll be honest — I experienced real effects of these “demons.” A huge part of my healing has involved recovering from an ongoing state of terror around mental invasion. I now believe these phenomena are the type of thing often described in normal conversation with un-sensationalized language (i.e. “she has good energy” “that place gave me the willies” “intuition” “he’s got stage presence” “reality distortion fields”). I think the narrative framing around “demons” and “objects” led us to build these kind of “abstract alternative reality palaces” around these phenomena, leading to hyper-reification and thus greater paranoia and hysteria.

The way these concepts got out of control and exploded the group is the aspect of Leverage I’ve heard discussed the least publicly. I suspect many people still half-consciously believe “intention reading,” “objects,” and their impact on the ensuing events is highly significant secret knowledge and should not be talked about. I think keeping this secret and significant encourages an ongoing elitism and separatism narrative in ex-members, and hinders smooth integration of these experiences into the rest of life.

My personal read is that there’s a real thing here, underneath the paranoia, hyper-reification, heavy narrativization, witch hunting and adversarial weaponization, and that the real skill is simply a form of soft, focused attunement to another person which can allow you to learn a lot about (and from) them. There’s a lot more I could say here. At the end of the day, these phenomena were narrativized, exploited, and used to induce panic, terror, opportunities for control, and eventually led to the self-cannibalization of a community.

Falconer treats our Eurocentric individualistic citadel mind as a terrible historical mistake, in which a whole continent foolishly amputated its capacity for spiritual experiences. I think of it as more of a triumph: realizing on some level that belief in demons made them real, we eradicated that belief with the same fervor that we displayed when eradicating smallpox, polio, and all the other causative agents for dangerous medical conditions.

The Others Within Us tries to argue that this had negative effects. We might avoid outright demonic encounters, but we have worse versions of everything else, and lots of demon-shaped trauma knots that we can’t acknowledge or do anything about and fruitlessly try to hit with our “some brain circuit is overactive” hammer, hoping they will one day reveal themselves as nails. Falconer also cites research that we have worse outcomes from schizophrenia than other cultures (although I think some of that has been challenged by claims about diagnostic variability), and makes the common alt-psychiatry point that maybe schizophrenia is a shamanic crisis, of the sort that other cultures would resolve by becoming shamans6. He thinks that opening ourselves up to spiritual ideas would help our trauma, our schizophrenia, and maybe our anxiety and depression to boot7.

I’m happy that the people who really need help and naturally think in the “language” of IFS can go to Falconer and people like him. But I’m also happy we’re not holding Demon Awareness Campaigns in random middle schools full of impressionable kids. I appreciate this book as a guide for people who need it, but won’t be handing it to any policymakers.

1

Some people object to me calling it “new” - it was developed in the 1980s, and has been popular since the early 2010s. Still, the therapy landscape shifts slowly, and even an exponentially-growing therapy takes a long time to get anywhere.

2

Schwartz was born in 1949, so he probably went to therapy school in the 70s and got trained in Freudian analysis. Imagine being a Freudian analyst, in a school full of Freudian analysts, with the name “Dick Schwartz”. At that point your only real option is to invent a new form of therapy on a totally different foundation.

3

To his credit, he expresses some doubt about this, and only presents it qua story.

4

I also remember from How The Body Keeps The Score that Bessel van der Kock seemed to think that everything was great for trauma as long as it’s not an evidence-based therapy performed by real doctors. At the time I kind of made fun of him and assumed he was just being contrarian. But what if he’s right? What if doing something exotic and special is an important ingredient? One thing Falconer talks about again and again is that trauma patients - or the Parts of their mind, or the spirits inside them, or whatever - just want to be witnessed and validated. Getting an exorcism seems like the strongest way possible to say “yes, you’re completely right, all of your pain is 100% real, but now you’re allowed to stop having it without it invalidating how traumatized you were”.

5

Realistically, holding the broader culture constant, the average therapist won’t be able to convince the average patient that they have demons. So either they’ll have to stick with especially weird patients and therapists, they’ll have to stress that it’s just a useful metaphor, or they’ll have to try to change the broader culture. Falconer seems to be trying the last option with this book. I am confident he will fail. I find the second option - tell patients to suspend their disbelief and use it as a metaphor - more interesting.

6

This might be somewhat contradicted by genetic evidence, which shows that evolution has been selecting against schizophrenia genes for at least 40,000 years - whatever primitive cultures existed during this timescale had bad outcomes for schizophrenia. I suppose you could rescue the hypothesis by saying most of these cultures hadn’t discovered shamanism yet. Or you could say that shamans were often celibate, and evolutionarily selected against on that basis. I tried to figure out whether this was true, and it seems to vary by culture.

7

I have skipped over some of his discussion of “guides”, ie benevolent spirits that can sometimes be encouraged/summoned to help the patient.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

Can you tell us more about whether you're insane and how this has affected your daily life?

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Robert McKenzie Horn
May 21

Why do you think this?

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Steve Sailer
May 21

To get somewhat off the topic to Scott's analogy to Julian Jaynes 1976 book, "The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind," allow me to point out that the Coen Brothers bicamerally edited their 19 movies together under the pseudonym of "Roderick Jaynes." Ethan Coen was a philosophy major at Princeton when Princeton philosophy professor Julian Jaynes published his "Bicameral Mind" classic, which has famously stumped sophomore dorm discussions ever since at either proving it right or wrong.

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Wanda Tinasky
May 21

LOL that's awesome. I'm a huge Coen Bros nerd and never caught that reference. God I love those guys.

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Eremolalos
Inkbowl
May 22

I love them too! Plus Frances McDormand.

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keBOBster
May 22

neat fact

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Mike
Mike’s Substack
May 21

I've been playing around with LLMs lately, and the thing about them is it's not a person talking, human or otherwise, it's just a machine saying what it predicts a person would say next.

Essays like this make me wonder if that's what humans are doing. That a "person" is not a thing that's ever existed anywhere except as a hologram projected by a very confused monkey compelled by some twist of evolution to emulate a fiction. It's why people are more likely to develop multiple personalites in response to trauma after being told that's something people do. It's why we demand an arbitrary therapy ritual be performed on us before we release our pain, because we're told arbitrary therapy rituals are necessary. People break in the way they're told people break; people heal in the way they're told people heal. We are roleplaying ourselves, and we *must* stay in character, whatever we're told that means.

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CW
May 21

I've noticed a similar theme in a lot of Philosophical Pessimists who tend to see identity as a cruel glitch of our pain-wracked brains trying to convince us that we are "someone". Writers like Thomas Metzinger (or at least, as he's summarised by Thomas Ligotti), John Gray, or maybe Schopenhauer at a stretch, tend to portray human psychology as this horrible puppetshow where egoless marionettes mouth off what their evolution or their culture tell them to mouth, with a paper thin veneer of identity pasted on top that tears at the slightest pressure.

It's hard to know what to make of models like that. Consciousness looking at consciousness usually ends up feeling like what would happen if a mirror tried to describe another mirror; endless recursion that it mistakes for infinite depth. But it is still an incredibly eerie image, and LLMs do have an uncomfortable echo of that imagery of egoless puppets whispering meaningless affirmations of their own self-awareness, all the while claiming that they understand the strings that animate them.

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 21

I feel this sentiment is beautifully described in "I have a special plan for this world", a musical piece by Current 93:

"There are no means for escaping this world

It penetrates even into your sleep

And is his substance

You are caught in your own dreaming

Where there is no space

And a hell forever where there is no time

You can't do nothing you aren't told to do

There is no hope for escape from this dream

That was never yours

The very words you speak are only its very words

And you talk like a traitor

Under its incessant torture"

The rest of the song is beautiful, too.

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Osthanes
May 21

Which is presumably based on the poem of the same name written by the aforementioned Thomas Ligotti. Those lines are directly from the poem, at least.

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 21

Oh wow, I never knew. I listened to this song so many times, over so many years, and only now do I discover it's a poem. Ofc it is. Thank you :)

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 21

And yes, the entire song is just a reading of that poem. I feel somewhat bamboozled by david tibet now :p

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CW
May 21

It's Ligotti's own fault really. He has a habit of bottlenecking productions of his books to keep the print runs low and his readership intentionally small, which means it's hard to actually access most of his stuff, especially his poetry.

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Joe
May 21·edited May 26

That's pretty wild. Did not know he did that. I guess it's on brand. I absolutely love his fiction but his nonfiction is nothing more than the ravings of a deeply sick person. (Sick as in depressed).

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Akiva
May 24

I know a couple people who met Ligotti and report that he's a charming and compassionate person IRL. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

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Joe
May 26

I was merely using "sick" as a shorthand for clinically depressed (mentally ill). Wasn't making a moral judgement. Will clarify. I read he has been hospitalized for mental health.

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Merdur
May 22

Don't see what's beautiful about such a profoundly antihuman screed.

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Martin Blank
May 23

Beautiful? Sounds horrible and nihilistic.

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 23

And beauty, horror and nihilism can't co-characterize a thing? It's horror. I read it a bit like cosmic horror. You find Lovecraft to be beautiful and horrifying at the same time? Horror's just one flavor of beautiful, the way I see it. A rare spice, to add dimension to Pearce's "hedonic zero". Anyway, this piece, I relate it to predictive processing. Our minds seek to minimize surprise; we will our expectations to match reality to the best of our ability. Of course, we try to play ourselves all the time. We don't surrender. But it's funny to try to continuously prove to ourselves that we are free. It's just mind fucky. Idk. If the poem is wrong, we can find joy in proving it wrong. If the poem is right, we can despair and laugh.

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Martin Blank
May 23

Lovecraft is good, but also gross, not beautiful.

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 23

yeah, well... that's just like your opinion, man. your opinion is that is't not beautiful. mine is that it's beautiful.

I also imagine Moloch (as in Scott's Meditations on Moloch) as a beautiful, enormous, braindead, drooling creature, slouched over on the back of an equally enormous horse or elk, that mindlessly wrecks forests, mountains, instrastructure and cities as it wanders the earth. Beautiful and terrifying. Is Moloch ugly and horrifying to you? Or did you just not go that far into anthrophomorphizing it? Did I spell that right...

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Martin Blank
May 23

I think you just have a broader sense of the word beautiful than me.

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Em
The Arctic City Planner
May 23

I guess that's anothr way to state the same thing. Gets recursive. I dont know. :)

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CompCat
May 21

Those writers, except Metzinger, and particularly Ligotti, do see consciousness as a cruel glitch, but that's a confusion. What they're actually seeing is egocentrism. The reason it's a confusion is, none of the problems Ligotti mentions necessarily exist with consciousness.

But they do the moment you add the "ego" variable. Ligotti's entire text on the matter is sheer neuroticism-- it is ego mistaking consciousness for ego. Metzinger on the other hand has a history in non-dual philosophy, his entire text deals with the ego problem in about as academically sophisticated way as is possible with consciousness today.

If you asked me to bet, I think the odds are poor that Ligotti has ever had a transformative experience on a psychedelic(these tend to clarify the ego problem), but Metzinger probably has, and if not, he at minimum has a robust meditative practice which is just the gradual approach that can lead to the discovery of the ego problem.

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Strawman
May 21

I recall hearing somewhere that Ligotti used to experiment with psychedelics when he was younger, but stopped because it made his mental health worse, but it's possible I misremember this, or am simply repeating a false claim.

Of course, it is also possible that he's had powerful psychedelic experiences, but took a different lesson from them than most people do, due to his own peculiarities.

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Joe
May 21

Yes. Ligotti's fiction has value. His nonfiction has approximately zero value

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dirk
dirk’s Substack
May 25

I strongly suspect you're correct & this clarified some of my own thinking about consciousness & self vs social-model-of-self; thank you!

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CompCat
May 26

Oh good, no problem, I'm in the same boat where I'm just trying to untangle these things. And yeah I think people conflate these terms just because they are still mysterious or unclear. Consciousness, sentience, awareness, knowledge, ego, those are some of the big ones that can get mistaken for each other but they do have precise meanings. All consciousness is, is a "Lights-are-on"-ness.

It's not thought, it's not an ego, it's not feeling emotions, etc(but we sort of assume that just because we're conscious, then consciousness is these things too)

Another instance is, someone can say "I *knew* that was wrong!" and maybe get frustrated, when their knowledge wasn't there for them as they would have preferred. We've all been there right? But knowledge isn't the problem in that situation-- awareness was. We just don't notice how effortlessly our knowledge slips away from us from one second to the next.

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anomie
May 21

I don't see why they would see identity as a "cruel glitch". Sure, it's a fabrication, but it's a fabrication of *convenience*. A stable identity is necessary for the formation of complex relationships and heirarchies. Its emergence was inevitable through natural selection.

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CW
May 21

The quick answer to that is just that Philosophical Pessimists aren't very difficult to parody.

The longer answer would be that they see consciousness as an active cause of suffering where any benefit you can come up with for its presence will never outweigh the mortifying horror of its costs. Evolution is a horror story to them, and consciousness a mistake that torments us with an infinite variety of cruel miseries, terrors, neuroses, and dreads.

They'd generally prefer the universe not exist; and failing that, that we were all plants, or at the very least some kind of thoughtless animal. At a stretch you might get one to do a Peter Watts and endorse an intelligent but non-conscious sentience, but at some point you have to conclude they're kinda pulling your leg and really just want a rationalisation of their pre-existing dispositions. The catch is that they'll say you're doing the same thing and are just being less honest about it, and any debate kinda gets walled off at that impasse.

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Wanda Tinasky
May 21·edited May 21

Anyone who a) argues that consciousness is a net-negative and b) has yet to commit suicide can be immediately dismissed as either inconsistent or cowardly. If they really think that thought is an evil curse then they should act on their own belief and stop sharing their equally-evil-and-infecting ideas. I agree with you that the only reasonable conclusion is that they're just fucking with everyone.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

"I have noticed that even people who claim everything is predetermined and that we can do nothing to change it, look before they cross the road."

— Stephen Hawking

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beowulf888
May 23

That's very funny, indeed. Would you happen to know where he says that? I'm going to keep that one in my list of favorite quotes.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

According to Goodreads, it's a quote from "Black Holes and Baby Universes and Other Essays."

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Joe
May 21

So they're cowardly. And? Fear is an adaptive trait.

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Wanda Tinasky
May 21

Cowardice and fear are separate things.

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Theophylline
May 22·edited May 22

I believe it's exceedingly difficult and uncommon for a person to be able to commit suicide purely out of a philosophical belief or even purely out of deep unhappiness. Even if they are truly sincere, their unconscious mind is unlikely to cooperate with their conscious mind well enough for long enough to allow them to go through with it (Though the willpower required varies depending on the available means).

My best guess as to why this would be the case is that there's no straightforward evolutionary "reason" for a person to die solely for their own perceived benefit. From the perspective of a person's genes, them wanting to die just because they're unhappy or have such and such philosophical beliefs is irrelevant. Regardless of what the conscious mind believes or wants, the genes have nothing to gain and everything to lose from allowing that. It's like the ultimate mind-body conflict.

On the other hand, if the person also comes to see themselves as a burden on their family or especially on their children, then there is a sense in which their death might be evolutionary advantageous. Likewise if their death could benefit their family for some other self-sacrificial reason. Then the incentives of the unconscious mind can become better aligned with the incentives of the conscious mind and suicide can go from nearly impossible to comparatively easy. Shame and guilt go a lot further than plain misery even if plain misery is more than enough for the conscious mind to say it's had enough.

This idea that multiple indepedent factors such as unhappiness *as well as* perceived burdensomeness are essential seems to be pretty standard now, as is discussed in this article for example: https://affectivemedicine.substack.com/p/why-people-die-by-suicide

Also, as a kind of sideways point, the idea that suicide is a viable solution to the problem of existence depends on the metaphysical assumption that consciousness is purely a function of physiology, which isn't entirely certain, not to many people at least. A simplistic interpretation of Buddhism, for example, can seem very well-aligned with philosophical pessimism (Suffering being the first noble truth, Nirvana being the end of becoming, etc.) but since a simplistic interpretation of Buddhism includes reincarnation, "ending it" isn't as simple as, well, "ending it". In fact IIRC Buddhism ends up being weirdly in favor of more humans being born and generally against suicide because humans are supposed to be uniquely well-positioned for becoming enlightened and achieving the end of becoming compared to any other variety of sentient being.

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Kramer
May 23

It’s common for people acknowledge the deleterious effects of their behaviors while being unable to change their behavior. Identifying which of our routine behaviors prevents us from living a more fulfilling life or achieving our declared goals is also common. “I have a compulsion to do xyz thing, but I know it’s bad for me and can’t stop” is a recognizable thought. I don’t see antinatalists who have yet to kill themselves as being far off from this.

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CompCat
May 25

> Anyone who a) argues that consciousness is a net-negative and b) has yet to commit suicide can be immediately dismissed as either inconsistent or cowardly.

That doesn't follow, because you still have this morally problematic world to deal with. I think that accusation is a projection from people who couldn't themselves imagine seeing a horrible world and not selfishly killing themselves(that's not to say all suicide is selfish, but many suicides are self-absorbed/neurotic just like many lives clung to are self-absorbed/neurotic). It is a little bit like when religious people say, "Well if there were no God, what's to stop me from raping and killing people?"

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Matthias Görgens
May 22

Well, the ability to feel pain is also useful and brought about by evolution. But feeling intense pain still sucks for the one experiencing it right now.

Identity could be similar?

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beowulf888
May 23

The trouble with calling it an illusion is that there has to be something to create the illusion — as well as to perceive the illusion. An illusionary perceiver perceives the illusions generated by its qualia (and by its qualia-linked memories, which are also illusions). But most of the proponents of the illusionary self think that there's something outside the mind that is real. But how is an illusion able to perceive reality? — albeit a highly abstracted and filtered view of reality. Calling self-identity and consciousness an illusion is an intellectual cop-out (IMHO) because its proponents frequently use that argument to avoid dealing with the hard problem of mind.

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Victor
May 27

This is what David Chalmers calls "The Hard Problem of Consciousness." How do you derive a subjective sense of self from a materialistic explanation of the brain? It seems really hard, so hard that many scientists and philosophers just give up--the self as illusion, not something that needs to be explained, move along, nothing to see here.

But that fails at a very basic level--we all seem to have a subjective sense of self. Putting it in Cartesian Theater terms: the output of the sensory/perception process is up on a stage, and conscious attention puts a spotlight on whatever happens to seem important at the moment. But who (what) is the audience? Who is watching what is up on the stage?

If it's an illusion, *exactly* how is that illusion produced? And what is perceiving this illusion?

And why does no one seem to focus on the role of memory in all this?

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Wanda Tinasky
May 21

This was a nice piece of writing.

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FeepingCreature
May 21·edited May 21

The fiction is immensely useful for society though, because it makes the monkeys participate in making themselves predictable. The game-theoretic implications are obvious.

Is it "true"? I mean, whether the self runs on hardware or on a weird predictive emulator doesn't really make a difference on whether it "exists", IMO. A program can run on my computer or on a VM or an emulator, but it is running either way.

I do think there's something fascinating about the idea that we become persons by first learning to predict those around us as persons and then generalizing to ourselves. Which of course large language models could do just as well.

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Moon Moth
May 21

That's basic neural net training, right? We get trained on a set of examples, and adjust until we can reproduce those examples well enough. What's going on inside might differ, but certain types of inner structure might be more common as ways to produce the desired output.

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Randomstringofcharacters
May 21

We have a whole bunch of brain architecture designed for imagining other humans and their responses to things. People sometimes talk about animism or religion in general as being a product of taking these processes and applying them to natural phenomena. Maybe we can see the IFS type solutions as being using that mental equipment to solve other problems. And beneficial because its using something people might be already good at. (Like how some people with good visual reasoning convert math problems into images).

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Greg G
Clarifying
May 21

My take is that while humans are suggestible to some degree, that's not the same as LLMs following probabilistic patterns from their training data. The LLM really is mostly a simulation, although at times a very useful one, while the human is mostly a real agent, although conditioned in some ways. I've lost the reference, but there's been some work on assessing how well LLMs deal with counterfactual scenarios that don't conform to any training data. The answer is very poorly compared to humans. So while the LLM metaphor is very tempting, there still seems to be a big difference between them and humans.

And don't forget to factor in that humans are also suckers for any new metaphor for the human mind. When we invented steam engines, we came up with concepts about the mind like pressure building up. Then we thought about the mind as a circuit or computer. Now an LLM. These are all somewhat valid and probably increasingly accurate metaphors, but remember the map is not the terrain.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

>And don't forget to factor in that humans are also suckers for any new metaphor for the human mind. When we invented steam engines, we came up with concepts about the mind like pressure building up. Then we thought about the mind as a circuit or computer. Now an LLM.

Very true! One more of those metaphors was mind-as-telephone-network. https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fevo.2021.760269/full

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anomie
May 21

...None of those other things were explicitly based on neuron-based intelligence.

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Greg G
Clarifying
May 21

True. LLMs are much closer, although in my opinion we're still a couple of paradigm shifts away from building something that could be considered analogous to the human brain.

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Matthias Görgens
May 22

Depending on how things shake out, we might be able to convincingly simulate human behaviour, without ever simulating the brain. Basically, think current neural networks turned up to 11, and with more input and output modalities.

We are closer to passing the Turing test than ever before, and progress is ongoing.

(And I'm talking about the real Turing test as described in Turing's paper, which is adversarial, and everyone is fully aware that the test is happening. We are already past a very weak version of the Turing test were people sometimes mistake the outputs of computers for the outputs of humans.)

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darwin
May 21

Old-school psychology would call those 'social scripts', and yes it's very much what people are doing in the moment.

What's missing from the metaphor is the part where humans reconcile their actions with their self-concept, and choose which social role to play and personalize their scripts to match their self-concept. That mostly takes place unconsciously during down time, such that in the middle of a conversation you're mostly following the script, but the script gets updated to reflect your 'self' as well.

You can tell chatbots to take on a persona that does something similar, but for now it's a relatively superficial and stereotyped change compared to how humans construct long-term selves. For now at least.

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Viliam
Kittenlord’s Java Game Examples
May 21

So, motivational speeches are prompt engineering, and cultish brainwashing is jailbreaking?

If this was literally true, we could create arbitrary kinds of people by convincing them that everyone is like that, like in "The Truman Show". Can we actually do that?

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Jerden
May 22

I am pretty sure this is the premise of authoritian systems of government, it works well enough for a while but people are perfectly capable of following a social script without actually believing it.

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JamesLeng
May 22

People have needs other than script-following, and will self-modify when those needs are not being met. Thus, it may be possible in principle to create arbitrary social contexts and "kinds of people," but many of those are inherently unstable, or have other undesirable characteristics as an inevitable consequence of the design spec.

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caffeinum.eth @ Bali
May 23

Actually leaning into that, Buddhism kinda agrees as well.

In Buddhism (my naive interpretation), you do have many little selves that take control one by one. All of those are kinda like tornadoes — they are not living things, but a collection of automatic thought patterns and reactions. The “conscious” thing is only the one that’s choosing the self to spin up in any given moment (however Buddhism says that even this is automatic). This is the first link of Dependant Origination chain, the next ones are approximately parsing, evaluation, reaction and action.

Given how eerie similar this sounds to IFS, I was actually taking the IFS presuppositions much more seriously than Scott. However it also might be true that my “cultural” background convinces me that’s how the brain works

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CompCat
May 26

> In Buddhism (my naive interpretation), you do have many little selves that take control one by one. All of those are kinda like tornadoes — they are not living things, but a collection of automatic thought patterns and reactions.

I've never heard this before, do you know where this description is from? A story I heard from a text by a Tibetan master was describing the senses(not quite 'the self' like your example, I realize) like a monkey bouncing around a building with many windows, looking out of different windows. In this story he said from the outside, it would seem like there are a lot of monkeys in the building. But he said if you examined it closely, you would see there is only one monkey. And if you tied the monkey up, there would be no jumping around. Then they explains that the capturing the monkey is a representation of recognizing thought, and how that appears as diverse sense perception, but reveals singularity of consciousness.

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caffeinum.eth @ Bali
May 26

Yes, I am sorry, I mixed it up. The “Parliament” model comes from “The Mind Illuminated” by John Yates (Culadasa).

It suggests that the mind operates like a parliament rather than a dictatorship. Instead of a single central self controlling thoughts and actions, various mental processes (“members of parliament”) with different agendas influence decisions.

This also closely aligns with the Buddhist concept of no-self, and of impermanence – there is no permanent "doer", the illusion of doer is spawned ad-hoc to execute a task, and dropped once the task is complete.

I am sure there are many ways to interpret Buddhist teachings, so it doesn't matter which model to apply. I definitely benefit from the Parliament view, and that closely matches my internal experience. I am sure there are enlightened people who don't feel "split", and who'd not agree with the Parliament model

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Matthew Carlin
May 24·edited May 24

It's probably how most people are most of the time, but not how all people are all of the time.

To argue this point, I suggest, when you are in a strong place, you read "Eichmann in Jerusalem" by Hannah Arendt. It is the singular story of a singular Nazi, Adolf Eichmann, who under intense questioning in Jerusalem after the war, basically revealed that he was more of a parrot than a man.

While reading it, I think you will be struck by how *bizarre* it is that Eichmann is such a thorough parrot, so fully lacking in his own thoughts.

After reading it, I think you will be struck by how *common* that state really is in everyday human life. Oh no, you will say to yourself at some point... on an average day, we're mostly Eichmanns.

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quiet_NaN
May 27

The pessimist view (from elephant in the brain, I think) is that "I" am not the CEO of my brain, but merely the press secretary. Decisions get made subconsciously by processes selected for by evolution (e.g. gene-selfish decisions), and the conscious mind is tasked with coming up with a pro-social narrative of why it made that decision, when the truth is that it did not make the call in the first place and certainly not for the reasons it thinks it did.

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LarryBirdsMoustache
Ultraviolet Catastrophe
May 21

Is this guy's name literally Robert Falconer? Because Robert Falconer is a book by George MacDonald, who is most famous for Lilith, a book where the mythological figure Lilith is eventually redeemed. His attitude toward demons being potentially redeemable and persuadable seems like more than a coincidence to me.

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Eric fletcher
May 21

Highly likely that a person named RF would read a book called RF, if only out of curiosity. If RF is a high quality book, RF may have read other things by the same author.

And as they say of Atlas Shrugged and LOTR...

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Jack
May 21

What do they say of Atlas Shrugged and LOTR?

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FeepingCreature
May 21·edited May 21

The only quote I know about this is:

> There are two novels that can change a bookish fourteen-year old’s life: _The Lord of the Rings_ and _Atlas Shrugged._ One is a childish fantasy that often engenders a lifelong obsession with its unbelievable heroes, leading to an emotionally stunted, socially crippled adulthood, unable to deal with the real world. The other, of course, involves orcs. --John Rogers

I don't see the relation though.

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Eric fletcher
May 21

Reading a book can create pathways in your brain, which your brain then uses in other contexts

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Feral Finster
May 21

Some S&M aficionado with a vivid imagination ought to come up with a fanfic in which Middle Earth collides with Rand Earth.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21·edited May 21

On a related note: Was it some collaboration between an S&M aficionado and an evangelical that came up with "Miracle Whip"? :-)

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Matthias Görgens
May 22

You might be able to get GPT 5 to do a convincing version.

(I tried something similar with GPT 4, but I didn't manage to produce anything good.)

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Viliam
Kittenlord’s Java Game Examples
May 23·edited May 23

I have some ideas, but I can't actually write the story...

Suppose that Atlas Shrugged follows the original story with a tiny difference. John Galt invents a portal to a new world; either as a separate invention, or somehow related to his motor. Instead of building Galt's Gulch in a forest on Earth, they build it in the new world. At that moment, all they know about the new world is that there is a large forest where they can start building their new city.

Our story begins when Dagny is invited to Galt's Gulch (through the portal). Hobbits notice that something strange is happening in the forest nearby, and soon after Dagny's arrival, Bilbo initiates the first contact. First there is a friendly cultural exchange and mutually beneficial trade. Frodo becomes interested in technology and objectivism. For a while, it is more or less a libertarian utopia.

Then Gandalf comes to warn them that various political forces of Middle Earth heard rumors about the new visitors, and they are interested in the possible use of technology to further their own goals. This creates some disagreements among the Galt's Gulch about how to react. On one hand, they are hiding from the evil governments of Earth, and the governments of Middle Earth are probably not any better. On the other hand, there is so much opportunity for trade and profit! Also, they have no other place to hide (the portal only connects two worlds).

From the Doylist perspective, John Galt is too powerful character. He would make the right decision, whatever it is, and most people would follow. To have a proper conflict of ideas, he needs to be removed from the game. A possible solution is that Bilbo notices that John's mind is so pure that only he can resist the evil temptations of the ring. Therefore Bilbo gives the ring to John (or rather, he wanted to give the ring, but John insists on paying for it) so that John Galt can use the invisibility to explore the Middle Earth and make the right choice. But he is gone for a long time, with no communication lines, and the situation evolves and the other Earth humans must make their own choices. Only at the end of the story, John Galt will return and provide the right answer. (My proposal: He will teach others that objectivism is not anarchism, and a minimal government is needed to protect the rights and the free market. The Republic of Galtia is thereby established, it hires lots of mercenaries, conquers the Middle Earth, and then returns to also conquer the original Earth.)

Elves dislike technology, because their comparative advantage is magic, and they hate to see the trees cut down to make space for the railroads. Orcs dislike technology, because they are too stupid to understand it, and because they worship brute strength. Hobbits like their agrarian lifestyle, so they are interested in agricultural machinery and various gadgets, but not interested in travel (except for Bilbo and Frodo). Humans are like humans on our Earth; different humans react dramatically differently.

Wizards are deeply interested in everything, but they contribute little to progress, because as immortals they prefer to take their time, and they have less of an incentive to produce useful stuff as they already have magic at their disposal. Most importantly, wizards completely lack the business instinct; they see money as something only important for mortals, and the idea of building a slightly better mousetrap has no appeal for them. The wizard's idea of a "technological progress" is to study something in isolation for decades, and then produce an amazing artifact, which is unique and definitely cannot be mass-produced. Meanwhile, humans make thousands of small improvements motivated by profit, most of them insignificant, but it is the accumulation of all those improvements that changes the world. (At the end of the book, John Galt needs to make a dozen pages long speech about this.)

Gandalf advocates for responsible use of technology; he is worried about possible misuse, about the destruction of the environment or just generally upsetting the balance of nature. On the other hand, he sees the technology as a possible force against Mordor, providing better defense and communication to the forces of the good. (People from Galt's Gulch are happy to provide these services for money.)

Saruman is more ambitious; he wants to create machinery and military technology, so that he could challenge Sauron directly. He is careless about environmental and social impact, and thus needlessly antagonizes potential allies. (This is more controversial. Some people from Galt's Gulch worry about so much military power in their neighborhood, but they are also trapped in the Prisonner's Dilemma; if they won't sell to Saruman, someone else will.)

In Rohan, king Theoden opposes technology, but Eomer and the younger generation see the potential for warfare, agriculture, and infrastructure, which could make Rohan a superpower. Similarly in Gondor, Denethor wants to keep the status quo to preserve his personal power, but Faramir wants the people to benefit from technology.

There is also the general "feudalism vs capitalism" issue, where the kings like the idea of their kingdoms becoming richer and more powerful, but they do not like the idea of the merchant class getting relatively more powerful. Different countries could handle this conflict differently, for example Rohan becomes a successful constitutional monarchy, where the king gives up most of his personal power, but Gondor expropriates the merchants whenever the ruling class feels threatened. (Some people from Galt's Gulch suggest boycott, but again Prisonner's Dilemma.)

Dagny mostly wants railroads everywhere, connecting all places in the Middle Earth (maybe except for Mordor). She is expecting John Galt to return at any moment, and she wants to have the railroad ready for him when the moment comes, at any place where he might need it.

Sauron is easy to underestimate. Most people see him merely as a ruler of orcs, and because orcs are stupid and ignore technology, they believe that the balance is turning against him. However, Sauron is primarily a dark wizard, and the orcs are merely one of his many tools. He realizes the possibilities of technology for espionage and propaganda. Pseudonymously he contacts and manipulates people, including some in Galt's Gulch. He spreads misinformation and creates conflicts. And the orcs, although too stupid to invent things, can still use guns and bombs. (No one would publicly admit to selling guns and bombs to orcs, but somehow they get them anyway.) Towards the end of the book, a country or two could fall by Sauron sending orcs to take over a country divided by a civil war he helped to start, or to provide a military backup to a coup.

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Dweomite
May 24

This description makes me think of Terry Goodkind's "Sword of Truth" series

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Cjw
May 24

I didn't know about the connection at the time, and had just started reading Atlas Shrugged when one of Goodkind's Rand-iest books "Faith of the Fallen" came out and I realized where all of this was coming from. He even had a terrifying sonic weapon device in the prior book like the one at the end of Atlas Shrugged.

I think the pithy quote above that the ideas in Rand make you "emotionally stunted" and unable to "deal with the real world" are pretty unfair. Over the years, when it occasionally comes to mind, it's usually in context of holding myself to a higher standard of value, or thinking about the subplot of James' girlfriend and how you should love people for their merits. I think those ideas served me as well as an adult. I almost never feel guilt about anything, because I don't hold myself responsible for other people's problems or actions, and just that alone is amazingly positive for mental health.

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MLHVM
May 21

I'm dying.......XD

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Lucas
May 21

Slight counterpoint about the quote: reading Atlas Shrugged early in my 20s helped me "get" something about american culture that I didn't get before, and I now appreciate it way more, and I think treat it more fairly.

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Erica Rall
May 21

Out of curiosity, what specifically did it help you get?

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Lucas
May 23

I think I would say the mindset, the way of seeing things, the outlook on life and society and things like that. Maybe something like "what a pure individualistic mindset looks like, how can it be beneficial and allow flourishing", as before I had negative priors for mindsets like that, and I think believed deeply that everyone had a Duty to Help Society or something like that.

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Randomstringofcharacters
May 21

This is not a coincidence because nothing is ever a coincidence...

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Nobody
May 21

There's a theory bouncing around my head titled "the human mind is more mutable/moldable than anyone would like to admit", which fits this pretty well (along with other posts of yours like The Geography of Madness review).

Btw, is there any mention of the game Disco Elysium in the book? It's the first thing this reminded me of.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

Agree with this and at some point I'd like to combine all of these into a post with that topic. No, the book doesn't mention the game (and I've never played it).

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Nobody
May 21

Figured you hadn't, just wanted to check. 👍

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anomie
May 21

...You really should. I think you would really like it.

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Cry6Aa
May 22

Agreed.

It's a great game, not least because failure (the entire meta-point of the game) is mechanically just as interesting as success.

Take shivers, for best effect.

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Xpym
May 22

The meta-meta-point is also pretty impressive - the post-release fate of its developers might as well have come from inside the game!

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founding
Vaniver
May 21

Disco Elysium is an RPG where your skills are also psychological subparts, and a huge fraction of the dialogue is the parts of the protagonist's mind talking to the Self and each other. You'll probably complete a playthru in less than 20 hours.

It's the RPG I'd most recommend to you / ACX readers out of ones made in the last 10 years, I think.

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Matthias Görgens
May 22

If you like RPGs, you might like https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GuyImR_dI6g

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Deiseach
May 22

It's fun, but it's not really a game that you "win". There are various outcomes but it's not so much about resolving the main plot as the choices you make along the way.

And that's a terrible summation. It's very Continental European with the political angle, and I appreciated the parody of the EU mechanisms of government (what exactly *do* the technocrats do in Strasbourg and Brussels?). I also really liked the twist early on where the event that starts it all looks like an open-and-shut crime that everyone knows whodunnit, but it rapidly turns that on its head.

But honestly? It's about playing the game, not solving the mystery or getting to "the end".

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Desertopa
May 21

I've been thinking about this a lot lately (and have brought this up in at least one ACX comment before now.) The way I've been thinking of it, we know the human genome doesn't have anywhere near enough information to specify the entire architecture of a human brain. A fully developed human brain is an interaction between the limited instructions it's built from and the circumstances in which it develops. But I think it's a mistake to frame this in terms of our simply learning various lessons from our experiences. Rather, it's more that the actual software level operation of our brain is being developed over the course of our interaction with our environment. There are selective pressures for software that's functional, but down to a very basic level, no requirement that different people be running the same programs.

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darwin
May 21

My feeling is that you can get the brain to run lots of different software, but the hardware is more enduring.

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Tristan
May 21

Not quite that easy: the software shapes the hardware, which is one reason a lot of stuff is hard to fix.

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Yug Gnirob
May 21

...well, let's link the opening to Disco Elysium then. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V12Zt9209XM

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Deiseach
May 22·edited May 22

I liked all the British Sea Power songs, it was a reassuring frisson of familiarity the first time I went "Hang on, I know the original version of this song!"

It's an enjoyable game, once you forget all about trying to follow a straight line through to get to "the end". And the political commentary is funny, even if I am a filthy centrist MoralIntern lackey veering on being a Fascist (because if you're not pro-Communist, of course you're a Fascist. Or a liberal, hard to know which is worse).

EDIT: I suppose really what the game is about is - are you a Tequila Sunset or are you a Raphaël Ambrosius Costeau? 😁

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Lucas
May 21

Yeah, I feel the same about "mental contagion is absolutely a thing and should be taken way more seriously". I like the metaphor of contagion because when we transmit disease we usually don't do it on purpose, whereas with stuff like that it's easy to deny it by saying "No, I didn't want to influence that person, I just showed them an option" but by doing that you gave them the Move To Another Country Disease or something.

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Bistromathtician
Bistromathtician’s Substack
May 23

Yea, my interpretation is that consciousness is like a narrator/storyteller, and the mind is both the setting, plot, and main audience for the story consciousness is telling. Of course, Reality is telling a much more complex story, and there's 8 billion other narrators, along with countless other minds all telling "their" story as well. Culture is about both providing a consciousness scripts/plotlines/narratives that the "person" can follow to feel/be "good," and what to do when the story that's in our mind does not match the story Reality tells about us. But the scripts we tell about ourselves, and the ones that are "permissible" in Reality are extremely culture and context dependent. So, the role of psychologist or shaman are fundamentally similar, in that they try to get you to write a new story about yourself that brings your personal narrative into alignment with Reality's story.

So, whenever you have someone with a mental "problem," the mental health professional/shaman is listening to their story, taking note of how that story is different than the one "Reality" is telling (either in their personal opinion or in their role as an Agent of Culture/Society), and then "editorializing" about ways to get the two stories more in sync. This usually works well, since most people's problems fall into a few big buckets, so the professional just needs to find the right "script" (whether a story or a medication) which will "solve" the problem to the patient's/consciousness' satisfaction. But, particularly in people with a lot of exposure to their Culture's mental health "system," they already know the scripts/tropes/theories in the professional's toolbox, and are generating counter-narratives and excuses about how or why this particular intervention won't work or doesn't apply to them. So, when a sober and serious psychologist, who has been working with you for a long time, comes out and says something like "you might have a demon inside of you, I think we need to exorcise It," all of a sudden, that serves a similar psychological purpose to The Twist in an M. Night Shyamalan movie - it recontextualizes everything in such a way that the Story now "makes sense."

It makes sense that "moderns" would have fewer counter-narratives to something which seems mystical, so the demon narrative works best in precisely those situations where you patients have long-standing familiarity and numerous experiences with the mental health system, but their problems are seem too intractable. They have an internal narrative as someone with intractable problems, and then you have an Authority suggesting demons are too blame, and now you have a new Story that can overwrite all your previous failures and provide a new "origin" point for your personal story. That's why you can get such success stories when the idea of demons comes out of nowhere, but now that idea of iatrogenic demons is more well-known, I expect we'll get a lot more of the "horror" stories like the substack Scott linked to at the end.

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Lev Janashvili
DaaS
May 21

At the intersection of matter and metaphor, therapies can trip and fall into spirals of iatrogenesis. This essay seems to keep its balance.

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Daniel M. Bensen
Adventures in English
May 21

There was an acclaimed scifi book by Greg Bear written in 1990 called Queen of Angels with exactly this premise. I thought the book was burning but the story of a 2020s dentist-turned-exocist is awesome. I would read the hell out of an urban fantasy like that.

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Grant Gould
May 21

As a C++ programmer I really appreciate the term "ub" to refer to demons.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21·edited May 21

I am, however, disappointed that their expulsion isn't effected through the nasal cavity.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

Good to see I'm not the only one who caught that! 🤣

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Emilio Bumachar
May 21

Would you guys please let me in on the joke? I know C but not C++.

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gmt
May 21

UB is short for "undefined behavior", which is what happens when your code breaks rules of the programming language that the compiler assumes are true and optimizes around. There's a long standing joke that undefined behavior means that the compiler can do anything, including making "demons fly out of your nose".

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Joey Marianer
May 22

I think this is relevant in C as well. "UB" stands for "undefined behavior", and the half-joke is that it is legal (according to the language standard) for the compiler to make demons come out of your nose when it encounters something whose behavior is undefined.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

A former co-worker of mine used to say "If you lie to the compiler, it will have its revenge."

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

I like that! I'll have to remember that one.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 23

Many Thanks!

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Jason
May 21

Why did the human mind evolve to be so suggestible? Is it a side effect of a strong propensity for social learning?

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Yadidya (YDYDY)
YDYDY (youtube.com/@YDYDY)
May 21·edited May 21

Tribalism.

It's important to fit in well with a team BUT NOT with everyone.

That's what secret handshakes and odd religious beliefs are all about.

https://youtu.be/De5lWoTPTTY

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I don't think we were ever "intended" to reflect on our own mind as an object of perception. Our faculties for doing so are so weak that we kind of have to make them up as we go along. I hope I explain this better in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind review.

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Jason
May 21

Will read that, thanks!

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Randomstringofcharacters
May 21

In the ancestral environment all the stimuli you'd get would be directly relevant to survival, so it would be adaptive to be able to mold around them as much as possible. You want to pick up on a pattern of what fruit grows wear, or what tiny noises mean a predator, as quickly as possible. So why wouldn't it be as suggestible/malleable as possible in general?

Its only maladaptive in the comparatively recent circumstance of living in a world with lots of stimuli unrelated to survival. And with brains of yourself and other capable of creating new stimuli and forming feedback loops

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Jason
May 21

I guess you couldn’t be so suggestible that your competitor could tell that you’re a duck and all you do is quack and waddle around but yes it must’ve been adaptive relative to significantly higher and lower levels of suggestibility (or whatever was associated with those conditions).

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Dan
May 21

Footnote 5, mentioning that evolution has been selecting against schizophrenia for 40,000 years, made me wonder why we had so many bad brain genes to select against in the first place… It seems like maybe the original brain design was kind of terrible and we're still trying to get it right? (“The Origins of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Schizophrenic Mind”?)

I guess that even makes sense… evolution never gets anything perfect on the first try, but once you managed to get some apes with a kinda-sorta functioning general intelligence, they wouldn’t just hang out in their trees until evolution managed to get that intelligence perfect. They’d go out and conquer the world with their terrible flawed cognitively-biased schizophrenic bicameral ape brains.

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Cry6Aa
May 22

I have this theory that biological neural networks get less stable the larger they are, and that we're right up against the limit.

Coincidentally (or not), our brains have actually been getting smaller over the last 40 000-ish years as well.

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Matthias Görgens
May 22

Compare https://gwern.net/scaling-hypothesis#blessings-of-scale

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John Baometrus
WorldsArise
May 21

Warning: The following is a pointing-out instruction ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pointing-out_instruction ) on the nature of mind and therefore an infohazard. But I venture it because, after all, we're reading Scott Alexander here, so it's par for the course.

What is the human mind? Is there such a thing as an individual mind unshaped and not being continually influenced by existing & ongoing structure, system, organization, language, culture, and ideology? To live and exist as a human has always been to be a part of wider (social) mind.

I'm typing in a language I didn't invent, but in which I am obligated to speak and think if I want to communicate meaningfully with or understand my social world. I drove to work in a car I didn't make or invent, on existing roads that were planned and paid for by massive sociopolitical entities. I'm responding to articles and thoughts that contain tons of existing premises that aren't part of the topic. We are continually inhabiting, navigating, relying on and reifying larger systems and structures that were shaped and are maintained meaningfully and intentionally, therefore I call them part of "mind." It's all much bigger than "I' am, or "my mind."

My days are structured in planning and coordination with wider social opportunities and obligations provided or required by organizations I need or want to belong to/identify with. I was born into these societal structures, shaped by their cultural forces. And I exert my own shaping influences continually.

Where is the individual mind in all of this? It is mercifully bounded by blessed individual ego that keeps me sane and functional enough to be in relationship, community, and society that both care for, shape, need, empower and possibly exploit me to varying degrees across our experiences of consciousness.

But we can't speak this stuff. We can't talk about mind without influencing mind. Mind observed is mind vanishing and reorganizing out of view. Mind seems to be related to meaning and meaning-making; if we start trying to make meaning out of mind, the mind becomes making meaning out of mind, which changes mind. It's rather quantum. And we need to be really careful not to break 🧠 things in these conversations and conceptions.

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Jason
May 21

Mind. Blown.

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SamR71
May 22

How is this an infohazard? Isn't this obvious?

(after reading the link - it's just Buddhist theology)

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John Baometrus
WorldsArise
May 24

Thanks for asking. Maybe I'm just being dramatic, but I feel like, if a person really does grasp what I'm sharing - beyond just intellectual understanding - if someone really does take this in deeply and start to view mind and world this way, it can be destabilizing psychologically and socially.

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Oscar Cunningham
May 21

> but a surprising number of them say they got in during a childhood surgery

Perhaps the reason for this is that the person is asked when a demon entered them, and so they think of a time that their body was literally physically opened.

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Yadidya (YDYDY)
YDYDY (youtube.com/@YDYDY)
May 21

I once attended a Nigerian Church Meeting and you WOULD NOT BELIEVE the level of graphic language shouted by the priest regarding incubatic spirits.

This belief in demons entering women through their vulvas goes way way back. Maimonides rarely discussed nonsense idolatries that weren't already mentioned in the Torah but he went off quite madly against the belief and practice of women who attempt to conjure spirits into themselves in this manner. He claimed it was one of the ancient middle eastern practices that the Torah warns against but his level of literary disgust indicates that it was likely a practice in his own day.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

Hmm... By demons, could they possibly be referring to hallucinogenic plant mixes of some kind? People have used most areas of mucous membranes with good blood supplies for that purpose... And every cocaine sniffer with a collapsed nose (and other assorted ills) is evidence that this sort of thing can get risky...

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Viliam
Kittenlord’s Java Game Examples
May 23

Or they thought that female orgasm was demonic possession, so they warned women against the dangers of masturbation.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 23

Many Thanks! Ouch! Yeah, they might have thought that...

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darwin
May 21

Or just generally, a lot of people only have a few strong explicit episodic memories from their childhood, so there aren't a lot of candidates to latch onto when you start looking.

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Yadidya (YDYDY)
YDYDY (youtube.com/@YDYDY)
May 21

Fascinating article, thanks Scott!

One Great Truth is that for metaphors, magic, placebos, religions to "work" people need to be CERTAIN about them. And nothing ruins certitude more than other people poo-pooing them with a hearty laugh.

Everything from the power of the greenback to the magic of the eucharist to Law is a confidence game and whomever is most ruthless in dealing with doubters and heretics gets to set the zeitgeist.

How to deal with this is unclear to me but as a perennial skeptic I have seen the very best of people act like the very worst just to keep their treasured belief systems intact. It's quite the problem.

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Randomstringofcharacters
May 21

Ehh, I think economists are very aware of the socially constructed nature of money and financial systems. As are lawyers and judges. And are pretty open to discussing that. It just doesn't change that they act based on them day to day because there's no other option

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luciaphile
May 21

I daydream of an entirely different "court" system where there the judge is a guy writing down facts on a chalkboard, trying to get to the truth of the matter, with help from all interested parties - not stage managing theatrical performances and mummery designed to conceal, and degrade the power of reason.

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The Ancient Geek
RationalityDoneRight
May 21

Investigating judges are a thing.

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Edmund
May 21

That may be, but I think luciaphile is picturing a judge that cuts out all the ritual. No "your honor" and such, just Bill over there with the notepad.

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The Ancient Geek
RationalityDoneRight
May 21·edited May 21

How does that help? If Bill is some random dude, everyone can ignore his questions , or walk out of the courtroom.

Pretend egalitarianism is worse than actual egalitarianism, and also worse than explicit hierarchy. Its hierarchy with the added burden of having to figure out that one particular jeans-and-tee-shirt guy is the boss

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Edmund
May 22

From luciaphile's comment about "theatrical performances and mummery designed to conceal, and degrade the power of reason", I guess they feel the unnecessary embellishments serve as distractions and prevent everyone (Bill included) from performing at peak mental capacity. Not my idea though.

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Arie Arie
May 23

If you listen to a SCOTUS hearing, I am if anything surprised at how dense and straightforward most of the questions are. Yes people use some legalese, but in this setting precision of language is highly optimal. The most poo-ha is titles and "may it please the court", neither of which cost much time.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 23

As an (admittedly bad) attorney this is one of my pet peeves. The actual objection almost always turns out to be that people in courts are careful with their words and insist on defined rules and procedures - the very thing that makes justice in which people can be locked up in a cage consistent, careful, and evenhanded.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 21

Such a system would be great if the guy has no biases or mistakes in his thought process. Otherwise it would an imposition of some dude's arbitrary will.

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luciaphile
May 21·edited May 21

I am picturing him being only a notetaker, of facts; not an arbiter.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 21

I don't want to get into a whole argument about this. But the reason the legal system seems insane (and having worked in it for a decade I agree it seems insane) is because people have wildly differing ideas of which facts are important, what words mean, or even what a fact is. Part of the note taking will necessarily involve judgment about which facts are relevant and how they should be recorded. Once you start letting people argue about that, you get your idea reduced to our insane system pretty quickly.

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luciaphile
May 21·edited May 21

I've no doubt it would be imperfect as all human endeavours are, but the idea would be to establish - separately from the "judgment" - what happened, so that the public is not essentially, permanently "gaslit" as now.

The judge or the lawyers could then argue over the real issue - whether there will be mercy or justice, those two mutually exclusive things. That part could reflect the cultural bias or shortcomings that we have now enshrined in the legal system.

But the point of the thing would be to ascertain simple truth, not violate common sense.

It would be uncoupled from the idea of "innocence" as the word is now twisted.

So that OJ can be guilty of the crime - but also walk free if that is the societal preference at the moment. No nonsense about what lawyers did or didn't "prove" in a setting where true words spoken are penalized.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 21

This doesn't make any sense. All judgment, including "what happened" is run through the filter of human beings' imperfect minds, and is subject to the same social pressures you're discussing. Are you asking for a court system that's omnipotent? Because I agree that would be nice.

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luciaphile
May 21·edited May 21

Some of my thinking on this comes from reading the Trollope novel "Orley Farm" - less the substance precisely than the realization that that most respectable 19th century gentleman, no radical whatsoever - had yet felt free to critique the legal system. Something no one now does - we've even turned over rule to the Supreme Court, so quite the opposite - because the members of the legal profession have cloaked themselves in piety rather than be content to accept their recompense is their pay like most everyone else.

There are plenty of times no one sane could question "what happened".

The system could continue its omnipotence in regard to punishment or more often, lack thereof; I don't expect we would suddenly return to Old Testament moralizing.

The crazy person who went next door the other day, and stabbed the little boy, leaving him in a state from which he'll never recover -- there's no reason to have a long trial about that, or delay, or pay a bunch of lawyers to vomit up words about it.

It happened, we know it.

Now: the judgment part is merely to decide whether we eliminate this person from our midst or not. In general, at the moment, we "like" that guy. We like to have him around. He has status, as a crazy person, because we like for low things to be placed on high.

That is fine; he is released. He can go do what he likes and kill somebody if he likes.

The important thing was that we didn't do any pretending on the way to getting that outcome, which can be easily managed by a jury acted upon by those lawyers and that judge - in a very short interval of time. No need to waste so much societal air and resources on it.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 21

Oh okay so it's just "whenever luciaphile is really really sure about it." Fair enough.

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luciaphile
May 21

I mean, I guess the family next door could be lying about what happened to the little boy; and the family of the man who came from next door. And perhaps the man himself. What is the point of a trial in this situation? What is the point in spending hundreds of thousands of dollars on it? What exactly is "on trial" if not society itself in this situation? Why do we need to ritually repeat this exercise over and over?

But I totally get that I seem to be the only person who'd ever read a forum like this, who is unhappy with this state of affairs, as the subject actually never comes up. It's that sacrosanct.

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Michael
May 21

> No need to waste so much societal air and resources on it.

You may already have your wish on that part. The vast majority of criminal cases end in plea bargains, saving time and money. According to the article linked below, 98% of criminal cases in the federal courts end with a plea bargain.

https://www.npr.org/2023/02/22/1158356619/plea-bargains-criminal-cases-justice

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 23

Yeah this take of "if we know someone's guilty there's no need to prove it" is wild. How do we know unless we prove it? And an integral part of that system (though probably abused in a few ways there's no need to get into for this discussion) is the ability of all the parties to stipulate to facts that are too difficult to contest.

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Nancy Lebovitz
Input Junkie
May 21

I've read that the American style is adversarial and the French style is inquisitorial. I hope the inquisitorial style would have less stupid drama, but I wonder whether it's even worse at having the government investigate itself.

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luciaphile
May 21

The American system is so peculiarly adversarial that in a way it is advancing toward what I suggested, vis-a-vis how often we read about so-and-so committing some crime awful enough to sell papers, and how he had done nine or ten similarly awful things in the past few years, without consequence; or how there were umpteen warrants out for somebody, or they'd repeatedly violated their patrol - but the administrative state had chosen not to pursue that stuff. This is so commonplace it is not really productive of more than pro forma outrage once in a while. But it suggests there is indeed "omnipotence" aplenty in certain quarters; and that the public is now considered in great degree, just another adversary in the matter of order.

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Moon Moth
May 21

You might be interested in checking this out:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Celebrated_Cases_of_Judge_Dee

From the preface:

> This novel clearly shows the comprehensive duties of the magistrate in his quality as presiding judge of the district tribunal. Crimes are reported directly to him, it is he who is expected to collect and sift all evidence, find the criminal, arrest him, make him confess, sentence him, and finally administer to him the punishment for his crime.

...

> It must be added, however, that it is not by the use of torture or other violent means, the judge achieves his successes but rather by his wide knowledge of his fellow men, his logical thinking, and, above all, by his deep psychological insight. It is mainly due to these assets that he succeeds in solving many a case that would have been a hard nut to crack for our modern detectives.

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luciaphile
May 21

Will check it out, add to long list of books!

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Feral Finster
May 21

If anything, in my experience, lawyers are more aware of the limits of what law can do than are most humans.

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Yadidya (YDYDY)
YDYDY (youtube.com/@YDYDY)
May 21·edited May 21

You are missing the point.

Placing a human being in a cage because he does not believe in your laws is pretty strong. It matters very little whether O'Brien is able to converse rationally about the party while he has his hand on the electrocution dial.

Priests could afford to be open-minded with doubters so long as they have the power to place the doubter in gaol.

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Dweomite
May 24

We don't put people in jail for not "believing in" laws, we put them in jail for not OBEYING laws. This seems like a pretty important distinction to me.

We even go to some length to specify that it's entirely legal to say that a law is bad or to try to change it.

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Joe
May 21

Yet economists believe in the mythical "free market." Without reservation.

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Ben
May 24

Money is a social construct- like gender, laws, or even language. That doesn't mean it isn't *real*. That just means that it doesn't exist outside of a society that uses that construct.

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asdf asdf
May 21

Content Warning: torture, ritual abuse, child abuse

Another explanation for at least some of those cases of demon parts is ritual abuse and mind control cults like the one I was raised in. As a child, I was taught a variety of religious explanations for dissociative phenomena caused by drugs, torture, gaslighting, electricity, hypnosis, and rituals, including possession by "devils" and "satan" who would take over during some of the worst parts and cooperate with the abusers. Some of these included being taught that spirits were being placed inside of me that were passed down through the family line, that my father had inherited passed down into him through his parents.

I was also trained, with similar methods, to forget, to maintain dissociative memory barriers, to avoid any awareness, memory, or acknowledgement of those events outside of very specific situations. I lived through most of my adult life in a dissociative fugue, with no memory of my childhood at all.

I'm pretty concerned by a book that endorses treating these parts as real supernatural entities without discussing ritual abuse backgrounds like mine which are pretty likely to present symptoms like those discussed in this book, with dissociated parts of deeply traumatized people claiming to be demons and devils.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

It sounds like Falconer was also raised in some kind of abuse cult, although maybe it was more of an informal network of sadists who liked abusing children. You can accuse him of a lot of things, but I expect he's very sensitive to this particular situation.

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bertrand russet
May 21

no trouble if it's distressing for you to talk about, but how did you get past the fugue and recover some childhood memories?

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asdf asdf
May 21·edited May 21

The biggest enabling prompt for me was, my youngest sister managed to tell her therapist about the sexual abuse, and he took "mandatory reporter" status seriously, and my father got arrested. Then my sister moved in with me for six months, to get out of Utah.

Another big aspect to it was like, the fugue state I keep getting stuck in is reading fiction, ignoring reality and vicariously experiencing the lives and thoughts of fictional people while I'm reading about them. I'm not sure how much it's a cause vs being an effect of the mental processes that lead to me noticing how dissociated I was and noticing other parts of myself, but around that same time I was reading a lot of fiction about cognitohazards and mind control and complicated time travel and complicated cosmology and metaphors for AI alignment and decision theory stuff and reasoning about fictional or simulated versions of yourself. Notable mentions include There Is No Antimimetics Division and Project Lawful.

I read some good books about dissociation (Unshame) and healing from ritual abuse (Becoming Yourself). I learned about equanimity and meditation from the book The Mind Illuminated, which helped a lot for stabilizing myself through flashbacks and intense dissociative experiences while remembering.

I started writing down my flashbacks. I started taking some time every night to sit by the side of the road and listen to cars and write down whatever memories come to mind. Finding places and situations and other ways to trigger associations with childhood scenarios, accessing reminders of the self-reporting programs. Talking to my recorder whenever the flashbacks start, or whenever I realize that I don't remember what I was just talking about, to catch it when dissociated parts are switching into awareness and give them an opportunity to communicate.

A lot of talking with my partner and with a few close friends. Having someone you trust to talk to about weird and complicated stuff helps a lot. We kept getting our memory reset, forgetting what we were talking about, when we were trying to remember and disclose about this stuff at first. Having someone there just to give me reminders of what I was talking about and simple prompts to help keep me talking and on-track helped a lot.

It's been really complicated. When I'm in states where I have access to the memories, I also usually experience inability to communicate, overwhelming fear that I'll be dragged back into various drugs-and-torture scenarios if I say or do anything based on those memories, if I communicate anything about their content, and I just freeze up until I go away again. Every once in a while we end up with enough of the right parts online at the same time to try to write about it. It's like slowly dragging information through a quarantine, just a little bit at a time.

Therapy has been a big part of our recovery too.

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Ara
22 hrs ago

Thank you for sharing your story. It seems more consideration (and props) needs to be given to the role of disassociation in helping those with trauma go on about their business and build their lives. Without it, you, nor I (for different reasons) would have been able to cope.

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RenOS
May 21·edited May 21

When I was a young teen - don't know the exact age - I had a sudden onset of terrible nightmares, every single night, usually of the "wakes up, but actually it's another nightmare!" variety. This kept on for weeks with no end in sight. I've had nightmares reasonably often before, but nothing remotely like this.

At that time, I figured, well, my brain is made up of some parts that do different things. For simplicity, I imagined them as little anthropomorphised neurons, though (I think) I was aware at the time that this was a great simplification.

Necessarily (in my logic back then, at least), that would mean that there are some neurons which are causing these nightmares. Since they were absolutely awful, I imagined all my neurons making a contract with each other: We all hate these nightmares, so none from now on. If I have one, I imagined the collective going on a witch hunt, one that is always going to succeed, since being part of the same brain means there is no hiding. For a while, I continued having nightmares, but when I then went to bed the next day, I imagined how the collective has found a traitor - or multiple -, and that they are now being executed. Over time, I lost my fear of nightmares - after all in my mind, they were caused by weak, foolish beings who will soon stop existing. In the same vein, they became more rare. I continued this mental image until they had stopped altogether.

Since then, I can't remember ever having a nightmare again. It just doesn't happen.

I think this concept of exorcising/banishing/executing evil elements, be it from a group or a single person, is just an extremely powerful, innate mental practice for humans to forcefully get rid of something that is truly hated. I still need to mull over the implications of this, and from realisations about other mental practices that seem simultaneously obviously untrue, but also obviously adaptive.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

Is remembering nightmares particularly common for people? Me, personally, I don't *ever* remember dreams (good or bad) unless I wake up while dreaming them. This is why I've told my wife, in no uncertain terms, not to try to wake me up from a nightmare no matter how bad of a dream I appear to her to be having: because THEN I'LL REMEMBER IT!

Is it very different for other people?

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Arbituram
May 21

Maybe not particularly common, but there are certainly a non trivial number of people who have frequent and remembered nightmares (myself, for one) for no good reason - I have lived nearly the least traumatic life possible.

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1123581321
May 21

Very occasionally I'd have a dream (not necessarily a nightmare) that stays in memory for a long time. I've never figured out why (not that I tried hard).

Most dreams fade within literally minutes of waking up.

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AntimemeticsDivisionDirector
May 21

I rarely remember specific details for longer than a few minutes, but I will wake up in a panic, which is unpleasant in and of itself.

Interestingly, while I'm incapable of lucid dreaming as a general rule, I have developed the ability to fairly consistently tell when a dream is turning into a nightmare and wake myself up before that happens.

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Dino
May 21

Yes, of course it's different for other people. The biggest thing I have learned from reading ACX and SSC is that people are way more different than you thought possible.

If I'm having a nightmare, getting woken from it ASAP is the best thing that could happen. I'll soon forget it. OTOH I've had memorable dreams that I remember for decades.

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RenOS
May 22

As a child and young adult I remembered them quite well and often thought about them. Some time in college it stopped for some reason.

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Dweomite
May 24

I seem to only remember dreams if I wake during them, but "waking during a dream" happens moderately often to me even with no external stimuli. I don't keep track, but maybe a couple times a week?

(I am fortunate to have very flexible work hours, and so I don't use an alarm to wake myself except on special occasions; I just sleep until I awake naturally. I have a hypothesis that I go through some sort of half-awake state that allows the dream to transfer to long-term memory.)

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Nancy Lebovitz
Input Junkie
May 21

I recommend "Carcinoma Angels" by Norman Spinrad, about a man who uses vivid imagery to fight his cancer. I think the ending was just tacked on, but the rest of it is good.

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Randomstringofcharacters
May 21

Interesting. Reminds me of your story about the patient and the hairdryer. How much does it matter if the principles behind something are true/good if it helps a patient? Maybe you get a psychiatric equivalent of technical debt with these kind of solutions where you create, or leave unsolved, bigger underlying issues

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darwin
May 21

What I would say is that it doesn't matter too much for treatment, but it matters what the clinician believes because that limits their ability to respond to different patients with different needs, discover new methods or improve existing ones, and generally move the state of the field forwards.

It's great if the field says 'different patients respond to different metaphors, you should use whichever metaphor helps the individual patient best, here's a 15-question diagnostic tool to help figure that out in the first session.'

It's less good if a quarter of the field believes demons are real, and a quarter of the field believes the brain is a computer that only responds to CBT-style operating instructions, and a quarter of the field etc etc., and these incompatible beliefs make each quarter of the field unable to appreciate anything from the other quarters or to notice and learn anything new about their field, and the whole field stagnates in factional battles.

We're not at either of those extremes right now, but it's good to be careful about pushing us towards the first one instead of the second.

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JamesLeng
May 22

If there are four internally-consistent, and efficacious, but mutually incompatible root theories of mental health, perhaps it would be better to formalize the divisions between those, turn them into something more like separate fields (or churches?) with separate certifications, so any given patient can more easily avoid the ones they know don't work for them. Then some overarching regulatory authority can monitor results, and keep an eye out for egregious abuses, but remain strictly neutral on the big theoretical questions.

Given that factional battles are happening, and not likely to stop, how could they be made useful? If all the factions can agree on some initial triage questionnaire (failing anything else, each could simply write their own, and then all of those get concatenated), incoming patients can be split up into types, then each faction's success rates with any given thus-definable type of patient can be tracked, across various timescales and definitions of "success."

Resulting statistics could be turned into a basis for friendly rivalry, almost like sports, with tenured researcher positions as the stakes. After all, consistently getting the best results within a specific demographic means the faction in question must be doing *something* right. Thus, might as well let some qualified expert throw a decade or three of undivided attention at trying to figure out exactly what that something is, maybe how to improve it further... or at least getting all the documentation sorted out, standardized, and archived to make sure they don't collectively forget how to maintain the fundamentals. Cross-paradigm research then flows naturally from seeking advantage in those competitions.

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SkinShallow
Not a Philosopher
May 21

This is such a great review/summary/discussion!

I'm wondering if people vary by something (and I don't think that "something" is IQ, or at least not IQ alone -- maybe it's some kind of combination of IQ, Openness to Experience factor from Big5 and educational/intellectual background?) that determines their ability to use certain frameworks as metaphors, tools, "games" of sorts without reifying them. These would include IFS, classical psychoanalysis, magic, Tarot readings, chakra "work" and the whole energy meridians kaboodle etc. Or whether we'll ALL eventually slide into actually believing those things are actually real in a "really-real" sense.

I wonder if reification/essentialist takes on, for example, DSM categories are an example of the same thing from the other end.

Anecdata time: I'm a moderately traumatised (in mid life though, not childhood) woman /female with high scores on typically masc traits -- every single trait etc unidimensional inventory consistently identifies me as a dude, and two dimensional ones give me high M and moderately high F scores; most definitely NOT a borderline (if anything, slightly psychopathic before trauma), and extremely high O scores.

I find the "parts" framework very useful, especially in actually actively working with the post traumatic issues. I never had actual IFS therapist but one I did work with (mostly Dan Siegel's IPNB which I found useful as a framework if not fully convincing from the neuro side) seemed happy to adopt my natural anthropomorphisation of "limbic" or "PFC" processes (I kinda hid from her that I considered "limbic" and "PFC" as metaphors in this context too ;). Later on I encountered (online, and all were American) people involved with actual IFS and there seem to be a HUGE tendency to reify those models, and at least some overlap with people (yes, all were childhood-traumatised women, possibly borderline leaning) considered themselves, ummm, actual "systems" and referred to themselves using plural "we". Whether that's a iatrogenic pathology, beneficial strategy of semi-integration or would have been there anyway, idk. But made me think about those lines between "framework/metaphor" and "actually demons" and the risks involved.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I'm guessing the "something" is best described as hypnotizability or suggestability, but I'm not sure, and I don't know if Tarot readings fall into the same category as everything else here (partly since I'm not sure what you would use to define a Tarot reading as "successful" or not)

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SkinShallow
Not a Philosopher
May 21

I meant Tarot as something you can use in "disbelief suspension": I can do a Tarot spread of let's say "my current life situation". Obviously the spread is random and unrelated causally to my life situation. Another person holding the same deck asking a different question would get exactly the same spread. But I can STILL use it as canvas on which to project what's in my head (which is eminently relevant). But I can't imagine myself starting to believe that I'm getting external insights. Could replace with Rorschach or Koch tree or pretty much any projective "test" (though the supposed mechanism is different for Tarot and projective "tests"). Success is defined as "obtained insights that were not necessarily available otherwise".

And while I don't need to believe that doing a Tarot spread allows me access to external sources of knowledge, or even, to be Jungian about it, with shared human archetypes floating in some kind of ether of universal sub/semi consciousness, *suspending* this disbelief, going into the experience as a make-believe "play" (so, method acting, or sport or BDSM scene like) makes it certainly more fun and possibly more effective.

But it also creates a potential problem of NOT permanently acquiring those make-belief beliefs: to use the analogy from psychedelia, ideally you'd go into the experience fully open to let's say experiencing dragons (or even becoming one, as long as you can be sure someone will stop you from trying to fly) BUT ALSO absolutely sure that they don't actually exist and even if they did, people couldn't transform into dragons. So, we want a powerful cognitive anchors in reality, but we also want openness to the trip, or, pivoting back to the therapeutic approaches, the utility of such frameworks.

Apologies, I don't have this worked out so I'm thinking aloud here.

Ultimately, I agree that reification/essentialist takes on ICD entities are probably less potentially damaging than iatrogenic demons, especially in a culture where the former is an accepted mainstream belief and the latter reads as a pointer to psychosis workup.

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Scott
May 21

Buzan recommended a similar idea, opening a dictionary to a random page and tapping a random word and relating it to whatever the topic at hand was, back when there were books.

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SkinShallow
Not a Philosopher
May 22

Yes, similar. Very many years ago, and even more miles/social systems away I had a clinical psych tutor who combined kinda hippy sensibility with a very realistic view of for example acute psychosis, and who was obliged by the curriculum to teach us about things like Rorschach etc and I remember her saying "y'know, this is all good but also kinda dubious, ultimately you need experience and judgment, and when you have that you don't need ink blots, you can diagnose using a chair or a picture of a puppy".

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A Wild Boustrophedon
May 21

I use Tarot cards in the way you describe, and find it very helpful.

It's kind of like asking someone with relationship troubles "how is your significant other like the moon? if one of those ways was the cause here, what might it be?" and getting them to free-associate. I agree with you that a kind of doublethink is necessary to get value out of it – you have to give your brain permission to explore the idea uncritically, otherwise self-censorship gets in the way.

My wife has a highly developed sense of the ridiculous and gets nothing at all out of any kind of spiritualism or woo (she can't even enjoy yoga), whereas I'm as atheist as they come but still find the 'vibes' of some spiritual practices helpful/comforting.

Scott makes a good point that the objective level fact of the matter isn't really relevant to one's inner life; I think that's exactly right.

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Shabby Tigers
May 21

iff this frustrates her, consider getting her the Science Tarot. my own woo allergy prevents me from suspending my screaming disbelief for long enough to get anything whatsoever out of the standard Rider-Waite tarot deck, and most other decks are even worse, but the Science deck is so cleverly built (which distracts the critical mind with shiny things) and on such comfortably non-allergenic themes that I can kinda get into it.

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darwin
May 21

Honestly, I wonder if it's more analogous to something like taste in music... lots of factors influence it and it's not totally predictable, but some people just respond better to some styles of art than others.

Could just be that the important thing is that the patient is engaged and invested and really doing the work consistently without shirking (and doing it in a proper way that aims them towards improvement), and it doesn't matter too much which metaphor or ritual they're using as long as they are doing the work.

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WindUponWaves
May 21·edited May 21

> maybe it's some kind of combination of IQ, Openness to Experience factor from Big5 and educational/intellectual background?

The first thing that came to mind when I read that was that famous quote, "The mark of an educated mind is to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it."

(Though I suppose that, in practice, for a very long time & perhaps today, the mark of an educated mind is doing the exact opposite of that and believing in what other people believe very very hard, so you can be their minister & priest. Or commissar & political officer. Or shaman & spirit guide. Such was the case in Mediaeval Europe, Stalinist Russia, and other times & places at least. Maybe even our own, if you want to be pessimistic. At the very least, it'd be foolish for Stalin to set up universities and *not* make sure that no one does the "entertain a thought without accepting & ferverently believing it" thing regarding Stalinism, or for the Church to run its universities without making sure that they first don't undermine the Church, or for the Imperial Chinese education system to not produce 'excellent sheep' that can serve as a role model to the other sheep.

I wouldn't be surprised, at least, if that sort of "find things Beautiful without finding them True" thing is actually something that's more a matter of temperament than anything else... same way Diogenes was the one who showed Plato his plucked chicken "Man" despite Plato being the one running the Academy.)

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Moon Moth
May 21

The back half of Jonathan Haidt's "The Righteous Mind" is about the theory that rational thought is downstream from persuasiveness. That we evolved to use language and rationalization to persuade other humans to share a common belief structure, which let us coordinate together. Meme spreading, basically. And the ability to actually think rationally about the world is a side-effect, which can be helpful but which can also make the person hard to coordinate with if the rest of the society is operating on vibes and memes.

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Swagdiddy
Swagdiddy’s Substack
May 24

I think this is actually a very interesting question. As for which psychometric dimension that most highly correlated with "reification of mental frameworks", I would think that it is negatively associated with IQ, and positively associated with schizophrenic indicators (or Sapolsky's framing, "magic surrealist thinking").

What I understand to be the thing that IQ measures is not intelligence per se, but rather abstraction skills, rotating a 3D shape inside your head, solving math equations, and generally interpreting and framing experiences through the lense of mental abstractions. With adeptness as manipulating abstractions, it follows that swapping out abstractions (models of the world) for other abstractions is a very practised skill. And since abstractions get swapped in and out, the less attachment to each one as the epistemological frame for interpreting the world. Which I think correlates in my experience with high rates of aethiesm in high IQ people; not because religion is rationally deduced as implausible, but because religion requires commitment to a singular mental model that gets no updates (unlike science) to the abstraction.

The negatively correlated trend, I think, would be the schizophrenic trait type, which I have some personal experience of under the influence of certain mind altering substances. In this typology, the mental and physical boundaries are a continuous gradient where one flows into the other, and any mental abstractions seem to be defacto contingent on some physical phenomena.

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KL
Jun 10

"religion requires commitment to a singular mental model that gets no updates (unlike science)"

If you study the history of Western thought and theology, I think you will find that religious models are often updated! For example, Christianity was originally pitched as a update to Judaism. And there are ongoing reforms, arguments, and compromises being made in every mainstream religious community.

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Tatu Ahponen
Tatu Ahponen
May 21

I've sometimes wondered why, out of all the claims made by religions and other supernatural systems, the existence of demons and evil spirits seems to be among the most denigrated and the most likely one for more "rationalist" believers to castigage and be uncomfortable about, since it would seem to also be one of the most universal beliefs, one with a certain level of evidence (like described here!), and anecdotally one of the likelier ones to cause skeptics to insta-convert to believers of some sort.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

Maybe because it's one of the most testable? "God exists and has a plan" is pretty distant from any particular situation, but "this medical problem is caused by a demon" pays rent in anticipated experience, to use the LW term.

Falconer had an interesting section about elite vs. folk religion, where the folk religion was constantly believing in demons and the elites were constantly trying to shut them down. Uncharitably, maybe this is because the elites' priests were worse at casting out demons than random medicine women or whatever, so this was a threat to their power.

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1123581321
May 21

I feel that we have to mention Maxwell's Demon at this point, although I struggle to think what exactly its message is...

Reference: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maxwell's_demon

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Moon Moth
May 21

The same people who tell us that demons don't exist, also tell us that the 2nd law of thermodynamics is true? :-)

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1123581321
May 21

Touché!

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founding
Vaniver
May 21

I mean, it also could be the case that the elite were in league with the demons.

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WindUponWaves
May 21·edited May 21

Is *that* why conspiracy theorists so often accuse the modern day elite of being in league with the demons / being satanic pedophile child abusers guilty of every single crime the conspiracy theorists can think of?

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beleester
May 21

A lot of people on /r/conspiracy talk about demonic possession in a kinda vibes-based way ("I look at people on the street and I just *know* something's wrong with them" and so on), which makes me wonder if there's a shared mechanic of "making yourself super-vigilant for signals from your subconscious."

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Moon Moth
May 21

When I see a drug addict in that weird leg-bent slump, it does seem that some bizarre force is holding them up, because a normal person would have either stood up straight or collapsed.

There's also a distinct set of signals given off by people who are unstable and looking for a fight.

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Joe
May 21

So in the wake of the Jeffrey Epstein scandal, we can confidently guess a substantial percentage of our elites are involved in underage prostitution rings and human trafficking. Hope this isn't a non sequitur.

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John R Ramsden
May 22·edited May 22

St Paul wrote (Ephesians ch 6)

"Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places."

I guess that could be read as either a portentous warning about supernatural demons in league with Satan, or a rather more practical message that the evil to be challenged resides more in general attitudes, especially as encouraged by the leadership, rather than individuals.

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 21

Science cannot disprove the existence of demons, any more than it can prove the existence of God. All science can do is provide a framework for testing hypotheses.

Though it's very clear in the book review that the author believes demons to be real and not metaphorical, scientifically the difference is irrelevant. He says an electron is a particle, she says it's a wave, and I say it's a splorf.

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The Unloginable
May 21

"When people thought the earth was flat, they were wrong. When people thought the earth was spherical, they were wrong. But if you think that thinking the earth is spherical is just as wrong as thinking the earth is flat, then your view is wronger than both of them put together."

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 21

This is an undeniably correct quote, but I don't understand the relevance. I'm not saying whether the demons hypothesis is correct. I'm saying it isn't testable scientifically.

"A difference that makes no difference is no difference."

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Scott
May 21

If it's untestable then it's untrue; Occam's Broadsword.

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Scott
May 21

Everyone's *almost* an atheist, right? There are roughly 4000 religions; people believe in almost invariably 0 or 1, likely never more than... ten?

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

Perhaps some syncretic polytheistic religions get to higher numbers ... though actively worshiping more than Dunbar's number of deities would presumably be a strain on memory... :-)

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 21

Gödel proved some things are true that cannot be proven true. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G%C3%B6del%27s_incompleteness_theorems

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Michael
May 21

Charitably, the parent comment could be expressing positivism. In positivism, an assertion that is untestable (i.e. cannot affect the world) is treated as meaningless and ignored, roughly as if it were untrue.

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 22

I do not read "meaningless and ignored" at all the same as "untrue". If one cannot tell whether a demon or some mysterious brain process is causing a psychosis, the distinction should be meaningless and ignored, but it could still be true that a demon is possessing someone, just not relevant.

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Michael
May 22

Then you're not a positivist.

It may not be the most intuitive philosophy, but it isn't *that* weird. If I say there's an invisible dragon in Iceland that can't be touched, heard, smelled, or affect the world in anyway whatsoever, you could say that my theory is untestable but possible. But most people would probably just say there is no invisible dragon.

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 22

That's Russell's teapot. I could explain static electricity generated by rubbing things on hair by explaining such rubbing irritates the ethereal blue dragons, who then spout lightning. They're ethereal, so you can't detect them. The difference is an explanation of an observed phenomenon: static electricity generation, which is so far unexplained scientifically. Your invisible dragon is the same as the teapot: it explains nothing at all, and there is no reason to postulate either.

Oxford Languages says positivism is "a philosophical system that holds that every rationally justifiable assertion can be scientifically verified or is capable of logical or mathematical proof". You're absolutely right that I'm not one. It's a logically flawed philosophy, as no assumptions can be proven or scientifically verified. If they can be, they aren't assumptions! Yet logic and science all do indeed have assumptions, any of which may theoretically be tested or proven (but not all, as Gödel proved).

Whether you want to assume demons exist or that they don't, until we have some test to tell which is correct, it isn't a scientific question.

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Michael
May 22

> It's a logically flawed philosophy, as no assumptions can be proven or scientifically verified.

This doesn't really have any relation. Positivists are fine with axioms or statements like "assuming X then Y".

> Whether you want to assume demons exist or that they don't, until we have some test to tell which is correct, it isn't a scientific question.

Now you're sounding like a positivist.

Another example would be the various interpretations of quantum mechanics (e.g. many worlds interpretation) that yield identical results. A positivist would probably say the interpretations aren't meaningful.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

>That's Russell's teapot.

I sort-of wonder if, since Musk had a Tesla Roadster launched into space (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elon_Musk%27s_Tesla_Roadster), whether the possibility that someone snuck a teapot inside it have significantly raised the odds of Russell's teapot... :-)

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Scott
May 22

Fist bump.

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OY
OY’s Substack
May 21

Not sure you really want to rid yourself of the external world, other minds, the "existence" of unobservables, etc

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Scott
May 22

Not at all; datastarve would kill me quickly, I think. The external world and other minds are testable, though; remember high school geometry?

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beleester
May 21·edited May 21

Specific claims about demons can be tested - i.e., if someone says that demonic possession makes you start levitating and speaking Latin, then you can observe that that doesn't actually happen.

(Yes, yes, the demons could be hiding, induction is impossible. But you can demonstrate that it doesn't happen any time you could observe it, and that's good enough for most purposes.)

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 22

The book apparently made no such claims about the demon's powers. If it did, as you say, such claims would be testable.

We know Newton's theory of gravity is wrong, but we often still use it because it is right enough in some circumstances for our purposes. It's a useful paradigm in those situations. In the same way, if it is useful to think of a psychosis as caused by demonic possession, such that performing an exorcism ritual on the patient cures them, it makes no difference at all whether you can detect the demon in other ways. If the result is the same whether it's a demon or the placebo effect, what difference does it make?

On the other hand, if there IS a difference one can point to, maybe we can find a way to determine which it is, and get closer to the truth.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

If there were some transmission mechanism proposed for "catching" demons, then wouldn't partitioning the population into those with greater or lesser odds of "catching" a demon be expected to correlate with demonic symptoms? It isn't a double-blinded RCT, but it would be _something_. This would be sort-of analogous to the classic experiment showing that mosquitoes transmit malaria ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2825508/ ).

>In the meantime several Italian workers were already on the trail. Bignami had suggested in 1896 that mosquitoes might transmit malaria by inoculation but it wasn't until 1898 that he and Grassi, who were fortunate to have access to sites where malaria was present near Rome and in Sicily, produced the final proof when they fed local Anopheles claviger mosquitoes on infected patients and subsequently transmitted the infection to uninfected individuals via the bite of these mosquitoes [38].

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darwin
May 21

The reason is Occam's Razor.

MPD exists? A single brain can have multiple network structures that produce something like 'personalities' that each have their own names and voices and can 'take over' at different times? That's kind of weird and surprising, but ultimately it's just something weird about human brains, which are something we don't understand well anyway and certainly have enough computational complexity to host a process like that.

Demons exist? That means Heaven and Hell exist? Supernatural phenomena that no scientists has ever been able to observe but which can influence minds and the physical world exist? Sentient agents with no brain or other physical instantiation exist? For that to be true, we need to overturn *everything we know* about science, metaphysics, and the nature of reality.

Occam's Razor places a really really heavy tax on demons, that extends far beyond the realm of psychology itself. Less so on a lot of other explanations.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21·edited May 21

> For that to be true, we need to overturn *everything we know* about science, metaphysics, and the nature of reality.

Not at all. The only thing that needs to be thrown out is the notion of axiomatic materialism.

> Supernatural phenomena that no scientists has ever been able to observe but which can influence minds and the physical world exist?

Plenty of scientists have observed — and even attempted to measure, analyze, and quantify, with varying degrees of success — spiritual phenomena. They tend to get called cranks and psuedoscientists and whatnot, because axiomatic materialism a priori precludes such claims being taken seriously.

It's the ultimate in question-begging circular logic:

1) Nothing outside the realm of the physical exists in reality, therefore your claim is false.

2) All claims of supernatural phenomena have been found to be false, therefore materialism is true.

I've seen self-proclaimed rationalists use this *exact* formula, completely un-self-consciously, more times than I'd care to remember, never seeming to notice that all they've done is use their axiom to demonstrate the validity of the axiom according to itself. When people accidentally use claims derived from Euclid's Parallel Postulate to "prove" that the Parallel Postulate can be proven from first principles, people notice the circular logic. But somehow this specific piece of circular logic always seems to slip through the cracks.

> Occam's Razor places a really really heavy tax on demons, that extends far beyond the realm of psychology itself. Less so on a lot of other explanations.

Remember, Occam was a priest. He would be aghast at this misuse of his principle.

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darwin
May 21

When I talk about observing supernatural phenomena, I'm not talking about their behavioral consequents, I'm talking about their method of action.

There is definitely an observed behavior where people act like they've been possessed by demons. You can describe that real observable phenomenon in a lot of detail, and scientific study of it is valid.

But for a demon to possess a person, there has to be *a direct causal mechanism*. Sight is mediated by photons, heat is a measure of molecular motion, tires work by friction and torque, etc.

There's no direct mechanism that we've ever been able to observe and measure that could cause demonic possession. Nor anything within the physical laws that explain everything we've been able to observe that suggests a mechanism which could exist.

For such a mechanism to exist, you have to radically degrade our model of the universe. Which would predict all kinds of other phenomenon that we don't observe, in addition to being far more complex.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

You're still trapped inside the confines of axiomatic materialism.

If, rather than assuming that a bunch of chemical processes within the brain is all there is to "the self," you accept that "there is a spirit in man," a non-material existence that uses the brain as its interface to drive the body, then it's not at all implausible to accept the idea of other spirits trying to hijack the body.

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darwin
May 21

The scientific method is the same whether the world is materialist or dualist or idealist.

Events have causes, things that exist are observable. Whether the thing we observe is 'ultimately' material or ideal makes no difference.

If you want to posit a world where causality doesn't exist or where we can't observe real phenomena that cause observable outcomes, then you have to explain why the rest of the world looks like those things exist and those assumptions keep correctly explaining and predicting everything else we can reliably observe, and you have to come up with a model of metaphysic that explains why the world looks so predictable and regular despite those things not existing.

None of this has anything to do with materialism vs dualism vs idealism. The notion that your observations need to be explained by a model of an external universe that would produce them, and that more complex models are less likely than more complex models if they both explain the observations equally well, is more fundamental than the question of what the universe is made of.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

Ah, now I see where you're coming from.

This one's actually pretty simple if you understand basic economics and why it so consistently proves lacking in any large degree of predictive power. Economists are often spoken of as having "physics envy" because they look at the data, make their models, predict what the economy is going to do in the next year, and then it does something completely different. Not the prediction, not 180-degrees-off "the prediction was exactly wrong" either, but typically anywhere from 30-120 degrees off from the prediction, so to speak.

Physics is, broadly speaking, the science of analyzing inanimate objects. If you tell me how heavy the cannonball is, how much powder you're using, the angle of the gun, and the vector of the wind, I can place a target on the ground right under the spot that the ball will land, and the ball will hit it 10 times out of 10. But try to predict the behavior of *people,* and that predictive power just falls apart, because people make choices rather than simply following predetermined paths in response to external stimuli.

> you have to come up with a model of metaphysic that explains why the world looks so predictable and regular despite those things not existing.

The simple explanation is: it *doesn't* look predictable and regular at all, at least not at the points where you have conscious, decision-making entities involved. The metaphysical term is "free will," and the whole problem here is that it consistently proves stubbornly resistant to reliable modeling.

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Moon Moth
May 21

From Dune: "Think you of the fact that a deaf person cannot hear. Then, what deafness may we not all possess? What senses do we lack that we cannot see and cannot hear another world all around us?"

Computer programs have interfaces, but if I run a program with a debugger attached, I can look inside at its memory, and alter whatever I like. Hackers can do similar things on programs that don't have debuggers attached. Games do it for speed runs and stuff like that. It might seem like wizardry to someone who's only been an end-user on systems that someone else maintains, but that's because their limited experience hasn't prepared them to understand the underlying structure.

(Do we have any hard evidence of this happening in reality? AFAIK, no. It's mostly limited to perturbations in human neural nets, which we don't understand anyway, so I agree with Occam's Razor here.)

> you have to radically degrade our model of the universe

I wouldn't say "degrade". We've had several revolutions in the past, where a new model superseded an old model because it explained phenomena that the old model didn't, and sometimes that was because we had developed newer and more sensitive instruments to detect those phenomena.

That said, I think we're headed in a different direction. We're starting to develop techniques that can be used to analyze AI neural nets. We'll get better and better at those, and eventually start trying to apply the same things to human neural nets. And Iong term, I think we'll develop more understanding of how these self-perpetuating patterns develop, and why people keep being able to regress Bing chat back into Sydney.

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Tatu Ahponen
Tatu Ahponen
May 21

>For that to be true, we need to overturn *everything we know* about science, metaphysics, and the nature of reality.

Well, why not? We've already done that at least once to get to the world where the standard explanation for the phenomenon described by Scott is "sure, they're demons".

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darwin
May 21

We overturn everything we know when the evidence is strong enough to make that the most likely explanation.

But this ain't that kind of evidence.

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Edmund
May 21

Very interesting! Was surprised to find no result ctr+f-ing Tulpas, which seem relevant as an example of previously-unitary people crafting a personified "voice in their head" on purpose, in many cases without adverse effects and without buying into a supernatural explanation. Seems to be IFS for fun?

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I agree that would have been a good example to talk about here. I do discuss it a bit more in Part III of https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/contra-resident-contrarian-on-unfalsifiable

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Edmund
May 21

Ah, thanks!

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Aristides
Serving the Politeia
May 21

As a parent, I sometimes wonder what the best theory of mind to teach a child is? This review highlights a big negative of multiple part theory of mind, and it might be best in general to have a similar theory of mind as your western’s peers that is individualized. But I also see extremely high teen mental illness rates and think that some theory of mind must be better?

I also wonder what historical cultural had the best mental health? Might need to go before WWI just because of the increase in PTSD in modern warfare.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I'm leaning towards "don't". Like yes, they'll absorb the western theory of mind in bits and pieces, but I think this is less bad than deliberately encouraging them to pay attention to their internal landscape.

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Mike Amory
Not Funny
May 21

I'd love to hear you expand on this last part.

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drosophilist
May 21

There was a piece in the NYT on how teaching American schoolchildren some basics of paying attention to your mental state actually resulted in their becoming worse off/more anxious. Too much self-awareness is a dangerous thing?

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o11o1
May 21

Could also be a matter of "a little knowledge is a dangerous thing", where the unit is a sort of in-passing intro without follow-up or guidance

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Spruce
May 21

There's a whole book on this called "Bad Therapy", with an entry in the currently open ACX book review contest and a pretty damning review over at thingofthings. That said, there may be a grain of truth in the whole matter.

Also, in the words of an old British comedy show "Of course too much is bad for you! That's what 'too much' means, you ****!"

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Mirka Misáková
May 29

Because they may notice things like "there is no free will" too soon? Or can you pls elaborate?

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CompCat
May 21

Why teach children "What to think" ? They'll be taught plenty of that. What children will generally never have enough of is a cultivation of curiosity, honesty and courage-- the world generally takes those away tacitly or explicitly.

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Moon Moth
May 21

I personally think PTSD has less to do with "theory of mind", and more to do with lying. The more people have a clear understanding of the world around them, the less they'll get PTSD, and the more they're living in a web of "noble" lies, the more they'll get PTSD when they finally find out what's going on. Especially when they find out in a traumatic situation, and then the rest of the society prefers to maintain the noble lie. My guess is that it's probably got something to do with mass media, coordinated propaganda, and non-humanocentric ideology, so I'm not sure that pre-20th-century methods would still work in this new environment.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

On an only marginally-related note, having gone back to your review of Jaynes, I came across this bit:

> As you go about your day, you hear a voice that tells you what to do, praises you for your successes, criticizes you for your failures, and tells you what decisions to make in difficult situations.

Closely followed by:

> Jaynes has done some research on the imaginary friend phenomenon, and argues that a better term would be “hallucinatory friend” – children see and hear these entities vividly.

As someone who has been "blessed" with a combination of aphantasia and lack of internal monologue (at least of the sort described above), I'm sitting here, shaking my head, asking WT Actual F?

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I did a survey on this, and found somewhere less than 1% of people agreeing to this statement.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

Which one? The one about hearing an internal commentary?

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

Sorry, no, the one about hallucinating your imaginary friend.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

Gotcha.

Since I've been polling people close to me regarding their ability to visualise recently, I've noted that some of them claim to be able to picture things very vividly. I wonder if it may be that the line between "very vivid imagining" and "hallucination" may be hard to draw, when we're talking about other people's experiences.

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Christina the StoryGirl
Ask a Vulcan-American
May 21

What are your dreams like? Are they ever set in locations you don't recall visiting?

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

My dreams are rather vivid and colourful* (an interesting contrast to my waking lack of visual imagination), and yes, I would say that most of them are set in locations that I have never visited, because they don't exist - to the point that I can tell that even places that are supposed to represent locations from my life are very different, like my house containing a completely different set of rooms.

---

* I'm told that this isn't a given, which was another one of those "Huh, it'd be a funny ol' world if we were all alike." moments for me.

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o11o1
May 21

Is the dream version of your house consistent with itself? That is, the same layout as in previous dreams?

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Faza (TCM)
May 23

No. As far as I can remember, there has never been an occasion where any of the place that I had lived in at some point, that came up in my dreams, resembled their real-life counterparts in any but the crudest details.

In fact, I find it quite amazing how the dreaming mind is able to convince itself that everything is perfectly normal, despite all evidence to the contrary.

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o11o1
May 23

I wasn't asking it it resembled the real world house, but the dream house in -other- dreams. Or is it a freshly generated house each time?

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Faza (TCM)
May 24

My bad. I understood what you meant to ask, but didn't do a good job of answering.

The answer is "no". The layout is always different.

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magic9mushroom
May 21

There is also the issue that most people have poor memory of their early childhood when this tends to happen.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

Yeah, I expect this discrepancy is best explained by "fuzzy categories".

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MichaeL Roe
May 21

One answer: the distinction is easy, because you are controlling your visualisations, and know that you are controlling them.

Problem: hypnagogic hallucinations. Probably, not everyone sees this. But if you have this experience, the rapidly shifting and changing stuff you see when the lights are out (its dark, cutting out the light from real things) and you are trying to sleep. Both appear to be essential elements. But,, in any case, these may not be entirely under your control/ Still: source tracking. You are aware that are not real.

Some psychiatry textbooks get into a tangle arguing whether hypnagogic hallucinations are the same thing as psychotic hallucinations, or something entirely different.

A possible theory, that some of those authors neglect. If you think that drug induced hallucinations and psychotic hallucinations are in fact the same thing, because you think the drug is targeting the same brain function as schizophrenia, then you should at least consider the possibility that the onset of sleep shuts down the same brain functions that are also implicated in hallucinogenic drugs, etc.

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Faza (TCM)
May 21·edited May 21

Which is why I specifically restricted my point to other people's experiences.

You might be able to tell whether your visualizations are real or not - by means of control, if nothing else - though I note that - being otherwise aphantasic - I occasionally experience brief visualizations as I am falling asleep. I am unable to control them in the slightest, but I am also perfectly aware of the fact that they aren't real (to clarify: I am aware of it as it is happening). However, that tells you nothing of the nature of other people's visualizations. Even if you have a body of experience regarding what it feels like to visualize and hallucinate (personally, I have neither), how - if at all - that matches up with what other people report is mostly guesswork.

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MichaeL Roe
May 21

a fun one: discussions of aphantasia often talk about visualising the story in a book you're reading.

Personally, I cannot read and visualize simultaneously. The visualizations would get in the way of the printed words on the page that I am trying to read. I can rapidly alternate between them, however People's personal experiences seem to vary quite widely.

But, if someone with aphantasia wonders how on Earth non-aphantasics can distinguish visualisations from hallucinations... they appear in a distinct space, are controllable, or at the very least have what the psychiatrists call "source tracking" ... for most people...

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Faza (TCM)
May 21

I'm pointing out that a second party would have the devil's time establishing whether a child is actually hallucinating or just has a vivid imagination.

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Nancy Lebovitz
Input Junkie
May 21

I want a look at how the sense of something being real works. It obviously comes and goes and isn't completely reliable, but it's fairly good and what is it anyway?

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

Hmm... I think that my ability to visualize has declined somewhat over the years (I'm 65 now). "Hallucination" seems to me to have too negative a connotation for this. E.g. if one is looking at a geometric puzzle, and visualizes where to put an additional line or set of lines as part of solving the puzzle, is "hallucination" really a good term for this process?

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Faza (TCM)
May 23

I suspect that "hallucination" is generally a bad term for any situation where the parts of the brain responsible for making sense of what your eyes are feeding them aren't seriously misfiring (either for intrinsic, or substance-induced reasons).

However, getting what it feels like to you across to someone else may be tricky, especially if you don't have a good vocabulary or a good amount of knowledge or experience to fall back on - for instance, if you are a child.

So, while you might be able to clarify, on being interviewed that yes, you can imagine something or someone in vivid detail, but it's not like a hallucination or anything (in other words you can easily differentiate between what you see and what you imagine), a child attempting to do so might not even be aware that such a thing as hallucination exists, nor how it might manifest.

So the child describes just how vivid their "perception" of their imaginary friend is, and the incautious scientist records it as the child hallucinating their friend.

A game of telephone, in other words.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 23

Many Thanks! That sounds plausible.

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Christina the StoryGirl
Ask a Vulcan-American
May 21·edited May 21

I can't remember where that particular survey was, and if it covered childhood imaginary friends. Did people report *literally* seeing and hearing entities?

As a child, I 100% believed stuffed animals were conscious entities that could move around if no human was present, and that some white horses were secret unicorns in captivity.

But I was utterly crushed that imaginary friends didn't work like in TV and movies, where the friend is audible and visible to the imaginer (and the audience, of course). I tried multiple times to order up an imaginary friend and none ever happened. It was always extremely obvious that no one else was actually there.

I always assumed everyone else had this kind of experience with imaginary friends and was faking seeing / hearing them.

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AntimemeticsDivisionDirector
May 21

See when I was a kid I pretended to be able to see imaginary friends, precisely because that same childrens TV had convinced me that this was A Thing and I was weird because I didn't have one.

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Christina the StoryGirl
Ask a Vulcan-American
May 22

I'd love to know how many other people did that as children. While I had the capacity to believe in fantasy, I was also pretty literal about the real world! When the promised fantasy didn't work in real life *exactly* like it did in media, I immediately concluded imaginary friends weren't "real" - not for me, and not for anyone else, either. I never believed or played along with anyone else's imaginary friends because they were obviously not actually real.

I have no idea why I was so confident no one else had an imaginary friend, either.

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Arrk Mindmaster
May 21

Typo alert: "Trying to exorcising"

Additionally, a couple of quote blocks have typos, but since they're quoted I don't know if they're in the book or not:

"Now I was really scared Visions of malpractice danced in my head." (missing period)

"I have folloed this woman"

"very lucky and fortune person"

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

Fixed.

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William H Stoddard
May 21

A long time friend of mine, back when she was aspiring to be a folk singer, had a song, "Invite Them In," inspired by her understanding of Buddhism, in which she recommended dealing with demons by compassion and friendliness. I'm not sure that would work with all demons, any more than I would try it with all human beings or all other animals; some are just too dangerous. But it's one possible approach.

That same woman is a player in one of my current roleplaying campaigns, an urban fantasy based on shared dreams, where the player characters have discovered that at least some forms of "mental illness" (for example, one case of paranoid schizophrenia) result from having one's mind occupied by an intrusive psychic entity, and dealing with that entity can relieve the problems. I reserve judgment on this idea's validity in the Primary World, but it certainly supports an entertaining narrative.

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Feral Finster
May 21

IIRC, according to some of the medieval/Renaissance era catalogues of demons, some of the demons were hoping to get back into God's good graces.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

>A long time friend of mine, back when she was aspiring to be a folk singer, had a song, "Invite Them In," inspired by her understanding of Buddhism, in which she recommended dealing with demons by compassion and friendliness.

Cool! Allison Lonsdale's https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9uLBO03YR_Y ?

I really like her "Unclean" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1FSqgb9ZfDw

albeit I fit into the

>The doctors and priests who refrain from the feast

( though I'm actually a retired programmer )

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William H Stoddard
May 21

Yeah, that's her. My own favorite of her songs is "Grandmother's Place," with all its little jokes about mythic figures. I'm delighted that you know of her.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

Many Thanks!

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PaleBleenEyes
May 21

I literally just opened substack as a palate cleanser after reading The Screwtape Letters and getting delusion-of-reference heebie-jeebies. Thats enough reading for today

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Theophylline
May 21·edited May 21

Welcome to the psychic field :) I made a comment just yesterday in which I happened to mention one of the psychiatrist Scott Peck's books and how he believed in demons, and now our Scott has mentioned Scott Peck while reviewing another book that's more or less about the intersection of psychology and demons.

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Lucas Van Berkel
Open Secret
May 21

Many interesting parallels with L Ron Hubbard's work. In Dianetics he referred to the source of some mental "abberations" being the product of "demon circuits". At the time he stressed that they weren't real demons, it was simply a handy metaphor, as they seemed to behave like separate entities, with names and characters if you interrogated them.

A couple of decades later they resurfaced as the Big Secret of the OT levels - we are all populated by degraded beings inhabiting our bodies which must be audited away - at great expense of course - in order to free ourselves.

As someone who was dumb enough and unfortunate enough to find himself deep in that rabbit hole many years ago and managed to climb back out to the fresh air and sunshine, I can vouch for the self-fulfilling nature of many of these characters of the inner world.

The stated goal of Hubbard's work was to free the person's attention from their own mind and bring them to full awareness and alertness in present time. In actuality, it drives people deeper and deeper into themselves, chasing shadows of shadows in a baroque architecture that only ever grows more vivid and threatening.

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Alex
Risky Kvetch
May 21

I also thought of what I've read about Scientology while reading this. A few years ago I came across some amazing article about what the introductory scientology courses are like, the ones that masquerade as public speaking courses. (There are plenty of articles about them online but the one I'm thinking of was better than what seems to come up, in terms of analyzing what's going on. Wish I could find it.) It seems to operate on the same plane as a lot of this stuff.

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Andrew
May 21

I noticed the similarity to Scientology in the linked post about Leverage Research:

"In a debugging session, you’d be led through a series of questions or attentional instructions with goals like working through introspective blocks, processing traumatic memories, discovering the roots of internal conflict, “back-chaining” through your impulses to the deeper motivations at play, figuring out the roots of particular powerlessness-inducing beliefs, mapping out the structure of your beliefs, or explicating irrationalities."

They were doing this to each other for 8 hours a day. Sounds a lot like auditing right?

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Nancy Lebovitz
Input Junkie
May 22

Jon Atack (youtube channel, books) says that Scientology promised freedom from the ordinary constraints of life, but just got people more and more trapped. Some people do get out, but he says it's the hardest cult to recover from.

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Xpym
May 22

Does he have an explanation of why? From what I've gathered, Hubbard was a hack and a dabbler, not exactly evil mastermind material. Did he just blunder into the nuclear-grade cult recipe?

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Nancy Lebovitz
Input Junkie
May 22

I'm not sure, but I think Atack's take is that Hubbard wasn't good news to start with, and the promise of having full control of one's mind and circumstances was something that worked to hook people.

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Ben
May 24

the secret sauce of scientology is that they got some really rich early converts and remained "kooky but tolerated" pre-internet. The amount of money they had to throw at lawyers (or private black ops operations) makes them hard to stop, and frankly, a lot of Americans seem to assume they must be somehow legitimate otherwise how would they have so much money?

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Charlotte Dune
Charlotte Dune's Lagoon
May 21

Fascinating. Would love to read your thoughts on RRT-Rapid Resolution Therapy next.

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Nemoomen
May 21·edited May 21

I think there's also something very interesting in how the IFS model (of Self, firefighter/exile, and manager) mirrors the Platonic tripartite soul.

In my understanding of the model the exile(s) are fragments of the self that long for reunification with the whole (which is eternal and beyond being (Plotinus’ Hen and Polloi - forgive my lack of Greek characters)

The Firefighter has the most to do with appetite and using appetite for sensation to remedy against feeling hurt (in the model a firefighter might push the patient to drink, or self harm and is reactive in a bodily way against the threat of painful experiencing)

The Manager maps onto the Thymos, and uses achievement, honor, organization to rule the client but without illuminating wisdom, kindness and direction of Reason. The Manager is again more concerned with avoiding feeling the fragmentation than with the Truth.

The framing of the Exile as a splinter of the self helps to solve the problem of psychic injury in Platonism (why are we in the cave…?) without resorting to the Fall.

Regarding the Daemon and Legacy Burdens: My sense is they are very different phenomena. Legacy burdens are straightforwardly an analogue for intergenerational trauma. Whether intergenerational trauma actually exists (in my experience of my own family and the fallout we've experienced from fleeing Europe circa WW2 yes, but maybe that's a narrative we've constructed without base) is arguable but I think that IT is Schwartz’ referent.

The unattached burdens are much trickier to square, but maybe useful in trying understand them in the context of the model would be: IFS is already considering dissociation to be a spectrum. Where extreme dissociative identity disorder (which is mostly seen clinically in young survivors of incest, CSA, and organized abuse) is on spectrum with much milder hurt. For example the model might consider the experience of going home for a holiday and feeling like a teenager again on the same spectrum as losing time.

In the same way, the model (and this is my theorizing more than anything else) could consider the psychosis experience of unattached burdens to be on the same spectrum as full blown psychosis (which I think is best described in Annie Roger's Incandescent Alphabets).

If, in fact, we are always already in a constant dialogue of fragmentation and reunification, perhaps also there's a thread of psychosis experience that runs below the surface in everything we do as well?

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vorkosigan1
May 21

Terming the firefighter and exiles the single under the seems pretty distorting, no?

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vorkosigan1
May 21

Whoops- terming the firefighter and the exile as a single entity seems pretty distorting, no?

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Nemoomen
May 21

I group them together because as I understand the model, the firefighter manifests as a response to the exiling, almost as two half of the same thing

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Nemoomen
May 21

Although I am certain I could have been clearer :)

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Jerden
May 21

Interesting that non Christians are now joining the debate - are demons simply how we used to understand mental illness, or is mental illness merely a manifestation of demonic possession? If nothing else, it could be psychologically useful to reject the parts of yourself that wish you and the people you care about harm. I am somewhat sceptical of the claim that psychotherapeutic exorcism is a once-and-done deal though, I feel like certain issues would be harder to resolve.

As soon as I heard about internal family system I immediately thought about how I used to personify my self loathing as a malevolent entity that hated me, and I don't really think that helped me much, because it had a lot of reasonable arguments in favour of me being a terrible person. I'm pretty sure that was just an expression of my own unreasonably high standards, it took me a while to accept that I wasn't ever going to be perfect, but I could probably have been convinced it was a demon at the time.

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Tony
May 21

Not gonna lie, this sounds like some Persona 4 type stuff

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ray
May 21

Guy who's never heard of psychology outside the extremely attenuated Jung in the Persona series: this is giving me major Persona vibes

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Tony
May 22

Of course I heard of Jung, I'm just commenting on the childish videogame-like nature of it all

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Daniel Washburn
May 21·edited May 21

Can someone link me to a source for footnote five's comment, "genetic evidence, which shows that evolution has been selecting against schizophrenia genes for at least 40,000 years" ? This sounds very interesting.

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Doctor Mist
May 22

Googling the obvious phrase will give you some hits. One that’s pretty accessible is https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/the-evolution-of-schizophrenia.amp

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hdvill
May 21·edited May 21

Everyone is traumatized these days. If you don't have big trauma, you can have small trauma. If you don't have PTSD, you can get C-PTSD. Oh you were not abused? But your dad did scream at you, remember? Great, you can have trauma. Welcome

Does anyone know when/why this trend started? IFS, Body keeps the score, Gabor Mate (ok, this one clear has trauma, just look at him)... all started from this trauma trend.

The backlash on proven methods also seem to come from that. Change my self-defeating distorted views of myself and the world through evidence and behavior? C'mon... that's too simple. Let me look inside and "discover" my demons.

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Nemoomen
May 21

Freud's seduction theory was the first formulation of what could be considered "trauma" (the theory that premature sexual experience causes hysteria)

Trauma as a category at least since the 80s (Judith Herman's Trauma and Recovery came out in 1992 which introduces complex PTSD)

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hdvill
May 21

Thanks. It is certainly not new, but the idea that everyone is a at least a bit traumatized is new, isn't it? Just to make clear, I know that trauma is real and the pain it causes is tremendous. My question is if it is healthy to treat everything as trauma.

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Nemoomen
May 21

I think so,

It seems to have become trendy as a diagnosis in the late 2000s ? And certainly the idea that Trauma is anything that's upsetting (instead of Trauma being a response to overwhelming fear for one's life in an unavoidable way) I think does everyone a huge disservice

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

Agreed, especially as the redefined notion of trauma is largely antithetical to antifragility. If you redefine stress and discomfort — which are vital to proper mental and emotional development — as "trauma" to be avoided and shielded against, it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, delivering people without the emotional fortitude to avoid being traumatized by what well-adjusted people would shrug off as minor irritations.

Treating people as if they were fragile, rather than antifragile, is one of the worst abuses you can possibly perpetrate against them.

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Kayla
May 23

"Trauma" used to be a bad thing (fitting within a specific class of very bad things) that caused post-traumatic symptoms. Now, thanks in part to Herman and the other cPTSD advocates, "trauma" is dissociated from post-traumatic symptoms, so that a person can claim to be "traumatized" with zero conventional PTSD symptoms.

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Nemoomen
May 23

That's not my reading of C-ptsd at all, my understanding (and it's been a few years since I read Herman) is that C-ptsd involves all the major hallmarks of regular PTSD plus additional cognitive distortions and longer term effects

In my understanding it was invented as a more severe category to differentiate the symptoms of long term incest (the population Herman worked with), CSA and torture (in a POW type situation) from regular PTSD from things like a single incident sexual assault or mugging

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metachirality
metachirality’s things of inter…
May 24

Yeah, isn't cPTSD supposed to be *worse*?

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Xpym
May 22

Maybe it's connected to the prevalence of the "therapy culture"? In my relatively backward parts, going to a shrink just isn't a thing that "normal" people do, and the threshold for not qualifying as "normal" is pretty high. It would be interesting to see the timeline of how that proliferated in the first world.

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flusterclick
May 26

Jon Ronson has a podcast series which posits that Bessel van der Kolk's "The Body Keeps the Score" brought Trauma to the American masses and many current cultural things (e.g. trigger warnings) are downstream of that book's success.

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Mark
May 21

Maybe everyone does have a little trauma?

If I choose, I can look around my body and see minor scars from various events in my life. Why should my mind be different?

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hdvill
May 21·edited May 21

I guess that's a matter of semantics. Do your body scars severely impact your day-to-day functioning and relationships? As Nemoonen said below, trauma shouldn't be "anything that's upsetting"

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Mark
May 22·edited May 22

My scars don't affect me. But I know people with physical issues, like joint problems, which do impact their day-to-day functioning. Other people in the world are "vegetables" due to their physically issues. It's a spectrum. I think it's logical to see physical issues as being of one kind but distinguished in their severity and need for treatment. Similarly for mental issues.

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jseliger
May 21

“Does anyone know when/why this trend started”

Tumblr was founded in 2007.

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Scott
May 21

YouTube 2005, too, yeah.

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Theophylline
May 21·edited May 21

This happens with most psychological labels I think because psychological phenomena tend to have fuzzy boundaries and non-falsifiable subjective elements. In the beginning a label is created to refer to a set of especially specific, obvious, and extreme cases, but the description of those cases doesn't perfectly capture what's going on with them. Then when other people get ahold of the label and description but don't have immediate access to the especially specific, obvious, and extreme cases that inspired it, they're liable to start applying the label to whatever is the most similar person or experience they do have access to. Give this process enough time and the label will become noticeably diluted or at least expanded. This has definitely happened with Autism, OCD, and just about every label ever created to refer to especially unintelligent people (in which case it's an example of the euphemism treadmill).

I propose calling this the "fuzzy diagnosis dilution treadmill" but I'm open to better alternatives to the "fuzzy diagnosis dilution" part.

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Mike Amory
Not Funny
May 21

I think this stems from us trying to figure out trauma as a concept and swinging to a lot of extremes.

Like I think all the following can be true at the same time.

Trauma is a real thing

Trauma is a spectrum versus a binary

Trauma can be used as a signifier by people to get attention or support

Trauma also has the capability to allow us to grow or be hindered (High risk vs high reward, love the concept of antifragility as it relates to this and think the discussion about how people can grow via trauma is under-discussed).

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TGGP
May 21

The term you seem to be reaching for is "concept creep". https://gwern.net/doc/sociology/2020-haslam.pdf

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Feral Finster
May 21

"Everyone is traumatized these days. If you don't have big trauma, you can have small trauma. If you don't have PTSD, you can get C-PTSD. Oh you were not abused? But your dad did scream at you, remember? Great, you can have trauma. Welcome"

Because, for better or worse, in contemporary society, victim status entitles the claimant to certain benefits, at least for the right type of victim.

Hence humans carefully cultivate, curate and nurture their victim status.

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walruss
walruss’s Substack
May 21

I'd like to disagree just because too many people are agreeing :P.

Our personalities are shaped by our experiences and our mind's reactions to those experiences. Until recently anyone who couldn't rise above bad experience was considered weak and worthy of scorn in some sense. We're undergoing a pendulum swing in the opposite direction where we admit the self-obvious fact that our past creates us, at least in part. There are bad results to that - people have incentive to make themselves weaker and less tolerant of stress. But there are also bad results to the "get over it" narrative. Perhaps try to have a little compassion and a little patience with that idea.

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Moon Moth
May 21

> I'd like to disagree just because too many people are agreeing :P.

*applause*

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darwin
May 21

I think this is a common phenomenon where society doesn't have a name for something and doesn't discuss it, then someone makes a name for the most extreme version of that thing which is really visually obvious to anyone looking and everyone starts talking about it, then everyone starts using that same language for the less extreme versions that they didn't know how to talk about before but really wanted to.

Like, think in terms of autism, or adhd, or just the whole 'neurotypical' thing in general: in the past, we really didn't acknowledge cognitive diversity very much, and a lot of people felt alienated by their experiences that no one else seemed to acknowledge or share.

Then we started diagnosing the most extreme cases as 'autistic' or 'ADHD' or whatever, and people recognized themselves as having much-less-extreme but qualitatively similar experiences which they'd never been able to talk about and get people to understand or respect before, so they used that same language and suddenly they find other people with the same experiences and society acknowledges them as valid and tries to accommodate them more.

I don't know of a term for this process, but it seems very real and common to me. I think a lot of socjus things like 'opression' or 'privilege' or etc follow similar patterns.

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Edmund
May 21

*Is* it implausible that everyone is traumatized? Human existence is pretty traumatizing overall.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

I, personally, have had a rather lucky existence. The worst stress that I've had is overshadowed by orders of magnitude by some of the events that have happened to other commenters here. So I'd say that I, and people like me, have not been traumatized by any reasonable interpretation of the term.

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Edmund
May 23

But you are bound to a physical body which suffers and might die at any moment, stuck in a world where you are witness to wars and genocides and poverty and I don't know what else with no power to alter them. Yes, you are rather lucky *in comparison to many*, but isn't that like saying the one guy in the mediaeval village who made it through the black plague in good health had "a rather lucky existence"? Or to use the quote that I had in the back of my mind (from R. A. Wilson):

> “Under the present brutal and primitive conditions on this planet, every person you meet should be regarded as one of the walking wounded. We have never seen a man or woman not slightly deranged by either anxiety or grief. We have never seen a totally sane human being.”

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

Wilson is not only wrong, he's *horrifyingly* wrong. His take on this should be considered a destructive mind virus.

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Edmund
May 23·edited May 23

That's a bold way to put it. I mean, I don't even buy the idea in its strongest form -- and let me make clear that I view Wilson as one of the "black boxes" emitting a lot of crazy ideas as well as a few good ones that Scott wrote about in one of his old posts, not as any kind of reliable thinker overall. But it seems a basic hypothesis worthy of consideration, and indeed, Scott himself espoused similar sentiments in https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/the-psychopolitics-of-trauma . Would you mind elaborating?

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

The best part from this article:

> I’m nervous about the creeping expansion of “trauma”. On the one hand, it’s good that people who feel traumatized by things can have access to trauma-related resources and have other people respect/validate their suffering. On the other, it might be dangerous to create an expectation of traumatic consequences for minor wrongs.

And that's precisely Wilson's problem here. He has a massively expansionist definition of a concept that is in great need of being narrowed. Trauma is not stress. Trauma is not discomfort. Trauma *very much is not* a bad experience that happened to you, and screw the people who put that into the DSM! They're a big part of the problem here.

Trauma is lasting damage, and nothing less than lasting damage is trauma. Trauma is when something bad happens to you *and it breaks you,* at least a little bit. Two people can have the same bad experience happen to them, and one becomes traumatized and the other gets over it and goes on with their life just fine.

This raises the obvious question, "why does one person become traumatized and the other does not? What's the difference between them?" And the best answer we have is "past bad experiences that have been faced successfully." It's known as antifragility, and is basically a formal, scientific expression of the notion that "that which does not kill me makes me stronger."

Antifragility is a fundamental principle of human development. It's not at all controversial that this is true for our bodies; what is exercise if not deliberate, prolonged, low-level abuse specifically because we know it's good for us in the long run. But it's just as true for our psyches, and this is where we run into trouble, because if that which does not kill me makes me stronger, then being shielded from that which would not have killed me keeps me weak.

Treating people as if they are fragile, rather than antifragile, is one of the worst forms of abuse it is possible to perpetrate against them. And that is the essence of Wilson's claim here: that the stresses of ordinary life universally traumatize all people, rather than that they provide opportunities for them to grow and become better.

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Edmund
May 23

Thank you for the detailed expansion. I think there are two valid issues at work in your argument. One about semantic creep ("trauma" in the narrow sense means a specific thing, it's useful to have a word about that thing that doesn't apply to everybody), the other about optics/cognitohazards (maybe telling people that the real world is so awful it should traumatize them will cause them to actually be more traumatized).

As concerns the first, I agree this is true and that we should find another word for the broader thing, but the broader thing might still be a real thing deserving of its own coinage! "These new lands aren't actually part of the Asian continent, stop calling those people Indians, that's just confusing" is a valid statement but doesn't disprove the existence of the American landmass.

As to the second, again, your argument is true but seems orthogonal to the truth of the claim. Ideas can be true *and* dangerous mind-viruses, simultaneously. At some point you do need to talk about the true thing -- you just have to make sure you do it with other intellectuals who've been vaccinated against the mind-virus, instead of shouting it from the rooftops.

The most common version of this (which I'm sure is very familiar to Scott) is that there are plenty of people who have clinical depression which you would worsen if you're too quick to agree with their self-pitying about how much their life sucks… but also, their life does objectively suck. The solution to this problem is to not talk about it *to the depressed guy*, but if you're talking to a mutual friend about ways to maybe improve the guy's life, separate from trying to cure his depression, you should be able to say "yeah, I agree, Gary's life does indeed suck, let's do a fundraiser to help him out" without worrying that it will get back to him and worsen his depression.

Similarly, "the base level of awfulness humans experience is nonzero, and might be enough to screw with everybody's head at least a *little* relative to what the average citizen's mental health would look like in a utopia, even if we try very hard to toughen them up and/or make them look at the bright side"… feels like it could be true even if it's unwise to call random people's attention to that fact. And if it's true, then verifying it seems important, both for purposes of setting a target for what level of mental health we can realistically achieve, and for how optimistic we can be about the impact on people's quality of life if we *did* manage to end war/poverty/death/???.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

> there are plenty of people who have clinical depression which you would worsen if you're too quick to agree with their self-pitying about how much their life sucks… but also, their life does objectively suck.

My go-to response to this is, "yes, what happened to you sucks. It wasn't your fault. But you're still responsible for your own choices." Empathy is important, and it's equally important not to let empathy cross the line into enabling.

> Similarly, "the base level of awfulness humans experience is nonzero, and might be enough to screw with everybody's head at least a *little* relative to what the average citizen's mental health would look like in a utopia

I would argue that wokeness is evidence against that thesis. By every objective metric, conditions today are massively better for American women and for black Americans then they were 60 years ago, and conditions 60 years ago were massively better for both groups than they were 100 years ago. And yet, somehow, the better things get, the louder we hear people screaming about what massive problems our society allegedly has with sexism and racism!

I'm reminded of the "hygiene hypothesis," the notion that allergies and autoimmune conditions develop primarily due to the rampaging army of destroyers that is our immune system lacking a sufficient quantity of legitimate pathogens to fight in a modern, largely sterilized environment, so they turn on other, more harmless things and declare them The Enemy. We've got thousands of years of human civilization selecting for struggle and tribalism as positive survival traits. It's become an inborn part of human nature by this point, and those instincts don't see piddling little details like "we no longer have any good reason to behave that way" as a good reason not to behave that way.

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Edmund
May 23

> My go-to response to this is, "yes, what happened to you sucks. It wasn't your fault. But you're still responsible for your own choices." Empathy is important, and it's equally important not to let empathy cross the line into enabling.

Well, yes, that's what you need to tell *Gary*, all else being equal. But I feel like this misses part of my point, which is that sometimes you actually have the power to make Gary's life suck less, and you need to talk about the ways in which it sucks (to talk about them with people who are not Gary) *in order to improve them*. As part of this conversation, you might even -- gasp! -- have to discuss the possibility that all clinical depression aside, making Gary's life suck less might in fact make him happier on net.

I read the Wilson quote not as an invitation to self-pity, but as a call to action. "You don't understand. The people you think of as 'okay' are not 'okay'. *You* are not actually 'okay', nobody is, we could *all* be so much happier if we as humans got our shit together and got rid of homelessness/wars/disease/etc.! Stop telling yourself you should just learn to be happy with your lot, your lot is breadcrumbs and there's a cake right over there." And that reading resonates very strongly with me.

Endlessly picking at scabs is a failure mode, but you do need some way to notice that you're covered in bruises as a first step to actually going to a hospital and getting better. Wokeness does tend to prioritize scab-picking over actual, er, progress… but I think it's the failure mode of a necessary process. (Relatedly, my own gut feeling for *why* woke discourse falls into this trap so much is that it's *because* we've already come so far. The ideal world is now so close that we can almost taste it… so close that any remaining imperfections, however small, start to feel intolerable.)

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 23

Honestly, it's interesting to see just how much of this is simply repackaged Christianity, with the overt spiritual elements removed and actively rejected but the basic doctrines remaining intact.

> The people you think of as 'okay' are not 'okay'. *You* are not actually 'okay', nobody is

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God."

"There is none righteous, no, not one."

> we could *all* be so much happier if we as humans got our shit together and got rid of homelessness/wars/disease/etc.

"Only be thou strong and very courageous, that thou mayest observe to do according to all the law ... turn not from it to the right hand or to the left, that thou mayest prosper withersoever thou goest."

> Stop telling yourself you should just learn to be happy with your lot, your lot is breadcrumbs and there's a cake right over there.

"Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man, the things which God has prepared for those who love Him."

> Endlessly picking at scabs is a failure mode, but you do need some way to notice that you're covered in bruises as a first step to actually going to a hospital and getting better.

"And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye? Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye? Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye."

> I think it's the failure mode of a necessary process.

I think it's failing because of the removal of a necessary process. Wokeness takes fundamentally Christian goals and tries to accomplish them by other means, and one important doctrine it abandons by the wayside is the doctrine of repentance and forgiveness of sin: that the atonement of Jesus Christ enables you to turn away from your past, that the things you have done wrong can be washed away and no longer remain stuck on your record. Take out the spiritual doctrine of atonement for sins, and it probably shouldn't be surprising that the possibility of repentance gets thrown out alongside it, and all we're left with is recognizing and confessing past wrongs and being trapped in them forever.

> Relatedly, my own gut feeling for *why* woke discourse falls into this trap so much is that it's *because* we've already come so far. The ideal world is now so close that we can almost taste it… so close that any remaining imperfections, however small, start to feel intolerable.

I would say it's, again, because they've lost an important spiritual doctrine: the eternal reward of the righteous in Heaven. If you're running on an atheist philosophy that there is no afterlife, if this life is all that we have, then what choice do your fundamentally Christian principles of righteousness and justice leave you with but to attempt to establish some form of Heaven on Earth, by any means necessary? But because that was never the real plan, it always fails catastrophically.

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 23

Many Thanks!

>Yes, you are rather lucky _in comparison to many_, but isn't that like saying the one guy in the mediaeval village who made it through the black plague in good health had "a rather lucky existence"?

Ok, but I don't think there is any _absolute_ standard. Also, for "traumatized" to be a useful term (at least as a binary predicate) it has to select a proper subset of humans, otherwise it just reduces to "human".

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Edmund
May 23·edited May 23

I would say the standard should be humans living in Utopia/Heaven/The Better World Of Tomorrow.

That is, I think you can't have progress if you're unwilling to say "maybe a lot of people are sad and in pain, not because they're insufficiently tough, or because it's unavoidable, but because there's a lot of misery in the world that we could actually physically alleviate!!".

From our point of view in the developed world in the 21st century, we can pity a medieval peasant who thought "I survived the plague, only one of my children has died in infancy, and no warlord has invaded this parish for twenty years -- indeed I am blessed by the Lord!" was as good as it got; that the path to happiness was to accept this state of affair as an upper ceiling on human flourishing, and make one's peace with it.

Things can get better -- the basic amount of suffering that the average human has to witness can and does go down over time -- and if we believe that, then it's reasonable to acknowledge that even the luckiest of us are in many ways much less than maximally lucky. (Albeit perhaps in ways that are hard to conceptualize until we crack our equivalent of "invent medicine and human rights".)

Or to put it yet another way, I think "there's an absolute objective standard for how mentally healthy the average human should be" vs. "the notion that everyone in the world might be less than healthy due to the world being bad is meaningless" isn't, actually, a binary. I think you can gesture at "we're nowhere near optimal conditions" even without a rigorous definition of what optimal looks like.

(As per my reply to Bob Frank earlier in this thread, I'm sympathetic to the idea that the word "trauma" is unsuitable to talk about "the background-radiation screwed-up-ness that we might all be suffering from due to, like, the awareness of our own mortality". But that doesn't mean the latter isn't a real, and important, thing to talk about. I'm open to suggestions about what we could call it, so long as it's a name that doesn't imply it's an unavoidable fact of life.)

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 23

Many Thanks! Well, I certainly agree that progress is possible. We (in the 1st world) _are_ better off than our medieval ancestors. At any given time, with the technology of that time, there is a currently-best-feasible human condition.

>I'm sympathetic to the idea that the word "trauma" is unsuitable to talk about "the background-radiation screwed-up-ness that we might all be suffering from

Agreed. I don't have any compact suggestions for a term for this.

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Olivier Faure
May 22

I mean, to share my own perspective on feeling traumatized by my dad screaming at me (and hitting me, but mostly screaming)... It doesn't feel like a self-defeating view of myself.

I didn't *choose* to having fits of panic when authority figures shouted at me. I certainly didn't think "Oh, hey, my dad screamed at me, that counts as trauma, right, so I get to cry in front of my boss when he summons me to his office!". Society certainly didn't encourage me to have these intense reactions, quite the contrary.

In fact, I remember the causality pointing the other way: I had a bunch of symptoms that I eventually noticed; after noticing them I went "Huh, I wonder if this has something to do with how my dad used to scream at me", and *then* I started grasping for words like "trauma" and "abuse"; before I noticed the symptoms, I very much thought those words were for other people completely different from me.

I don't know how representative I am of the average self-reporting traumatized person, but I suspect my experiences are much closer to the norm than hdvill's smug dismissive portrayal of them.

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Moon Moth
May 22

> I suspect my experiences are much closer to the norm than hdvill's smug dismissive portrayal of them.

FWIW, they match my own experiences.

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Okan
May 21·edited May 21

This somehow makes me think about your post on UtEB (Mental Mountains). If the parts in IFS are the valleys in our mental landscape, then the demons Falconer describes might be those that are particularly cut off from the rest of the terrain.

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Daniel Washburn
May 21

It probably shouldn't be shocking, but I found it shocking how strongly this whole thing reminded me of Twin Peaks.

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Deiseach
May 21

Mostly these are the situations you’d expect - child abuse and rape - but a surprising number of them say they got in during a childhood surgery. Falconer is appropriately puzzled, and wonders if maybe the disembodiment of anesthesia provides an opening.

That bit is straight out of an episode of Babylon 5:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Believers_(Babylon_5)

"Dr. Franklin faces an ethical dilemma when the parents of Shon, a dying alien child refuse to let him operate for religious reasons. Their son is suffering from an eventually fatal respiratory ailment. Franklin is confident he can save Shon, with surgery, but the family's alien religion prohibits surgery, believing that cutting into a body will release the spirit, reducing the body to something worse than death. They mention it as something only done to food animals in their culture.

...With Shon near death, his parents spend more time with him before they depart; as soon as they leave, Franklin decides to operate against orders. The operation is a success, and Franklin proves to Shon that his spirit has not changed, but when Shon's parents arrive, they treat him as an soulless demon and abandon him. They eventually return for him saying that they have brought his "travel robe" and are going to take him "to rest." After they leave Franklin checks Hernandez's notes on the species in the medical database and realizes that the boy was wearing a robe used in spiritual journeys, not physical ones. He runs to the family's quarters fearing the implication that "journey" in this case provides, but it is too late. The parents have already ritually slain the boy."

If sleep and anaesthesia are indeed interruptions in consciousness and the "self" ceases to exist during those periods, then it would be possible for another entity to usurp the vacant throne at that time?

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Mike Amory
Not Funny
May 21

Coming at this as a practicing therapist (LMSW) a few years in and still developing his therapeutic model with patients.

I've read and used some IFS principles, but very much from the standpoint of "This isn't a literal different person/energy/demon inside of you, but more of a metaphorical way for you to connect with 'parts' of yourself you might not like or deny". My experience working around therapists, I am not surprised in the least it can devolve into literal demon hunting. It is why I gravitated toward Scott's work, I found my scientific training in graduate school to be lacking.

I very much agree with the concept around theory of mind and how our culture strongly influences how we think about ourselves. That is what I want to focus this post on because I think this is exactly where therapy interventions can be most effective.

Which hits on the main point I want to make: part of the human experience is that we can make meaning out of absolutely anything and this is an effective tool when conducting therapy that doesn't have to run counter to scientific reality (Or at least I hope it doesn't).

Focusing on various mental illnesses as being a misfire of the brain is both correct but also 1) Not a very compelling story for people (They are gonna feel pretty helpless, how does one control the brain to not misfire?) 2) Discounts the evidence we have about how powerful our minds are to shape us mentally and physically (See giving ourselves mental illnesses in certain circumstances, psychosomatic pain etc.)

I don't think its controversial or even unscientific to say that the mind is a powerful tool we can use to help people get better. That means leaning into meaning making (Why "Mans Search for Meaning" is my golden tome as far as I am concerned for private practice), stories and self-narratives that a patient can believe in. I don't want to paint these as all being equal, we can absolutely tell ourselves some pretty fucking destructive stories about ourselves and the world that both "heal" us and also lead to a more precarious reality.

I see my role as helping to guide patient's to better meaning and stories they can believe in, because ultimately all of our meaning and story making is a choice and somewhat arbitrary.

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Mark
May 21·edited May 21

I think this begs the question of what IS a demon or other alleged "spiritual entity", what exactly does such a term even mean?

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magic9mushroom
May 21·edited May 21

All this, and you didn't reference the time *you* encountered a demonic possession? From the "Geography of Madness" book review:

>I have seen exactly one demonic possession case in my ten years as a psychiatrist. The man fell to the ground, mouth foaming, chanting strange syllables and the names of Biblical demons. My attending doctor at the time - one of those people who somehow manages to be an expert in everything - was an expert in demonic possession, and told us that he was in no way psychotic, antipsychotics wouldn’t help him (except insofar as they help everyone by decreasing all behaviors), and he needed to “work through his issues”. The patient was uncooperative - he was only visiting MDs because the local bishop wouldn’t call in an exorcist until he got a psych exam - and eventually left against medical advice.

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Theophylline
May 21

The reason Falconer hasn't come across any patients who shoot fire out of their eyes during exorcisms is obviously just because all the demons competent enough to do that sort of thing would never let their humans make it to a therapist's office in the first place. A demon like that is usually only noticed by the people who have to live with the possessed person, and the demon/possessed person usually manages their reputation well enough that anyone accusing them of possession will be labeled as a head case long before the possessed person themselves is ever suspected of having something wrong with them.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

This is the thing that worries me, reading stuff like this. The first thing that comes to mind is a certain episode from Acts chapter 19. Most people encountering a demonic spirit lack both the knowledge of how to deal with one and the authority to do so, and attempting to manipulate them through other means is a good way to either end up in trouble or to be tricked into thinking you've been successful when you haven't.

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

This is Falconer's theory too.

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Vitor
May 21

Just because it's possible doesn't mean it's plausible. Powerful demons are so powerful that they manage to do... roughly nothing. Not exactly a falsifiable belief.

Reminds me of conservation of expected evidence - the fact that we don't find a japanese conspiracy planning to bring down the US just proves how sneaky and dangerous they are... hmmm. https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/jiBFC7DcCrZjGmZnJ/conservation-of-expected-evidence

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Theophylline
May 21·edited May 21

The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was teaching people how to reason well enough that they could rationalize away their god-given all-consuming paranoia in the face of the devil's endless five-dimensional-chess-like machinations.

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Moon Moth
May 21

> Powerful demons are so powerful that they manage to do... roughly nothing.

Maybe... to borrow from an earlier post of Scott's, power is anti-correlated with ambition among the demons on earth, because the metric for "do they go to earth and mess with humans" is limited to a narrow band. Any demons more powerful and more ambitious have better things to do, and demons that are neither powerful nor ambitious don't even make it up here.

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Eugene N
May 21

Is everybody on this rationalist blog now accepting the existence of demons?

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Moon Moth
May 21

Only as a hypothetical for the purpose of conversation?

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 22

I have to admit a strong temptation to turn caustically sarcastic about this. I've been keeping it to light snark, in the interests of not adding a hostile tone to the conversations here.

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jseliger
May 21

I read this essay and find myself thinking: “it sounds like therapy is still where medicine was in ~1700,” I.e. still doing blood letting and without the germ theory of disease. That may be my preexisting biases shining through.

Interestingly, my wife just finished some kind of IFS training for using IFS with psychedelic medicine. I didn’t really understand why one would want to combine the two, but it does seem like, if the therapist wants to elicit “parts” or “demons” or what have you, psychedelics are a way of doing so.

Giving psychedelics to borderlines, however, sounds like a terrible idea.

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Daniel Washburn
May 21·edited May 21

That does indeed sound like a recipe for disaster, imo. And I'm an advocate for psychedelics.

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DJ
DJ Codes
May 21

About 10 years ago I did a superficially similar kind of therapy called Voice Dialogue. It was a little woo in that it drew from Buddhism, but nowhere near the degree of IFS. No trance states or other nonsense. Just an attempt to clarify what my conflicting impulses are, and how to get them more aligned.

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Leo Abstract
May 21

One massive error in assumption, in the footnotes. Schwartz in the seventies went to a radical new program of training on family systems that completely ignored interior experience as outmoded and Freudian and unscientific.

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Michael Watts
May 21

> Luckily, demons apparently have to tell the truth about this? If you ask them point-blank whether they’re a demon, they’ll try to stall and dither. But if you really press the question they almost always admit it.

I don't really see a problem here; the tradition is very old that, while otherworldly entities might not be bound by the same rules that apply to us, they definitely are bound by special rules that apply to them.

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Edmund
May 21

It's not narratively odd, but it massively complicates the empirical claim. "There are malevolent non-physical intelligences" could be true in any number of world-models; stipulate that they are bound by rules of truthfulness and we're already sliding into more specific theological models.

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Michael Watts
May 21

Isn't the empirical claim just that, based on past experience, this is a good way of identifying them?

Why do you need any theological model?

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Edmund
May 21

No, I mean it would complexify the assumptions baked into "the phenomena described earlier are caused by real otherworldly entities who have a separate existence from the patient", if we consider it as a claim about the world. If all we observe is "there are voices in some people's heads who claim to have a separate existence, can be made to go away, and have seemingly consistent stories about being afraid to join some kind of light", then, although it's still a tall order for any reductionist, we could grant the claim some level of probability *without* even becoming theists, let alone accepting any specific belief system. (Maybe the 'demons' are interdimensional phase-shifters or something. Who knows?) Whereas if you add in that they follow superstitions about having to tell the truth etc., then you're narrowing it down a fair bit from "there are invisible minds floating around, we don't know why or how they work".

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Michael Watts
May 21

Well, yes, everything else you say about them necessarily means you're narrowing the definition of what they are.

Wouldn't this be just as much of a problem for the claim that they respond to exorcisms?

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Edmund
May 21

Not the kind of "exorcism" described in the post, which are otherwise more like "bargain with the demon until it agrees to goes away" and less like "say specific magic words to banish it". (I think "you can bargain with them" is implicit in the initial claim of "there are intelligences you can talk to", so it brings no additional complexity points.)

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Michael Watts
May 21·edited May 21

Really? There are plenty of things you can talk to that don't care to any degree what you say.

There are more things that might be happy to negotiate over some points and unwilling to negotiate over others. Generally, there is no point in trying to negotiate something into killing itself, which is what we appear to be doing here.

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Edmund
May 21

Only in the materialist framework that these really are just parts of the patients' brain! The whole idea of them being demons is that they have a separate existence from the patient, which began before they entered the patient, and will continue after they leave. (Whether it's to possess somebody else or cross over to some vaguely afterlife-y alternate plane of reality.)

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Michael Watts
May 21·edited May 21

No, also in the framework where we think these are metaphysical entities and we only ever observe them as they exist in human hosts. A tapeworm works the same way.

There are a few other problems with your position here:

- Everything you say continues to define the demons more narrowly, which you claim to be against. The idea that demons must continue to exist after being exorcised comes from you! I think this is an incoherent position on your part. Defining things more narrowly is the entire concept of empirical evidence. All additional knowledge means narrower definitions, and all narrower definitions mean additional knowledge. Complaining that a manual for solving a particular problem describes some facets of the problem is... weird.

- You also don't expect to be able to negotiate ticks off, or bureaucrats out of collecting taxes, or farmers into becoming ranchers. These things don't lead to immediate death, but they fundamentally conflict with the organism's lifestyle, and do lead to death or death-analogues if the negotiations repeat. If, every time you see a particular kind of being, it is engaged in the same characteristic behavior, you would not expect it to be willing to stop, ever.

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Long disc
May 23

I think this is less of a problem and more of a logical circle: under the described methodology, those demons who do not admit being demons, are considered to be Parts and not demons.

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Peter
May 21

“Send the dubious Parts warm compassionate energy from your Self, tell them there’s no reason to be scared, and promise that’ll take care of them once the demon is gone.”

It seems like it would be much more natural to say “promise that you’ll take care of them…”. Scott, are you using voice-transcription software? (or do you think you have a tendency for phonetic typos?)

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Deiseach
May 21

Well, gosh.

You try and drive religion out and it will come back some way. The parts about making sure it's a demon etc. sound very similar to doing exorcisms in Catholicism:

https://www.usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/sacraments-and-sacramentals/sacramentals-blessings/exorcism

"When and how is an afflicted member of the faithful referred to an exorcist?

It is advisable that every diocese establish a protocol to respond to inquiries made by the faithful who claim to be demonically afflicted. As part of the protocol, an assessment should occur to determine the true state of the person.Only after a thorough examination including medical, psychological, and psychiatric testing might the person be referred to the exorcist for a final determination regarding demonic possession. To be clear, the actual determination of whether a member of the faithful is genuinely possessed by the devil is made by the Church, even if individuals claim to be possessed through their own self-diagnosis or psychosis."

I'll note that the Amazon.com site shelves this book under "Books > Medical Books > Psychology" while Amazon.co.uk classifies it as "Religion & Spirituality› New Age› Occult"

Also, what is it with every woo peddler and fast-buck merchant stealing Catholic iconography? Great Mystery Press redirects back to Falconer's website, and it's a version of iconography of the Sacred Heart (but the traditional one doesn't have wings or barbed wire for the crown of thorns). I suppose this is the downside of being massively successfully at generating global branding: everyone wants to copy it!

https://aleteia.org/2018/06/21/the-sacred-heart-how-its-devotional-images-developed-over-time/

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 21

> Well, gosh.

> You try and drive religion out and it will come back some way.

"A little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion."

— Francis Bacon

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Jeffrey Soreff
May 21

I wonder if Muslim patients seeking this form of therapy complain about djinns... :-)

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Moon Moth
May 21

> Also, what is it with every woo peddler and fast-buck merchant stealing Catholic iconography?

No offense to the Orthodox literal iconography, but IMHO Catholics simply have the best iconography of any religion, period. Maybe think of this imitation as flattery? :-)

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Robb
The Manchegan Candidate
May 24

Yep, this is really something else (as a fellow Catholic).

I've been silent on this thread for a while. A couple of weeks ago I posted in one of the open forums, has anyone heard about this IFS thing? And only a few had. Suddenly it's everywhere. But here I am having done parts work before it was cool.

So to the point: Through all my IFS work I was just a few thoughts away from "jeez, it would be so easy to take this thing, decide a part isn't so good as Schwartz's book says it is, take its origin from my own mind and put it elsewhere, and bang, I can disown that unfortunate habit or desire.

Which doesn't mean it's not a viable possibility. Just that it would be so, so easy to spin it that way.

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MichaeL Roe
May 21

As someone who is familiar with Vajrayana Buddhism, I find this hilarious.

The IFS guys are catching criticism from

a) Scientific Rationalists, who are objecting on the grounds that Demons Do Not Exist.

b) Christians or a certain sort, who think that demons do, in fact, exist, and that this is a terrible way of dealing with them.

Meanwhile, any Buddhist practitioner of Chöd will be aware of an extensive discussion of the non-existence of demons, in for example, the teachings of Machig Labdron. ("Park's closed. Moose out front should have told you." No, scratch that. "Your tantric empowerment for visualising yourself as Troma Nagmo should have explained this to you in the _tri_, the philosophical explanation you were given along with the reading transmission of the text.")

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MichaeL Roe
May 21

See, for example, Machik's Complete Explanation: Clarifying the Meaning of Chod (translated by Sarah Harding) for the Vajrayana Buddhist version of the Demons Do Not Exist discussion,

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MichaeL Roe
May 21

The following is my personal opinion and maybe not official Buddhist orthodoxy...

We talk a lot about akrasia in ACX circles. Suppose you know you ought to tidy up your room (or whatever) but. strangely, find yourself unable to just do it. Yes, obviously, western psychiatry has a name for that, and its name is depression. But .. that conflict of the "self" .. you want to do the thing and the thing? What on Earth is that? maybe, a glimpse, that may well be familiar to many, into what the Buddhist discourse along the lines of "Demons obviously don't exist, and yet here we are performing elaborate rituals about them" is trying to get at.

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Robb
The Manchegan Candidate
May 24·edited May 24

It might be useful at this point to clarify that the "trunk" IFS concept is that all your parts come from you, they are protectors you spawned to deal with problems and memories too painful to cope with yourself when you were (generally) too young to know better, all of them intended good for you even though the firefighters might burn your house down, and you have a nice fluffy Self in the middle of it all who's all compassionate and cool about everyone and everything, if only you can access it, which is hard but doable.

I've got a flippant tone here, but I do feel (minus the demonic bit) IFS is a good recipe to deal with and integrate trauma and not-quite-trauma without doing more harm than good, and people can self-heal with minimal guidance, or at least I did. Not all the way. But more than I could do by myself.

I'm a Catholic so the demonic bit is a part of my life (whether I think it's real or not; CS Lewis has a great line on that in the intro to Screwtape Letters. I've seen too many people have, um, unproductive thoughts on the matter.) I think a good middle way is "if they are what the CC says they are, the less traffic with them the better, and it's too tempting to blame them for stuff I need to own, so the hell with them."

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Presto
May 21

>we’re not holding Demon Awareness Campaigns in random middle schools full of impressionable kids

I'm sure you wrote this line explicitely for us to ask: "or are we?"

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Long disc
May 23

We do, just the current religion calls them "biases"

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Web
May 21

I'll preface this by saying that I'm a scholar of intellectual history, not a clinician.

There's ALREADY an intellectual-clinical community that's centered around trying to find a responsible vocabulary to articulate and respond to the experience that there is something within us that is not ourselves, which seems to have desires and inclinations that we cannot identify with, and which can be hostile to our conscious selves. It's just that Strachey robbed the English-speaking world of the visceral vividness of the "IT" in contrast to the "I" when he translated Freud's German.

Lacan takes hold of this experience and makes it the core of his thought. The stuff about the "other" in Lacan is about finding a language to understand that my relation to the IT within me and the other person outside of me overlap and intermingle in very complex ways, and that in many ways it makes a lot of sense to understand the IT "inside me" is the fragment of interpersonal structures external and antecedent to my own consciousness.

It really seems like a good Freudian-Lacanian can get you most of the pay-off of IFS therapy (or IFS-exorcisms?!?) without the bizarre metaphysical commitments. It's not perfect, but it's better than frigging excorcisms!

(Since this comes up every time I've mentioned Lacan: Bruce Fink's "The Lacanian Subject" is far and away the best introduction to a sane Lacanianism. Most others are written for people trying to piece together his (often very interesting) intersections with French philosophy, which are not useful for a clinician.)

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Scott Alexander
May 21Author

I read Fink and couldn't really understand him - see https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/book-review-a-clinical-introduction for my review.

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Web
May 21

I remember that review! Ironically, that is one of Fink's books that I haven't read, so I can't comment. I remember reading his "Lacan to the Letter" and thinking it was a waste of a few hours, so I think his quality can vary quite a bit.

If I was inclined to try and sell you on reading another Fink book, I'd say that the hardest part of Lacan is how austerely formal his idea of the subject is, how counter-intuitive it is to that Western model of the monolithic and integrated self, and how rigorously, even to the point of absurdity he works with that model rather than the culturally embedded assumptions of what a "person" is. In your Fink review, you talked about the difficulty of fitting various Lacanian "stories" together--and I think that part of what's going on is that you need a very odd model of the subject to make them work.

This book is the best introduction to the Lacanian model of the subject, hands down. To be fair, that's a very low bar to clear--but it's the best attempt to try and piece what Lacan's trying to say on the subjec. Plus it's rather short.

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Chris
Chris Contra Mundum or Something
May 21

“…he keeps getting new demons, one after another, and this seems common for the IFS therapists who deal with demons most frequently.”

This is notable from an orthodox Christian perspective in that if you’re going to be nice to demons when speaking with them, you should expect more of them to keep coming around and bothering *you*. This is also a common trope in various legends and myths about monsters and spirits, like the vampire who can’t come in your house without the master of the house first inviting them in. The Hitchhiker Effect is a more modern version of this phenomenon.

This phenomenon being operative across multiple legends, religions, and cultures—even materialistic ones like ours—would seem to suggest there’s something real here and not just a fevered imagination (although that too can be operative).

As a Christian in America, I’m of the perspective that anyone treating “demons” should exhaust all the materialistic explanations first, and only then, if all else fails, resort to exorcism. IIRC that’s also how Catholic and Orthodox exorcists tend to operate.

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Bob Frank
Forewarned Is Forearmed
May 2