[This is one of the finalists in the 2024 book review contest, written by an ACX reader who will remain anonymous until after voting is done. I’ll be posting about one of these a week for several months. When you’ve read them all, I’ll ask you to vote for a favorite, so remember which ones you liked]
Content warning: body horror, existential devastation, suicide. This book is an infohazard that will permanently alter your view of paraplegia.
The Death of a Newly-Paraplegic Philosopher
For me, paraplegia and life itself are not compatible. This is not life, it is something else.
In May of 2006, philosophy student Clayton Schwartz embarks on a Pan-American motorcycle trip for the summer before law school. He is 30 years old and in peak physical condition.
He makes it as far south as Acapulco in Mexico before crashing into a donkey that had wandered into the road.
The impact crushes his spinal cord at the T5 vertebra, rendering him paralyzed from the nipples down.
On Sunday, February 24, 2008, he commits suicide.
In the year and a half in between, he writes Two Arms and a Head, his combination memoir and suicide note.
Writing under the pseudonym Clayton Atreus, he lays out in excruciating detail how awful it is to be paralyzed, and how his new life is but a shadow of what it once was. He concludes that his life is no longer worth living, and proceeds to end it.
Along the way, he addresses the obstacles that society has put in his way of dying on his own terms—the biggest of which is the fact that physician-assisted suicide for his condition is illegal at the time.
But there are other factors. Smaller, more insidious roadblocks. Our society doesn't just condemn suicide; we do a great disservice to newly disabled patients in refusing to let them voice their misery and grief about being disabled. The book is a scathing indictment of how our society enables the lifelong disabled at the expense of the newly disabled and terminally ill.
Looking back from ~15 years in the future, when we have a patchwork of states and countries that have legalized physician-assisted suicide, Clayton's story stands as a cautionary tale for why it must become—and stay—legal.
Being Paralyzed Sucks
As a student of philosophy, Clayton is heavily influenced by the writings of Nietzsche and Camus. He analyzes the experience of being paralyzed primarily through the lens of Existentialism. It’s hard to imagine a more apt philosophy for interpreting body horror.
Two Arms and a Head comes from one of those rare moments in history when an individual’s circumstances so perfectly intersect with their skills that they leave a mark on the world. What better cosmic tragedy than to have a strong, fit, arrogant philosophy buff suddenly find himself paralyzed? His memoir is an exploration of what it means to exist in a body that is no longer entirely his own.
The full ramifications of being paralyzed are rarely discussed in polite company. Rest assured, he omits no details:
Everything below my nipples is no longer me. Hence the title of this work, “Two Arms and a Head”. [...] I am two arms and a head, attached to two-thirds of a corpse. The only difference is that it’s a living, shitting, pissing, jerking, twitching corpse. [...] What was once my beloved body is now a thing. [...]
Two arms and a head. Period. Additionally, I will be using a sort of shorthand in this book when I refer to parts of “my” body. So when I say “my penis”, for instance, what I really mean is “the unfeeling, alien piece of flesh that used to be my penis, but is now just part of the living corpse I will push or drag around forever until I am dead.” [...]
As far as I feel about my body, who do you love more than anyone else in the world? Think of that person. Now picture being chained to their bloated corpse—forever.
No, Really, It's Way Worse Than You Think
I had limited exposure to paraplegics until I read this book. Growing up, I only knew them from pop culture—usually as side characters who would appear on Very Special Episodes of Saturday morning cartoons. Professor X. The glider kid from that one episode of Avatar. The main character from the other Avatar.
The tropes gave me a mental model of being paraplegic that boiled down to "you can't use your legs, so you have to drag yourself in and out of a wheelchair to use the toilet. But you're still an ordinary person sitting upright in a wheelchair."
Clayton wastes no time in dispelling this myth:
> I am devastatingly, cataclysmically physically disabled. [...]
> There is a tremendous difference between me and an able-bodied person sitting in a wheelchair. Tremendous.
Spinal cord injuries affect everything downstream of the injury—not just "the legs" but also the pelvis, bowels, genitals, and abdomen. Depending on where the injury occurs, that can include all the trunk muscles that keep someone sitting upright.
Starting at the top, the cervical (neck) vertebrae control the head, neck, arms, and fingers. The thoracic (torso) vertebrae control the entire torso and abdomen. The lumbar (lower back) vertebrae control the hips and front muscles of the legs. The sacral (tailbone) vertebrae control the back muscles of the legs and the groin area. The very last vertebra, S5, innervates the anus and genitals.
Clayton is injured quite high up on the torso at the T5 vertebra. Let's consider the ramifications of having everything below the nipples be completely numb and limp.
To start off, that means that he has no use of the muscles that hold him upright.
Nothing keeps me sitting up—no hip flexors, erector spinae, hamstrings, or abdominal muscles. I am arms-and-a-head on a column of Jell-O.
He can't put both arms out in front of him, lest he fall over. He has to continuously prop himself up with one arm while doing anything at arm's length. After only 1.5 years of being paralyzed, this has already caused significant repetitive strain injuries in his elbows, shoulders, and ulnar nerves.
Clayton still has to deal with all the logistics of life, despite two-thirds of his body being a hunk of corpse-flesh. He dedicates huge swaths of the text to all the little time-wasting tasks he now has to do. How much of his life is ticking away with every delay, every piece of effort, every task that is trivial for an able-bodied person but monstrously difficult for him. Something as simple as getting out of a car is an entire production—let alone running errands, cleaning, doing laundry, cooking.
Since the lower two-thirds of his body no longer sends pain signals to his brain, he must proactively tend to all of its physical needs. Complications include pressure sores, infections, and a high chance of blood clots. Aside from suicide, the leading causes of death among paraplegics are all related to poor circulation.
In addition to the loss of conscious sensation and muscle control, problems with the autonomic nervous system—heart rate, orthostatic blood pressure, temperature regulation—are common. This is even more pronounced in cervical spine (neck) injuries. Some quadriplegics black out or the blood rushes to their head when being moved from lying down into reclining in a wheelchair. A spinal cord injury wreaks havoc on the body's functioning.
Go back to that diagram. The groin area is innervated by the very end of the spinal cord, at the S5 vertebra. We tend to think of our legs as being “below” the crotch, but the nerves that control bowel movements and urination are downstream of the ones for the legs.
To keep the party rolling I will tell you about piss and shit. [...] To urinate I have to slide a catheter down my urethra. [...] To defecate I finger myself up the ass and root around and around until the shit comes out. Nuggets, smooshy, whatever it is I’m digging in it.
He describes the disgusting, nauseating process at length. For the sake of your lunch, I will refrain from quoting it all.
In addition to being unable to open and close his sphincters on command, he also receives no signals of needing to go. If he eats the wrong thing and gets a bout of diarrhea, he will have no warning—no abdominal discomfort and no final urge to rush to the bathroom.
One afternoon he "has an accident" while lounging on his couch. In trying to move from the couch to the toilet, he subsequently smears feces all over the couch, the carpet, his wheelchair, the toilet seat, and the shower.
After he digs the poop out of his anus and washes himself off, he then has to clean all of that up by himself.
From a wheelchair.
Bending down, stretching, trying not to fall over, trying to reach the floor to scrub feces off the carpet.
From a wheelchair.
This episode was hardly the first time. He would routinely wake up in the morning to find that he had soiled himself overnight. Imagine struggling to rip dirty sheets off the bed, stuff them in the laundry, and put a clean sheet on the mattress—from a wheelchair.
I don't know about you, but I can barely get a fitted sheet on my own mattress, and I get to do it while standing up.
And unless I want to piss or shit myself, there can be no rest from this drudgery, ever, for the rest of my life. No relieving stretch of time without piss-dowsing and fingering myself up the asshole.
Nobody told Kid Me that Professor X has to dig turds out of his anus every day.
The groin dysfunction doesn't stop there.
To be redundant once more, I can’t feel my penis. [...] Men, think how losing your penis would make you feel. Ladies, think of having your clit amputated and never having sex again. [...]
True, the unfeeling penis attached to the living corpse I drag around can become erect but what has that to do with me?
The one time he tries to have intercourse after his injury, it goes about as well as you'd expect:
Watching a woman bob up and down on the penis attached to the corpse that used to be my body struck me as macabre and disturbing. It was like necrophilia. It’s like watching a woman get off by rubbing my amputated foot on herself.
The disturbing facts just keep on rolling.
One final note about the physical symptoms: spinal cord injuries hurt. Everything below the damage is numb, but the injury itself is a massive tear in the central nerve that controls the body.
The pain is insistent, nagging, and so sharp it seems to crackle. [...] It’s just as sharp and intense every time, over and over, like it’s mocking you. Sometimes it happens when I’m lying in bed and it’s like trying to fall asleep with someone sticking a needle between my ribs or the bones of my big toe.
But, surely, the only real problem is the physical limitations? Clayton is still the same person he'd always been, right? He has the same brain, same personality he did before the accident. Even if he can't walk anymore, he still has his memories.
Not so fast.
Yes, Even Worse Than That
What kind of mental and emotional toll does all of this take on Clayton?
The feeling I experience is a frantic, frenzied, desperate distress. [...] I need to move. I need to move. [...]
Not only is two-thirds of my body paralyzed, but so is a huge part of my innermost self. It wants more than anything to feel and experience life. To exist. But it exists now only in a place between reality and nothingness with no hope of ever coming back. [...] All it can do is degenerate in the solitary place it has been forever exiled to.
A popular heuristic in neuroscience is "use it or lose it." This is usually in the context of memorization, but it also applies to sensory organs and limbs. When Clayton is injured, his brain's connection to everything below his nipples is severed. Lacking any more sensory input from down there, the brain simply overwrites and repurposes the unused neurons.
His injury is not limited to his present and future, but also reaches back into his past:
Certain of my memories seem to be disappearing. For example, when I try to remember doing things that involved running, jumping, and sex, the memories seem less real or vivid than they used to. [...]
If I imagine taking another person’s hand in mine, or kissing someone’s face, or someone touching my face, I feel something similar to sensation in those parts of my body when I imagine it. [...] But my lower body is now just a void, and its death started the creation of a void in my brain. Not only can I not feel it, but my ability to imagine feeling it is disappearing, as is my capacity to remember feeling it, and doing things with it.
He likens himself to a Cartesian brain, a part of the world but outside of it, forever locked away, unable to exert his will on the outside world. Not only has he lost his legs; he is beginning to lose the memory of those legs, too. Everything he ever was, any skills that he ever learned related to being able-bodied, are destined to die over the coming years.
His mind is doomed to slowly decay as its neurons do what neurons do: rewrite themselves until none of the person he used to be is left.
Toxic Positivity
Can Clayton actually talk about any of these things with his peers?
Not really. He has a small circle of other recently paralyzed friends who understand, but outside of that, no.
American culture has an entire social ecosystem that reinforces the idea that disabled people should be upbeat and optimistic about their life prospects. Almost any interview with a paraplegic ends on some upbeat note about how their disability "doesn't stop them from doing all the things they want to do" and that "they can do anything” an able-bodied person can.
In fact, Two Arms and a Head opens with one such quote from Stephen Hawking:
“I try to lead as normal a life as possible, and not think about my condition, or regret the things it prevents me from doing, which are not that many.” —Stephen Hawking
This is patently absurd. Why do they say these things? Do they actually mean it, or are they just being hyperbolic for rhetorical effect? Surely they all know, secretly, that they’re lying to themselves?
Clayton argues that no, they mean it, and they’re not lying to themselves.
Remember how disability affects the brain? How all those unused neurons get repurposed, and any concepts of using those paralyzed limbs gets overwritten (if they ever existed in the first place)?
They [lifelong paraplegics] tend to only see life in terms of the possibilities that exist for them [...] Their view becomes somewhat tautological. “What I can do is all that is possible, therefore I can do all that is possible.”
Just as able-bodied people cannot comprehend what it’s like to be a paraplegic, lifelong paraplegics and quadriplegics simply cannot grasp what it is to be able-bodied. I’m not saying that lightly. The difference is biological. They have different brains. [...] They do not understand the experience of being able-bodied—neither the subtleties or much of what, to observers, is overt and glaring. They can try to imagine it, but they don’t even come close to comprehending the potential that exists there.
Hence the common refrain that there are “not many” things that they can’t do.
Adding to this dynamic is that it is considered impolite in our culture to call them out on it:
If I were still able-bodied and a paraplegic told me he could do everything I could, I would just think “Looks like being crippled fucked up his mind too, because that’s insane.” I’m not sure what I’d actually say to him, but I know it wouldn’t be that. [...] So the disabled are basically allowed to go around saying whatever on Earth they want. They acquire a kind of de facto moral infallibility because nobody is going to argue with them.
On top of this, humans have a basic need to belong, stay positive, and avoid people who are negative and miserable. If paraplegics were honest about all the body horror and misery, they would quickly find themselves devoid of friends.
So what is a newly paraplegic person to do in order to maintain connections during a time in their life when they desperately need comfort and support?
Brainwash themselves, of course!
Clayton was staring down the prospect of what he would have to do to his mind in order to survive in our current society as a paraplegic. It was bad enough to be mutilated physically; he didn't also want to be mutilated mentally.
What happened to my body is frightful, but no less than what happens to the minds of many disabled people. We have to have some kind of integrity to our views of the world and reality, and the more the better. [...] So my unwillingness to adopt certain “attitudes” or whatever people call them is something like a desperate struggle to evade the clutches of madness.
It gets worse. This does not just affect their social lives and beliefs. These dynamics ripple out into the medical community’s attitudes about paraplegia. If every interviewee swears that paralysis doesn’t hold them back in life, then why pour resources into finding a cure?
I’ve heard people say that spinal cord injury is not a priority for medical research like cancer because “people can live like that”. No, we can’t live like this. This is not “life”.
Which raises the question—have there been any breakthroughs since 2008?
The State of the Cure
Let’s take a short break from the existential horror to look at the science of spinal cord injuries.
Clayton killed himself in 2008 because there was no cure at the time. Have there been any new developments in the ~15 years since?
The short and upsetting answer is "not yet"—though there are some glimmers of hope.
Why are Spinal Cord Injuries So Hard to Fix?
The spinal cord consists of multiple concentric layers of nerve fibers, not unlike an electrical cable. Wherever the spinal cord has trauma, the nerve cells die off and form lesions of scar tissue that block all nerve signals from traveling downstream of whichever thread was damaged. Some patients are lucky in that only parts of the spinal cord are damaged, resulting in paralysis on only one side of the body.
Nerve cells in the spinal cord do not regenerate themselves. Once damaged and scarred, there’s nothing anyone can do.
The good news is that emergency medicine has come a long way in arresting the formation of scar tissue at the moment of injury. Patients coming into the ER today have a much better prognosis than they did a few decades ago. The interventions are straightforward treatments like stabilizing the spine, surgery to release pressure on the pinched nerves, and shots of corticosteroids to reduce swelling and inflammation.
But beyond that, there is no clinically-proven, FDA-approved treatment for an existing injury. Clayton describes the challenge of rebuilding his injury as something similar to “reconstructing a crushed strawberry.” No amount of stabilization would have put his smeared spinal cord back together.
The Latest Research
Treatments fall into two camps: bridging the injury, and encouraging the injured scar tissue nerves to regenerate.
Implanted Nerve Cells
In 2012, Prof. Geoffrey Raisman's team at University College London successfully treated a paralyzed man in Poland.
The treatment involved removing one of the olfactory bulbs in his brain in order to culture olfactory ensheathing cells (OECs), which are the only nerve cells in the human body that continuously regenerate. The surgeons removed a section of nerve from the patient's ankle, then implanted both the ankle nerve and the OECs into his spine at the injury site. The grafted tissue bridged the gap between his brain and the healthy spinal cord just below the injury.
After years of rehab and physical therapy, in 2014 the researchers announced their success to impressive fanfare. As of 2016, the patient could walk, ride a tricycle, and had regained bladder, bowel, and sexual function. He was far from his pre-injury self, but his quality of life had improved immensely compared to before the treatment. The call went out to recruit two more volunteers for another study.
And then... crickets.
This follow-up study has yet to be performed.
It could have been delayed for a number of reasons. Perhaps they never found suitable volunteers whose profiles satisfied the demands of European regulators. Perhaps Brexit threw a bureaucratic wrench in the collaboration between UCL and the research center in Poland. Perhaps they ran out of funding.
To make matters worse, Prof. Raisman passed away in 2017.
In the years since, the team has been making progress in fits and starts. As of 2022, the current focus at UCL has been on figuring out how to culture OECs from the nasal mucosa instead of needing to crack open the skull to get at the olfactory bulbs directly. They’ve also made improvements in the technique for applying these cells to the injury site. Things are certainly happening, albeit at a glacial pace.
This treatment strategy may become widespread in the future, but at the moment, it remains experimental.
NervGen's "Wiggling Molecules"
In 2021, NervGen Pharma announced a drug that encourages damaged spinal tissue to heal without scarring. A bioengineered molecule, NVG-291, is injected into the spinal cord and acts as a scaffold for the nerve cells to attach to as they regrow. The molecules of this scaffold naturally "wiggle” and stimulate nearby nerve cell receptors, promoting healing. Animal models were extremely promising.
NVG-291 is currently in Phase 1b/2a clinical trials, which are scheduled to start in August of 2024.
I’m cautiously optimistic. The main impediments to finding a cure are the same ones that plague any other field of medical research: lack of funding and unreasonable requirements from regulators. The main problems at this point in time appear to be bureaucratic rather than strictly biological.
Will any of this research pan out within the next 5, 10, or even 20 years? Maybe. Only time will tell. (Someone should start a prediction market about this!)
Alas, this is all coming too late to have saved Clayton.
The Decision to Die
I am absolutely and heartbreakingly in love with life. But this is not life. [...]
For those who like to say this one: “Suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem.” I reply that suicide in my case is a permanent solution to a permanent problem. [...] I have only one serious problem in life and it’s being paralyzed.
Clayton does not come to this decision lightly. He considers it exhaustively and systematically. When deciding whether to keep living, he starts from the premise that there is some amount of suffering past which life stops being worth it. He evaluates where that dividing line is by examining the sources of meaning in his life.
He starts by asserting that there is nothing wrong with his mental health or his reasoning abilities:
I am not depressed, I am tortured, and there is a difference. [...] If they came up with the cure today and I got better instantly, I could win myself a Nobel Prize in medicine for proving that depression was caused not by anything in the brain as previously thought, but by damage to a few cubic centimeters of nervous tissue in the spinal cord. Because I guarantee I’d pop up and be feeling as merry as a lark in about one second. [...] My problem is not depression. [...]
There is no problem with my reasoning powers. [...] So if I say, “Paraplegia prevents me running. A life without running is not worth living. Therefore, my life is not worth living.” you might not agree with one of my premises, but there is no question of whether I’m being reasonable.
This is similar to Frankl’s argument in Man’s Search for Meaning, and in fact Clayton spends an entire section talking about Frankl. He has a few disagreements with the book, but he has no gripe with the core message. Clayton decides to die because he had meaning in his life—and then the accident took it all away:
Probably the life of a deaf man would be good enough for me, or that of a mute or a man missing a leg or an arm. But not the life of a paraplegic. There is not enough left for me. [...]
The life I dreamed of and loved with all my heart is gone forever and there is nothing I can do about it. And it’s not just slightly changed, but utterly devastated. [...] My skills as a carpenter, roofer, plumber, gardener, all devastated. My ability to conduct my everyday life with wonderful efficiency, devastated. The wonderful way I was able to relate to other people, devastated. My sex life, devastated. My social life, devastated. [...]
I am who I am, I love what I love, and given what I need from life, existence is no longer tenable for me.
Some readers may look at that list and call him shallow. Even if that were so, that doesn't change his argument. Maybe most people don't place having sex, controlling one's bowels, and running through the woods as the quintessence of life-affirming values, but I'd be willing to bet that they're still important.
Reading this book should prompt a moment of introspection. If you disagree with Clayton’s list above, then reflect on what does give your life meaning. No, seriously, make a list: family, friends, partners, children, hobbies, skills, etc. Write them down.
Cross out one entry at random. How would you feel if you lost that entry? Would you still have enough left over to carry on? Probably.
Now cross out a few more. Lose your partner. Lose your children. Lose your parents. Your siblings. Your best friend. Your favorite hobby. How do you feel? Still worth it?
Add in some physical negatives: chronic pain. Constant nausea every time you eat. Losing feeling and control of your bowels, your legs, your genitals, your diaphragm, your non-dominant hand, your dominant hand, both arms. What about loss of sight? Hearing? Speaking? Communicating at all?
What about ending up like the title character in Johnny Got His Gun, where he is left with no legs, no arms, and is rendered blind, deaf, and mute? What would life be like as a disconnected brain in almost complete sensory deprivation?
How much would you have to lose before your life stops being worth living?
That list—and the dividing line between "worth it" and "not"—is different for everyone. The decision to end one's life is deeply personal. Clayton happened to draw the line at a particular point. Others may agree or disagree, but Clayton’s judgment was his own.
Decision in hand, next comes the hard part.
The Roadblocks
I did not want much from the world in dying. To be able to put my affairs in order without fear of being taken prisoner and treated like I was insane. To say goodbye to those I loved without the same fear. To die a painless death without worrying about leaving behind something gruesome. And to be comforted as I died. When a person has absolutely nothing left and is facing annihilation, all he wants is not to be alone.
For Clayton, killing himself is not a simple matter. At the time only one US state, Oregon, had any kind of “Death With Dignity” law on the books. However, this law only allowed assisted suicide for terminally ill patients with less than six months to live, while Clayton’s condition was stable.
The slightest whisper of suicidal ideation would have gotten him locked up in the psych ward. He has to write his book in secret, he has to lay his thoughts out for the world in secret, and he has to die in secret.
Becoming paralyzed destroys him on two fronts—the disability itself, and the fact that he is completely, utterly, devastatingly alone with his feelings. He writes Two Arms and a Head because he needs to show the world how agonizing it is to face death alone and how important it is for physical-assisted suicide to become—and stay—legal.
How empty to exist in this universe and share your feelings and experience with nobody! But that is how you, the world, have left me to die, alone. But what you don’t realize is this: in turning your backs on me, you have turned your backs on yourselves. [...]
Someday you will be on your deathbed and maybe you will remember me. What I say to the world is that if you don’t do something about the way death and assisted suicide are dealt with, you may someday find yourselves in an unimaginably horrible situation with no way out. [...]
Beware! There could be a horrible fate waiting for you and if you don’t all get together, look each other in the eye, recognize the insanity, and change the laws, you could wake up tomorrow as a head on a corpse with no way out for the next thirty years.
A lingering question you might be asking is: if he cared so much about it, then why didn’t he become an activist to get it legalized? The Overton Window was shifting. Washington state would pass a bill a few months after his death, and it would be legalized in Montana by a court case in 2009. Several more states would follow suit in the mid-2010s. He could have shared his experiences far and wide and joined the burgeoning movement that existed back then. He was a law student at Vanderbilt for crying out loud; surely he could have enlisted the help of at least a couple of his colleagues?
No one but him could have answered that, though I suspect that the answer is because he didn’t want to. He found his existence to be so ghastly that he didn’t want to stay in it for a second longer than necessary. The only reason he lasted as long as he did was because he wanted to finish the book. He chose to leave Two Arms and a Head as his legacy for the world, and nothing more.
We’ve gone over the state of the cure over the last ~15 years. Has there been any progress on amending the laws for physician-assisted suicide?
The State of MAiD
Medical Assistance in Dying (MAiD) is currently legal in a patchwork of countries and US states.
The exact rules, restrictions, and methods vary. In most places that have legalized it, the patient’s condition must be considered terminal (i.e. death is expected within six months) to be eligible for MAiD. The procedure itself is typically either an IV injection administered by a nurse, or a prescription cocktail of benzodiazepines, digoxin, and opioids which patients drink themselves.
In Canada and the Netherlands, MAiD is also available to patients with a disability that does not present as immediately terminal. The Netherlands currently includes severe treatment-resistant mental illness as a qualifying condition, and Canada will follow suit in 2027.
So it sounds like Clayton got his wish, at least in Canada and parts of Europe. Now, when a Canadian ends up in a terrible accident, they have a choice in the matter of whether they want to spend the next few decades as a quadriplegic head-on-a-corpse. Phew.
However, it’s not all smooth sailing. It seems like every few months there’s another horror story in the press coming out of Canada or Europe. Two news stories came out in quick succession in late March/early April 2024—one from Canada, the other from the Netherlands.
In Canada, a 27-year-old autistic woman with no disclosed physical symptoms was granted the right to proceed with MAiD by an Alberta court. The story broke after her father sued to try and stop her.
In the Netherlands, a 28-year-old woman has decided to pursue MAiD due to her treatment-resistant clinical depression and borderline personality disorder. Her MAiD is scheduled for sometime in May 2024. At the time of this writing, she has yet to undergo it.
These stories are nothing new. They certainly sound dreadful.
Diving into every big story from the last ten years would be beyond the scope of this review, but let’s return to the one about the 27-year-old autistic Canadian woman who was granted MAiD. Both the Calgary Herald and CBC framed the story as a grieving father desperately trying to prevent his autistic daughter from being led astray by unethical doctors cherry-picked by the Alberta Health Service. The father insists that his adult daughter is physically healthy, albeit “vulnerable and not competent” to make medical decisions due to her autism and ADHD. Despite this, the judge has allowed MAiD to proceed anyway.
Meanwhile, reading the actual court decision shows that the legal issue at hand is whether the woman is required to disclose the physical ailment(s) that led to two doctors approving MAiD. The judge ruled that the woman is competent to make her own medical decisions, and that she is not required to disclose her diagnosis to either her family or the court. The father has since filed an appeal.
(July 2024 Update: the appeal hearing was subsequently scheduled for October 7, 2024 - six months in the future. Not willing to wait that long, the woman began a voluntary stoppage of eating and drinking (VSED) on May 28. The hearing was rescheduled for June 24. However, the woman continued to refuse food and water going into June. The father withdrew his appeal on June 11. It is unknown whether the woman has undergone MAiD at this time of this update.)
She is not choosing MAiD because of autism or ADHD. We don’t know what her physical diagnosis is. We only have the father’s insistence that “her physical symptoms, to the extent that she has any, result from undiagnosed psychological conditions.” That’s the father’s words, not a physician’s, and not the patient’s. Neurodivergence does not bestow immunity against all the nasty ailments that can cut someone down in their twenties.
I’m not accusing every news piece about MAiD of being similarly sensationalized, but I’m not not accusing every MAiD story of being similarly sensationalized.
Despite so many of these stories not holding up to their headlines, many remain opposed to the expanded rules. There is a massive contingent of activists who want to keep MAiD illegal.
Not Dead Yet
Clayton had a particular amount of ire directed at one prominent anti-MAiD disability rights org: Not Dead Yet.
Not Dead Yet (NDY) was founded in 1996 by the same people who lobbied to get the Americans with Disabilities Act passed a few years prior. As the name implies, they reject the notion that death could ever be an acceptable response to living with a disability.
Like any activist org worth their salt, they have a convenient Talking Points page where they lay out all the reasons why they’re opposed to MAiD. They argue that MAiD is deadly discrimination against disabled patients, with current programs having insufficient safeguards to prevent foul play. NDY argues against a medical field that has decided that death is preferable to disability. They insist that they are not against individual autonomy; patients will always be free to commit “un-assisted” suicide if they truly wish to die.
The page opens by explaining that MAiD is necessarily a disability issue, even in places where MAiD is only available to the terminally ill.
Although people with disabilities aren’t usually terminally ill, the terminally ill are almost always disabled.
When terminally ill patients get polled on why they are choosing MAiD, it turns out that avoiding pain isn’t the primary motivation. In Oregon, where MAiD is only available for the terminally ill, every patient fills out a questionnaire when they apply for the program. Tallying up all the surveys from 1998–2023, to top reasons are:
“Losing autonomy” (90%)
“Less able to engage in activities” (90%)
“Loss of dignity” (70%)
“Losing control of bodily functions” (44%)
“Burden on family” (47%)
“Inadequate pain control, or concern about it” (29%)
“Financial implications of treatment” (7%)
The top five all relate to the disabling symptoms that come with dying. “Less able to engage in activities” sounds remarkably similar to Clayton’s reasoning of, “the things that gave my life meaning are no longer possible, therefore it’s time to die.”
This isn’t surprising when considering that palliative care is legal in all 50 states. If someone’s condition is judged to be terminal, as Oregon requires, they already get a bottomless supply of morphine. Pain is not really the problem anymore.
The problem is that a failing body is, well, failing. Patients become weak and frail. They struggle to walk and use the bathroom. They may become dependent on a feeding tube or a respirator. Somewhere along the way they might lose their minds to dementia. All of these are serious, debilitating symptoms that can suck the meaning out of life, so many patients choose to die before they get to that point.
Not Dead Yet condemns this status quo.
We Don’t Need To Die to Have Dignity
In a society that prizes physical ability and stigmatizes impairments, it’s no surprise that previously able-bodied people may tend to equate disability with loss of dignity. This reflects the prevalent but insulting societal judgment that people who deal with incontinence and other losses in bodily function are lacking dignity. People with disabilities are concerned that these psycho-social disability-related factors have become widely accepted as sufficient justification for assisted suicide.
They argue that patients and physicians are merely reflecting a “prevalent but insulting” prejudice when they decide that death is preferable to debility. NDY paints a picture of the type of physicians who provide MAiD to patients:
In judging that an assisted suicide request is rational, essentially, doctors are concluding that a person’s physical disabilities and dependence on others for everyday needs are sufficient grounds to treat them completely differently than they would treat a physically able-bodied suicidal person. [...]
Legalized assisted suicide sets up a double standard: some people get suicide prevention while others get suicide assistance, and the difference between the two groups is the health status of the individual, leading to a two-tiered system that results in death to the socially devalued group. This is blatant discrimination.
There’s a lot to unpack here. NDY is starting from the premise that the desire to end one’s life is always and necessarily the product of an irrational mind, Claytons of the world be damned. Medical professionals, given that they’ve sworn an oath to protect life, have an obligation to treat all suicidal ideation with “suicide prevention” care (i.e. involuntary commitment until the patient comes to their senses).
A society that has legalized MAiD still extends this preventive care to the able-bodied who want to die, but then turns around and gladly assists disabled patients in ending their lives. This is discrimination! Doctors are murdering the undesirables!
To drive the point home, the Canadian chapter of NDY has this image on their homepage:
Clayton counters this by pointing out that doctors give different treatments for different circumstances all the time.
For example, begging for opioids out of the blue is considered “drug seeking” and will get you referred to addiction treatment; begging for opioids while in the ER for a severed leg... will get you opioids. Refusing to provide opioids and instead providing “addiction prevention care” to the able-bodied is not discrimination against the legless.
The Canadian chapter of Not Dead Yet has a similar Talking Points page, with this one written in the style of an FAQ. They raise some concerns about a lack of safeguards to prevent foul play. In Canada and parts of the United States, a MAiD patient simply picks up the lethal cocktail at a pharmacy, then takes it home to drink.
No witness is required when the drugs are taken. There’s no way to ensure that it’s voluntary.
If something goes wrong, there’s no way to help the person.
A lethal dose of drugs may sit around the house for weeks or months.
...That’s concerning. I didn’t know any of that before I read the website.
An obvious solution to this problem would be to do what the Netherlands does and require a medical professional to be present. That way, said clinician can ensure that the patient gives affirmative consent with no abuser standing over the patient’s shoulder. Once the patient has passed, the clinician can pack up the leftover meds for safe disposal. In the Netherlands, these professionals are part of dedicated teams who travel to patient homes for exactly this purpose.
Except NDY does not suggest this. In fact, they do the opposite. NDY condemns the Dutch approach by referring to these clinicians as members of a “mobile euthanasia unit” that dispatches patients in their own homes.
Everything seems to circle back to blaming doctors. But why?
Ableism
Underpinning Not Dead Yet’s objections to MAiD is the belief that society has a prejudice against disabilities. This prejudice is so strong that the average person believes that being disabled is sufficiently miserable to justify death. The disability rights community has a name for this bigotry: ableism.
Ableism is: “A system of assigning value to people’s bodies and minds based on societally constructed ideas of normalcy, productivity, desirability, intelligence, excellence, and fitness.”
When Clayton concludes that his paraplegic life is less “valuable” than his pre-accident life, he is invoking the societally constructed premise that “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits.” That is indeed one of his core values, and he is indeed being ableist.
The anti-ableist framework holds that a value judgment like “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits” is arbitrary bigotry on par with “having white skin is a good and desirable trait.”
When disability activists argue that our society should reject ableism, what they are saying is that we should reject the notion that “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits.”
Given what Clayton has told us of his life, that argument is cosmically, outlandishly insane.
So... why do they make it? What’s going on? They can’t really believe this, can they?
The knee jerk response is to dismiss them as just being in denial, but Clayton offers a much more horrifying explanation: they do mean it.
I have no desire to begrudge other paraplegics their happiness, though many of them evidently have every desire to begrudge me my feelings. I find them monstrous and inhuman the moment they want to insist that my feelings indicate from some kind of defect within me. [...] A clam is comfortable in its shell and thinks all of the other animals should envy it. A clam does not see why an eagle would rather die than be a clam.
Let’s explore this with a thought experiment.
The Four-Armed Alien
You probably don't fantasize on a daily basis about what life would be like with four arms. If you really try, you could imagine a few ways that life would be easier:
You could chop ingredients with two hands and stir the skillet with a third.
You could hold a 2x4 in place with two hands while holding and driving in a nail with the other two.
You could carry a full bundle of groceries with three arms while fumbling for the keys with the fourth.
That sure sounds convenient, doesn't it? Wouldn't that be so freaking awesome now that you really think about it?
But despite the possibilities, you don't dwell on it every day, because... you don't have four arms. You have two.
Our wiring just isn't cut out for this. And that's perfectly normal! Everyone's brain does this. This isn't some character flaw. Our brains simply aren't meant to comprehend sensory input from body parts that we don't have.
But suppose there existed a hypothetical alien race that did have four arms. One such alien’s entire experience of having four arms would be so much more detailed than human imagination. The convenience would be effortless, automatic. The feats of dexterity would be so mundane as to escape notice.
Now let's say that one of these aliens gets in an accident and has to get two arms amputated. They would be devastated! They would notice all the myriad things—both big and small—that they suddenly could no longer do. Their life would be immensely harder. Things that were effortless before would now be massive hurdles:
Vegetables must be chopped separately, with the existing food lying in the skillet, about to burn.
That 2x4 must be held up with one hand/forearm awkwardly pinning the board to the wall, while trying to awkwardly hold the nail in place so the other arm can swing the hammer.
That heavy bundle of groceries must be held precariously with only one hand as the other one fumbles for the keys.
The real list wouldn't be confined to those three entries, oh no. It would go on, and on, and on.
This amputee would be grieving the life that they used to have—and they might even conclude that their new life is not worth living. Other four-armed aliens might even agree. Their entire alien society might be filled with medical professionals who nod solemnly in understanding, give them info on how to put their affairs in order, and write a prescription for a deadly cocktail. When the time comes to drink it, the alien drifts off peacefully, surrounded and supported by all of their four-armed relatives.
Us two-armed humans might look at this and be outraged: "What!? What do you mean my two-armed life isn't good enough for you? Are you saying that I should die, too? You asshole!"
A lot of people stop right there. They call the alien shallow and bigoted against two-armed humans. They claim that the alien’s values are borne of small-minded prejudice, they condemn the aliens’ medical practices as barbaric, and they might even launch a campaign to get the practice outlawed and the alien doctors arrested.
But then, for some others, another thought creeps in: "...What if having four arms really is that good? Maybe my life is that much worse, and I don't even know it because my brain cannot fathom what I am missing. But tons of other amputees say that they're devastated and missing so much... Holy cow, should I die? Aaaaaaaah—"
This can quickly spiral into an existential crisis. (Don't do that! That's bad!)
If this happens to you, then please, to the best of your ability, try to take a step back and understand that this is not about you. It’s ok to have two arms.
When confronted by a two-armed alien amputee who wants to die, a “meaning-based” response would be to argue that yes, while having only two arms can be inconvenient, they still have some things they can do and some sources of meaning left. It's not all doom and gloom, and it is possible to lead a life that is "good enough" with two arms instead of four. That's a straightforward case to make.
The extra step here is if you fail to persuade the patient, then you can’t force them to comply. If the patient still concludes that their life is not worth living to them, then you have to respect their choice and let them die with dignity.
We don’t see disability activist groups like Not Dead Yet doing this. Instead, they get stuck on the “Are you saying I should die, too? You asshole!” stage, and then demand that all patients who want to die be sent to the psych ward.
But... why!? The sensible argument is sitting right there. Why don’t they use it?
Clayton argues that lifelong disabled activists don’t adopt this framework because it would require acknowledging that some factors related to bodily functioning can make life better or worse.
In other words, it requires accepting ableism.
In order to argue that a patient still has enough meaning left for life to be worth it, one has to first admit that not having a functioning body is Bad, Actually. An honest conversation with a newly disabled person requires arguing that the good outweighs the bad, not that the bad doesn’t exist.
Clayton points out that if someone has been disabled their whole lives, then their disabled life is just “life”. The limitations of their bodies are as mundane and mildly annoying as the problems that we face when we only have two arms instead of four. Digging turds out of their anus every day is just a part of life, like brushing one's teeth. Of course ableism sounds like unfounded bigotry on par with racism to them; they have no other frame of reference.
When lifelong disabled activists insist that there is nothing “inferior” about being disabled, they mean it. When they declare that patients are merely being prejudiced when they choose to die rather than live while disabled, they mean it. They are not in denial. Their brains literally cannot fathom what they are missing. No brain can.
Remember this next time you encounter an activist in a comment section under a sensational news story criticizing MAiD. When they dismiss patient fears about the dying process as unfounded bigotry, this is where they’re coming from.
Un-Assisted Suicide
The final argument that anti-MAiD proponents fall back on is that anyone can just commit suicide; why do they need help from doctors?
The glaringly obvious answer is: because patients cannot “just” commit suicide.
Clayton could not “just” ask for help putting his affairs in order. He could not “just” say goodbye to his loved ones. He could not “just” die peacefully without anyone trying to stop him. He could not “just” publish his memoir before his death—not if he wanted to avoid being committed.
Young people would prefer not to think about such things, but what everyone does not see is that those old people are you. You are them, it’s just a matter of time.
Until we defeat death in the glorious transhumanist future, it’s coming for all of us. Some of us may die suddenly in a tragic accident. Some may be diagnosed with a terminal illness that kills in a matter of months.
But most of us will die by very slow decay.
The counterfactual world—where the elderly are kept alive as shriveled husks for years, slowly withering away—is gruesome and ghastly.
Someday, you, too, may be on your deathbed at the end of your life, in extreme debility, but without any obvious physical ailment that will kill you quickly without medical intervention. Or at any moment, you, too, could get in an accident and become as horribly maimed as Clayton. The patients who choose MAiD today will be you tomorrow.
Those. People. Are. You.
So... Should You Read This Book?
If you can handle the body horror, it is worth reading. It helps to be familiar with Nietzsche, Existentialism, and the broader disability rights community/anti-ableism ideas.
But it’s not for the faint of heart.
In terms of the writing quality, Clayton would have benefited from an editor. For obvious reasons, he couldn’t make his work public until after his death, and it’s a real shame. The writing is, at times, disjointed and riddled with typos. It’s short for a book—only 66,000 words—but it probably could have been cut down by a third and organized into more clear sections.
Clayton’s biting, blunt, crass, and vitriolic style may be off-putting to some readers. His pre-injury self strikes me as a serious dudebro; I would not have wanted to be his friend had we met in real life.
If nothing else, reading the full experience certainly gave me an appreciation for my bowel functioning.
If you’re feeling courageous, you can read Two Arms and a Head online here.
The Road to Nowhere
If you think it is easy to procrastinate on a school assignment, try killing yourself some time.
As Clayton nears the day of his death in the final chapter, the prose descends into stream-of-consciousness. He ponders the meaning of life and mourns for the life he has lost. He is lingering in that liminal space between life and death, going through the motions.
Finally, on Feb. 24th, he plunges his knife into the stomach of his corpse body:
Fuck I did it.
After days of procrastination and hesitation, the actual experience turns out to be... underwhelming. (It helps that he can’t feel any pain down there.)
I look at the wound, a big, gaping stab hole in my stomach, and it doesn’t really bother me in the least. This was not what I expected everyone. Maybe think of me when the time for you to die is coming and be reassured because it’s not so bad at all. In fact, it’s not bad at all. [...]
I suppose my advice for the living might just be: Live! And when it is time to die, die! [...]
I’m going to go now, done writing. Goodbye everyone.
When I finished the last line, I shut down my computer, took a moment to stare off into space...
...And went for a very long walk.
As a recent quadriplegic who is in the process of attempting to secure assistive suicide in another country, thank you for putting it so well and so eloquently. Some of them more puzzled commentators above should read this comment.
I think you should be allowed to pursue suicide if you want it, of course — I just don’t understand how physical disability / discomfort could offset all the good you could still do on earth to other people.
I have two possible answers to that.
First, everyone is allowed to be selfish to some extent. I would probably be willing to suffer a bit to do a lot of good to others. I would probably not be willing to suffer a lot just to cause a tiny bit of good. As a concrete example, I have not donated one of my kidneys, and have not seriously considered it, even though that kidney would likely be more useful to someone else than it is to me. I'm selfish enough to not want to go through that hassle and to not want to take the risk something goes wrong, even if that means someone else will die. That level of suffering to me is apparently not worth doing a lot of good to others, and it is the point of view that I think is most common on the topic of kidney donation. If you can believe that to be a reasonable position, you might try to view this situation as analogous to that (albeit with a flipped sign, ending personal suffering at a cost to others versus inflicting personal suffering to the benefit of others), even if you would draw the line elsewhere.
Second, there might be a serious question as to how much good you can do to other people; many struggle with this question, and quadriplegics (especially recent ones) might find it easier to find a negative answer as compared to before they became one. Your job options as a quadriplegic are rather more limited, and even jobs you can do in principle might take more effort in terms of required infrastructure. Bluntly speaking, becoming quadriplegic reduces your ability to do good for society as a whole, and adds some costs to take care of of you. I'll hasten to say that this should not be seen as a moral judgement of any kind. Society (in whatever form you wish to read this) made a decision to care for quadriplegics, and they don't need to feel bad about that (or even feel bad about not feeling bad about that). The level of good one can do for friends and family is different, and a quadriplegic can still do a lot of good for them just by being around. However, even then, some of that value can be lost since some shared hobbies might no longer be accessible, and relations with other people can change. Rightfully or not, I think some quadriplegics might argue that their friends and family might be better off in the long run; having the grief now, but getting closure right away. I am not sure I agree with this in the case of quadriplegics, but I have some experience with people who slowly withered away physically and mentally, to the extent that when they finally did pass away my relief that their suffering was finally over almost certainly outweighed whatever minor bits of happiness I would have had over their continued existence. 'Merely' being a quadriplegic would not cause me to believe that (many quadriplegics are happy with their lives, and I would wish for anyone who is happy to live to be able to live), but if someone told me that they were suffering significantly yet staying because of the good they can do for me... Well, I'd have trouble answering that without pushing them in either direction, but internally, I would probably value my happiness less as compared to their suffering; they should not be forced to live just for the sake of my happiness. In this sense, I would be unselfish.
My answers above might be mis-aligned with what you think about doing good on earth to other people, and I might be missing some significant things that you think of as good. I do think there's value in giving anyone a perspective that helps them find a reason to live. All else equal, I would prefer someone finding a reason to live and then living over them dying. Still, in the end, I think that one can reasonably draw a line on the axis of 'how much am I suffering' versus 'how much good can I still do', and decide they have ended up on the side of that line that makes their life not worth living.
This is a great reply. Thank you for writing it. I’m very glad to have read it.
Excellent comment, I wholeheartedly agree with you.
I read this book in a single sitting about two years ago during my sophomore fall quarter. I thought motorcycles were pretty cool and was investigating accident statistics when I somehow stumbled upon it.
Once I started reading, I couldn’t stop. It gripped my undivided attention for ~6 consecutive hours. I immediately think about it anytime I encounter paraplegia.
Clayton is painfully intelligent. He outright begs the reader on multiple occasions to just *take him seriously.* That he isn’t insane, depressed, psychotic - that the only thing “wrong with him” is his disability.
The final pages are the only time I’ve encountered a live, real-time recounting of suicide. I just kept reading them over and over again. Unlike the common narrative of “I regretted suicide in my last moments” - I do not remember that being the message he expressed. What I do remember was looking for a sign that may be the case, and acknowledging its potential, but I couldn’t conclusively draw the line.
Before I read this, I had never truly internalized “be thankful for your health.” It was just a vague “sure is nice to not be blind/deaf/paralyzed/immobile.” I now routinely am.
I’d recommend this to anyone. He has a way of making you laugh, cry, find gratitude, and look unflinchingly into what it might really mean to lose your body.
I ended up deciding not to buy the motorcycle.
I read it recently. Regarding the end, he's determined at first, then feels a moment of panic and regret before settling into happiness and even euphoria, and recommends other paraplegics considering suicide to not be afraid of it.
"Happiness and even euphoria" sounds a lot like the endorphin rush after a serious injury. When I snapped my tibia I was texting people "guess who just broke his leg LOL" for about two hours afterwards, at which point the endorphins wore off and it stopped being funny. Which is not to invalidate Clayton's decision, but to say that I personally place more weight on the two or so years of thought that went into his decision than on his body's immediate reaction.
(This is not an argument against anything you said, just me trying to tease out how I feel about his case, and explore what it might feel like to have the endocrinology of a "living corpse" affect my thinking.)
Very wise on that latter. I am a defense attorney, and we mainly defend motor vehicle accidents. All the worst injuries I've ever seen have been to motorcyclists (or pedestrians, which kind of can't be helped, but I also wouldn't recommend that either, fwiw). I've had two cases where guys have had their legs amputated below the knee. Not worth it.
"Before I read this, I had never truly internalized “be thankful for your health.” It was just a vague “sure is nice to not be blind/deaf/paralyzed/immobile.” I now routinely am."
....we do not become conscious of the three greatest blessings of life as such, namely health, youth, and freedom, as long as we possess them, but only after we have lost them. (Schopenhauer)
“He is lingering in that liminal space between life and death, going through the motions.”
This is essentially where I am right now: https://jakeseliger.com/2024/07/29/more-isnt-always-better-death-and-over-treatment-as-a-downside-of-agenticness/. I'm dying from cancer, though, rather than being paraplegic. Since getting a dose of radiation therapy on June 12, my life has been hellacious, and has consisted primarily of 1. pain management, 2. mucus / slime / saliva management, and 3. not sleeping, due to #2. I'm technically alive but my life isn't worth living.
A horrible pseudomonas pneumonia infection appears to be contributing or causing much of the misery. I'm on my third antibiotic in an attempt to treat it, and am likely to switch to a fourth. But it doesn't matter that much: I'm too sick to travel to another clinical trial, and I've crossed the threshold from "tolerable quality of life" to "not tolerable quality of life:" https://jakeseliger.com/2024/01/23/will-things-get-better-suicide-and-the-possibility-of-waiting-to-find-out/
I mean this in the simplest, most direct way: that sucks, and it breaks my heart that you are suffering this. I hope - again, in the simplest, most direct way - that you find and can utilize a treatment that will alleviate that misery. Everyone deserves to be able to do so.
I've been following your writing and I don't really know the best way to say this, but, it's been a really amazing, horrifying, enlightening gift to be able to get the slightest glimpse into what you're going through. Obviously nothing could ever be worth having to go through that, but I want to thank you and Bess for writing all of that down and letting people see it.
You're welcome. I hope others learn how to navigate the crazy clinical-trial system, and, most of all, I hope Congress reforms it.
In case it helps with anything, I'll echo Brian Moore:
That sucks, and you didn't deserve it.
Oh wow, I'm amazed you're still alive. I thought the next time I heard about you would be your death.
I really hope that miracle comes for you, because you really fucking deserve a happy ending. But either way, you really tried your best. I can only hope I'll be as brave if I ever face that level of hardship.
I'm amazed I'm still alive too. I won't be for long; the turn after getting spot radiation on June 12 has been horrible. My wife and I won a bunch of treatment gambles, but we really lost with the spot radiation, followed by the savage pseudomonas pneumonia.
Once a sufficient number of things go wrong, they tend to keep going wrong, and I'm caught in that doom spiral.
🫡
Jake,
I've been following your story since the glossectomy post was linked to in /r/medicine. (Though I think I've missed a few posts, unless the last one was the first mention of Bess being pregnant.) I'm very sorry the misery has been compounded by tumultuousness. ("Tumultulty?" The spell-checker doesn't recognize "tumultuousness.")
1. In addition to your writing about the invisible graveyard and difficulty of navigating clinical trials, are there any themes or subtext in the way you depict your experience of illness that you care to highlight or make explicit?
2. Any regrets over pursuing the strategy of leapfrogging from trial to trial?
3. In /r/medicine, we discussed whether or not it was reasonable for your surgeon to switch from a hemi-glossectomy to a total glossectomy, without a new consent from your medical proxy, especially since it was unclear how much he expected it to change your prognosis (given that the cancer he was removing was itself a recurrence of an aggressive and frequently-recurring cancer). What do you think?
I hope you have the least unpalatable outcome possible. (Pun intended, since you're a writer.)
The last one was the first public mention of Bess being pregnant!
Don't think there are more themes or subtext, or, if there are, I'm too ill to imagine or articulate them now.
Given the current constraints on e.g. distributed clinical trials, the strategy of going from trial to trial seems reasonable. But ideally one would have a better and more humane system.
I think the problem is that once Dr. Hinni (the ENT at Mayo who led the glossectomy) discovered that the cancer had compromised the lingual arteries, it was too late to intelligently back out. I was warned that there was a possibility of a total glossectomy. He thought he was maximizing the likelihood of the cancer not returning. After the total glossectomy, Bess and I (mostly Bess) did a lot of research and consulting to figure out whether I should do chemo in an effort to prevent further recurrence, and most oncologists said good data doesn't exist, and the choice would ultimately be mine. I elected to pursue to chemo, but, by the time we started, a bunch of new tumors had already grown.
Multiple head and neck oncs have independently said mine is among the most aggressive cancers they've ever seen :(
I think you've made a difference, especially as seems probable that your wife will carry on with activism or awareness-raising y'all have done. I know I will think about you whenever I hear about the difficulty of accessing trials and making use of one's own research into one's illness.
I’m so sorry you’re experiencing this. No one deserves that.
I'm at a loss for articulate words, so let me just say that I am so very sorry.
I hope this isn't too late.
Please read this with the frame of mind that I care very deeply for you and your family, though I don't know you.
Rather than having crossed the threshold from "tolerable quality of life" to "not tolerable quality of life," you've crossed from "being able to believe that your quality of life is tolerable when it really isn't" to seeing things clearly because now you are deprived of any health or comfort to your body. Everything in this world is temporary and worthless, with the exception of the souls of every person. All that is done by anyone in this life that doesn't work towards the good of your soul or anyone else's is worthless. One day, everything in our universe will be completely destroyed and forgotten. All that will be left will be the souls of man and God and the angels, and we all will be judged for every way God's commandments have been broken. That is, unless we have faith in Jesus Christ, who sacrificed himself to take our place in punishment and then resurrected himself to prove that he had the power to conquer death.
God created mankind in order to love us, but there is a penalty for anything we do that is contrary to God, and that penalty is death. Living righteously is the baseline that God requires, so there's no amount of righteous living that can bring us back to a place where we stand justified with God once we have acted against God in our hearts or minds or actions. God still loves us even when we are against him, and that's why he came as a human to suffer as a human and die in the place of all humans, because he lived perfectly righteously as a human. Anyone who accepts what Jesus did and has faith in the saving power of his love and what he did will be pardoned for all that he or she has done wrong, and on that day when Jesus judges all of creation, he will pass over us and accept us to be with him because we accepted his love for us.
I won't argue with you about the fact that you have done any wrong against God, or that he has the absolute authority to create and judge in the way that he has and will. You know that it's true and can't deny it to yourself, even though you may be able to deny it and argue against it to everyone else.
I urge you to see the wrong in yourself and see how truly evil it is. Look around at how much evil there is in the world is around us. Any amount of slightly bad or less wrong from us has contributed to it. Admit to yourself and to God that you know that you have done evil and cannot redeem yourself on your own, and believe in Jesus that he will save you and redeem you himself.
I am praying now for God to heal you physically, but more importantly that he will heal you spiritually and your wife and family as well. I'm praying for you all. Jesus loves you and wants to save you, he has suffered so you can be free from evil and righteous with him.
Edit: To anyone else who may be reading, this applies to you as well.
Do you think people would be immortal in their current bodies if they didn't do anything God was against?
Do you think people who are healthier and longer-lived are in better compliance with God?
For your first question, the Bible says that death entered the world as a punishment for sin (going against God), so if mankind had never sinned then I think yes we would have been immortal in the bodies we were born with. But my speculation doesn't really have any effect on reality, and there is death in the world and our bodies aren't immortal.
For your second question, no.
Jake Seliger died in the week following this discussion. I regret that I never got to meet him.
https://marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2024/08/jake-seliger-is-dead.html
Never a mention of stem cells, the blind spots with all your blabbering is why EA should be set to pasture.
Well, don't leave us in suspense! What should the 'mention of stem cells' have been?
The appeal of stem cells, as you likely know, is that they can theoretically be developed into any other type of cell.
This would make them redundant with mentioned strategy #1, cultivating nerve cells from an olfactory bulb or mucosa. Since that strategy appears to already work, stem cells don't have much to add to it.
This seems unnecessarily unkind. What mention of stem cells would have redeemed EA? I can't think of what it'd be.
Why not just add a nice paragraph or 3 of how mention of stem cells would have improved the book review, or at the very least, improved our understanding of the situation?
You seem to have a passion about stem cells. Could you imagine for just a moment that other people have other passions, and haven't been able to fill the gaps the same way you have? Help us grow together, please.
Redeeming this article is beyond the point, it is about the choice in subject matter. How many articles from the EA community can you find about stem cells versus assisted deletion?
One about assisted deletion. This one we're commenting on.
What is the "EA community"? Lesswrong.com? https://www.google.com/search?q=stem+cells+site%3Alesswrong.com - I see a lot of results, although it's tough to say which are really about stem cells, since one is about ChatGPT, for example. But Google seems to indicate there are many many pages of results. I clicked to see the 100-110th results, and there were still articles that seemed to talk about stem cells proper.
So not only are you being kind of an a--hole, you appear to be factually incorrect as to your reasons why. A massive number of articles from EA community about stem cells.
Seriously... just give us something, anything, besides ironically angry veiled insults. Can you write an article about stem cells? If you have anything interesting to say about them from the past few years, I'm sure it would be well-received.
It's difficult searching for assisted deletion, isn't it? You get limited search results replaced with guidance to harm reduction. My apologies if I can't hide my distaste for the EA community anymore. Thank you for the diligence in providing exactly the materials that deserve amplification, you did a better job than this humble commenter could.
There's absolutely nothing wrong with "assisted deletion" as you call it. Whether you agree or not, I have the right to "delete" myself whenever, for whatever reason.
I understand there's implementation difficulties, and that the true will of a person can't be elicited just by asking them, especially when mental illness is involved.
All that said, this has very little to do with EA. There are tons of EAs pushing in all sorts of directions; you can be an EA working in one cause area even if you disagree with other EAs in other areas. Insofar as EAs cluster around specific beliefs and causes, assisted suicide is very, very far from the top.
I don’t understand why that matters. Is the issue just that you would rather read about stem cells and have disdain for anyone who doesn’t cater to your preferences?
I assume the criticism is that the EA community is putting effort into legalising assisted suicide for disabled people when such effort would be better spent researching cures for the disabilities in question.
if you've got a stem cell treatment that works I'm all ears, but I think you probably don't.
There are a handful of stem cell therapy options available to the rich and have worked for athletes. I wonder what sort of consultation Clayton would have gotten after law school.
All of the ones I’ve seen are shams. If they worked, theyd be able to prove it
Effective stem cell treatments have been known since at least 2003.
https://youtu.be/LNJi0CzfodI
To anyone interested, here is a review from April 2024 going over research in spinal cord regeneration:
https://journals.lww.com/nrronline/fulltext/2024/04000/regenerative_medicine_strategies_for_chronic.26.aspx
"As described above, cell transplantation alone has proven to be limited in its ability to improve function, especially in complete chronic SCI, it is essential to improve the spinal cord microenvironment with scaffolds, neuroprotective factors, and scar reduction agents prior to cell transplantation, as well as to develop transplanted cells with enhanced efficacy or new developmental treatments.
Furthermore, neural cell tissues induced from human pluripotent stem cells are typically insufficiently mature and cannot imitate the morphological features completely, there are some potentials for tumorigenesis and inadequate efficacy of improvement functions. "
(the infamous) Ray Peat mentioned some research where they severed the spines of mice, and then implanted Progesterone soaked ropes, which resulted in healed spines.
Whose blabbering? This is an anonymous book review. What makes you think the author is an EA.
It looks to me like you are reading in context which isn’t actually present.
This is the kind of comment that is less than worthless. You offend people, suggest that you have some important information, but you don't provide it. In case you are right, the comment is still worthless for a reader. And in case you are wrong, the reader will have to spend some time, only to find out that there is no useful information at the end.
I have no guilt for not wasting time on a discourse on your terms as a deflection from my point. The commenters interest shows there's an appetite for beneficials solutions that deserve amplification.
No indication the author is an EA. What an odd non sequitur.
Author mentioned replicating nerve cells but not stem cells. Damn you EA!
The anti euthanasia advocates I encounter are more nuanced than this article presents. The fundamental problem with this style of euthanasia is it absolves people of finding better options.
If Clayton had better social care and tools to live, might his quality of life have tipped over into livable? Maybe not in his case, but there are many cases where the life of the disabled is unlivable not because of the impairment, but because of the lack of support, inadequate housing and heating and care.
With euthanasia on the menu, it's a much cheaper option than fixing the broken system (or discovering new cures) and demand for improvements goes down.
Clayton does devote a chapter in the actual book to discussing this. IIRC, He rejects it out of a combination of pride and pragmatism. Says basically it's fine the independently wealthy accident victims want to hire a giant team to take care of them, but that in his opinion people in severely disabled conditions similar to him will absorb tremendously amounts of resources for relatively little improvement, such that support for him wouldn't be a reasonable public expenditure. He further adds that he doesn't think "society" owes him that level of financial expenditure and, more or less, that being a burden rather than a producer is a major injury to his pride/dignity/meaning anyway.
It sounds from the review that Clayton’s life would have sucked less with someone who wasn’t particularly trained coming over to help with tasks a few hours a day. This wouldn’t help with toileting but also isn’t wildly expensive.
Help multiple hours every single day doesn't seem that cheap to me. Strictly in terms of time, it's around 15% of someone's waking hours. Would it improve Clayton's life enough to be worth sacrificing 15% of someone else's? Maybe, but I would say it's expensive.
(Obviously in practice the burden would be spread across multiple people but it doesn't meaningfully change the total cost I don't think.)
If you pay them, it's not "sacrificing" their hours. If they love you, or see you as a god in disguise, or made it their mission to clean feces for Christ, it's not wasting their time. If we accept that only the individual gets choose the meaning and value of their life, then surely we should also accept that sometimes others value our lives more than we do and are willing to share and lighten the burden. Asking for their help is not an imposition. Refusing their help is negative sum, i.e. irrational.
If we're paying them, then the money is coming from somewhere. One way or another we as a society are sacrificing the value of their time.
If you can find someone who's willing to help for the sheer joy of it and has nothing else they'd rather do, then sure, that would be great and a win for everyone involved. But I think empirically the supply of saints doesn't match up to the demand.
Can't the money come from the disabled person's supply, in the cases where they are employed? Clayton planned to become a lawyer; in that case, he certainly would have been able to trade his time working for someone else's helping.
And when they are not, shouldn't their family be able to do this on their behalf, if the family values the person enough to do so?
Sure. I never said it was impossible to make it work or that it could never be worthwhile. I just said it wouldn't be cheap.
I remember that, but it was a logical fallacy. Comparing numbers that seem sensible to compare but really aren't. "OMG taking care of a disabled person requires more than 100% working hours from an able person, and is therefore net-negative"... This doesn't matter one bit! What actually matters: is our society rich enough to be able to provide extensive care to disabled people without collapsing? yes, it is. Do we actually want to do that? Well, now we have to get into the nitty-gritty, but at least we're asking the right question.
'yes it is'
Who are you to decide this?
I'm saying it's feasible, not that it's a good idea or that we should do it. As I said in the very next sentence.
From a progressive perspective, to have an opinion on this they should be a voting taxpayer. From a libertarian perspective, they should be a customer of a disability insurance company. Either one makes sense, and involves the same calculation of "odds of this happening to me" and "cost of this care" and "value to me if I need it"
I don't think that's a progressive perspective. I think one of the premises of progressivism is that care shouldn't have to be earned.
Maybe the situation is different in the US, but AFAIK you cannot buy private disability insurance that provides you with long-term extensive 24/7 care, indefinitely. This type of combined medical & nursing care (with no time limit) is so hideously expensive (& difficult for insurance companies to calculate in advance) that it is not offered as an insurance product - the market is not there. (Also due to the severe adverse selection problem you have as an insurer.)
A voter, and thus entitled to a fraction of the power to allocate society's resources.
I'm not a big fan of the libertarian argument according to which voting for something to be done at the taxpayers' expense is theft, but even if you believe it, you must recognize in our (and evety other) society any adult citizen is factually entitled by law to do so.
Just voting does not permit you to 'allocate society's resources'. It allows you to decide who will run the government. There are (or should be) very strong checks on the power of government to 'allocate society's resources', precisely because of this problem - voting to allocate resources requires no effort to be put in to generate those resources in the first place, reducing the incentive for society to improve.
This seems like an oddly limited scope for voting. There are many votes taken in the United States beyond just electing representatives. Citizens vote on ballot measures affecting taxes and spending here. I believe that is true in many other countries as well.
A constitutional republic, as opposed to a pure democracy, does/should limit the scope of voting power to a very large extent. There are many problems with relying too extensively on voting. Rational voter ignorance, public choice style incentive problems etc
"is our society rich enough to be able to provide extensive care to disabled people without collapsing? "
Well, apparently we're not doing it now (assuming the author found it too expensive, rather than say being too proud to get the help or something).
What does that say about the job of taking care of a disabled person? That compensation and working conditions are not attractive enough that enough people do that job. So disabled persons can't find carers.
How would we fix that? You could increase pay, but that I'm not sure if that's the sticking point. I'm not certain that you could make working conditions better.
For instance, I have alternative employment, and you would have to force me to work as a carer, or it would have to be for family. Money doesn't actually enter into it.
"Society is rich enough to do this" is just a call for someone else to fix it. Be more specific on the measures you would take to do so. Otherwise we cannot judge whether this is indeed true.
Page at https://www.sci-info-pages.com/spinal-cord-injury-facts-and-statistics/ mentions a number of about 291,000 people in US who are either paraplegic or quadriplegic, costs of living with paraplegia after the first year was estimated at $68,821 annually according to a 2017 Washington Post article at https://archive.ph/wip/EfUfZ so even if this was paid entirely by a specialized government program as opposed to by insurance premiums from healthy people, cost in 2017 dollars would be in the neighborhood of 20 billion a year, overall government spending on health care in 2017 (state and local as well as federal) was around 1580 billion according to p. 6 at https://www.ama-assn.org/system/files/2019-04/prp-annual-spending-2017.pdf
In Clayton's case I also wonder if he was uninsured or if his insurance failed to cover things that would have made daily tasks significantly easier, like a colostomy bag (mentioned at https://www.spinalcord.com/blog/when-should-people-with-sci-consider-a-colostomy as a common medical intervention for people with spinal cord injuries) or some medical devices that can help with tasks like bed/wheelchair or car/wheelchair transfers. The Washington Post article I linked above also talks about robotic exoskeletons as emerging alternative to wheelchairs, as home robotics develops hopefully the price tag on those will keep dropping.
Good cheap exoskeletons would make life better for a lot of people, but I don't think they're all that close.
I just finished reading the book. In Atreus' case, it wasn't about needing care. He mentioned several times how wonderful his social circle and school were with whatever assistance he needed, and he was on track to make a bunch of money as a lawyer. But he thought society's cached responses about life still being just as good were bunk when applied to spinal-injury paraplegics, and that he preferred not to be alive.
His thoughts about neck-down quadriplegics were different, and pretty clearly colored by his disdain for Not Dead Yet. That's where he goes on about being a drain on others.
I think this is a valid object, but I would condition it on the judgement of the individual, rather than you or me. If *they* believe that the cause of their misery is lack of reasonable care, then we should give it to them. If *they* believe that the cause of the misery is not that lack, but rather the objective impositions of their condition, and that (like Orion says below) that they do not want (for whatever reasons) feel that care would alleviate them meaningfully, then I think we should defer to them there as well.
If you or I believe "If Clayton had better social care and tools to live, might his quality of life have tipped over into livable?" then that is fine, but the judgement of whether that is true or not needs to be in his hands.
"With euthanasia on the menu, it's a much cheaper option than fixing the broken system (or discovering new cures) and demand for improvements goes down."
Sure, incentives exist, but:
1) you are describing benefits for society that might demand torturing a real individual to acquire. I think perhaps we've decided that isn't a good idea. This feels too much like hostage taking.
2) there are lots of other diseases/conditions that straight up kill people - and yet I think we're just as incentivized to come up with cures? If Clayton had died in his original accident, would we say "well, why would we prevent donkey crashes, because look how cheap just burying him was?"
'If *they* believe that the cause of their misery is lack of reasonable care, then we should give it to them.'
Why? Do they have something to give in return?
Quite possibly.
I'm not a big fan of deciding how we treat people — in the medical domain, I mean — based solely upon a measure of their Contribution to the Collective™, though...
Sure, /in general/ I've become more and more in favor of the libertarian/Libertarian position, having developed a touchingly childlike faith in The Power of the Market(®) — due in no small part to, until recently, actually being in a position wherein I could organize & test ways to handle various tasks that were (apparently) amenable to both a top-down & market-centric solution, and then seeing that the latter really did tend to do extremely well (when I could get others to play ball; a few ideas, unfortunately, needed—say—larger scope, to give a "marketized" approach a fair shake¹) — but...
...stuff like "medical care that literally means the difference between life & living death & then actual death"...?
I don't know, man, I'd kinda rather a floor for how far we let people fall, in at least this arena.
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¹: (sure, sure: yes, as it turned out, my famous Roustabout-Truck–Exchange–Pool suffered from liquidity issues that — in retrospect — maybe should have been obvious when we're talking "like a half-dozen spare units, max, at any given moment"...
(...but III maintain that it was merely ahead of its time! Someday, ALL fleet-owning companies will "internally securitize" their rolling stock & force... er, allow... project managers to self-allocate units & justify equipment needs based upon participation in both the internal toy market AND the external actual market at the same time!
(...I mean, sure, maybe it sounds a bit like I was just creating extra work for the PMs, in an arena that already had a pretty direct relationship to & feedback from real-world economic considerations — what with the standard way projects are billed back to the company & client anyway... — but... there were inefficiencies there, man, I'm telling you! Why, ones upon ones of people told me they'd been able to re-assess crew-truck needs thanks to the R.T.E.P.!—)
You, and others like you (including myself btw) are quite welcome to give up as much of your income as you voluntarily want to support these people. Why force others to do so?
Because this ends up in an equilibrium where the most selfish have the most power because they aren't burdened with paying for the common good. A level of common responsibility stops your saints all running out of resources entirely, and produces many dividends in public health, reliable care for you when you become old and disabled, etc
Taking care of the disabled is not 'the common good'. It is good for them, and it is good for those very few people who would pay to take care of them. It carries no benefit for anyone else, and hence should not be paid out of tax money.
By this standard literally nothing could ever qualify as a "common good." Universal healthcare is not a common good because different people will end up needing different amounts of healthcare throughout their lives. Transportation infrastructure is not a common good because different people will benefit from it in different amounts. Clean air or water is not a common good because different people have different abilities to tolerate or filter out contaminants.
We can get more ridiculous yet. National defence is not a common good because different people would suffer different amounts under any hypothetical invasion (and some would even profit): besides, we're not being invaded at *right this moment* so it's clearly not benefiting anyone. Law enforcement is not a common good because many people are not actively getting robbed or assaulted or murdered right this minute, and not everyone is equally at risk of those things. Laws in general are not a common good because they benefit different people to different degrees, and even hinder some people from doing what they want: if you're a thief or a murderer by proclivity, the laws are an imposition. Heck, even short-term existential risk mitigation isn't a common good: why should a person who has one expected remaining year of life lift a single finger to help prevent a disaster that will devastate the whole of the globe in ten years time?
In actually reality you, yes you, have a very real chance (small, but real) of becoming seriously disabled tomorrow. The moment it happens (if it ever does) is quite a bit too late to start advocating for the common good of disability assistance: by the time you know you need it (if you ever do) you REALLY want the system to already be in place. Of course, being born able-bodied and living to adulthood makes it less likely that you'll need such help since many are born with disabilities (obvious or latent), but weighing the still-extant chance of becoming disabled later in life against the extremely modest cost in tax dollars, it's still in no way irrational to support public disability care even if you are entirely selfish and give no thought for anyone's welfare but your own.
To be clear, the first two paragraphs don't describe a philosophically incoherent system: a complete anarchocapitalist might well take the position that actually zero public goods are worth the cost. But if that's where you're coming from then your priorities are very strange: disability care seems like it ought to be very far down the list of things any rational ancap should find worth the effort to oppose. And if that's not where you're coming from then I have to conclude that you're fundamentally confused about the concept of a "public good" overall: no reasonable parsing of the concept can produce the above conclusion.
This is a strange interpretation and does not follow from what I have written.
It most certainly does follow.
The entirety of your objection appears to be "this cannot be a public good because only a small fraction of the public receives significant direct benefit from it at any given time."
But this is true of almost all public goods, as I have outlined. If this criterion were used to exclude disability services from being a public good, it must necessarily exclude almost everything currently in that category. If there is some *other* criterion that you are applying by which disability services are excluded, but other public goods such as policing, healthcare, transportation and defence are not, you have entirely failed to outline it.
Your outline seems to be some strange mix of different people benefiting differently. I'm simply saying that there is no externality in disabled care. The same is not even close to being true of national defence. It is true of healthcare, but healthcare is also not a public good.
Yeah, the way we'd treat any illness. They pay with their money, insurance or state-provided $. My comment was not so much about "how would they pay" and more "if lacking an obviously reasonable standard of care" was pushing them to no longer wish to be alive, then we could try doing that first! Definitely I could imagine a scenario where someone said "the standard of care I think I need" is far too much, but "reasonable standard of care" has a general (if debateable) meaning.
>If Clayton had better social care and tools to live, might his quality of life have tipped over into livable? Maybe not in his case, but there are many cases where the life of the disabled is unlivable not because of the impairment, but because of the lack of support, inadequate housing and heating and care.
If this is the argument against euthanasia, then until this proposed remedy can be readily provided to everyone, and it can be demonstrated that it eliminates people’s desire to end extreme suffering, please allow people to end their extreme suffering by some other means. If someone is mortally miserable and you say you can imagine a situation in which it doesn’t have to be that way, that is not a solution.
Yes, personally I believe we should be providing doctor assisted euthanasia and just trying very hard to improve provision (and culture around the stigma of being dependant) so it is needed in fewer cases, much like I believe we should provide abortion services but also strive very hard to make provision for alternatives as good as possible so it is needed in fewer cases.
I just felt the article position was a bit of a straw man compared to the position I'd heard.
That’s commendable. Thanks.
Is there evidence for this in practice? It seems to me that the places with legal euthanasia are generally politically progressive and have strong social safety nets. I would be surprised to find that Oregon is less dedicated to providing for disabled people than Washington, or the Netherlands less so than Belgium. Maybe that is the case; it still seems unfair to the Claytons of the world, who would opt for euthanasia regardless, to tell them that they aren't allowed to have it because other people need better social services.
I don't think there are any comprehensive statistics, but there are anecdotes like https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/assisted-dying-maid-suicide-canada-homeless-b2233845.html and you'd expect most people affected to a) be dead and b) not be keen on talking about it beforehand because it might make their families etc feel guilty.
There are cases like this one, where a Canadian veteran allegedly spent five years unsuccessfully trying to get a wheelchair ramp installed in her house, only to be offered MAID instead: https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325
Can you see how the framing of the headline designs the way you're supposed to react to this? Or the way you say "only to be offered" translates to "and therefore the intent was to save money on having to install a ramp." It makes it sound like the same person they called for the ramp install was like "you know, it's too much work for me to build the ramp, have you considered dying instead?" I can certainly imagine problems or abuses in this system, but this is a news story that is designed to create a point of view, not inform.
If you've ever dealt with the gov agencies (at least in the US) that handle things like this, you know that "hey let's save money on this patient by euthanizing them" is - as bad as that sounds - honestly above their competency level. If they couldn't manage a wheelchair ramp for 5 years, undoubtably because of red tape forms not being filled out in triplicate, they couldn't manage this. Obviously the case worker shouldn't have said it, especially when the person was obviously expressing a desire to live, and in fact the gov says in the article "they shouldn't have done it, it's not how the policy works, it's absolutely a conversation with a doctor". I am the last person to apologize for the government, but this is just propaganda.
Politically progressive and have strong social safety nets - surely San Francisco's homelessness problem refutes any suggestion the two are correlated?
As mentioned above, with regards to euthanasia, the Netherlands are trailblazers in the world. Also, government support for the disabled is very good. Still, the great support here doesn't stop people from wanting euthanasia.
This is a great review. I did not enjoy reading it, however, but that is not the fault of the author.
The reviewer chose wisely. It's got enough effective altruism in it to be remembered as positive-valence for this community, and enough punch in the content that nobody will forget it. The title is evocative and sticky. I've already forgotten whether or not the review was well-written, but I won't have forgotten the title or the power when it comes time to vote. Admittedly, most of the readers here who vote at the end are far more conscientious than I am, but if more of the electorate were like myself this one would win first or second place for sure.
You stated it more eloquently, but yeah, it certainly had an impact on me.
I decided to not read it, which is my usual choice given a body horror content warning. The comments have been sufficient food for thought.
> In most places that have legalized it, the patient’s condition must be considered terminal (i.e. death is expected within six months) to be eligible for MAiD. The procedure itself is typically either an IV injection administered by a nurse, or a prescription cocktail of benzodiazepines, digoxin, and opioids which patients drink themselves.
Reason magazine has recently been demonstrating their total lack of journalistic, intellectual, or moral integrity by running a bunch of columns claiming that suffocation by nitrogen is a horrifying, inhumane death.
In reality, we know that people who die this way fail to notice that anything is wrong, which is why, where there's any risk of funny atmospheric conditions, there are warning signs and cumbersome safety protocols and strict directives like "if you see your partner collapse, do not attempt to save him, no matter what".
Nitrogen suffocation ("hypoxia") is also the way we euthanize pets.
Why would we euthanize humans by injection? What's going wrong here?
All those columns seem to be by the same person. Yes, I agree that allowing them to be run demonstrates deficiencies in "journalistic, intellectual, or moral integrity", but I wouldn't go so far as to describe it as a "total lack" thereof.
Yeah, it's an interesting fact that the suffocation under normal conditions is torturous not because of a lack of oxygen but rather because of an increase in carbon dioxide.
https://www.democracynow.org/2024/1/30/nitrogen_gas_execution
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2024/jan/26/alabama-nitrogen-gas-execution-torture
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-68085513
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/alabama-execution-nitrogen-gas-kenneth-eugene-smith-tortue-united-nations-human-rights-warns/
You seem very confident that nitrogen hypoxia (at least, as implemented by Alabama and soon Ohio as well) is a basically unimpeachable way to kill someone, for all the diversity of sources disagreeing with you. Reason Magazine is not the only one, it's also...the eyewitnesses...
This is all so dumb because hanging, beheading & firing squad are all time-tested means of executing people that we just don't use for no good reason.
the mechanism of death for those are (a) definitely not fast, humane, or reliable ways to kill, and (b) they look vindictive, which for good reasons we've moved away from
Not reliable? Who is surviving them? I suppose if you have complete incompetents carrying them out they could drop people from a short height, fail to hit a vital organ, or use a dull blade with little force, but we've had plenty experience in figuring out what conditions will cause successful executions.
As for speed, I believe they're all faster than gas or injection.
Long drop hanging where the object is to snap the neck rather than suffocate is one of the quickest and most painless ways to kill. Meanwhile, there are multiple stories of the "humane" cocktail of drugs given for modern executions resulting in severe pain upon injection.
Regarding long drop hanging: is it though? I attempted to find arguments in favor of it on the webs and my impression was that it's all wishful thinking, contemporary cope, and current edginess.
Breaking your neck doesn't stop your heart from beating. It stops you from breathing, so you will slowly suffocate over several minutes.
*If* you're lucky, the noose will compress your neck arteries and you will pass out painlessly in seconds, but in my searches I've never seen it proposed as the primary mechanism of death.
So from these first principles and not seeing any credible discussion I have to conclude that long drop was adopted because it was certainly more efficient than short drop, but then the claim that it's painless and humane was invented from the whole cloth, as a cope. Of course you can't see that someone is in pain if they are paralyzed below the neck and there's a sack on their head.
Ugh, hadn't thought of that. Great point.
They should look vindictive: that's the point. Executing a man will not bring back his victims, but it's what he deserves for the crime he's committed. If we've moved away from "vindictive" punishments, then why do we try to fit punishments to the crime? Why don't we lock up rapists, thieves, and muggers until we're confident that they're rehabilitated? Why do we punish attempted murder less than murder? Because the purpose of the justice system is to mete out ordered and proportional retribution, in which wrongdoers are punished proportionally to the harm they have committed, regardless of whether such a proportional punishment would serve the purpose of rehabilitation or deterrence.
When TGGP mentioned beheading, I assumed that he was thinking of the guillotine which is very fast, humane and reliable.
As an opponent of the death penalty, I think that if a society decides to kill one of theirs against his will, sugar-coating that by emulating medical procedures is positively obscene.
If you can't handle the head in the basket and all the blood (I probably could not), then you should not watch executions.
I think there are some decent reasons not to use them: Because they kill by damaging the body in grotesque visible ways, they probably cause more anticipatory terror for the person who is going to be executed. And if you view that as an acceptable part of the criminal's punishment, consider the distress of their family and friends. Hanging, beheading or shooting the condemned are probably more distressing to those who carry out the execution, more likely to produce ptsd and other anxiety disorders, then are gassing the person or giving them a lethal injection.
Also, these punishments desensitize the public to images of mutilation. Seems to me useful to have a lot of people who are horrified by the idea of mutilating bodies. It's plausible that being horrified by mutilation reduces the chance of someone violently assaulting someone else.
I don't believe there's evidence for such claims.
Well, certainly nobody has tested them in executions, comparing gory kill subject to non-gory kill ones. But do you think there is no indirect evidence, and/or not enough common sense evidence to make these ideas worth testing in a targeted way? I am confident that if I was going to be executed I would have more fear of death by beheading than of death by gas, and that if a loved one of mine was going to be executed I would be find the prospect of their being beheaded more distressing than the process of them dying in a less gory fashion. I may be wrong, of course, but my experience about this sort of thing is that I anticipate accurately how much something is going to horrify me. For instance, if I am considering watching a certain horror film, I find out ahead of time how gory it's going to be, just so I'll be prepared. My expectation of how much especially gory scenes are going to bother me is generally quite accurate.
Long drop hanging isn't gory except in the rare cases where the head pops off. The British used to give reprieves to people with the wrong sort of neck so this didn't happen. In Canada, I think we did have a head popping off case in the 1950s. Albert Pierrepoint, who did more judicial hangings than anyone else in history was a mild gentle person who did not seem to suffer psychologically from his vocation as an executioner.
Very persuasive, especially if you bear in mind that the timid can open umbrellas before the person drops, so that that any blood-spraying flying heads bounce harmlessly off the canopy.
The head popping off was a problem in the late 19th century when excessively long drops were used. After they got things sorted out it only happened with people whose neck was unusually unsuited for hanging,and that problem was solved in Britain by giving such people a reprieve so that they received a life sentence with typically ten years before parole.
I just *love* solved problems. This problem, though, does seem to need a bit of tweaking, before getting placed into the Totally Solved category. Here are some proposed tweaks. (1 Must be a bit stressful for the condemned and their families, waiting to get the results of their neck eval. Since those with bull necks are going to suffer a fate approximately infinitely as bad as those with weak skinny ones, how about we give their family an infinite amount of money to even the score?. (2) Also, I would recommend umbrellas even for executions where the condemned passed the strong neck test with flying colors. In the case of flying heads, even those with neutral facial expressions, the novel experience of getting thumped by a head even with a laid-back look on its face is likely to leave a strong impression. And then there's the blood. So I recommend having available, and perhaps even making mandatory, prophyocephalic umbrellas for the witnesses, on the prinicple of better safe than sorry.
Well you’ve convinced me. I’m 100% for bringing back hanging. It seems insane to me that we can barely bring ourselves to execute even the most violent criminals anymore. I agree wrongful conviction is horrible thing, and we should try extremely hard to make sure it doesn’t happen… But it’s unfortunately unavoidable that it will sometimes happen; as long the rate is very small, it’s something we just need to accept. Demanding 100% certainty mean no one could be punished for anything and no laws could ever be enforced. And…call it “eugenics” (which it is) and clutch your pearls all you want; allowing psychopaths and violent criminals to reproduce means our descendants will live in a world with more violent predators. I’m not sure how conjugal visits actually work…but if we can’t bring ourselves to execute, we absolutely should not allow murderers and rapists to reproduce under any circumstances.
The thing I thought remarkable about capital punishment in both Britain and Canada was that we regarded life imprisonment with parole after ten years to be the closest substitute and replacement for death by hanging. Between the de-facto abolition of capital punishment in 1963 and the de jure abolition in 1976 the normal term of imprisonment for those sentenced to death in Canada was 10 years.
What would you think about castrating male violent offenders who would otherwise be sentenced to death? That’s quite a severe punishment, might be a more-feared punishment than death for these guys, stops them from passing on their genes and prevents rape.
It is still a problem in parts of the world. If I remember correctly, when they hanged Saddam Hussein his head popped off. It was not deliberate: The executioners lacked specialized knowledge of the length of the drop relative to the weight of the person to be hanged, and similar stuff.
...If you want painfree executions that never go wrong the Guillotine is superior to hanging. The victim is locked in place, and no skill is required on behalf of the executioner - you just release a lever.
...A shot in the back of the head also probably has a lower error rate (causes less unneccessary suffering) than hanging, since it takes less specialized knowledge & skill to successfully shoot someone than to successfully hang someone.
All three would kill more quickly & certainly on first try (and therefore arguably be more humane) than the electric chair (with the fairly low voltage used) and lethal injections. But the body will look less aesthetic afterwards, and this trumphs more humane concerns.
"Common sense evidence" is not "evidence". It's just "I think", without evidence.
Good grief, do you think I don't know that.?: My point is that it seems plausible that the condemned, their families and the executioner would find execution via a method that mutilates the prisoner more disturbing than death via a method that does not. Some real life things that support this idea. (1) There are not many horror movies where the killer does his victims in by lethal injection or a gas that makes them just flop over unconscious, you know? It does not make for a good horror movie, presumably because murder by those methods is less horrifying. (2) Coroners normally restore damage to the body as well as they can if there is to be a viewing. There seem to be very few people who request that the bullet hole in the temple or whatever be left for friends and family to contemplate.
Do you actually think it's implausible that if we had a random selection of people rate the disturbingness of watching beheadings, death by lethal injection and death by gas the beheadings would get higher ratings?
So what I am saying is that it seems plausible to me that execution by beheading and other violent means may harm various people involved in a way that execution by less girly means do not. Before switching to beheadings we should run a coupla studes to get data about that.
Hanging isn't gory, particularly if it's long-drop hanging, which snaps the neck and kills the victim instantly.
As for the desensitising the public angle, there's no reason executions have to be held in public. Britain stopped public hangings during the Victorian era, for example, but still kept hanging itself for a century or more.
This is exactly why the Nazis invented gas chambers. It does seem that the choice of execution methods is more for the benefit of the executioners than for the executionee. If I had to go, I’d take the guillotine. Or maybe a shotgun directly to the head…something foolproof and instantaneous. I’ve heard hangings didn’t work plenty of times… I guess you could solve that by making the drop long enough. But wouldn’t that just make it a less clean method of beheading? I think definitely for fat people. Either way…seems like it would less stressful to not have to be dropped first.
> You seem very confident that nitrogen hypoxia (at least, as implemented by Alabama and soon Ohio as well) is a basically unimpeachable way to kill someone
This isn't a difficult question. Welcome to the "total lack of journalistic, intellectual, or moral integrity" club.
Do you just not have any concern for whether the things you say might be true?
> for all the diversity of sources disagreeing with you.
There is no end of people willing to declare that they are idiots in the service of an ideology. Mostly they're less transparent than this.
I think we should avoiding discussing methods of do-it-yourself suicide in this discussion. In a group this size there are guaranteed to be people unhappy enough to be seriously considering suicide. The information about reliable and painless ways of doing it is not hard to find. If people considering suicide have not found it, it is because they have held back from doing so. It's not a good idea to post it someplace where they will run across it accidentally.
I disagree. If you're old enough to be internet-savvy, perhaps, but it's now non-trivial to find useful information, with (arguably well-intentioned) people actively taking it down everywhere they can, which includes almost all the "normal" places one would look for information, and recommending the fucking hotline instead. Worse, there is active deception, either to make attempts unsuccessful such as about the direction to slice wrists (For reference, "Sideways for attention, long way for results"), or from trolls hoping to make it slower/more painful.
I would definitely appreciate finding information useful to me serendipitously, and would resent people trying to prevent that arguing that because if I really wanted to, I could go through the effort to find it elsewhere. I see no reason information about how to commit suicide is an exception.
Sadly, it's not just controversial topics. It's hard to find useful information on almost any topic now'days. Even making good use of site search, keyword subtraction, and multiple engines. The combination of increased tech censoriousness, SEO-ification, and money-and-fear-motivated hostility to the userbase has enshittified the Internet to borderline unusability.
Tangential: https://danluu.com/seo-spam/
Very interesting, thank you.
I was not aware of marginalia.
Yeah, I think in general, if you already know enough of the answer, there are still ways to find it online (though that's usually just as useless as it sounds), but if you're completely lost, you're shit out of luck.
>has enshittified the Internet to borderline unusability.
Amen to that.
Internet searchability, we knew you for such a short time...
I know Gen Zs with very limited search skills, but frankly it doesn't seem to matter all that much anymore, since even good search skills don't yield very good results.
It's hard to see where people will get their information from in the future, since libraries no longer contain many books (and publishing is about as much of a shit-show as search engines are these days anyhow.)
Yes, I know about that. No matter how you phrase a question about means of suicide, all you get out of google is a wall of suicide hotlines etc. I even run into the same kind of problem when I ask google about withdrawal from various psych meds (I'm a psychologist, and often have patients whose MD is taking them off some psych med): I get yards and yards of links to addiction treatment places & the like. On the other hand, there are books about euthanasia available on Amazon that pull no punches when discussing means of ending life painlessly. There are also organizations whose goal is to assist people who need an escape hatch to find one.
I am not in favor of policies that made it hard or impossible to find information about drugs, suicide, etc. I am just asking the people posting here to refrain from talking in detail about the various methods of do-it-yourself suicide. In the present situation I do not think the concerns you have about the difficulty of finding info apply. This group is smart, well-educated, and internet savvy. Even if there actually are a few people posting here who are none of these things, they are likely to have aqaintances who are able to help them get info they need.
I really hope you will consider stepping back and reconsidering about this. I am not opposed to suicide for suffering people whose pain cannot be relieved. If a close friend of mine wanted to end their life and their reasons for doing so seemed valid and unchangeable to me, I would not only give them the info, I would assist them in carrying out their plan if they asked me to.
But that's entirely different from putting up the info in a place where somebody will stumble across it. I almost certainly have more knowledge and experience than you do about this matter, and you should pay attention to my view. I have training in the subject, I have taught myself more about it, and I have known and had long talks about despair and suicide with at least 100 people, most but not all of them patients. I also have had about a dozen people I know fairly well commit suicide. None were patients of mine, though 2 were former patients. One was a a grad school acquaintance who committed suicide while we were both in the program. The others had been patients on a psych ward where I worked, where I had a few talks with them, had them in groups I ran, and heard about them in rounds every day. One of the things I know about suicidal people is that many refrain from learning about the nuts and bolts of how to do it because they see that as the last barrier to going ahead with the act.
I want to thank you for your thoughtful comments here.
"One of the things I know about suicidal people is that many refrain from learning about the nuts and bolts of how to do it because they see that as the last barrier to going ahead with the act."
Could you complete this argument, i.e., how does this (or anything else in your post) make a case against giving information in these comment threads? (I will admit that I am slower and stupider than most people here, which is also why I appreciate potentially useful information wherever I can find them).
It's about trivial inconvenience being a real barrier. It's why sensible people make what they want to do easy and what they don't want to do hard.
Not knowing how to kill yourself easily makes it that little bit harder to be tempted to kill yourself.
I mean, why is this barrier sacrosanct while the fact that there are "books about euthanasia available on Amazon" is not? One is not necessarily selecting for "sensible" people this way, one is only selecting for people who are good at library science or something.
There was a period where I was seriously depressed or bipolar and intermittently suicidal. One time during a mental crisis I got partway through a suicide attempt (I was copying the method of a loved one who died), but I gave up after it became painful. If I’d had a faster and easier method at hand, I might have succeeded. After that, I made sure during my more active moods to avoid learning about easy ways to commit suicide and avoided possessing related tools.
I consider information about easy/comfortable ways to commit suicide to be a kind of info-hazard. I want people like the author of the book here to be able to find it, but I definitely oppose throwing the information around where people who didn’t go explicitly looking for it would find it.
Thank you for a clear and accusation-free articulation of the point, which I appreciate and respect. I am sorry that you went through such a difficult time earlier.
I appreciate your comments here and elsewhere in the thread. Given that the main thrust of the book - as I can tell from the review; I haven’t read it - is that suicide can be morally and practically defensible, I am curious about the underlying assumption for the request not to share practical information online. Anecdotally, it seems that the assumption of (U.S.?) psychologists is that suicide is always or almost always indefensible, or that the psychological motivators for it can and should be overcome or treated. Is that accurate? I don’t mean to be facetious, nor do I necessarily disagree that many or perhaps most suicides can and should be avoided – especially when the situations involve young people who might not appreciate the “permanent solution to a temporary problem” dynamic. I’m just curious whether standard psychological training or ethics rules allow for a “justified suicide,” whether along the lines discussed in the book or otherwise. On a related note, do you think that the suicide hotline warnings that inevitably accompany news articles on suicide are effective? I’ve always suspected they’re more about signaling - that suicide is bad and that treatment or therapy can help the underlying problem – rather than an effective prompt for someone to call a number. Nevertheless, they seem probably harmless, or perhaps “effective” in a broader sense of conveying a message. I do think there is one important exception to the “probably harmless” gloss: I recently saw the standard suicide hotline language on an article about a murder-suicide. (There was, of course, no prompt for those considering murder to call a hotline.) The focus on preventing the murderer from killing himself rather than his partner and kids, seems horrific and perverse.
> I am curious about the underlying assumption for the request not to share practical information online.
There is no underlying assumption for my request. The is a reason for my request and I have stated the reason every single time I have made the request: People who are toying with the idea of suicide often hold back from researching methods. They feel that their relative ignorance about whether painless and easy methods of suicide exist and how to get the materials for them is the last barrier between them and acting. My point is not that everyone else can and should keep them ignorant. It's that we should not toss the info around in places where they can come across it accidentally. I am not trying to hide the info from people like that. It's impossible to do anyhow. The info is easy to find. There are books on Amazon that give it. There are organizations for people who want to be able choose to exit life at a time of their choice-- organizations have websites, newsletters and forums. The chance is nil that somebody who can find this forum would not be able to find excellent info about the options online in a couple hours at most is tiny. So, for approximately the 6th time: I am no trying to keep them from finding the info. I am asking people not to toss it around in a forum where they might run across it. I suspect people keep failing to grasp that because it is much more fun to think of someone who makes a request like mine as a controlling, pearl-clutching advocate of censorship.
As for your questions: Mental health professionals are not taught that suicide is bad, or is always caused by mental illness, or is always treatable or is always indefensible. Mostly we are taught a variety of models of depression & a variety of treatment approaches, and read a bunch of research as a means of thinking clearly about the models and treatment approaches. Even if we were taught that suicide is bad, anybody with any gumption and common sense is going to object to efforts to control their views and will arrive at their own based on their observations and ethics. I, and most mental health professionals I know, have no problem with people whose suffering cannot be relieved being helped to voluntarily end their lives. On the other hand, we know from experience that most depressed people are sure they will never feel better, and most are wrong, so we are not enthused about people being helped to commit suicide under those circumstances. However, any shrink with common sense knows there is no way to prevent a determined person from finding a means of committing suicide. And no mental health professional with common sense thinks the desire to die is in all cases nothing but a treatable illness.
> The information about reliable and painless ways of doing it is not hard to find.
You might notice that I've already picked up one response arguing that I'm misrepresenting the facts.
I did notice that. Bear in mind that what I said only applies to the present discussion in the present group. Do you doubt that you, personally, would be able to separate the wheat from the chaff regarding nitrogen if you were lacking in info and wanted it? Or that you could find a book or organization that shared you view that people who want the info should be able to access it -- and that then provided full, accurate info? I am not in favor of anything like censorship of this subject in the media, on google, etc. I am talking about a precaution I think makes sense in this discussion among the people here. I wrote a longer case for my view in my response to Shankar S.
Do you think that, for the argument "why is formal euthanasia using these obviously inappropriate methods?", a review of why the methods are obviously inappropriate makes sense? Would it hurt the argument to disallow it from presenting supporting evidence?
In general, if you make an effort to suppress information, do you expect policies driven by that information to get better or worse? You can always hope that people like Leona are never entrusted with any decisionmaking authority, but the record is clear that that won't work out.
I do not think it should be illegal to post info about means of suicide online, or that people should be prevented from finding it. I am simply asking people not to discuss the efficacy of various do-it-yourself methods on an open forum read by thousands. The information is easy to find -- I know, because I found it, and believe me it did not take any extraordinary cleverness to find it. Even if I was the Sheriff of ACX and could make people STFU about whether and how nitrogen works I would be doing virtually nothing to suppress this information, because it is available all over the place. There are articles in the paper about states and countries that permit doctor-assisted suicide, and mentioning the means of bringing about death. Search google for euthanasia and you get books, some informative about ways and means. There are assisted suicide organizations with web sites, newletters and discussion forums. Stop turning this into a story about me clutching my pearls and trying to keep the little people from getting the facts, while you are being brave and freedom-loving. That is not the story here. As I have said in various places in the discussion, I have studied suicide, I have treated suicidal people, and in my time as a psychologist I have seen about a dozen people circle the suicide drain and eventually go down it. None were my patients, but 2 were former patients and the rest I knew moderately well. People who are thinking of committing suicide often hold back from learning the details about how to do it, because they have the sense that if they know how the will go ahead and take the step. Sometimes they are right about that. It is just not responsible to throw how-to information around in a setting where people can stumble on it.
Well, the situation looks like this:
- We have a significant problem with people who are at no risk of suicide not knowing basic facts.
- We have no significant problem with people who are at risk of suicide knowing the same facts.
The only possible conclusion here is that we need more publicity for the facts.
> I have studied suicide, I have treated suicidal people, and in my time as a psychologist I have seen about a dozen people circle the suicide drain and eventually go down it.
You don't sound like someone with a good grasp on the scale of the problem. You sound like someone who feels the problem is many thousands of times larger than it actually is.
Why should we keep using the wrong methods for euthanasia and execution out of concern for hypothetical people who aren't aware that they can commit suicide? In the first place, there are no such people. Everyone is well aware that they can use guns, knives, and poison to kill themselves. In the second place, how is the remedy supposed to help with the problem?
> I am simply asking people not to discuss the efficacy of various do-it-yourself methods on an open forum read by thousands.
Is your argument that SSC is too big for information about suicide to be appropriate, or that it's too small for the lack of that information to make a difference?
And why did you bring suicide up at all in response to a point about executions?
Because people were explaining that nitrogen causes painless suffocation, and I do not think this is widely understood (in your reply to quiet_NaN you say that it is). Note that Shankar S. expressed surprise and interest when it was mentioned here, and he seems to be somebody with pretty high general knowledge. I myself did not know until 5 or 10 years ago that breathing pure nitrogen or helium suffocates someone without causing oxygen hunger, and I'm pretty sure I'm better informed about health and medical treatment than the average well-informed person. So you and various other people have now informed all readers of this thread that nitrogen offers a painless death. I'd guess that close to 50% of readers either did not know that breathing pure nitrogen kills you quickly, or that it does it without causing pain or oxygen hunger. Would not surprise me if before this is done somebody also posts info about how one acquires a tank of the stuff. Awesome!
I don't think, as you imply, that this info is no big deal, because "everyone is well aware that they can use guns, knives, and poison to kill themselves." Yes, of course everyone is well aware of that. However those methods are painful and mutilate the body. Most people are far less willing to do them than they are to use a quick, painless method that does not mutilate them. If that were not the case, people would have no interest in bills that make drug-assisted suicide lethal, or in traveling to Switzerland where they use either nitrogen or barbiturates. It is obvious that plenty of people who would like to die are only willing to do it via a painless non-violent method is. It's hard for me to see how you can fail to realize that.
"- We have a significant problem with people who are at no risk of suicide not knowing basic facts." Do you mean people making policies for executions, or carrying them out? Policy makers would certainly be able to access accurate info about what works. Even if they are dumb hacks that would have competent assistants. Seems to me that a big part of the problem with executions is that medical professionals refuse to give advice and training and pharmaceutical companies refuse to make barbiturates available for executions. It may be that another part is that prisons aren't particularly enthusiastic about making executions painless. And another part is that the people charged with carrying out the plan are goobers, and no MD, nurse or even a goddam dentist or veterinarian are advising them.
Killing someone painlessly is extremely easy, much easier than killing oneself painlessly. All you have to do is render them unconscious which MANY drugs can do, and then open an artery. Lethal injection, though over-complicated, would also work, but you have to be able to inject the correct quantity of each of several drugs into a vein. Finding a vein requires training. Even phlebotomists have trouble with it on a few people per day.
> Shankar S. expressed surprise and interest when it was mentioned here
Actually, I already knew the bit about inert gas asphyxiation, and learned it ~ten years ago, if that makes you revise your estimate for how common the knowledge is.
But on the flip side, my "pretty high general knowledge" is NOT how I learned this: I only found it through looking for it specifically, so I DO agree this is information that has deliberately been kept obscure (but okay, not SECRET). We disagree on whether that's a good thing.
Sorry, I must have misremembered where the comment came from — I thought it was you, and double-checking on this big messy thread looked so time-consuming that I skipped it. The person didn’t say they hadn’t known that inert gases suffocate you, just said they had not known that the person breathing them does not experience oxygen hunger, i.e. a feeling of suffocation. Could you have said that, or did you also already know there’s no feeling of suffocation with inert gases?
<so I DO agree this is information that has deliberately been kept obscure (but okay, not SECRET). We disagree on whether that's a good thing.
It’s as though you, and many other people on this thread, fall down some kind of reading comprehension manhole when they get to the parts of my posts when I explain what I am asking for and why. I have not said one goddam word in favor of google and other information sources keeping suicide how-to information obscure. What I have said, MANY TIMES in many posts, is that I think if is a bad idea to talk in detail *here* on this post about methods of suicide, especially quick and painless ones some people probably do not know about. And I gave my reason: The people posting here are mostly smart, educated and comfortable using the internet. If one of them is considering suicide and does not know all the options, it’s because they have not looked for them. They are not hard to find. It’s true that don’t get anywhere if you ask google for methods of suicide, but if you ask for books about euthanasia or for assisted suicide organizations good links pop up right away. And both of those information sources do tell people exactly what the options are and how to get the necessary materials and use them.
I don’t think it’s desirable to have people who are miserable and ruminating about suicide run across the info when they’re not searching for it. You can disagree with that if you like, though I think I have better qualifications than you for making a judgment, but I am really irritated at various people flexing their anti-censorship biceps at me. I am anti-censorship too. It is not censorship to tell people here that I work with suicidal people, and it is my opinion that it is somewhat dangerous to throw around info about a quick, painless way to die that a fair number of people do not know about.
For people who are sure it’s not dangerous — well then, the next time somebody posts on here that they are seriously considering suicide, how about if *you* respond to them. Some time in the last year there was a post on an open thread from somebody saying they believed suicide was the right choice for them, but would like to discuss some of the philosophical issues raised by the choice. They did not sound like a troll or an attention-seeker.. The post was low key, not a bit dramatic, and the person did not follow up with a further post to the sole reply they got. (You’d expect a troll or an attention-seeker to prolong the discussion and crank up the drama). The sole response was mine, by the way. There was also a dauntingly real-sounding suicidal post from somebody else some time during the couple years I’ve been reading ACX. I’ve forgotten the details now, but remember that it got few or no responses. I’m pretty sure I responded to it. There’s a lot of libertarian bicep flexing on here, but in the presence of someone who announces that they’re electing to die the flexing stops and everybody freezes. It’s a lot dicier to decide how to respond to someone who’s making such a dark choice. I talk with people like that for a living.
> Could you have said that, or did you also already know there’s no feeling of suffocation with inert gases?
Yes, that is THE interesting thing about it: a lack of oxygen killing you is obvious. But I think I might have remarked on in a way that could have been reasonably perceived as me having just learned it. Whatever. I didn't mention knowing it to show off, just to not skew your assessment of how widely-known it is.
If I had seen a comment here asking for painless ways to commit suicide, I would probably have replied suggesting inert gas asphyxiation (though I'd have thrown in some perfunctory remarks, "so much to live for" etc., first), so our disagreements might not be the kind that your qualifications bear on. You can call it "flexing" if you think my anti-censorship/libertarianism only goes down to muscle, but I strive to have it be bone-deep.
We happen to be here. The comments were posted here. If the theme of the post this comment section is under were anything other than suicide, I'd expect to find interesting information relating to it I wouldn't have known to look for. How you might counterfactually have responded if this were a different site, while I'm sure is very interesting to you, doesn't matter that much to me (and judging by how various people said similar things as me, anyone else here either): what you're explicitly asking is to make interesting facts about suicide more obscure than they would otherwise be, in a way that (if I didn't already happen to know this fact) would have affected ME, keeping me from learning something new. You pointing out that if I really wanted know it, I could have bought a book, is of little comfort when there are so many things I don't know to look for: that's part of the great joy of finding things out serendipitously.
FWIW, the bottleneck with nitrogen as a suicide method is not the information that a pure N2 atmosphere is lethal. Most people will not have a straightforward way to acquire N2.
But I agree we should probably not have a discussion about the best way to jury-rig a suicide using common household materials without advance preparation.
> FWIW, the bottleneck with nitrogen as a suicide method is not the information that a pure N2 atmosphere is lethal.
No kidding. It's not just nitrogen. An pure atmosphere of any substance other than oxygen will do the same thing. Methane, helium, fluorine, water, sand...
I'm pretty sure this is widely understood. Popular culture already emphasizes two different methods of killing yourself this way using common household items.
While you are correct, these methods vary widely by explosion risk and painfulness. With fluorine, I am not even sure if you would survive long enough to die of suffocation.
Let the record also state that I would expect CO2 to be highly unpleasant given how the body regulates breathing.
> With fluorine, I am not even sure if you would survive long enough to die of suffocation.
I had wondered about that too.
I think it damages the respiratory tract, so you might still die of suffocation, just in a different way.
HF might be the one you're thinking of, that dissolves flesh and bone.
I'm pretty sure that molecular fluorine will damage any part of you that it comes in contact with.
I found a review of the effects of exposure to fluorine and fluorides. ( https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK597858/ ) Mostly the impression it gives is that no one has ever been insane or sadistic enough to see what happens when an animal is exposed to an atmosphere of pure fluorine. However:
> When the shaved backs of New Zealand rabbits were exposed to fluorine gas under 40 pounds of pressure for 0.2–0.6 seconds at distances of 0.5–1.5 inches, the resulting burn appeared to be thermal, rather than chemical in nature. Exposure for 0.2 seconds produced an ischemic area about ¼ inch in diameter, surrounded by an erythematous area. This became a superficial eschar that sloughed off within 4 days, revealing normal epidermis. The longer exposures produced a flash of flame that resulted in combustion of hair, singeing, and erythema over an area several times the area of the primary burn.
Assuming that's 40 psi, it's about 3 atmospheres of pressure.
Pure fluorine is far, far, far above the concentration that would guarantee death, so the paper basically gives us a collection of symptoms with no information on how quickly each of them might set in. But by my read, you'd be dying of some combination of lack of oxygen (since the air is 100% fluorine), lack of oxygen (since your lungs will quickly stop working), and spontaneous combustion. There are various other undesirable effects that would kill you in, for the data collected by the paper that investigated much lower levels of exposure, probably a matter of weeks. I assume they'd be faster in the pure fluorine, but probably still too slow to compare with those three.
Another takeaway from this review was that there have been multiple studies assessing the effect of fluorine inhalation on human volunteers. I'm not sure what to think about that.
Interesting. Thanks.
> multiple studies assessing the effect of fluorine inhalation on human volunteers
Huh. I would not have expected that.
I remember looking into this when that first nitrogen hypoxia execution was done (being familiar with exit bags, my first instinct was "sounds good", so articles talking about apparent distress left me wondering), and one thing about it is that if you are executing someone with nitrogen, it's quite different from euthanizing them with it. If you are euthanized, you are consenting to the process, and will breathe normally; if you are unaware, you will breathe normally; but if you are being executed, you may (out of a hopeless desire to live) choose to hold your breath, which *will* trigger your body's asphyxiation responses, just like any other time you hold your breath.
All you need to do to prevent struggling in an execution is to fail to make it obvious when the nitrogen starts flowing. This doesn't seem like a good argument for using other methods; it remains the case that suffocation is as painless and unintrusive as it's possible to be. If those are goals, then they point toward suffocation.
And none of that addresses the concern of "why is euthanasia being done by injection or orally-administered poison?". Euthanasia is definitely not different from being euthanized.
The goobers carrying out the executions seem to be able to fuck up any method, and turn it from a means of knocking someone out painlessly into a new variety of torture.
If you're offered a painless knockout, and you choose not to take it, that's on you. If torture is involved at all, you're the one doing it to yourself.
People who are executed aren't offered a painless knockout.
Which execution do you think we're talking about here?
The emphasis on the "lifelong disabled" seems rather odd considering that the discussion starts with a quote from Stephen Hawking, who, er, wasn't disabled at birth.
Yeah seems like a weird oversight. The review definitely leaves one with the assumption that Hawking was disabled from birth. Given that he wasn't, he actually seems like a potential contradiction to the argument that follows his quote
But his disease was set in gradually, and he knew what was coming at every stage. Furthermore, I'm confident that of the things Hawking valued, his mind was the top of the list and in several places. So his value judgement was surely different from someone with different circumstances: his choice was correct for him, to live, and it may be correct for someone else to choose to die.
The judgement is the important thing. I can see no way to ensure a valid judgement, as some people, with proper mental treatment, might choose to live instead of die. And some may choose others to die rather than live, regardless of the victim's preferences, due to greed, misunderstanding, or other factors. How can someone's choice be validated as their right to choose unambiguously?
I'm willing to bet Hawking was getting excellent physical care.
That, but also, people vary in the balance of how much of their life is primarily mental vs physical. Compared to Clayton, many more of the things most valuable to my life are doable from a chair, so if we both started at the same level of happiness and then had the same accident, we would most likely end up in very different positions. Now, if this happened to the real me, there is a high chance I would kill myself, but I am also starting from a much lower baseline than he did.
It's very likely (though not certain) that he suffered serious abuse from his second wife - if you're completely dependent on others, you're vulnerable no matter your money, power, etc
This writer was a philosopher - his mind had plenty to offer if he was interested in using it.
Seems like he did philosophy in undergrad as a path to law school? I don't like to gatekeep 'philosopher' usually, but it seems unlikely that he was one in the sense that he had a passion for it, or would have seen making it his life's work meaningful or things like that.
I feel that the description of ableism in the article could be disputed. At least in the autism awareness movement circles I have been in lately (I know other disabled communities like deaf, blind etc may have different framings), there is a strand of people who want to actively emphasise the disability to themselves and wider society and not sidestep it and that this is a mixture of actual loss of function that makes life worse plus a social element that could be alleviated. The ableism in this reading comes in a few forms.
1. Not actually acknowledging the true nature and extent of the deficit experienced (which Clayton appears to have felt was the case, people just don’t want to think about something so uncomfortable); I am suffering and I want my pain acknowledged rather than dismissed as even existing (even if I do not truly know what it is like to be allistic I know that being autistic does cause me some types unavoidable suffering independent of social factors like sensory issues).
2. Society treating those with disabilities (typically subconsciously rather than explicitly unless they are totalitarians) as lesser people in the philosophical sense, as children, as half-humans, not fully capable of any degree of consent, or intellectual autonomy (again with Clayton the inability to accept that suicide was a reasonable response to his circumstances under his judgement of himself).
3. People being assholes and discriminatory to the disabled because they want to push away the other that makes them feel uncomfortable and lump all the “other” together as universally bad = immoral to get Nietzchean about it. This is not just a right wing thing. A live example recently I discussed was liberal people othering the MAGA QAnon crowd as “weird” and that making liberal autistic peope very bothered because the insults felt very autistic coded - and this makes some sense because autistic people are vulnerable to joining high control conspiratorial groups like QAnon - but falling back on such insults rather than targeting beliefs raised a lot of red flags.
4. All the above and a not great history combining to create a lack of trust between the autistic community and the medical community, even as the former really needs the help of the latter.
>This is not just a right wing thing. A live example recently I discussed was liberal people othering the MAGA QAnon crowd as “weird” and that making liberal autistic peope very bothered because the insults felt very autistic coded - and this makes some sense because autistic people are vulnerable to joining high control conspiratorial groups like QAnon - but falling back on such insults rather than targeting beliefs raised a lot of red flags.
But the truth is, "liberal" (I hate this American terminology) autistic people are differently "liberal". George Orwell in The Road To Wigan Pier contrasts obssessive Marxist theorizers and system-builders to "ordinary warm-hearted socialists" who just want to help the working class in some simple straightforward way...
While I definitely recognise the difference you and Orwell describe on the left I would protest that you are painting with too broad a brush if your implication is that all (even most) autistic liberals think one way that is very distinct from allistic liberals. I would acknowledge that a fair few autistic people are more inclined to be very deep into Marxist systematising than the average allistic person BUT I would emphasise that a) there are plenty of autistic people who are not rigid thinkers but pretty flexible (albeit sometime by consciously fighting their rigid instincts, although that can be an intellectual strength to recognise your cognitive weaknesses explicitly) and b) there are a lot of liberals who are not autistic who have such rigid thinking (there are simply not enough autistic people around for it to be otherwise).
All aside from the fact that in the long term you can't consistently get anywhere without a Weltanschauung because sooner or later there will be hard trade offs so some rigidity is inevitable. Even Rawls' conception of Political Liberalism - about the most flexible comprehensive political philosophy framework ever devised - still has some hard edges to protect its own integrity. What Orwell didn't fully acknowledge is that if you don't have an explicit framework there will be an implicit framework still there with the values of previous generations and dead philosophers lying unexamined within it.
I can assure you that the people calling QAnon people "weird" for a lot of autistic people has a very similar vibe to the misogynistic language that some "liberals" seem to slip into when denigrating hard right wing women.
I think it's more on display in the depictions of JD Vance as "weird". Granting that you might not want someone who's off-key in dealing with most people as a politician, it still seems like people who are opposing Vance for that reason are utterly merciless.
Literally just saw a Matt Yglesias piece on the "weird" trend go into my inbox just now. This is probably worth of its own discussion separate from the very relevant topics raised by the main piece that I don't want to derail. I am torn personally because objectively JD Vance (and Trump) are absolutely weird irrespective of their personal politics, but I have also spent my whole life also being called weird or - what is worse - being told not to BE, or more precisely not look/act externally, weird so it is triggering for me.
Now I know that people are calling them weird for different specific reasons (Trump's astonishing degree of narcissism for example, Vance's just total disregard for women's bodily autonomy) than I have always been called weird (autistic social style, not exactly cishet but not "straightforward" gay or a transwoman either) but at a generalised enough level the categorisation is still: normal = natural = socially acceptable = good/morally good; weird = unnatural = socially unacceptable = bad/evil.
More generally, I do genuinely believe Shaw was empirically right that "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man", but it does cut both ways. So the left pressing for intellectual conformity on the right risks stifling it on the left or any other dimension of politics (the right has been trying to narrow the field of debate and respectability politics for its whole existence!).
For any like me who went searching for a physical copy: https://www.2arms1head.com/
I would not have guessed disability advocacy groups to be the greatest enemy of recently crippled (I would have guessed that was the FDA), but they WOULD probably have been in my top three.
Online serial writer Wildbow is hard of hearing, and he's been very vocal about the deaf community forcing and shaming the curable deaf into staying disabled. It seems to just be human nature.
Yeah, those were the people I had in mind too, and my impression of disability advocacy groups is generalized from them.
Can you point me to any of his writings on this subject? A google search just directs me to his fiction. My son is hard of hearing, so I'm very interested in hearing what an adult has to say about his experience.
https://www.reddit.com/r/AskReddit/comments/18yphm/comment/c8jfv3t/
Its a problem caused by a philosophical opposition to natural law theory in favor of social constructivism. If all disability is a social construct, then there is no need to be "cured" because the idea that you have a "disease" is just society's, like, opinion, man; an opinion probably constructed to oppress disabled people by othering them and whatnot.
Natural law, on the other hand, holds that there is objectively such a creature as a "human" and that there is such a thing as a "normal" human and while there is room for deviation some humans are not "normal" in terms of their forms and abilities; a human "should" be able to hear, for instance, or "should" be able to move their legs. Therefore humans that can't hear, or are paraplegics, are abnormal humans with something wrong with them, and it would be a good thing for them if their abnormality could be fixed or mitigated.
Social constructivists would reject the natural law perspective as "othering" and "ableism" whose purpose must be to prop up the existing oppressive social construct of disability in an attempt to benefit oppressors at the expense of the oppressed.
I don't think yours is the typical usage of the term "natural law theory". It is my understanding that it's more about a connection between laws and morality, something like "a law which violates some inherent moral principle is not a true law", and contrasted with legal positivism, which is more "if it's backed up by enough force, sure it is."
Natural law bundles a lot of concepts that are all related to the idea that humans have a particular nature, a way humans “should be” which can be used as a standard of judgement and understanding. Applied to legal theory, laws are compared to the nature of man to see if they fit well with man’s nature or go against man’s nature (a nature that may contain natural rights that the law should not violate). Applied to morality it is used to guide ethical decision making (like “is giving the deaf the ability to hear immoral?). Applied to political theory it requires that system of government are built around man’s nature, and not in the expectation that human behavior can be built around the system of government. Applied to medicine it means that just because someone wants a medical procedure (such as an amputation, or surgically attaching an extra limb) doesn’t mean that providing that procedure would not be doing harm, as harm is understood in context of human nature as opposed to individual preference (a topic very relevant to the review at hand). Natural law has lots of applications and implications.
So it really IS just the classic "it's good iff it's natural" view?
Yes, but the word “natural” can be confused a bit, so a more precise formulation would be “it’s good for humans iff it is human”
Yes, "natural" definitely isn't being used in the dessicated sense of "anything occuring in nature" that it tends to be used in nowadays.
no; *the* essay "natural law" by spooner isnt simply an apply to nature fallacy, and in fact was arguing that slavery was immoral when other could claim it was natural and inediable
"So long as these conditions are fulfilled, men are at peace, and ought to remain at peace, with each other. But when either of these conditions is violated, men are at war. And they must necessarily remain at war until justice is re-established." -spooner, natural law; i.e. "tit for tat" before game thoery
What, then, is wrong with the natural law outlook? The review has the example of the four-armed alien, but we can easily construct other things.
Suppose we discover a way to make people telepathic. Even if it doesn't work for everyone, would we not want to give this ability to ANYONE because it's an artificial ability? In the same way, for someone born deaf, why would we not give them the ability to hear if we can and they want it?
Someone with a disability shouldn't be shamed by the disability, especially by others. But giving people abilities they want but don't have seems beneficial.
As someone who is very hostile to ableism discourse (and also happens to be hard of hearing and would love a good cure for it) the deaf community's attitude towards cures is an example I find to be more sympathetic than most.
I disagree with them, but... they have a culture. They have schools, they have real communities, and (most of all) they have a language. If deafness were to be suddenly cured en mass, it would be a wonderful thing on balance, but there really would be a true loss, similar in kind to the utter assimilation of an indigenous group
The other thing is that, as I understand it, the best current cure isn't all that good, but it's tempting for some people to insist that deaf people use it.
This is the main issue. If there were *actually* a cure for deafness that allowed people to hear similarly well to someone with natural hearing without significant risks or side effects, it would be easy to evaluate. But the real technology in question is nowhere near as good as natural hearing, comes with significant risks including death or further disability, and has side effects that are not universally tolerable.
A friend worked in a lab developing cochlear implants. She faced protests from the deaf community.
It’s true this technology will greatly reduce the number of people who will learn sign language. There goes a language (multiple actually), and a culture. I can understand the sadness, but not the protest.
> When I finished the last line, I shut down my computer, took a moment to stare off into space...
> ...And went for a very long walk.
There's an XKCD comic that makes me (and one of the characters) feel like this.
https://xkcd.com/667/
With deepest respect, meaning for the masses will not be found in amplifying pity porn. Depravity is a bottomless content trough. There are great opportunities that deserve parity attention from wise and capable ones as yourself, not a humble commenter.
How is this pity porn? In the book, Clayton doesn't ask for pity at all – he says that his life isn't worth living for him, and that he wants to end it. And then he sets out to do that, asking just for people to understand his condition and to make it legal for him to do what he would like. If anything it would be closer to outrage porn about bureaucratic paternalism.
Can we say his opinion was formed in a vacuum outside of his doctors consultations? Where are the doctors responsibilities in this?
I'm not sure what that has to do with my original question. What aspects of Two Arms and a Head, or this review of it, seem like pity porn to you?
Egregious appeal for understanding and normalization of a condition that feeds the readers internal narrative as a kind and compassionate actor through acquiring testimonial trivia. Did that definition help?
The book is not remotely an "appeal for normalization." Just the opposite.
Fair enough, "normalization" is just part of the spiel of the guilty seeking redemption I added for context. I withdraw it.
No. What on earth are you talking about?
His doctors did not encourage him towards suicide in any way. In fact while he doesn't use the word, he says doctors gaslit him when he talked about his loss of quality of life. Eg, pretending that having sex while unable to move or feel his junk ought to be just as satisfying, or a psychiatrist diagnosing his frustration with his condition as depression.
Were How the War Was Won and Nine Lives intentionally left out? Going by the original list (alphabetival ordering), we should have had these two reviwews already, but they were skipped.
It's *technically* a contest. Starting a few months ago, the commentariat was supposed to read a randomized subset of reviews (or titles that caught their attention), rate them out of 5 stars, and then Scott would officially post the highest-ranked entries. The entries that get officially posted are finalists.
I say "technically", since reading the entries is its own reward. I, for one, would be perfectly happy if Scott just posted everything (within reason). But that's neither here nor there.
I read this in August 2022, all in one sitting, right before I was about to leave for a two-thousand mile motorcycle trip to go to a philosophy conference. I cried at the ending. Clayton really resonated with me, or at least who I was at the time. I later got a tattoo of a knife on my stomach to commemorate his loss, and to remind that both that it's important to do the things that give my life meaning, and to ensure that I don't die or get grievously injured doing them.
Clayton was a reckless, brash fool of a motorcyclist, and his tragedy could have been avoided if he had better respected the danger of motorcycling. In the book, he says that his motorcycle safety course didn't prepare him. That's true – the motorcycle safety courses are a reasonable start but woefully insufficient. But he should have had more heroic responsibility (the concept from HPMOR) or more soloist's mindset (from rock climbing) – my life is my responsibility, and if it's someone else's fault that I die, I am still dead, and having someone to blame isn't super useful to me. So I must make sure I don't die, myself, instead of trusting such an important thing to others.
I recently rode my motorcycle across the country via dirt roads and backroads, and I re-read Two Arms and a Head on my kindle at camp to keep grounded and to remind myself to ride safely. I crashed my motorcycle once or twice, depending on how you count, but I only had minor injuries, because I wore very very good protective gear, I rode fairly slowly, and I slowed down extremely when road conditions were bad. Clayton swerved off the road because he saw a donkey, hitting a tree and getting paralyzed; I routinely went around blind corners to find a herd of cows on the road, and was able to come to a complete stop because I went slow enough that I would be able to stop in time.
You can read about my trip here, if you're interested: https://meaningfulagency.substack.com/p/leaving-cambridge
Every time I remember Clayton's story I end up not being able to bring myself to ride my motorcycle until I've forgotten about it again. And I don't think I'm a reckless motorcyclists. (I've crashed twice; both time without injury on the racetrack). I just think that no matter how careful I am I might still end up in his position.
I do agree that the MSF is not going to prepare you for the trip he took. He needed a lot more riding with more experienced riders before he should have done a trip like this one. Track days might have saved him. You really learn how much braking you can do on the racetrack.
Last summer, I went out rock climbing in Scotland. I was free soloing. I employed the soloist mindset. Everything went okay.
The next day I went regular climbing with a friend. Ropes, helmets, gear, and decades of experience between us. 6 m from the top of the route all of the rocks collapsed and all my gear failed. I landed on my head, after breaking both my arms and broke my neck. I'm quadriplegic, which is considerably worse than the paraplegia than Clayton suffered.
If you think that you are being safe by slowing down when you go around corners in case the cows are there, and the odds are now tolerably in your favour... I'm afraid it just doesn't really work like that when the chips come down. It's just you're telling yourself to make yourself feel better. Which is fine. Christ, I used to do it constantly. like how I banned myself from motorcycles because they were too dangerous and I didn't want to end up with a spinal cord injury because I wanted to keep climbing.
Just be honest with yourself, that you're not really making anything safer because if it happens, it happens. Just hope that it doesn't.
Hi, that was an astonishing comment. Thanks for that.
Obviously we are all playing the odds constantly and it isn't always clear to what degree (or even in what direction) our choices may affect any outcome.
Your attitude of stoicism or skepticism is healthy, regardless of how many working eyes one has.
I don't judge life's fulfillment upon limbs so I can in all honesty wish you an absolutely fulfilling life.
Thanks again for your comment and have a pleasant day.
Not sure I agree - I think you can make an activity safer by taking precautions but the real lesson is that nothing is ever one hundred pro percent risk free. Plenty of people die at home from preventable causes as well, like tripping on stairs and falling.
Yes, but I'm not sure that's an important lesson. You are still better off moving the odds in your favour.
I would contend that you are moving them much less than you think you are. To the point where it's often much more negligible than we like to think. We all have a cognitive bias to think we are doing more than we really are when it comes to the odds. Especially when this "allows "us to do something we actually really want to do. I could be wrong. But I'm pretty sure this is a fairly common feature of human psychology. And my guess is that in the grand cosmic scheme of shit you can control versus shit you can't, the latter is so overwhelmingly important that the former (aside from cases in the extreme) doesn't move the dial much, and moves it a lot less than we tend to (like to) think it does.
Yes, slowing down to avoid possible cows that one cannot yet see is better than driving around the corner like a maniac. But if you really want to put them in your favour, don't just don't ride motorbikes at all. Which of course leads to the "well you might as well just stay at home but then people die at home" point. And given that you *like* motorbikes/ rock climbing, you are sure as hell not going to do that. So you do some stuff that tells you you've put the odds in your favour and out you go. And for most people most of the time, that works out just fine.
I wish I was most people
Yes, I'm fairly sure I move the odds a lot in my favour by _not_ motorbiking. (I agree that slowing down occasionally would move the odds only slightly at best.)
Yes, people die at home, too. But that was a silly 'point' to begin with: your odds *are* much better at home than out on motorbike in the middle of nowhere.
And any climbing I do is in well maintained indoor climbing gyms.
Of course, there are some tradeoffs to be made. I don't spend all my live in my adopted home of Singapore, but occasionally visit less safe countries (ie pretty much anywhere in the rest of the world apart from perhaps Japan or so) for holiday or business.
The main thing I fret about isn't actually accidents, but getting Parkinson's later. Given that I have a few family members on both sides with that.
I'm sorry that a very unlikely but very injurious thing happened to you, but it's plain silly to argue that taking reasonable precautions against much more common, avoidable hazards "doesn't move the dial much." Of course it does. Common things are common.
I used to read "Accidents in North American Mountaineering" cover to cover each year, hoping that would help me avoid becoming a victim myself.
It always seemed like I could put them into 3 main categories:
1/3 of the accidents were some avoidable mistake (like rappelling off the end of the rope after failing to find the midpoint)
1/3 of the accidents were happening to people doing extreme climbs I would never attempt.
1/3 of the accidents were just wrong place and wrong time, and there's not a damn thing I could do if I were in the same position.
Sounds like maybe you ended up in the latter group. I'm sorry to hear that, but I appreciate that you're here talking about your experience.
Yes, wrong place wrong time. Climbing many grades below my ability. "Could have happened to anyone" etc.
I genuinely wish I had just died. That way whilst my life would still have been over, at least I would't know about it and have to watch.
Holy shit. I'm so sorry.
**Edit** I've now read a few of Paul's posts, and the worst part is how determined he was to make the best of things immediately after the accident, compared to his mental state now. People in these comments accusing him of not trying hard enough to adapt are just factually wrong.
This has actually brought up an unpleasant memory for me: a few years ago, I was scrambling in Glencoe with a couple of friends - employing soloist mindset and many grades below our limit! - when one of my friends slipped and fell about forty metres. We performed CPR on him for an hour until the mountain rescue team arrived, but he'd broken his neck and much else besides and was pronounced dead in the helicopter. One of the things that kept us going was the belief that most newly-disabled people struggle at first but eventually come to terms with their new life and are glad to have survived; but having read Paul's story I'm wondering if we should have just gone for a beer instead.
Reading about the four-armed aliens doesn’t make me feel sad about having only two arms. I already know what it’s like to have two arms: life is good! Instead, realizing how much higher there is to go gives me *envy.* Let’s develop the technology to heal disabled people and also the technology to let everyone go beyond the default!
The four-armed alien analogy doesn't work. Arms are one of many, many things where most of the value comes from the first one. It might be better to have more. But people don't go into crisis when they're reduced from two arms to one, which is worse than going from four to two.
I think you missed the point of the metaphor: what we see as necessities versus conveniences is limited by our experiences.
You could easily imagine a species like monkeys with prehensile tails that loses a limb we don’t have and experiencing a massive reduction in quality of life, or an animal like a shark losing a sense we don’t even have and feeling absolutely devastated. But to human lives, having those traits would “feel like” a convenience because we don’t “need” them.
Maybe you could criticize the author for trying to use a metaphor to explain the ineffable, but trying to come up with a scenario where “you are disabled and don’t even know it” will never work because permanent disability is ineffable.
> or an animal like a shark losing a sense we don’t even have and feeling absolutely devastated. But to human lives, having those traits would “feel like” a convenience because we don’t “need” them.
On the contrary, I don't think anyone would fail to understand that losing the ability to find food would ruin a shark's life.
The problem with the arms metaphor is that it's very, very poorly chosen, and this is obvious by comparison to a human losing half of their own arms, which has nothing like the impact that the example assures us it should, despite -- again -- being more serious.
(The other problem is the choice of grocery load as an example. Humans have the option, just as much as four-armed aliens do, to limit what they're carrying to an amount that leaves one hand free. The supposed advantage of extra arms there isn't even real - if you overload yourself when you have two arms, you'll also overload yourself when you have four, because this is purely a fact about your personal style.)
Yeah, this reminds me of when Edward Elric (from Fullmetal Alchemist Brotherhood) keeps talking about getting THEIR bodies back when his brother has actually lost his body and he himself has lost almost nothing, and great automail prostheses replacing what little he did.
2 arms -> 1 arm is a much smaller gap in quality of life vs 1 arm -> no arms. similar principles apply for 2 legs -> 1 leg, etc. I think the normal 2 armed, 2 legged human body is actually pretty darn convenient. The only obvious improvements i could possibly imagine would be a human body that doesn't need to eat / doesn't get dirty/smelly as fast / doesn't get sick -- but that seems pretty hard :)
> smelly as fast
The literature seems to suggest that primitive people don't exhibit body odor the same way we do, despite not washing frequently.
Really? I've always wondered about that. What's the evidence? And what's the explanation?
I can't remember where I read this. From memory, the evidence was explorer testimony, which runs into problems in the case where all explorers are Europeans.
Searching the internet of today seems to be useless; I can't even find stuff that's on topic. Everyone wants to discuss what things were like in early modern Europe. I did find one report from someone who spent a ~2 week period visiting the Hadza, who mentioned that they were aware of the concept of body odor, that the men washed themselves in mud puddles, and that the women didn't wash because the men preferred it that way. Annoyingly, he didn't actually comment on the odor.
I know someone who has done quite a lot of backpacking, big-wall climbing etc. who has says that after 2 weeks your body odor and the grime on your skin don't get any worse. You're asymptotic.
I don't know if this is directly related to odor, but there were experiments on astronauts to simulate long-term living in space. Bathing is impractical for obvious reasons, so the test subjects went without for weeks. The human body tries to maintain a covering of oily gunk (with the much more aesthetically pleasing technical term of sebum), probably for insulation or water proofing. Modern bathing strips most of the sebum everyday, and then the body feels it doesn't have enough and produces more than usual to compensate. They found that after ~five days of no bathing, the body mostly stopped producing more sebum. So cleaning your body actually makes it produce much more filth in the short term.
Back when we were young, my brother tried an experiment of not washing his hair over the summer holidays. We found it didn't get greasy (or rather, it did for the first few days, then got un-greasy again), but it did smell worse than before (although, IIRC, only if you actually stuck your nose close to it, rather than "Pew, what's that awful smell? Oh, right, my brother's just entered the room" levels).
Perhaps wearing clothes encourages skin bacteria to flourish beneath them, more so than on those primitive people if these are running about practically naked!
Also, could it be that washing with soap tends to eliminate the innocuous bacteria in preference to their stinkier cousins, so the latter are more likely to proliferate with less competition?
As I believe soldiers in the field soon find out, in the absence of washing facilities, if everyone is dirty/smelly, after a while nobody notices it!
I just skimmed quickly over that because I know I evolve to have 2 arms. A species that evolved to have 4 would presumably be hampered by having only 2 (or 3).
All their technology, recipe books, etc would assume four-handedness.
Really? As someone who enjoys DIY projects on a certain level but it clumsy enough that every project involves some minor injury, being able to saw 2x4s without having to depend on clamps seems so awesome that I'm now ripping pissed that I can't. I'm actually sort of pissed at the OP for bringing it up.
This might be the best book review so far. Well written, touches on a topic that Scott has brought up many times before (with a well-placed link to one, even), and (perhaps most importantly for these reviews) not overwhelmingly long. Even the concluding sentence is well done.
I wouldn't be surprised if this is one of Scott's secret entries, but if not, props to the author.
Anyone else notice that all of the controversial maid deaths are young women specifically? There’s gotta be something to that.
Eh, I don't really see the argument for not disclosing what qualified someone for euthanasia. If having people know what's wrong is a fate worse than death... it won't matter, because you picked death.
There's more to be gained from transparency in the process that officially kills people than there is from secrecy.
1. If the goal is "dying with dignity," privacy may be a necessary component of dignity.
2. If it's "MEDICAL assistance in dying," why wouldn't privacy rights apply?
3. In this specific case of the father trying to prevent the person from obtaining MAID, that the father didn't respect their wishes seems like an indication the person had specific reasons to keep their life private from him.
1. "Dying with dignity" is about bringing dignity to the process of dying, not pretending that the problem "dying with dignity" exists to solve already provides dignity. If it did that, you wouldn't need to die with dignity.
2. Because they conflict with the "ASSISTANCE IN DYING" part of "medical assistance in dying".
3. No, it doesn't. With no disclosed reason for killing the person, nobody is going to respect their wish to be killed. It tends to be controversial even when a reason exists. A father failing to respect those wishes is just an example of good parenting.
Males are more disposable, so there's less controversy over their deaths.
Or perhaps women are traditionally not regarded as having full ownership of their lives, so there's more social affront and controversy when they dispose of same.
(Neither has much explanatory power, I suspect, but just-so stories cut both ways.)
A way to distinguish the predictions of theories: women would have been perceived as having less ownership of their lives when married, so compare married vs unmarried women.
Maybe, if you think society's sentiments are sufficiently granular to respond to that distinction. I'm not sure they are. The woman is seen as a daughter, a potential wife, a wife, a mother, and so on, but never quite as the mistress of her fate and the captain of her soul.
(An old-school feminist critique, but one with which I find myself in sympathy. That nonsense still sloshes about in the water, even in 2024, as we've recently had occasion to be reminded.)
Traditionally, unmarried women were seen as under their father's direction, so I'm not sure that'd work.
A potentially better distinguisher: see how people react when women vs. men die of other causes? If there's a natural disaster, plane crash, sinking ship that takes most passengers with it, etc., will the female or male victims get more coverage? How do we treat diseases that disproportionately kill women as compared to diseases that disproportionately kill men? How are female murder victims covered compared to male ones? In all these cases, I'm pretty confident that women tend to get both more and more sympathetic coverage.
> Traditionally, unmarried women were seen as under their father's direction, so I'm not sure that'd work.
Would that apply if the women doesn't live near her father? Perhaps she was never raised by her father, which has become common?
From what I've seen, there are quite a few people who have a mental image of how things should be, and don't make allowances for circumstances. Or they might make allowances for people they're close to, but not for anyone else.
IIRC A number of the high-profile, controversial MAID cases are around patients suffering from conditions like treatment-resistant eating disorders or trauma from sexual abuse, both of which disproportionately affect young women. I also suspect that part of this is due to the same reason that men are more likely to commit suicide even though women attempt it far more often -- suicidal men would probably just shoot themselves rather than go through the MAID process.
I also suspect that the young woman mentioned here had treatment-resistant anorexia.
This is consistent both with her father's claim that her physical symptoms were caused by mental problems and with her ability to voluntary stop eating.
Like other commenters, I read this book several years ago and was deeply moved by it. But reading this review made me wonder if there shouldn't be some more skepticism about Atreus's reliability as an author.
As you say, he is very arrogant and definitely needed an editor. But there are other elements on top of this that seem odd. For one, I remember reading someone suggest that the ending probably isn't literally true. That is, it seems like he didn't really write it as he was bleeding to death, but it was more of a fantasy of what might happen, written before he did the deed. I can't find the source on this now and would be grateful if any other commenters have it.
More broadly, Clayton comes across as a prideful and individualistic person. When he says that he *has* to work on this project completely alone, has no one to turn to for help, and can't tell ANYONE about his thoughts or desires lest they instantly lock him up forever in a nightmare asylum, should we really take this at face value? I'm not an expert in mental institutions, but Scott and others (Freddie deBoer?) have made it sound like this is not their M.O., at least not anymore. More likely, in the worst case he would be there for a couple weeks or months and put on medications which he could then stop taking as soon as he got out. And *nobody* he knew in the whole world, family or friends, are the least bit trustworthy, sympathetic? It seems like, if that's true, his world had some problems that go beyond the disability. (Or maybe he was a bit paranoid...)
It's not a big theme of the review, but IIRC Atreus also talks about seeing himself as a burden, a waste of resources, and things like that. I wonder what he would have thought about the SSC on the subject: https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/08/16/burdens/ . Maybe it wouldn't sway him - his self-worth wasn't just based on his ability to contribute, and he didn't think people like him could "enjoy ourselves in the ways that make us most human" either. But it seems relevant.
Psychologist here: I worked for several years at a mental hospital. It is definitely not true that just saying you would like to kill yourself will get you locked up indefinitely, at least in the US. I doubt it would even be possible to get the police to transport somebody to the ER by informing them that someone was saying they wished they were dead, or that they were seriously considering suicide, or that they were sure that they would commit suicide at some time in the future. To get the police involved you would have to say the person was saying they were going to commit suicide tonight -- or some time in the very near future.
And once someone is at a place where they could be hospitalized for suicidality, they are interviewed by a psychiatrist. Even if someone is there because they had told an acquaintance that they intended to commit suicide that night, I think it would be possible even at that point for the person to talk their way out of hospitalization by explaining convincingly that they were unhappy but had no plans for suicide -- they'd threatened suicide to get sympathy & attention.
And if the psychiatrist admits the person to the hospital over the person's objections, the hospital then has a limited period of time (a few days, in my state) to evaluate the person and present evidence to a judge that the person is a danger to themselves or others. And a judge would require much stronger evidence than a report that on the day of commitment the patient had told someone he was about to commit suicide, but that since then he had consistently denied having being suicidal.
And even if the judge committed the person, it would be for a limited period of time (I believe it's 30 days in my state), after which the hospital would have to offer fresh evidence at new commitment hearing.
Also, most people's insurance has limits on the number of inpatient psych treatment days it will cover. Hospitals rarely keep people beyond that limit.
Yeah, it is a flaw of this review that the reviewer seems to have accepted Clayton's incorrect belief that "the slightest whisper of suicidal ideation would have gotten him locked up in the psych ward."
And the idea that he was prevented from "putting his affairs in order"? Does Clayton/the reviewer think that writing your will gets you involuntarily committed? Not how it works.
It’s almost like Clayton should have talked to somebody else to get accurate feedback and understanding of his situation.
Judging by what’s said in the review he was utterly isolated. Where were his friends and family?
This is an unfair criticism. It's like saying, "It's not true that Stalin will send you to a Gulag for every joke you tell about him; this joke should be done in front of an audience of at least 3 people—so you really shouldn't be that worried about telling jokes about Stalin to your friend." The truth is, suicide ideation can absolutely endanger someone to be involuntarily hospitalized, and unless you're a mental health professional, it's impossible to know the details of enforcement. Even then, it's unclear how consistent the enforcement is.
I see this as victim-blaming and defending an unjust system.
I wouldn't say it's *impossible* to know.
But other than that, thanks for writing my comment for me. Just because it's possible to acquire the knowledge doesn't mean he could find a sufficiently trustworthy explainer without taking apparent-to-him risks.
I was also puzzled by the "if I tell anyone I contemplate suicide I will be locked up in a psych ward".
The system up here in Scandinavia where I live is quite similar to what you describe in the US. My hunch is that it is the common system everyhere. Also because of de-institutionalization of mental care, which has been a global tendency. De-institutionalization means that there are few places left where you can lock people up, and certainly not for extended periods, even if you should deem it beneficial for them.
>And *nobody* he knew in the whole world, family or friends, are the least bit trustworthy, sympathetic?<
While I have objections to this review, the paraplegic I know repeatedly makes it very clear that when they were injured, everyone they knew abandoned them, and they had to start their social life over from scratch right alongside their physical one. So, I believe Clayton when he says he has no one he can tell.
That's terrible. Can you say more about this, like why this person believes they were so thoroughly abandoned?
Long before my time, but the impression I got is they couldn't stand to see him that way, so they stopped seeing him at all. He was a very active guy, and his friends were very active guys, and his girlfriend was attracted to very active guys, and when he became bedridden and inactive they all left. Parents were already dead, none of the siblings had their acts together.
Wow.
"And *nobody* he knew in the whole world, family or friends, are the least bit trustworthy, sympathetic?"
The question isn't whether they're generally trustworthy or sympathetic, the question is whether he can tell someone and then, in a single sitting, convince them that the conventional wisdom of seeking help doesn't apply to him and that they also couldn't talk about this distressing request with anyone else. My assumption was he thought about it, couldn't think of anyone he was sure *enough* about, and decided not to risk it.
He also expressed concern over getting someone charged with a crime, but I'm not sure if that would apply to a friend who helped him get his affairs in order.
Given the pace that medicine is improving (as touched upon in this review) I think the best questions is not "Is that a life worth living" but rather "how long could a life like that be worth living if it if improvement would come?"
I'm a bit baffled why the writer would rather choose to stick a knife into his stomach rather than make an attempt to brainwash himself into a happier life. It makes me wonder (perhaps people who have read the full book can help with this) whether he had a support system of other friends / people who would continue to engage with him after he lost his health.
People who build their social lives around physical activities (sports, etc) rather than intellectual ones get some health benefits from that, of course, but more intellectual/humor/talking/reading focused hobbies seem more durable into the inevitable infirmity & old age that comes for us all.
He talks about friends and attending a support group, but he seems to have rejected a priori the idea that anyone else could have something to teach him about how to adjust. Other disabled people aren't disabled in the exact way he is, so they don't understand, etc.
The idea that others can’t provide useful advice without living your exact & complete experience is wildly destructive — the loss of Clayton’s life may be exhibit A there.
Because allowing yourself to be brainwashed would be to become somebody you don't want to be. You would rather die than become that other person. I'm not saying this is going to make sense to you. But having been quadriplegic for a year, I understand exactly what Clayton meant. I'm happy for people who can get beyond it and change who they are. Genuinely. But I don't think I'm one of them. I'm like Clayton.
Isn’t becoming brainwashed equivalent to “changing your mind / mindset” if you’re the one doing it? Shouldn’t you pick the mindset that helps you survive and serve your values? I’ve known many paralyzed people, and have a rare progressive disease that probably, eventually will render me T2 paralyzed. The fact that people with forewarning to their paralysis can mentally accept and accommodate that reality suggests that you might be able to accept and accommodate it too, if you give yourself the time and acceptance to do that.
I'm afraid the forewarning is quite a big deal. I wish I'd had some. instead I just woke up in the hospital one day having been asleep for a month and my life was fucking ruined.
Presumably you have the kind of time now with your day to spend time on therapy / reading old & good books / talking to a spiritual advisor / talking to friends to find a new place for yourself in the world.
Yes, I have hours and hours and hours to think about everything I've lost, which has been replaced with unmediated horror day after the day after day
How many books have you read? How many great movies watched? Maybe it might be meaningful to start counting.
I have not only read literally thousands, I've written three. Have you considered stepping back and wondering if perhaps it isn't entirely appropriate for you to patronisingly tell somebody in my situation how they should live?
I think you should live however you want to live — just trying to understand your situation a bit better.
It sounds like you expect to be in a similar situation to Paul someday, so you're experiencing his perspective on *his* life as a threat to your ability to feel that your *own* life will be worth living.
That is understandable, and I can hardly criticize it given the source. But it also perhaps means that you have a strong emotional bias which is rendering you a bit unfair to Paul, and it's making you deaf to anything he has to say that touches a nerve for you.
Maybe you two are just not good conversation partners for each other, given that your respective situations mean each person's attempt to communicate will only hurt the other.
I think we all come in with our own biases, and just because certain strings can be drawn more clearly than others doesn’t make them more/less legitimate. Most of my context for this has come from getting to know other people in a similar spot to Paul, and learning from them how they’ve adapted.
I don’t understand Paul’s response, at least not completely — it doesn’t align with the responses I’ve heard from other people in his situation. But Paul certainly resonates well with Clayton’s experience. My sense is that Clayton struggled tremendously with being lonely, and cut off from sources of connection that could help him find new meaning in his changed experience — and I wanted to see if Paul was in the same boat. It sounds like Paul has been well connected in a way that Clayton seemingly was not. I’m glad to hear that, sad that he still feels how he does, but ultimately I’m fully supportive of however Paul chooses to spend his time, or not spend his time, whatever the case may be — and I truly wish him all the best in a tough spot — he’d know better than I would what things are like for him there.
> I'm a bit baffled why the writer would rather choose to stick a knife into his stomach rather than make an attempt to brainwash himself into a happier life.
Reading the original text clarified this for me, because Clayton addresses it directly -- truth is one of his highest virtues, so he cannot and would not bring himself to self-brainwash.
How is he so confident that his worldview when he only knew the world as a healthy person was the truth? Why is he forever barred from changing that worldview to survive and serve values that matter to him?
>I'm a bit baffled why the writer would rather choose to stick a knife into his stomach rather than make an attempt to brainwash himself into a happier life.
I, in turn, am baffled why would you think of the latter as a superior option. But that's just life.
It’s weird how an audience of people who pride themselves on self-consistency and changing your mind to fit the evidence have so many people who are (a) currently alive, (b) not changing their opinion on much of anything, and (c) endorsing suicide over the option of changing your mind.
This was quite a good if depressing review. I knew a guy in high school who offed himself a few years ago for similar reasons (he suffered a massive head injury that left him with seemingly permanent vertigo, rendering him largely bed ridden). I never really wanted to think about what he must have been going through in his final months, but this review kinda forced me to do so. Great, now I might go kill *myself* too (note: black humor only).
I liked the length and level of engagement with the book. It wasn't a massive summary that made me feel like reading it was an inferior version of reading the book itself.
What I didn't like was how weakmanned the anti-MAID side was. MAID is a relatively recent thing in Canada and there's already been instances where it was offered to people who were asking for more supports and never mentioned suicide. These stories would have been better suited than the story of the father suing his daughter, which was really about privacy and obligations to disclose information.
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325
Another argument against MAID is that it demonstrates one of the problems of rule by experts. People seeking MAID in Canada need to get two medical professionals (I think both doctors and nurses qualify). Sounds good, right? Who are we laypersons to disagree if two medical experts agree that MAID is the appropriate remedy? In practice, it's no safeguard at all. You'll always be able to find two experts to sign off if you look long enough, and you don't have to look long. As time goes on, MAID advocates will have lists of those professionals too willing to tick the box, if they don't already. The line between expert and hired gun is thin.
The unassisted suicide section seemed incomplete. Couldn't people already refuse fluids and food and implement a do-not-resuscitate order? I might be wrong, but it doesn't seem difficult to intentionally shuffle off the mortal coil without MAID from the comfort of a hospital bed if you really want to. MAID seems to me not so much the right to die but the right to force the government to help you. Are the perverse incentives really worth making it marginally easier?
I agree the reviewer really didn’t give any credence and was pretty uncharitable to opposition to MAID in Canada. Being depressed or what have you is not the same as being paralyzed.
The reason the father suing the daughter case is so useful is because its one of the only cases where we have something other than a media report to go on (we have the court filings). The discrepancy between the media coverage and the court filings should cause people to update in the direction of being more sceptical of the media coverage of other MAID controversies.
I work in healthcare in Canada, in a role that has given me a lot of previous experience with media coverage that is disconnected from reality in other non-MAID situations. For structural reasons these stories tend to just be a patient saying something, a reporter repeating it, and nobody else being willing to give more than a vague CYA statement for legal reasons. A hospital is never going to tell the media "this person says they were denied healthcare for XYZ political or culture war reason, but actually its because their health condition doesn't make them a candidate for the care they wanted to receive", because it violates health privacy laws. Heck, we won't even say "but actually they refused to stop smoking in the ED, punched a nurse, smashed up a bunch of equipment, and got escorted out by security".
My instinct from having seen both the real case and the media coverage enough times, and based on the way many of the MAID stories are written, is that many of them also do not reflect reality. I am minorly against how Canada has implemented MAID. While it has less problems than most of our healthcare system, I don't want to downplay that there are real problems. But you would not hear about any of the real problems via media coverage of sensational cases, nor from talking to 99% of anti-MAID activists. (I will note that you are correct that doctor shopping is one of the real problems involved- though that problem is perhaps the opposite of a "rule by experts" problem)
I appreciate your first hand experience. As far as I can tell, the coverage on that case was pretty accurate. I've never read the CanLii on it, but I already knew that the determinative issue was disclosure based on what I read from CBC.
>Not willing to wait that long, the woman began a voluntary stoppage of eating and drinking (VSED) on May 28.
Do you have much experience witnessing people who start VSED? If so, how painful or otherwise unpleasant would you say it is? I mean apart from the unpleasantness from the ailment that might have instigated the VSED.
The hard part is overcoming your impulse to eat / drink. If you’re doped up on lots of happy drugs (palliative care) it seems not so bad.
> Couldn't people already refuse fluids and food and implement a do-not-resuscitate order?
I think that is possible, but unnecessarily *slow and painful*. If I ever wanted to kill myself, I would prefer to have a quick and painless method available.
(By "quick" I mean something that might require a few days or week of bureaucracy first, but the very process of killing, once it starts, should not take more than 5 minutes, preferably less.)
From what I've read, death from not drinking is quicker then all but the most liberal institutionalized suicide process takes and palliative care makes it not so painful.
This is, unfortunately, the most common way that most people with Alzheimer’s die (which is to say, a large percent of the population).
To be honest Alzheimer's sounds shitty enough that going out on happy drugs doesn't sound so unfortunate in comparison.
But ultimately, what was the problem? He was still able to kill himself despite the lack of assisted suicide. Did he expect society to let him further burden the people around him with the guilt of ending his life?
Those who are truly determined to end their own life will almost always have the means to do so. The suicidal will continue to die, quietly and alone, and society will tell itself that there was nothing that they could do. The world moves on with a clear conscience.
yes, most people can buy a kitchen knife on amazon these days. fwiw though, a quadriplegic or alzheimers patient would have a harder time following through.
He addressed that in the book, as I recall. What he really wanted was to be able to die with his loved ones with him. He really, really didn't want to have to die alone. But he didn't feel able to ask for his loved ones be present at his death, either because he was afraid they'd refuse and try to prevent them, or because he was afraid they could get charged with murder, or both.
Maybe he should have chosen to live surrounded by friends, not just die surrounded by them. As it happens he died alone. I ctrl-F’d the word friend in the piece, it shows up 24 times, almost all of them are references to the audience, not to any specific friends he went to seek support and companionship from.
What he didn't understand is that, regardless of the law, having anyone present at his suicide would make those people complicit in his death. Suicide is already a selfish act. Why would he expect others to sacrifice their peace of mind just to aid in his death, something that those people don't even want to happen in the first place?
Skimming through the book, he claims multiple times that he doesn't believe in morals. If so, he should have also understood that humanity owed him nothing. That he deserved nothing. He was lucky that he had the will and means to die. It was presumptuous of him to ask for anything more.
Presumably his friends couldn't be held to be complicit if they were present only virtually, via a Zoom meeting for example, and did not know the guy's location (so they couldn't be blamed for not promptly alerting the police).
I just imagined someone stabbing themselves with a knife... and then spending their remaining time watching Windows restarting and installing updates.
Suppose someone is disabled in such a way that they require 24-hour care from others, and they cannot afford to pay for such services themselves, so are relying on society to pay it for them. In that case, you could equally well make the argument that this person "deserves nothing" and that it's "presumptuous" of them to expect society to shell out all these resources to preserve their life.
Would you agree with that argument? And if not, why can't you find a little sympathy for the comparatively small "selfishness" of wanting to die peacefully with someone by his side, rather than bleeding to death alone? Sure, no one "owes" him that, but no one is "owed" the various forms of help they'll need to remain alive with a sufficiently severe disability either. Hell, babies aren't owed food and shelter, as far as I can see--what have they done to deserve it? Someone doesn't have to be *owed* something for it to be appropriate for them to ask for it, or right for us to give it.
And a little company while dying really doesn't seem like such a big ask from one's fellow humans.
I agree with this comment, and this is one of the reasons why reading the entirety of what Clayton wrote was useful. The dynamic you just described would never have occurred to me otherwise.
Also, Clayton spends many chapters talking about society's unsympathetic attitudes towards the disabled and how people would view things differently if they really lived through the trauma of being paraplegic. Not trying to single out Anomie here but this is a clear example.
that's a very flippant way of dismissing the whole issue.
Sure, "what was the problem?" No problem at all. This is just the memoir of someone who wrote down his thoughts and feelings. You don't have to read it or care in any way. If society owed him nothing, then he certainly owed *you* nothing as well.
His ask was not that the people around him feel burdened by participating- his assumption was that nobody would help him involuntarily.
His ask of society was first and foremost for an option for people like him to off themselves without being stopped, so he could say goodbye without anyone getting arrested or sent to a mental hospital, so nobody would have to stumble on his rotting corpse, etc. And secondly for a less bloody & distressing option.
>>Refusing to provide opioids and instead providing “addiction prevention care” to the able-bodied is not discrimination against the legless.
>>Legalized assisted suicide sets up a double standard: some people get suicide prevention... This is blatant discrimination.
Heh. Is it wrong that I'd say both examples are, indeed, clear and blatant discrimination? But the other way around, against the able-bodied people.
A number of years ago I was riding my motorcycle, came around a corner, hit gravel, went down and slid across an intersection. I said to myself, "this is stupid, you've got kids". Never rode again.
Accidents are inevitable because whatever safety rules you keep somewhere in your head, when nothing goes wrong for awhile you will unconsciously stretch them. This is one of the reasons industrial safety is so hard.
One of the unwritten craft rules is "hold tool in right hand. Aim at left". You will.
OSHA has a hard job.
I do this bayesian pre- updating every time I'm tempted to buy a motorcycle. I enjoy riding a bicycle for exercise but on mostly-abandoned roads with shoulders wide enough that I just get off when I hear someone behind me.
Growing up my mother always told me, "The disabled are the one minority you can join at any time."
A Google search for that craft rule, in quotes, returns only one result - your post! I searched because it's meaning is unclear to me, even allowing for irony or humour, like the well-known first law of aeronautics "Take off is optional, landing is compulsory". What would the left aim be? To one's left hand? I don't get it.
I take it to mean that despite all intentions there's an overwhelming law of destiny which determines that at some point you'll hold a dangerous tool in one hand and inadvertently point it at the other hand (and ultimately end up stabbing yourself or cutting off a finger).
In other words, health and safety is hard because of the seemingly insurmountable tendency of human beings to inadvertently harm themselves.
I wonder if Clayton could have been saved by Buddhist meditation and knowledge of the existence of jhana states. A state where you feel sublime joy and meaningfulness in the mere act of your mind existing seems like it could provide a raison d’être to a person no matter how much their mind has been physically disconnected from sources of meaning outside the mind.
Maybe, but having read the review, I doubt it. Maybe jhana is a way to feel sublime joy, but it may not be a viable substitute for things like running, and in Clayton's case, it sounds like it wouldn't be.
Has anyone tried to teach paralyzed people how to meditate and seen any improvements?
He rejected the idea of not being pre-accident him. He would have refused to try it.
Toxic positivity is defined above
At my worse I would have wanted to punch you for the implication your making
He explicitly rejected the Buddhist option. To translate from Nietzschean to rationalist- "get your stinkin paws off my utility function you damn dirty ape!"
Probably not. The bliss from jhana is felt to a large degree in the body, which he had limited access to. Also, you need to be in an extremely calm, collected, and relaxed mindset to access them, which I don't think Clayton would have been able to achieve in his state.
Now I want four arms. Thanks, ACX.
Think of how much under-arm deodorant you'd get through, and how bad you would smell if you didn't use any! :-)
I find it quite easy to imagine having four arms, by simply pretending my first two fingers, or finger and thumb, on each hand are arms.
I've often thought that a good analogy for deafness would be living in a world where everyone communicates by telepathy. They still *could* talk but they never do because telepathy is easier. For everyone except you.
Also, everything in society is designed around the assumption of telepathy. For example, everyone goes to hang out in noisy bars and restaurants where it's impossible to hear anyone talk but it doesn't matter since they're just using telepathy instead... oh wait that's actually our world. Oops.
> maid debate
> ableism
> medical care failing
While these are all important debates theres something here that really should be a kick to the head to y`all rationalists here.
He's describing mental changes from losing his body; while the majority of this community thinks you should cut off your head to freeze it or put it in a robot soon^tm. **Your embodied** and not a computer in a meat machine. This should effect how you imagine ai, life extension, biology vs metal machines as solutions to problems.
When non-rationalists say they have a "gut feeling", consider that your immune system is using directed-evolution to maintain a bio-reactor of alien-dna called your stomach; if parts of your personality depend on continued communication between the parts of your body; what does that mean?
this is silly -- it's pretty well known that lack of nerve function can cause a sense of dissociation. it doesn't require it to be true that cognition is occurring outside the head.
What evidence would change your mind on the subject?
I don’t think that Monkyyy is arguing in favor of dualism, but instead is arguing that uploading your consciousness would be misery because the human mind is meant to be in a human body, so lacking a body would be a big problem.
Im arguing that "you" extends pass your brain, and includes your spine and gut.
I feel like this is a pointless criticism - the path to inventing brain uploading will necessarily involve figuring out what inputs and outputs the brain has, and either emulating them or working around their absence somehow.
Uploading someone only to discover that you have no way to turn their brain impulses into action would be like inventing Google and then realizing that you don't have an internet connection to run it - how would you get that far in your work without running into this problem?
Your assuming its possible *with the direction and theory on hand*. While hidden variable theory of quantum effects is mostly disbelieved, it was important to a) consider the possibility of more layers b) try to measure them c) maintain the thoery in the event they show up latter
If your consciousness isnt cleanly a product of just your brain, but includes your spine, oppsy about the brain freezing that cuts off the spine.
My impression of people who believe in cryogenics is that they mostly view it as one last dice roll to make before death. "Cut off your head to freeze it" is an accurate description of the process, but the people choosing it are either terminally ill or a couple of days/hours away from death, so I don't see why taking a moonshot gamble is an objectionable thing for them to do.
Do you think the people opting for cryogenics are healthy young people in the prime of their lives, or do you think cryogenics would be a fate worse than death, or are you trying to make some other point that I'm missing? I wouldn't do it myself because I reckon the odds are a lot worse than 0.1%, but I don't begrudge desperate dying people reaching for a last bit of hope.
>> kick to the head to y`all rationalists
> people who believe in cryogenics
Rationalists are a specif group; as you expand the circle to include partial believers, my assumtions about a specific world view being in place break down and Id need to start making positive claims that the *general public* finds unbelievable
> do you think cryogenics would be a fate worse than death
unlikely, your probably not evolved to process whats missing
> or are you trying to make some other point that I'm missing?
What I mean by embodiment? I believe the old world views are more correct then the morden ones on how "you" function: "gut feelings", full bodied emotions, your brain isnt going to be a slightly strange computer when we understand it.
For example theres been talk of depression advice on this topic, someone suggested meditating quite hard; the stories of bowel function are fairly exterme in his case; but to make a positive claim: "People who are depressed enough they havnt showered for 3 days, shouldnt be told to meditate to fix their depression. They will full gross on a *embodied* level."
I don't care what you mean by embodiment. I'm asking why you find it objectionable for someone who's dying to reach for cryogenics in the knowledge that it probably won't work. The fact that you also agree it probably won't work -- due to material damage, due to embodiment, due to the anger of God, or due to any other factor -- doesn't strike me as a good reason to be so angry about their choice.
Some of the cut off your head people think there will be good enough computer interfaces for brains or copies of brains to be happy. Others are betting on their brains being put into cloned bodies.
If cryonics pans out, it would involve some pretty serious progress. Either someone figures out how to run your wetware again, or you get uploaded and become an em.
In either case, some serious rewiring will be required. Anyone who can do that likely also can fix any dysphorias by providing your brain suitable IOs, be it sex organs, a prehensile tail or echo location.
I haven't heard of anyone advocating for dying earlier than necessary for cryonics, or for... somehow attempting mind uploading before anyone even has a sufficient scanner?
But I do know at least one of the two major cryonics orgs offers full-body preservation.
Unfortunately you did not check first. Kick to the head has been returned to sender.
Somehow there are a handful of people who have become disabled as adults, to at least the same level as Clayton. But they do seem to find their lives worth living.
The most famous that I know of is Stephen Hawking. Another is Joni Eareckson Tada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joni_Eareckson_Tada
I suppose Clayton would say that they've brainwashed themselves in a way that he was unwilling to do. But that doesn't seem to fully explain the difference to me.
I think Clayton would have been pleased they found their own way to be happy, and it would not have affected his own circumstances or decision at all.
It’s weird how little he tried to be accept and be happy with it.
Clayton opens his preface by addressing a Stephen Hawking quote, like so:
"Preface
“I try to lead as normal a life as possible, and not think about my condition,
or regret the things it prevents me from doing, which are not that many.”
–Stephen Hawking
Is anything in man so deep-rooted and prevalent as the drive to see things as they are not? What Professor Hawking says here is reasonable, up until the last five words. That’s where the sky cracks and falls. Relativity and quantum mechanics may both be mind-bending and baffle the understanding, but no less than when a world-famous mathematical and scientific genius who can do little more than twitch his cheek and move his eyes; who cannot feed, dress, wash, or care for himself in the most rudimentary way; who would, if abandoned next to a stockpile of food and water, starve and eventually die of dehydration where he was left, positioned as he was left, tells us that there are “not that many” things he cannot do."
And then much later:
"One more, since people like so much to point to Stephen Hawking when trying to enlighten me about the wonderful potential my life still holds. I have a wand that will instantly make you the world’s foremost expert in any subject you wish. In any five subjects! What do you like? Biology? Mathematics? Psychology? Take them all. Here’s the catch- you would have to spend the rest of your life like Stephen Hawking. At this point, I think about all he can do is twitch his cheek and move his eyes to communicate with his computer. And just for kicks, I’ll throw in $1,000,000,000 in cash to sweeten the deal. Alright, step right up! Wait a minute. Where’s the stampede of volunteers?
You insolent plebians! How dare you suggest for even a second that a billion dollars doesn’t span the difference between the value of your life and the “rich and rewarding” life of Stephen Hawking, one of the most renowned theoretical physicists of our time! Who the hell do you think you are? What have you done with your measly little life that makes you so high and mighty as to compare yourself to a man in whose mind galaxies collide and new worlds are formed? He postulated Hawking radiation from black holes- what have you postulated lately? And do you have any idea how many starving orphans you could save with that money? How many schools you could build, how much cancer research you could fund? You disgustingly selfish, cowardly, despicable wretch! I’d like to spit in your face!
As a side note, the example of Stephen Hawking is amusing too because what do you know about him? What about his day-to-day? I will err on the low side and say that I could probably at this moment write down more about his life and work, off the top of my head, than 99% of the population. But it’s also true that, by the standards of professional physicists, I don’t know jack-diddly-shit about Stephen Hawking’s work. It’s like my piano-playing. Average people thought I was pretty good, but trained pianists knew instantly that I sucked. People create happy little rainbows in their heads about Stephen Hawking, but they don’t know a goddamned thing about him, and they wouldn’t be him to save their lives. So often people seem to think they are helping me with the things they say, but really they should be thanking me for being so patient with their foolishness and, when it comes down to it, dishonesty."
My main reaction from reading this (the original essay, not the review) was that Clayton seems like...a bad person. Self-centered. Shallow. Oblivious to the possibility that he could ever learn from others. He doesn't think about other people except insofar as he imagines others' attitude to him. He considers the suicide decision "exhaustively" but he dismisses any wisdom other people might have to offer on the subject.
He doesn't like socializing IIRC because he is no longer taller than other people, he imagines people pitying him, and he can't engage in physical play. He doesn't see the point in dating if he can't impress women with his physical prowess, like running and jumping and carrying them.
It seems like, with the worst of luck, this injury happened to someone who invested a lot of ego into being physically strong, impressive, and tall. And he doesn't see that this ego investment is part of his problem. He thinks he can't relate to other people because his way of relating to other people was dependent on his body: intimidating men and impressing women.
Which is not to deny that he should be entitled to end his life if he chooses.
I guess what I'm saying is that he failed to convince me that suicide is the only option in his situation. I think that many people, although mourning the loss of the ability to run and walk and have sex etc., would be able to draw on or develop other interests and other ways of relating to people that were not dependent on having a tall, strong, active body. Actually, I feel like I'm talking about aging, although aging is probably easier to deal with because it's gradual.
>although aging is probably easier to deal with because it’s gradual.
Yes I think aging is probably easier than paralysis.
Until it finally kills you, I guess.
I’m no doctor, but I don’t think paraplegics outlive the average person who doesn’t suffer a severe spinal cord injury.
His decision was deeply rooted in his personal values and sense of self as an active, strong, physically engaged man. While he was aware of the possibility that he could change these values and sources of identity, this prospect filled him with horror rather than relief.
I think a better metaphor for many people here than the four arm case would be a classic Flowers for Algernon example. Most readers of this blog, I’m guessing, pride themselves on cognitive skills like their intelligence, memory, and knowledge. Imagine you suffered an injury such that you were now moderately cognitively disabled. You couldn’t really read anything remotely challenging or do math, you forgot most of the knowledge you’d acquired, and you found it very hard to manage simple day to day tasks.
It wouldn’t be much consolation, I suspect, to be told “ah but you can still play football or go trampolining or take long walks in nature”. If your personality stack is built around cognitive skills, then suffering catastrophic impairment to those same skills is likely to be an existential challenge for you. Suicide wouldn’t be the only answer, but it’d be an understandable one.
I think to the extent that Clayton’s decision is hard for many of us to understand, it’s because we’re not particularly invested in physical excellence and activity as a core pillar of our identity.
I'm still not sure how great an analogy that is for Clayton's situation because he seemed really focused on using his physical prowess to show off and impress people. I do get some enjoyment when people are impressed by my intelligence, but when someone is clearly more knowledgeable about some topic than me I don't get upset. It isn't hard for me to instead switch gears and enjoy learning from them.
That being said, I've occasionally thought about "Flowers for Algernon" scenarios and wondered to what extent cognition is something I love because I love the sheer act of doing it, or something I love because I'm good at it. If my mind was reduced to the mind of a five year old, that would be terrible, but would I still get some enjoyment from thinking about the kinds of things that five year olds find challenging? Five year old me was happy, would he still be if he knew this was a good as it was ever going to get?
You're focusing too narrowly on the ways in which the things he values differ from the ones you do, in what seems to me like cope to avoid thinking about experiencing what he did, mutatis mutandis. If you enjoy learning from others, suppose in addition to losing your intelligence, you also become unable to learn anything new.
My point wasn't that I enjoy learning from others and can enjoy that instead of learning by myself, it's that I don't care as much about status at Clayton seemed to. He seemed to not only enjoy physical activity for its own sake, but also enjoyed impressing and intimidating people with his physical prowess. For this reason, his loss of movement didn't deprive him of activities he enjoyed, it also caused his perception of his social status to change for the worse. My point was that losing my intellectual abilities would not cause me to feel a similar loss in social status, because I am fine in scenarios where I'm not the smartest or most knowledgeable guy in the room.
That is a good point about ego (many here agree that Clayton was probably insufferable).
But you're underestimating how painful it is to be unable to access mental faculties you used to have. There's a whole range of "mental motions" you get used to, and then suddenly they stop working. It's easy to talk about "learning from others without ego" etc, but you vastly underestimate the extent to which your intellectual habits are tailored and built up to whatever intelligence you happen to have. For example, it takes years to develop good note-taking habits, so if your memory suddenly gets worse, you won't be adapted to it. Likewise if you are used to see mathematical proofs with your mind's eye or whatever. Certain mental faculties disappearing take with them years of path-dependent learning and refinement.
What's not in this part of the discussion is Clayton's physical difficulties-- it wasn't just loss of ability.
I would also suggest blindness as a possible point of comparison for people who enjoy reading. (Though I suppose audio books aren't a TERRIBLE substitute, and AI text-to-speech is now pretty good and getting better.)
Also screenreaders and refreshable braille displays of course. Though I think braille would take forever to learn (or rather, develop proficiency).
I was taken aback by his antipathy towards theism and people who believe in god. I understand disagreement but he seems to genuinely hate others who have other views.
I haven't read the book (and probably won't), but I imagine someone told him something like "It's all part of God's plan." A broad hatred directed against everyone who says things like that is a perfectly normal response.
I became quadriplegic last year in a rock climbing accident, age 36. I was in the fittest state I'd ever been. I had a successful career as a political philosophy academic in London.
Everything Clayton says is correct. Except now go back through the review and imagine adding having no use of your hands on top of everything else described. Hence a life of complete and total dependency, as well as all the rest.
I'm in the process of applying to the Swiss clinic Dignitas as my life is without meaning, accordingly I want it to stop now. (I live in the UK where there is no assist dying by legal means)
In case anybody wants more horror and didn't get their fill from the review, my Substack charted the first year of attempting to live with the worst thing that can happen to a person.
Boy do I feel bad nitpicking given the circumstances, but this is ACX so…wouldn’t locked in syndrome be a worse thing that can happen to someone?
yeah I was exaggerating. I catch myself doing this and try not to: https://diaryofapunter.substack.com/p/suffering-and-kindness
Do you have any hope for new therapies that may be coming down the research pipeline?
The timescales for realistic change are not conducive to optimism
Some say we are a few years from the singularity at which point we either all die or all disease may be cured
Is there any reason to think they're right?
I’m not an expert in AI so I have no idea. Just throwing out there that there’s perhaps a chance of improvement eventually.
The arguments that recursive improvement is possible seem sound, but there's no clear reason it would take 2 years instead of 20.
I’m horribly sorry to hear that. Have you looked into cryonics? https://waitbutwhy.com/2016/03/cryonics.html
If it works, maybe you’d be reborn into a better future where treatments exist for your condition.
I thought something similar when I read "Two Arms and a Head", wondering whether anyone had ever talked to him about cryogenics, and whether he'd have been furious/despairing at having to continue existing in that state in order to afford the gamble.
Sorry to hear about your situation. I'm Swiss. Feel free to reach out if you need help with anything.
Just out of curiosity: how do you interact with a computer to read and write your comments?
Voice dictation technology with residual use of my right thumb
Thanks for indulging my curiosity.
Voice dictation has come a long way in the last few years. They can even mostly understand my mumbling and German accent these days.
I'm sorry to hear that.
I think quite a bit about a line from Aurelius's Meditations I read when I was a teenager:
"Consider the abyss of time past, the infinite future. Three days of life or three generations: what’s the difference?"
We have a tendency to focus so keenly on the amount of life available to us, and to what end? Beauty doesn't depend on duration. A poem of a few stanzas is not itself inferior to a novel.
I hope that you've had the opportunity to live well, and now that the time has come around, have the opportunity to die well also.
A lot of this resonated with me. The ME/CFS patient community are very straightforward with each other about the necessity of meaningfulness in life, the need for dignity, and the pull of suicide when nothing seems to help. ME/CFS can ruin your life and take everything away from you just as surely as quadriplegia - you may still have all of your limbs and technically be able to move them, but with a severe case, you can't move them anyway because you can't produce the energy, and in the worst cases you may not even be able to handle stimulation above a whisper or open the curtains to get some sun. Plenty of people in that situation want to die, and can't manage it. The range of severity goes very deep. It's a dangerous thing to have, especially psychologically.
On the other hand, there are plenty of patients in the community who have "tried everything", given up, and now dedicate their time to lurking on social media, explaining to new community members how screwed they are and how much the rest of their lives are going to suck. Every time someone comes in with a sliver of hope or something that helped them, they pile on and just disagree and claim that the person is lying, selling something, or just experiencing the placebo effect and are going to go back down the drain soon.
I disagree strongly with those people - which I have to admit is partially because I stumbled into some things that actually help my condition, which those folks very well might not have actually tried, and because they have decided that "nothing helps", they refuse to try them anymore. Those people tell me that all this is easy for me to say because my case is less severe than theirs - but part of the reason that that is true in the first place is because I let go of my vision for what my life would be like without this illness. I'm not saying that it was easy, at all. It was not. It was terrifying and heartbreaking. But a large part of any disability is the psychological torment that comes with it. Much like rich people who lose everything are more likely to commit suicide than people who have always been poor... readjusting one's expectations is hard but a necessary step towards being able to deal with your own situation. It's one that both they and Clayton would rather turn away from than take.
I believe strongly in the right of a patient (or even an able-bodied person) to end their lives if they truly want to. But to me, Clayton sounds a lot like one of those people... much more willing to wallow in his sense of loss than do the hard thing to try to find a new peace and become a new person with a new source of meaning. It wasn't until I started meditating seriously and accepted the flow of life for what it was that I started seeing improvement in my condition... calming down the sympathetic nervous system has a real function when it comes to autonomic functioning, and yet the people I'm talking about will pile on to anyone who suggests meditation and claim that saying that meditation helps is equivalent to calling the illness "all in their heads", trivializing it or - indeed - self-brainwashing. That opinion is extremely frustrating to encounter.
There is actually no reason that Clayton needed to be alone during all of this, no reason he couldn't get assistance with his basic needs and some of his dignity back. And some of that is certainly a psychological factor that is self-imposed. The feeling of "being a burden" certainly sucks. The feeling of not being able to do things that you used to do REALLY sucks, and watching people drift away is heartbreaking. But there is help, and hope, that lies beyond the threshold of self-acceptance and acceptance of the unfathomable.
Easy for me to say, maybe. And yet true.
As someone who has/had a "mild" case, pretty much agree with everything here. I haven't really sought out these communities, but from the few people I have encountered, there's definitely some potential for tension. IME chronic fatigue is in a weird spot because while I know (in my personal case) that the cause is physical and external, it can be managed internally/psychologically, up to a point. There's an implicit blame/threat towards others in that.
"but part of the reason that that is true in the first place is because I let go of my vision for what my life would be like without this illness."
You nailed it with this sentence. Oddly I think Clayton would agree with you. Not only was he incapable of making that mental switch, but he *decided* based on his own value system to declare himself incapable.
I definitely made the mistake of clicking the link near the end out of curiosity, scrolling down to the bottom to see how long it went, and then read the last several paragraphs. Big oof.
Near the end it talks about how people with only 2 arms don't think about how much life would be easier with 4 just because they don't have them, but I actually have thought about stuff like that. I considered whether life would be easier with wheels instead of legs (wheels are better for flat surfaces but legs are better for everything else) and whether the ability to grow and command prehensile tentacles would be useful (yes, although I would need enough power to withstand everyone who starts attacking me).
This book (review) captures my feelings about how society treats disabled people and those who seek to die so well, and I'm able-bodied. I've, for a long time, considered the right to die a fundamental right, and a right which cannot be conditioned on any third-party view of a life worth living.
But I do think the DAs have a point about race:
> The anti-ableist framework holds that a value judgment like “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits” is arbitrary bigotry on par with “having white skin is a good and desirable trait.”
>
> When disability activists argue that our society should reject ableism, what they are saying is that we should reject the notion that “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits.”
>
> Given what Clayton has told us of his life, that argument is cosmically, outlandishly insane.
I don't think the comparison is that insane, especially as you point out that what is "good and desirable" is fundamental subjective with the 4 arm aliens. Similarly, we could consider a white person living in southern America, before the civil war. If this person were to develop a disease that darkened their skin, to the point where they were considered black, I think this would be a disablement comparable to that of Clayton's. They would their ability to walk freely, most of their social circle, their job and future lifestyle. Their risk of suffering violence would be substantially higher, and if they were unlucky enough they might fall into slavery, and lose the ability to freely control their bowel movements.
The question then becomes if such a person is justified in killing themselves.
>the right to die
I'm not a fan of this kind of sleight of hand. People can already die by their own hand and to my knowledge no country is prosecuting the corpses of people who commit suicide. Advocates want to force public institutions to kill people with their consent. That's something entirely different.
That objection is discussed in the article under « Un-Assisted Suicide ». I will also point out, that advocates do not necessarily want public institutions to be forced to do it; right now it is illegal in most countries for a third party to offer assistance, and these people absolutely do get prosecuted.
Legalising the offering of such assistance, on a non-profit, altruistic basis, would be a massive step forward for such a right, even if the law does not compel anyone to offer such a service. As I understand it, that’s how it works in Switzerland, where charities like Dignitas offer the service and the situation is acceptable (and possibly better regulated than the maid being mentioned).
Wouldn't laws allowing third parties to offer assistance be recognizing a "right to kill" rather than a "right to die"? Because I imagine the reason such assistance is illegal is because it one citizen helping to kill another, which is murder, not suicide.
This is the argument used in most countries fwiw. I would disagree that it would recognise a right to kill if only assistance were legal. In Switzerland, for instance, the most the charities may do is furnish the means to the person. They are not authorised to actually kill the person. In a typical case, the person will be given a glass of poison which they, using their own hands, drink.
If the person is more incapacitated, a contraption might be constructed to administer the drug, provided the person can use their remaining faculties to confirm the demand (e.g. the drug is put in a cup with a straw that is brought to the person’s mouth, who can then suck on the drug).
Murder is unlawful killing. If, for some circumstance, the killing is lawful, it is not murder.
We already have a bunch of situations where killing people is lawful, and states already employ groups of people who have a right to kill others (specific others, in specific situations). The debate is whether and how to extend this; to killing people who want to be dead, rather than just people the state wants dead.
As far as I can tell, the reviewer never frames the issue as a "right to die", which is what I was objecting to in my response to you. That is, he doesn't conceal that what he wants is to oblige public institutions to assist people to off themselves.
As a related aside, that part was pretty bare as I said above. The entirety is:
>Clayton could not “just” ask for help putting his affairs in order. He could not “just” say goodbye to his loved ones. He could not “just” die peacefully without anyone trying to stop him. He could not “just” publish his memoir before his death—not if he wanted to avoid being committed.
As far as I can tell, Clayton could have "just" done all those things (EDIT: didn't he actually do just that?), and only the most incapacitated people can't unless they've become extremely incapacitated before expressing advance directives. The guy wrote a book but he couldn't write a will and letter to his loved ones? He couldn't get legal or (increasingly easy to get) illegal drugs to OD on? He couldn't buy helium?
I had the same thought. He did ”just” do all those things.
The reviewer never frames it as a right to die, but my reference isn’t coming out of nowhere. MAID is seen as a positive right to die, and is undeniably in the same scope of discussion.
Yes, Clayton could « just » do those things, but is it really a right if one needs to do all of those things in secret? because if it became known by others one were to kill themselves, the state’s monopoly on violence would be invoked to detain them and prevent them from acting on their right.
Had he failed, he would have likely lost his freedom and been detained in a mental hospital. This may not be prosecution and jailing, but it’s very close for what is the exercice of a « right ».
If the negative right were actually granted, as you claim, Clayton should’ve been able to publicly announce his suicide, arrange for the editing and publication of the book , and say goodbye to his friends and family (things which that section points out, he couldn’t).
I don’t think there is any reasonable argument that society currently grants such a negative right.
>Yes, Clayton could « just » do those things, but is it really a right if one needs to do all of those things in secret?
So ultimately the big benefit is that he can do it openly. I don't agree that being able to more sincerely call something "a true right" is worth the potentially significant unintended consequences. I'm starting to get the impression that what MAID advocates really want is society to clap along with people wanting to die.
I think the people arguing this line are trying to have their cake and eat it too.
By definition, a negative right implies a duty to not interfere with the execution of the right. Therefore, it is not a question of sincerity, but a question of the existence of the right.
What you’re trying to do is say « I don’t disagree that the right to die is a human right », and claim that society is not violating it constantly because « no country is prosecuting the corpses of people who commit suicide », as if that is the only criterion for a human right.
I think there are essentially two issues of any actual debate, namely (0) does the right exist? and (1) if it does, then under which circumstances may it be exercised? Trying to avoid engaging with (0) by putting powder in your eyes and pretending it is already recognised, despite the obvious restrictions is disingenuous.
Secondly, in Clayton’s case, the only benefit might’ve been openness, but even then, he could’ve experienced significant suffering during his death, he stabbed himself in his unfeeling stomach, but for all I know his last moments might’ve been him choking on blood). But Clayton was not the typical member of the population; he was smart and resourceful; many other people might attempt to exercice their right in this fashion, and suffer tremendously.
There’s also something to be said for him not being able to say goodbye. While I’m sure him family would prefer him alive, they’d probably also have preferred him to have said goodbye, which is another benefit of recognising the negative right.
Finally, what if Clayton were caught during the attempt? He would’ve been institutionalised, and probably prevented from exercicing the right you claim is already recognised by society.
Those are the other benefits of recognising the negative right.
>What you’re trying to do is say « I don’t disagree that the right to die is a human right »
Actually I don't care either way - I don't feel the impulse to frame everything under the sun as a right as seems to be ubiquitous these days. What I'm saying is that people can already kill themselves except in a tiny number of edge cases, and that there is little benefit to institutionalizing euthanasia to the degree that MAID advocates want in comparison to the risk of a great number of unintended consequences.
EDIT: I'll add to this since I have more time than expected. Where you and I differ is that you obviously care a lot more about rights than I do. So for you, it's not a real right unless it's as frictionless as possible. For me, it's enough that a great majority of people can do it if they really want to.
>Finally, what if Clayton were caught during the attempt? He would’ve been institutionalised, and probably prevented from exercicing the right you claim is already recognised by society.
This illustrates why I don't think the popular rights framing of just about every political issue is a good way of running society. Okay, let's say we never get in the way of anyone who wants to kill themselves. Hell, you're saying society should help them. I don't have the numbers, but I'd bet that the majority of people who try to kill themselves and are caught (whether it's during the attempt or after they fail ) don't try again and end up living at least satisfactory lives. In your ideal world, we let all these people die. Either get out of their way or help them, lest we infringe on their rights!
In my world, these people get treatment - sometimes forced - and usually live out their lives. The people who are really determined to end it can always try again. The rest get a second chance, their families aren't broken, their story has an a typical happy ending some decades down the line.
I might believe that argument if they didn't make it practically impossible even for the determined individual to legally get the drugs one might want for that. The ones they would actually want, not some kind of "will do" substitute.
Making suicide marginally more difficult is a good thing, not a bad thing.
Did you read my first sentence? That is very well in itself, if your position is "no euthanasia for anyone" then just say so.
But this particular thread is about people admitting that some people have a strong claim to euthanasia, and then saying "no need for MAiD, they can just kill themselves". That is already quite heartless given the fact that they will have to do it alone without telling their loved ones, but it's even more so when the same society proceeds to make it impossible to get their hands on the required chemicals.
Consider civil marriage: people can have sex, cohabit and make babies just fine without any official blessing.
Still, there are good reasons why governments around the world offer the marriages. People want legal recognition for their unions for all sorts of reasons. If your partner has an accident, without any legal recognition, you will be treated as an acquaintance in the hospital. Some states will offer tax incentives, etc. On the other hand, making this an official institution also allows the state to impose regulations, such as "you can't marry at age 12" or "you can't have other undisclosed marriages".
Also, you might want to read the WP article https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felo_de_se regarding the past treatment of suicides.
Marriage has existed for thousands of years throughout countless human societies and has evolved along with them. You don't need to set up entirely new institutions, laws, bureaucracies.
Second, married people are still alive after getting married. Notice how your examples of other reasons are benefits after the fact. There is no after when it comes to suicide, so obviously there's much less of a benefit in making it easier.
I don't generally like to use analogies to make a point because I might miss key differences that make it unlike the object of discussion. I've noticed that even people on ACX flub analogies more often than not. Why take the risk and use an analogy instead of directly making your arguments about the subject of discussion?
DIY suicide is very much harder than you think. Contrary to suggestions in this thread there are not foolproof drugs to be found on the internet. They are difficult to source and problematic to take and run the risk of partial success leaving you brain damaged and worse off than before
A great oddity is the Dr Death in Canada sending lethal packages all over the world. I obviously won't identify his stuff but it is entirely legal everywhere, the only drawback being the minimum order tends to be 100s of kilos.
I can go downtown right now with like $100 and buy more than enough fent to kill me. I have a good selection of bridges to jump off. Or if I don't want to take the 10 minutes trip, my apartment building is plenty tall enough. You get the idea.
Go downtown and buy fent is exactly what the tetraplegic and the elderly I'll cannot do. Furthermore it seems to not always work
"Approximately 30% of hospitalizations for opioid poisonings in Canada in 2016 were the result of self-inflicted harm, including suicide attempts"
https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/reports-publications/health-promotion-chronic-disease-prevention-canada-research-policy-practice/vol-38-no-9-2018/at-a-glance-opioid-toxicity-suicide-deaths-alberta-2000-2016.html
It's probably not great being hospitalized after a failed opioid suicide attempt.
As for jumping off things, it's not a great way to go. And try accessing these jumping off points in a wheelchair.
> No witness is required when the drugs are taken. There’s no way to ensure that it’s voluntary. If something goes wrong, there’s no way to help the person. A lethal dose of drugs may sit around the house for weeks or months.
You can even let your friends drink it!
https://www.jems.com/patient-care/death-with-dignity-when-the-medical-aid-in-dying-cocktail-gets-into-the-wrong-hands/
If anyone else was expecting the link to be about accidental consumption of euthanasia, it isn’t. In a Darwin Awards-eligible maneuver, a family member observed the user start drinking it and decided to try a sip himself.
Oh, I was misremembering exactly what had happened. Oops. Thanks.
Hey y’all watch this!
Is it possible that this is a literary hoax of sorts, or is the existence of this person verifiable?
You can find his obituary and there’s postings on a motorcycle forum of people who knew him including his mom
>This book is an infohazard that will permanently alter your view of paraplegia.
What if I've already seen Mar adentro / The Sea Inside? Although I wouldn't say that even it particularly changed my mind, that life can be not worth living has never seemed like a hard concept to fathom to me.
The fact that there are much worse fates than simply dying is the rationale for the use of continuous long-term torture as a form of punishment (rather than as a means to get information), for example in the Middle Ages in Europe (but also in other times & elsewhere).
It can be related to Machiavelli's dictum that it is better for a ruler to be feared than loved if he cannot be both. With the add-on that people will fear you more (& so be more hesitant about betraying you) if you get across that you can do considerably worse things than simply killing them, if you find out.
I would substitute, to the "you have to accept ableism" phrasing, simply "people's preferences are sacrosanct". The ableist position would be to say that not-being-paralyzed is *inherently* better, but you don't have to even come close to that position to say "if a specific person doesn't want to go on while paralyzed, that is Their Choice; if another is set on surviving at any cost even if they can only communicate in blinks, that is Their Choice as well; neither is more or less correct, both should be followed whole-heartedly".
I read this a few years back and don’t want to revisit it again.
I think the isolate loneliness of his situation really came through, his suffering in that way, if secondarily to the horror of a non-physical, non-ambulatory life, with which I greatly sympathize.
But in case this reading has upset anyone, or left them shaky, I want to suggest a different read, that perhaps endorses the Christian view of the matter. I’m not a Christian, just bringing it forward.
It should be free at the Texas Monthly website. It’s called “Still Life” by Skip Hollandsworth, who often had the outlandish crime or scandal beat, but really made something fine out of this family’s story. And it is a family story.
I want to try and say this in a nice way.
He decided that there was no piece of music, anywhere in the world, from any period in history, including the future, which would be worth staying alive, despite suffering, to listen to. None of his family relationships were worth it, either. Nothing anybody had ever painted was worth staying alive to see. He decided that he knew, with 100% confidence, that no religion or philosophy in the world, past, present or future, could possibly offer comfort worth staying alive for. No political change is worth fighting for, no injustice worth his suffering to try and fix. Nothing at all is worth it, or ever could be worth it.
He must have been suffering a lot. It's very sad. But I don't agree with his choice.
May you never suffer enough to change your mind.
Are you familiar with a type of suffering that would change your mind in that same way, or is this abstract cynicism?
Intimately.
Chesterton thought in much the same way (even before he became a Christian), as he wrote in his book "Orthodoxy":
"Not only is suicide a sin, it is the sin. It is the ultimate and absolute evil, the refusal to take an interest in existence; the refusal to take the oath of loyalty to life. The man who kills a man, kills a man. The man who kills himself, kills all men; as far as he is concerned he wipes out the world. His act is worse (symbolically considered) than any rape or dynamite outrage. For it destroys all buildings: it insults all women. The thief is satisfied with diamonds; but the suicide is not: that is his crime. He cannot be bribed, even by the blazing stones of the Celestial City. The thief compliments the things he steals, if not the owner of them. But the suicide insults everything on earth by not stealing it. He defiles every flower by refusing to live for its sake. There is not a tiny creature in the cosmos at whom his death is not a sneer. When a man hangs himself on a tree, the leaves might fall off in anger and the birds fly away in fury: for each has received a personal affront. "
This literary corner of the comments section seems like the right place to invoke Shakespeare's view on the topic:
To be, or not to be, that is the question:
Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer
The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune,
Or to take arms against a sea of troubles
And by opposing end them. To die—to sleep,
No more; and by a sleep to say we end
The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks
That flesh is heir to: 'tis a consummation
Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep;
To sleep, perchance to dream—ay, there's the rub:
For in that sleep of death what dreams may come,
When we have shuffled off this mortal coil,
Must give us pause—there's the respect
That makes calamity of so long life.
For who would bear the whips and scorns of time,
Th'oppressor's wrong, the proud man's contumely,
The pangs of dispriz'd love, the law's delay,
The insolence of office, and the spurns
That patient merit of th'unworthy takes,
When he himself might his quietus make
With a bare bodkin? Who would fardels bear,
To grunt and sweat under a weary life,
But that the dread of something after death,
The undiscovere'd country, from whose bourn
No traveller returns, puzzles the will,
And makes us rather bear those ills we have
Than fly to others that we know not of?
Thus conscience doth make cowards of us all,
And thus the native hue of resolution
Is sicklied o'er with the pale cast of thought,
And enterprises of great pith and moment
With this regard their currents turn awry
And lose the name of action.
Thanks.
I've been reading some Chesterton lately and it seems like he's one of those fellows who should still be read by smart open-minded individualists.
Something tells me rape victims wouldn't agree that suicide is worse than rape. Not discerning between suicide and omnicide seems to me an absolutely deranged and extremely solipsistic view. There is a world outside of you—and it matters if it continues to exist after you die.
He did say it was worse than rape “symbolically”: meaning he didn’t think it was worse than rape for all practical purposes.
EDIT: To add a little more context, this particular quote comes from a paragraph that begins this way: "Under the lengthening shadow of Ibsen, an argument arose whether it was not a very nice thing to murder one's self. Grave moderns told us that we must not even say 'poor fellow,' of a man who had blown his brains out, since he was an enviable person, and had only blown them out because of their exceptional excellence. Mr. William Archer even suggested that in the golden age there would be penny-in-the-slot machines, by which a man could kill himself for a penny. In all this I found myself utterly hostile to many who called themselves liberal and humane."
So the quote about suicide being (symbolically!) worse than rape or murder was not written in the context of whether suffering people should be allowed to kill themselves, but in the context of a larger societal debate about whether suicide is wrong at all, or is even admirable. To which Chesterton objects in the strongest terms.
Very eloquent, but I still basically disagree. As human beings we have much in common, but also huge variation, and that also applies to our most intimate sense or value. As much as I personally think that being fully conscious and not in overwhelming pain is all it takes to make life meaningful, I just have to put up a veil of ignorance and non-interference towards someone who doesn't feel that way, and who comes to the determination that their life has lost all possibility of hope and meaning.
Chesterton uses whatever arguments support the point he is trying to make at the moment. I am quite sure that in a different situation, he would argue that the universe happily continues to exist after you die, and that only a narcissist would believe otherwise.
There is a saying that "the cemeteries are full of people who thought themselves indispensable", so according to Chesterton, all these people were actually right!
As a thought experiment, imagine that there are two buttons, and you need to press one. (If you refuse, one button will be pressed randomly after one minute.) The first button kills *you* instantly. The second button kills you *and everyone else on the entire planet* one hour later. Adopting the perspective proposed by Chesterton, you should press the second one, because the first one means killing everyone now, so you are doing everyone a favor by giving them an extra hour.
Chesterton does not argue that the universe ceases to exist after you die, at any point. How could the birds fly off the hanging tree in fury if they have ceased to exist? His quote is clearly referring to how the suicide is destroying everything in the word for himself, not destroying it in literal fact.
I am not sure why "destroying something for myself" is such a bad thing if everyone including myself knows that nothing was actually destroyed.
If I decline an invitation to a party, I have just destroyed the party for myself. How much guilty should I feel?
Was always impressed how Chesterton mixes sharp and insightful prose with inane sophistry of this kind
Some ancient writers, certainly the Stoics, considered that ending one's life in a rational way was better than living in some situations - in fact it could even be considered a duty, depending on the context. It seems to me that the account in this book - well set out in this gripping review - might be just such a situation. Thanks for this account of an important case, man, and book.
Well, it could have been worse. He could have finished the trip and gone to law school.
(I’m joking, law school was a lot of fun for me. I even enjoy being a lawyer!)
<i>So the disabled are basically allowed to go around saying whatever on Earth they want. They acquire a kind of de facto moral infallibility because nobody is going to argue with them.</i>
At the risk of breaking this taboo, I'm going to say that Clayton Schwartz sounds like he really needs to get over himself. In fact, I'd say that his suffering is mostly self-inflicted. And yes, I realise that sounds like a crazy thing to say about a man who was paralysed from the nipples down by a motorcycle accident, but consider this section here:
<i>What happened to my body is frightful, but no less than what happens to the minds of many disabled people. We have to have some kind of integrity to our views of the world and reality, and the more the better. [...] So my unwillingness to adopt certain “attitudes” or whatever people call them is something like a desperate struggle to evade the clutches of madness.</i>
So he accepts that many disabled people accept their situation and come not to miss the abilities they had when they were able-bodied, but he refuses to do the same, because being happy with the life you actually have is "madness", whilst obsessing over things you don't have to the point that you commit suicide is, presumably, sane. This isn't a healthy attitude, and it isn't a sympathetic one; it's stubbon and pig-headed, and makes me think that those old-timey moralists who claimed that suicide is a result of pride might have had a point after all.
<i>Clayton had a particular amount of ire directed at one prominent anti-MAiD disability rights org: Not Dead Yet. </i>
The reviewer seems to pretty much accept Clayton's framing of NDY as the bad guys, but I'm surprised he (or she) didn't mention stories like this one:
"A veteran and former Paralympian told a parliamentary committee that a caseworker from the Veterans Affairs Canada (VAC) offered her medical assistance in dying (MAID), a week after the veterans affairs minister confirmed that at least four other veterans were offered the same thing.
Retired Cpl. Christine Gauthier, who has been trying to get a wheelchair ramp installed at her home for the past five years, testified on Thursday that a caseworker told her that they could give her assisted dying, even offering to supply the MAID equipment for her." https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/paralympian-trying-to-get-wheelchair-ramp-says-veterans-affairs-employee-offered-her-assisted-dying-1.6179325
Or this one:
"A new Health Canada report says the number of medically assisted deaths in 2022 was more than 30 per cent higher than the year prior.
Medically assisted deaths constituted 4.1 per cent of all deaths in Canada last year, said the report, which was published on Tuesday." https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/maid-canada-report-2022-1.7009704
I mean, I'm sure that some NDY activists think of MAID as a kind of discrimination because they literally cannot imagine how having to spend the rest of your life fingering faecal matter out of your own anus might be considered a bad thing. But I suspect that a lot of them think of it as a kind of discrimination because they're worried that, once MAID is legalised, it won't stay confined to people who've freely and carefully weighed up the pros and cons and come to an uncoerced decision, but will result in an expectation that disabled people will kill themselves, which is both bad in itself (just imagine you've been in an accident and now your friends and family are all insinuating that you maybe you should kill yourself), and also likely to negatively impact the resources available for disabled people who don't want to commit suicide ("Look, we've already offered her MAiD, if she chooses not to accept it that's fair enough but I don't see why we should have to pay for her choice"). IDK, I'm guessing the reviewer doesn't agree with these concerns, but I've seen them raised often enough that not mentioning them at all seems like a pretty big omission.
Seems like the disabled people are screwed either way.
If we say that their lives are worth less, and suicide should be a valid option... then there is no reason for the taxpayers to spend money on inventing a cure.
But if we say that their lives are perfectly okay... then there is no reason for the taxpayers to spend money on inventing a cure.
Strongly second this
Well, it was self-inflicted bc he got on a motorcycle in the first place, too. Not that he deserved it, of course, but paraplegia is a predictable consequence of a motorcycle accident.
Holy f**ing f***.
My condolences to Clayton. And hats off to you, sir/ma’am who reviewed the book.
This is why euthanasia should be legal!
A collection of points where I don't jive with the review. It's an alright piece of advocacy, if not a great review.
I take umbrage with the wording of:
"How much would you have to lose before your life stops being worth living?"
Tone is a difficult thing to convey in text, and a sentence like this needs it. Doubly so, I think, in a piece that is some percent advocacy.
"Reject[ing] the notion that 'being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits" isn't a dichotomy despite a representation otherwise. It's an absolutist take on what separates ableism and anti-ableism. Again, umbrage taken with wording. I do think the Ableism section falls flat and needs a lot of help, but that's a larger complaint that would take an article-length post to properly go over.
"His pre-injury self strikes me as a serious dudebro" I took the same idea from the excerpts you've shared. Not who I would have pegged for a philosophy student.
The dudebro philosophy student was definitely an archetype IME, especially in undergrad.
“being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits”
Is that what they’re saying, though? Or are they saying that those things aren’t *necessary* for a desirable life?
> When disability activists argue that our society should reject ableism, what they are saying is that we should reject the notion that “being able to walk, have sex, and control one’s bowel movements are good and desirable traits.”
That seems like a very extreme distortion of the concept. I think the concept of "ableism" is specifically about prejudice against disabled people. That is, premature or biased judgment. Not _any_ assessment, no matter how accurate and individualized.
People treat the diminished of capacity caused by disability as even more severe, broad, and inherent (as opposed to contingent on the interaction between the particular form of an individual's capacities and social / built structures) than it is. People also react to disability with fear, disgust, and revulsion (case in point here, Clayton's circumstances after the accident certainly seem like they were terrifying, gross, and painful), but that negative sentiment can bias people's reaction to disabled people. There's also some equivocation between what's good and what's merely typical.
> When lifelong disabled activists insist that there is nothing “inferior” about being disabled, they mean it. When they declare that patients are merely being prejudiced when they choose to die rather than live while disabled, they mean it. They are not in denial. Their brains literally cannot fathom what they are missing.
This really seems to be giving short shrift to both the idea of human adaptability and also disabled people's (or specifically activists'?) ability to understand the perspective of people in situations different from their own. (Also, I'm wondering if "lifelong disabled" is even an accurate characterization of a typical supporter / member / leader of an organization like NDY.)
I don't know if this is missing from the book or just not highlighted in the review, but did Clayton attempt to get psychological treatment after his injury? The bit about "small circle of other recently paralyzed friends" makes me think of a support group, but what about people sharing his circumstance but with their injury _less_ recently? It seems (at least, the way it's presented in this review) like Clayton was philosophically opposed to the sort of adaptability that would lead him to change his judgment about his (by his present judgment) intolerable circumstances. Since his judgment is rational, therefore changing that judgment would be irrational. He is, in a particular technical sense, "incorrigible". It seems like a perspective with... some significant limitations, to say the least.
I do think people should have control over the end of their lives, and I definitely see the downsides of the "fight always, no matter the cost" attitude. But I think the perspective reflected in this review is a bit too dismissive of concerns that course of action might wind up a bit _too_ greased, that the work of (or even concept of) adaptation and the physical/logistical work to care for the disabled could be undervalued.
Yes, I wondered about that. Did Clayton have any assistance/support from friends/family members? I do wonder if they featured in the narrative, and to what extent. Although maybe I missed that.
I had the same thought when the review talked about having to clean up soiled bedclothes from a wheelchair. Granted that's pretty gross, but doesn't he have any friends or family who can pop round to help him with tasks that are hard to do whilst two-thirds paralysed? Or if they can't, could his family not help him pay for somebody to come round for 30 mins a day to make the bed etc.?
"It seems (at least, the way it's presented in this review) like Clayton was philosophically opposed to the sort of adaptability that would lead him to change his judgment about his (by his present judgment) intolerable circumstances"
I read the whole book and can confirm that this reading is accurate. In some ways it seems like he lived his life & developed his personality up until the point of his injury in a way that was particularly maladaptive for coping with it. Which isn't his "fault", it's just heartbreaking.
Man, I don’t know. The libertarian in me wants to let this guy do what he thinks is best, but the father in me, the son in me, the brother in me, can’t help but feel that what he needed wasn’t death, but a support system that would help him find new ways to give his life meaning.
At one point you suggest that maybe Clayton was shallow. I get the distinct impression you don’t want to judge him for that. I don’t want to either, for the most part. But maybe this story illustrates why we should?
I guess a response might be that our judgement shouldn’t stand in the way of his decision. Again, the libertarian in me agrees with that, but I worry that while that may be defensible at an individual level, it will be very maladaptive at the societal level.
Like I said, I don’t know. But I do think we need to tread carefully.
Two arms and a head is one of few books where trigger warnings are fully warranted. It's the most intense book I've ever read.
I agree that Clayton was an insufferable dudebro. His self-esteem and joy in life seemed to come pretty much from being super fit and better than everyone else. Still, I emphasized deeply with his situation, even though I found his suffering... kind of shallow? You can find joy and meaning in pretty much every situation, and it seems to me that Clayton misses this and chooses to focus on the exact life that was ripped from him. Of course you need to have independence and dignity, which you can lose real quick. I was / still am going through health issues that are seriously debilitating, and it is absolutely true that when your body doesn't function properly, it saps you of your vitality, and over time even of your identity. Because of that, I want to withhold judgement and accept that Clayton's suffering was really that bad, even though the details are rather alien to me.
Speaking of aliens, the weakest section of the review was that of the four-armed people. The lost skills of the hypothetical double amputee still leave him at an insanely high level of functioning. Gardening, walks on the beach, providing for himself and living for himself... autonomy and dignity are still available to him. I would think that losing two of four arms is about as bad as a human losing half the fingers of one hand. That sucks a lot, but would leave you clearly *functional* in all aspects of life.
Another theme that comes up in the book but wasn't touched in the review: disabled people are constantly under pressure to downplay their problems, from the able people around them. The idea that random circumstance can fuck you up permanently is quite disturbing, especially to young people whose first encounter with the concept is you, a living avatar embodying their fear. So they dump their denial onto you in various ways, "helping" you to see things more positively and such.
I think the point of the four-armed section was to help able-bodied people to see why it is that lifelong paraplegics struggle to empathize with what Clayton was going through.
Your response actually speaks to this exact point: as lifelong two-armers, we don’t know what it’s like to have four arms, so we focus on everything the newly two-armed person still can do. But, to the newly two-armed person, they know what it’s like to have four arms, so they are going to feel very differently about their two-armed status than we are about ours.
The point is to help us see why lifelong paraplegics and newly disabled paraplegics might feel very differently about the same objective condition: because it’s hard to grieve the loss of something you never had in the first place. Or, to paraphrase Clayton, when you’ve lived your whole life as a clam, it can be hard to see why an eagle would rather die than become a clam.
I’m not defending Clayton’s feelings absolutely—I like to think (though I really don’t know)—that I’d be more psychologically resilient to the loss of my able-bodied status than he was. But, no matter how resilient I would be, it’s hard for me to imagine that I’d accept the loss as well as a lifelong paraplegic would accept their condition.
I think there’s an important psychological truth here: how we feel about something is largely an effect of what we’re comparing it to. So it’s reasonable to expect that lifelong paraplegics and newly disabled paraplegics are going to feel somewhat differently about the same objective conditions.
Yes, I understand that PoV, and I am explicitly rejecting it. By far the most important aspects are measured in absolute terms. Always mediated by the society surrounding us, of course. Are you able to take care of yourself and live an independent life as is expected of an adult? Are you able to work? Are you able to use tools / vehicles / infrastructure provided by your society? The degree of disability matters quite a lot here! Sure, sitting in your own shit sucks because it's humiliating. But mostly, it sucks because it smells! because it won't come out of the fucking couch fabric! There's ground truth to be had here! Otherwise we end up with euphemisms like "differently abled" and the toxic postmodern thought surrounding it.
> “By far the most important aspects are measured in absolute terms. “
I think that flies in the face of quite a lot of good, empiric psychological research. On average, a lower-class person moving to a middle-class status, for example, is going to feel much happier with their life than a middle-class person remaining in a middle-class status.
One study I can remember measured how losing a job affected one’s wellbeing. In cities where unemployment was high, losing one’s job affected the subjects’ self-reported wellbeing slightly, whereas in cities where unemployment was low, losing one’s job was a lot more negatively impactful to one’s self-reported wellbeing.
That latter study might actually be a good way to merge our points, actually: almost no one likes losing their job (i.e. the loss of a job is almost absolutely negative) but in a context in which unemployment is high, it’s actually less psychologically impactful (due to comparison effects) than in a context in which unemployment is low (again, due to comparison effects).
I can dig up that study if you want to see the citation. My only point is that comparison effects are real and strong and worth empathizing with and acknowledging, in my opinion. … And who knows? If someone was able to empathize with Clayton’s plight, maybe that could have helped him. But that would have required someone to acknowledge the pain he was experiencing, a pain that was pretty clearly created, in large part, by comparison effects.
Hmmm... ok maybe I'm not expressing myself clearly. Comparison effects are real. I kind of agree with all you're saying here. But still, there's a layer *beyond* that, one of absolute, physical reality which must be acknowledged in turn. I understand what the four-armed alien thought experiment is gesturing at, but it's implicitly claiming that comparison effects are all there is, which is not just false, but perniciously so.
I agree that there’s a layer of physical reality beyond the psychological. Absolute? I don’t know. Maybe. I’m not big on absolutes. But without digressing too hard into ontology, sure, I agree that there’s a layer of physical reality beyond the psychological.
Am I claiming that comparison effects are all there is? No, there are LOTS of other psychological effects that are all acting and interacting at the same time and which act in concert to produce any given psychological outcome. All of these psychological effects act and interact on sensory data received (and interpreted) from our physical reality, but given how many psychological effects are acting and interacting simultaneously upon that sense data, how much sway does any given sense data have upon any given psychological outcome?
Probably a little, but not that much? That would be my prior, anyway.
To me, it sounds like we agree that there’s a mind-independent physical reality. But your use of the word “absolute” to me sounds like you’re saying that this mind-independent physical reality psychologically affects everyone (“absolutely”) the same way, and I disagree with that strongly.
Given how complex any given brain is (10 billion neurons with 10,000 connections each) and given how many brains there are, it would be incredibly striking if there was (“absolutely”) not at least a little variation along almost all dimensions that have to do with the sensing and processing of data gleaned from our physical reality.
I agree, in other words, in the existence of a mind-independent physical reality, and I’m open to the idea that there is some kind of sense data gleaned from the physical world that affects all 8 or so billions human brains on this planet the exact same way, but I have a very, very strong prior against that, so I need to see some strong evidence if I’m going to update in the opposite direction.
>But, to the newly two-armed person, they know what it’s like to have four arms, so they are going to feel very differently about their two-armed status than we are about ours.<
To someone used to regularly eating caviar, moving somewhere that doesn't have caviar is going to be a traumatic experience. Therefore we should all support the former caviar eater in their decision to commit suicide.
It's a bad metaphor, is the point. Even moreso because every paraplegic I know was injured in an accident as an adult and knows exactly what it was like to have a working body. To claim otherwise is to reject reality in service of your depression.
If you absolutely adore caviar, so much so that you eat it all the time and take its availability for granted, moving somewhere that doesn’t have caviar will clearly affect your wellbeing.
Will its loss affect you to the same extent as losing control and feeling in 2/3rds of your body? No, probably not, but it will have a palpable effect.
Also, at no point did I even imply that I supported Clayton’s decision to commit suicide. I’m honestly not sure how I feel about that; I’m still trying to make up my mind. (On the one hand, comparison effects diminish over time due to habituation—some of the quoted and paraphrased sections in the review relating to the diminishing of Clayton’s memories of being able-bodied suggested that something like that was happening—but this habituation process doesn’t necessarily progress in absolute terms, so if the pain of his loss endured for quite a long time … I’m not sure what I’d conclude.) But I empathize both with the grief he felt from the loss (due to the comparison effects he was clearly suffering from) and the loneliness he felt in not being able to express or receive empathy from others in similar positions.
I appreciate that you have experience with people who were a lot more resilient to the loss of their able-bodied status than Clayton was; I’m genuinely glad they were more resilient than he was. But there are a lot of reasons why one might be more resilient to this particularly kind of loss than others. An Olympic athlete will probably grieve the loss of their able-bodied status more than someone who doesn’t particularly prize physical fitness/ ability. I’m not saying that this at all applies to the people you know; I’m just pointing out that comparison effects are tricky and depend, in large part, upon the psychological salience of the particular factors involved in the objective change.
Perhaps more importantly, I’d like to better understand why the people you know were more resilient to their loss than Clayton was. I, personally, am relatively resilient to the grief of losing loved ones, and I know some of the literature about that, and it’s relatively consistent with my experience, and I’m happy to say that I’ve been able to help others with their grief by sharing my experience and what I know with them. Helping them, however, didn’t involve blaming them for not being as resilient as me; it involved understanding the factors that led to my resilience, empathizing with their pain, and gently trying to encourage an increase in those resilience-related factors. Part of this is involves accepting reality, true, but the path to this acceptance is a difficult one … because reality really sucks sometimes.
>Perhaps more importantly, I’d like to better understand why the people you know were more resilient to their loss than Clayton was.<
Because they focused on their new life instead of their old one. They accepted the old version of them (the one that could run a 5-minute mile) was dead, and set out to see what the new one was capable of. Clayton didn't; he was obsessed with what he'd lost, and even hated the idea of not being obsessed with what he'd lost. He decided he'd rather die than adapt. That attitude will kill you no matter how healthy you are; you can't stop the world turning.
I might link this over to the guy; he's been talking about writing a book for like, forty years, and pointing out a book like this might be the push.
“Adapt or die” is an expression I put a lot of stock into, so I think we’re in agreement there. But I’ve also seen how hard, time-consuming, energy-consuming, and painful adaptation can be—and I’ve never had to adapt to anything as significant as what Clayton went through.
… so your advice to Clayton would have been to simply focus on his new life instead of his old one, to accept that the old version was dead, and to see what the new version was capable of.
I wonder what, then, you would say to him if he gave that an honest shot and then returned to you and said the following: “I try focusing on my new life instead of my old one, but every time I have to stick my finger in my ass in order to defecate I am reminded of when I had control of my bowels. I can’t control those memories flooding back, they just arrive, entirely unbidden. I tried to accept that the old version of me was dead, and I do accept that; I’m not delusional or living in a fantasy. But I can’t control the profound grief I feel over his loss. The grief just arrives, unbidden, and I tell myself, ‘Accept it! He’s dead!’ And that doesn’t help. I am trying to see what this new me is capable of, but every time I try to do something, I can’t help but to imagine how much easier it would be to do it if I was still able-bodied; I tell myself not to imagine these things, but the imaginings simply occur every time I try to do something. I can’t control them.”
Seriously, what would you say to him if he gave your advice an honest shot and this was the result?
My point isn’t that your thoughts about your friend’s resilience are bad; I think they’re quite good, actually. My point is that I think that you are describing the resilience itself and not the factors that lead to it. It’s the illusion of explanatory depth, if you ask me. And if you don’t know what you’d say to Clayton if he couldn’t magically focus on the right things or achieve acceptance over the death of his prior self, then you probably need to feel more uncertainty about why some people are resilient to the loss of their able-bodied status and others are not.
Sure, i'll give it a shot.
> But I can’t control the profound grief I feel over his loss.
"Grief takes time. The more grief, the more time. Someone linked the Ball In A Box analogy a while back. https://psychcentral.com/blog/coping-with-grief-ball-and-box-analogy#grief-as-a-shrinking-ball"
>but every time I try to do something, I can’t help but to imagine how much easier it would be to do it if I was still able-bodied
"Do things you never tried before. Did you ever paint before, or play harmonica, or write a book? You don't know how long it would take the old you to pick those up.
And record how long it takes to do old mundane things now. How long did it take to wash dishes today? How long did it take two weeks ago? Make sure you have comparison points from after the accident that you can build from."
>I tell myself not to imagine these things, but the imaginings simply occur every time I try to do something. I can’t control them.”<
From what he wrote, he was starting to. He said he was losing the ability to remember things like running. But instead of viewing it as improvement, he viewed as the death of his old self. He didn't want to control them. He wanted to lose himself in them. And he did.
>every time I have to stick my finger in my ass in order to defecate I am reminded of when I had control of my bowels.<
"How many fingers could you handle then?"
Yeah, again, I actually like and agree with almost everything that you’re saying here. (At least in the abstract.) The last line is especially funny, and building comparison points is a great idea.
But I still think that you’re severely overestimating how easy it would be for someone like Clayton to adapt to his new condition. Even more so, as someone who has experience with people in my life who have suffered from major depression and prolonged grief syndrome for many, many years, I can say with some certainty that behavioral changes and time are good but that conditions like that can be surprisingly stubborn.
So my question is this: let’s say you institutionalize Clayton for his suicidal plans, and let’s say that his grief and pain, despite your and his best efforts, never change. Is there any point in time at which you would endorse his desire to end his life?
My objection is far more to the reviewer than to Clayton himself; I think Clayton made the wrong choice, but I think the review is aggrandizing that choice.
Religion enters in here, in that I don't believe in "a fate worse than death". If I'm endorsing suicide, it's at the very end, just like with pets. There was a woman who was blind and demented for three years, with a typical memory of about five seconds; but for the last three months she couldn't get out of bed anymore and had to wear diapers. I could perhaps be convinced about the last three months.
But I don't think I much agree with institutionalizing people at all unless they're a threat to others. That feels like a good way to MAKE people a threat to others, in order to avoid being institutionalized.
I think that the reviewer is empathizing with Clayton’s pain and (to bring it back to the four-armed metaphor) trying to help us both to empathize with his pain and to recognize some of the problems with the discourse of disability activists that doesn’t distinguish between lifelong disability (which would assumedly be subject to fewer comparison effects and, therefore, greater levels of acceptance) and newly disabled people (who would assumedly be subject to greater levels of comparison effects and, therefore, more grief and psychological pain).
I don’t see the reviewer as aggrandizing Clayton’s choice so much as recognizing the unique pain and loneliness that Clayton was subject to and respecting that, for some people in some unique situations with some unique sets of psychological factors at play, it may be rational to choose death (the absence of experience) over a life lived with an extremely low quality of subjectively perceived experience.
Personally, I would want to live in a world in which good-faith and relatively exhaustive efforts are made to improve the quality of one’s subjectively perceived experienced BEFORE one is allowed to commit suicide, but I’d also want MAiD to be available to those are extremely unhappy, desire to end their suffering, and prove resistant to those good-faith and relatively exhaustive efforts.
As far as religion is concerned, I’m an atheist and a physicalist, so I believe that death is the absence of experience, and given extreme hardship and very low levels of subjectively perceived wellbeing, I’m open to the idea that death might be preferable to profound and seemingly intractable suffering.
Personally, I think that someone like Clayton who wants MAiD might actually be persuaded to make more efforts to improve their psychological experience if they knew that a decision to accept MAiD would be respected, so long as they made a good-faith effort to first improve the quality of their experience, under the guidance of mental-health professionals.
Imagine two scenarios: (1) Clayton is suffering and knows that his desire to commit suicide with some dignity will be disrespected by the entire mental-health establishment. Does he reach out to them and express his desire? No, probably not. (2) Clayton is suffering and knows that his desire to commit suicide with dignity will be respected, so long as he first undergoes some attempts to make some changes that may convince him that life if still worth living. Does he reach out to them? Maybe not—maybe the required attempts are still something he wants to avoid, but I think that this scenario increases the chances that he reaches out and creates the possibility that he will receive the help and support he needs.
I think that, from the POV of someone like Clayton, having a policy like MAiD available to him, even if he first has to try to make some changes, would offer the comfort of knowing that, either way, his suffering will end. Without that possibility, Clayton rationally worries that he will be institutionalized and/or monitored and prevented from committing suicide, making it quite possible that his suffering will last as long as his life on this earth. And if I was suffering as much as Clayton was (for whatever reason), that is a possibility I’d also want to avoid.
I guess that, where I come down, is that I’d like MAiD to genuinely be like the Democrats’ old line on abortion: safe, legal, and rare. That it be available, but only after all other reasonable paths to the improvement of one’s subjectively experienced wellbeing have been exhausted.
I feel like you're imagining going from foir-armed to two-armed in our current society, which was built by and for two-armed people. But that's not what disability is. Losing two arms in a society built for four-armed people would probably suck a lot more: the devices and furniture you'd use daily would be made for four-armed use, there'd be a bunch of jobs that assumed four arms. You'd lose a lot of functionality. (And similarly, a hypothetical society with only two-arms-and-a-head people would probably design furniture and normalize bathroom practices that are compatible with only having two arms and a head).
"The main impediments to finding a cure are the same ones that plague any other field of medical research: lack of funding and unreasonable requirements from regulators. The main problems at this point in time appear to be bureaucratic rather than strictly biological. " Simply not true. Biology is hard. More funding is always great, but to blame lack of progress on regulators makes no sense here. There is not an enormous body of biology that, if but regulators got out of the way, could revolutionize adult human health. It's just a super tough field.
Yup, there's a strong strain of "If only we got the bureaucrats out of the way we'd have the cure for everything" in this community, and it just isn't supported by facts.
In fact the recent attempts by the FDA to do exactly this led to more or less directly to the lecanemab and donanemab debacles.
"Some bureaucrats made a drug available to over a million dying people before they were sure it worked" is not the debacle you seem to think. To me it sounds like somebody made rational decisions about how to kill the fewest people, with predictable outcomes.
If you've never missed an ineffective drug, you're probably spending too much time in Phase III.
> There is not an enormous body of biology that, if but regulators got out of the way, could revolutionize adult human health.
Why do you think you know that?
because I'm familiar with how hard it is to translate lab science -> humans. many filters: does it replicate in mice? what about not inbred mice? can other labs do this or is this something that only works in one lab? Ok, can it then translate to other model organisms? etc.
regulators can certainly improve, but that looks more like better pay / more of them; thoughtful pathways for drugs/therapeutics for especially deadly diseases (this is already a thing - eg, Accelerated Approval); making it easier/cheaper to run trials, easier to recruit patients, etc.
> more of them;
You think MORE regulators would be an improvement?
Okay, I suppose it's conceivable that the status quo is locally weird enough that moving in the wrong direction would be an improvement (though I don't buy it). The real question is whether you think more regulators would be an improvement over complete abolition of all regulatory agencies. To me, the answer is clearly no.
There are indeed many "filters" to getting drugs approved for human testing, but you imagine improvement in regulation as getting through them faster instead of getting rid of them altogether.
Why do you think “better pay / more of them” won’t improve the pass-through rate? In many agencies (I’m looking at you, asylum system) the key obstacle to faster processing is simple lack of manpower.
For example, USPTO has sped up processing quite a bit recently by… drum roll… hiring more patent examiners.
I've heard this is a big problem in insurance too, where in some states it's basically impossible to offer insurance because the state doesn't have anyone left to approve the applications.
Unsaid morbid meta here is Clayton’s (correct) estimation he could artifice his own death to produce an enduring prose work that even decade(s) later would occasion rapt notice and discussion from many thousands of readers, up to and including public intellectuals of the highest station. A longshot if there ever was one*. But here we are.
Plausible—likely, even—this wasn’t ultimately determinative for him. ‘Extreme physical risk taker with literary/intellectual ambitions (aspirations? pretensions?)’ is the shape of the hole in the firmament someone for whom it was would make in the act of leaving it, though.
Upshot? Not sure. Other than that Clayton seems someone who’d derive comparatively greater satisfaction from being the subject of this comments section than the average bear.
[alt text: What if the real basilisk was the online commenters we imagined into being along the way?]
*=Suicide epistles is a brutally hard genre to break into as a first-time author. Maybe the hardest. Maudlin + saturated marketplace. Compare murder manifestos where the standard of excellence is a millennial nepo baby who never even graduated college or had sex
This book review seems well timed relative to https://www.astralcodexten.com/p/matt-yglesias-considered-as-the-nietzschean. It appears that Clayton and perhaps Book Reviewer have a "master morality" view of the world. Whereas I suspect at least some of the other paraplegics who get on with their life have something more like Scott's "melodies" such as: "I want to be happy so I can be strong. I want to be strong so I can be helpful. I want to be helpful because it makes me happy."
As such, while I found the descriptions of "brainwashing" insightful, I think Book Reviewer is too quick to agree that brainwashing is the only way newly injured paraplegics cope in general. Phrased differently I think many people ex-ante would rather live as a paraplegic than die. When such people become paralyzed I don't think they are "brainwashing" themselves but rather processing major loss and dealing with substantial day to day struggles similar to various other very tragic events Book Reviewer listed.
That said the description of: "desperate struggle to evade the clutches of madness" resonated with me a lot. If I choose to read the book it would be to get a better sense of the degree to which people around Clayton were gaslighting him verses Clayton being obstinate to why someone like Stephen Hawking (who was not disabled until adulthood despite possible insinuations otherwise) might actually enjoy his life without having been brainwashed.
I definitely have friends who consider any attempts to change thought patterns to more positively contextualize their experiences (like CBT) as "brainwashing" or "gaslighting" and I assume they'll be miserable their whole lives as a result.
>It appears that Clayton and perhaps Book Reviewer have a "master morality" view of the world.
I would think the opposite. Clayton was undone by his belief that he had to measure up to his old self that no longer existed in order for life to be worth living.
My handy example for what counts as a disability would be a society of winged people. Doors could be at any height because most people can fly up to them. If you don't have functional wings, ordinary life becomes very difficult.
Good example. Another would be if almost everyone could see ultra-violet. Then the UV colour blind would have a hard time driving if traffic lights showed UV-A for stop and UV-B for go!
There was a time when I didn't have a drivers license, and therefore couldn't drive.
It was sometimes annoying but I certainly was not meaningfully "disabled".
I don't know about you, but I was born with my driver's license.
I've often thought that a good analogy for deafness would be living in a world where everyone communicates by telepathy. They still *could* talk but they never do because telepathy is easier. For everyone except you.
Also, everything in society is designed around the assumption of telepathy. For example, everyone goes to hang out in noisy bars and restaurants where it's impossible to hear anyone talk but it doesn't matter since they're just using telepathy instead... oh wait that's actually our world. Oops.
I wonder if Clayton, once in his disabled state, considered he could maybe find a new purpose as a guinea pig for researchers aiming to improve the quality of life for others in the same situation as him, or who would be in future.
For a start, wouldn't it be helpful to develop sensors for detecting bladder fullness or internal bowel motions which would indicate that an imminent visit to the loo was in order, and some kind of water sluicing device for emptying the said bowels without having to resort to the "hands-on" approach!
I did wonder: why didn’t he have a colostomy? Were there medical reasons that made it impossible? It still would have been inconvenient and gross, but less repulsive than the, uh, as you put it, hands-on approach.
That would help a great deal with diarrhea, but what about constipation?
First off, there are sticks / tools to assist — no need to finger yourself unless you’re into it.
Second, most states will send care workers to do it for you.
Or, if you don't want to use a tool, at least a latex glove or something?
In a similar vein -- He complains about needing to use his arms to prop himself up in his wheelchair, but you can get support straps for that sort of thing, e.g.: https://www.amazon.com/Wheelchair-Support-Patient-Disabled-Adjustable/dp/B08HZ64XYX So why didn't he try getting one of these? It seems like the sort of thing you should at least try out before deciding to kill yourself.
I have nothing to add RE paralysis, but I think about having extra arms a lot, ever since I had kids of my own.
I think 4 arms and four to six legs sounds about perfect.
That used to be why people had kids in the first place
Hmm. 20 years of depression have had an effect analogous to this.
Something else to ruminate on, with a gradually imploding mind.
This makes for an interesting comparison to the ACX (SSC?) essay "Burdens." It strikes me that if Clayton were married or lived with a parent, many (most) of the indignities and time-wasting tasks associated with paraplegia care would have fallen on his family as well as himself. What can we conclude about their utility calculations? Let's say Clayton had been on the fence about suicide, or perhaps even very mildly net-positive on life; would his family have been justified in letting him know how much negative utility his existence had imposed on their lives?
Right now, the lack of options seems like a huge positive factor for family members caring for disabled relatives. As this review points out, discontent comes mostly from reality falling short of our expectations: I'm pretty happy as a two-armed person now, but might feel suicidal if I'd been born with three and had the chance to integrate that extra ability into my expectations of normal life. So if you have a disabled family member currently, then you get to resign yourself to fate, let it become your new normal, find other reasons to be grateful. In a world of fully legal MAiD, I don't quite see how healthy people would avoid developing the valid expectation that they should not have to deal with the burden of sick people-- not as individuals, not as a society. And thus, I expect we'd become collectively a lot angrier about sick people who selfishly inconvenience us by continuing to exist when they could just, you know, leave.
Unrelated, the chosen manner of this guy's death does not suggest calm rationality. Stabbing yourself in the stomach is an act of furious rage against your body.
Given this guy’s daily experience (having to dig your feces out of your rectum with your finger several times a day?!?), “furious rage against your body “ doesn’t seem very surprising.
Maybe unsurprising, but not rational and not admirable. If it had been his spouse, parent or child taking care of him, would they have been justified in stabbing him in furious rage at the body that inflicted such hardships upon them? Nurses' aides wrangle worse body-yuk tasks every day, charging far less than the pay premium this guy had already been gifted by virtue of his intellect, social privilege and remaining good looks.
It sounds as though a contempt and disgust for weakness was part of this guy's overall life philosophy, but I'm not sure any of us survive having that written in as a tenet of our communal ethics.
"It sounds as though a contempt and disgust for weakness was part of this guy's overall life philosophy, but I'm not sure any of us survive having that written in as a tenet of our communal ethics."
He does spend a whole lot of time quoting Nietzsche.
"And thus, I expect we'd become collectively a lot angrier about sick people who selfishly inconvenience us by continuing to exist when they could just, you know, leave."
I'm probably older than you are; I'm older than a lot of people. Having watched friends care for their aging parents, I can assure you that there's tremendous anger out there already about the need to sacrifice one's early, healthy retirement years to changing adult diapers and being unable to ever leave the neighborhood for a break, sometimes even for just a few hours.
I think the reason he went with that method was because he literally couldn't feel it. And unlike with wrists he wasn't limiting his mobility, so he was free to type his last words and try additional wounds if the first one didn't work.
He'd previously done a test run with helium, panicked, and probably had a phobia about it after.
I thought this sounded familiar, and...yep, someone did a (smaller) book review of Two Arms, One Head on the SSC reddit years ago: https://www.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/lcwq2h/book_review_two_arms_and_a_head_by_clayton_atreus/
...which I liked more. Although I'm reasonably sure I first heard about the book in The Atlantic or something similar. [Was gonna write a Substantive Comment here, but after going back and forth repeatedly, Going An Hero is...frankly just not a subject I feel like engaging with much anymore. Fought that battle too many times, nothing new or novel to say. Death is still the enemy; in practice, utility monsters and Bottomless Pits of Endless Suffering are hard to find. I'll admit that holding this belief is more consequentialist than Litany of Tarskist, but still think my meaningless life provides enough value for others that it's net-positive and worth continuing to play either way. Suicide and abortion: Safe, Legal, Rare...]
Reading this reminds me what a priority I think it should be to research something better.
My first thought is there is some (albeit limited) value for this person in today's brain computer interfaces. In the past 5-10ish years both arm & leg prosthetics have reached a point of near-natural mobility. I've also seen some people using implanted electrodes to control stimulators embedded in living tissue (instead of a robotic limb). On top of that, some of these prosthetics (at least in hands) have incorporated brain stimulation to provide feedback on touch - this helps the BCI perform better (more fluid hand movements), but also has the added advantage of feeling things. Move the electrode a little closer to the penis-sensation-region and were getting somewhere. Seeing a lot of these developments, it makes me think that we urgently need these technologies to roll-out at scale.
I get this doesn't solve all of this person's problems, 1) sensation is still not a common or well developed aspect of modern BCIs (the priority is recording brain activity to infer intended movement/speech, not stimulating the brain to generate sensory perception), and 2) I'm unaware of any attempts to build a BCI to control inner organs, which has me thinking about a BCI for inner organs.
Methodology: the highest level description of building a movement-BCI is: 1) record brain activity while 2) a person thinks about moving (flexing muscle X with Y force for Z seconds). With movement prosthetics for paralyzed people, since they can't move, and their imagined-movement is not objectively-measurable, the patient is instructed to watch another person move for the training set. Then with this dataset, you can record brain activity and infer how they intended to move (shifting from 'observed movement' in the training set to 'intended movement' in the test-set/application) - and it works miraculously. Thinking about internal organs, this method would be harder for colons, I doubt you could watch a medical animation of an intestine peristalting... and that would sufficiently activate an intention to peristalt... Is there some other way to generate a dataset that links brain activity with intended internal bodily movements? I bet there is a way.
My last point is that it seems way too hard to re-build a natural human link between brain --> peripheral nervous system. Easier to record from the brain, process that info using machine-learning, and feed this information into an artificial body or artificial peripheral nervous system of stimulating electrodes.
I'm not sure where this fits, but one thing disabled people/disability advocates worry about is getting killed because someone assumes it would be a mercy.
This is a valid concern, but consent is paramount everywhere that euthanasia is already an option. I don’t think this risk is half as real as the already acceptable risk in the U.S. that the right to bear arms leads to thousands of innocent people being shot without their consent every year.
The risk exists, and it's more about the emotional background conditions in a culture than about what's legal.
Thanks, but can you elaborate? I’m not sure I follow.
If the problem is that anyone who might get near the medical equipment or supplies deciding that death is a favor, then the default ideas in the culture matter a lot.
The risk doesn’t exist. Please point to even a single case where this has happened in America.
I like that you specified “In America.” Perhaps because you know it has already happened in Europe?
https://lozierinstitute.org/netherlands-forcible-euthanasia-case-and-the-slippery-slope/
I don't agree with Publius but the cause here wasn't an assumption that it's merciful. She very clearly indicated that she didn't want to keep living if it was in a facility. The assumption in this case was that her informed decision still applied after she'd lost her capacity to make informed choices.
I don't think we apply this standard in other areas, do we? E.g., I'm pretty sure that any western jurisdiction would tread having sex with someone who's black-out drunk as rape, even if the other person had explicitly said "Sure, sweetie, you can have sex with me if I get black-out drunk, I really don't mind" back when they were still sober.
Actually prosecution is unlikely, unless we're also asserting that the drunk person showed distress that was ignored. If someone tells their partner or their kink club in clear terms that they're ok with it, and doesn't show distress? The state is unlikely to spend the resources for a court case on the theory that what looks like a good faith assumption of consent didn't count. So in most places it would be in legal limbo, where it hasn't been formally determined how laws apply.
But there's two major differences here. First, she didn't just not-mind being euthanized. She requested it. She requested it because of the dementia that removed her capacity to confirm or withdraw consent. Second, there's no indication the doctor enjoyed herself. She was there to perform her duties to the patient as she understood them.
Let me suggest another equivalent- zombies. Suppose society is partially intact after the outbreak, and even has the resources to build a walled-off zombie preserve. Your friend requests that if he ever gets turned, you shoot him and spare him the indignity. Then one day you go to his house and he's a zombie. Now you have a problem. The zombie is not a danger, and when asked if he still consents he says "Raaaaagh" and doesn't comply.
I'd say his ability to make decisions while of sound mind for handling his future reduced self are very important parts of autonomy.
This sounds like a very important book but I'm not going to read it, I just don't have the courage to. But I'm glad that you read it so I don't have to.
overlong ad for death. And yes, it's very easy to find out which drugs to take to kill yourself, idiots with online access do it all the time, you don't need the state to take over from the private sector
Then, in the spirit of keeping the state out of it, could we rollback laws that keep people from posting instructions online for carrying out relatively painless, successful suicides? Could we deregulate the sale of products that are designed specifically to help someone self euthanize? This seems to be the most consistent position to take for people who want less state interference in their lives.
Nah, I don't value consistency as much as I value human lives. Nor should anyone else who calls himself an ethical person
So you do need the state to take over from the private sector. At least when it comes to limiting people’s self determination.
That’s still consistency — consistently putting human lives first
The obvious and completely non-ableist solution to assisted suicide that it should be a human right. Literally everyone should be able to do it, as a result of explicit non-impulsive decision, with a waiting time to reconsider, during which you talk to suicide prevention specialists, whether you are disabled in some way or not.
If it’s a human right why require any of the “non-impulsive” stuff and why inject suicide prevention specialists? If people want to off themselves including on a whim why are you getting in the way?
Because maybe they don't really want to
I was just thinking of getting a motorcycle..
I really enjoyed this review. I guess a lot of my existence is related to physical stuff even if I type for a job. I do wonder if he would have felt differently if he had been able to separate out some of his wants ie being taller than everyone else. Still, is it right to force someone to want different things? Like if he had told a doctor that he wanted to kill himself because he couldn't be tall anymore, then he probably would have been viewed as crazy. It's weird that he had to launder basic desires for unachievable status into existentialism in order to make his case. The desire for physical activity seems like a spectrum with no correct answer. Should I kill myself because I can't win gold in an olympic swimming competition? By the genetic standards of an olympic swimmer, I am basically disabled in that no matter how hard I try, my body shape will not allow me to go as fast as them. Still, the sane answer is "No, you shouldn't kill yourself on account of that". It doesn't make any sense, but it does seem to make sense to me that not being able to take care of your bodily functions would be very depressing and would serve as a more valid answer. I still don't think he should have killed himself, but I think it's more understandable
Did any chess players kill themselves when deepblue won against Kasparov? I don't think so, but now all humans are severely disabled compared to modern chess engines. The perception that this disability is OK and the fact that chess skill mostly doesn't matter except for a few select people probably helps. So I think that probably chronic pain and actually having much less physical ability compared to normal people and having to spend tons of time cleaning up your own poop would probably be more depressing than just not having a particular physical ability
> I don't think so, but now all humans are severely disabled compared to modern chess engines. The perception that this disability is OK and the fact that chess skill mostly doesn't matter except for a few select people probably helps.
If you think humans are severely disabled compared to chess engines, try comparing them to steam shovels.
It seems like a lot of countries (and writers) have set up a false dichotomy: Either MAiD is legal or even mentioning that you want to kill yourself lands you in the psych ward. At least in this particular case, it sounds like what Clayton wanted most was the “neither” option. He didn’t really want or need a doctor’s help (he didn’t feel any pain from stabbing himself anyway). He just wanted to be able to talk about killing himself without being locked up.
Has any country tried this as a policy? I understand there would be downsides, but there are downsides to both of the other options too.
When you make something more socially acceptable, that thing becomes more common. I'm not sure what kind of benefits there'd have to be that would outweigh the increasing frequency of suicide, never mind the other unintended consequences.
I don’t think a real friend would report someone who confessed their suicidality in his shoes, as it is completely understandable and rational. But from reading other comments here from those who have read the book, it seems like he didn’t have close friends. Which without human connections there isn’t much meaning in life anyway.
I am a little skeptical of his concern that even mentioning suicide would have him locked up. I'm not in the US (I'm in the UK) so maybe it's different there, but from what I've read it sounds fairly similar.
What gets you locked up is saying you have a plan that you intend to complete imminently. I have been able to have very frank discussions about suicidal ideation with therapists, particularly the sort of existential concerns that make up most of his book, without any suggestion it would get me placed in a psych ward.
There's always a risk, especially with skittish new clinicians, that they might get spooked and panic and try to commit you, but at worst it would be a brief hold. And ime it's very obvious who you can and can't talk to sensibly about this stuff.
I don't really buy his rationale, tbh. He couldn't have at least talked to a trusted friend about it? My impression was that he was (understandably) full of rage about what happened to him and focusing on anti MAiD ideas, or the idea that he couldn't talk to anyone about this or he'd be sectioned, provided a target for what was otherwise unbearable, target-less anger.
People in these circumstances should have a right to die on their terms.
But I can't help but notice that this review makes it sound like this person had unnoticed life meaning problems before the accident. The only real discussion of human connection is with inability to have sex (which is a very valid reason for despair!). No wife, no close friends, no children. No real purpose other than self-satisfaction.
My dad passed recently. Before his death, he was disabled for roughly two years. He was fed through a feeding tube and had no ability to speak. He could not be away from home for more than a couple hours. He also had a gaping face wound that made it difficult to be in public and that had to be constantly packed and cared for, and caused immense pain.
Before his illness he was adamant about not living as a burden to his friends and family, and ending his life on his terms. But when those choices arrived he was equally adamant about doing everything he could to preserve his life. Why? Because he had a new granddaughter and wanted to spend time with her. Because he wanted to be there for my mother. Because his sister from out of town moved nearby and he still enjoyed hosting her despite not being able to execute on most "hosting" duties.
There is for sure a point where physical disability's negatives outweigh those positives but it's jarring and a bit sad to see them go completely undiscussed. This is all horrific and I'm not sure how I'd react if I was suddenly disabled. But I suspect in a culture that encouraged meaning-based lives those horrors might be easier to endure.
I am all for the availability of assisted suicide for situations like Clayton's and it sure sounds like his relationship to his body and his slate of hobbies and pastimes did not afford him much to look forward to with paraplegia, but, also, his - tool use? - seems really inadequate. He got a wheelchair from somewhere but nobody told him they make diapers in adult sizes? Diapers are my go-to when I am responsible for sphincters that don't know what to do and when to do it and they work great for keeping shit off the sofa! There's no butt-plumbing objects on the market nor possible to makeshift? Really? I feel for the guy and I wish he'd been able to talk to someone - not to stop him from committing suicide, but to take him shopping in case retail therapy helped more directly than usual.
He does mention the option of diapers in the book, he just chose not to use them. I don't know what I would have chosen if I were him.
> nor possible to makeshift?
Puncture the tube and you die slowly. I assumed that was why he used his fingers.
I think health should be defined as what ever lines up with their terminal presences if those most heavily impacted. So being immortal and un-aging if you’re someone who wanted to experience growing old and dying is actually a disease and if we met a person or alien in those circumstances we’d have an obligation to try and cure them. Likewise if being young and alive forever/as long as possible is what’s closest to a beings terminal preferences then aging is in their case a horrible disease that we should be working on a cure/treatments for.
When it comes to disability I think there is a genuine argument that people treat the lack of certain abilities or parts as intrinsically bad regardless of the preferences of those effected and that leads to a lot of harm. Imagine if we treated an inability to reproduce as inherently bad therefore denied anyone access to vasectomies or contraceptives, that would make for a worst world to live in more times than not.
There’s a condition called body integrity identity disorder where people desire to have body parts or functions removed (wanting to be blinded or have a hand or legged remove etc). People with this condition are often so distressed by the state of their bodies that they feel suicidal and will risk serious (unwanted) injury to try and make these changes but doctors generally deny them the changes they want and instead offer cognitive behavioral therapy (which has not been proven to work). I think that is a case where the belief that disabilities are inherently bad and that being able to do certain things (like see or walk or use two hands) actually is creating a lot of unnecessary evil and we should really change. If an alien came and gave me four arms or the ability to photosynthesize or see ultraviolet, I’d want the option to have those features removed if I don’t like them and not treated as crazy for wanting to be a default human and get we struggle extending that understanding to someone who might not want to be able to hear or have two legs.
I’d also want this attitude extended to what kind of lives people consider worth living or not. It would be one thing if someone wanted to die contingent on false beliefs being true (I.e. “I can never be happy again” when we have reason to believe they will) but if someone is lucid and has realistic expectations and still comes away saying “no I don’t like this and nothing will change that” then we’re just causing illness of a different sort by denying them a decent death.
Why aren’t more people doing the Olfactory ensheathing cells thing? That sounds like something you should be hearing about and seeing research done everywhere all the time with a result like that.
My friend has this, but he got a colostomy bag.
The difficulties with bowel movements were only part of the problem, but I can assure you an ostomy is not a cure.
I had a colectomy as a result of treatment-resistant Ulcerative Colitis. I'm on a J-pouch now, but while that was healing, I had a temporary ostomy.
That month was filled with body horror* and intense stress, and the thought of going back to an ostomy used to fill me with dread before I decided I wouldn't be doing that. It works for some people, apparently, but not for me(I've long suspected a lot of them are deluding themselves, but in any case they're not me).
My J-pouch will fail eventually, at which point, barring some kind of miracle cure, my life will be effectively over. I've accepted that, even if some of my friends haven't.
*No need to use your fingers to dislodge the waste--it just oozes out 24/7, even when you're trying to shave the area around the stoma while changing bags so the new bag won't start leaking all over everything.
I’m so glad to hear that you’ve found some sort of a solution that makes things better for you.
I think it is revealing how varied people’s response to this can be — some people can’t stand ostomy bags, some couldn’t stand a J pouch I’m sure — “normalcy a la carte” where you pick and choose which part bothers you
A point I haven't seen mentioned in the comments is just how isolated Clayton was *prior* to his accident. He was attempting a 5,000+ mile motorcycle ride by himself when he broke his back. He mentions that by age 30 he had never dated any person for longer than a year. Thirty is also a relatively late age to start law school, not sure what to make of that. He also mentions having been in 50+ lifetime fistfights which sure sounds like a lot. It's strange that he starts law school mere weeks after the motorcycle crash instead of recuperating somewhere safe and familiar (in a family member's home perhaps). I don't remember him ever mentioning his parents or any siblings but maybe I missed it.
The picture coalesces of someone who is... "loner" is probably not the right word, maybe "hunter" or "seeker" is better. He is far more focused (in his book at least) on abstract concepts like virtue ethics than he is any particular individuals in his life, and when he describes other people they tend to be categories rather than individuals (other paraplegics; law school classmates; fantasy women on the beach).
I say this without any judgment intended: His mental/psychological makeup seems tragically maladaptive for dealing with the consequences of the particular injury he sustained*. I'd bet that if he became blind or deaf instead of paraplegic he'd still be alive today. The loss of freedom was too much and he probably did way too much online research on his condition in isolation for his own good.
(As an example of the final point: He's enraged at various disability advocates, but how many of them has he actually corresponded with personally? Or is he just watching them on YouTube and getting angry at what he sees? If the latter, isn't this just another set of parasocial relationships [like how he connects to Nietzsche] when what he really needed was somebody who checked on him every day?)
* (Edit 8/5/24: This is echoed by a Reddit comment from someone who used to live with Clayton. "When he called me up to tell me about his accident, I couldn't imagine it happening to a worse person. I don't mean he was a bad person, but that of all people he wouldn't be able to be happy without the use of his body." from https://www.reddit.com/r/Pessimism/comments/p542i0/two_arms_and_a_head_the_death_of_a_newly/)
I know social liberals like to rag on old-timey close-knit communities, but cases like Clayton's illustrate why they're Good, Actually. "Just leave me alone, I wanna do what I wanna do" is fine when you're young and healthy, but when you have a condition that makes it effectively impossible to function on your own, a society of atomised individuals who just happen to be living in geographical close proximity really can't provide the support you need.
But when they are not there anymore, which they increasingly are not anywhere, you need the state. As the nearest available substitute. (Private insurance markets for 24/7 care without time limits do not exist AFAIK.)
...assuming you cannot go back to the old-timey times again. Which no country has been able to, so far.
Oh sure, I'm not suggesting that simply telling people "Be more close-knit!" is a solution to anything. But, as they say, the first step to solving a problem is admitting you actually have one. Maybe it really is impossible to bring back close communities no matter what we do (being a natural doomer, I wouldn't rule it out), but it's definitely impossible as long as the majority of politically and culturally influential people continue to believe that close-knit communities are inherently oppressive and the good life is to be found in living as an anonymous, interchangeable cog of the global economy.
It is somehow forgotten in the comments, that Clayton felt constant pain. Probably it does not dominate his text and the difficulties with defecation caught more attention from the reviewer. Still, I was surprised by the pain part. Isn't it something that can be managed ?
My understanding (not a doctor etc) from reading people's experiences of chronic pain online is that nerve pain is notoriously hard to treat. I believe it's not necessarily responsive to the standard pain treatment protocols, and while some people may have luck with alternative drugs (e.g. certain antidepressants or anticonvulsants), there's no guarantee that anything will work.
Reading the book, the main thing that came through to me was a sense of his anger. It pervaded his whole thinking process imo. I wonder how much that might have been alleviated had his pain been more amenable to treatment.
I certainly don't think that accounts for all of his anger, but I am sure it must colour his experience. I don't think pain can really be siloed off as just one issue of many. It affects everything. (Just thinking aloud there, not suggesting you were implying it could be.)
Yes, I have had a long term pain from a herniated disc and it affected all my perception. (Luckily, I am fine now, it went away completely.)
I remembered a movie about Larry Flynt (directed by Milos Forman). He was also in a lot of pain after becoming paraplegic and used dangerous doses of painkillers. Later, the doctors decided to "kill" completely some of his damaged nerves and it worked, but, apparently, it is not a first line of the tratment, maybe it does not work all the time etc...
My late wife had one of the most painful medical conditions that existed, and the pain was only partially controlled by opioids. One of the things that happened to her near the end of her life was a massive stroke in her spinal cord that caused her to lose sensation in her legs... and also some of the areas that were affected by said painful condition. In the long run it probably would have meant that she would never walk again - but she hadn't been able to walk anyway and she died before the "long run" could matter. :(
Four years ago my brother was shot in the back point blank by a twelve-gauge shotgun. He died instantly. Thank God he didn't end up like this.
I am puzzled by the description of Clayton having to dig his poop out of his anus with his fingers because he has no sphincter action. I have never heard of such a thing before. Is there a conspiracy to hide this need in paraplegics from public knowledge, or is it rare that it’s necessary? Besides, many paraplegics have no control over their arms either. Stephen Hawking didn’t. Christopher Reeve didn’t. How did they poop?
Digital stimulation or “dil” — they have a caretaker do this for them every 2 days or so. They usually set aside a few hours to make it happen.
Glad that the review mentioned Johnny Got His Gun. What a tour de force of a book (that every young adult should be required to read before enlisting in the military).
> You probably don't fantasize on a daily basis about what life would be like with four arms. If you really try, you could imagine a few ways that life would be easier:
> But despite the possibilities, you don't dwell on it every day, because... you don't have four arms. You have two.
You don't? Well actually most of my imagining isn't about having 4 arms specifically. Some of it is about having multiple human bodies (like in a way that lets me be in several places at once. Yes this implies a sort of duplicated mind hivemind mental structure. And imagining that is a little tricky)
But being totally unable to feel the wind in your imaginary wings? Can most people imagine sensations from body parts or senses they don't have, like at all?
Few things could make it clearer just how extremely evil our society has already become than reading this review.
It's weird that a group like the rationalists that likes to talk about Chesterton's Fence and second-order effects and the effects of rules on decisions and so on would be so blase about the efffect of universal access to assisted suicide on life -- on everyone.
I'm sorry. I like talking and discussing and arguing and all that, but at the moment, I am just looking around and thinking -- "Everyone here is blind!"
But I realize how unproductive this is, so.... here: there are *excellent, excellent* reasons why it's hard to kill yourself and why you get locked up if you tell people you're thinking about it. The world without those properties does not look like this world, but with people in Clayton's position having an easier time killing themselves. It looks much worse than that. It looks like a world where people have an internalized sense that life is made worthwhile by absence of suffering. It looks like one where the head of ethics of a hospital resigns because they're not trying to treat depressed people anymore, just have them kill themselves (OP didn't mention that part of the Dutch story. I guess the ethics head was just dumb and didn't know the score?) It looks like a world where the guilt every old person who is a burden on others but is still loved now has that guilt turn into suicidal guilt and then suicide, rather than just an unpleasant part of a still-worthwhile life. It looks like a world with a looming "easy" option for every person going through hard times. And it looks like a world that has taken a very definitive stand on the sanctity of human life, one that is at odds with every great civilization. No society can embrace insanity and last, so this too shall pass; but only at great human cost.
As for you, reader: if you're not at least *considering* those various effects and the many more that could be named (even if you end up disagreeing with their importance, or continuing to pursue assisted suicide legalization), then I'm sorry, but rationalism has probably been a waste of your time.
There are more than a dozen countries with medical assistance in death programs, some of them for over two decades, and none of these programs have resulted in the imaginary hellscape you describe. Many of the countries that have such programs are among the most desirable countries to live in in the world (New Zealand, Germany, Canada, Netherlands, Switzerland, etc.) where levels of reported life satisfaction are extremely high.
This argument that MAiD programs result in the bullying of the elderly and disabled into ending their lives against their will is a fantasy that isn’t supported by any tangible evidence.
Good thing I didn't say anything about the elderly or disabled being bullied into ending their lives against their will, then, isn't it?
Yes, it's not surprising that assisted suicide would take off first in countries with a very high standard of living and good life satisfaction. It has always been easiest among the rich to forget that life can be worth living during hard times. I did not mean to suggest that assisted suicide would (initially) affect overall quality of life. What I described is not a hellscape, except literally.
And, I don't agree that things are not bad in the countries you describe. The ones that have had it longest have expanded the list of who can receive suicide more and more, far beyond the initial causes and very, very far beyond cases like Clayton's. Why do think that might be, if none of the phenomena I describe is at play? Is it non-obvious to you that allowing depressed people to end their lives easily might be a bad idea?
Here is some first-hand testimony worth reading. https://committees.parliament.uk/writtenevidence/117110/pdf/
>Good thing I didn't say anything about the elderly or disabled being bullied into ending their lives against their will, then, isn't it?
Your words: >looks like a world where the guilt every old person who is a burden on others but is still loved now has that guilt turn into suicidal guilt and then suicide, rather than just an unpleasant part of a still-worthwhile life. It looks like a world with a looming "easy" option for every person going through hard times.
I guess you can claim “the elderly” aren’t “old people” and that a disabled person isn’t someone going through a “hard time” and that making people feel unnecessarily guilty isn’t “bullying” but those are all difficult positions to defend and make it sound like your looking for loopholes.
But I wasn't talking about old people being "bullied" "against their will" into ending their lives. I was talking about an altogether different and much more subtle dynamic. Many old people who want to keep living and who are treasured by their families nevertheless feel guilt about being a burden. (Sometimes that is how they are perceived, sometimes it is not). This opens the way for that to turn into a reason to end one's life, because they have to answer the question, "Why am I not ending my life instead of being a burden?" Whereas in a society with a strong norm against suicide, that question answers itself much more easily. (Not that such suicides don't still sometimes happen).
None of that has anything to do with bullying, as one might have detected by (say) reading what I wrote.
As for evidence of the dynamic I *did* describe, you can click the link I shared above and see it described by somebody who read thousands of actual case reports regarding Dutch assisted suicide.
Very interesting testimony. Thanks for providing it. I wish the reviewer had actually looked into some of these arguments against MAiD instead of the strawmanning. I guess I would ask any MAiD advocate where exactly they draw the line between who is eligible for MAiD and who is not (e.g., terminal illness?, severe disability?, psychiatric illness?, chronic illness?, lack of meaning?, loss of a partner?, prison time?, being in severe debt?, ...). And then I would also like to know how confident they are that this line should never in the name of compassion be extended to someone else who also is suffering horribly, but just outside the line.
Few things could make it clearer just how extremely divorced from reality online discourse have already become than reading this comment.
Reading the actual book - while it's depressing, it's not any more gruesome than the book review already suggests. It's certainly dark, and uncomfortable, and makes you think. It also gives me a drastically different impression than the original review, because I'm also noticing a lot more things that the review author has omitted.
Mostly it's about the kind of things the author misses. I don't find him particularly rude or unpleasant, but he's certainly someone from way outside my usual social circle. And the things he deems most important to him, so precious and irreplaceable that their loss is to him a fate worse than death - I can't help but keep comparing them mentally to my own life.
He misses being physically active. I am physically active, but mostly just out of knowing it's necessary to keep yourself in shape; some sports are enjoyable to me, but it's not the end of the world to miss a training. He misses being physically strong - I struggle with even a heavy bag of groceries. He misses being able to punch someone - I've never been to a fight. He misses the subtle body language social clues - everyone says my body language is "off", and I long gave up on figuring out how exactly. He misses sex - sex is good, but I don't miss it that much when I don't have it. He misses being imposing and impressive, hates when people still like him but in a "he's cute" way - I look like a child, and though annoying it at times, made peace with it.
I like playing music, and listening to it. I like coding, and reading, and video games. I write and translate poetry. I like long phone calls with friends and roleplaying and collecting plush toys. You know what unites all of these things? Two arms and a head could also do all of these. Even if dragging around the rest of the body would certainly introduce some quite unpleasant difficulties.
Sure, I also like biking and running and skating and gardening. I would miss them, yes. And lack of autonomy would hurt too. But it's just a share of things I love and appreciate in my life.
But I can't help but wonder. Here I am, an able-bodied by any reasonable metric person, with all my extremities, muscles, stomach, and reproductive system, with all the sensations and a full range of mobility available to me. And yet I'm barely making use of it. What would Clayton think of me? If Clayton's life is terrible beyond comprehension, what does it make of mine?
Are you not sadly using your body to the fullest, or was he sadly limited by his brain and acculturation before he even get even more sadly limited by his spine, style of thing?
I don't know. I know I'm pretty satisfied with my life - maybe I'm "not using my body to the fullest", but if I'm fine with it, I don't think it's particularly sad. It's not like I can sell my legs off to Clayton for even a billion dollars.
But perhaps Clayton would judge me for being so wasteful. And I don't know if he would find my life enjoyable, were he forced to live it.
Many of the things I like best can be done by "two arms and a head", too. Still, I've known many people with serious physical limitations and significant health problems, and I've learned to be grateful that I can comfortably walk a mile, lift heavy objects, and bend over to grab things that are on the ground without pain.
I'm picking this book up and labeling it "read immediately". The author of the review does a great job on two fronts, reviewing the book and giving commentary on the world of knowledge that surrounds it. I have a similar feeling post-read as I did reading 'My Left Kidney'. That issues like MAiD are hardly talked about but fully achievable with minimal-ish effort.
This is #1 for me
I read this review several days ago and haven't stopped thinking about it. It's like...affected the way I look at life. I don't think I'll read the book, I've gotten enough of the effect already. Excellent write up.
Am I the only one amused by the fact that this review was published just two days before Lex Friedman published his 8-hour Neuralink interview series? This is not a coincidence because nothing is ever a coincidence! I normally find Lex mildly annoying, but this was a really great topic, and therefore really great interviews. It's also interesting to note that their patient 1 (Noland Arbaugh, who's also interviewed in the series) is quadraplegic (not paraplegic), but retained a positive outlook on life, which he (rightly or wrongly) attributes to his Christian beliefs.
Your data from Oregon (thanks for the link!) are interesting. I particularly noticed the following:
"Tallying up all the surveys from 1998–2023, the top reasons [for seeking assisted suicide in Oregon] are: ....“Financial implications of treatment” (7%)"
...I would be interested in this number broken down by age, and ideally also by employment situation (employed vs. self-employed). Do you know if that has been done? (I have followed the Oregon link but cannot find any such breakdown there, and I suspect outsiders can not easily get access to the data file.)
Reason for asking: To my knowledge, after age 65 Medicare takes care of the expenses for 24/7 medical and nursing care without time-limit. But before age 65, you have to rely on private insurance if you do not want to rake up bills. And no private insurance company I am aware of operates 24/7 no-time-limit medical/nursing disability insurance. (It is too expensive for people to be able to afford it, plus you have a serious adverse selection problem.) If this is correct, you should expect "financial burden" to characterize those below-65 in particular.
Why? Because by killing yourself, your family avoids raking up a large debt that they will be burdened with, after you have gone. (Unlike in countries with public health insurance including 24/7 intensive care without time limit, also for everyone under age 65.)
The point is that the incentive to kill yourself to not financially burden your family should be particularly strong for below-65 years old, in particular if they also are self-empoyed before they became seriously & costly disabled. (Some US employees may have occupational health insurance schemes that offer such insurance, if the occupational risk pool is very large. But the self-employed do not have such "private" access.)
Medicare most definitely does *not* cover long-term disability care - it only covers rehabilitation, not help with activities of daily living. If you need help paying for home health aides or nursing home care, the most useful government program for that is Medicaid - and you usually have to be absolutely broke to qualify.
Thanks Doug, that is interesting and important information.
I guess that means that there is then unlikely to be large age differences in those reporting the cost of treatment (7%), or being a (financial) burden on their family, as (part of) the reason for wanted assistant dying.
But a follow-up question: how, then, do ordinary working class & middle class people pay for countinuous 24/7 treatment, for those who find themselves in this situation? If US costs for such care roughly corresponds to Scandinavian costs, such care will run down your savings very fast. You'd soon approach a situation where you have to sell yours or the family's house. Unless you die.
...perhaps at least strong/core groups of employees get these costs covered through occupational or special-group health care schemes? So perhaps at least public employees, autoworkers, and war veterans have insurance schemes that cover the costs of such care?
I know a few people who get and need home care, and even if it's paid for, getting good quality help is its own challenge. I don't have a strong feeling for the odds since there's a reasonable chance of getting someone good and a reasonable chance of getting someone who's inept.
Also, I read Christopher Reeve's memoir, and paying for the ventilator he needed to breathe was a constant worry. I don't know what was going on with that.
The idea that people do some sort of a cost-benefit analysis before deciding to take their own life (or to go on living) was first explored by Gary Becker and Richard Posner in "An economic theory of suicide" (2004).
To my knowledge they never managed to get it published, despite Gary Becker's Nobel prize. But the pdf is easily accessable, and the theory is quite often referred to in the social science literature:
https://gwern.net/doc/psychiatry/2004-becker.pdf
...A version of the idea has sort-of been taken up in clinical practice through "Managing Suicidal Risk: A Collaborative Approach" by David Jobes and Thomas Joiner. (Although they would probaby protest that Becker/Posner was any sort of inspiration for their manual.)
...as a side note, when on a visit to UC Berkeley a psychotherapy-oriented colleague claimed that Becker wrote this paper as part of his grief-consolation process, after his wife committed suicide. Making everything "rational" was Becker's psychological defence mechanism.
...A possibility worth thinking about for self-declared "rationalists".
Been reading through and it's one of the saddest things I've seen. We so utterly failed this man and made his one precious life so much worse.
I’m really glad that the reviewer has explored the existential angle in a way that resonates with people, but his ableism argument is frankly stupid. Obviously the straw man he constructs is absurd but that is not what ableism is about. I volunteer with people who live with very severe disabilities and the prejudice they face is insane. People often speak to wheelchair users like children or will push their chair without asking. Offices will have doors that no one without full mobility can properly open. The most important thing for disabled people is maintaining a sense of dignity, and while their issues create barriers to that, so too do the attitudes they face. The gaping hole in this review is the social angle - what context was this guy living in? Why did he react to his injury so much worse than other people? What does it mean to be disabled beyond your internal experience and loss.
>Why did he react to his injury so much worse than other people?
I’m re-reading it now, and IMO Clayton was, at the time of writing this, heavily romanticizing his pre-injury life.
“I am Horowitz with no fingers. Phiddipides with no legs, Shakespeare with no pen. Michelangelo with no chisel or paintbrush. I am not what I am.”
Maybe he was the adventurer playboy bodybuilder he claims he was pre-accident, and maybe that’s part of why he was so negative. But I think he’s also heavily looking at the past with rose colored glasses, isolating the good and ignoring the bad of his pre-injury life, the same way many of us do as we age.
This is a bad take. The way Clayton talks about his body is a kin to something approaching bulemia - to have that much contempt for your own body is not normal/healthy.
The way he talks about sex post-injury shows he is clearly depressed and not able to enjoy what should be a fun time if he is opposite-sex-attracted. An alternative explanation might be that he was simply never interested in women beyond genital stimulation. In either case, it is not normal for spinal injury by itself to make you find sex disgusting.
Describing the method spinal injury people use to deficate as "digging out your own ass" and "fingering your own ass hole" have a heavy hetero-normative vibe to it - as in, it is negatively coded or low status to have to use digital stimulation to take a s**t. Digital stimulation is probably difficult to get used to, but to find it all so disgusting again is probably not a healthy sign. Coupled with the fact Clayton finds sex with women after his injury disgusting/pointless, might demonstrate the kind of subtextual homophobia closested homosexuals use to deflect from their true sexuality which they might not even be aware of. This is speculative but Clayton sounds like he has some issues and therefore is probably not the best example to use for gauging the "true" realty of spinal injury.
The fact that Clayton is an existentialist is very revealing and the way he wraps this up in pseudo-Nietzschian ideas around master-morality, that he is merely radically honest and everything else is the false consciousness and slave morality - demonstrates an arrogantly immature outlook. This to me is an example of some who simply is not equipped to take responsibility for his situation. Spinal injury is probably no worse than looking after a small child and, although it can be lonely at times, it is not something to commit suicide over. Furthermore, for the reviewer to use this as an case study for a pro-euthanasia argument is weak strea-man territory, especially as Clayton is showing clear signs of depression and is in denial about this.
A health professional should bring Clayton to terms with his post-injury depression and address his body disphoria. They would have tried to help Clayton down new avenues to find joy/happiness etc. they would have advised him to abandom existentialism as it is not an effective ideology for dealing with lifes problems in any form. This is therefore an example of an tragic and preventable loss of life.
“Spinal injury is no worse than looking after a small child” what a bizarre and absurd statement
Pretty sure they’re trolling.
Not really. Say it's a single parent with a toddler, paraplegia is comparable in regards to the time and effort demands of that situation and also re how much urine/faeces you might have to clean up. There are obvious dissimilarities but broadly they have similar demands.
The author here makes the mistake of assuming Clayton has somekind of unique access to disabled consciousness and he uses that to further his pro-euthanasia argument. But the reality is Clayton is a flawed individual and would struggle with any of life's difficulties. He is a bad foil for the argument.
That's not to say spinal injury is a "walk in the park" but Clayton just simply is not equipped to "dig" himself out of his depression and see the bright side of life.
Was thinking today actually: this is published 2008 which is a shame because the whole Jordan Peterson counter-existentialism stuff is not long after this and Clayton would have benefited immensely from that kind of thing. But oh well! RIP Clayton.
Your analysis is seriously lacking. Clayton suffered from constant neuropathic pain and repetitive stress injury. This is quite different from looking after a toddler, unless it was an exceptionally violent autistic toddler who attacked you randomly all the time.
Not so. Mild neuro pain can be dulled with paracetamol in many cases and tendonitis is easy to resolve with stretching and anti-inflammation supplements. The guy was weak-willed and immature, this is ironic considering he quotes Nietzsche so much. He is enveloped in catastrophic thinking and has mistaken depression for special insight into the world. He is delusional basically and the author is sharing in his delusion.
chronic Tylenol isn’t a good solution. You must lack expertise in medicine if you think taking that daily is a solution. And “just stretch” isn’t likely to help either because he has to make to the same repetitive movements regardless of how his muscles feel.
Saying suicide is for the weak just makes me think you’ve lived a very easy and sheltered life. Good for you! I pray you never encounter true suffering
I see what you did there and I appreciate it
Damn.
I'm literally crying right now. My late wife, Jamie, went through something similar in the last years of her life before she died this past March at the age of 31. Despite everything else that happened to her, her death was a surprise when it came, and she and I never actually lost hope that someday she'd be able to go home from the hospital. I visited her there literally every evening (with few exceptions) for about a year. We'd talk, watch movies, hold hands, and when I got home, I'd read novels out loud to her on the phone as she fell asleep. She loved to play music on her phone and sing along so the nurses and hospital staff could hear, and she had such a wonderful singing voice; we talked about making videos of her singing and uploading them to TikTok. There were a couple times she was well enough to leave the hospital and go to a skilled nursing facility, and one time I even got to bring our dog, which we adopted when we got engaged, to visit her there. When she passed, many members of the staff at the hospital in which she spent the most time all signed a sympathy card and sent it to me.
My wife eventually admitted to me that one reason she hadn't been taking care of herself very well when we met was that she didn't feel particularly interested in staying alive, but I eventually got her medical coverage and convinced her to start using it, and ironically it was only after she finally did start getting treated that everything really started to fall apart. We had nearly ten wonderful years together, and, in the end, she still wanted to continue to live in spite of everything, but she didn't get to.
(I did get her to agree to be cryopreserved, but when she said yes it was too late; I had no money to pay for it, she was too sick to qualify for life insurance, and the members of my family that could have paid for it believed that it would be futile and refused.)
I loved her, and I miss her.
::cries::
2 things (answers to points I can't immediately re-find
1. The victims we are talking about have become tetraplegic because of horses and motorbikes and climbing. I don't think it follows that people with less dangerous interests (chess?) would mind paraplegia less. I bet with a high degree of confidence that the actual victims would take being able to shower and cook and go shopping, but without the hobby, vs. ok you can start riding horses again but you are stuck with all the other disabilities.
This point is obscured because the victims talk a lot about what they used to do. But that's obsession. You do too these things because you are obsessed in the first place, and you are also going to be obsessed after the fact with whatever put you in a wheelchair. Double whammy
2. Lot of talk about the author's brash laddishness which is fair. BUT his account of the failure of his first suicide attempt is heartbreaking
A lot of people really are ableist in the actually-bad sense, some of those try to cover it up, and overall the result is a near-complete societal inability to distinguish between the intrinsic worth of a person and the value to that person (and to society) of being able to live their own life on their own terms.
One advantage of transhumanist values is biting that bullet in the other direction: Yes, the disabled have just as much inherent worth as anyone else, but also, *no one* should be considered truly able-bodied or of sound mind, because the ceiling of possibility is just so much higher than anyone has ever experienced.
This was concise and beautifully written. I was biased against MAiD simply because of how far Canada has abused it and killed many perfectly healthy people (at least, that was my impression), but I think you've pretty much changed my mind on this issue entirely. RIP Clayton.
I am 100% certain that this "anonymous" reviewer is the same person who reviewed "On the Marble Cliffs" last year.
If so, sir, both of these reviews are among the best short pieces I have ever read in my life. I am humbled before you and your intellectual spirit.
BRetty
Don't want to minimise what Clayton went thru and my heart goes out to him and his bravery, but just wanted to point out that his life didn't become unlivable until he'd finished his book/project/mission. If he'd chosen a longer project he might still be alive today. So this is equally evidence against assisted dying. (Or we could just ban motorcycles.)
I had to stop listening to (the SSC podcast of) this after about 8 minutes in. I felt nauseous and dizzy. I've never had a bodily reaction like this before to anything I've read or listened to.
That being said, it was eye-opening, and I'm glad I was exposed to it, since I've never truly considered the what it's like to be paralyzed. I'm going to use an LLM to help me skip the parts that I lack the intestinal fortitude for, since I feel there are important lessons here.