×
top 200 commentsshow 500

[–][deleted] 609 points610 points  (2 children)

imagine having a chance to make a species more or less from scratch, then giving it a goddamn menstrual cycle. these poor bastards were doomed from the start.

[–]citriclem0n 379 points380 points  (1 child)

They didn't have a menstrual cycle, they just used specific hormones to drive pregnancy.

It was really a lot more basic than this write-up makes it seem.

[–]internetstuff 147 points148 points  (0 children)

I think that was part of the allure. All this flash around artificial chemistry, neural nets, etc. I think ultimately it was much more straightforward, but it was that time when we were all watching X-Files and thought computers were magic.

[–]mossgoblin 2358 points2359 points  (4 children)

This is gold standard hobbydrama. It has everything.

Bravo, excellent write up.

And that creepy-ass monkey baby bot monstrousity is going to give me night terrors, so thanks for that too.

[–]ispy92 170 points171 points  (1 child)

I love the creepy baby monkey robot. I’d adopt it

[–]SplurgyAMay/June '21 People's Choice[S] 24 points25 points  (0 children)

She comes with a robotic sister called Grace. Steve Grand jokingly told kickstarter donors to "stay away from her".

[–]Zoloft_and_the_RRD 148 points149 points  (0 children)

And that creepy-ass monkey baby bot monstrousity is going to give me night terrors, so thanks for that too.

This post was such a wild ride that I forgot about the robot ape baby. That feels like such a long time ago.

[–]cemeterycorner 1233 points1234 points  (48 children)

The games are available on GOG very cheaply for those who are interested (Creatures: the Albian Years for the first + second games compiled and Creatures: Exodus for the most recent version with its expansion). And can absolutely confirm, played this obsessively as a teenager and have grown up to be a real-life bacterial geneticist. I attribute a large part of my career to an early obsession with Creatures.

Excellent writeup, thanks!

Edit: If you're heading over to GOG to get the games and you aren't familiar with them already, I recommend checking out the super helpful post below by u/tsunamiracle regarding the various versions.

[–]BerserkOlaf 259 points260 points  (17 children)

Did you manage to get the first two games running on Windows 10? According to reviews, there are lots of compatibility issues on those, even the GoG package...

That said, it's like one buck for both right now, maybe I'll try anyway.

I may have the original CDs in a pile of old stuff somewhere, but I have about zero hope they would work out of the box.

[–]cemeterycorner 82 points83 points  (0 children)

Haven't tried, sorry. I'm on an ancient Windows 7 machine and I've only downloaded the Exodus package from GOG (which seems to work fine, but not sure what the Win10 situation would be or how well the earlier ones run).

[–]mglyptostroboides 115 points116 points  (7 children)

Make a Windows XP virtual machine and run it in that.

[–]BerserkOlaf 52 points53 points  (5 children)

That could do the trick. Which VM software would you use?

[–]EvaUnit01 39 points40 points  (3 children)

Virtualbox, QEMU if you're on Linux.

[–]mglyptostroboides 73 points74 points  (0 children)

VirtualBox is probably the best answer for this use case.

[–][deleted]  (4 children)

[deleted]

    [–]BerserkOlaf 21 points22 points  (3 children)

    Really? Awesome!

    Though from what I've read Creatures 3 has fewer compatibility problems than 2. Some even say the first one ran better than 2 for them on modern systems.

    Since it was cheap, I got all 3 anyway. I have never played Creatures 3, so at least I've got something new to try.

    [–][deleted]  (2 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]Tsunamiracle 158 points159 points  (5 children)

      I do want to warn that Creatures 2 is notoriously hard to get running on modern systems. The fan community (much smaller than it used to be, but still extant) has suggested several fixes and workarounds, but even then it can be kind of a crapshoot - personally I couldn't get even this to work, and I haven't had the time or memory space to set up a virtual machine. Still, Albian Years is pretty cheap even when not on sale, and Creatures 1 alone could be worth the price to some people. (Personally, I've found C1 to be a lot more stable to run than C2!)

      Docking Station (which was once a free download that could be played by itself with very limited features, but is now automatically included in Creatures Exodus) also requires a fanmade mod to complete world creation, since the game was designed with the expectation of always being logged into the official DS servers - servers that have been dead for many, many years now*. Thankfully the offline fix is less invasive and more simple than trying to get C2 running.

      (* While there are fanmade servers that restore some of the player-to-player interactions the official servers provided, it's optional and a WIP, and I think you might need the offline fix anyway.)

      EDIT: You might also see a Creatures Village duology for sale. These were intended for an elementary-school-age audience, have the kind of gameplay and aesthetics you'd expect for a young crowd, and are much more simplified and softened than the main games. They're probably not up most readers here's alley. (The good thing about them? I don't think you can hit your Norns in these two games. You can spray them with water, which is... still bad, but not as terrible as spanking being in every other game.)

      [–]arrowsforpens 66 points67 points  (2 children)

      Creatures 2 was notoriously hard to run at the time it came out. I think I spent as much time debugging as I did actually playing.... which was all my time. Plus the default genome that came in the hatchery eggs had some..... serious bugs. Wallbonking, for example. There are improved genomes available now and I think one of those creators (Lis Morris, I think?) ended up hired by the company and that's what's in one of the patches.

      How wild to see a writeup about Creatures! I heard about the norn torture corner of the internet back in the day but I never got involved. I was like, 10, and I just wanted to take care of my little dudes.

      If anybody wants COB/agent recommendations I think I still have all that xD

      [–]NotABearItsAManbear 79 points80 points  (10 children)

      Is the more recent version coded just like the original? I want to play this SOOO badly!

      Edit: Purchased it and it’s downloading now! It’s only 274mb wow

      Edit: Back to say that this is legitimately the most frustrating game I have ever played and it’s due to the fact that there are SO MANY different things you need to do and no in game tutorial

      Edit 2: The highlight has been beating a grendel ruthlessly in order to keep my norns safe, and him saying “grendl dislike god” over and over

      [–]cemeterycorner 26 points27 points  (1 child)

      I really enjoy Exodus (which is basically Creatures 3 + Docking Station). In my opinion it doesn't quite have the charm of the original but I think it has more advanced genetics etc. Loads better than C2, which was a bit.. weird. C3 also has a cool range of gadgets that you can link up to one another to make functional machines - like making doors unlock for certain species only, or an anti-grendel sludge gun.

      C3 is set on a shee spaceship with a load of biomes connected by the bridge and engineering sections of the ship. Loads more to explore than the original. Docking Station added a quasi-multiplayer aspect (basically portals to other users' worlds via an add-on area to the main ship) but the servers aren't active anymore. Not sure how well the fanmade patches have compensated for that, but some of the other redditors in the thread can probably help with that - it's great to see so many Creatures fans here!

      [–]tinaoe 22 points23 points  (0 children)

      Edit 2: The highlight has been beating a grendel ruthlessly in order to keep my norns safe, and him saying “grendl dislike god” over and over

      im sorry but this actually made me cackle, i might need to get the game now

      [–]Simon_Magnus 17 points18 points  (5 children)

      The highlight has been beating a grendel ruthlessly in order to keep my norns safe, and him saying “grendl dislike god” over and over

      I'm surprised OP never mentioned this, but the Grendels are actually just Norns except that whenever they try to hug another creature they punch it instead.

      Those Grendels are trying to love your Norns.

      [–]BritasticUK 41 points42 points  (2 children)

      These are brilliant games. Definitely recommended. It's weird that with all the advances in technology that there isn't really a modern version of this.

      [–]opheliakitty 25 points26 points  (1 child)

      I fantasize about someone remaking Creatures to modern standards. Even something like Dogz/Catz...

      [–]ChogginNurgets 10 points11 points  (0 children)

      Omg I loved the Dogz/Catz games! I remember I could take digital photos (on a floppy disk!) to create custom "play rooms" for my animals. Absolutely loved it. I still remember Pierre and Greta, my first pair 😂

      [–]Izanagi3462 26 points27 points  (0 children)

      Thanks! I'll be getting these I think

      [–]PleasantineOhMine 23 points24 points  (0 children)

      Not 1 or 2, but I just triple checked Exodus. Fixed an error referring to a directory that no longer exists since I redid drives since I last played it, set compatibility of the engine.exe to run in reduced color mode (16 bit) and it booted just fine on my Win 10 64 bit system.

      If all else fails with 1 + 2, go give Exodus a shot.

      [–]Flatline2962 9 points10 points  (0 children)

      Man I lost a lot of time to playing Creatures and never got even into the hormone and chemical systems.

      [–]simimaelian 293 points294 points  (2 children)

      I remember this game omg. I was a little kid and eventually got bored of it because it felt like there was nothing to do. It’s interesting because when they died I felt basically nothing but frustration because I couldn’t figure out what the hell was going on. There were only a few screens to work with, and a lot of it wasn’t able to be interacted with. Eventually I did manage to raise some to old age, but again, it was tedious and boring to a kid who didn’t have the internet at their disposal to learn the intricacies. I had no idea it was such a Thing haha.

      [–]citriclem0n 68 points69 points  (0 children)

      The world in Creatures 1 is probably about 30 screens wide, total.

      [–]Poffinpossum 28 points29 points  (0 children)

      This was me, I couldn’t figure out what to do as a kid! I just used to run it occasionally and get confused, I had no idea it was so deep.

      [–][deleted]  (12 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]reijn 147 points148 points  (6 children)

        I had completely forgot about this game. I was around maybe 11 or 12 when I had it and I literally had no idea what I was doing or even what I was supposed to do. I would play it for a few hours each time and try, try, TRY, and I had no idea and would give up. This was also back in the era of Cats (Catz?) and Dogs (Dogz?) and whatever else, and people would offer up downloads/adoptions and have websites and stuff. My little sister and I had our own page on angelfire offering them up for adoption and even an "anti abuse" website. Man, good times.

        I wonder if I could still find any of it to play. I still have the DVDs for Catz and Dogz somewhere but I think last time I tried to load that up (maybe 10 years ago) it didn't work on my computer anymore.

        [–]OracleOfPlenty 76 points77 points  (3 children)

        Catz and Dogz still have a community and tips on getting the games running on newer computers, if you ever get nostalgic! Definitely went back to these a few times in college and had a good time.

        [–]queenkitsch 22 points23 points  (0 children)

        Man I had Dogz and I’d completely blanked it out. What a weird era.

        [–]mxndalorian 152 points153 points  (1 child)

        If this goes anything like my recent experience with revisiting old games, I’m here to talk when you realize you peaked at 10.

        [–]staoshi500 30 points31 points  (0 children)

        Only game that still slaps for me from my childhood is phantasy star 4..resolution could scale better but man.. What a great story.

        [–]vanishingtact 35 points36 points  (0 children)

        I had it too!! The first game and the second. It was seriously difficult and my norns died out, I think because they were too inbred. Heart failures right after birth. I could only keep them alive by constant defibrillation 😳

        [–]longdognoodle 8 points9 points  (0 children)

        I loved the game as a kid and was so so bad at it. I think I was around 6 years old trying to play it so it was a bit over my head. Constantly had the creatures die on me and bawled my eyes out every time lol

        [–]Lettuphant 453 points454 points  (11 children)

        You can see inside a Creature's brain here, for those who want to see how detailed this little pet neural nets were.

        [–]ekolis 247 points248 points  (7 children)

        They did this in 1996?!

        [–]TheTacoWombat 158 points159 points  (0 children)

        Yes, it was really interesting work at the time. I wish the concept had been a bigger hit - it had the bad luck of running straight into The Sims, which was considered in the same genre.

        [–]__Hello_my_name_is__ 82 points83 points  (4 children)

        Machine learning itself is even older than that, it's an 80's thing.

        It's just that only in the last 10-20 years did we actually get the computation power to actually make use of these concepts beyond extremely simple models. But machine learning as a concept is really damn old.

        [–]ekolis 61 points62 points  (3 children)

        Oh, wow. Imagine inventing an entirely new branch of science, but nothing can be done with it because the technology doesn't exist. That must be how Leonardo da Vinci felt when he invented the helicopter... if only he knew that a few hundred years later we'd have a helicopter on Mars!

        [–]rebcart 40 points41 points  (0 children)

        He wrote a book about how he did this. It’s an excellent read, and IMO he’s a genius at being able to explain a broad swathe of University-level chemistry and biology concepts in just a few short chapters for a lay audience.

        [–]sudosussudio 94 points95 points  (0 children)

        Just started playing old games again and I’m amazed by the complexity of some of them like this and the Petz series. Honestly it feels like modern game creatures are often just fancy databases but these old games had some really complex computer science behind them. I think in the end once studios realized they could make money with clickers and the like, they stopped doing stuff with this level of complexity.

        Some cool stuff about petz:

        https://petzforum.proboards.com/thread/69589/personality-discussion

        https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/247091/GDC_Classic_Multiple_character_interaction_in_Petz_games.php

        [–]onometre 35 points36 points  (0 children)

        how the fuck am I just hearing about this???

        [–]totallythrowawayyy 142 points143 points  (2 children)

        I was absolutely obsessed with this game series as a kid. I still play sometimes! I found them on GOG. Reading the phrase “One Hour Stupidity Syndrome” sent me back.

        [–][deleted] 57 points58 points  (1 child)

        I remember this exact drama. This is messing with me, good god.

        My early memories of the internet are all pretty much exactly from this game too. Like I remember webrings of people sharing mods and stories that I absolutely adored as a kid, but were probably awful in hindsight.

        [–]totallythrowawayyy 32 points33 points  (0 children)

        Personally I was obsessed with getting care-able Grendels in my game. I loved the Boney Grendels especially. All the weird breeding projects were so fun to see.

        [–]nekolain 129 points130 points  (6 children)

        This reminds me of the short story "The Life cycle of Software Objects" by Ted Chiang. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lifecycle_of_Software_Objects

        [–]RCMasterAA 37 points38 points  (0 children)

        Damn you beat me to it including copy pasting the Wikipedia article too. I played Creatures as a kid and just thought it was a cutesy pet training game. Never knew it could be so deep.

        I've read Ted Chiang's short stories before so reading this post brought back so many similarities that I'm wondering if Ted got the idea from the game.

        [–]omnigord 13 points14 points  (0 children)

        Ted Chiang also wrote Story of your life which was the basis for Arrival.

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Story_of_Your_Life

        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrival_(film))

        [–]purplewiggDoes r/hobbydrama count as a hobby? 118 points119 points  (0 children)

        [–]gionnelles 918 points919 points  (36 children)

        This is incredibly fascinating. I don't know how I hadn't heard of this game before. This kind of virtual pet will only get more realistic as modern AI techniques are applied.

        [–]totallythrowawayyy 654 points655 points  (10 children)

        It’s not anywhere near as fun as the Sims but it’s certainly fascinating and ambitious. That said, Norns are gratingly stupid more often than not. Often they’ll starve to death even when you’re wiggling food in their face because they’re distracted by a toy or another Norn.

        [–][deleted] 485 points486 points  (6 children)

        They really were fucking idiots in hindsight. I remember you'd put up that electric fence thing and they'd just bash their head into it for ages because they really wanted to go in the water with the piranhas, and, well, the water's off to the left so I go left.

        I think you had to modify it to give them a shock to get them to understand it was in the way.

        [–]Ridgetop18 512 points513 points  (1 child)

        Congrats, you know now why we use electric fences for cattle. Because they’re stubborn and curious bastards, and are also large enough to just walk through the fence if it doesn’t tell them it’s there.

        [–]Democrab 141 points142 points  (0 children)

        Also why we used to use reasonably large stones to make fences before electricity was common. Even a cow can't easily get around that.

        [–]totallythrowawayyy 75 points76 points  (3 children)

        Mine were obsessed with elevators, particularly in C1. So damn annoying! They'd just go up and down the elevator for hours! And god forbid if some other Norn was playing on the elevator and I had finally gotten my starving idiot to look at a piece of food, but then they heard the DING nearby and got distracted again!

        I remember thinking it was a virtual pet game but that was completely wrong, lol. So many disappointing Norns. But I guess that just makes the ones who are smart and agreeable and actually listen to you that much more special!

        [–]PUBLIQclopAccountant#1 pony stan & Pokémon Go addict 38 points39 points  (2 children)

        They'd just go up and down the elevator for hours!

        I once freaked out my parents when I went missing because I had decided to do exactly this while in the hospital waiting for one of my siblings to be born.

        [–]InsanityPrelude 12 points13 points  (1 child)

        Some of that was actually the genome being busted, at least in Creatures 2- by default they were getting way too much reward chemical from various actions, so they'd gone on to doing something else before it was out of their system, and accidentally learn "this gets me reward" when it really didn't, they were just still processing the reward from before. Something like that, anyway, it's been ages. Fanmade genomes were a little better at not dying.

        C3/DS norns seemed better able to keep themselves alive but less varied in their behavior.

        Edit: and I'm a dumb, OP actually mentioned that issue in the original post (it's the "One Hour Stupidity Syndrome" they described.)

        [–]SoxxoxSmox 434 points435 points  (11 children)

        Check out Gridworld - it's a little evolution simulator you can pick up for like a buck on steam. Creatures have genomes that characterize both their physical bodies and a neural network that dictates their behavior.

        Initially it will just generate completely random genomes, so you'll get creatures without mouths, or who can't move, or stuff like that. If you leave it running long enough, a creature will be generated that can both move and eat, and after that you're in business.

        Leaving the game running and checking back periodically, you can watch them evolve more complex behavior. I've never been patient enough to get past the stage of them learning to avoid obstacles and the lava-coated edges of the map, but supposedly these things can develop extremely complicated behavior. I've heard reports of pack hunting, primitive "language" in the form of pheromone signaling, trapping behavior using a poison creatures can learn to spread on the ground, mimicry of said poison to scare off predators, all evolved 100% from selective pressures on the randomized genome.

        One day I'm gonna buy an AWS instance or something just to run this game and check up on it every few days.

        [–]bobbus_cattus 58 points59 points  (0 children)

        Just grabbed it with some leftover Steam wallet funds! Looks really interesting, thanks for the suggestion :D

        [–]gionnelles 55 points56 points  (1 child)

        I do a lot of work with agent based simulation and emergent behaviours in my job, so I think this is really fascinating.

        [–]SoxxoxSmox 47 points48 points  (0 children)

        You're probably familiar with it already but on the off-chance you're not, you should check out Netlogo. It's a free agent based modeling software, super easy to use and preloaded with all kinds of cool models. I sometimes pull it up just to play with some of the demo models.

        [–]YARGLE_IS_MY_DAD 72 points73 points  (0 children)

        Just got it. I'll be playing it tomorrow if I get a chance 🤞

        [–]beetnemesis 45 points46 points  (1 child)

        Do you play it at all, or just watch?

        [–]SoxxoxSmox 97 points98 points  (0 children)

        It's mostly just a desk toy to sit back and watch, checking in periodically to see how your creatures are evolving. However, you can also take a more active role by manipulating the environment to steer evolution. I often put more fertile patches of land inside rocky terrain with lots of obstacles to create a strong selective pressure for developing pathfinding, for instance. You can grab your favorite creatures and save them/copy them so you can spawn in more if they go extinct or you want to take them to a new environment. You can change the conditions to make the environment more or less hostile.

        [–]MakeThePieBigger 10 points11 points  (0 children)

        There are a couple of other "games" on opposite sides of complexity spectrum:

        There is Gene Pool Swimbots with simple creatures that can just feed,breed and move by wiggling their body parts.

        There is also Artificial Life Real Evolution, which simulates rather complex terrestrial creatures.

        Never heard of Gridworld, so I'm gonna check it out.

        [–]atomfullerene 105 points106 points  (11 children)

        You would think so, but no one has really remade a game quite like this. I would totally play it if they did though

        [–]Albertatastic 66 points67 points  (1 child)

        Grandroids was Kickstarted by Steve Grand and is an attempt at a modern Creatures-like game. Unfortunately it's been in development since 2011 with little to no info ever released to the public on the status. Sometimes you get a peep in the subreddit that dev work is ongoing but that's about it.

        Too bad really! I love this type of game. Gridworld is a bit too much of an abstract simulation for me, and games like Vilmonic tend to be too simplistic. Maybe one day...

        Edit: Based on info in the subreddit it seems like Grandroids is still being worked on, though progress is very slow and all updates are private.. here's a video of the (apparently?) most recent release version from 2019 for backers. FWIW I really want Steve to succeed here! Fully realized, this could be a really cool game.

        [–]dragon-storyteller 137 points138 points  (5 children)

        Yeah, unfortunately this style of game died out in the late 2000s when emergent gameplay fell out of vogue in favour of more controlled experiences, and the more inventive indie devs rarely have the resources to make a game like this. (or to market it, for that matter. For all we know there might be an incredibly obscure modern version of this hidden somewhere in the endless depths of Steam.)

        [–]atomfullerene 49 points50 points  (0 children)

        At least we still have dwarf fortress, although the emergent gameplay there is more fort or world scale

        [–]EvaUnit01 43 points44 points  (2 children)

        Gridworld, apparently

        [–]Skyy-High 95 points96 points  (0 children)

        Unfortunately Gridworld is a pure simulation. The “creatures” are almost pixels, the environment is a black square. It seems very interesting but it’s not at all the same as Creatures, which is basically advanced Tamagotchi.

        [–]dragon-storyteller 37 points38 points  (0 children)

        That's more of a Darwinian evolution simulator. Those are cool too, but it's a very different hands-off experience, compared to Creatures letting you you mold and nurture the creatures yourself to prepare them for survival.

        [–]MisanthropeX 15 points16 points  (2 children)

        I mean... Dwarf Fortress has all these systems and more, just rather than doe-eyed baby monkeys it's industrious, drunken psychopathic dwarves. They have genetics and family lines and mental illness too, but they also have !!fun!!

        [–]nacmar 9 points10 points  (1 child)

        I'm really looking forward to that UI overhaul update.

        [–]GermanBlackbot 409 points410 points  (9 children)

        That's when the Norn breeders discovered Slave hadn't just been traumatised. She had been genetically modified to constantly produce alcohol in her bloodstream, and their (foolishly not backed up) heritage pedigree bloodlines were now contaminated with drunken Norns who staggered about and passed out continually before succumbing to alcoholism related diseases.

        Okay, this killed me. That seems like something right out of Dwarf Fortress.

        By the way, the games are available at GoG. At a discount right now, too.

        [–]semiseriouslyscrewed 120 points121 points  (6 children)

        That thought went through my head “it’s like Dorf Fortress for less dysfunctional people”

        Given the staggering complexity of Dwarf Fortress’ world and systems, I wonder if you can’t get similarly emergent behaviour by modding in more independence to Dorfs.

        [–]ahcrapusernametaken 72 points73 points  (4 children)

        I don’t think it would manifest in the actual behaviour of the dwarves

        But it would totally manifest in their thoughts

        I had a dwarf who regretted marrying someone and having a child and was constantly conflicted by that

        became even more amusing when her kid got attacked by a random rock elemental and she decapitated it with her pick axe

        [–]ZennofskaIn the real world, only the central banks get to kill goblins. 44 points45 points  (0 children)

        Their thoughts can somewhat influence their behaviour, if only by making them easier to succumb to stress. I was part of a failed community fortress that had several accidents involving were-creatures that left over 750 people dead. The stress of moving dead people and body parts was too much to handle for most dwarves, turning them insane and leading to more dead dwarves.

        In the end, the only dwarves that were left were those that were so emotionally stunted that they couldn't feel anything anymore. They were completely fine doing nothing but transporting body parts to the atom smasher and inscribing slabs for decades.

        [–]AbrahamLure 70 points71 points  (1 child)

        I had no idea Creatures was this complex. No wonder I've never had much luck just blindly jumping into the game and expecting things to work out.

        I would pay good money to see an in depth write-up on people's experiences playing Creatures.

        [–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

        Maybe have a look at this.

        Not exactly what you're looking for maybe, but an insight. The C2 science section in particular is kinda interesting.

        [–]lializzy 61 points62 points  (4 children)

        I never see Creatures get enough love and recognition on the internet, so I was so excited to see this here! Thanks so much for the write up. I was just a kid when Slave was available for download, and unfortunately wasn’t skilled enough to treat her medically or to understand her brain chemistry.

        With that said, as a kid I was absolutely fascinated by running Wolfling Runs. It was a fantastic way to learn about evolution - learning about it at school, I’d certainly picked up the preconception that evolution had a ‘point’ to it (e.g. all mutations that developed and lasted were for a certain purpose). Wolfling Runs demonstrated to my young self the true nature of evolution was random and how mutations often only lasted because they didn’t cause any adverse effect in Norns, rather than the exceptionally rare cases where a genetic mutation actually provided an advantage. The pidgin language unmonitored Norns developed being passed down from generation to generation by those who learned to communicate in respect of essential foodstuffs, water etc was also absolutely fascinating. After a few generations I wouldn’t have a clue what was being said, but could see Norns conversing with and understanding each other well.

        It’s a real shame that this genre has largely fallen out of fashion. I buried hundreds - if not thousands - of hours into the Creatures franchise as a kid and don’t regret it at all. Perhaps it’s time to fish it out of my GOG folder and play again...

        [–]PUBLIQclopAccountant#1 pony stan & Pokémon Go addict 32 points33 points  (3 children)

        Wolfling Runs demonstrated to my young self the true nature of evolution was random and how mutations often only lasted because they didn’t cause any adverse effect in Norns

        Evolution being described as "survival of the fittest" gives so many incorrect impressions to students. The biggest, strongest, and smartest creatures are the first ones to go extinct as soon as their habitat is perturbed because they have much higher caloric needs than a thoroughly mediocre species who can survive on dog poop if need be. Being perfectly optimized is only an advantage so long as the habitat remains static.

        [–][deleted]  (2 children)

        [deleted]

          [–]ToHallowMySleep 230 points231 points  (10 children)

          Wow, this is a blast from the past. I actually worked on one of the Creatures games, I did some early work on a Mac port. I think it was Creatures 2, it was in C++. I can't remember much, it was after all 25 years ago, my second job out of university.

          It probably was the most complex of the games out there when it came to "life mechanics" compared to others at the time (notably Black & White), the emergent mechanics that came out of that were very interesting. I won't pretend to be a master of understanding that kind of thing.

          More on topic, the question raised of "if they’re just fake creatures, is it ok to torture them?" is an interesting one - in my opinion, it isn't about whether they're creatures or not. Rather, the question is about whether one enjoys torturing things, whether they're virtual, sentient, or not. Be it virtual creatures, plants, ants, animals, children or adults, if you get a rush of positive energy by inflicting pain, or even just being violent, against these things, then that is the real issue.

          Create, rather than destroy.

          [–]churlishcurls 32 points33 points  (2 children)

          Oh gods, I love the Black and White games too. I still have my disc for B&W 2, but I'd really like to try my hand at the original now that I'm an adult who can ostensibly strategize. I kinda miss those weird polygonal worshippers.

          Wholeheartedly agree with you on the violent inclination viewpoint.

          [–]ToHallowMySleep 26 points27 points  (1 child)

          I'll say you need a lot more patience than you think, to weather games as they were in those days. I go back to some from the 1980s and I can barely make it past the loading sequence.

          We're definitely spoilt now, and nostalgia does work but only gets you so far. Having said that I am very much looking forward to casting an adult eye over the Kings Quest series, more of Wizardry, Zork, etc. The text adventures and Sierra early games were wonderful storytellers.

          [–]ahcrapusernametaken 78 points79 points  (1 child)

          that’s honestly my issue with it

          how realistic the creatures act here isn’t really the issue for me, but it’s just

          I feel like most humans have it programmed in our heads to not want to hear the yelps and squeals of something that sounds/looks like a human in danger

          So wanting to hear that just feels off to me.

          Plus torture is just boring as well

          [–]mildlyexpiredyoghurt 19 points20 points  (0 children)

          For someone to come up with a game with such complex systems, seemingly as a side-project, seems like savant or mad-genius levels of smart. Even if you didn't talk to the guy himself, did you form an opinion about the guy after having to dig around his code for a bit?

          [–]ekolis 8 points9 points  (0 children)

          Well that explains why I always lose at Space Empires. I spend too much time building up my own planets and not enough time nuking the crap out of the other players' planets...

          [–]spiralmojo 395 points396 points  (18 children)

          Oh I had this game - and as a person who eventually wanted kids, it unsettled the living hell out of me.

          I thought it would be like...the little tamagotchi-style Chao babies from Sonic on dream cast (totally forget when that came out, but that was the expectation I had, at least).

          Instead I was forced to spank things that strayed from instruction, consider behavioural structures for powerless creatures, and a whole lot of other God-power-trip feeling shit that realllly bugged me. It was harder than expected, and super eugenicsy.

          It wasn't even like training a dog or cat, for example, where an outside world would judge your efforts eventually. There was only one power and it was you and it tested you as a person because you kinda hated the ones who would die because you'd fucked something up while desperately trying to teach them to be safe and good and not screw them up.

          I made it no more than a week or so before refusing to play it anymore.

          Had forgotten all about this, although I bet I still have the damn install disc somewhere.

          (Sorry for the drama comment, I just didn't expect the recollection of this game to remind me that it felt gross to play it. Fuck that game.)

          [–]flophouse_grimes 114 points115 points  (7 children)

          I can see why it would feel like this. Something I've noticed in some games with training systems is the negative reinforcement and the way it's sometimes framed as being for their own good. Even though that's not how it really works in real life and the more we know about the psychology of animals and children, the more we find out that surprise, surprise, it can be more damaging than helpful.

          I had a similar feeling playing Black & White when I was a kid. It's a god game where you get a giant creature and you're supposed to punish it when it's doing stuff you don't want it to do. Punishing it is basiclaly hitting it and they end up with bruises. It's the worst.

          I know this probably makes me seem soft but fuck that, not only does that make little sense in terms of the impact, it feels like a lazy workaround for "realistic" training. If they're supposed to be like young kids, training should be more involved than hitting them when they fuck up.

          [–]ufott 44 points45 points  (5 children)

          Positive punishment, not negative reinforcement

          [–]Gemini_Incognito 66 points67 points  (5 children)

          I remember the chao babies!!

          Friend almost had me convinced I just imagined them. But there was a game like that, I knew it.

          [–]Rydralain 16 points17 points  (2 children)

          I think there are versions of that game that have had the chaos removed, so that might explain it.

          [–]JonRivers 44 points45 points  (1 child)

          How the hell could someone try to convince you you imagined them!? Just Google chao garden and you get thousands of images hahaha!! I adored the chao garden as a kid, so I sure as hell didn't imagine it.

          [–]whollyfictional 192 points193 points  (2 children)

          If you look after your Norn as you would a two year old child, you won’t go far wrong.

          Please do not slap a two year old child to teach them what to avoid.

          [–]PM_ME_YOUR_NAIL_CLIP 9 points10 points  (0 children)

          My dad slapped me so god dammit I earned the right to slap my child.

          /s

          [–]Terranrp2 170 points171 points  (21 children)

          Oh man, this sounds like it was a heck of a game. I'd rather play this over Sims. I love the idea of sub-systems so complex that telekinetic ball catching creatures just...emerge, on accident no less!

          The torturing part is disturbing but completely expected. I wasn't much so Sims torturing, it was pretty boring. What was far more interesting was using a chemical laboratory to give yourself some goofy side effect and send them to work or a social gathering while invisible or as a monster. It's also why I loved the scientist career in Sims 4, so many silly toys to build!

          All that being said, I can understand wanting to see what chaos can occur when you throw a wrench in things to see what happens, especially when no actual pain or discomfort is real, only simulated, and especially-especially when you're not anticipating any real-world consequences. People may not have liked what the Naval Officer did, but death threats are ridiculous. Also, getting fan mail from people over the top when torturing would really weird me out. In the end, people need to remember that everything represented is just a collection of 1's and 0's, though that doesn't completely assuage regret in a game where I lost a soldier because of carelessness or rebooting from a previous save because I said something in an RPG that caused a character to be disappointed in me, etc.

          It sure would be nice if that game came to Steam or something. Maybe even a remaster. I would love to tinker with an AI system that complex!

          [–][deleted] 127 points128 points  (7 children)

          Oh man, this sounds like it was a heck of a game.

          It really was, my god. I was obsessed with Creatures 2 as a kid. Obviously they weren't really alive, but I remember being able to do things like poke specific neurons and make them think they were walking uphill. And just the atmosphere, god. This weird sort of idyllic hatchery area and the surroundings and my memories are way clearer than they should be. I remember having like generations and generations of the things and feeling incredibly attached to all of them.

          I almost wanna see if I can get it working again.

          [–]Terranrp2 37 points38 points  (4 children)

          Ohh, I'm envious! This sounds like one of those landmark games, where 30 years later, it still has a certain magic to it.

          [–][deleted] 32 points33 points  (1 child)

          Literally watching a video of it now and having a nostalgia heart attack, my god. It's crazy how well I still remember it.

          [–]Smantie 66 points67 points  (8 children)

          It's on GOG! They have all three! I don't know if they have Docking Station though, which was an add on for Creatures 3 and was online - although as I'm sure you can guess, the servers have long since been shut down. Plus websites with COBs, custom norn breeds, and norns are still up and running, and there's even a discord server these days. There's another race not mentioned in this post (so must have been introduced in Creatures 2 - I never played the first one) called Ettins who are obsessed with technology and would steal machine parts. Very annoying when you've spent ages building a machine that will automatically dispense cheese when it detects a norn, or one that will sound an alarm (which you can train norns to run away from) then fire a (toy) gun when it detects a grendel. I used to spend ages building things like that, only to have a 'helpful' ettin grab the relay module and take it to join the stash.

          Also not mentioned is the gene splicer. Young, innocent me was HORRIFIED when I first used it and realised it killed both of the creatures you put in it in order to create their spliced hybrid offspring. Without user created content it's the only way to mix norns/ettins/grendels but the resulting creation was always infertile, IIRC.

          As for the chemicals and genetics...you could inject the creatures with anything, there's a dedicated medical bay in Creatures 3 (it's set on a spaceship) so you can cure and cause all types of things, including pseudo IVF by forcing a female norn into the fertile stage of her cycle.

          Just beware if you download and creatures/breeds which are advertised as being fertile...they tend to be genetically modified or trained into getting a very high reward drive from mating ('kiss-popping'), have a high sex drive, and are always at peak fertility. In other words, they're unstoppable!

          Please give it a go!

          [–][deleted] 40 points41 points  (2 children)

          Also not mentioned is the gene splicer. Young, innocent me was HORRIFIED when I first used it and realised it killed both of the creatures you put in it in order to create their spliced hybrid offspring.

          Holy shit yes. I fenced that entire area off very quickly. Nothing was allowed in lol

          [–]Smantie 22 points23 points  (0 children)

          What a way to find out that splicing and cloning are completely opposite to each other!

          [–]ChickadeeGauze 19 points20 points  (1 child)

          I don't know if they have Docking Station though, which was an add on for Creatures 3 and was online

          Creatures Exodus says it's "a recompilation of Creatures 3 and Docking Station" and "the multiplayer features of the Creature Docking Station are no longer available."

          [–]Smantie 17 points18 points  (0 children)

          Ah, thank you! Docking Station was equal parts amazing and frustrating. I remember the first time I got sent a norn on DS - it was florescent greeny/yellow and could only walk backwards. Then I found out about Tortured Norns and was far too scared to ever allow another in! And the rooms were just too awkwardly sized and shaped to be much use, plus my mum always wanted to use the phone so I could only be online for about 20 minutes a day. I think child me just didn't quite understand how it was supposed to work!

          [–]Sauberflote 602 points603 points  (68 children)

          The capacity for humans to immediately and near-irreversibly personify just about anything with vaguely relatable behaviors or characteristics, no matter how far abstracted from real life, never ceases to astound and amaze me.

          It has me fully convinced that we'll never think twice when artificial intelligence eventually becomes sentient enough to ask for equal rights, lol.

          [–][deleted]  (19 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]LtDachs 205 points206 points  (7 children)

            I think this story illustrates that there'll be at least two very different camps. Some people will find it very easy to treat AI/robots as "people" - like how folks already personify and get attached to things like Alexa speakers or Roombas. Other people will eagerly "abuse" intelligent machines precisely because they aren't people but you can get a reaction out of fucking with them. Gonna be really interesting seeing how the case law evolves and if in my lifetime there'll ever be a moment when the crime of vandalising a robot or hacking an AI moves from property damage to assaulting a sentient being.

            [–]AFakeName 93 points94 points  (1 child)

            Who's responsible when an AI blows themself up in times square because of human mistreatment?

            Is an example of a question I'd rather not be responsible for answering.

            [–]PUBLIQclopAccountant#1 pony stan & Pokémon Go addict 19 points20 points  (0 children)

            I was going to use the example of an airplane AI who gets a real bad case of the Mondays after being berated for a weather delay one too many times but you beat me to it.

            [–]avantgardeaclue 52 points53 points  (2 children)

            I thank Siri sometimes and I feel attacked

            [–]MrWobbles 49 points50 points  (0 children)

            Alexa / Echo has a feature you can turn on where it listens more after you give it a command. Some may be worried about privacy or whatever but it lets me say thank you and she responds. I like that.

            [–]whatlauradid 9 points10 points  (0 children)

            I always do too but I feel it’s just polite lol.

            [–]whollyfictional 138 points139 points  (9 children)

            Look at how people care for their pets, a lot of humans are kiiiiiinda more fond of and protective over animals than they are other people.

            [–]KarlBarx2 87 points88 points  (5 children)

            That's the point, though. Once machines cross the line from pet to person, all that racism is going to come roaring to the surface.

            [–]p_iynx 153 points154 points  (1 child)

            I mean, a lot of people who “love” their pets use violent training methods because all they care about is their pet listening. And pretty much all people who love their pets don’t see them as equals (for obvious reasons).

            Caring about something beneath you is easier than caring about something that has its own consciousness and complex thought process. Pets are easily forgiven because, for the most part, when they act out it’s our fault for being confusing with commands or not properly training them, or it’s just something natural/instinctive. It’s not their fault. It’s not a conscious decision they make to be selfish and hurt us or something.

            If other animals were as complex and intelligent as humans, our instinctive tribalism would probably kick in. I mean, look at how we treat pigs and captive dolphins, and they’re among the smartest animals. A good portion of us would trust them less than other humans, and would always choose to put “our” well being first. When a group is no longer just an asset, it becomes a threat, at least to a lot of people.

            Tribalism is a huge issue. Just look at how people treat refugees, asylum seekers, immigrants, etc. Sure, many people are happy to help. But just as many people view them with suspicion, and at least in the US, half our lawmakers want to limit the number of them that we help or allow into the country. That’s with other human beings, so I don’t have a lot of hope for how we’d treat something that’s not even organic life, like an AI.

            [–]flophouse_grimes 22 points23 points  (0 children)

            People don't mistreat pigs and captive dolphins because they're among the smartest animals and because of tribalism. They do it because they still don't believe what we know nowadays about how smart these animals are and because it's "useful" to ignore that.

            > Pets are easily forgiven because, for the most part, when they act out it’s our fault for being confusing with commands or not properly training them, or it’s just something natural/instinctive.

            That's not true as a whole, like you said in your first paragraph, many people use violent training methods. They do it because they just don't see that when their pets act out it can be the result of instinct or bad training so they try to override that by force.

            [–]iansweridiots 154 points155 points  (8 children)

            You say that like it's a bad thing! We are social creatures, getting attached to things is a feature, not a bug. Honestly, I think it's worrying when people don't.

            [–]Sauberflote 35 points36 points  (0 children)

            Oh, I meant it more neutrally - I just find the concept itself fascinating. That we’re so intrinsically pro-social as a species that we bond so easily with just about anything is pretty wild to me.

            [–]vtipoman 37 points38 points  (6 children)

            So, uh.. is the community still alive? Any recent developments in the series? Any other interesting ALife games out there?

            [–]Smantie 23 points24 points  (3 children)

            There's a discord server and all the old COBs, player made breeds, and adoptable creatures can still be downloaded, but recent developments? Sadly no.

            [–]Disgruntled_Rabbit 10 points11 points  (2 children)

            I see there's a small handful of discord servers, is one better than another?

            [–]Smantie 18 points19 points  (1 child)

            The Norn Nebula - they also have links to related/specialised servers and a list of the best Creatures content websites. Seems pretty active too!

            [–]Disgruntled_Rabbit 8 points9 points  (0 children)

            Thanks!

            [–]SeanTheTranslator 35 points36 points  (0 children)

            I can’t help but laugh at the entire story.

            “Psychopaths enslave and traumatize artificial monkey elves and then give them to regular people, to which the people respond with extremely detailed death threats.”

            This is platinum-tier Hobby Drama. First post here I’ve ever saved. Bravo.

            [–]Gasarocky 406 points407 points  (63 children)

            It is just incredibly ironic to see people be so angry at someone screwing with data made to look cute so as to threaten that actual person with death and torture.

            I mean threatening anyone that way over insignificant shit is always insane but this isn't even like twitter drama between humans, it's literally data.

            [–][deleted] 193 points194 points  (3 children)

            I mean you saw a lot of the same happen with Tomagotchis. People start to care about the little dumb animal they're caring for, even if they understand that it's just a computer program (not that that distinction may remain for much longer). And when you see people abusing the siblings of the cute cuddly little guy you've spent so much time on you get angry. And on the internet if a group gets "angry" then some of that group will get very angry. And lots of them are just straight up psychopaths who try to hyperbolize and exaggerate everything they say or do online to get the most visceral, extreme emotional response possible

            [–]kewpie-- 49 points50 points  (2 children)

            The Tamagotchi community is full of drama (speaking as a collector), but tbf the drama isn't usually about people being mean to them for fun - by and large we don't really care about that, and there's a pretty wide consensus it can be funny. The drama is basically all about buying and selling.

            I remember a write-up being posted here a while ago but I didn't think it was a particularly accurate representation of the community.

            [–]papayass69 26 points27 points  (1 child)

            The fact that people are okay with sending death threats to a Real Living Human over a computer game says more about their own morals

            Like yeah feel however you want about this guy making a torture sim but at the end of the day it's not like he's really hurting anyone

            [–]knightwave 28 points29 points  (0 children)

            See also: people posting vids of themselves harassing their villagers in Animal Crossing by beating them with nets or forcing them to fall into holes has definitely caused some drama. Some people take their cute little virtual animals very seriously.

            [–]ReadWriteSign[🍰] 147 points148 points  (28 children)

            I cried reading Hunger Games, when Rue died, and you could equally say that's just ink on a page. People get attached to fictional beings. The more so in a case like this where they're viewed as pets, something to be responsible for. That said, I agree that death and torture threats are too far, but I can see where they're coming from.

            [–]Gasarocky 128 points129 points  (26 children)

            Yeah I don't have any problem with people getting attached to characters, I have cried or had other intense emotional reactions to media, but in the end they are still characters/data, and it's not something I would ever get so attached to as to treat it as being more important than a fellow human.

            That said, I don't think screwing around just to get a rise out of people for the hell of it is any good either, but the super intense reaction some had is far worse.

            [–]ReadWriteSign[🍰] 26 points27 points  (0 children)

            Fair. Agreed, on all counts.

            [–]Feshtof 47 points48 points  (1 child)

            Some real human beings enjoy seeing others get upset or sad or suffer anguish at their exploitation of those other peoples emotional connections with those things.

            I can absolutely see people getting mad at another person who is getting their jollies off on inflicting real suffering on real people, while hiding it as “lol I’m just fake slapping a fake creature” while completely ignoring the fact that they are doing it while intentionally showing it to people they know it will upset, to derive pleasure from their discomfort.

            Like, you go to a forum where people are obviously caring about and for these little bits of code, you didn’t have to go there and subject them to obviously real discomfort.

            “Oh, their reaction was over the top.”

            “Did you go there trying to upset them?”

            “Yes”

            “When it was clear you were upsetting them, did you escalate your behavior?”

            “Yes”

            “But the problem is their response to you hurting them and then escalating that hurt, not you hurting them for your own amusement?”

            [–]PixelBlock 22 points23 points  (0 children)

            People being anonymously violent to others over stupid shit is a tale as old as time.

            [–]Lenora_O 34 points35 points  (0 children)

            I loved that game!!! I was too young to understand the complexity though. This post was eye-opening to say the least. I just thought hatching babies and teaching them words was fun...and even I could tell that it was completely unique. The world felt real and complete.

            I never managed to get my Norns past the area they can go to via the sky lift though.

            And the number of times my Norns traveled back and forth on that thing, using their own free will to say 'NO! THIS WAY!!!'...my tiny brain was not patient enough. I would be raging, red and sweaty in the face, trying not to scream at the screen cuz then dad would make me get off the computer.

            It was still a LOT of fun.

            Only other games that came even close were SimAnt, SimTower, and the original The Sims.

            I can only imagine how cool it was for people who understood all the graphs and chemical stuff. I had no idea there was an online aspect.

            Creatures was amazing, and the genuine magic of Alife has never been matched again. Not by The Sims, not by Spore, not by anyone.

            [–]Tsunamiracle 32 points33 points  (1 child)

            Fun Aside 1: Docking Station was the first and only entry in the series that allowed players' worlds to interact with each other in real time. If the portals were open, any one of your creatures on board might decide to take a trip through one and warp to another player's spaceship. Based on anecdotes I've heard, this occasionally resulted in creatures engineered or trained to be as violent as possible showing up and causing trouble. Worst case scenario, they'd stick around long enough to pass that onto the host's population, too.

            Fun Aside 2: The series had ports on the Playstation 1 and GameBoy Advance. These games vastly simplified some of the signature features of the series, to the point where biochemistry and genetics are almost non-existant. Some of the fans of the main games were unimpressed by this, since it took away the most intriguing aspects about the series.

            Despite this, I vaguely recall the PSX game's manual insisting that these Norns were absolutely on the level of artificial life, and that I the player should consider them living beings. It... kinda freaked the nine-year-old me out to be given that kind of responsibility so suddenly. "Sobbing after playing the game" kind of freak out.

            For that reason I didn't get into the main series while it was still thriving, but it was fun to watch at a distance when people talked about how the game mechanics worked. By that time the worst of the Norn Torture fighting had stopped, but there was still judgement cast upon those who made Norns suffer. Interestingly, this didn't always extend to other creatures in the game who were, by the game's definitions, just as sentient as Norns and felt all the same joys and pains; killing and abusing Grendels tended to be more acceptable among players, especially if players could claim they were just protecting their Norns.

            Of course, Grendels had their own dedicated defenders and pointed out that the Grendels had been intentionally designed with unfair disadvantages that designated them the villains of the game. For example, their eggs clutches are located in food-scarce environments filed with diseases, toxic plants, and sometimes even radiation! And there were players who cared about all the main species and wanted them to coexist happily and healthily. It's just... given the choice between a cute fuzzy animal and a mean reptilian, some fans certainly had a preference on who was the "better" of the two. (To be fair, the game's own story, scant as it was, constantly pushed that Norn = good and Grendel = bad, to the point where an entire group of characters were shunned from their home planet because they liked Grendels better.)

            The current community seems to be a lot more mellow now, perhaps because of age or size. The deaths of Norns and other creatures is seen as a normal part of testing custom maps and genomes, or doing a challenge run. There's a fairly popular mod (and subsequent mods of a mod) that intentionally creates a scrambled genome, frequently resulting in terminally ill creatures or even ones dead-on-arrival. The lore of the mod is that the player is supposed to be running a rescue service, but I've also seen people use it just to see what kind of disaster pops out. There's even an easter egg in the story mode where if you brag that you intentionally killed the creature, your handler is so disgusted that the mod uninstalls itself from your current save. Nothing stops you from immediately putting it back in, of course. Or even just lying and saying the creature's doing perfectly fine, send in another!

            There are also the fans who tried to overhaul Norns' brains to function better within the game's limitations, and changed the biochemistry to simulated detailed circulatory and immune systems and even body temperature regulation... and then they also made their creations trip balls whenever they ate certain custom-made berries.

            Of course, someone whose focus is primarily tinkering with the code is likely to have very different playstyle than someone who wants to handraise a thriving population of Norns. And I can't personally speak to what the early Creatures community was like, I do wonder how many people genuinely believed that the game had achieved artificial life, and all that implied about how to treat them.

            [–]citriclem0n 9 points10 points  (0 children)

            IIRC there was a hardcoded bit in the engine of Creatures 1 so that grendels could not tickle other creatures, whenever they tried it would instead result in a punch instead. This ensured that Norns would quickly become scared of them.

            [–]gliesedragon 218 points219 points  (8 children)

            Interesting. Y'know, thinking about it, the "every player of this game must act as if the characters in it are actual people with moral significance" mindset is kind of weird. I mean, I tend to play games with moral choices on the kind end by default, but the people who are interested in being cruel, especially when they're creative about it, are a lot of fun to watch/read about. It's a game, so as long as you aren't hurting real people*, do whatever you want.

            And, I have to say, on a design level, Creatures is one of those games that's just fascinating to me. It's weirdly lifelike and unnervingly clever in concept and execution, and I've got to wonder what a game with similar goals built now would look like. I mean, it was built to run on mid-90s hardware: imagine what someone could do with modern limits and neural net building blocks and such.

            *And yeah, there're some things someone could do in a computer game that I'd definitely consider harming people: being a bigoted twerp or acting like one as an ill-conceived "joke" is the big example I can think of at the moment.

            [–]alteraego 93 points94 points  (5 children)

            It’s interesting when a game or scenario in a game like that pops up. Creatures, Undertale, a scene in Dragon Age 3 (i think?) about one of the companions, etc.

            Meanwhile Simmers are taking ladders out of pools, Animal Crossing players are redlining their islands so only certain species will live there, and so on.

            A lot of these games have the same type of fanbase/audience, so what about the game design causes such stark differences in the morality that is applied to the characters within?

            [–]gliesedragon 58 points59 points  (2 children)

            Hmm. I don't know for sure, but I feel like it's got a lot to do with framing. In Creatures,, or more story based games, the player character has less direct control, the characters likely feel a bit more complex, and so the illusion of life is stronger. Simpler entities and characters probably push the window of "acceptable cruelty" further, as it's easier to just think of them as code or things that react entertainingly to your actions.

            [–][deleted] 70 points71 points  (0 children)

            They were also very helpless and you felt incredibly responsible for them. Sims will get out of the pool on their own if you let them, because they're explicitly programmed to. These things might be more interested in some dumb fish than air.

            [–]QustoMar 22 points23 points  (0 children)

            Yeah The Sims has less intense personality mechanisms though it depends on which part of the serious you’re playing.

            Like in The Sims 2, the sims had a considerable amount of autonomy and personality, like they all interacted with other sims in different ways, had memories, hobbies, interests. What I like the most about The Sims 2 is that sims would generate long-term and short-term wants and fears, and you as the player instead of just deciding yourself everything that will happen in the life of your sim, you could play entirely based on their wants. Instead of just being like, you will get this job then marry this person then have this many number of children, you could see what wants they would generate. Maybe they will never want to get a job, maybe they will never want to have children, maybe they will never want to do their homework and improve their school, etc. These wants would be based off their personality, aspiration, current circumstances, etc. You could really give your sims varied lives and as the player instead of deciding their life path, you just accomplish what your sims have in mind. Of course, it’s still not anything on the level of Creatures lol, but it has some strengths.

            Then an entry in the series like The Sims 4 is almost completely just a dollhouse. There, the ‘wants’ system has been near-abandoned and every sim essentially has the same personality. They also do almost nothing on their own decision, for anything to happen in the ‘story’ of your sim families it has to be decided by the player. It feels like their personalities have no impact whatsoever.

            Sorry that I just ended up ranting about The Sims oops.

            [–][deleted] 125 points126 points  (0 children)

            Sims are extremely scripted. The norns (and grendels honestly which could be trained and socialized if you felt like putting the effort in,) were not. It sounds like a trivial difference, but they really did learn the stuff you taught them. They'd all end up with weird individual quirks because of how their decision making was done. They'd form preferences based on experiences, and no two were exactly alike.

            It's hard to describe how incredibly lifelike the neural net approach made them feel to someone who never played the game. But I'd honestly never compare it to the sims, especially not for a child. I played the fuck out of this when I was like 7-8, and I remember being so sad when they died.

            Even now it honestly still kinda hits, though a bit part of that's probably just nostalgia.

            [–]Fiery1Phoenix 82 points83 points  (1 child)

            Yeah frankly i could see a game like creatures popping up on the appstore nowadays so maybe someone could try to update it

            [–]SplurgyAMay/June '21 People's Choice[S] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

            They announced Creatures 4 for iOS and Android in 2011, but unfortunately it got shelved.

            [–]Riverhailed 66 points67 points  (1 child)

            A man gifted me this game in a stack of blank cds when i was in first grade. The only identifying feature of the disc was “kreachers” scribbled across the top and i could never find out any more about it but i was a big fan of the gremlins franchise so i used to pretend like i was in the gremlins movies and my norn was gizmo.

            The grendels were a fucking terrifying discovery

            [–]FactoidFinder 20 points21 points  (8 children)

            I can’t help but compare this to rimworld, where you can harvest organs, enslave raiders, and do all that messed up stuff. But while rimworld kinda embraces the messed up parts of the game, the Norns people shy away from it.

            Super cool story!

            Also a cool note: in rimworld you can mod the game to basically make it Norns but with people. I can kinda understand the Anti AntiNorn people, but in a game where things are truly limitless... people are gonna test the limits of fucked up.

            Also doesn’t mean that the AntiNorn guy is a terrible person, he just plays a game a certain way. I don’t feel any anger towards rimworld players who are playing cannibals or drug farm runs, in fact, I do the exact same thing.

            [–]enderverse87 17 points18 points  (2 children)

            The absolute worst thing about this, is that people will definitely do this when we get cheap genetic engineering tools.

            [–]PM-ME-BAKED-GOODS 17 points18 points  (1 child)

            Great write up, super interesting. Honestly I can't imagine being so cruel, I would feel terrible. I can't even pick the mean dialogue options in RPGs.

            [–]voidaquariums 17 points18 points  (0 children)

            what th FUCK bro i feel bad when i choose the wrong dialogue option in stardew valley or accidentally whack my pokemon in gen6/7 and this dude tortures them and has fun?????? good writeup op im traumatized now

            [–]Smashing71 201 points202 points  (13 children)

            That's when the Norn breeders discovered Slave hadn't just been traumatised. She had been genetically modified to constantly produce alcohol in her bloodstream, and their (foolishly not backed up) heritage pedigree bloodlines were now contaminated with drunken Norns who staggered about and passed out continually before succumbing to alcoholism related diseases.

            This is what I miss most about old school trolls - creativity. Nowadays someone rolls up and posts "H1tl3r d1d n0th1ng wr0ng!!!!11! u g0t tr0ll4d". Back in the day? This shit? The level of creativity to create a project that the most hardcore of the "good guy" Norns would take on, and include a poison pill that eats their hard work... just lovely.

            [–]KRKavak 123 points124 points  (2 children)

            The game ecosystems that allowed for things like the house full of slimes in Ultima Online and the player responsible demanding ransoms in exchange for not releasing them like an actual supervillain are basically gone.

            [–]aabicus 70 points71 points  (0 children)

            house full of slimes in Ultima Online and the player responsible demanding ransoms in exchange for not releasing them

            Your comment made me look for it, what an amazing story. I love video games that are robust enough to handle this sort of nonsense.

            [–]Sithoid 85 points86 points  (5 children)

            1990s sandbox gamers: shocked to learn about That One Guy who dared abuse the mechanics

            2020s sandbox gamers: oh, a new mechanic, here's 100 ways how it will definitely get abused

            [–][deleted]  (4 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]ZennofskaIn the real world, only the central banks get to kill goblins. 19 points20 points  (1 child)

              Well, that one actually left Toady so horrified that he lowered the values of merperson bones in a patch.

              [–]Dovahkiin1337 17 points18 points  (0 children)

              You know I was actually planning to make an AntiNorn post here eventually but I don't mind being beaten to it, you did a better job describing the situation than I ever could.

              [–]Salzikrum 48 points49 points  (1 child)

              This whole saga is why some future AI is going to decide that we’re too dangerous to allow to exist.

              [–]SnapshillBot 15 points16 points  (1 child)

              Snapshots:

              1. [Video Game] Creatures, or how the ... - archive.org, archive.today*

              2. perhaps best known for building a o... - archive.org, archive.today*

              3. and look kind of like a mix between... - archive.org, archive.today*

              4. glycogen - archive.org, archive.today*

              5. basically a mean goblin thing that ... - archive.org, archive.today*

              6. Some Norn breeders were interviewed... - archive.org, archive.today*

              7. /r/hobbydrama - archive.org, archive.today*

              8. /r/nichehobbies - archive.org, archive.today*

              9. The first actual Norn torture post ... - archive.org, archive.today*

              10. So he created a Norn called "Slave"... - archive.org, archive.today*

              11. further castration threats, plans t... - archive.org, archive.today*

              12. Norn Crackpipe - archive.org, archive.today*

              13. in an article entitled "Virtual Sad... - archive.org, archive.today*

              14. but tributes to him still crop up f... - archive.org, archive.today*

              I am just a simple bot, *not** a moderator of this subreddit* | bot subreddit | contact the maintainers

              [–]citriclem0n 16 points17 points  (2 children)

              I played Creatures a lot upon release, and actually talked to AntiNorn a lot as we went to the main fansite of the day which has a chat room, LummoxJR's Norn Underground (can't really recall the name). My impression is that he was basically making the whole thing up - Slave was genetically modified and taught the words as described, but the torturing with the grendels etc was just something he wrote to piss people off.

              [–]Fluffy-Apocalypse 42 points43 points  (5 children)

              Did I just stumble on a creepypasta written by Phillip K. Dick?

              [–]MistakeNotDotDotDot 12 points13 points  (0 children)

              Haha, what the fuck? I legit had to check out those Usenet and archive.org links to make sure you weren't bullshitting, this is wild.

              [–][deleted] 13 points14 points  (2 children)

              This is one of the best Hobbydrama write-ups I've seen!

              The "Slave" creature reminds me of a detail from this story about brain emulations: https://qntm.org/lena "nearly all other uploads taken of modern adult humans, most of whom boot into a state of disorientation which is quickly replaced by terror and extreme panic. "

              [–]Thezipper100 12 points13 points  (0 children)

              That was really well done, mate. Shame it ended like it did, but it was a neat look into both emergent AI and how people reacted to things like that. This kinda sounds like what people wanted spore to be, definitely checking this out later.

              Also, gotta love the guy pretending to own the company, then saying he's "using his mate's computer", glad to see that classic was in full swing even back then.

              [–]Glad-Tax6594 93 points94 points  (3 children)

              This game is buried somewhere at my parental units house. I was excited to get at age 11 and didn't play more than a few days. I think my Norn had a mental impairment and I was unable to handle it, no matter how many times I slapped it.

              Thanks for the membries!

              [–][deleted] 56 points57 points  (0 children)

              Sounds like they needed more slapping.

              [–]Scuzzbag 79 points80 points  (0 children)

              Try slapping less

              [–]cast_all_your_cares 12 points13 points  (0 children)

              I was obsessed with Creatures for several years in middle school, but I didn't venture down the torture side of game play. The custom COB community online was really neat. Users uploaded things like a beanie baby vending machine that the norns could push and it would make piles of beanie babies.

              [–]AccidentalHomophone 53 points54 points  (5 children)

              Honestly, that’s a really good point Steve Grand brings up: if they’re just fake creatures, is it ok to torture them? I don’t think this is an issue where people are really going to change sides.

              [–]sansabeltedcow 21 points22 points  (0 children)

              You’re probably right that people won’t change sides. On the one hand, I totally get the exploratory impulse, since that’s basically what the game seems designed for. On the other, most humans do respond to sentient beings’ distress and pain; I suspect some of the joy in Norn abuse is subverting that within oneself. It may depend on the individual user as to how much they respond to the depiction of distress; for those to whom the Norns never elicited any empathy or for whom they were more like directing a horror movie, it may be hard to see the POV of people for whom Norns occupied a similar emotional landscape to pets.

              [–]HyenaSwitch 80 points81 points  (2 children)

              to me the issue is more of antinorn seeing people having harmless fun, and going out of his way to upset and disturb them and ruin their fun. To me, that kind of behavior is the mark of a serious asshole. It's not hard to just let people do their thing, no matter how dumb you think it is. Yeah, the reaction was really extreme and disturbing in its own way, but that doesn't suddenly make him the good guy.

              [–]bismuthstorm 8 points9 points  (0 children)

              Ack, I've been in this fandom for ages and have been meaning to write about this exact thing! I think at some point AntiNorn claimed he was torturing them to get people to nurture them back to health and teach a moral lesson or some similar excuse. I had no idea he died, though...

              [–]beaverteeth92 10 points11 points  (1 child)

              This reminds me a lot of The Lifecycle of Software Objects by Ted Chiang.

              [–][deleted] 28 points29 points  (0 children)

              Oh fuck! I remember being incredibly upset about this when I was like 7-8.

              [–]kabukistar 27 points28 points  (0 children)

              I remember playing that game as a kid and being absolutely terrible at it. Glad to see it's because it was a ridiculously complicated game.

              Also, antiNorn sounds like a complete tool.

              [–]OneTrickPonypower 7 points8 points  (0 children)

              Wow, I had this game as a kid and I didn't get it at all...this write-up is gold, thank you for filling us in on some prime sadistic hobby drama!

              [–]Squigglyelf 7 points8 points  (0 children)

              I had this game as a young child and it felt like a fever dream. I wanted to try to find it, but I didn't even know how to begin describing it. I'm so happy to find this, and I can't believe how deep this goes?

              I'm really considering buying them and trying again.

              [–]HorribleHorrace 9 points10 points  (0 children)

              This brings me back to my numerous attempts at finding the illusive "purple mountain Norns" only to find some mutated abomination crawling across my screen. I can indeed vouch for the intense personal responsibility people felt in raising these things. Good times!

              [–]pcserenity 7 points8 points  (0 children)

              I was a columnist writing for major game press back when this product was released and the part that's not really being covered here in all the re-imaging of this product is that it entirely failed to meet its original design goals as was laid out to the industry well before its release. It was released way beyond its original expected release date and what they put out shared virtually no resemblance to what we were all told to expect -- a game more about growing entirely unique lifeforms from single cells on up. Instead they released this sugary-sweet game with bizarre teddy bear-like beings that felt more like a standard game than any sort of scientific endeavor. Almost no one at the time referred to it as anything other than a cute game and much of the press on it was luke warm. I personally slammed it as a bore, and stand by that view.

              [–]jackalfaced 7 points8 points  (1 child)

              Oh hey, I was wondering when the AntiNorn story would make it over here. I was active in the community during the time this guy was around- he plays nice in the Wired article, but he was absolutely a purposefully antagonizing asshole. Dude deserves no sympathy.

              I’d love to see someone do a follow up on the Gameware forums shutdown! From what I remember the community was completely out of control and GW left one single admin (Lisa, I think?) in charge and eventually she got fed up. Wild times.

              [–]ErickFTG 10 points11 points  (0 children)

              Everything about this post is very bizarre.

              Loving norn breeders that sent death threats to a cybermasochist. And finally the developer who has "I'm God" vibes.

              [–]TheBwanasBurden 24 points25 points  (0 children)

              Boy if that isn't a clickbait title

              [–]ArptAdmin 6 points7 points  (0 children)

              Good times playing Creature as a kid.

              I vaguely remember all this drama with the Navy guy and slave.

              [–]Gorvoslov 8 points9 points  (1 child)

              I never did figure out why my norns would sometimes just randomly die when being imported, so step 1 was always keeping multiple backups of everyone.