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all 107 comments

[–][deleted]  (5 children)

[deleted]

    [–]krokodilchik -2 points-1 points  (4 children)

    You read the pirate thread too, huh?

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]gwern[S] 6 points7 points  (2 children)

      I think he is referencing the pirateat40 bet. Given that pirate turned out to have no clever plan for winning the bet and his Ponzi failed not too long after the bet, the inference people usually draw is that pirateat40 never intended or expected to win the bet and saw it primarily as a public show of confidence / PR, enough to make it worth the loss of 5k btc (although even then that wasn't a tiny sum of money, so I've always wondered if it was really worth it for pirateat40). krokodilchik is apparently one of these people and is making the comparison between the runners of BMR & Sheep and pirateat40.

      [–]_vvvv_ 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I see, thank you for the insight.

      I'm a huge fan of your work, by the way. Keep it up.

      [–]krokodilchik 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yep, pretty much 9/10. Mostly making a tongue-in-cheek comparison between vvvv's suggestion and the posters who had similar ideas about pirateat40.

      [–][deleted] 17 points18 points  (0 children)

      Those odds seem very unpleasant to bet on.

      [–][deleted]  (9 children)

      [deleted]

        [–]gwern[S] 4 points5 points  (8 children)

        I think I'm right. So, if you change your mind to agree with me, then I'm happy because that's one less person to be screwed over in the future; and if you disagree because you think you're right and you'll win the bets, I think I'll make money off you and so I'll be happy that way.

        Either way, I win... if I'm right to be so pessimistic about BMR & Sheep.

        [–][deleted]  (1 child)

        [deleted]

          [–]gwern[S] -5 points-4 points  (0 children)

          I suppose so. Personally, I'd expect that if they both survive a full year, that just means the final bust will be that much more devastating.

          [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          This same thing happens with carder sites. They get busted then the people not busted move onto other carder sites and eventually those carder sites get busted. I can see this trend carrying over the underground drug markets.

          Although, one possible caveat. Kmf was working on a "project", I think it was a decentralized marketplace. When he left SR forums he said he passed it onto people who will finish it. Kmf maybe a little weird and a pedo, but he is smart and I respect for that. He's been involved in other dark web shit that occurred before SR and he has not been captured so his security practices are good. He's the type of genius who stands a chance at developing a market place with the proper security to evade LEA. He's spent multiple years working on it so I'm sure its pretty damn secure.

          [–]bmrthrowagay -3 points-2 points  (4 children)

          you are less confident than a coin flip that BMR will still be up in 12 months time.

          I am a betting man, but only bets that are fair, I tell you what i will flip this coin, 1 bitcoin per bet, if its heads you win 0.4 of your bitcoin back, if its tails you will get 0.4 of your bitcoin back. Oh don't want to bet? lets try to use some retarded attempt at psychology to try to get more people interested "if you are man enough to bet"

          You are not even man enough to give decent odds on something you claim to be fucking confident about.

          [–]gwern[S] 5 points6 points  (3 children)

          you are less confident than a coin flip that BMR will still be up in 12 months time.

          Yes. What of it?

          Oh don't want to bet? lets try to use some retarded attempt at psychology to try to get more people interested "if you are man enough to bet"

          Your bet example doesn't even work. There are no payoffs greater than what was bet, unlike the bets I am offering. Try harder.

          You are not even man enough to give decent odds on something you claim to be fucking confident about.

          Odds != confidence. A point-value is not a confidence interval. Stats 101 here. An estimate can be of very high probability without being very confident. Example: in a binomial setting, you run 20 trials with 19 successes for a observed rate of 95% success (surely 'decent odds') yet when you look at the confidence interval, it's 75%-99.9%, which is certainly not "fucking confident".

          [–]bmrthrowagay -4 points-3 points  (2 children)

          The bet example i gave was to indicate "your offer is stupid therefore i will reply just as stupidly" It was ironic, Trying to make the numbers add up compared to your bet wont work, its not suppose to, that was the point.

          Btw your "Definitions" are very unfair, anyone betting on BMR to still be up has already lost, because your link wont work, that isn't the BMR link.

          You are making it sound like something it simply is not.

          It is a bet at unfair odds to anyone who wishes to place a bet.

          [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

          Trying to make the numbers add up compared to your bet wont work, its not suppose to, that was the point.

          Congratulations on being a moron.

          Btw your "Definitions" are very unfair, anyone betting on BMR to still be up has already lost, because your link wont work, that isn't the BMR link.

          What, they let it lapse already? And people say backopy is a good admin, FFS. Fine, if anyone wants to take the BMR bets, we'll amend it to whatever URL BMR can be found at.

          It is a bet at unfair odds to anyone who wishes to place a bet.

          If you think the odds are unfair and thus that BMR/Sheep have even higher chances of dying soon than I give in OP, I have no quarrel with you.

          [–]reaperx2 2 points3 points  (0 children)

          He's a fucking moron with a big ego. Its not worth fighting cause he isn't listening to a word you say. I don't think he realizes he has no clue what he is even talking about.

          [–]LongLiveThe_KingIAMA Shill AMAA 4 points5 points  (2 children)

          Hey gwern.

          What do you think of the project proposed by badwolfhosting? (I'll post a link in a minute) They seem to be the most professional and most protected group out there at this time.

          Edit: http://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/1p3g4z/bad_wolf_hosting_looking_to_move_to_hosting/

          [–]gwern[S] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

          They talk a good game, but execution is everything, some of their claims will be hard to verify (how can you know that they're using any hardware anti-tampering mechanisms?), and I wonder if they may not wind up becoming a second FreedomHosting - an obvious target for LE which will break multiple targets in one fell swoop.

          [–]LongLiveThe_KingIAMA Shill AMAA 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          True, thanks for your insight

          [–]IAmIncognegro 19 points20 points  (0 children)

          Welcome to /r/circlejerk

          [–]TUZU 3 points4 points  (12 children)

          the odds aren't enough for me to take this.

          [–]Zevee 2 points3 points  (1 child)

          Actually, the odds are crap. Worst I ever seen.

          [–]gwern[S] -3 points-2 points  (0 children)

          You've seen other bets on these topics...?

          [–]gwern[S] -4 points-3 points  (9 children)

          Congratulations. :)

          [–]TUZU 4 points5 points  (8 children)

          well you're doing it backward's if you really believe what you are saying than it would be my one bitcoin to yall's 3. It's almost like your'e betting against your own opinion. But with the money you will make off of this I respect what your'e trying to do.

          [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

          You're right that we could take bets the other way, but this bet offer is already more complex than most people want to bother understanding, and being willing to take bets the other way would blow the difficulty of OP up even higher since most people do not think remotely probabilistically, much less understand why you should be indifferent to betting for or against an event at the right odds.

          [–]TUZU 0 points1 point  (6 children)

          so it's 4 of you right so does that mean if I bet the 2.3 or what ever for sheep to shut down in 6 months and it's 2.3 to 1 does that mean its 1 bitcoin from each of yall or one total? sorry I've made a living gambling

          [–]gwern[S] -2 points-1 points  (5 children)

          One total. (Each of us put in 1 bitcoin into our little bankroll, and there wound up being 4 of us total, so at 4 bets, that makes a nice simple 1 bitcoin per bet.)

          [–]TUZU 1 point2 points  (4 children)

          see, so it's like betting against myself. The price of my bet doesn't even cover with winning bet if I win. Or are you doing it as I bet 7 bitcoins, I get my 7 plus yall's 1 if I win?

          [–]gwern[S] -2 points-1 points  (3 children)

          Or are you doing it as I bet 7 bitcoins, I get my 7 plus yall's 1 if I win?

          Yes, that's what I had in mind. Was my wording in OP not clear? I tried to make it as explicit as possible. eg

          (you risk ฿3 and if BMR is still operating, you win our ฿1, else you lose the ฿3 to us)

          I send ฿1 to Nanotube, you send ฿3 to Nanotube, and then at the end he sends me ฿4 if BMR is dead, and he sends you ฿4 if BMR is alive.

          [–]TUZU 5 points6 points  (2 children)

          I wish you the best of luck in this, but the pay outs aren't worth the bet. It's like you're doing it backwards. but I do respect what you are trying to do. And with the odds being what you stated that they are if I bet 7 than should win 6.5 that's the odds you stated yourself. But good luck with it!

          [–]gwern[S] -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

          I wish you the best of luck in this, but the pay outs aren't worth the bet.

          Then we have reached agreement, excellent.

          [–]reaperx2 5 points6 points  (5 children)

          I think I have to side with gwern here. He is obviously very, very knowledgeable and does all kinds of research. Not to mention that detailed report on SR.

          Though, if your careful use PGP and bitfog and you only fund your account enough to make your order I think you'll be fine even if those sites go down, unless your unlucky and ordered a day or 2 before the site goes down; if your using disposable income to make purchases this shouldnt be much of a problem either. Yes, it sucks to loose money, but that's life. When dealing in drugs IRL you also face the possibility of loosing money.

          Anyway, gwern what are your thoughts on SR 2.0? The new DPR competent on security issues. Moreover, he keeps his mouth shut unless it pertains to business. He doesn't seem to get involved in any philosophy or anything so profiling him should be more difficult. Also, stexo vouched for the current SR 2.0. Stexo was a smart person too just like Astor or kmf and he understood Opsec and how to stay anonymous.

          I think the new SR 2.0 will last a while before its seized or shutdown. I bet the new DPR doesn't make the same mistakes that Ross allegedly did and I also think the new DPR will have some sort of emergency plan. Also, I would expect him to to close up shop (and refund people) the moment he suspects LEA onto him or he senses something wrong.

          [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (4 children)

          I am hopeful that SR2 may try to do things right, but someone can look smart and be making lots of mistakes you don't see in the background. I reserve my judgment until it actually launches and has operated for a little bit - I will be particularly looking to see if SR2 implements things like mandatory encryption of addresses, secure escrow, etc. If it operates basically like SR1 or Atlantis or Sheep and includes 'features' like auto-encryption of addresses, I will be unimpressed and dubious.

          [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Yeah, I highly doubt SR 2.0 will auto encrypt addresses. Stexo vouched for the new DPR so I would assume the new DPR is knowledgeable about security and wouldn't do that because stexo understood security and I doubt he would vouch for someone who wasn't up to par.

          Hell, there is the possibility that stexo is the new DPR, but we would never know.

          Another possibility though this is a long shot is this SR 2.0 could be utilizing the code kmf was working on. Kmfs last post mentioned giving the code to someone else to finish. Kmf may possibly be a pedo, but he was super knowledgeable about security. He spent a couple years working on it so I have no doubt it was designed to be extremely secure. Again we probably wouldn't be able to prove this, but it is probable. I really hope this theory is true because kmf was pretty fucking paranoid so something coming from him should be well programmed.

          Also, this new DPR is well aware that the NSA had the capabilities to compromise the server. He intends to rent a bunch of VPS and use them as relays to make the job more difficult and expensive for the government. Also this DPR is taking his time to develop the site (hopefully he's actually thoroughly testing the security ). I think this whole ordeal about different vague release dates is intentional.

          But, I agree we can't know for sure until the site is launched. I have a feeling that this DPR pays close attention to detail and everything he says or does is well thought out and planned.

          This is off topic, but does sheep auto encrypt? I know BMR does (but I disabled it), but this is the first time I heard about sheep doing it. I still encrypt my informational manually so the point is moot for me.

          Sorry for the terrible structure and probably bad grammar. I'm a bit sleep deprived.

          [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Gwern I think your smart enough to read between the lines here. Check out DPRs latest comment

          http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/comments/1pmb3k/dpr_the_quiet_before_the_storm/

          This makes my theory about SR 2.0 being kmf's p2p market much more plausible. First he says his announcement will be major news around the world. So whatever it is its big and I think a p2p black market would certainly be big news. Secondly he says he's going to disappear after this. This would actually make a GREAT deal of sense if the market is p2p because he will no longer have to manage a centralized server. Moreover, a p2p market will not need a leader because it is decentralized. Also, with a p2p market it make a lot of sense to build all these relays.

          Thinks makes me much more confident in DPR because it shows he can "tame" his ego and not let it get the best of him.

          What are your thoughts?

          [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

          /shrug. Why speculate? He's going to reveal everything in a few days. There's no reason to think about it unless you need to take some sort of concrete action like making copies of forums or something.

          [–]angrygayvirgin -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

          y, very knowledgeable and does all kinds of research. Not to mention that detailed report on SR.

          Though, if your careful use PGP and bitfog and you only fund your account enough to make your order I think you'll be fine even if those sites go down, unless your unlucky an

          The new DPR sounds like an incompetent fool.

          [–]Delerrar 13 points14 points  (15 children)

          Well I for one can't wait to see how much BTC you manage to steal from people dumb enough to send you coin to that wallet. Cuz I'll bet money that if that pot gets big enough greed takes over and you pay off your escrow guy to give you all the cash.

          [–]reaperx2 4 points5 points  (0 children)

          He has a link to his site, which has his own name. He'd be stupid to scam because people would know who scammed them and he'd be open to retaliation.

          I'm sticking up for you gwern because you are an asset to this community. That report on SR is a goldmine for information pertaining to the silk road and that is useful to our community. If you look at that report there's TONS of information, which is all citied. That had to have taken a good bit of time and he did this for FREE! I'm willing to bet gwern knows more about SR and the dark net than the rest of the community so instead of insulting and/or arguing you should try and comprehend what he's trying to say and that is these markets are HOT now so tread lightly. Do some research on security. The old SR forums would be the place to look.

          [–]gwern[S] 4 points5 points  (13 children)

          Cuz I'll bet money that if that pot gets big enough greed takes over and you pay off your escrow guy to give you all the cash.

          Are you kidding me? Nanotube has handled 10,000 bitcoin bets. You really think he's going to throw the bet and endanger his reputation for a cut from just 4 bitcoins? Troll harder.

          [–]Delerrar 12 points13 points  (12 children)

          All anyone has is your claim he's running escrow. This is the internet and I hold the opinion that 1. People on the internet are full of shit and 2. It is the best way to rip people off for sums of cash. Until someone proves to me that something is the case then they are completely full of shit.

          I will say this. First time anyone's ever called me a troll have an upvote.

          [–]gwern[S] 3 points4 points  (3 children)

          A pity that you did not take my offered bet, if I was "completely full of shit". Oh well.

          As promised, Nanotube's signature is now available: http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/comments/1pko9y/the_bet_bmr_and_sheep_to_die_in_a_year/cd3hvj8

          You can verify it as usual with GPG. You can check the web of trust where various Bitcoin figures have signed his key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=vindex&search=0xE7F938BEC95594B2 etc

          [–]Delerrar -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

          Well then I stand corrected, have fun with the bet! I'd have taken you up on the offer but unfortunately I'm not on reddit all the time. But hey guess that's good cuz I would have lost my money.

          [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

          Well then I stand corrected, have fun with the bet!

          I would, if anyone would take it!

          [–]Delerrar 0 points1 point  (0 children)

          Lol, well you are trying to get ppl to bet about something that they don't want to happen.

          [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

          All anyone has is your claim he's running escrow.

          Hah. Fine, I see your problem. Well, I've linked to Nanotube's keys in OP. He happens to be out right now but he should be back soonish. What do you say to a bet of 0.1btc at even odds that Nanotube will post within 24 hours a valid signed message confirming that he is indeed doing escrow for this bet as described in OP? I'm game if you are...

          [–][deleted]  (6 children)

          [deleted]

            [–]gwern[S] 2 points3 points  (5 children)

            Drat, you caught me! I have a split personality and one has spent the past few years on Bitcoin trading and running companies and the other has spent it writing the 1.4m words of material on gwern.net!</Fight Club>

            [–]eminem56 1 point2 points  (4 children)

            Wow that's quite an accomplishment. How do you do all of that work; do you not sleep? What's your secret. I want to work that efficiently.

            [–]JAndiz 2 points3 points  (0 children)

            ...clearly you haven't read Gwern's material. Modafinil, obviously!

            [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (2 children)

            How do you do all of that work; do you not sleep?

            Yes, that's the joke about the Fight Club allusion. (If you haven't seen the movie, you might enjoy it; it would be a bit spoilery to explain it in more detail.)

            [–]eminem56 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            I know I was trying to be sarcastic, which is kind of hard to do online.

            I knew that is an impossible task. Did you really believe that was an honest question? Do you think anyone would actually believe you there? Society can't be that dumb. Let's hope not.

            [–]gwern[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

            Did you really believe that was an honest question?

            I didn't assume anything either way. The comments on this page have reminded me to never overestimate people.

            [–]KansasBibleCompany 3 points4 points  (1 child)

            Definitions

            • BMR = kss62ljxtqiqdfuq.onion
            • Sheep = sheep5u64fi457aw.onion
            • The exact definition of 'not operating' includes but is not limited to this: on noon EST of 30 April 2013 (6-months) or 30 October 2014 (12-months), if Nanotube can visit the relevant black-market, create a buyer account, deposit bitcoins, and order an item, then the site is operating. If deposits or new accounts or purchases are not allowed or not possible, it is not operating.

              At his own discretion, the arbitrator can take into account other factors, like widespread reports that a market has been raided and turned into a sting operation.

            These clauses sound like they are designed to get out of paying a losing bet. A market could shut down new user registration for a number of reasons; it doesn't imply that they have become non-operational. I'm sure they could bribe SMP or BMR to shut down registration for a short period of time if the stakes were high enough.

            The "other factors" are also very subjective and liable to be tampered with. I think it was last week that people were claiming that Sheep staff were stealing their money, and the /r/sheepmarketplace link on the sidebar was replaced with "SCAM". Sure people are skeptical of Sheep, but that was a mostly unfounded accusation. Especially if OP knows the right people, they can easily perpetuate a rumor like this for their own scam.

            Not to mention that they defined BMR and Sheep by certain .onion URLs. BMR has already had to change their URL, and one of the newer addresses is listed in OP's post. They could very well say "this URL isn't working" even if the given market is up under a new address.

            [–]gwern[S] 6 points7 points  (0 children)

            A market could shut down new user registration for a number of reasons; it doesn't imply that they have become non-operational.

            They could, but since when have Silk, Atlantis, BMR, or Sheep ever shut down new buyer registration for any but the shortest possible periods? That's just not how their business models go. This criteria has the virtue that it's clear, anyone can judge it for themselves simply by doing it, and it does not depend on nebulous reports by unknowns about what might or might not be going on in closed servers. (Imagine your favored terms which permit closed marketplaces to count. Come next October, Sheep shut down in June 2014, stating that it was becoming a closed marketplace. No one except a few dubious throwaway accounts claims to be able to buy on Sheep. How does Nanotube judge, hm? Under my criteria, it would be perfectly clear what the answer is and no one could dispute it. Under your criteria... "Especially if [someone] knows the right people, they can easily perpetuate a rumor like this for their own scam.")

            The "other factors" are also very subjective and liable to be tampered with.

            It is subjective, but we have no way of knowing every possible outcome and that needs to be taken into account. This would not be the first bet Nanotube's judged, and I expect him to be reasonable; he requested that discretion clause, not me.

            [–]reaperx2 2 points3 points  (2 children)

            Some of you guys are naive. Gwern has stated facts to back his reasoning yet most of you in disagreement do not use any facts.

            I know that the BMR leak he mentions is true. The source for the site was leaked and it was VERY poorly coded. Hell, people were able to reconstruct databases from the leak so I wouldn't doubt that there are vulnerabilities elsewhere (in the non leaked code ). If you want to run a black market website you better have good programming skills or else the server will be compromised. I'm not saying that BMR is compromised ATM, but based on backopys coding I wouldn't be surprised if the server is compromised eventually.

            edit I forgot to mention this but backopy doesn't have the best security sense. He implements auto pgp, which sounds nice but it isn't. If the server is compromised it would be trivial for LEA to modify the auto PGP so that it sends cleartext to the FBI/CIA/NSA so essentially it's useless if not dangerous. I say dangerous because it creates a false sense of security. People should encrypt their information themselves and not rely on third party tools. Basically, he's encouraging people to not learn PGP or not to bother encrypting it if you do know it. Anybody who understands anonymity will be advising the exact opposite of what backopy is. The security experts (Astor, pine, kmf) on the SR forum all recommend that you learn PGP and encrypt data yourself because you are responsible for your security and third parties can not be trusted 100%. Those experts knew their shit especially kmf cause he has been involved in black market shit way before SR and he's hasn't been busted so clearly he knows what he's doing.

            As for sheep, well you can tell that much of the site was done in haste because of all the bugs. If the site was developed properly many of those bugs would not be their. This suggests that their (sheep devs) programming skills are not the best. I'm not sure what to make of that clearnet site (ie: if it was done by sheep or not). If the admins were smart they should probably move to Ukraine or Russia as those two countries don't always cooperate with the USA on legal issues. The general concenus is that they are eastern European, possibly Czech so they probably wouldn't have much difficulty getting to either of those two countries.

            BTW, I have used both BMR and sheep and will continue to do so because I use PGP and I get my coins "unverified" ( didn't show ID or anything ). Moreover, I don't leave many bitcoins on either site just a couple of dollars in case of short so if the site is seized or w/e I don't loose much and all my personal information is encrypted manually by me.

            Anyone buying of either of these sites should know how to use PGP and how to tumble bitcoins or buy them anonymously. I think gwern is doing the right thing because we should be vigilant especially now. We should always assume the black markets are compromised and act accordingly. There are real consequences if you are caught don't assume that just because you are buying personal amounts you are "safe". Yes, you maybe safer than a vendor or a bulk buyer, but you can still get in trouble. Just look at the NOD arrest, they turned him into a CI and now LEA has those buyers information and there are reports of buyer arrests and I don't think NOD sold bulk.

            Anyway, gwern I was wondering what your view is for drug prohibition? I'm thinking your against it because you don't spew government anti drug propaganda and you treat us drug users with respect.

            [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            He implements auto pgp, which sounds nice but it isn't. If the server is compromised it would be trivial for LEA to modify the auto PGP so that it sends cleartext to the FBI/CIA/NSA so essentially it's useless if not dangerous.

            It's Atlantis all over again. When Atlantis did it in the name of convenience, people were all 'Atlantis is a honeypot', but I guess we all love backopy and trust that it'll be safe...

            Anyway, gwern I was wondering what your view is for drug prohibition? I'm thinking your against it because you don't spew government anti drug propaganda and you treat us drug users with respect.

            Very much against. I haven't written much on the topic of prohibition because I have nothing new to say on the topic, but when it comes up I've been clear about my views (eg when the BBC asked me about it: http://gwern.net/Silk%20Road#bbc-questions ). I've never used marijuana or heroin or cocaine or your classic hard drugs, and never intend to, but it's still clear to me that the War on Drugs has been a colossal mistake on the scale of invading Iraq.

            [–]reaperx2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            I guess you see the big picture. Locking drug addicts in cages is counter productive as it does not help their recovery. Drugs are readily available in jails so it's not likely they will quit using drugs because they are in jail. Hell, I'm sure there's a greater temptation to use drugs in jail because its jail. This often times results in the person never getting any professional medical help so they end up in a vicious cycle of going to jail then released then returning later. Moreover, jail has serious implications for ones future as it affects your ability to get loans and jobs. This makes the entire situation worse it makes it much more difficult to re-enter normal society.

            The government acknowledges addiction is a disease yet they still treat drug addicts like criminals. As such, drug addicts should get medical help not jail time. I bet its cheaper to send someone to rehab vs jail. This strategy would have several obvious benefits: jails would no longer be overcrowded, which results in people being released early and often times these are violent offenders and shouldn't be released early. Also, it would reduce prison/jail costs as there would be fewer people there, this saved money could actually be spent on drug rehab which would be beneficial for society in the long run.

            Sorry for the rant, the whole prohibition thing pisses me off. I actually suspect the reason its kept is the government is greedy. This 'war' funds the DEA and private prisons. I honestly don't think people in office are stupid enough to see prohibition is a failure.

            Also, its cool that even though your straight edge (which I respect) you don't judge people who use drugs and treat them us with respect. There are plenty of straight edge people, who look down upon people who use drugs. Not all drug users are "dumb, lazy, and steal". I use drugs and I am smart. Shuglin also used drugs and that guy was a fucking chemistry genius like Walter White. He designed the whole 2c series of drugs and several others. He designed the actual molecule and strategically modified specific bonds to alter how it functions. He also designed 2 new MDMA synthesis techniques, these techniques were far superior to the old Merck one. The yield on these techniques was very high which is impressive. But, then you have assholes like dod/coachella who make us look bad and I think he has mental disorders in addition to a drug problem.

            [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            I'm sure any market that exists now will fail eventually. They're very new and you don't have a lot of people willing to run one, so it's going to take a while for us to get a market that's stable, secure, and run by the right people.

            But people will still use the existing markets. And the obvious demand for these places will inevitably lead to someone creating A Really Good Market. There were a million search engines, then Google came along and solved everyone's problems. A million web shops, then Amazon. Same thing will happen here. In the meantime, be careful and don't trust any site with too much of your money.

            [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Kmf was working on a more secure market, though he passed it on to someone else to complete. I'm sure he left it in good hands and I think he quit is because of the heat, which is smart on his part.

            I think the market was p2p, but I'm not certain. Kmf is a smart guy and seems like an expert in security. He was involved in some other darknet activities before SR and he hasn't been captured. I'm picturing him as some uber paranoid computer nerd who lives in a bunker

            [–]fuckoffplsthankyou 1 point2 points  (14 children)

            Here's my take on this.

            Even if Sheep/BMR fall, as long as I use PGP and Tor and practice proper OpSec, how will it affect me?

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (13 children)

            1. you lose everything in escrow, which as the fall of SR demonstrated, could be quite a lot. Even if you don't lose the $50k I've heard Tessellated claim he lost, the amount you lose could still be painful.
            2. as the fall of SR also demonstrated, a number of sellers kept buyer addresses & information. BMR's admins have demonstrated tolerance for this behavior in one case I know of, and I doubt Sheep is any more proactive. This information can be taken or traded by LE.
            3. you still have to pay the transition costs to new markets after a fall, the same transition costs being paid now (fear, uncertainty, confusion over what new markets to use), even if you personally are secure.

            So, that's 3 right there. I'm sure people can think of others.

            [–]fuckoffplsthankyou 2 points3 points  (10 children)

            1. Don't make big orders, or understand the risk. Start small and work up.

            2. Understood. The first step to avoiding a trap is knowing of it's existence. Greater care should be taken to avoid this issue in the future.

            3. Transition costs? I had accounts on BMR for months. I feel no fear about the SR fall. I certainly don't feel any uncertainty or confusion.

            My point was, what is the threat to my personal security. If I lose $500 bux (which I think would be my limit) because of a bust, so what? Count yourself lucky you aren't in cuffs.

            If a seller keeps buyer addresses/info, agreed, that is fucking slimy and stupid on the part of the seller, but that's no different from a seller in real life rolling on his clients. Only thing is, chances are I'm several states away and I control what info the seller gets. Some John Doe info doesn't necessarily have to be me. Agreed that buyers should all be much more careful in future about how they get their product, but, encrypt with PGP, encrypt your machine, (plus other steps I won't get into) can help secure, it depends on the user on both ends being smart, which unfortuately is a no bet, but there are ways to secure yourself.

            1. Well, I have several IRL backups so I'm unconcerned with the temporary downing of a darknet drug provider, tho I was very sad to hear of SRs downfall. However, BMR was alive and kicking so there has always been alternatives. Anyway, that's my .00000002BTC

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (9 children)

            If a seller keeps buyer addresses/info, agreed, that is fucking slimy and stupid on the part of the seller, but that's no different from a seller in real life rolling on his clients.

            That's not the comparison being made, though. The comparison is between a market being busted and sellers deciding to roll over or extort their buyers, and a market not being busted because it's secure and sellers having much less incentive to abuse the information they collected. Incentives matter.

            [–]fuckoffplsthankyou 1 point2 points  (8 children)

            What's the difference between a market being busted and a seller being busted? If the market is busted, the seller shouldn't find incentive to abuse the information any more than they would if they were busted IRL, unless they are the rolling over type. Any seller who keeps info because they think they can use it later is not going to be swayed because the market is "secure". In fact, people should assume that the market is never secure and take steps accordingly.

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (7 children)

            What's the difference between a market being busted and a seller being busted?

            A market being busted can lead to seller busts? A market being busted can lead to sellers losing their balances and extorting their buyers which they would neither need to nor dare to do if the market were functioning as usual?

            [–]fuckoffplsthankyou 1 point2 points  (6 children)

            A market being busted can lead to seller busts?

            Only if they were stupid or careless.

            A market being busted can lead to sellers losing their balances and extorting their buyers which they would neither need to nor dare to do if the market were functioning as usual?

            If a seller is going to extort their buyers, they'll do it whether or not the market is functioning. It's just a matter of time if the seller is so inclined and losing their balances would just be the excuse. Whoever leaves BTC on an exchange or a market is taking a risk, why not withdraw immediately?

            All I'm saying is that there are unethical sellers out there and there are ethical ones as well. The functioning of the market does nothing to stop this, everyone has to take their own precautions regardless.

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (5 children)

            Only if they were stupid or careless.

            So in other words, yes. People have been stupid & careless, they are being stupid & careless as we speak, and they will be stupid & careless for the indefinite future. There is no point wishing for a fantasy universe where everyone is a skill cypherpunk whose opsec is perfect.

            If a seller is going to extort their buyers, they'll do it whether or not the market is functioning. It's just a matter of time if the seller is so inclined and losing their balances would just be the excuse

            No, they won't do it regardless of any and all external events. At the margin, this is false. Once a market has gone down and they are desperate, choices change especially as they no longer have much reputation or future business to forfeit.

            Whoever leaves BTC on an exchange or a market is taking a risk, why not withdraw immediately?

            Please see the previous point about stupid & careless, and throw in additional observations about how sellers are busy running businesses.

            All I'm saying is that there are unethical sellers out there and there are ethical ones as well. The functioning of the market does nothing to stop this

            I disagree strongly. The design of marketplaces have great influence on the actions of participants. Regulation does, strangely enough, influence people. The checks and balances do change behavior. People react to incentives - you put in escrow, and sellers do not prosper by scamming people; leave out escrow, and you get a lemon market and scammer paradise.

            [–]fuckoffplsthankyou 0 points1 point  (4 children)

            So in other words, yes. People have been stupid & careless, they are being stupid & careless as we speak, and they will be stupid & careless for the indefinite future. There is no point wishing for a fantasy universe where everyone is a skill cypherpunk whose opsec is perfect.

            I haven't been careless or stupid. If people can't practice proper opsec, perhaps they shouldn't play this game. The tools are there, if people can't, don't, or won't use them, they have no one to blame but themselves.

            No, they won't do it regardless of any and all external events. At the margin, this is false. Once a market has gone down and they are desperate, choices change especially as they no longer have much reputation or future business to forfeit.

            Obviously they will if they have. A market going down and causing desperation is a lame excuse at best. Why would you keep buyer records? Obviously you are doing so to attack a buyer in future which is pretty slimy and has nothing to do with the downing of a website but an inclination to be slimy on the part of the seller. (note: when I said you, I obviously don't mean you)

            Please see the previous point about stupid & careless, and throw in additional observations about how sellers are busy running businesses.

            Please see my point above about stupidity and carelessness. In addition, it takes the click of a mouse to move your money. I can't speak for others but I've never been too busy to click on a button, esp when it involved money.

            I disagree strongly. The design of marketplaces have great influence on the actions of participants. Regulation does, strangely enough, influence people. The checks and balances do change behavior. People react to incentives - you put in escrow, and sellers do not prosper by scamming people; leave out escrow, and you get a lemon market and scammer paradise.

            Feel free to disagree. My point wasn't about escrow, it was about keeping buyer addresses.

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (3 children)

            I haven't been careless or stupid.

            You're missing the entangled nature here. It's not just you who has to not be careless or stupid, it's every seller you order from as well.

            Obviously they will if they have.

            You're ignoring the marginal nature here. A market going down increases how many people will be willing to do so at the margin because conditions have changed. And the market going down changes the incentives as well as conditions!

            Why would you keep buyer records? Obviously you are doing so to attack a buyer in future

            Or because one is lazy and wants to save effort on future orders, or because one is careless, or for some other reason related to a seller's idiosyncratic conditions which result in addresses hanging around.

            Please see my point above about stupidity and carelessness.

            Stupidity and carelessness of everyone involved, again.

            I can't speak for others but I've never been too busy to click on a button, esp when it involved money.

            Yet apparently many sellers were. I don't care what you think, when the facts say otherwise.

            My point wasn't about escrow, it was about keeping buyer addresses.

            Behavior w/r/t keeping addresses is as much affected by market mechanics as scamming in general.

            [–]DarknetWanderer 1 point2 points  (1 child)

            1. Why would you leave your coins in the site any longer than you have to? Obviously for vendors this is risky, but potential losses like that are part of operating a business. Almost any vendor doing solid business will only take a small percentage loss of total profit for losing all escrowed funds at any time, and all the vendors have learned their lesson about leaving funds in the site any longer than absolutely necessary. This doesn't apply to customers at all.

            2. There is literally no way to stop vendors from doing this on any site.

            3. More markets are going to spring up in the next few months. The one that is able to provide the best atmosphere, as SR once did, will outcompete the others. I happen to think you're right and that BMR and Sheep will not be the sites to come out on top, but for the time being they work well enough until something better comes along.

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            1. Because not everyone has huge amounts of free time to withdraw each fund exactly as it becomes available and risk not having funds convenient for purchases. If everyone learned their lessons, why did the SR server contain so much?
            2. There is no way, but the damage can be reduced by not having sites go down and giving sellers incentive to trade their lists to LE or threaten their customers as actually happened.
            3. Yeah, they work well enough. If one has to buy drugs, they're still better than the street. But as I said in the summary, I think a lot of the current users are delusionally optimistic about the longevity and safety of BMR & Sheep.

            [–]Bigowl 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Well it looks like you were right!

            [–][deleted] 7 points8 points  (3 children)

            this is stupid

            [–][deleted] -5 points-4 points  (2 children)

            you mean "I am stupid"

            [–]eof -1 points0 points  (0 children)

            +/u/bitcointip

            1 internet

            i lolled

            [–]jesuslikedmen -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

            pwned

            [–]gwern[S] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

            PGP-signed version as promised in OP:

            -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
            Hash: SHA512
            
            > BMR & Sheep have demonstrated their danger, but few black-market-users seem to
            > genuinely appreciate this. I am publicly betting that they will fail in the
            > near-future. If you think I am wrong, just try to take my money and prove me
            > wrong! Otherwise, spare us your cheap talk.
            
            Hi! I'm [Gwern Branwen](http://gwern.net/Links). You may remember me from
            such black-market webpages as
            [Silk Road: Theory & Practice](http://gwern.net/Silk%20Road), and
            [/r/silkroad](http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/search?q=author%3Agwern&restrict_sr=on).
            Today I'm here to talk to you about BlackMarket Reloaded &
            Sheep Marketplace.
            
            (A signed version of this 30 October 2013 post will be posted as a comment,
            because I wish to use Markdown formatting; my PGP key is
            [available](http://gwern.net/Links#contact).)
            
            # Background
            
            With the fall of SR, we're all very sad: it was a good site which performed a
            useful function. But life goes on, so it's no surprise we're all moving on to
            new black markets. That said, I am concerned by the accumulating pattern I am
            seeing around BMR and Sheep, and by the delusional optimism of many of the
            users.
            
            ## BMR
            
            BlackMarket Reloaded, since the fall, has been marked by a pattern of arrogance,
            technical incompetence, dismissal of problems, tolerance for sellers keep buyer
            addresses & issuing threats, astounding tolerance for information leaks (all the
            [implementation information](http://www.reddit.com/r/SheepMarketplace/comments/1nrdwr/bmr_and_sheep_leaking_platform_info_today/),
            and particularly the VPS incident with the user data leak; mirrors:
            [1](http://www.sendspace.com/file/ozr19p),
            [2](https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/182368464/2013-10-17-blackmarketreloaded-userdatabase.sql.xz)),
            etc. We know his code is shitty and smells like vulnerabilities (programmer in 3
            different IRC channels I frequent quoted bits of the leaked code with a mixture
            of hilarity & horror), yet somehow backopy expects to rewrite it better, despite
            being the same person who wrote the first version and the basic security
            principle that new versions have lots of bugs. (I'm not actually bothered by the
            DoS attacks; they're issues for any site, much less hidden services.)
            
            And then there's the things he's not telling us. Atlantis shut down because they
            were worried about contacts from LE, and thus far this shut down seems to have
            saved them; but BMR has been around several times longer than Atlantis - would
            it not beggar belief if LE had not made contacts, attempted SR-style stings, or
            infiltrated BMR staff? And remember how we were able to discover all sorts of
            leaks in DPR's opsec once we had the indictment and knew what to look for? Or
            consider the claims being made about the Project Black Flag Leaks, where someone
            claims to have
            [accessed laundry list of information](http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/comments/1pfzga/never_trust_a_pirate/cd270k3)
            from its internals - only *after* Metta DPR decided to rip-and-run. If this is
            what we see publicly for BMR, what on earth is going on behind the scenes?
            
            backopy should have handed on BMR weeks ago, but is still around. He seems to
            plan to repeat SR/DPR's mistakes exactly: leak information all over the place,
            never retire, and just keep on until he is busted and takes who-knows-how-many
            people down to prison with him. He has learned nothing. What, exactly, is his
            exit strategy? What goals does he have and when will they ever be satisfied? He
            has been running BMR for more than 2 years now, and has not left. How does this
            story end: of a man who does not know his limits, does not have ability equal to
            the task, and refuses to quit while he's ahead? It ends with a party-van, that's
            how it ends.
            
            And hardly anyone seems troubled by this! The BMR subreddit is full of bustle;
            people are even hailing backopy as a "hero" for allowing withdrawal of bitcoins.
            (How generous of him.)
            
            ## Sheep
            
            Is Sheep any better? No. BMR is troubled and probably infiltrated at this point,
            but Sheep may well be a dead market walking at this point. No one has a good
            word to say about its coding, so there may well be BMR-style issues in its
            future. More importantly: the veriest Google search would turn up that clearnet
            site, and it
            [has been](http://www.reddit.com/r/SheepMarketplace/comments/1nsmzx/a_friendly_warning_sheepmarketplacecoms_owner/)
            [pointed out](https://pay.reddit.com/r/SheepMarketplace/comments/1o6wqq/everyones_opinion_on_smp_as_of_yet/ccplp3e)
            that the clearnet Czech site hosted by HexaGeek was *uncannily* similar to the
            actual hidden service. It uses almost the same exact technology, and the
            official explanation is that they had "fans" (fans? who set up, many months ago,
            before anyone gave a damn about Sheep, an entire functioning mirror while
            cloning the software stack and being in a foreign non-English-speaking country
            just like the Sheep admins?). Ridiculous! DPR may have set up a WordPress site,
            but at least 'altoid' didn't run an entire SR mirror! (He left that to
            `onion.to` & `tor2web.org`.). Sheep's likely about one subpoena of HexaGeek away
            from fun party times in the party-van.
            
            # The Wager
            
            I am uninterested in seeing Sheep/BMR busted and lots of newbies caught because
            they can't appreciate the patterns here. People don't take mere criticism
            seriously, and even if I lay it all out like here, and I mention that I have an
            [excellent track record of predictions](http://gwern.net/Prediction%20markets),
            they still won't because anyone can doom-monger and issue warnings, it won't get
            through to them. I want to get through to them - I want them to understand the
            risks they're taking, I want them to reflexively use PGP, and I want them to
            leave balances on sites for as short a time as possible. So! I am putting my
            money where my mouth is.
            
            ## Bets
            
            I and 3 others are publicly wagering ฿4 ($816 at today's rate), ฿1 each, on the
            following 4 bets:
            
            1. BMR will not be operating in 6 months:
            
                25%; 1:3 (you risk ฿3 and if BMR is still operating, you win our ฿1, else
                you lose the ฿3 to us)
            2. BMR will not be operating in 12 months
            
                40%; 1:1.5 (you risk ฿1.5 & BMR is operating in a year, you win our ฿1, else
                lose ฿1.5)
            3. Sheep will not be operating in 6 months
            
                30%; 1:2.3 (your ฿2.3 against our ฿1)
            4. Sheep will not be operating in 12 months
            
                60%; 1:0.66 (you risk ฿0.66 against our ฿1)
            
            The ฿4 are currently stored in
            [`1AZvaBEJMiK8AJ5GvfvLWgHjWgL59TRPGy`](https://blockchain.info/address/1AZvaBEJMiK8AJ5GvfvLWgHjWgL59TRPGy)
            (proof of control:
            `IOqEiWYWtYWFmJaKa29sOUqfMLrSWAWhHxqqB3bcVHuDpcn8rA0FkEqvRYmdgQO4yeXeNHtwr9NSqI9J79G+yPA=`
            is the signature by `1Az` of the string `"This address contains bitcoins for the
            BMR/Sheep bet run by gwern."`).
            
            ## Definitions
            
            - - BMR = `kss62ljxtqiqdfuq.onion`
            - - Sheep = `sheep5u64fi457aw.onion`
            - - The exact definition of 'not operating' includes but is not limited to this:
              on noon EST of 30 April 2013 (6-months) or 30 October 2014 (12-months), if
              Nanotube can visit the relevant black-market, create a buyer account, deposit
              bitcoins, and order an item, then the site is operating. If deposits or new
              accounts or purchases are not allowed or not possible, it is not operating.
            
                At his own discretion, the arbitrator can take into account other factors,
                like widespread reports that a market has been raided and turned into a
                sting operation.
            
            ## Escrow
            
            Arbitration & escrow are being provided by Nanotube, a long-time
            [Bitcoin](https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/User:Nanotube) user &
            [-otc trader](http://bitcoin-otc.com/viewratingdetail.php?nick=nanotube), who
            has handled some past bets (most famously, the
            [฿10,000 bet between the Ponzi schemer pirateat40 & Vandroiy](https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?action=printpage;topic=91661.0
            "Putting your money where Pirate's mouth is")) and I believe can be trusted to
            escrow this one as well; he has agreed to a nominal fee of 1%.
            
            (I am not using Bets of Bitcoin because they have a dishonest &
            exploitative rule-set, and I am not sure
            [Predictious](https://www.predictious.com/) would allow these bets.)
            
            ## HOWTO
            
            If you disagree and are man enough to take our bets, post the amount you are
            betting on which bet, and Nanotube will supply an address for you to transfer
            your bitcoin to. When it arrives in his wallet, then our bet will be in effect.
            
            May the most accurate beliefs win.
            -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
            Version: GnuPG v1.4.15 (GNU/Linux)
            
            iEYEAREKAAYFAlJxi0MACgkQvpDo5Pfl1oItsgCeNP+6x01awoz678TjSB7jRWjZ
            xt8Ani0n6Hj5x+Q79ZGlsw7SlA5a9mCp
            =F4FQ
            -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
            

            [–]Alpheus411 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Mind if I steal your scam idea?

            [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

            Nanotube confirms his participation:

            -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
            Hash: SHA1
            
            Hereby confirming my role as arbiter and escrow for this bet via GPG signature. At the time of signing, I do not yet have the funds in my possession. --Nanotube
            
            Hi! I'm Gwern Branwen. You may remember me from such black-market webpages as Silk Road: Theory & Practice, and /r/silkroad. Today I'm here to talk to you about BlackMarket Reloaded & Sheep Marketplace.
            
            (A signed version of this 30 October 2013 post will be posted as a comment, because I wish to use Markdown formatting; my PGP key is available.)
            Background
            
            With the fall of SR, we're all very sad: it was a good site which performed a useful function. But life goes on, so it's no surprise we're all moving on to new black markets. That said, I am concerned by the accumulating pattern I am seeing around BMR and Sheep, and by the delusional optimism of many of the users.
            BMR
            
            BlackMarket Reloaded, since the fall, has been marked by a pattern of arrogance, technical incompetence, dismissal of problems, tolerance for sellers keep buyer addresses & issuing threats, astounding tolerance for information leaks (all the implementation information, and particularly the VPS incident with the user data leak; mirrors: 1, 2), etc. We know his code is shitty and smells like vulnerabilities (programmer in 3 different IRC channels I frequent quoted bits of the leaked code with a mixture of hilarity & horror), yet somehow backopy expects to rewrite it better, despite being the same person who wrote the first version and the basic security principle that new versions have lots of bugs. (I'm not actually bothered by the DoS attacks; they're issues for any site, much less hidden services.)
            
            And then there's the things he's not telling us. Atlantis shut down because they were worried about contacts from LE, and thus far this shut down seems to have saved them; but BMR has been around several times longer than Atlantis - would it not beggar belief if LE had not made contacts, attempted SR-style stings, or infiltrated BMR staff? And remember how we were able to discover all sorts of leaks in DPR's opsec once we had the indictment and knew what to look for? Or consider the claims being made about the Project Black Flag Leaks, where someone claims to have accessed laundry list of information from its internals - only after Metta DPR decided to rip-and-run. If this is what we see publicly for BMR, what on earth is going on behind the scenes?
            
            backopy should have handed on BMR weeks ago, but is still around. He seems to plan to repeat SR/DPR's mistakes exactly: leak information all over the place, never retire, and just keep on until he is busted and takes who-knows-how-many people down to prison with him. He has learned nothing. What, exactly, is his exit strategy? What goals does he have and when will they ever be satisfied? He has been running BMR for more than 2 years now, and has not left. How does this story end: of a man who does not know his limits, does not have ability equal to the task, and refuses to quit while he's ahead? It ends with a party-van, that's how it ends.
            
            And hardly anyone seems troubled by this! The BMR subreddit is full of bustle; people are even hailing backopy as a "hero" for allowing withdrawal of bitcoins. (How generous of him.)
            Sheep
            
            Is Sheep any better? No. BMR is troubled and probably infiltrated at this point, but Sheep may well be a dead market walking at this point. No one has a good word to say about its coding, so there may well be BMR-style issues in its future. More importantly: the veriest Google search would turn up that clearnet site, and it has been pointed out that the clearnet Czech site hosted by HexaGeek was uncannily similar to the actual hidden service. It uses almost the same exact technology, and the official explanation is that they had "fans" (fans? who set up, many months ago, before anyone gave a damn about Sheep, an entire functioning mirror while cloning the software stack and being in a foreign non-English-speaking country just like the Sheep admins?). Ridiculous! DPR may have set up a WordPress site, but at least 'altoid' didn't run an entire SR mirror! (He left that to onion.to & tor2web.org.). Sheep's likely about one subpoena of HexaGeek away from fun party times in the party-van.
            The Wager
            
            I am uninterested in seeing Sheep/BMR busted and lots of newbies caught because they can't appreciate the patterns here. People don't take mere criticism seriously, and even if I lay it all out like here, and I mention that I have an excellent track record of predictions, they still won't because anyone can doom-monger and issue warnings, it won't get through to them. I want to get through to them - I want them to understand the risks they're taking, I want them to reflexively use PGP, and I want them to leave balances on sites for as short a time as possible. So! I am putting my money where my mouth is.
            Bets
            
            I and 3 others are publicly wagering 4 BTC ($816 at today's rate), 1 BTC each, on the following 4 bets:
            
                BMR will not be operating in 6 months:
            
                25%; 1:3 (you risk ?3 and if BMR is still operating, you win our ?1, else you lose the ?3 to us)
            
                BMR will not be operating in 12 months
            
                40%; 1:1.5 (you risk ?1.5 & BMR is operating in a year, you win our ?1, else lose ?1.5)
            
                Sheep will not be operating in 6 months
            
                30%; 1:2.3 (your ?2.3 against our ?1)
            
                Sheep will not be operating in 12 months
            
                60%; 1:0.66 (you risk ?0.66 against our ?1)
            
            The 4 BTC are currently stored in 1AZvaBEJMiK8AJ5GvfvLWgHjWgL59TRPGy (proof of control: IOqEiWYWtYWFmJaKa29sOUqfMLrSWAWhHxqqB3bcVHuDpcn8rA0FkEqvRYmdgQO4yeXeNHtwr9NSqI9J79G+yPA= is the signature by 1Az of the string "This address contains bitcoins for the BMR/Sheep bet run by gwern.").
            Definitions
            
                BMR = kss62ljxtqiqdfuq.onion
                Sheep = sheep5u64fi457aw.onion
            
                The exact definition of 'not operating' includes but is not limited to this: on noon EST of 30 April 2013 (6-months) or 30 October 2014 (12-months), if Nanotube can visit the relevant black-market, create a buyer account, deposit bitcoins, and order an item, then the site is operating. If deposits or new accounts or purchases are not allowed or not possible, it is not operating.
            
                At his own discretion, the arbitrator can take into account other factors, like widespread reports that a market has been raided and turned into a sting operation.
            
            Escrow
            
            Arbitration & escrow are being provided by Nanotube, a long-time Bitcoin user & -otc trader, who has handled some past bets (most famously, the 10,000 BTC bet between the Ponzi schemer pirateat40 & Vandroiy) and I believe can be trusted to escrow this one as well; he has agreed to a nominal fee of 1% of the funds wagered.
            
            (I am not using Bets of Bitcoin because they have a dishonest & exploitative rule-set, and I am not sure Predictious would allow these bets.)
            HOWTO
            
            If you disagree and are man enough to take our bets, post the amount you are betting on which bet, and Nanotube will supply an address for you to transfer your bitcoin to. When it arrives in his wallet, then our bet will be in effect.
            
            May the most accurate beliefs win.
            -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
            
            iEYEARECAAYFAlJx1awACgkQ5/k4vslVlLKriQCfTNsanPg/j8eq7kTOet9bsJk7
            spsAni6Dykj3r3yYEp0CLndqV6EkKOf5
            =sAGA
            -----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
            

            (I have not sent Nanotube any funds yet because no one has seriously offered to bet.)

            [–]Zevee 0 points1 point  (1 child)

            Actually, I believe that you are right about sheep. Its down in 12months. I think BMR will last longer. Its almost as old as SR.

            [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

            Yeah, it started 7 June 2011 or something like that, and supposedly the original BlackMarket was even older than SR, but it's hard to find much info about it so hard to know what it was like. The longevity is one reason I rank it as safer than Sheep, but on the other hand, the longevity may not mean much - it was only after SR fell that the source code leak happened, suggesting that while "with enough eyes, all bugs are shallow" there were no eyes on BMR before and its longevity means less than one might think.

            [–][deleted]  (2 children)

            [deleted]

              [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              ...you're familiar with the idiom 'dead man walking', yes? Replace 'man' with 'market'.

              [–]tabgrab23 0 points1 point  (2 children)

              30 April 2013 (6-months)

              Should probably fix that if you want a legitimate bet.

              [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (1 child)

              I can't; if I edit the OP & the signed version to fix the typo s/2013/2014/, people will be all what is gwern hiding from us?! and so he is law enforcement, I told you so! and nice try scammer! - and I have had my fill of that already.

              No one who would actually bet is going to misunderstand it, so I'm not sweating it.

              [–]tabgrab23 0 points1 point  (0 children)

              Watch some desperate junkie make a bet and then claim you're trying to scam them based on that minor technicality/loophole :P

              [–][deleted]  (1 child)

              [deleted]

                [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Ok, any takers against this?

                So far no.

                [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                So far no one has seriously tried to bet with me. This offer isn't open forever, for the obvious reason that as time passes, the odds change; so I plan to shut this down on 6 November 2013 barring any news.

                Notes for potential betters:

                • the 'April 2013' part is a mistake; I obviously meant 'April 2014'
                • the URL in the definitions section for BMR is apparently already invalid; we will need to agree on additional BMR URLs or an objective source for the latest URL for Nanotube to use

                [–]c0rw1n 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                It's blindingly obvious that hosted sites with a (few) operator(s) are ROADKILL at launch.

                The only way an Internet marketplace can work is if it's completely peer-to-peer, where ALL the users are hosting it. And get paid to do so. (With commission fees, like a single operator would.)

                Seems that all the coders with the interest in black markets AND the skillz to make one are selfish greedy idiots who only see the LOLMILLIONS they can skim on sales, and go open sites that are hosted on machines they don't physically control. Then they get raidvanned.

                And now for something completely different, what's the uptime of Bittorrent, again?

                [–]caleborp 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I won't take this bet, but I would bet you that at least one underground market will be up and running at all times for buying and selling illegal goods. Eg. there will never be a time when there is not a black market accessible through tor.

                [–]btayloswishes he had a box after his name 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                "the arbitrator can take into account other factors, like widespread reports that a market has been raided and turned into a sting operation."

                Lol. . . fire up those hidden accounts and spark some rumours.

                [–]L3T 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I know we all assume that the feds want to shut down BMR and Sheep, but what if they dont?

                In australia we are seeing an unprecedented crack down on bikie gangs and organised crime, but seemingly relaxed state on SR like 'small purchases'. Originally there was a crack down and it was hard to get through our borders, but not in the last 6 months. Maybe stretching their resources too far, but sometimes I think they have finally been giving an unofficial 'green light' to allow the safer drug markets online than street level?

                I think DPR ruined it himself by getting involved with a hit and a large deal on 1kg of coke. Otherwise the authorites were interested and 'watching' this new experiment called Silk Road as a mock, legalised trial drug market place. THey would never admit to running one for themselves, but the government must admit to how attractive extra taxes from such sales would be. "But lets just keep it quiet for now and take a measley % of all sales as admins".

                [–]Bukujutsu 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                One to go!

                Does this count? I mean, it's still up, but it's a scam now (Sheep).

                [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                I'd say it counts. Remember, the criteria was that you could buy something, and if you log into Sheep and 'buy' something, it'll never arrive... I know people thought that criteria was a bit weird, but it was for scenarios like this!

                [–][deleted] 0 points1 point  (0 children)

                Guess you were right.

                [–]Gomba1 -1 points0 points  (5 children)

                I am putting my money where my mouth is.

                Doesn't that mean that you should be placing 3BTC against every 1BTC? (to prove how strongly you are sure in your theories, that i agree with personally)

                What you are offering is that people should put their money where your mouth is.

                [–]gwern[S] 2 points3 points  (4 children)

                Um... no? Do you understand how odds and probabilities work?

                [–]Gomba1 -1 points0 points  (3 children)

                m... no? Do you understand how odds and probabilities wo

                Yeah, But that's irrelevant for what i ment, i think that when someone offers to make a bet about a point they strongly believe in - the odds should be much more appealing to the other side.

                change the bet like that - anyone can place 1BTC if BMR/SHEEP will stay open after 6 months - they win 3BTC, and drop these technical stuff - open = not seized by LE or shut down publicly by the admin, regardless of domain change, temporary problems (DDos or whatever) or closure of registrations, and there you have an interesting bet :)

                [–]gwern[S] 2 points3 points  (2 children)

                the odds should be much more appealing to the other side.

                They are appealing - to optimists about the two services.

                change the bet like that - anyone can place 1BTC if BMR/SHEEP will stay open after 6 months - they win 3BTC

                That's a huge difference from the offered odds, and extremely pessimistic. I could not offer those odds and expect to break-even, much less make anything.

                and drop these technical stuff - open = not seized by LE or shut down publicly by the admin, regardless of domain change, temporary problems (DDos or whatever) or closure of registrations, and there you have an interesting bet :)

                No, with those changes, you'd have a terrible ill-defined bet which will probably end in bickering as the losers try to argue that really they won the bet.

                [–]Gomba1 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                fference from the offered odds, and extremely pessimistic. I could not offer those odds and expect to break-even, much less make anything.

                Obviously that was an example, but do consider some change in the odds, it will be shame if there were no takers because of this.

                to optimists about the two serves. Guess your right, but I find it hard to believe there are people willing to put their money about that in less than a month after SR... That alone, will be amazing to see, i think that even backopy would not bet on that :)

                [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                but do consider some change in the odds, it will be shame if there were no takers because of this.

                All the serious people seem to want too generous odds. I'd rather do no bets at the right odds then bet $800 at the wrong odds.

                [–]exessmirror 0 points1 point  (2 children)

                I thought BMR would be busted 2 weeks ago (meaning they are operating 2 weeks after the time i thought they would be busted)

                And sheep just sucks, i give it 3 months

                [–]gwern[S] 0 points1 point  (1 child)

                That's a pretty aggressive timeline, IMO. Even if Sheep's host was subpoenad after the clearnet server was pointed out publicly, I could see it easily taking more than 3 months to sort out all the details, image the server, start building a case against the more vulnerable Sheep sellers, etc. For example, SR was imaged in, what was it, June? And the bust took another 3 months to be launched.

                [–]exessmirror 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                Sheep wont be busted, it will blow up and take your money before they get busted. If it wont 18 months for LE will bust it

                [–]DarknetWanderer -2 points-1 points  (1 child)

                Fuck your stupid bet, you say you "bet" they're down in a year, but you give the odds at less than 50/50. Anyone taking that bet would have to be very naïve to trust the coin will still be there in a year, and who knows what the value of bitcoin will even be then.

                Besides, who gives a fuck how secure they are? Have you heard of PGP? Unless you're using your real name as your username I'm not sure how it matters. It's simple. Don't keep bitcoins in the site any longer than absolutely necessary, and use PGP. Be diligent in how you purchase and transfer your bitcoins and don't take unnecessary risks.

                [–]gwern[S] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

                you say you "bet" they're down in a year, but you give the odds at less than 50/50

                Which is higher than a lot of people give it by their actions.

                Anyone taking that bet would have to be very naïve to trust the coin will still be there in a year

                The point of escrow is that you don't have to be naive. The coin will still be there in a year.

                who knows what the value of bitcoin will even be then.

                What happens to your concern about the funds being stolen? Bitcoin can be escrowed easily, fiat cannot. If one is hugely worried that Bitcoin will go 'to the moon' and one will lose, then if one bets 1 bitcoin - buy a second bitcoin! It's not that hard.

                Besides, who gives a fuck how secure they are?

                Everyone who lost funds and sent messages in the clear - just for starters.

                Have you heard of PGP?

                I believe I have demonstrated that I have. More importantly, we know that most people are not using PGP despite all well-meaning cursing and exhortation like yours.

                [–]canwegoback -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                Nominated for worst thread /r/silkroad 2013

                [–]kernowgringo -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                What a dick.

                [–][deleted] -4 points-3 points  (0 children)

                fuck BMR and sheep, i bet 40BTC your mom dies within a year