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all 60 comments

[–]maximumjackrussell 22 points23 points  (1 child)

Once again, I want to thank you for this fascinating series of posts.

Having been to Singapore, and worked alongside a handful of Chinese Singaporeans, I've seen first-hand some of the issues the country faces in terms of demographics. Three of the four Singaporeans I've known on a first-name basis were female, and all of them are now in their mid-30s and are child-less. They are all university educated.

However, I'm pleased to see that maintaining the demographic balance is apparently seen as a priority in terms of the country's immigration policy. That seems to be a rational approach to a diverse population that doesn't have enough children. But in the long run, raising the birthrate at home would seem to be the best solution.

The influence of the English language is certainly a double-edged sword. It helps the country in terms of business and tourism, but it also allows for the less tasteful aspects of "Anglo American" culture to impact Singapore immediately, whether it be politics or mass consumer culture. Overall I think LKY (as ever) took the most pragmatic path possible when deciding the state's language policy, but there was certainly a cost involved.

[–]Latias876 13 points14 points  (2 children)

As a Singaporean, I 100% agree that learning and excelling at both languages is extremely hard. It's pretty much preferential treatment. People who are good at English don't like learning Chinese and people who are good at Chinese don't like learning English. If you're average at both, students are of the opinion that they can still make it in life.

Of course, if you're bad at your mothertongue, you're considered a disgrace, and if you're bad at English, you're considered an embarrassment. I had always been extremely jealous of those people who get exempted from taking mother tongue.

Overall however, I'd say that the English-speaking level here is higher than the Chinese, given how difficult the language is. There are people who are good at both, but they're super rare. They're like gods amongst us lowly mortals.

[–]TracingWoodgrainsFirst, do no harm[S] 5 points6 points  (1 child)

Thanks for the additional insights into how this all looks on the ground! It's hard to know how accurate what I say is when I'm going based only off LKY's writing and my limited experience, so it helps a lot to hear your perspective on this stuff.

[–]Latias876 5 points6 points  (0 children)

No problem! To be honest, I'd always regarded Singapore as a country that nobody knows as we're very tiny. I was really stunned when I came across these threads you had made and how everybody who had commented has a decent picture of what Singapore is like. It made me really happy! w^

[–]Looking_round 13 points14 points  (0 children)

Once again, I cannot but give encore to this review. I very much look forward to the last and final part.

While I wanted to wait until you finished your review before we dive into a comparison, I cannot help but add that, as much as LKY had put into place some brilliant policies, some of them later came back to bite him and he was very much the architect of his own problems.

The birthrate one was a great example, but I will wait until you are done.

[–]DrManhattan16 28 points29 points  (26 children)

The more I read of LKY, the more I'm convinced, ironically, that the liberal democracy he doesn't particularly care for is the right way to go.

Almost all of his policies, I feel, were taken from developed nations who had done the brunt of the work in seeing what effects those policies had. The man was an incredible politician, no doubt, but it's easy to be the tyrant who makes the right policies when you can just copy what other nations have done and lived with throughout history. It worked, obviously, but that he's famous for it strikes me as missing the shoulders of the giants he stood on to make Singapore developed.

[–]SchizoSocialClub[Tin Man is the Overman] 24 points25 points  (1 child)

The man was an incredible politician, no doubt, but it's easy to be the tyrant who makes the right policies when you can just copy what other nations have done and lived with throughout history.

Most tyrants fail even at copying.

[–]DrManhattan16 5 points6 points  (0 children)

He was smart, unlike many in similar positions. It worked in Singapore's favor, but he could easily have been a literal dictator.

[–]Atersed 22 points23 points  (5 children)

I don't think that makes sense. With hindsight, it's easy to say LKY picked good policies, but to copy liberal democracies wholesale would have caused the country to become one. Clearly some picking and choosing was involved, and this is where credit should be given. There are policies antithetical to liberal democracies, like a controlled media, and there are policies that are quite novel, like mandatory saving plans. IMO I think he just makes it look easy.

[–]DrManhattan16 12 points13 points  (4 children)

No, I think even then you could say those were good policies. LKY had clearly seen how useful the West's policies were in generating wealth and developing a nation. He was a graduate of the London School of Economics. He was, in essence, able to skip the trial and error approach of those nations and directly apply those policies for Singapore. He had the luxury of choosing which policies he could take, but he would never have known which ones were necessary unless the evidence already existed.

LKY was a political force. There's no way to deny it. He took Singapore by storm and changed it from a backward nation to one of the best in the world. But he had the benefit of being able to learn from literally 150+ years of trial and error.

[–]Barry_Cotter 23 points24 points  (3 children)

If being a well educated graduate of the LSE lead to good choices in economic development all of former British India would be at least as rich as Mexico by now. I doubt Pakistan was too much different but India was basically run by members of the Fabian Society for decades after independence as far as economic policy was concerned. This dynamic is replicated all over the former British Empire, of university educated elites, convinced by the economics they learned at Cambridge, the LSE and I presume Oxford, and pissing away decades of potential growth on industrial policy, export replacement, import substitution and other policies that didn’t work.

Lee may have had the benefit of learning from 150+ years of trial and error but so did everyone else and he was the only one to come so close to perfect economic policy.

[–]Fiestaman 0 points1 point  (1 child)

Your comment doesn't make sense to me. The Raj was founded when capitalism was in its infancy and ended well before questions regarding maximizing economic development developed any form of consensus amongst economists.

To sum, LKY was able to draw on 150+ years of trial and error, including being able to draw from the failures and successes of the Raj and its socialist successor.

[–]Barry_Cotter 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Singapore is a success in terms of economic growth. Former British India isn’t. We can judge this by their relative growth levels. Given that they had the same colonizer the difference is not there.

I’m not comparing the Raj to Singapore; I’m pointing out that of the former British colonies that gained independence after WW2 Singapore is by far the most successful at improving the standard of living of its people. LKY didn’t just do better than India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Burma and Sri Lanka. He did better than every single other British colony.

Everyone else had access to the same knowledge LKY did. He succeeded to an extent no one else did.

[–]DrManhattan16 0 points1 point  (0 children)

I didn't say that was all of it. Obviously, LKY's capitalist sympathies helped as well.

[–]Gossage_Vardebedian 16 points17 points  (6 children)

Well, if it's easy, then why has no other tyrant, or no other political body, implemented the right policies? I think you don't give him enough credit for his foresight and intelligence.

Anyway, I don't think he's famous simply for knowing what the right policies were. He's famous for having the brilliance and the balls to implement them.

[–]DrManhattan16 10 points11 points  (5 children)

Sure they have! China in the 80s liberalized its economy under Deng Xiaopeng after seeing that it was working for the West. But the difference between them and LKY was ideology. They wouldn't give up power, while LKY would do anything to develop Singapore.

Sure, he was able to implement them, but one butterfly and he could have been another Lenin, bringing the Communist "utopia" to Singapore by avoiding industrialization.

[–]LetsStayCivilized 13 points14 points  (2 children)

China in the 80s liberalized its economy under Deng Xiaopeng after seeing that it was working for the West.

Nitpick, but I think that "after seeing what was working in Japan and Korea" would be more accurate.

[–]brberg 7 points8 points  (1 child)

And Hong Kong, and (though they'll never admit it) Taiwan?

[–]LetsStayCivilized 8 points9 points  (0 children)

Taiwan most likely yes; and I was going to say that policies in a merchant city-state like Hong Kong wouldn't be very generalizable to a country like China, but actually, the special economic zones like Shanghai and Shenzhen are exactly the kind of things you'd do if you wanted to learn from Hong Kong.

[–]atgabara 2 points3 points  (1 child)

China in the 80s liberalized its economy under Deng Xiaopeng after seeing that it was working for the West.

More like, after seeing that it was working for Singapore: https://www.ozy.com/flashback/when-singapore-schooled-china-in-making-money/88149

Within a month of Deng’s visit to Singapore, he had seized control of China from the reform-wary Hua. Deng then began the pragmatic era of “socialism with Chinese characteristics.” He started by decollectivizing agriculture and moved on to attracting foreign capital, à la Singapore. He introduced special economic zones for businesses to operate in relatively free from bureaucracy. Tens of thousands of Chinese officials headed off to Singapore to continue studying its system. “Singapore’s social order is rather good. Its leaders exercise strict management. We should learn from their experience, and we should do a better job than they do,” Deng said in 1992 during an inspection tour of southern China.

“The ideas that Deng Xiaoping formed, if he had not come here and seen the Western multinationals in Singapore producing wealth for us … then he might never have opened up,” said Lee in Tom Plate’s Giants of Asia: Conversations With Lee Kuan Yew.

LKY's success and influence should not be understated.

[–]DrManhattan16 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Doesn't really matter. The point is that they did so after seeing it work.

[–]t3tsuboIANYL 6 points7 points  (0 children)

I think the principle criticism of LKY's policies w.r.t. whether they are the right way to go is still valid, that being you don't know how effective or feasible they are at a much wider scale. Singapore is tiny - and the solutions and enforcement and implementation of these policies is much different than say, if an even moderately larger country like Malaysia let alone Canada/USA tried doing it.

[–]ReaperReader 4 points5 points  (1 child)

I dunno, the more I learn of history the more I think political problems require local solutions. E.g. the UK took decades to find a peace settlement for Northern Ireland, despite the long experience of peace in Britain.

[–]DrManhattan16 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Oh sure, Federalism is the way to go. That doesn't doesn't mean liberal democracy isn't the better government system.

[–]dedicating_ruckusadvanced form of sarcasm 8 points9 points  (7 children)

Singapore moved, as the title of the book suggests, "from third world to first" over the course of like thirty years. Quite obviously, he copied most of his successful policies; he was recapitulating the development of the first-world countries at hyperspeed.

It's less "he copied policies from liberal democracies" and more "he copied policies from more-developed countries". The fact that these more-developed countries were mostly liberal democracies is just historical contingency.

[–]DrManhattan16 5 points6 points  (4 children)

Is it though? Economic freedom and political freedom go hand in hand; you can't have one without the other. Consider that he could also have gone to the communist model, seeing as how the USSR was "equal" to the U.S in the eyes of many, and they would have had no problem sending him political advisors and technology in exchange for his being in their sphere.

That the most developed (and I mean truly developed, not hiding behind an information blackout like the USSR or Communist China) were also liberal democracies is not a coincidence.

[–]dedicating_ruckusadvanced form of sarcasm 7 points8 points  (3 children)

Economic freedom and political freedom go hand in hand; you can't have one without the other.

This is an article of faith, and a false one at that. Look at modern PRC.

[–]DrManhattan16 3 points4 points  (1 child)

Yes, a nation defined by powerful state control over the economy and politics. They've gotten rich by providing a billion low wage workers and little in the name of worker safety/rights, but it can't last. Sooner or later, China is going to discover that you can't just steal IP and offer labor to continue growing. They'll be strong when that moment happens, but it will happen. Maybe they'll resort to bread and circuses, but I find this unlikely with how large their population is.

[–]Barry_Cotter 5 points6 points  (0 children)

Is Democracy Doomed?

Acemoglu et al. write:

Our estimates imply that a country that transitions from nondemocracy to democracy achieves about 20 percent higher GDP per capita in the next 25 years than a country that remains a nondemocracy

In other words, if the average nondemocracy in their sample had transitioned to a democracy its GDP per capita would have increased from $2074 to $2489 in 25 years (i.e. this is the causal effect of democracy, ignoring other factors changing over time). Twenty percent is better than nothing and better than dictatorship but it’s weak tea. GDP per capita in the United States is about 20% higher than in Sweden, Denmark or Germany and 40% higher than in France but I don’t see a big demand in those countries to adopt US practices. Indeed, quite the opposite! If we want countries to adopt democracy, twenty percent higher GDP in 25 years is not a big carrot.

Based on Democracy Does Cause Growth, Acemoglu et al

We provide evidence that democracy has a positive effect on GDP per capita. Our dynamic panel strategy controls for country fixed effects and the rich dynamics of GDP, which otherwise confound the effect of democracy. To reduce measurement error, we introduce a new indi- cator of democracy that consolidates previous measures. Our baseline results show that democratizations increase GDP per capita by about 20 percent in the long run. We find similar effects using a propensity score reweighting strategy as well as an instrumental-variables strategy using regional waves of democratization. The effects are similar across different levels of development and appear to be driven by greater in- vestments in capital, schooling, and health.

[–]lunaranusphysiognomist of the mind 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Examining the Hayek–Friedman hypothesis on economic and political freedom

This paper examines empirically the hypothesis made famous by Nobel Laureates Friedrich A. Hayek and Milton Friedman that societies with high levels of political freedom must also have high levels of economic freedom. In our judgment, the Hayek–Friedman hypothesis holds up fairly well to historical scrutiny. Using data on economic and political freedom for a sample of up to 123 nations back as far as 1970, we find relatively few instances of societies combining relatively high political freedom without relatively high levels of economic freedom. In addition, we find that these cases are diminishing over time. Finally, we examine several cases of countries on different economic and political freedom journeys.

Characterizing the modern PRC as high on economic freedom is rather misleading, I'd say. Certainly freer than it used to be, but there are still significant limits.

[–]TheColourOfHeartache 0 points1 point  (1 child)

The fact that these more-developed countries were mostly liberal democracies is just historical contingency.

I don't think it's a coincidence that all the successful countries with good policies worth copying were liberal democracies (or had been copying from liberal democracies)

[–]dedicating_ruckusadvanced form of sarcasm 2 points3 points  (0 children)

Singapore was a British colony. They mostly copied from the Anglosphere. Because of Britain and the US, these Anglosphere countries were mostly liberal democracies.

This is entirely plausible as contingency rather than causality. It really doesn't need to be that big of a coincidence.

[–][deleted]  (1 child)

[deleted]

    [–]right-folded 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    In hindsight it looks like a pretty dumb mistake, doesn't it? I mean, he could just talk to a couple of women...

    [–]Lazar_Taxon 7 points8 points  (2 children)

    On the topic of language politics, does he dwell on the Speak Mandarin Campaign?

    [–]TracingWoodgrainsFirst, do no harm[S] 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Yes, he goes into it for a couple pages. My internet’s not working on the computer with my notes and I’d rather not retype it, but once that’s back up I’ll share the notes I took for that section.

    [–]TracingWoodgrainsFirst, do no harm[S] 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    (update: turns out I didn't take as many notes there as I remembered. I'll aim to stick a quick write-up in the comments of my next in the series since it would be pretty buried here at this point)

    [–]aptmnt_ 13 points14 points  (1 child)

    Would love a parallel series that used a less biased source than the man’s own biography and actively challenged LKY’s claims.

    [–]TracingWoodgrainsFirst, do no harm[S] 22 points23 points  (0 children)

    Me too! I think there would be a lot of fascinating material to work with for it. It should be clear that my goal is largely to present LKY at he presents himself, not give a detached accounting of Singapore’s history. I do present a few challenges in the next section, but not nearly as many as I’m sure a reader who disagreed more could.

    That said, it’s worth noting that one reason I started this was the observation that Singapore does really, really well by a lot of objective measures. So for example, you can read in his autobiography about his efforts to stamp out corruption, then check words metrics and... yep, third least corrupt country in the world. I think a lot of his claims stand up well under pressure, but I’d love to see someone informed in the subject point out areas where they don’t.

    [–]halftrainedmule 6 points7 points  (4 children)

    About the demographics: I'm wonder if he tried subsidizing childcare and even subsidizing immigration into childcare jobs? Regulation that aims to remove pitfalls and stumbling blocks out of parents' paths? (I'm talking of things like liabilities in the West, and the high cost of living near a good school in the US; but I would expect Singapore to have some of its own.) Counteracting the economic losses that employers incur when workers take parental leave?

    Also, if you diagnose the problem as "women marrying up, men marrying down", it seems strange to start the cure with the men. The best you'll achieve is men raising their standards, hence even fewer marriages. (Which appears to be exactly what has happened in the West.) As I'm sure I'm not the first to notice, this kind of bias towards men-centered approaches is in itself a sign that you aren't quite ascribing agency to women.

    [–]GeneralExtension 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    First: Provide preferential school selection for children of graduate mothers who have at least three kids. He mentioned expecting nongraduate mothers to be angry at being discriminated against. Instead, graduate mothers rose up against the change, saying things like:

    "I am deeply insulted by the suggestion that some miserable financial incentives will make me jump into bed with the first attractive man I meet and proceed to produce a highly talented child for the sake of Singapore's future." (137)

    That...doesn't look like the mistake he made?

    [–]GeneralExtension 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    About the demographics: I'm wonder if he tried subsidizing childcare and even subsidizing immigration into childcare jobs? Regulation that aims to remove pitfalls and stumbling blocks out of parents' paths? (I'm talking of things like liabilities in the West, and the high cost of living near a good school in the US; but I would expect Singapore to have some of its own.) Counteracting the economic losses that employers incur when workers take parental leave?

    This does sound like a better idea - though that's with the benefit of hindsight:

    Removing downsides in place of adding conditional upsides.

    [–]FirmWeird 1 point2 points  (1 child)

    subsidizing immigration into childcare jobs?

    What exactly do you mean here? Do you mean bringing in more immigrants as long as they work in childcare, encouraging people to shift into the childcare field or what?

    [–]halftrainedmule 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    bringing in more immigrants as long as they work in childcare

    Yep. (Though it will end up cross-subsidizing immigration into other jobs as well, as it's usually the women in the family who take childcare jobs. Still a lot better than random push-immigration with no skill discrimination whatsoever.)

    [–]dedicating_ruckusadvanced form of sarcasm 6 points7 points  (0 children)

    its own satisfying twist on English

    That wiki page mentions a movement against the Singlish creole in favor of standard English, the "Speak Good English Movement". All I can think is it would be so much more satisfying if it were the "Speak English Good Movement".

    [–]thedarklyblue 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    After parts 1 and 2 I was much looking forward to hearing what he thought of birthrate, and was not disappointed. Or maybe I was a bit disappointed by the quality of his analysis, as blaming low birthrate and highly educated women not having large families on prejudice of men sounds more like something politically correct western media would conclude (and I think concludes today still if the topic of men not marrying better educated women comes up). Maybe facts warranted that conclusion in Singapore at the time of his rule. Also it is hard to imagine that someone would hope to reverse such global trends with rather trivial interventions like preferred school selection or a match-making service sponsored by government. Perhaps those were about the strongest interventions possible at the time, and by sound of it they proved stronger than what was really possible within the limits of political realities. And maybe there's an alternative timeline where these interventions and discussions around them raise awareness and indirectly lead to different choices without fundamentally altering incentives.

    [–]Looking_round 18 points19 points  (0 children)

    No. In my memories, there was definitely a component of graduate men not wanting to be with graduate women during that era. There was a feeling that the women would challenge the men's authority in a relationship and Singapore at that time was still culturally conservative enough at that time for that to matter.

    Does that mean that if the graduate men started accepting graduate women that the women would then have a relationship and solve the birthrate in the right places problem? (Because, you have to understand, it wasn't a birthrate issue. It was the undesirables having children issue) Probably not, since women prefer to marry up. But that did not mean the men were not complicit in that.

    [–]daermonnwould have n+1 beers with you 8 points9 points  (0 children)

    Just want to echo the praise for this series -- excellent work, much appreciated. I bought the book but have yet to crack it. I'd also be very interested in the adversarial series mentioned above.

    [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    Great write up. I really need to read this book.

    [–]TheColourOfHeartache 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Regarding the birth rate, I wonder if the most pure example of

    Will a policy increase the standard of living in the country? Will it make the citizens more self-sufficient, more capable, or safer? Ultimately, does it work? Oh, and does it make everybody furious?

    would be to institute mass cloning?

    [–]t3tsuboIANYL 6 points7 points  (7 children)

    I sincerely doubt that its impossible to master two languages at the same level, or that bilingualism was a mistake. In this vein, Malaysia might be even more successful than Singapore in that their students and graduates are often tri or quad lingual. I've never met a Chinese Malaysian who didnt speak at least English, Malay and Mando or Canto.

    [–][deleted] 16 points17 points  (1 child)

    it's not impossible, but it does take a lot of work to maintain if you won't live where its spoken. and even in multicultural places like singapore, or a household where they speak two languages, it kinda blends into its one thing where you start mixing languages.

    [–]t3tsuboIANYL 7 points8 points  (0 children)

    True, in a way you need monolingual people in order to facilitate bilingualism or trilingualism I guess. I know I don't speak my mother tongue very often or at all anymore, but the few occasions where I have to (monolingual extended family) it comes out just as naturally and fluently as it did when I used it regularly in my childhood.

    [–]TracingWoodgrainsFirst, do no harm[S] 16 points17 points  (3 children)

    Bilingualism in a general sense isn’t too hard. English/Chinese bilingualism (or Japanese, or Korean) is very, very tough to reach near-native proficiency in both at. I’ve only met a handful of people at that level out of hundreds of overseas students, teachers, and others who have put serious effort into learning (in either direction). Which isn’t to say it’s impossible, or not worth trying, or anything like that—but it does come with more tradeoffs than I (or LKY) hoped.

    Malaysia does seem to be unusually successful at creating trilingual citizens.

    [–]t3tsuboIANYL 2 points3 points  (2 children)

    Really? That's not been my experience whatsoever. Most of the Canadian/american born chinese friends and colleagues are all fluent in both Mando/canto and English. My experience with the overseas students from Hong Kong or Singapore/Malaysia is the same, although obviously they have some quirks with their English that make it different (but Jo less fluent) than what we're used to.

    [–]S18656IFL 9 points10 points  (1 child)

    Do you really know how proficient they are in Mando/canto?

    As another example, I'm from Sweden and everyone born after 1970 is bi-lingual and Swedes generally have a reputation of speaking very good English. On the other hand my impression is that people are very overconfident in their ability of mastering two languages (even two as closely related as English and Swedish). They believe they are fluent in them both at a native level but they really are not.

    They are fluent in a subsection of the language and are able to fool others (and often themselves) that they are truly bilingual(partially through good pronunciation), but as soon as they venture outside of their comfort zone they realise that they in-fact are not fluent at all, failing to know the words of common kitchen utensils for example.

    Also, people are rapidly getting worse at Swedish as English becomes ever more prominent. As it is only people interested in language really care about this but it should be noticeable to most of the older people.

    Seeing as Swedish and English almost are dialects of the same language (See=se, are=är, dialects= dialekter, of=av, same=samma), I can only imagine how difficult it must be to maintain true bilingualism with languages as different as English and Mandarin.

    [–]t3tsuboIANYL 3 points4 points  (0 children)

    I guess it depends on your definition of "native level". My colleagues are all able to communicate with business clients in both languages. I'm sure there are some english/chinese idioms they aren't familiar with though.

    [–]jaghataikhan 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    I suspect what he considers "mastery" is far higher than my (admittedly lax) standards haha

    [–]tell-a-phone 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Not sure if this is relevant. What do you think causes this racial segregation (I mean, without government intervention, these people who segregate themselves)? Is it a British colonial hangover? The same can be seen in Malaysia but not much in countries like Thailand, Indonesia and the Philippines where the segregation is more of class-based than race based, and the Chinese population adopt the indigenous languages

    Or is it the mere size of the Chinese population relative to the native population?

    [–]Klarth_Koken 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Some marginally relevant anecdotes:

    In inter-varsity competitive debating in the UK I have known a couple of Singaporean debaters (studying at British universities) who both, separately, set at the first tournament for which they were in charge of the motions a debate on subsidising educated people having children.

    LKY's grandson Shengwu Li was also very involved in debating while he was at Oxford (he is not one of the two mentioned above) and was known as one of the best debaters of his time; he's now an academic economist in America. I believe the government of Singapore is currently suing him for calling them litigious (and describing the court system as 'pliant'). It seems to be part of a family split where two of LKY's children have been critical of some decisions by the third, who is currently prime minister - this has been in the news but I am only aware of the story because I know Shengwu in passing and we have lots of mutual friends and acquaintances.