Silk Road forums
Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: ghostchili on June 22, 2013, 04:37 am
-
Obviously, this should be the biggest deal to us!
In case you've been under a rock, Snowden leaked NSA details that showed a violation in our privacy (they have no limits basically). They're monitoring EVERYTHING!
It's upsetting me, because a lot of my friends believe the government and that he's a "threat." The worst thing to say right now is, "I'm not worried, I have nothing to hide..."
Obviously, a lot of us in here have more to hide than others. What I worry about is the government using all of this information it's gathering to target whistle-blowers, political dissidents, and political rivals.
Say there's a person trying to shine light on corruption in the government. Well, let's check their phone records from our database. Interesting. There are a number of midnight phone calls to a psychiatrist. Or, there are a number of phone calls to a woman / escort service. Isn't he married? Well this might prove useful to shut him up.
This kind of power corrupts the entire system, which is why the 4th amendment was created in the first place.
A great argument I read on reddit was in the comments from one member:
I live in a country generally assumed to be a dictatorship. One of the Arab spring countries. I have lived through curfews and have seen the outcomes of the sort of surveillance now being revealed in the US. People here talking about curfews aren't realizing what that actually FEELS like. It isn't about having to go inside, and the practicality of that. It's about creating the feeling that everyone, everything is watching. A few points:
1) the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists. People who are coalescing around ideas that would destabilize the status quo. These could be religious ideas. These could be groups like anon who are too good with tech for the governments liking. It makes it very easy to know who these people are. It also makes it very simple to control these people.
Lets say you are a college student and you get in with some people who want to stop farming practices that hurt animals. So you make a plan and go to protest these practices. You get there, and wow, the protest is huge. You never expected this, you were just goofing off. Well now everyone who was there is suspect. Even though you technically had the right to protest, you're now considered a dangerous person.
With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
2) Let's say number one goes on. The country is a weird place now. Really weird. Pretty soon, a movement springs up like occupy, except its bigger this time. People are really serious, and they are saying they want a government without this power. I guess people are realizing that it is a serious deal. You see on the news that tear gas was fired. Your friend calls you, frantic. They're shooting people. Oh my god. you never signed up for this. You say, fuck it. My dad might lose his job but I won't be responsible for anyone dying. That's going too far. You refuse to report anymore. You just stop going to meetings. You stay at home, and try not to watch the news. Three days later, police come to your door and arrest you. They confiscate your computer and phones, and they beat you up a bit. No one can help you so they all just sit quietly. They know if they say anything they're next. This happened in the country I live in. It is not a joke.
3) Its hard to say how long you were in there. What you saw was horrible. Most of the time, you only heard screams. People begging to be killed. Noises you've never heard before. You, you were lucky. You got kicked every day when they threw your moldy food at you, but no one shocked you. No one used sexual violence on you, at least that you remember. There were some times they gave you pills, and you can't say for sure what happened then. To be honest, sometimes the pills were the best part of your day, because at least then you didn't feel anything. You have scars on you from the way you were treated. You learn in prison that torture is now common. But everyone who uploads videos or pictures of this torture is labeled a leaker. Its considered a threat to national security. Pretty soon, a cut you got on your leg is looking really bad. You think it's infected. There were no doctors in prison, and it was so overcrowded, who knows what got in the cut. You go to the doctor, but he refuses to see you. He knows if he does the government can see the records that he treated you. Even you calling his office prompts a visit from the local police.
You decide to go home and see your parents. Maybe they can help. This leg is getting really bad. You get to their house. They aren't home. You can't reach them no matter how hard you try. A neighbor pulls you aside, and he quickly tells you they were arrested three weeks ago and haven't been seen since. You vaguely remember mentioning to them on the phone you were going to that protest. Even your little brother isn't there.
4) Is this even really happening? You look at the news. Sports scores. Celebrity news. It's like nothing is wrong. What the hell is going on? A stranger smirks at you reading the paper. You lose it. You shout at him "fuck you dude what are you laughing at can't you see I've got a fucking wound on my leg?"
"Sorry," he says. "I just didn't know anyone read the news anymore." There haven't been any real journalists for months. They're all in jail.
Everyone walking around is scared. They can't talk to anyone else because they don't know who is reporting for the government. Hell, at one time YOU were reporting for the government. Maybe they just want their kid to get through school. Maybe they want to keep their job. Maybe they're sick and want to be able to visit the doctor. It's always a simple reason. Good people always do bad things for simple reasons.
You want to protest. You want your family back. You need help for your leg. This is way beyond anything you ever wanted. It started because you just wanted to see fair treatment in farms. Now you're basically considered a terrorist, and everyone around you might be reporting on you. You definitely can't use a phone or email. You can't get a job. You can't even trust people face to face anymore. On every corner, there are people with guns. They are as scared as you are. They just don't want to lose their jobs. They don't want to be labeled as traitors.
This all happened in the country where I live.
You want to know why revolutions happen? Because little by little by little things get worse and worse. But this thing that is happening now is big. This is the key ingredient. This allows them to know everything they need to know to accomplish the above. The fact that they are doing it is proof that they are the sort of people who might use it in the way I described. In the country I live in, they also claimed it was for the safety of the people. Same in Soviet Russia. Same in East Germany. In fact, that is always the excuse that is used to surveil everyone. But it has never ONCE proven to be the reality.
Maybe Obama won't do it. Maybe the next guy won't, or the one after him. Maybe this story isn't about you. Maybe it happens 10 or 20 years from now, when a big war is happening, or after another big attack. Maybe it's about your daughter or your son. We just don't know yet. But what we do know is that right now, in this moment we have a choice. Are we okay with this, or not? Do we want this power to exist, or not?
You know for me, the reason I'm upset is that I grew up in school saying the pledge of allegiance. I was taught that the United States meant "liberty and justice for all." You get older, you learn that in this country we define that phrase based on the constitution. That's what tells us what liberty is and what justice is. Well, the government just violated that ideal. So if they aren't standing for liberty and justice anymore, what are they standing for? Safety?
Ask yourself a question. In the story I told above, does anyone sound safe?
I didn't make anything up. These things happened to people I know. We used to think it couldn't happen in America. But guess what? It's starting to happen.
I actually get really upset when people say "I don't have anything to hide. Let them read everything." People saying that have no idea what they are bringing down on their own heads. They are naive, and we need to listen to people in other countries who are clearly telling us that this is a horrible horrible sign and it is time to stand up and say no.
-
We have talked about it.
-
i really dont understand why people are surprised w/ the level of surveillance- the USA and UK have been eavesdropping on all communication for decades-FOR DECADES- its called project echelon- and sorry to have awoken you from your slumber, but its hardly news-
This. Dude is just a pasty white nerd who wanted to become famous by reminding us what we all already knew, or should have known.
-
I understand the people on these forums maybe more educated with regards to this sort of news but please do not assume that just because you know a thing or two that the same applies to the general public. It really is ignorant of people to say things like "i really don't understand why people are surprised" or "reminding us what we all already knew". Some people just do not have a clue what sort of thing the government does behind closed doors and it is important that this news reaches out to a wider audience. It may be "old news" to some of you, it certainly is for me; but to some this is a revelation!
-
I understand the people on these forums maybe more educated with regards to this sort of news but please do not assume that just because you know a thing or two that the same applies to the general public. It really is ignorant of people to say things like "i really don't understand why people are surprised" or "reminding us what we all already knew". Some people just do not have a clue what sort of thing the government does behind closed doors and it is important that this news reaches out to a wider audience. It may be "old news" to some of you, it certainly is for me; but to some this is a revelation!
If this is a revelation, then first, let us welcome you to the modern era. Computers are powerful machines that most Americans either own or have access. You might not have heard of "Big Data", or the NSA, yet, so I recommend doing some reading. Also, you may want to look at world history. This has happened since human tribes formed societies... all the way back to the Babylonians and Egyptians.
On second thought, how do you have a high school degree and not know this?
-
There is NOTHING that can wake up the American people, this should have been it....spies living among us...are you fucking kidding me?!
If that doesnt make the people rise up then nothing will.
I am interested about this case but ill wait til the next big break in it, like when he goes to trial or 'kills himself'
There is also another thread with a discussion about him.
-
I understand the people on these forums maybe more educated with regards to this sort of news but please do not assume that just because you know a thing or two that the same applies to the general public. It really is ignorant of people to say things like "i really don't understand why people are surprised" or "reminding us what we all already knew". Some people just do not have a clue what sort of thing the government does behind closed doors and it is important that this news reaches out to a wider audience. It may be "old news" to some of you, it certainly is for me; but to some this is a revelation!
If this is a revelation, then first, let us welcome you to the modern era. Computers are powerful machines that most Americans either own or have access. You might not have heard of "Big Data", or the NSA, yet, so I recommend doing some reading. Also, you may want to look at world history. This has happened since human tribes formed societies... all the way back to the Babylonians and Egyptians.
On second thought, how do you have a high school degree and not know this?
Seriously? WTF?! Please read the last sentence again. No, read my entire post again... FFS
-
Read a book, FFS!
-
If my writing style confused you, which it clearly has, i am in no way saying that i didn't know about these things... in fact i clearly stated that this is old news to me but not necessarily others. I have a degree in computing so these things i read about all day... but others don't. THAT'S what i am saying!
-
This. Dude is just a pasty white nerd who wanted to become famous by reminding us what we all already knew, or should have known.
I think thats incredibly unfair, he has essentially ended his life/given up his freedom by leaking this info. It was not a selfish reason this info was released, it was out of selflessness. And whilst you as well as many others have assumed this was going on in governments, you most definately did not 'already know' unless you work for the NSA.
-
I think that the "I do nothing wrong, so I have nothing to hide" and "This is old news, have you been hiding under a rock?" phrases are the most dangerous. Yes, we all knew that spying was happening. I don't think anyone didn't at least somewhat suspect it, but my thoughts are that this sheer and utter PROOF of spying should not alert people, but JUSTIFY protests or rebellion.
-
If my writing style confused you, which it clearly has, i am in no way saying that i didn't know about these things... in fact i clearly stated that this is old news to me but not necessarily others. I have a degree in computing so these things i read about all day... but others don't. THAT'S what i am saying!
I was talking those who live under rocks! Don't take this too seriously!
Cheers.
-
i really dont understand why people are surprised w/ the level of surveillance- the USA and UK have been eavesdropping on all communication for decades-FOR DECADES- its called project echelon- and sorry to have awoken you from your slumber, but its hardly news-
This. Dude is just a pasty white nerd who wanted to become famous by reminding us what we all already knew, or should have known.
I don't agree with that. He risked his life, which he will lose when the US finally captures him, to tell the people about what was really going on with the government. Of course we should have known all along because the US government is getting worst and worst and it's obvious they will not stop until they have taken all of our freedoms as well as the rest of the world, but we did not know the full extent as a guaranteed fact. Until Edward Snowden broke the news of what was going on, all it was was a conspiracy theory that couldn't be proved. But now it is concrete evidence, we know that they are literally just gathering everything, to do what with , we don't know yet. But one thing is for certain, they will find Edward Snowden and he will die just for being honest, which is something the government can't do. He left his family and sacrificed himself for the greater good of the nation, and should be remembered as a hero, but somehow this dictatorship has convinced the blind sheep that he is the bad guy for telling on "mommy and daddy" government. With all the new technology and infringement of our rights going on, it will not be long before everyone who objects to the government is locked in concentration camps. This man is a true martyr for the cause, and I can't say I would've had the courage to do what he did.
-
+1 to this conversation... I want to know why we as the people of america are not protecting these hero's .. They give us lots of info of how our government is fucking us up the ass with a Verizon cell phone and we just ignore it. Then we lock these people up for Life under BS charges like Aiding the enemy ( Are we the people the enemy now?). The same thing goes for Bradley Manning
-
Snowden is on his way (maybe already there) to Russia, then to Venezuela. No, maybe to Iceland. No, maybe to Ecuador. Maybe he stays in Russia.
At ANY RATE, I love that this is another slap in the face to Obama, and he's showing signs of incredible weakness and incompetence ==> that can only be good for all us freedom-loving people.
Yes, a wounded animal is more dangerous, but if you are following the news closely, you will see that the US is slowly being made irrelevant. They can't do a thing about Syria, they really can't do a thing about Iran, they know China and the rest of its debtors have it by the balls when it comes to the dollar and its reserve currency status and the bond market, etc.
They will lash out more and more, but I believe in less and less of an effective way, until the US gov and military slowly sink into oblivion. I live for that day!
goblin
-
I think people in here are getting butt hurt over whether or not we "already knew this was going on..." Who the FUCK cares?
The fact is that he exposed the NSA with PROOF that this was going on and awakened a much larger American public that didn't already know, or chose to ignore it.
The thing that upsets me the most (besides the illegal spying) is my friends who seemingly have "nothing to hide" and could not care less. This is a damning attitude - one that could cripple our freedom.
-
The thing that upsets me the most (besides the illegal spying) is my friends who seemingly have "nothing to hide" and could not care less. This is a damning attitude - one that could cripple our freedom.
Everybody has something to hide (also because if there really isn't it can be easily created if you have enough info on the person, and guess what? you have all the info you want in this case). Your friends say so just because they really think it will never matter to them (maybe because they think they will never become targets) so until it's a thing that matters somebody else, why caring? It's the typical egoistical view of certain branches of our society: "oh, unlucky him, lucky me".
The problem is that in reality everybody can become a target given the right circumstance, and so caring only about your little garden thinking you are safe it's the fastest route to trouble sooner or later. If people would start thinking about the larger picture (i.e. that what happens to others concerns also yourself) then maybe these things would really have the impact they should have.
Information is power, and the most dangerous one. A person that can really harm you is one that knows you perfectly because he knows your habits, your weak spots, your necessities. All these things can be easily used against you in case it will be needed, and there could be a lot of circumstances in which this could happen if it is the government the one that knows you perfectly. People should really start to care about the fact that a group of people have their life in their hands because, frankly speaking, it is seriously fucking dramatic just the thought of it.
-
Basically: probable cause is now a thing of the past.
Problem is: the public has already bought into a guilty-until-proven-innocent mindset, so what the fuck do they care about "probable cause"?
So long as they belong to a seldom-targeted demographic, they can rest at night secure in the knowledge that LE *probably* isn't going to be kicking down their door or the door of anyone they care about. Until it's far, far too late for everyone.
q.v. "First they came for..."