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Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 07:53 am

Title: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 07:53 am
I just wanted to let you all know what i found out from my trip to the post office the other day, and my talk with the postal inspector.

Express mail, and Priority Mail, are not protected, because you are allowed to send parcels and not just correspondences. Any mail in which you are allowed to ship items other then personal letters is not protected, and can be ripped open to be inspected WITHOUT A WARRENT.


4. Can Postal Inspectors open mail if they feel it may contain something illegal?
First-Class letters and parcels are protected against search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, and, as such, cannot be opened without a search warrant. If there is probable cause to believe the contents of a First-Class letter or parcel violate federal law, Postal Inspectors can obtain a search warrant to open the mailpiece. Other classes of mail do not contain private correspondence, and therefore may be opened without a warrant.

SOURCE (https://postalinspectors.uspis.gov/contactUs/faq.aspx)
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: metaphoe on August 31, 2012, 08:09 am
good to know.. i always get first class
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: dexamyl on August 31, 2012, 10:49 am
Express mail and priority mail are also first-class mailings, and are protected the same. First-Class Mail (tm) is simply the cheapest first-class category, intended for items 13 ounces or less.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 01:50 pm
Express mail and priority mail are also first-class mailings, and are protected the same. First-Class Mail (tm) is simply the cheapest first-class category, intended for items 13 ounces or less.
Can you show us a source that says they are first class mailings because im going by what a 20 year veteran postal inspector told me.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 02:43 pm
Just to inform you prior to 2007 according to cache the website used to read.

First-Class® letters and parcels and Express Mail® are protected against search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, and, as such, cannot be opened without a search warrant. If there is probable cause to believe the contents of a First-Class Mail letter or parcel or an Express Mail pieceviolate federal law, Postal Inspectors can obtain a search warrant to open the mailpiece. Other classes of mail do not contain private correspondence, and therefore may be opened without a warrant.


Under the Trade Act 107 H.R. 3009, all international mail including those going to or coming from Puerto Rico are subject to random search and no warrant required.... That's known.


Oh according to governor jeb bush in 2007 when the usps began to privatize sections he tried to pass an unsuccessful law to make express mail protected.
http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/story?id=2770381&page=1#.UEDMBEKXPi4
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: wizdom on August 31, 2012, 02:57 pm
The original post is correct. Only First Class is protected and requiring a warrant. Al others ay be opened at will by postal inspectors. I believe parcel post is not protected either.

I usually offer First class free to try and encourage it, but every one wants Priority or Express...

Modzi
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on August 31, 2012, 03:09 pm
No, Im sorry to say that this topic is un-true.

Here is a quote which says EXPRESS is covered.
Quote
Can Postal Inspectors open mail?First-Class Mail letters and parcels and Express Mail items are protected against search and seizure under the Fourth Amendment to the Constitution, and, as such, cannot be opened without a search warrant.If there is probable cause to believe the contents of a First-Class Mail letter, parcel or an Express Mail piece violate federal law, Postal Inspectors can obtain a search warrant to open the mailpiece. Other classes of do not contain private correspondence, and therefore may be opened without a warrant.

http://faq.usps.com/eCustomer/iq/usps/request.do?session={3b7149c0-f37c-11e1-c051-000000000000}&event=1&view()=c%7B4779e600-a3b6-11de-f432-000000000000%7D&objectId=&eksObjectId=&objectType=Case&isJumpEnabled=false&isContentJumpEnabled=false&vendorKey=&objTitle=&versionId=9323&searchProperties=undefined&naturalAdvance=false&allStr=&phraseStr=&anyStr=&noneStr=&keywordStr=&tTitle=&topicFromSub=&topicsORSubUrl=&report(0000)=p{fd8043a0-6973-11dd-e6c4-000000000000}&bcobjectId={e4ae5a10-6973-11dd-e6c4-000000000000}&search=warrant&topicAndSubtopic=Sending%20Mail$ALL

....terrible link I know. Sorry I was digging around USPS for it.

First Class letters - Are the letters you write to your friends and family
First Class Parcels - Are both Priority and Express

What is NOT First Class ? - Any bulk mailing. Junk mail. Magazines Etc.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 03:23 pm
Good info shroommeister.

I don't see any info in there about priority in the article, but i do see Express Mail. Which I've seen a couple times including the uspis website prior to 2007, ive also seen where they say its not protected and where people have tried to have it protected.

I'm going to make some calls today to a couple different postal inspector offices and see what they say.... Whether its protected or not Id like to know whether they know if it is. Even if its protected and they open it, that sucks for us...
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on August 31, 2012, 03:28 pm
 Priority is considered a First Class Parcel
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: ihaveaquestion on August 31, 2012, 04:01 pm
How much longer does First Class Mail take vs Priority Mail?
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on August 31, 2012, 04:05 pm
How much longer does First Class Mail take vs Priority Mail?
Typically 1 day, but the guide says Express is 1-2 days, Priority 2-3, First-Class 2-5
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: TheGoldenEel on September 01, 2012, 08:12 am


I'm going to make some calls today to a couple different postal inspector offices and see what they say.... Whether its protected or not Id like to know whether they know if it is. Even if its protected and they open it, that sucks for us...

Any luck contacting postal guys? I have no doubt that unwarranted searches occur but I'd would be nice to know if there are "inside" policies in some places.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on September 01, 2012, 08:59 am
I only managed to contact one more, I was going to follow up after I collected some more information. I may need to remove some of these details as it may compromise my own security.

I went to the Orlando International USPS main branch and dispatch facility (10401 Post Office Boulevard, Orlando, FL). I spoke with USPS Postal Inspector Mike (REMOVED LAST NAME AND BADGE NUMBER). I told him I knew someone that was receiving drugs via the mail and I was curious about how the whole process works, and why they are so successful at receiving these drugs, even in bulk quantities. He explained to me that with the work load they are under, and the unavailability of dogs there is just no way to stop drugs in the mail. The drug shippers have learned to disguise there packages so well there is almost no way to tell if they have drugs in them and they don't have time to figure out whether they have drugs in them. He said at there facility there are 2 full time dogs, which walk the mail sorters over 100+ times a day, and when they go off they pull the packages. I asked if they were allowed to open them or if they had to wait for a warrant. He told me they do not need a warrant for anything that the dog alerts to. They take it to an xray machine, scan the package to verify its not a bomb, then take it to the recorded inspection counter, and open it. If there is guns, poison, or a large amount of drugs, they burn the dvd recording and place the package in a box and send it off for further inspection. small packages of minor drugs are recorded into there system corresponding with the address and name for future reference, and are set to be incinerated with the dead mail. He said they had an incident were a postal worker was been caught trying to steal these drugs before incineration...

I asked him whether express mail was protected, but his answer was a little more vague then i expected. He stated that only letter mail was protected. (not the answer i wanted)

That's about all the useful information I got from him. but basically he said explained that as long as the dogs don't find your package you should be good. if the dogs find it, that its probable cause and they will just rip it open. I guess a warrant really isnt needed, because if they have "probable cause" they can just open it.

I will try another post office where i can find a postal inspector next week, they mostly took off for the long weekend from what i understand.

EDITED to remove USPS inspectors information.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: TheGoldenEel on September 01, 2012, 10:18 am
Personally I'd feel like you're still leaving way too much info (address + witness + camera...) but then again maybe your forum account is not compromising. I'm overly cautious either way. Thanks for making the effort. Glad to hear hear his wisdom lines up with my USPS motto - if the dogs can't smell it, it won't be opened! I have always had my concerns about Express, can't say anything for sure, but I'm more comfortable with Priority packages.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: wizdom on September 01, 2012, 03:45 pm
e stated that only letter mail was protected.

Like I said, First Class Mail is the only one the need a warrant to open, which does not include ANY packaged over 1/4 inch thick, or non-flexible or not rectangular or too large in height or width. It has to go through the automated letter machine. Then you have a case to throw out evidence if they didn't get a warrant prior to opening it.

But that eliminates a lot of shit you might want to ship...

Modzi
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: peels4u on September 01, 2012, 06:38 pm
With the amount of mail USPS processes per day, I think the chance of any package getting inspected, 1st class or priority are very small.  Just package carefully and buyers must be cautious about shipping addresses.  Even if USPS doesn't inspect based on US law, it is still better to be safe in shipping, as any inspector or employee can break rules.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: wizdom on September 02, 2012, 03:23 am
With the amount of mail USPS processes per day, I think the chance of any package getting inspected, 1st class or priority are very small.  Just package carefully and buyers must be cautious about shipping addresses.  Even if USPS doesn't inspect based on US law, it is still better to be safe in shipping, as any inspector or employee can break rules.

I agree with every word.

Modzi
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: LDopa on September 02, 2012, 11:25 pm
guthrienewspage.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/police-take-12k-of-drugs-off-the-streets/

This article is two days old and the explicitly mention LEO not being able to open a package flagged by K9 because it was First-Class.

The inspector clearly stated a Federal Warrant would be needed.  Seems like there's a lot of confusion on this.  Parcels are covered by the 4th. 
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on September 03, 2012, 12:02 am
guthrienewspage.wordpress.com/2012/08/31/police-take-12k-of-drugs-off-the-streets/

This article is two days old and the explicitly mention LEO not being able to open a package flagged by K9 because it was First-Class.

The inspector clearly stated a Federal Warrant would be needed.  Seems like there's a lot of confusion on this.  Parcels are covered by the 4th.

I agree with you 100%. If you look at my link up-thread you will see the same info right off of the USPS website. Current website. Not something from 2007.

Unfortunately I think the OP trusted a high ranking USPS employee and I can't say that I blame him.

However I learned early on (vending) that USPS workers either blatantly lie to you to accommodate their own agenda ...or they are just brain washed corp robots who do not know WTF they are talking about.

E.G. - When I was gathering info on vending I went to a PO and told them that I needed PRE-PAID Priority Supplies. Postage and boxes, so that I could give them to an elderly relative so that she could ship with out leaving the house.

The PO worker told that there was no such thing and that ALL priority packages had to "come in to the PO and be handed over the counter". We can leave up for debate as to if he was "gaming" me or just a moron. I asked about the flat rate priority. "Why would I have to bring a flat rate box into a PO if its FLAT RATE!!!...IF it fits it ships?!?!? ...right?"

He told me I needed to order flat rate supplies from USPS.com and have them shipped (for free) to my door.

.....goes with out saying 3/4ths of that is not true and we all know that. I know that now anyway. Point is whatever the reasoning is PO workers are often the LEAST informed as to what is really going on.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on September 03, 2012, 12:09 am
Quote from the above mentioned new article website


Quote
Police take $12k of drugs off the streets August 31, 2012

Quote
However, according to detectives, a Norman Postal Inspector from the United States Postal Inspection Service (USPIS) demanded the package returned to the post office and explained to the police department they did not have authorization to the privileged mail due to federal law to deliver the package.
The Postal Inspector later traveled to Guthrie and delivered the suspicious package to the front porch of the address that it was destined for


I stand by my belief that:

First Class Letter = Envelope with a stamp
First Class Parcel = Priority/Express (box)

Not Protected = Bulk Mailing. (junk mail)
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: metaphoe on September 03, 2012, 12:17 am
u done broke it all down Shroomeister...

i think Tizzat was just some LEO tryna spook people
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on September 03, 2012, 12:35 am
u done broke it all down Shroomeister...

i think Tizzat was just some LEO tryna spook people

Yep I'm a LEO, Hear me roar..... =] I was just doing research for the good of the community.

I came to my conclusion that USPS First Class is the safest method, but if you want tracking use USPS priority or Express but its more likely to be confiscated.... In the end that risk is up to both the seller and the buyer. I think the Seized rates might be like 1% for Priority or Express, and like .01% for Firstclass.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on September 03, 2012, 01:14 am
I dont think that is true at all. @LEO comment. but I also do not partake in the uber-paranoia that is most of the ST collective.

I honestly believe that the OP had no intention other then HELP the community, and that is just awesome.

I do not even want to go back and forth arguing the points of this topic, its not worth a fight, but it is important to me that if a newbie stumbles upon this thread 6 months from now that there is some "clear" information for them to base their own decision on!
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: metaphoe on September 03, 2012, 02:33 am
I know , i know, im just being hard on Taz ova there..

Tazzit, i apologize for tryna assume out the blue, especially with asking usps inspectors questions, lol

that whole bit with asking what if someone decided to send drugs through the mail, that shit takes balls, don't be doing shit like dat bro.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: exploding_penguin on September 03, 2012, 06:04 pm
Lots of good discussion here.  I just set up a vendor account to sell a small amount, and I was wondering this exact thing about shipping methods.

Oh, and Shroomeister, what's the best way to ship/pay USPS and remain anonymous?  Haven't seen that posted anywhere yet.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on September 03, 2012, 06:16 pm
Just buy postage stamps, and thick envelopes, you can use your credit card, the stamps are untraceable. walk into the facility and use there scale if you'd like to verify the correct postage.

then drop them in the letter or small package drop...

this is best with first class, and safest, but tracking is not available.

you can grab delivery confirmation stickers, and place 75cents of postage next to the delivery confirmation sticker, and lay them on the counter and walk out, if you want tracking. they scan them in when they get to them.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: exploding_penguin on September 03, 2012, 06:37 pm
So you just get stamps and use the calculate a price service on usps.com to figure out poastage?  And you could also pay for priority flat rate boxes with stamps?  I guess I figured stamps on a small parcel would seem out of place also.  And a small parcel it would need to be (1-8 ounces of vacuum packed shrooms).  Anyhoot, I'll stop hijacking now :)


So back on topic: from what I'm reading here, a First Class parcel should be protected but whether that includes Priority is debatable?
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: Shroomeister on September 03, 2012, 08:06 pm
Lots of good discussion here.  I just set up a vendor account to sell a small amount, and I was wondering this exact thing about shipping methods.

Oh, and Shroomeister, what's the best way to ship/pay USPS and remain anonymous?  Haven't seen that posted anywhere yet.

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=39346.0;topicseen


Start here man. There are a lot of people that would be willing to help you with some level of details, but probably not here on an open forum.
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: tizzat on September 15, 2012, 01:15 am
So who here would be curious about photos of how the USPS does its package searches?!?

I've got photos but i need an expert to double check them to make sure its not risking my identity (PM me).  I was getting ready to make a shipment at the main post office for the state of florida at like 8:15pm, trying to meet my 8:30 drop off for next day service. When all the sudden a white van pulls of up with a 25 foot long trailer, with 30+ dogs loaded in individual cages. The dogs were going crazy as soon as rolled down my window. I sat there and watched as they were leashing them up to walk them through the facility, the dogs were barking and one of them almost plowed down the handler to run to my car parked like 20 feet away. The handler was just some standard guy, but he immediately came over to claim the dog, and began to flirt with me. I asked him what the dogs were doing and he explained they are called for special facility checks across the nation. (i guess 2 pharmacies in sanford were handing out opioids in large quantities that were being shipped via the usps.) well long story short, i didnt make my shipment last night and but i got a tour. I got to see the whole inside of what i believe is the largest post office in florida, and see a couple package seizures/tagging. I have approximately 15 photos. 2 of the dogs outside, being unloaded. 6 inside the facility,  4 of the handlers and the dogs in action, and 3 of packages being tagged for inspection. I was not allowed to witness the package openings. but if you guys are interested in this process these third party dogs that were trained to detect specific controlled substances, and apparently money dogs... the license plates of the van and the other cars were from Tennessee...
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: metaphoe on September 15, 2012, 01:23 am
Oh ShiT... TiZZAT !

i can give u the link to the program to scrub METADATA off your picutres..
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: fredflintstone on September 15, 2012, 01:26 am
VERY interested
Title: Re: USPS Priority + Express (ARE NOT PROTECTED)
Post by: wizdom on September 15, 2012, 02:09 am
Sooooo interested! Tizzat is the Shizzat.

MW