Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: etsubucs31 on May 13, 2012, 08:28 pm
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I am waiting on a package from SKYY and hoping it arrives to try some of his pink stars next weekend. I've heard taking 5-HTP can enhance the experience as well as help preventing a hangover. So my questions are: 1) How much to take, and how long before rolling should you stop taking it. 2) Do you take it immediately after rolling (before bed) or wait till you wake up the next morning. And once again how much to take.
Thanks for any advice!
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Don't take any 5htp before rolling. Take the 5htp as soon as you are done rolling / I keep it in my car to take once I get out of the venue. I'd take 200mg if they are XR, or 100mg if they are IR. And take more once you wake up...
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Yeah, take it after rolling and after waking up.
Drink lots of water also.
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I never felt any effect from 5htp
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I'm glad you're interested in pre-loading and post-loading studies have shown that this can completely reverse neurtoxicity in mice and there is alot of reason to believe the same will happen with humans when you understand the mechanism of mdma.
Not only will this reduce nuerotoxicity but it will also reduce you're tolerance which is something all mdma users should want to do. Take this shit pre roll (drop it close to when you drop mdma):
1500 mg of Vitamin C
50 mg 5-htp (don't take too much pre roll but taking a little is a good thing in my opinion)
magnesium (this is for jaw clenching)
B6
Post roll:
1000 mg Vitamin C (this is water soluble so taking too much is not really a bad thing and this will reduce neurtoxic affects)
100-200 5-htp
studies have also shown that smoking weed when you're coming down is actually good for you (I could link if you'd like)
B6
You may need to take more 5-htp if you are feeling that you are having post mdma depression or trouble sleeping the next few days but do not over do it. The most imporatnt supplements are 5-htp and Vitamin C so you don't have to take everything if you don't feel like it.
Happy rolling!
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I've never experienced anything from 5-HTP, either. I always take it after a roll though (day after) because I know it probably helps rebuild some of that serotonin your brain is so lacking after a good night of rolling. I just take it for good measure, never felt anything notable.
However, Vitamin C and Magnesium definately helps to put you back at baseline after a heavy night of rolling. I find that both of these, when taken together, can help you get out of that depression you sometimes get into after rolling.
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You need to preload with it for weeks in order for it to work well and never, NEVER, take it the same day/ same time you are rolling. Could cause severe seratonin syndrome. Be safe and PLURR :)
Best Rergards,
Stormtrooper
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I feel the effects of 5-HTP more when I smoke Cannabis, maybe it's just a placebo effect, but I see colors brighter, and feel happier, other than just the stoned feeling of weed.
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5-HTP is a potentially harmful substance, the most toxic of the amino acids and potentially neurotoxic when converted to serotonin. However, since MDMA displaces serotonin by binding to the same sites on proteins (and the displaced serotonin is prone to degradation) taking a small amount (<<100mg) during the comedown may alleviate some of the residual adverse effects, although taking it beforehand may attenuate the desirable effects as well.
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5-HTP is a potentially harmful substance, the most toxic of the amino acids and potentially neurotoxic when converted to serotonin. However, since MDMA displaces serotonin by binding to the same sites on proteins (and the displaced serotonin is prone to degradation) taking a small amount (<<100mg) during the comedown may alleviate some of the residual adverse effects, although taking it beforehand may attenuate the desirable effects as well.
Please site your source.
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5-HTP is a potentially harmful substance, the most toxic of the amino acids and potentially neurotoxic when converted to serotonin. However, since MDMA displaces serotonin by binding to the same sites on proteins (and the displaced serotonin is prone to degradation) taking a small amount (<<100mg) during the comedown may alleviate some of the residual adverse effects, although taking it beforehand may attenuate the desirable effects as well.
Please site your source.
Source for what? Serotonin is the prototypical endogenous sensitizing agent, and its presence generally increases excitability of neurons, which is the prerequisite for excitotoxicity. MDMA manifestly binds to the same sites on certain proteins as does serotonin (and other molecules), leading some (mechanistic-minded) researchers to call it a 'serotonin releasing agent' since serotonin is displaced where MDMA binds. I could find sources for these but they are trivial, uncontroversial statements.
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
is a good article on the effects of serotonin and tryptophan.
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5-HTP is a potentially harmful substance, the most toxic of the amino acids and potentially neurotoxic when converted to serotonin. However, since MDMA displaces serotonin by binding to the same sites on proteins (and the displaced serotonin is prone to degradation) taking a small amount (<<100mg) during the comedown may alleviate some of the residual adverse effects, although taking it beforehand may attenuate the desirable effects as well.
Please site your source.
Source for what? Serotonin is the prototypical endogenous sensitizing agent, and its presence generally increases excitability of neurons, which is the prerequisite for excitotoxicity. MDMA manifestly binds to the same sites on certain proteins as does serotonin (and other molecules), leading some (mechanistic-minded) researchers to call it a 'serotonin releasing agent' since serotonin is displaced where MDMA binds. I could find sources for these but they are trivial, uncontroversial statements.
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
is a good article on the effects of serotonin and tryptophan.
I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. MDMA is not structurally similar to serotonin and does not replace serotonin when our bodies process it. Instead MDMA is an antagonist on the re-uptake proteins that transport serotonin back into the neuron for recycling. The toxicity comes into play when serotonin has been used in a very high concentration and then dopamine is inappropriately transported back into the neuron. MAO enzymes then catalyze the breakdown of dopamine instead of serotonin leading to a higher concentration of hydrogen peroxide. Antioxidants neutralize hydrogen peroxide and taking 5-htp replenishes the serotonin that was used up to avoid dopamine transport into the neuron.
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5-HTP is a potentially harmful substance, the most toxic of the amino acids and potentially neurotoxic when converted to serotonin. However, since MDMA displaces serotonin by binding to the same sites on proteins (and the displaced serotonin is prone to degradation) taking a small amount (<<100mg) during the comedown may alleviate some of the residual adverse effects, although taking it beforehand may attenuate the desirable effects as well.
Please site your source.
Source for what? Serotonin is the prototypical endogenous sensitizing agent, and its presence generally increases excitability of neurons, which is the prerequisite for excitotoxicity. MDMA manifestly binds to the same sites on certain proteins as does serotonin (and other molecules), leading some (mechanistic-minded) researchers to call it a 'serotonin releasing agent' since serotonin is displaced where MDMA binds. I could find sources for these but they are trivial, uncontroversial statements.
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
is a good article on the effects of serotonin and tryptophan.
I'm pretty sure this isn't correct. MDMA is not structurally similar to serotonin and does not replace serotonin when our bodies process it. Instead MDMA is an antagonist on the re-uptake proteins that transport serotonin back into the neuron for recycling. The toxicity comes into play when serotonin has been used in a very high concentration and then dopamine is inappropriately transported back into the neuron. MAO enzymes then catalyze the breakdown of dopamine instead of serotonin leading to a higher concentration of hydrogen peroxide. Antioxidants neutralize hydrogen peroxide and taking 5-htp replenishes the serotonin that was used up to avoid dopamine transport into the neuron.
MDMA is in fact structurally similar to serotonin; both contain planar aromatic rings of similar size, with a nitrogen 2 carbons away. The correspondence is not perfect but allows it to bind to some of the same regions on certain proteins (same with DA, NE, analogues). Those include proteins near the cell surface that facilitate the entry of serotonin and its analogues by adsorbing and then de-sorbing them, which you call 'reuptake proteins'. The binding of MDMA displaces 5-HT ('calcium independent' release, as opposed to depolarization-induced release of synaptic vesicles) and prevents its uptake. The neurological changes are caused by the induction of feedback processes by the transiently altered serotonin metabolism, such as habituation of endocrine responses to serotonin.
Neurotoxicity results when a neuron is depolarized and cannot restore its resting state. MDMA (and serotonin) sensitize neurons to be depolarized, and if energy is insufficient to restore the resting state (repolarize) the neuron will die. There may be other factors involved, such as induction of oxidative stress by pro-oxidant metabolites of MDMA, but sensitization/lack of energy is the prerequisite for excitotoxicity. Your explanation of neurotoxicity seems untenable, or maybe I'm not understanding what you were trying to say.
That said, I don't believe that MDMA is necessarily acutely neurotoxic to humans in recreational doses. It depends on the person and the dose used, but ultimately it comes down to the brain's energy supply and resistance to oxidants (which is the premise of my MindFood capsules).
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You seem to have a better understanding of this than me, but every journal I have ever read cites oxidative stress as a result of neurotoxcity in regards to mdma. Mice have shown to have normal levels of serotonin the day after mdma use and decreased tolerance build up after taking antioxidants. I'm hoping to learn more about this in the future though since this is my area of studies (I'm a noob in it though).
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You seem to have a better understanding of this than me, but every journal I have ever read cites oxidative stress as a result of neurotoxcity in regards to mdma. Mice have shown to have normal levels of serotonin the day after mdma use and decreased tolerance build up after taking antioxidants. I'm hoping to learn more about this in the future though since this is my area of studies (I'm a noob in it though).
Oxidative stress is both a cause and an effect of neurotoxicity; inappropriate oxidation (eg lipid peroxidation) reduces energy supply both by damaging molecules involved in metabolism and by consuming O2 (which is typically doing the oxidation) from oxidative respiration. Cell death by necrosis, in turn, results in the breakdown of subcellular structure and the release of oxidating factors, such as mitochondrial cytochrome C, which can then inappropriately oxidize other molecules. If sufficient antioxidants are present this can be avoided.
I never said oxidative stress does not contribute to neurotoxicity, but rather that the process can be understood in a more general sense.
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I have followed this guide roughly to great success. http://www.rollinballzcrew.com/preload.shtml
I would suggest being conservative on 5-HTP use while preloading, however. I think 100-200mg is too high. I take 100mg daily as a mood booster, personally, but even that seems high. 50mg would be more reasonable.
Tryptamine, don't you put about 30mg of 5-HTP into one of your supplements? (I forget which.)
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I love threads like these, I always learn so much in them! Positive Karma to those with knowledge! ;)
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I have followed this guide roughly to great success. http://www.rollinballzcrew.com/preload.shtml
I would suggest being conservative on 5-HTP use while preloading, however. I think 100-200mg is too high. I take 100mg daily as a mood booster, personally, but even that seems high. 50mg would be more reasonable.
Tryptamine, don't you put about 30mg of 5-HTP into one of your supplements? (I forget which.)
15mg in the MindFood, 50mg in the ChillPill. Going to lower the latter in the next batch, and add glycine.
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In my experience, taking 5-htp before rolling has a NEGATIVE effect on my roll. I'm very experienced w/ MDMA and only ever take 5-htp AFTER rolling. When I took it for a few weeks before a Saturday night session in hopes that it would increase my serotonin levels and make for a wonderful roll, I hardly felt the MDMA at all (and I know it was good stuff because I got it from SR and my friends who did not pre-load w/ 5-htp rolled FACE).
If you must take 5-htp, I recommend only doing immediately after your roll is COMPLETELY over and then for a few days after.
However, mostly, I would recommend PIRACETAM for preloading and postloading w/ MDMA. Many people believe it increases the intensity of the drug and "brings back the magic" (some say it does nothing), but almost everyone agrees that Piracetam helps w/ neurotoxicity.
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I have followed this guide roughly to great success. http://www.rollinballzcrew.com/preload.shtml
I would suggest being conservative on 5-HTP use while preloading, however. I think 100-200mg is too high. I take 100mg daily as a mood booster, personally, but even that seems high. 50mg would be more reasonable.
Tryptamine, don't you put about 30mg of 5-HTP into one of your supplements? (I forget which.)
15mg in the MindFood, 50mg in the ChillPill. Going to lower the latter in the next batch, and add glycine.
Honestly, I've been using MindFood to reboot my Acid tolerance :) Works wonders!
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In my experience, taking 5-htp before rolling has a NEGATIVE effect on my roll. I'm very experienced w/ MDMA and only ever take 5-htp AFTER rolling. When I took it for a few weeks before a Saturday night session in hopes that it would increase my serotonin levels and make for a wonderful roll, I hardly felt the MDMA at all (and I know it was good stuff because I got it from SR and my friends who did not pre-load w/ 5-htp rolled FACE).
I can confirm this. Also, methylone won't do anything combined with 5-htp either.
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As someone who takes 5-htp regularly, let me speak about preloading with 5-htp and the "dulling" effect...
I have not found 5-htp to dull my rolls at all. However I find that taking 5-htp regularly not only puts me at risk for serotonin syndrome (which I manage really well), but it puts me at increased risk when taking MDMA. I only take low doses now, and with the great MDMA here I can't really complain...
So I personally suggest not preloading with 5-htp, or if you must, preload with low amounts... 50mg or less. This is to avoid serotonin syndrome.
But I think that the "taking 5-htp beforehand dulls the roll" myth is bunk. Increasing your natural supply of 5-htp doesn't dull anything about the roll at all. Taking 200mg+ of 5-htp might make your body a little tired from all the extra serotonin, though, so I think the confusion comes from taking too much 5-htp rather than the proper amount. There may be no benefit to it, but there is no inherent detriment if you take a REASONABLE amount of 5-htp.
Although, do take what I say with a grain of salt, since I only speak from my experience and not from accredited expertise.
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Taking 5htp by itself doesn't put you at risk of serotonin syndrome. Taking large amounts of 5htp will only cause you to throw up.
Additionally, taking 5htp for long periods of time will DEFINITELY dull the roll - there is no question about this. It is arguable if taking it 1 or 2 days in advance will dull the roll, but if you take it for any amount of time there is no doubt. 5htp also leads to the stiffening of the heart and you can run into heart problems later in life. For this reason, it is not suggested that one supplements with 5htp for long periods of time.
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Taking 5htp by itself doesn't put you at risk of serotonin syndrome. Taking large amounts of 5htp will only cause you to throw up.
False. I developed serotonin syndrome while taking 5-htp (and I was not taking any recreational drugs). I think you're thinking tryptophan or something.
Additionally, taking 5htp for long periods of time will DEFINITELY dull the roll - there is no question about this. It is arguable if taking it 1 or 2 days in advance will dull the roll, but if you take it for any amount of time there is no doubt. 5htp also leads to the stiffening of the heart and you can run into heart problems later in life. For this reason, it is not suggested that one supplements with 5htp for long periods of time.
I've been looking into this fact. The extra serotonin is absolutely vital to me now, but the side effects of 5-htp can be hard too. So while I think I'll disagree about it DEFINITELY dulling the roll (again, I live the life to contradict that claim), you have a good point about the heart problems that I'm glad you brought up for everyone's edification. :)
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Taking 5htp by itself doesn't put you at risk of serotonin syndrome. Taking large amounts of 5htp will only cause you to throw up.
False. I developed serotonin syndrome while taking 5-htp (and I was not taking any recreational drugs). I think you're thinking tryptophan or something.
Additionally, taking 5htp for long periods of time will DEFINITELY dull the roll - there is no question about this. It is arguable if taking it 1 or 2 days in advance will dull the roll, but if you take it for any amount of time there is no doubt. 5htp also leads to the stiffening of the heart and you can run into heart problems later in life. For this reason, it is not suggested that one supplements with 5htp for long periods of time.
I've been looking into this fact. The extra serotonin is absolutely vital to me now, but the side effects of 5-htp can be hard too. So while I think I'll disagree about it DEFINITELY dulling the roll (again, I live the life to contradict that claim), you have a good point about the heart problems that I'm glad you brought up for everyone's edification. :)
You developed serotonin syndrome while taking 5htp? And you weren't on an MAOI? Then your brain chemistry is radically different from most people's, and not really applicable.
Assuming you could take an infinite amount of 5htp (which you can't, because you'd start throwing up pretty quickly) your body can only turn 5htp into 5ht so fast. And this is most assuredly slower than the body breaks it down.
Supplementing 5htp definitely dulls the roll. This isn't a question of what you feel like or what your experience is - this is some pretty well accepted science. While I realize you are trying to be helpful with this info, some of what you are saying is past the point of speculation and into the realm of "we know what is happening, and this is what causes it". Basically, the receptors in your brain are sensitized or desensitized based on how much average stimulation they receive. If you increase stimulation (by supplementing 5htp), the receptors are going to downreguation. Then, when you take MDMA, you can't stimulate the neurons as much and the roll is dulled. It's the same effect that causes tolerance to MDMA - roll too often, and your body is used to the stimulation.
With that in mind, what makes you believe you developed serotonin syndrome by supplementing 5htp? Perhaps I can shed some light on what actually happened.
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All right, starting with 5-HTP and serotonin syndrome. I took 200mg a day for about 2 weeks and I began to develop the syndromes of mild serotonin syndrome: chronic sweating (and resulting dehydration), diarrhea, increased resting heart rate (from 65 to 85-90), vasoconstriction, higher body temperature, and hypomania. During that time I was only taking multivitamins and a Lamotrigine, 150mg. When I realized my symptoms, I tapered down to 100mg, then to 50mg, and my symptoms subsided within 2 days of the second tapering. I rose back to 100mg and was fine for several weeks, but when the symptoms recurred I dropped to 50mg again for several days. I'm back to 100mg now but I'm considering tapering back down to 50mg because of the downregulation you mention.
If you think my brain chemistry is radically different, then it might explain why I don't experience a dulling effect. Downregulation would of course be a cause of dulling, so I understand why that seems to make sense... but you're going to have to explain to me how if your brain can only convert 5-htp into 5-ht so fast, how downregulation would occur when the body is capable of regulating this action. Or perhaps I misunderstand? I take 5-htp to increase my apparently naturally low serotonin supply and it works. It hasn't stopped working. If there was downregulation happening, wouldn't the 5-htp stop working as well?
You'll probably chalk what I'm saying up to placebo, though. I could assure you I'm very in tune with my moods and my psychology as much as I want, but you'd probably think I was a dolt.
Anyway, although I'm probably saying something you already know, the tolerance to MDMA isn't simply downregulation. There's also the neurotoxicity of oxidized dopamine hurting serotonin receptors, correct?
Again, although I think preloading with large amounts of 5-htp will lead you into serotonin syndrome, my experience shows that low amounts of 5-htp don't dull rolls... so maybe I've something terribly wrong with me, but from what I can tell the claim that it dulls rolls is a myth. Well, at least I've the right mind to say this is coming from my own understanding of the chemistry and from my own experience, and not from a professional degree or whatever.
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If you think my brain chemistry is radically different, then it might explain why I don't experience a dulling effect. Downregulation would of course be a cause of dulling, so I understand why that seems to make sense... but you're going to have to explain to me how if your brain can only convert 5-htp into 5-ht so fast, how downregulation would occur when the body is capable of regulating this action. Or perhaps I misunderstand? I take 5-htp to increase my apparently naturally low serotonin supply and it works. It hasn't stopped working. If there was downregulation happening, wouldn't the 5-htp stop working as well?
I'm not saying your body is regulating the conversion of 5htp to 5ht - it's pretty much a fixed rate. But what this means is that you can only produce so much serotonin per unit time. This will still increase the overall levels of serotonin in the body, and because there is more it will also be broken down faster. At some point it will reach an equilibrium. At this heightened level, it will be enough to cause downregulation but not enough to cause serotonin syndrome.
It is possible that your body wasn't able to produce enough serotonin on it's own, and so supplementation of 5htp will currently and always will fix this problem. However, you are likely to experience heightened mood and euphoria until you return to baseline. Once this reaches equilibrium, stopping the supplementation of 5htp will likely cause you to return to and exceed your previously low levels. All of this is dose dependent though.
Anyway, although I'm probably saying something you already know, the tolerance to MDMA isn't simply downregulation. There's also the neurotoxicity of oxidized dopamine hurting serotonin receptors, correct?
1. This would lead to neurotoxicity (neuron death) rather than downregulation. However, having no neurons to be stimulated will produce similar effects to having neurons resistant to stimulation
2. As I understand it, the oxidized dopamine theory was disproved
I believe you on being in tune with your body - I am the same way. As far as what is different about you: neurochem is just my hobby, I by no means have a degree in this field, and I really don't know enough to say. It is possible you have naturally low levels of MAO (mono-amine oxidase - the stuff responsible for breaking down serotonin). It could also be that you do not experience downregulation, in which case I WANT WANT WANT to study you (as do many other people in the world). However, if you have ever experienced a tolerance to a drug, this isn't the case. In fact, if you didn't experience downregulation, I don't think you'd even be alive...so we can take that off the table. Other possibilities are that you are on an anti-depressent, or that your brain chemistry is significantly different than most. And finally...I could just be plain wrong, or there is something extra going on that I don't understand. (possibly different areas of the brain lead to serotonin syndrome and rolling, and MDMA doesn't affect the same areas as 5htp supplementation?).
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MDMA displaces 5-HT (and DA, and NE, and others) by adsorbing to the same site on some proteins, causing 5-HT (et al) to desorb and possibly leave the cell or be catabolized. When MDMA binds, it exerts a different inductive (electronic) effect on the protein than the 5-HT did, which is propagated through the protein, altering its binding affinities for other substances and other proteins, and which accounts for part of its effects (in addition to the effects of 5-HT being displaced). I believe that this is how substances as closely related as 2C-B and 2C-I (or MDMA and MDA, etc.) can have distinctly different physiological effects. The neuroscientists who reduce the effects of psychedelics to changing the levels of endogenous neurotransmitters probably haven't tried them.
I'm not saying your body is regulating the conversion of 5htp to 5ht - it's pretty much a fixed rate. But what this means is that you can only produce so much serotonin per unit time. This will still increase the overall levels of serotonin in the body, and because there is more it will also be broken down faster. At some point it will reach an equilibrium. At this heightened level, it will be enough to cause downregulation but not enough to cause serotonin syndrome.
It is possible that your body wasn't able to produce enough serotonin on it's own, and so supplementation of 5htp will currently and always will fix this problem. However, you are likely to experience heightened mood and euphoria until you return to baseline. Once this reaches equilibrium, stopping the supplementation of 5htp will likely cause you to return to and exceed your previously low levels. All of this is dose dependent though.
Decarboxylation of hydroxytryptophan is an enzyme-catalyzed (P5P-dependent) reaction, which depends on the amount of enzyme, the presence of Pyridoxal Phosphate (B6, the cofactor which holds on to 5-HTP and accepts its electrons), and probably the ions adsorbed onto the protein. This, and the general increase in brain serotonin with age, suggest that 5-HTP -> 5-HT does not occur at a fixed rate.
Tryptophan is one of the amino acids that is consumed in greatest excess by the majority of people; muscle (meat) is full of tryptophan, and low in glycine, which antagonizes the excitatory effects of serotonin. Unsaturated fats also increase the formation of serotonin, so there's usually more than enough of that. More serotonin isn't necessarily a good thing, especially not on its own.
http://raypeat.com/articles/aging/tryptophan-serotonin-aging.shtml
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Decarboxylation of hydroxytryptophan is an enzyme-catalyzed (P5P-dependent) reaction, which depends on the amount of enzyme, the presence of Pyridoxal Phosphate (B6, the cofactor which holds on to 5-HTP and accepts its electrons), and probably the ions adsorbed onto the protein. This, and the general increase in brain serotonin with age, suggest that 5-HTP -> 5-HT does not occur at a fixed rate.
I am aware that it isn't actually fixed, and we could argue the technicalities for a long time. However, this thread isn't for advanced neurochem - it is giving advice on when to take 5htp and try and explain it to people in a way they can understand. In the context of the situation I was talking about, 5htp -> 5ht can be assumed to be fixed. Adding all this extra information does not serve to help people understand.
Tryptophan is one of the amino acids that is consumed in greatest excess by the majority of people; muscle (meat) is full of tryptophan, and low in glycine, which antagonizes the excitatory effects of serotonin. Unsaturated fats also increase the formation of serotonin, so there's usually more than enough of that. More serotonin isn't necessarily a good thing, especially not on its own.
Yes, but the rate-limiting step in tryptophan -> serotonin production lies in the tryptophan hydroxylase. By supplementing with 5htp, you are skipping this step and thereby increasing actual 5ht production.
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I used to buy 5-htp for the day after rolling in case I felt the post-mdma depression that most people experience. I never really ended up needing it, but I would give it to my friend who was always really depressed the day after and he said it helped a lot. I have never taken it before rolling because I heard that it wasn't a good idea.
I also tried taking it on a daily basis to see if it would act as a sort of anti-depressant but after a month or so I didn't notice any effects so I stopped buying it. I have heard l-tryptophan works better but I have never tried it because I haven't seen it around in any pharmacies.
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I am aware that it isn't actually fixed, and we could argue the technicalities for a long time. However, this thread isn't for advanced neurochem - it is giving advice on when to take 5htp and try and explain it to people in a way they can understand. In the context of the situation I was talking about, 5htp -> 5ht can be assumed to be fixed. Adding all this extra information does not serve to help people understand.
This isn't advanced neurochem; the rate of decarboxylation of amino acids depends on the presence of P5P, and taking B6 increases the rate of formation of 5-HT (and DA, and NE, et al).
Yes, but the rate-limiting step in tryptophan -> serotonin production lies in the tryptophan hydroxylase. By supplementing with 5htp, you are skipping this step and thereby increasing actual 5ht production.
That's true, but I don't see what that has to do with what you quoted.
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Taking 5htp by itself doesn't put you at risk of serotonin syndrome. Taking large amounts of 5htp will only cause you to throw up.
False. I developed serotonin syndrome while taking 5-htp (and I was not taking any recreational drugs). I think you're thinking tryptophan or something.
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Were you taking prescription drugs?
Using small to moderate amounts of 5-HTP in itself is not dangerous, but when also taking SSRI's (like prozac) at the same time there is a seriously increased risk of serotonin syndrome.
5-HTP is very different from tryptophan in pharmacology - tryptophan doesn't cross the blood-brain barrier, but 5-HTP does. This increases the risk of central nervous effects of serotonin symptom when taking 5-HTP instead of tryptophan while on any kind of reuptake inhibitor.
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It is possible you have naturally low levels of MAO (mono-amine oxidase - the stuff responsible for breaking down serotonin). It could also be that you do not experience downregulation, in which case I WANT WANT WANT to study you (as do many other people in the world). However, if you have ever experienced a tolerance to a drug, this isn't the case. In fact, if you didn't experience downregulation, I don't think you'd even be alive...so we can take that off the table. Other possibilities are that you are on an anti-depressent, or that your brain chemistry is significantly different than most. And finally...I could just be plain wrong, or there is something extra going on that I don't understand. (possibly different areas of the brain lead to serotonin syndrome and rolling, and MDMA doesn't affect the same areas as 5htp supplementation?).
I experience tolerance, but I'm more tolerant to some chemicals than others... for instance I gain tolerance to stimulants and dissociatives quickly but I have more or less the same (see also: none) tolerance for weed, benzos, and opiates.
I'm not on an anti-depressant, I'm on a mood stabilizer (lamotrigine). I tried wellbutrin but it created rapid-cycling in me and my resulting mania was the cause of my diagnosis as bipolar - I seem to be overly sensitive to norepinephrine and not so sensitive to dopamine, so anything stimulating tends to make me manic. Strangely this isn't the case with amphetamines, which don't make me manic even at high doses - only some hypomania at high doses.
My serotonin levels are almost definitely naturally low. I have always eaten a diet consisting of lots of meat and dairy, which if I understand correctly means a diet high in tryptophan. However I was always morose until taking 5-htp, despite a diet that should have increased my serotonin levels. Depression and mental disease run in my family and those in my family who take 5-htp experience a similar benefit from it as well. I believe we are unfortunately unable to create serotonin as well as other people are. I personally believe that this is the cause of some forms of clinical depression and that in some cases a little extra serotonin would completely cure all symptoms... this is the case for me at least, because between a mood stabilizer and 5-htp I am finally HAPPY.
I don't know what to make of all of that, though. If anything it makes me think that perhaps general advice about supplements as psychoactive as 5-htp should be taken with a grain of salt and that each person should be considered on their own before someone recommends 5-htp or another supplement.
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http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/showthread.php?t=108415
I would highly suggest reading this folks. Goes through details on why you should take certain supplements and when prior to consumption. Hope this helps some people out, it sure did for me.