Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Goregasm on October 30, 2011, 08:07 pm
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I am a 16 year old male in his Junior year of high school.
Psychedelics have been something I've been very interested in for a long time. I started smoking marijuana last year, and have about six times. Me and my friends bought some salvia, and i told them the only other drug i would do in high school was maybe psilocybin mushrooms during senior year. They were both like 'oh no, don't fuck with that shit', because apparently they'd heard stories about people being fucked for life mentally after using mushrooms just once. I checked the internet to see if there were any validity to these claims, and i read that it can cause latent schizophrenia to emerge.
This is worrying because my aunt on my dad's side has severe schizophrenia (it was child-onset), and she is always swatting her hand, telling people to stop talking about her, etc. and hardly functions as a normal person. My grandfather (her father) was bipolar.
I almost definitely have some form of depression, I am very introverted, hate my home life, my school situation, and think about suicide alot (I've decided that it's not something I'll seriously consider unless my life as an adult sucks as much as now). My depression might just be because I'm so unhappy with my current situation, and everyone says life gets better after high school. But reading about schizophrenia, i show some early signs (that could also be other things entirely). One of the big things is that I grind my teeth alot, and move my tongue around in my mouth in unusual ways (I can usually control this, but often i don't really care), which is supposedly an early sign. When I'm really tired, I hear people I know say completely random things, but it sounds like it's actually in my ear. Its usually only a few words, and is likely just an audio hallucination from lack of sleep.
So my questions are these. Should I take magic mushrooms? I was actually quite looking forward to the experience, and as it turns out, the same schizophrenic theory applies to all psychedelics. These were one of the things I had to look forward to being able to do once I start my own life. Is this theory even valid? I've heard some people say that the two aren't even connected. By 'latent disorders', do they mean that the disorder takes effect while under the influence, or does it trigger it for good?
Sorry this was so long, I just want the best feedback possible, as this is obviously very important to my health. Any comments are appreciated, but citations to actual research or professional advice would be most helpful. Feel free to ask questions.
Thanks ;D
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I'm not sure about you guys but i think the line that worried me the most was
"I am a 16 year old male in his Junior year of high school."
While I'm sure there's someone on here with some in depth knowledge on the topic.
In my opinion you shouldn't do ANY psychedelic substances until your brain has fully developed.
Also i don't condone the use of psychedelics while your "depressed" and thinking about "suicide a lot"
This will only increase the chance of a bad trip.
Yes mushrooms does have the potential to trigger a mental illness permanently.
but some while on the substance have said they feel insane at the time
but this fades away.. Some people often end up bad tripping for this reason
because they feel like it will be like that forever.
In the end you have mental illnesses in your family, the risk is clearly there, don't ask
anonymous people you don't know and may have no real credentials
for professional advice. Go to a PROFESSIONAL.
Although i have bipolar and depression on both sides of my family,
I've done lsd,mushrooms,marijuana,salvia,dmt and more.. and i
don't feel any worse off.. Sure they have had a huge impact on my life
but i would not call it a negative one.
Personally i think Salvia is more fucked than mushrooms.
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If you are really depressed you should go to a doctor for an evaluation. I doubt there are any professionals here who will help you with that.
Don't give in to peer pressure. If you decide to eat some anyway make sure not to take much the first time before you know how your mind and body react to them. A gram should be good for a threshold experience.
The effects range from heaven to hell with psychedelics. For the best experience never take them when in a bad mood, depressed, or anxious. That can lead to a bad trip.
Mushrooms can be amazing with good friends in a place you feel safe. I like natural surroundings such as parks and forests.
Your life will be as good as you make it. Be careful, and don't do anything you're not comfortable with that you will regret. When you need help don't be afraid to ask.
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Responding to jesusjoints:
"In my opinion you shouldn't do ANY psychedelic substances until your brain has fully developed."
-Then at what age would you constitute fully-developed? Mid-20s?
"Also i don't condone the use of psychedelics while your "depressed" and thinking about "suicide a lot"
This will only increase the chance of a bad trip."
-I feel depressed alot when I'm alone, but when I'm with people that I like, I feel normal, and would be doing it with these people.
"In the end you have mental illnesses in your family, the risk is clearly there, don't ask
anonymous people you don't know and may have no real credentials
for professional advice. Go to a PROFESSIONAL. "
-I was kinda hoping someone would have a link to some professional source or something. I can't exactly go to my doctor and ask if he thinks I should take mushrooms. As for professional advice on whether I'm schizophrenic or not, I figure if I am, it's inevitable, there's no point getting treatment till it starts effecting my life.
"Personally i think Salvia is more fucked than mushrooms."
-Haven't done it yet, but I have it. Does this carry the same risks? I haven't heard anything about salvia being linked to this stuff, but I suppose it is still a psychedelic.
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Salvia is weird. It's nothing like shrooms or most other psychedelics. The 10x I had was too strong for me. Maybe you'll find it different.
I don't have stats, but permanent mental problems from one trip can't be too common. Look at all the trip reports online and talk to friends who've taken hallucinogens to see what they say. I had a bad trip and so did a couple people I know. We all recovered in a couple hours when the drugs wore off. I haven't heard of anyone with long term damage outside of news stories. The individuals who suffer permanent changes were likely heading toward schizophrenia anyway and the trip just brought it out sooner.
I believe the brain is fully developed by about 25. Plenty of people drink and drug before 25 so I don't know how dangerous it is at specific ages. The younger you start, the higher the risk since the brain is less developed.
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I havnt heard any mention of ecstasy, now theres a drug I would recomend to a person who is depressed or down in the dumps
your pretty much guaranteed to feel 1000% happy and good and psycadelic and bouncy(if you know you are getting good stuff that is)
most of the others I wouldnt recomend while suicidal or depressed, mushrooms makes me really giggly though
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Many of us here started these things when we were teens. It means that we have experience, but at the same time we've lost perspective, being as old as we are. I don't think messing with addictive substances is good when you're young, but occasional drug use isn't going to turn you into an addict or destroy your mind.
If you're going to do something that could change your mind as drastically as drugs can and do, you should probably think twice if you're already "hearing things" when you get sleepy. That is not normal, unless you're going like a week without sleep.
I'd say, chances are good that with your family history and the fact that you're hearing voices, you should probably seek help from a professional. If they treat you early, you may never have an issue.
Our minds are all we have, really. If you lose it, you would probably not care or understand, but everyone around you would be affected.
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Responding to davekozy:
“Salvia is weird. It's nothing like shrooms or most other psychedelics. The 10x I had was too strong for me. Maybe you'll find it different.”
-I’ve been told how different it is, but I guess I was wondering if it carries the same risk of triggering mental illness.
Responding to biscuit:
“I havnt heard any mention of ecstasy, now theres a drug I would recomend to a person who is depressed or down in the dumps”
-I wasn’t planning on doing ecstasy until out of high school, since I always viewed it as a party drug, specifically for raves. I can’t get into any raves, and if I showed up to a school dance on ecstacy…well, people would notice when I’m in stark contrast to how I normally act. Also, I have a girlfriend who sees ecstasy as a dangerous drug, but now its starting to look like that would be a better senior replacement for mushrooms. So I’ll think about it.
Responding to ProudCannabian:
“I don't think messing with addictive substances is good when you're young, but occasional drug use isn't going to turn you into an addict or destroy your mind.”
-The only drugs I planned on doing in my entire life are weed, salvia, shrooms, LSD, ecstasy, and mescaline. I was never gonna fuck with any notorious addictives or stimulants, and dissassociatives lost their luster after Big Lurch. I recognize waiting till I’m older is the smart thing to do, but I plan on having a family (probably in my thirties), so if I waited till I was 25, that wouldn’t leave much time for experimenting with this stuff. Also, what is college for?
“If you're going to do something that could change your mind as drastically as drugs can and do, you should probably think twice if you're already "hearing things" when you get sleepy. That is not normal, unless you're going like a week without sleep.”
-This probably sounds a lot worse than it is. My friend has confessed something similar. And it doesn’t happen if I’m staying up late over my computer, it’s as I’m falling asleep.
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Responding to jesusjoints:
"In my opinion you shouldn't do ANY psychedelic substances until your brain has fully developed."
-Then at what age would you constitute fully-developed? Mid-20s?
"Also i don't condone the use of psychedelics while your "depressed" and thinking about "suicide a lot"
This will only increase the chance of a bad trip."
-I feel depressed alot when I'm alone, but when I'm with people that I like, I feel normal, and would be doing it with these people.
"In the end you have mental illnesses in your family, the risk is clearly there, don't ask
anonymous people you don't know and may have no real credentials
for professional advice. Go to a PROFESSIONAL. "
-I was kinda hoping someone would have a link to some professional source or something. I can't exactly go to my doctor and ask if he thinks I should take mushrooms. As for professional advice on whether I'm schizophrenic or not, I figure if I am, it's inevitable, there's no point getting treatment till it starts effecting my life.
"Personally i think Salvia is more fucked than mushrooms."
-Haven't done it yet, but I have it. Does this carry the same risks? I haven't heard anything about salvia being linked to this stuff, but I suppose it is still a psychedelic.
Many studies indicate that a brain is fully developed at age 25,
i suggest waiting until your 20 at least..
16 is far to young and your mind is still in a very fragile state.
if you wait and do it when your older i'm sure you'd appreciate it more as well.
(in the end i can not stop you.)
"-I feel depressed alot when I'm alone, but when I'm with people that I like, I feel normal, and would be doing it with these people. "
once i did mushrooms when i was with people and i had never felt more alone in my life haha.
"there's no point getting treatment till it starts effecting my life."
many proffessionals believe the sooner you identify the issue and tackle it
the less chance it has of effecting you in the future.
"I can't exactly go to my doctor and ask if he thinks I should take mushrooms."
I wouldn't phrase it like that, i would get evaluated by a doctor to see
if you may have any mental issues.. Perhaps a physciatrist would be good?
"Haven't done it yet, but I have it. Does this carry the same risks? I haven't heard anything about salvia being linked to this stuff, but I suppose it is still a psychedelic."
Mushrooms have never really given me a bad come down and i always felt somewhat in controll.
I did salvia 60x and it was beyond fucked, i did not recognise my voice, where i was, who i was..
time it's self slowed down and my vision kept repeating it's self and i couldnt stop laughing like a mad man..
when i came out of the trip i felt really drowsy, confused, hungry, sweaty and my heart was racing..
The issue with salvia is there is not really any proper research done on it so you
don't really know what it's going to do to you and you can only rely off other peoples experiences
but from what i've seen salvia effects everyone in a different way... no trip is the same.
(all that being said i feel fine now and so do all of my friends, although when they were
tripping 2 of them thought they had died)
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Thank you for asking questions if you were concerned... especially when it comes to drug use and your health. You really should do as much research as possible before ingesting any psychoactive chemical, so you are on the right track. Sorry this is so long, but it was a complicated question.
First off, you have received some great advice already. Mainly you should get a mental health evaluation by a professional, if for no other reason than to alleviate some of your worry. And you should wait at least until after high school, if not longer to begin experimenting with anything in my opinion. I am no psychiatric professional or medical doctor. I cannot diagnose your symptoms. But I do have a passion for psycopharmacology so I will try to answer your questions to the best of my ability.
Second, I really would not suggest MDMA (aka ecstasy) for someone who is depressed. You will feel great for a few hours but then the next day the miserable feeling will be back and even worse.... so you may do some more, and the depression and anxiety can just get so much worse. Plus 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine is far far far too neurotoxic for my liking. Probably not as much so as regular methamphetamine... but still is not a drug that should be used with ANY frequency. This is almost a guaranteed way to stress the dopaminergic and serotonergic systems, which are implicated in schizophrenia.
There is some research that correlates illicit drug use with higher occurrences of schizophrenia as an adult. There is more evidence that WEED increases your risk factor more than typical 5HT-2A psychedelics. Even people with no other risk factors have been shown to be at a higher risk just because of smoking marijuana. This is mainly associated with THC, because another component in the more sedating indica strains, cannabidiol, may actual have anti-psychotic properties. The endocannabinoid system is responsible for fine tuning the neural circuits involving dopamine, serotonin, and glutamate... and when these systems lose the precise control maintaining the balance, it can lead to the symptoms classified as schizophrenia. Drugs that target the receptors involved in these neurotransmitter systems often have an ability (in chronic/high dosage situations) to induce psychosis that resembles schizophrenia. Basically, drugs like LSD, amphetamine, PCP and cannabis, have been used in research to produce psychotic states that model schizophrenia. Often the symptoms improve once the use of the drug is discontinued. However, use of these drugs could stress/disrupt these neural circuits, and may permanently interrupt their normal function... leading to long term changes in susceptible individuals, which could cause schizophrenia.
If you want more information a decent review is at: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3024828/
Salvia is a much more messed up and terrifying drug than basically anything else I have experienced. I too felt like I had died, and was in some sort of purgatory, but the only thing I could feel was that I done something terribly wrong and was going to be punished for it. I disassociated for a good ten minutes evidently. One friend had a nervous breakdown, another one pissed himself. I have heard more horror stories about it than any other chemical. It is just as dangerous, if not more, than the illegal psychedelics. The only reason it is legal is because the trip is a horrible experience! There have been reported instances of psychosis induced after the use of Salvia!
If you prepare yourself, are in decent mental health (as in, after talking to a professional), and are in the correct setting, I believe psychedelics can be safely used in responsible dosages. I have pretty severe anxiety and mushrooms have always felt sinister in a way to me, so I do not enjoy them nearly as much... but LSD and mescaline I would highly recommend! Mescaline to me is a very nice natural blend of the psychedelic and euphoric aspects (resembling some aspects of MDMA) that can be fairly gentle in lower dosages. I would personally suggest getting the "all clear" from a mental health professional, and then buying a cutting of a Trichocereus (now named Echinopsis but not often called so) species. Plant it, and you can take the next two years to cultivate the cactus spirit and then do an A/B extraction (if youre savvy and dedicated, to accurately dose) or make a simple tea, and you will hopefully have the desired experience. Complete with the necessary purging followed by waves of essentially spiritual energy.
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Could not agree with microRNA more!
As for the guy pissing himself on salvia,
one of my friends pissed himself on mushrooms
cause he thought cops were coming so he tried to hide
the smell of weed by urinating on himself.
We laughed so hard about it.. poor guy was scared out of his mind.
(interesting thing was he was fairly experienced with mushrooms
and had done it at least 5 times.)
also MESCALINE IS AWESOME!
MUST get my hands on some more of that stuff ASAP.
but no one is really selling it on silkroad :(
MicroRNA
I'd love to know if you have any advice on
LSD + DMT
or PASSIONFLOWER+LSD
or PASSIONFLOWER+LSD+DMT
I'm planning to do the 3rd combo fairly
soon and I'd be interested to hear your thoughts
if you have any opinion to shed on this whatsoever.
but if you don't that's cool, just always
good to get some outside opinion.
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Alright, so here’s what’s up.
I decided to post on these forums because, ironically enough, it’s probably the most mature and well-natured forum I’ve ever been on, and I knew I wouldn’t get any ‘drugs are bad, m’kay’ responses. But my mom has been trying to get me to see a psychiatrist for awhile now, so that is actually probably going to happen. But when I said I was depressed, that was mostly as a possible symptom of schizophrenia, and I don’t really see it as an isolated problem for drug use, as it really does vary greatly and I think a lot of it is rooted in just how unhappy I am with the STATE of my life right now, but maybe this is just my naïve viewpoint as I obviously don’t have any experience.
I also was more concerned about being fucked up mentally long term, or for life, as opposed to just having a bad trip. That’s not really something I fear or worry about to much. I’m pretty open about just having interesting or perspective altering experiences in general, positive or negative. I had sleep paralysis three times in one week a couple months ago, and even then I was able to see something interesting and unique about it. But, again, I can’t know for sure.
The salvia thing is almost definitely gonna happen. We got two grams of 5x extract, with the original intention of getting one g 15x, but ultimately decided to start gentler. My girlfriend has put this on hold for me, probably for a couple of months. So I’ll likely have seen a psychiatrist before salvia even becomes a possibility.
As for everything else, well…I’m not really sure. My original intention was to introduce a new substance of the list I put in an earlier response every year or two, escalating in intensity so I would be prepared. I had chose to maybe start mushrooms next year because I’d heard they were a good threshold into psychedelics, and were still a natural substance. While I probably won’t wait till I’m 25 to do ANYTHING, I think I will just stick with the two on my immediate agenda for the rest of high school.
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Bad trips can really scar people sometimes..
even though i've had frightening and stressful moments on psychedelics
i wouldn't call any of my trips a bad trip.. Once my xgf did acid and had such
a bad trip that she dint leave her house for 3 months straight. she say she "still feels effected by it"
but who knows if that was even acid she took.
I don't know you well enough nor am i a professional
so i can't really give you advice in that department.
I did Salvia 5x extract and didn't even feel it.
But the effects vary from people and perhaps i just got a really weak batch.
salvia is interesting cause i find that you don't gain tolerance to it's effects
but infarct you lose tolerance. I find that every trip I've had has been more and more
intense and many of my friends feel the same.
I'm glad i feel like I've helped someone.
keep in mind I'm a hypocrite and i did drugs when i was younger.
But i always wished that i had waited cause i feel like
i didn't appreciate them as much and i worry about the effect
it has had considering my brain was undeveloped at the time.
I personally believe mescaline is the best substance to start on.
but hey! Mushrooms are one of my favorite drugs!
Mushrooms + Weed = Best combination ever.
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If you are willing to set up the setting for a good trip and are completely okay with all possible consequences, no matter how unlikely, then I say go for it.
Your maturity is good, but, (as stated previously), It is best to wait until the brain develops fully to really explore the pathways of life.
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I started with weed at 18 then it progressed from there. I guess pot really is a gateway drug.
The 5x salvia is a good place to start. For me, 10x was too strong for first time experimenting. Only a couple hits out of a weed pipe had me tripping. I can't say it was good or bad. Really it was neither, just different. I still have the rest of the gram I bought over a year ago. I certainly wouldn't have any mushrooms or mescaline around that long. Salvia is worth trying, but not used regularly. I smoked it a few times then just put it away. It seems unlikely salvia would cause a long term problem unless you smoke too much too often. I didn't know about the reverse tolerance. The trip is very short like DMT only 10 to 15 minutes. An hour later I hardly felt any residual effects. Try a small dose and slowly increase from there. A minority of people are very sensitive or insensitive to a chemical. I can eat a whole bag of peanuts while a single piece can kill someone who's allergic.
I rarely purge, but eating the cactus whole would do it. The San Pedro tea digested fine even though it tasted like chewed up pills. The key is boiling it long enough. At least two hours is needed to break down the soap like stuff bubbling on top. It's good when it stops foaming. I grew a cutting for a few months then made mild tea with it that I kept in the refrigerator for months before I drank it and it still worked. You can order different sized cuttings online. Try a few and plant the rest. The cacti have several related active compounds that aren't in pure mescaline so the experience can be different.
Mushrooms are very intense if you take enough. Don't underestimate them. I have been more out of my mind on them than LSD or mescaline. I dialed 911 because I thought I was dying then came to my senses and called back to say I was fine. They didn't appreciate that so the police and paramedics showed up anyway. I have to thank my dad for covering my ass. He told them I was all right and they left without even talking to me and my saucer sized pupils. The ones I didn't eat were still growing in my closet.
Bad trips can mess with your head, some more than others. My friends and I fortunately have not had noticeable permanent mental damage. Any craziness we exhibited passed after the trip ended. Your experiences will be unique. LSD and mescaline can last 12 hours or more. With the distortion of time this might feel like forever. Mushrooms last around 6 hours and the comedown is shorter and more relaxing. LSD and mescaline have more stimulant effects making it difficult for me to eat or sleep for 12 to 16 hours and feel harder on my body and mind. Daytime trips can be great. I'm naturally in a better mood on nice, sunny days and less tired.
Certain medications like SSRI's diminish the effects of psychedelics and greatly reduce ecstasy's effects. Taking vitamin C before dosing can protect the brain from oxidative damage. Magnesium can reduce muscle stiffness and jaw clenching. 5-HTP and l-tyrosine can help replenish serotonin and dopamine after a trip or roll to lessen a depressive, lethargic hangover.
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I understand what you mean about being unhappy with your situation and I too have to say that I hated high school. Everything seemed to improve once I started college. I still believe it will be beneficial for you to talk to someone. Just simply having someone to discuss your situation with may help you feel better. I do not really condone the medication however. Some people can be helped tremendously (deficient SERT transporter isoforms), but like you said some of it is just the way society is today. We were not meant to live this way and it makes us disconnected and depressed. It is not good to take such powerful medicine long term while young. Depression is not a serious factor when it comes to drug use generally, except that it makes a person more vulnerable to addiction because the drugs can be used as an escape, and it is easier than one realizes to slip into trouble.
For schizophrenia, the genetic link is fairly distant. The chances are about 13% if one of your parents had it. Inheritance is also stronger on the fathers side. So they may be a very low risk of you being affected. (Since you mentioned more long term were you still curious? ->) There are studies correlating illicit drug use, especially marijuana, to a higher risk of developing schizophrenia later in life. The effects for cannabis occur in a dose dependent manner (frequency and dosage) and risk increases the younger someone is when they start. There are fewer papers on this topic, and even less that are free. One good one indicates that that risk nearly doubles. But the risk is only 1/10000 in the first place... so the odds are still veryyy low. Search for "Cannabis Use and the Risk of Later Schizophrenia: a review" by Smit in Google Scholar and you should be able to read the paper by viewing as an html.
I also hope I did not discourage you, I just recommend responsible use. I was nearly trying to suggest that the drug you have already consumed is more "dangerous" than the one you initially posted about. [I do not think marijuana is dangerous, although slightly addictive... *stops to hit bong* yes. Addictive like opiates... NO!] Most of the schizophrenia associated with psychedelics is simply society stigmatizing that of which it does not approve. Some people lost their minds on acid and did crazy things because they were dosed without consent or knowledge. Of course you are going to go crazy if you start tripping balls and didnt even know what a psychedelic chemical was... It is up to you to research drugs and decide which ones to do. Do not assume because it is legal that it is more safe. I believe alcohol is more dangerous than many illicit drugs. Just because it is a prescription, does not make it less addictive.
I could only find studies indicating LSD does not significantly increase the risk of schizophrenia long term. It has been administered in psychotherapy to previously psychotic patients without reappearance of their psychosis. LSD and Psilocin have also been tested in medical settings for cluster headaches and to reduce anxiety in terminally ill patients. Infrequent moderate dose LSD has not been shown to result in physiological changes in the brain. Use of MDMA produces neuron fiber damage through a neurotoxic metabolite as well as reversing the SERT transporter. This is why I suggested the alternative of Mescaline (a phenethylamine) as a way to get an idea of how it may feel yet remain relatively safe, plus its my favorite and not overwhelming in low doses to moderate doses. Psychedelics can certainly be very useful tools to break the narrow confines that has become reality. In many ways this can be beneficial, even spiritual, for some people, but for others it is too overwhelming or terrifying. Mushrooms (tryptamine) are shorter acting, so that may be one benefit for a first experience.
My first psychedelic experience was actually salvia 20X at 14! Ripped it in a bong and went to visit some crazy huge golden machine. Then my toes were pulled up over my chest (it was the blanket). i could spin in a circle and my arms would stay, forming a complete circle. Not completely pleasant or unpleasant but extremely intense. Since then I have only had two horrible trips. Just make sure you have a SOBER SITTER to watch you in case you try to crawl out of a window (it has been done, he went through the window though it wasnt open).
@davekozy, I actually have only tried a full spectrum STB extract. I still get sick interestingly, but its wonderful because right after I have the most wonderful rushes of energy and connectedness. I forgot STB are the way to go over A/B because the alkaloid is so soluble in water...
@jesusjoints, I replied in your thread since you asked