Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: JoeHartley on April 01, 2013, 11:30 am

Title: A Simple Question
Post by: JoeHartley on April 01, 2013, 11:30 am
Ok, so I completely understand the desire to distance oneself as much as possible from one's use of SR. But here is my question:
As we all know, it is best to deny any knowledge of ordering drugs if the police come knocking on the door saying that they have seized a shipment addressed to you. Plausible deniability is the way to go, as the police have to prove "beyond any reasonable doubt" that you did in fact order said package. Say you do this, and the police return with a search warrant and they search your computer. In my case at least, they would find the Tor Browser Bundle, but apart from that just normal legal stuff. Presuming that nothing related to SR is saved on the computer, no passwords or usernames, and no tormail addresses, only PGP encryption software; I fail to see how a single shipment of drugs and a copy of the Tor browser is sufficient evidence to "prove beyond reasonable doubt" that one did in fact order drugs over SR.

I'm not suggesting that everyone stop using their Live USBs and what not, but if I'm missing something here then please could someone fill me in?
- JH
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 01, 2013, 03:00 pm
A simple answer.  It isen't!  Enjoy your drugs and always use caution!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lelmeriodici on April 02, 2013, 01:54 am
Eh, slow down there...

Assuming you are in the US.....
If police search your computer and find what I like to call "SR paraphernalia" they may or may not realize its significance.  If they do, you can expect them to get motivated to continue their search.  That could, in your case, include subpoenaing you to provide the password to your accounts online (as such a precedent has been set that you must do so or face possible arrest and contempt of court charges).

I recommend keeping a clean, unencrypted, computer when receiving packages.  Not to mention a clean house with ZERO paraphernalia, scales, expensive lighters, etc. will go a long way.

Good luck and send me postcards from prison, :)
lelmeriodici
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 02, 2013, 02:21 am
That was not the question posed.  He was asking if they only found the Tor Browser, would he be in any legal trouble!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: Kaleb12 on April 02, 2013, 02:55 am
Tor is legal freeware
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: AllDayLong on April 02, 2013, 03:04 am
That was not the question posed.  He was asking if they only found the Tor Browser, would he be in any legal trouble!

They would definitely try, why take the chance? Lawyers are fucking expensive. Just be safe as the other 1000 posts explain how to do.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: Chaosforpeace on April 02, 2013, 03:10 am
It depends on your lawyer.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: AllDayLong on April 02, 2013, 03:15 am
Tor is legal freeware

Just like scales and plastic baggies are legal and used for many legal thing! Didn't stop millions of people having their charges raised to felonies whether they were selling or not.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lelmeriodici on April 02, 2013, 03:19 am
That was not the question posed.  He was asking if they only found the Tor Browser, would he be in any legal trouble!

I define "SR paraphernalia" as Tor, PGP, and shady browsing history.  If I were a cop and I knew what Tor is, finding it in the computer of someone living in America would raise a red flag and make me dig deeper, that's essentially what I meant to say.  It's not illegal by itself.

lelmeriodici
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: JoeHartley on April 02, 2013, 04:46 pm
Great, thanks for the feedback :)
So possession of Tor can't be used as proof that one ordered off SR, but it might be brought up as circumstantial evidence. I guess if that were to happen you could argue that you have Tor as a security measure when connecting to public wifi, and PGP to encrypt pornography so that a significant other or someone wouldn't find it.
I'm pretty sure I'm going to sell this computer and buy a new one anyway, so I'll just run permanently off a LiveUSB.
- JH
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 02, 2013, 07:28 pm
That was not the question posed.  He was asking if they only found the Tor Browser, would he be in any legal trouble!

I define "SR paraphernalia" as Tor, PGP, and shady browsing history.  If I were a cop and I knew what Tor is, finding it in the computer of someone living in America would raise a red flag and make me dig deeper, that's essentially what I meant to say.  It's not illegal by itself.

lelmeriodici

Paraphernalia is only paraphernalia if it is found along with drugs.  In this case he only is theorizing being caught with the tor browser and a "claim" by LE that they have a shipment with his name and address.  Thats not enough to charge anyone with anything!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: AllDayLong on April 02, 2013, 11:45 pm
That was not the question posed.  He was asking if they only found the Tor Browser, would he be in any legal trouble!

I define "SR paraphernalia" as Tor, PGP, and shady browsing history.  If I were a cop and I knew what Tor is, finding it in the computer of someone living in America would raise a red flag and make me dig deeper, that's essentially what I meant to say.  It's not illegal by itself.

lelmeriodici

Paraphernalia is only paraphernalia if it is found along with drugs.  In this case he only is theorizing being caught with the tor browser and a "claim" by LE that they have a shipment with his name and address.  Thats not enough to charge anyone with anything!

Well, they can charge anyone with anything they want. Most people plead, it's getting the conviction that can be hard.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lelmeriodici on April 03, 2013, 02:29 am
Paraphernalia is only paraphernalia if it is found along with drugs.  In this case he only is theorizing being caught with the tor browser and a "claim" by LE that they have a shipment with his name and address.  Thats not enough to charge anyone with anything!
Jesus Christ.  I never once said "drug paraphernalia."  I was using the word figuratively, referring to any tools people who buy illegal things over the internet use.

And as AllDayLong said, cops can charge anyone with anything.  They, and prosecutors, might have to do more digging before they can really build a case, but you can be charged (constitutionally or not) for anything anytime. 
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 03, 2013, 04:29 am
Paraphernalia is only paraphernalia if it is found along with drugs.  In this case he only is theorizing being caught with the tor browser and a "claim" by LE that they have a shipment with his name and address.  Thats not enough to charge anyone with anything!
Jesus Christ.  I never once said "drug paraphernalia."  I was using the word figuratively, referring to any tools people who buy illegal things over the internet use.

And as AllDayLong said, cops can charge anyone with anything.  They, and prosecutors, might have to do more digging before they can really build a case, but you can be charged (constitutionally or not) for anything anytime.

I never once said drug paraphernalia either, but you did say paraphernalia!  Having tor alone on your computer is not paraphernalia!  As to the second part, whats the point of charging someone with something that cant be proven.  I understand what you are trying to say here, but think through it.  Cops don't make charges they can't prove, because it has to go up the chain of command into a court of law.  Sure they can, but u would either have to be stupid to be a victim of this, or too poor to afford a lawyer or even a decent public defender!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lelmeriodici on April 03, 2013, 05:45 am
I never once said drug paraphernalia either, but you did say paraphernalia!  Having tor alone on your computer is not paraphernalia!  As to the second part, whats the point of charging someone with something that cant be proven.  I understand what you are trying to say here, but think through it.  Cops don't make charges they can't prove, because it has to go up the chain of command into a court of law.

paraphernalia: "miscellaneous articles, especially the equipment needed for a particular activity."  I would call Tor and PGP programs (possibly with keys to vendors) the equipment needed to get drugs delivered to your doorstep. :P

The burden of proof for an arrest is "probable cause."  The burden of proof for criminal conviction is "beyond reasonable doubt."  Significant difference.  It is commonplace for district attorneys to continue investigation after an arrest to ensure a guilty verdict in large cases.  And if there isn't enough evidence, then the prosecutors simply won't take the case.

Quote
Sure they can, but u would either have to be stupid to be a victim of this, or too poor to afford a lawyer or even a decent public defender!
Judging by some of the posts newbies make, there are plenty of stupid new people on SR.  Not to mention people who would enter a plea bargain for a first-time offender program instead of spending the money (that they don't have) to fight it.  As far as public defenders go, that's one real fucking toss-up.  With some you'll be lucky if they even show up.

lelmeriodici
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 03, 2013, 06:20 am
Yes but the tor browser is not illegal and cannot lead to SR by itself!  I agree about stupid people, its a sad reality but they are everywhere.  If you are smart you can find a good public defender, all lawyers have to do pro bono work, simply go to the court and find out when a good lawyer is working as a public defender!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lelmeriodici on April 05, 2013, 03:01 am
No it's not illegal.  As I said in my first post on this thread, it could grab the attention of law enforcement and lead to continued investigation and more trouble.

Good luck convincing an AV rated lawyer that your case is worth their volunteer time–most lawyers don't even do their 50 hours... :P  It could happen, though.

lelmeriodici
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: JoeHartley on April 08, 2013, 05:51 pm
Ok great, so do you guys think it's possible for an intelligent person to reasonably defend themselves in court, with the evidence against them being a small amount of drugs shipped to them, a copy of Tor Browser Bundle and PGP Encryption software on their computer? I think it could be, but I'm not a lawyer.

I figured the argument for having Tor on the computer could be that one is interested in government conspiracies and that it was used to browse deepweb sites such as Parazite (http://kpynyvym6xqi7wz2.onion), The Tor Library (http://am4wuhz3zifexz5u.onion), or The Hidden Wiki (http://kpvz7ki2v5agwt35.onion/wiki/index.php/Main_Page). I guess it could also be argued that PGP software was used to encrypt sexually explicit messages sent between the computer's owner and their previous significant other's work email address, to avoid her boss detecting anything.

I should probably say that I currently have no need to defend myself in court, but I do get paranoid and like to have an escape / excuse route in my head ready to go ;)
- JH
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: pkizenko98 on April 29, 2013, 09:24 pm
You can absolutely defend yourself in court, as long as you know the law well enough! Check our NJweedman.  He has done it more than one time and won!
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lukeuser on April 30, 2013, 02:01 am
Circumstantial evidence *is* important. If real investigations are anything like those on TV  :D

Circumstantial evidence is everywhere, and hence is much easier to find. And can lead to further evidence gathering. If Tor is found on your computer, is could lead to a scan of your hard drive which potentially would never have otherwise happened. This could show evidence of Silkroad usage (I think that is possible even using Tor browser, could be wrong). Or they could look and find something in your house after a search.

I personally would prefer avoid getting arrested, rather then being guilty, arrested, and hoping they don't have a strong enough case for a conviction. And if you take care of these circumstantial, superficial things, then it means you might not have to keep your computer and house forensically clean.

That's not to say Tor and GPG would be enough by itself to lead to further investigation. This would presumably depend on how busy, or alternatively, determined they are. You could keep Tor and GPG on a secret USB drive or something.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: mrlavish on April 30, 2013, 11:00 pm
It seems a lot of people forget that drugs have been getting sent through the mail forever. Unless you have a large amount of product caught, more than likely they aren't gonna burst in full Swat style and seizing everything electronic in sight.

In most cases they probably think you buddy out "West" just sent you some party favors for the weekend.
Title: Re: A Simple Question
Post by: lukeuser on May 01, 2013, 01:11 am
It seems a lot of people forget that drugs have been getting sent through the mail forever. Unless you have a large amount of product caught, more than likely they aren't gonna burst in full Swat style and seizing everything electronic in sight.

In most cases they probably think you buddy out "West" just sent you some party favors for the weekend.

I didn't mean to blow anything out of proportion, you have a good point.
But it wouldn't hurt to keep you use of Tor hidden in case your computer was searched. If anything would prompt a full hard disk scan, surely seeing that you use Tor would be one.