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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Snoopish on September 03, 2012, 09:19 pm

Title: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 03, 2012, 09:19 pm
As I discussed in previous threads, I have been meaning to experiment with Meth as a productivity aid--well, I'm coming down from my first attempt at being productive on a light dose of meth. I hope this is helpful to anybody else considering such a use. Below:


Dosage: ~10mg insufflated meth (crushed from crystalline shards courtesy of darkexpresso)

Base: low energy. Unenthused and not eager to sit down to work.
T: 0:00 --snorted one long line
T: :15 -- much sniffing from the burning sensation. Took out trash. Familiar bitter taste runs down back of throat. Energy increased from low to a more middling area.
T :40 -- finished cleaning kitchen, folding and putting away laundry, started load of dishes. Meth brings out my compulsive need to clean.
T 1:00 -- finally sit down to read and get some work done. I'm easily absorbed into the article I'm reading. I find myself enthusiastically jotting down notes and writing down thought-provoking tangents and ideas that spawn from reading a few sentences.
T 1:30 -- enthusiasm is dissipating and I'm reading with less furious scribbling.
T 1:50 -- noticeable reduction of focus. Energy has or is dissipating
T 2:15 --sporadic yawning for past 30 minutes. Effects are pretty much gone or decreased to subtle levels.

I'm about at T 2:30 now and while I'm not back to baseline(unless my energy baseline naturally went up between T 0 and now), I imagine more work will be difficult without additional dosage. I'm debating the wisdom of another line. I'll update if I go down the "more productive" path.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 03, 2012, 09:43 pm
Try another 20 mg bump, or even better for study: take 30-50 mg orally. Seriously.

If that doesn't last more than 3 hours you have some shitty tina.

You're an Aussie if IIRC. Can I ask who the vendor was? If it's that yellow stuff, I've seen it's had bad reviews.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: painbow on September 03, 2012, 10:26 pm
meth seems like overkill just to get some work done... why not some ADD meds like adderall or ritalin?
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 04, 2012, 12:23 am
meth seems like overkill just to get some work done... why not some ADD meds like adderall or ritalin?

Exactly, and not Ritalin cause that drug sucks, but basically, yeah.

Meth is recreational and addictive. If you are purely looking to clean and do homework, just take a Vyvanse! or addie or whatever you prefer as far as that goes, but practically no addiction potential while being just as effective for academics = FUCK METH!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 04, 2012, 01:14 am
@le botbahn: I got my gram from darkexpresso. Good guy. Really easy to work with. Shipping was pretty fast too. It came in pretty clear, big shards also so I can't imagine how weak it could be. It was my first meth buy though. Not yellowish in the least

@everyone saying meth is bad: Yes meth is bad. I'm aware but it is a much cheaper way to go about doing this. Additionally, meth is enjoyable to take. I don't know how true that would be of adderall/etc.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 04, 2012, 03:47 am
@le botbahn: I got my gram from darkexpresso. Good guy. Really easy to work with. Shipping was pretty fast too. It came in pretty clear, big shards also so I can't imagine how weak it could be. It was my first meth buy though. Not yellowish in the least

@everyone saying meth is bad: Yes meth is bad. I'm aware but it is a much cheaper way to go about doing this. Additionally, meth is enjoyable to take. I don't know how true that would be of adderall/etc.

Cheers!

It's pretty true. Just not AS true (not physically addictive). Think about this, you are taking it for 'practical use'. How often could 'practical use' apply? Every day? Yes. Every hour or two? Think about it.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 04, 2012, 04:33 am
Hey, I get it. It's possible I'm hooked already. But I've tried several drugs that people warned me away from and I still manage my life fine. If this spins out of control then I'll have to face that. To give you an idea though, I didn't redose, meaning I've done less meth in the past seven days than most people would do in a single evening (even first timers).

Also, people recommend adderall as an alternative and after looking up the dosage in some of these pills, what I took today is much less than the max prescribed pill and less than the second strongest pill (20 mg) also. Pills often prescribed daily. Not a perfect analog but a reasonable comparison.

Again, I realize lots of people have issues with handling meth which is why I (believe I) am being so careful and respectful of the drug: I'm trying to be an example of how this drug can be used productively in addition to its recreation.

Cheers
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 04, 2012, 04:50 am
Desoxyn ( Rx d-meth amp) has been shown to be more effective and  better tolerated than dextroamphetamine in treating childhood adhd. The only reason it's not more commonly prescribed is the stigma surrounding methamphetamine.

So to say it's ineffective is simply false. I've found it no less.addicting than Rx amphetamine. Both are very much habbit forming. Generally I've found methamp to be more versatile and more tolerable physically.

Certainly, neither compounds are a good idea for everyone.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: skibler on September 04, 2012, 07:22 am
ive used meth a total of 3 times in the past 9 months. Tommorow will be 4th. its so subjective to even minor details in your life theres only one way to find out unfortunatley.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 04, 2012, 09:18 pm
Desoxyn ( Rx d-meth amp) has been shown to be more effective and  better tolerated than dextroamphetamine in treating childhood adhd. The only reason it's not more commonly prescribed is the stigma surrounding methamphetamine.

So to say it's ineffective is simply false. I've found it no less.addicting than Rx amphetamine. Both are very much habbit forming. Generally I've found methamp to be more versatile and more tolerable physically.

Certainly, neither compounds are a good idea for everyone.

Are you saying that RX methamphetamine is not physically addictive? I have been prescribed adderall/vyvanse for like 5 years now, and there have been times where I took one every day as prescribed for close to a year. Then one day I just stopped taking them, cold turkey. Felt great, the only difference being I probably ate a bit more and maybe took the occasional afternoon nap.  There is no such thing as 'cold turkey' with Adderall because it is simply not physically addictive. Meth is, that is the reason it is not prescribed daily, not just the stigma.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 04, 2012, 09:56 pm
@Bob

All these things are intense stimulants and likely to take a toll on the body. They're not the same drug but they're similar enough to make generalized comparisons

Without saying what your dosages are it's hard to say if you're an anomaly or if it's just low dosaging. If you're taking low amounts of adderall (keep in mind that if they are a 10mg pill, that doesn't mean 10 mg of amphetamine: there's other product in the pill) and it's on extended release, that's a very low amount of stimulant hitting your body at one time, even if you're taking it daily--chances of even building up a tolerance may be low with minimal dosage.

Try cracking open the adderall  pill or crushing it and then snort a line of what you have left. Same dosage but your body is getting more of it quicker meaning additional stress.

If I took the meth orally in a capsule I'd get the equivalent of an adderall IR pill of a similar dosage. It seems you're trying to compare the drugs as if they're two different drugs which isn't really the case--if you didn't notice any adverse effects from your adderall than a similar dosage of meth should work the same.

Cheers
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Carbonic on September 04, 2012, 11:19 pm
Snoopish, I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. I appreciate you spending the effort to provide us with some extra information.

Are you saying that RX methamphetamine is not physically addictive? I have been prescribed adderall/vyvanse for like 5 years now, and there have been times where I took one every day as prescribed for close to a year. Then one day I just stopped taking them, cold turkey. Felt great, the only difference being I probably ate a bit more and maybe took the occasional afternoon nap.  There is no such thing as 'cold turkey' with Adderall because it is simply not physically addictive. Meth is, that is the reason it is not prescribed daily, not just the stigma.

Frankly, you really have no evidence to back you up, it's all anecdotal. Adderall is amphetamine salts. It is physically addictive. We have no idea what regimen you were on, as Snoopish pointed out, but if it was relatively low, that might explain your experience.

But yeah, Snoopish, just in case I'd advise that you set out your regimen at least a week or two in advance - decide how much you'll take each day and stick to it. If you find yourself taking more than that amount, tell us so we can use that if we want to do something similar (I for one do). At a pre-determined point, quit cold turkey and see what happens. As always, keep us updated.

Thanks!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 05, 2012, 02:18 am
Snoopish, I just wanted to say thanks for doing this. I appreciate you spending the effort to provide us with some extra information.

But yeah, Snoopish, just in case I'd advise that you set out your regimen at least a week or two in advance - decide how much you'll take each day and stick to it. If you find yourself taking more than that amount, tell us so we can use that if we want to do something similar (I for one do). At a pre-determined point, quit cold turkey and see what happens. As always, keep us updated.

Thanks!

Thanks for the encouragement Carbonic :) I know this is a slippery slope but I believe there's a lot of potential to be had here at an affordable price. It won't be for everyone but I'm eager to provide as much helpful and practical information I can.

Your idea about setting up a schedule is a really good idea! I may start...tomorrow or the day after and see about writing up a schedule--it would ideally consist of times, dosages (of meth and anything else relevant--supplements will be the big hold up in starting this regimen), and work accomplished. I realized this past time that I need a clean work environment or it bothers me so I won't waste precious productivity on household chores again.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: painbow on September 05, 2012, 03:26 am
So what's your dosing regimen look like?  Doesn't meth keep you up at night?
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 05, 2012, 04:22 am
Desoxyn ( Rx d-meth amp) has been shown to be more effective and  better tolerated than dextroamphetamine in treating childhood adhd. The only reason it's not more commonly prescribed is the stigma surrounding methamphetamine.

So to say it's ineffective is simply false. I've found it no less.addicting than Rx amphetamine. Both are very much habbit forming. Generally I've found methamp to be more versatile and more tolerable physically.

Certainly, neither compounds are a good idea for everyone.

Are you saying that RX methamphetamine is not physically addictive? I have been prescribed adderall/vyvanse for like 5 years now, and there have been times where I took one every day as prescribed for close to a year. Then one day I just stopped taking them, cold turkey. Felt great, the only difference being I probably ate a bit more and maybe took the occasional afternoon nap.  There is no such thing as 'cold turkey' with Adderall because it is simply not physically addictive. Meth is, that is the reason it is not prescribed daily, not just the stigma.

I said that I've found them both to be equally habit forming. I've had to abrubtly cease taking both compounds at one point or.another. There was never any physical withdrawal in my experience. Only mental fatigue, lack of motivation, irritibility, and a desire for more. So personally, I've only experienced mental dependence, and equally so for both compounds.

Reports of physical dependency, as far as I am aware, are anecdotal. Some people are simply more suceptible to mental depency, and that itself is very much multifactorial in terms of individual life circumstances. That's not to say mental dependance can't be less destructive.

I took adderall for.a long time as well. When it was no longer available to be I decided to substitute it with the next available thing just.as Snoopish has decided. I've had to stop cold turkey on.several occasions.due to.financial constraints and the result was no different than cessation of adderall. I didn't begin stealing or sucking dick for more..I was sluggish for a few days.and got over it.

There's a great deal of variability between individuals, predisposition, life circumstances, and route of adminstration. Smoking and IV'ing are far more reinforcing and addictive due to the more rapid onset and bigger rush, followed by insuflation and oral.  All these things interplay to dictate one's susceptibility to habituation and dependence, be it physical or mental.

The trend of smoking and IV'ng meth caught on in the 90s and brought.about the addiction epidemic and imo, unfortunate demonization (perhaps justifiably so) of a compound that was sold over the counter just a couple decades prior.
You didn't see."faces of meth" or campaigning prior to the late 90s. Back in the day it was primarily taken orally or insuflated and thus addiction.wasn't as prevelent.

 I'm not advocating the.use of it as a study.aid. Nor do I advocate amphetamine. But the fact is, both can be effective and used responsibly (by some, not all), just as well as both.can be abused and be detrimental (also by some- not all). There is plenty of literature to support both sides of tbat statement.

Again, neither of these compounds are for everyone and generally best to avoid them.

And stigma is.exactly the reason it's not as widely prescribed. If physical addiction was the reason then prescribing/medical use of oxycontin, fentanyl, dilaudid and the likes would be just as uncommon (if not more so) than desoxn (Rx d-meth). Everyone being treated for pain would be stuck with tramadol and tylenol#3's because of the lowe abuse (physical addiction) potential.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 05, 2012, 05:47 am

And stigma is.exactly the reason it's not as widely prescribed. If physical addiction was the reason then prescribing/medical use of oxycontin, fentanyl, dilaudid and the likes would be just as uncommon (if not more so) than desoxn (Rx d-meth). Everyone being treated for pain would be stuck with tramadol and tylenol#3's because of the lowe abuse (physical addiction) potential.



But those drugs do have stigma attached to them, and they remain widely prescribed because a surgery patient or a victim of a car accident needs that medicine a hell of a lot more than some kid with 'ADD' needs Methamphetamine.

I don't buy the argument that dextro-amphetamine is basically the same thing as methamphetamine. Sorry, I just don't

My dosage schedule was varied, but for a while 30mg adderall  xr daily and there would be plenty of times, long days of school/work, where I would take 1.5 or 2 of my 30s (45-60+mg).  What you describe as being lethargic and dysphoric for a few days after cessation I have literally never experienced in my ~5 years of being prescribed adderall and vyvanse daily...

I regularly take weeks off of my vyvanse with absolutely no care about it. Only when I have crazy amounts of school work do I crave them, in the way that one would crave a shovel when they need to dig a hole.. The only thing I worry about when I don't have them is eating too much.  And I have a very addictive personality in general. You saying thats how it would be taking Meth every day?  I have never done it so I guess if you say so I won't call you a liar, but I am very skeptical.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 05, 2012, 01:26 pm
I never equated them. There are distinct pharmacological differences between them. I did.say.that.there is literature which suggests desoxyn is effective and well tolerated as adhd treatment, and that for me, amphetamine and methamphetamine were surprisingly similar to one another, when taken the same way, for ME. And that there is no physical addiction.

With the opiate analogy, that was geared more towards chronic pain where it's difficult or impossible to measure (prove) pain. Similar to.adhd. Both treatments are largely trial and error then titration of  anecdotal.reports of effectiveness for a particular medication. Just like vyvanse is.right for you, but not.everyone tolerates it as well and some others may not.respomd to it.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Lawnmower on September 05, 2012, 02:51 pm
I have seen a study (albeit only one) that tested oral methamphetamine and dexamphetamine on a group of patients.

In terms of clinical symptoms (body temperature, hyperactivity, whatever) they were identical, and in terms of 'recreational potential' neither drug was 'preferred' over the other. So overall, the study suggested that when taken in equivalent ROA's and dosages the drugs are very, very similar.

This is assuming methamphetamine is twice as potent (I think). So 10mg of meth orally would be equivalent to 20mg dex.

In my experience the ONLY difference between the two drugs is ROA. When insufflated they are both pretty similar - though meth lasts considerably longer and is somehow 'fuzzier' and more sociable where dex is focused and almost over-stimulating with moreperipheral stimulation and vasoconstriction. I have tried neither of them orally as I prefer the ability to titrate doses with more immediate ROA's.

The biggest difference - and this is a HUGE difference - between the two is the ability to smoke meth. This ROA exponentially increases euphoria and addiction potential. I'm absolutely sure if dexamphetamine could be smoked, we would have "faces of dex" campaigns. Apparently IV dex users are just as hooked and insane as IV meth users.  8)

Also, props to OP for bringing this up. There's too much bullshit surrounding meth and although it can undoubtedly be extremely detrimental to a user I want to believe that any drug can be used safely. I don't want to go through life sober, bored as fuck with nothing to look forward to. Though I will say I don't agree with using anything as a regular productivity aid. I have tried this during university and it affected my ability to store information (only while using - not permanent) my grades were overall actually lower until I went sober for studying and also it is a massive waste of awesome drugs  ;D

I am also about to embark on a serious quest to smoke meth recreationally once a week at dosages of around 50-100mg - a nice average session for me. Something to look forward to through the long, grey weeks of being a human. If this fails, well, I'm gonna have to stick to dexamphetamine and weed. Just waiting on the fucking drugs! >:(
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 06, 2012, 12:17 am
. When insufflated they are both pretty similar -


I now am realizing the desoxyn is 'dextro-methamphetamine', right? So is it possible that this conversation has been confused because dextro-meth and crystal meth are two drugs that are actually not chemically identical? Crystal Methamphetamine has no dextro in the name does it? Because if you are saying snorting adderall is about the same as sniffing as similar dose of crystal meth, I again would have to say, I don't believe you. Snorting adderall sucks, not that I haven't done it more than a few times over the years, but only to give me energy to drink and party at night and still be able to sleep at some point. Its barely euphoric at all, isn't good meth like ridiculously euphoric? Perhaps not so much when ingested, but when insufflated?

It was my understanding that there were plenty of full blown Meth heads that snort the shit more often than not. I live in a college town there is goddamn adderall everywhere, and there isn't a single trace of an amphetamine 'addiction' problem as I understand that word to be defined. You say you arn't trying to equate the two, but it seems like thats exactly what you are doing.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Lawnmower on September 06, 2012, 01:03 pm
Crystal methamphetamine is as far as I'm aware dextro-methamphetamine. The syntheses most commonly used today produce only the right-hand (dextro) isomer. The left-hand (levo) isomer is used as a decongestant and has very little (enjoyable) psychoactive effects. I have never tried racemic meth so I cannot comment further.

Adderall is, if I remember correctly, 75% dextro-amphetamine and 25% levo-amphetamine. It is also a mixture of phosphate and sulphate salts (can anyone correct me on this?)

From my experience insufflated meth is slightly more euphoric than dextroamphetamine. But the difference in euphoria is not huge. The main difference is in duration so the euphoric peak lasts considerably longer with meth. Smoked meth however is far more euphoric than insufflated dexamp. It becomes almost like a different drug when smoked.

In terms of comparing the two drugs, I was just mentioning a study that I had seen. However one study, as we should all know by now, is not the absolute truth.
Here is a link to a guy talking about the study : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wNS_aRxTqs

Maybe the lack of adderall addiction you have seen is due to cultural differences. I know lots of people who use adderall to study but not to party. Meth is more of a recreational drug. If you use a drug with the mindset that it is a medicine intended to help you study rather than using it as a way to have disgusting sex for 12 hours then the outcomes will be different. I never use stimulants to study - only to party- so I feel the same pull/cravings for regular dexamp as I do methamp. If I snort them both, neither feels more addictive the other. Only when I smoke meth do I get the really strong cravings.

The two substances can definitely be compared, and they are quite similar in many ways. I have no idea on the pharmacology of either substance however - this is just from experience.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 07, 2012, 02:47 am
Lawnmower- you are spot on with everything. +1
Your other comments on your experiences also sum up my sentiments exactly.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 07, 2012, 03:07 am
Yeah botbahn -- Lawnmower provided a lot of detailed information +1! I enjoy reading well-thought and well-educated discussions and Lawnmower definitely provided.

Cheers!
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 07, 2012, 03:54 am
"Methamphetamine has high potential for abuse and addiction, activating the psychological reward system by triggering a cascading release of dopamine in the brain.

As a result of methamphetamine-induced neurotoxicity to dopaminergic neurons, chronic abuse may also lead to post-withdrawal syndrome which persist beyond the withdrawal period for months, and even up to a year.[5] A study performed on female Japanese prison inmates suffering from methamphetamine addiction showed 20% experienced a psychosis resembling schizophrenia which persisted for longer than six months post-methamphetamine use"


Yes, that is wikipedia. I am not trying to be overly argumentative, you have more personal experience with this substance than I, which is some of the most authoritative information that there is when it comes to psychoactives in my opinion, but just as an FYI thats a wiki exerpt.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 07, 2012, 03:59 am
"Methamphetamine is highly addictive.[25] While the withdrawal itself may not be dangerous, withdrawal symptoms are common with heavy use and relapse is common. To combat addiction, doctors are beginning to use other forms of stimulants such as dextroamphetamine, the dextrorotatory (right-handed) isomer of the amphetamine molecule, to break the addiction cycle in a method similar to the use of methadone in the treatment of heroin addicts. "
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: BobSacamano1 on September 07, 2012, 04:05 am
"The methyl group is responsible for the potentiation of effects as compared to the related compound amphetamine, rendering the substance more lipid-soluble, enhancing transport across the blood–brain barrier, and more stable against enzymatic degradation by monoamine oxidase (MAO)."

"Methamphetamine is a potent neurotoxin, shown to cause dopaminergic degeneration.[64][65] High doses of methamphetamine produce losses in several markers of brain dopamine and serotonin neurons."
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: le botbahn on September 07, 2012, 04:20 am
Bob... apples and oranges. Bananas. And zucchinis.
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Snoopish on September 07, 2012, 05:52 am
I have a hankering for grapes now. And cubes of watermelon. Mmmmm
Title: Re: Practical Meth Use--1st Attempt
Post by: Lawnmower on September 07, 2012, 06:00 am
Just went to the fridge and my grapes had gone mouldy  :-[

I won't argue with most of those comments! Meth IS highly addictive.

As far as neurotoxicity goes I'm quite skeptical. These studies tend to use huge doses, several times a day, and quite often the animal dies in a couple of weeks.

One paper quoted by Wikipedia used 5mg/kg, three times. I'm not sure how equivalent the dosing is in mice and humans but that equates to 1050mg for an average 70kg man. That is a hell of a dose - all but the heaviest users would never tolerate a dose that high. 40mg gets me very buzzed.

Heavy meth use will fuck you up beyond recognition, extremely quickly. It can do this like no other drug can. I would never try and tell anyone that it is safe.

I do believe that using meth once a month is healthier than using MDMA once a month.  8)