Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: junjo on September 22, 2013, 10:26 am

Title: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: junjo on September 22, 2013, 10:26 am
Just wondering why brown MDMA tends to be the go-to choice for many buyers here.
From my experience as a chemist (with a year of organic chemistry laboratory), brown = your synthesis is impure as fuck, and you were too lazy to clean up the contaminants with activated charcoal afterwards.
If something is brown, pink, or orange (colors I've seen frequently in OChem and in the MDMA/M1 listings here), it likely means that you have:

1) unreacted precursors (bad)
2) undesired reactions between the precursors and the MDMA (very, very bad)

MDMA HCl should be a white, unremarkable powder.
Consistency is irrelevant, it can be fine as powdered sugar or in giant rocks
It doesn't mean that your MDMA is uncut (MDMA has an equal chance of being uncut if it's white, brown, yellow, pink, purple, whatever), it just means that the synthesis got a bit screwed up somewhere along the line.

Also, don't waste your time with "moonrock" bullshit. It can be equally as pure (if not worse) than powder, since you can recrystallize anything and make "moonrocks" out of it.

Basically, I'd like an explanation from a more experienced buyer/dealer as to why people here are so attracted to brown MDMA, when white is probably the much safer and probably purer option.
What myths/urban legends are there surrounding this substance, leading people to make stupid judgment calls? (don't get me started on the 84% pure crap....)
Color is no reflection of whether the material is cut or not, but it is a sign that your manufacturer fucked up somewhere in their synthesis. Not good, IMO.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: wolf2wolf on September 22, 2013, 05:24 pm
I'm interested in this question too. Basically, people seem to be taking something that is an indicator of contaminants - a brown or tan color - and using it as a positive measure of quality. It's counter intuitive. The same thing is true of aroma. People seem to prefer something that smells like sassafras or anise to a pure product that shouldn't really smell like anything.

20+ years ago most of the MDMA I'd buy that wasn't pressed into a pill was a white odorless powder.  In the last 10 years or so, I started noticing more tan/brown product on the market. I attributed this to an increase in unskilled manufacturers involved in the trade, however, when I discovered SR, I observed that a lot of buyers and vendors used tan/brown/purple as a superlative when describing MDMA. I now think some chemists may actually skip the extra steps required to get a purer product because the dirtier stuff sells better - it also adds extra weight.

I'm not sure how to explain this. One guess is that there was a lot of bogus/cut shit that was sold as white MDMA powder in the past. Because brown, anise smelling byproducts are typical in most MDMA synthesis routes, these become indicative of something, that if not pure, actually had MDMA in it.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: junjo on September 22, 2013, 10:11 pm
I'm interested in this question too. Basically, people seem to be taking something that is an indicator of contaminants - a brown or tan color - and using it as a positive measure of quality. It's counter intuitive. The same thing is true of aroma. People seem to prefer something that smells like sassafras or anise to a pure product that shouldn't really smell like anything.

20+ years ago most of the MDMA I'd buy that wasn't pressed into a pill was a white odorless powder.  In the last 10 years or so, I started noticing more tan/brown product on the market. I attributed this to an increase in unskilled manufacturers involved in the trade, however, when I discovered SR, I observed that a lot of buyers and vendors used tan/brown/purple as a superlative when describing MDMA. I now think some chemists may actually skip the extra steps required to get a purer product because the dirtier stuff sells better - it also adds extra weight.

I'm not sure how to explain this. One guess is that there was a lot of bogus/cut shit that was sold as white MDMA powder in the past. Because brown, anise smelling byproducts are typical in most MDMA synthesis routes, these become indicative of something, that if not pure, actually had MDMA in it.

The more time I spend here on the SR, the more nonsensical mythology I seem to hear and learn about drugs, and yeah, no idea how it perpetuates.
I think your guess about the b.s. sold as white powder in the past would be the reason why.
But still, as I do with my local seller, you buy their white powder, perform the proper reagent tests, and you're good to go.
Brown just makes it seem like something funky happened during the reaction, and I'm not sure why it makes people think "gee, I sure want to ingest this drug".
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: 46andtwo on September 22, 2013, 10:16 pm
Pasting from a previous thread, (thank you b0lixtrader):

"The only method that uses Safrole is Merck. Both Shulgin methods use IsoSafrole.



Obviously there's a lot more to it than I am willing to explain here, but the best possible MDMA yields versus other salts comes from the Shulgin Method II.

"Brown Sand" is also known as the Shulgin Method I: (commonly synthesized in and sold out of Canada and Germany)

Refluxing Formic acid + N-methylformamide(NMF) and Piperonylmethylketone(PMK Oil) yields N-formyl-MDMA.
If then this is refluxed in concentrated hydrochloric acid and it is later made basic with sodium hydroxide, it yields crude MDMA.
The crude MDMA is finally extracted into diethyl ether, dissolved, and treated with hydrogen gas to produce a gelatinous brown precipitate of impure MDMA-hydrochloride.
The crude salt can then be dissolved in boiling methanol, and then added to chilled acetone to form a crystalline product.
Recrystallization yields fawn crystals(80%-82% MDMA) with a melting point of 147—148°C

"PMK White" is also known as the Shulgin Method II (Pretty much only comes from NL, and Belgium unless people are reselling):

Formamide + PMK refluxed at 190°C. The solution is made basic and extracted with diethyl ether.
The ethereal solution is then washed with dilute sulphuric acid, rinsed with water and finally dried over anhydrous sodium sulphate.
You would then reduce the diethyl ether to yield a clear yellow solution of N-formyl-MDA.
It is then added to diluted Lithium-Aluminium-Hydride(LAH) and further refluxed.
The excess LAH is decomposed by the addition of water and the resulting mixture should be filtered and the precipitate washed with diethyl ether.
The washings and the filtrate are then combined and extracted with dilute sulphuric acid.
The aqueous solution is then made alkaline with dilute sodium hydroxide and extracted with diethyl ether.
The solvent will evaporate to leave an amber oil of crude MDMA. (100% pure MDMA Freebase)
Base down in hydrochloric acid - Recrystallization yields crystals(84% MDMA) with a melting point of 149—150°C

Merck Method:

Involves the formation of MDPBP(from safrole) followed by reaction with methylamine. It produces White MDMA, but also produced MDPV analogues commonly known as "bath salts" ... Unless precautions and extra steps are taken, it is often that the crystalline product produced is riddled with contaminants and other active amphetamine salts."
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: junjo on September 23, 2013, 12:34 am
Pasting from a previous thread, (thank you b0lixtrader):

"The only method that uses Safrole is Merck. Both Shulgin methods use IsoSafrole.



Obviously there's a lot more to it than I am willing to explain here, but the best possible MDMA yields versus other salts comes from the Shulgin Method II.

"Brown Sand" is also known as the Shulgin Method I: (commonly synthesized in and sold out of Canada and Germany)

Refluxing Formic acid + N-methylformamide(NMF) and Piperonylmethylketone(PMK Oil) yields N-formyl-MDMA.
If then this is refluxed in concentrated hydrochloric acid and it is later made basic with sodium hydroxide, it yields crude MDMA.
The crude MDMA is finally extracted into diethyl ether, dissolved, and treated with hydrogen gas to produce a gelatinous brown precipitate of impure MDMA-hydrochloride.
The crude salt can then be dissolved in boiling methanol, and then added to chilled acetone to form a crystalline product.
Recrystallization yields fawn crystals(80%-82% MDMA) with a melting point of 147—148°C

"PMK White" is also known as the Shulgin Method II (Pretty much only comes from NL, and Belgium unless people are reselling):

Formamide + PMK refluxed at 190°C. The solution is made basic and extracted with diethyl ether.
The ethereal solution is then washed with dilute sulphuric acid, rinsed with water and finally dried over anhydrous sodium sulphate.
You would then reduce the diethyl ether to yield a clear yellow solution of N-formyl-MDA.
It is then added to diluted Lithium-Aluminium-Hydride(LAH) and further refluxed.
The excess LAH is decomposed by the addition of water and the resulting mixture should be filtered and the precipitate washed with diethyl ether.
The washings and the filtrate are then combined and extracted with dilute sulphuric acid.
The aqueous solution is then made alkaline with dilute sodium hydroxide and extracted with diethyl ether.
The solvent will evaporate to leave an amber oil of crude MDMA. (100% pure MDMA Freebase)
Base down in hydrochloric acid - Recrystallization yields crystals(84% MDMA) with a melting point of 149—150°C

Merck Method:

Involves the formation of MDPBP(from safrole) followed by reaction with methylamine. It produces White MDMA, but also produced MDPV analogues commonly known as "bath salts" ... Unless precautions and extra steps are taken, it is often that the crystalline product produced is riddled with contaminants and other active amphetamine salts."

The 84% purity thing is a myth FYI.
This is like the 5th time I've explained this here, but MDMA HCl is your desired product.
Since it's your desired product, it should be re-written as (Recrystallization yields fawn crystals (95%-98% MDMA HCl)

And yup, that pretty much confirms my suspicions. People with brown MDMA aren't recrystallizing it and are selling impure goop.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: TSX on September 23, 2013, 03:50 pm
This is my own subjective opinion now.
The brown stuff always looks like shit, my theory is that people think it's better because of the impurities giving them actual noticeable effects. That can not be good for your health, the MDMA alone is for sure not good for you, but this brown "contaminated" stuff seems to be much worse.

As I understood it, it's just not properly washed, or even not properly synthesized, or both.
I never had brown stuff, just very clean snow white stuff when crushed to powder, before it's almost transparent shards with 1/10th of them having a slight darker color. In my book that is what you want. At least it is what I want.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: jacklinks on September 23, 2013, 06:31 pm
My belief is this:

Although a pure white powder/crushed up crystals is the purest form it is also the easiest to cut with other substances. An M1 cut is ridiculously easy and only the most experienced users will be able to notice a difference.

A slightly off-white product (either tan or grayish) makes this a lot more difficult. As for the smell a light smell is indicative of the precursor. When someone smells sass it puts them a little at ease because they know it's mda/mdma


For me I have noticed very little difference in effects from a perfectly washed product with no odor and a slightly tan/grey product with a light smell.

I do agree that when a product is very off-color that is a huge turn off as it does imply sloppy and rushed chemistry
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: suffix on September 23, 2013, 06:36 pm
agree with OP 100% proper white mdma is in a different league to the brown crystal product. good dirty gear is fine, a nice if not sometimes wonky hit and good fun time with friends but..the mdma i remember from my youth was like being held in the hand of god. on an eigth of a gram ( how it was sold then ) the peak lasted for hours and you were so full of love and wonder you never wanted to come back ;)

we used to fly.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: TSX on September 23, 2013, 06:49 pm
[...] Although a pure white powder/crushed up crystals is the purest form it is also the easiest to cut with other substances. An M1 cut is ridiculously easy and only the most experienced users will be able to notice a difference. [...]

Hm, but you could test for M1 to make sure that none is in there, and then test for MDMA to be sure it's MDMA.
Note to self: Buy test kits.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: jacklinks on September 23, 2013, 06:56 pm
Even with a test kit it can test as MDMA, it depends on where you pull the sample from. I've seen product tested that I knew was over 50% M1 and it tested straight black.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: TSX on September 23, 2013, 07:02 pm
You take a gram of shards, crush them, and then test for M1. If something is in there it would go positive. What am I missing here? I'm not talking about testing 2 kilos but 2 grams or so.
To make it more clear you don't test for MDMA you test for M1, and then maybe for MDMA if that is negative.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: unknown79 on September 23, 2013, 07:34 pm
Feel like maybe I should go over the chemistry behind the brown vs greyish/purple vs clear debate.

Brown stuff tends to have leftover safrole, or partially split-open methylenedioxy ring systems so you get some methoxy-amphetamine impurities. These tend to make you speedy. In very basic terms, someone cooked it too hard in the early stages of synthesis from safrole, or alternatively did everything fine but neglected to do a wash before proceeding with the final steps.

Greyish color is usually from leftover MDP2P, and this is a big reason why you tend to see a lot of grey stuff leaving the Netherlands/Germany. They've been known to use pure MDP2P for synthesis rather than go from safrole. I'm pretty sure MDP2P is inactive when ingested, but it's not going to hurt you either.

In the end you can't use color to judge purity at all. Anyone who has done some organic chemistry knows that a .5% impurity can make the color wildly different. That's because relative to the wavelength of light our eyes detect even 1/1000000 of the molecules messing up the crystal structure can really bend or absorb light. Making it appear colored or cloudy.

That stuff about safrole being carcinogenic is complete bullshit. People still use it for rootbeer flavoring at home, or for smaller shops that make their own. The test claiming it caused cancer force-fed rats the equivalent of a human eating like a bathtub of the stuff a week. Even if someone gave you 300 mg of "MDMA" that was actually just crystalized safrole you wouldn't be in any danger. The FDA banned safrole in the late '60s because the hippies over at Berkely were making MDA and having too much fun.


*taken directly from here (clearnet)* http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/comments/1mw34q/crystal_or_tan_mdma_a_survey/ccda662
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: anothergirl on September 23, 2013, 07:52 pm
I bought brown (sand) because 1) everyone was eating brown crystals when I went to Ozora and I got the impression that was the way to go to avoid adulterants, and 2) of the 2 domestic vendors selling the low quantities I needed, the one with white powder had some worrying reviews about purity and the one with the brown sand was 5.0 and had at least one reviewer saying he had tested it.

I don't have enough experience to know if I'm accidentally taking M1, so I'll just have to hope it's legit.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: ImTylerDurden on September 24, 2013, 12:46 am
TBH, the white stuff I currently have does not really impress me. It is from a reputable, longstanding european vendor and I have to dose between 250 and 300 mg and Im really not even getting out of it what I did on 150 - 180 mg of cloudsurfer's grey batch before he went stealth. People on CanadianForger's reviews say his brown sugar is the tits. Why is this?

Also, what is the deal with smell? Cloudsurfer's grey batch had a rather pleasant, sweet smell to it that you could smell a few inches away.  Some previous amber stuff and my current white stuff smells very UNpleasant, but you have to get your nose right up on it to smell it. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Whats the deal with this?
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: jacklinks on September 24, 2013, 04:20 am
TBH, the white stuff I currently have does not really impress me. It is from a reputable, longstanding european vendor and I have to dose between 250 and 300 mg and Im really not even getting out of it what I did on 150 - 180 mg of cloudsurfer's grey batch before he went stealth. People on CanadianForger's reviews say his brown sugar is the tits. Why is this?

Also, what is the deal with smell? Cloudsurfer's grey batch had a rather pleasant, sweet smell to it that you could smell a few inches away.  Some previous amber stuff and my current white stuff smells very UNpleasant, but you have to get your nose right up on it to smell it. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Whats the deal with this?

Yeah ,the grayish-white stuff coming out of Germany has provided me with the best rolls I have experienced. CloudSurfer and now Interways.. I have yet to try the Interways but a couple of people who tested it have said it is very similar to CS's stuff which is my favorite of all time. Can't wait to try it myself.

Who's this vendor you speak of? 250-300 is quite high, sounds like it has a cut
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: TSX on September 24, 2013, 08:14 am
Yeah ,the grayish-white stuff coming out of Germany has provided me with the best rolls I have experienced. CloudSurfer and now Interways.. I have yet to try the Interways but a couple of people who tested it have said it is very similar to CS's stuff which is my favorite of all time. Can't wait to try it myself.

Thanks for the tip, hmm my plans are calculated as precise as only 5 EUR left after it, but maybe I'll switch some stuff around to get some brown product also. Direct comparison would be possible.

Just saw that both don't have active listings, it would be easy to find domestic brown product though. I'll post an update if I really decide to do a direct comparison.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: bukket on September 24, 2013, 09:32 am
I'm a oldschool raver, and my favorite MDMA is light brown/tan with a strong licorice/rootbeery smell..
to me nothing packs the same punch as that old sassy MDMA.

Also; Saint Nic had some of the strongest stuff washed by the MDMA avengers and it 96% came back.
His product was as stated, light brown with a licorice smell but his batch smelt really sweet compared to others. almost like a vanilla licorice or something.


Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: ImTylerDurden on September 25, 2013, 08:55 am
TBH, the white stuff I currently have does not really impress me. It is from a reputable, longstanding european vendor and I have to dose between 250 and 300 mg and Im really not even getting out of it what I did on 150 - 180 mg of cloudsurfer's grey batch before he went stealth. People on CanadianForger's reviews say his brown sugar is the tits. Why is this?

Also, what is the deal with smell? Cloudsurfer's grey batch had a rather pleasant, sweet smell to it that you could smell a few inches away.  Some previous amber stuff and my current white stuff smells very UNpleasant, but you have to get your nose right up on it to smell it. Does anyone know what I am talking about? Whats the deal with this?

Yeah ,the grayish-white stuff coming out of Germany has provided me with the best rolls I have experienced. CloudSurfer and now Interways.. I have yet to try the Interways but a couple of people who tested it have said it is very similar to CS's stuff which is my favorite of all time. Can't wait to try it myself.

Who's this vendor you speak of? 250-300 is quite high, sounds like it has a cut

Mister M100. But literally every review says its the bomb. It's my first order from him. Reagents all tested out fine but I really wasn't impressed. Not trying to knock him or anything, but I felt it was sub par. Im about to take a month off before I give it another go. My brain might just need break. But on the other hand, my friend that has been testing everything with me was also not very impressed by it either. Sold a few rolls to some people as well. The new timer was impressed, but 200mg started to ware off after 2-3 hours for him. The regulars also said it wasn't the best they had done, but they were still happy with it.  Had two girls try it. One had 200mg cap and felt like shit. I prob gave her too much -_-. Another girl took half of a 200mg cap and said she wasnt a fan of it. I capped them all up at 200 instead of 150 in fear of customers being pissed off about a weak roll for $25.

Just my .02btc. I Will prob buy from Mister again, but I will continue to try out new vendors before I return to him.
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: MandyEmay on September 25, 2013, 07:29 pm
Subscribing
Title: Re: Why is brown MDMA so popular on the SR? Seems sketchy and unsafe.
Post by: junjo on September 25, 2013, 08:34 pm
Lmao, as usual, it looks like I ticked off another vendor, as indicated by the drop in karma associated with the popularity of this post.

Hey buddy, I don't care about your internet downvotes.

However, if you wanna keep your customers safe and stop selling them nasty, tainted shit, here's some advice.

-Purchase some 100% acetone and activated carbon (both extremely common products)

-Take your impure bulk MDMA, dissolve it in warm acetone, and stir/shake it up for a while

-Now, add a small volume of the activated carbon, only a fraction of the mass of the MDMA, and stir it into the acetone solution, and filter out the carbon, leaving a grayish-clear acetone solution behind.

-Leave the acetone out on a glass dish to evaporate, and you will have beautiful off-white MDMA crystals, rather than disgusting brown goo.

There ya go. It's not the karma loss that pisses me off, but the fact that you'd rather do that to defend your shitty product than have an intelligent discussion with me to fix what you're doing wrong, shows a major lack of integrity on your part. I hope you or any other MDMA vendors selling impure goo read this, and start making some quality product, rather than taking advantage of your customers.