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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: unkn0wn_ on October 28, 2012, 08:31 pm

Title: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: unkn0wn_ on October 28, 2012, 08:31 pm
I tried ketamine for the first time about a week ago and I've noticed a significant improvement in my moods during the 1-2 days after I did it.

I've been on an SSRI before called Cipralex that numbed me out a bit but I didn't feel much better.

I feel like ketamine recharged my brain and I'm back to neutral levels now. Got me out of a slump. I still need to test this for more than a week to make this more than anecdotal.

I've read wikipedia and it goes into detail that K has shown to be effective at treating depression: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine#Antidepressant_use

Has anyone else experienced this?
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: gtgeorgz on October 28, 2012, 11:48 pm
What kind of ROA did you use and what dose?
I have to agree with you, after a 30mg line once in a blue moon I do feel a lot happier for the rest of the day and a slightly noticeable after glow a few days after, very interesting though for sure.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: unkn0wn_ on October 29, 2012, 12:18 am
Intranassaly and usually a series of 10mg lines over a few hours. Never k-holed.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: MetaD13 on October 29, 2012, 12:54 am
I've heard of many cases where Ketamine has helped people deal with depression.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Ben on October 29, 2012, 02:47 am
The problem with it is that evidence is extremely thin, to the point of anecdotal.
iji
Perhaps in some people ketamine can induce a biochemical change that improves quality of life, while in most others it will not result in any lasting benefit, and potentially in addiction and a downward spiral from there.

Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: gtgeorgz on October 29, 2012, 02:53 am
The problem with it is that evidence is extremely thin, to the point of anecdotal.
iji
Perhaps in some people ketamine can induce a biochemical change that improves quality of life, while in most others it will not result in any lasting benefit, and potentially in addiction and a downward spiral from there.



Good point, this is why I only use Ketamine every 10 days or so, no less (around 30/40mg per setting). It has made me noticeably 'happier' since I've been using it, even though I wasn't depressed in the first place. There haven't been any tolerance changes for me ether. But the potential for addiction is there and the possible effects from heavy usage are grim to say the least. I wouldn't recommend this to anyone who has an addictive personality.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: gestaltassault2 on October 29, 2012, 03:10 am
i've noticed that i start getting a bit egocentric after i do K...
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: flicky42 on October 29, 2012, 05:16 am
It is important to note that all research of K being an antidepressant has been under mild to low doses. Don't think that the more you take the more anti-depressant like properties you will have, doesn't work like that.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: gtgeorgz on October 29, 2012, 01:46 pm
i've noticed that i start getting a bit egocentric after i do K...

What kind of dosage do you take? Into the KHole?
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: FinalFrontier on October 29, 2012, 08:50 pm
Ketamine can be an extremely good antidepressant when NOT TAKEN RECREATIONALLY.

You need to monitor your dose and take very small bumps, not often at all.

(CLEARNET) hxxp://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/372731-Jamshyd-s-Medicinal-Ketamine-Regimen!-(V-1-5-UPDATED-11-22-10)
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Crooked on October 29, 2012, 08:57 pm
Like others have said, it's a great anti depressant in occasional, small doses. To use it routinely would do more damage than good. IMO, dissociatives will make you dumber if used frequently, and ketamine is known to cause kidney+bladder problems.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: _dzzzlzzzd_ on October 29, 2012, 09:32 pm
Quote
n their research, Duman and others show that in a series of steps ketamine triggers release of neurotransmitter glutamate, which in turn stimulates growth of synapses. Research at Yale has shown that damage of these synaptic connections caused by chronic stress is rapidly reversed by a single dose of ketamine.

(CLEARNET) http://http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/10/121004141747.htm
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: unkn0wn_ on October 29, 2012, 09:35 pm
Thanks for the link FinalFrontier

It seems that 12mg is the ideal dosage:

Quote
Further experimentation revealed to me that the more precise the dosing, the better - and that an ideal dose is 12mg

I haven't found K to be particularly addictive at low doses.

Going to try controlled medicinal approach over the next month when the next (small) batch arrives.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Ben on October 30, 2012, 01:51 am
I suppose the optimal dose will depend on the individual, as it does with virtually all substances.

Ketamine is a substance that has been used in many situations however. As an analgesic in the past (and war settings), as a recreational drug, but also as an experimental drug to (among other things) help alleviate dependence on other substances.

For the latter is clear that the doses need to be relatively small, nothing in the order of analgesic dosages used in field medicine (k-hole if you like). Using these smaller doses also reduces that risk of dependence.

As ketamine has outlived its patent by decades by now, i assume it will not receive any further attention in medical research towarsd anti-depressant or cessation applications. This by no means indicates in cannot be effective, but its not a substance any pharma company would be interested in researching further since there is no financial justification to do so.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: flicky42 on October 30, 2012, 09:54 pm
I suppose the optimal dose will depend on the individual, as it does with virtually all substances.

Ketamine is a substance that has been used in many situations however. As an analgesic in the past (and war settings), as a recreational drug, but also as an experimental drug to (among other things) help alleviate dependence on other substances.

For the latter is clear that the doses need to be relatively small, nothing in the order of analgesic dosages used in field medicine (k-hole if you like). Using these smaller doses also reduces that risk of dependence.

As ketamine has outlived its patent by decades by now, i assume it will not receive any further attention in medical research towarsd anti-depressant or cessation applications. This by no means indicates in cannot be effective, but its not a substance any pharma company would be interested in researching further since there is no financial justification to do so.

Not quite, its research is just beginning in the antidepressant field with some researchers calling it "the biggest breakthrough we've had in decades."

Links all clearnet!!!!


http://www.doctortipster.com/11631-ketamine-vanquishes-depression-within-minutes.html
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/8122957
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9554431
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10686270
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16894061
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20724638
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21292242



http://news.yale.edu/2012/10/04/yale-scientists-explain-how-ketamine-vanquishes-depression-within-hours   <---- this one (or the first one) has a nice video talk.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Ben on October 31, 2012, 01:29 am
Interesting stuff!

I suppose the downside is that we will never see the benefits of it (legally) even if it proves out to be effective and safe.

There is just nothing to gain for pharma companies to market ketamine - it's out of patent, so anyone can put it on the market as a generic at minimal cost, especially if treatment requires very few doses.

This is a very unfortunate fact of the pharma industry these days. With the costs of running clinical trials and approval running into the order of 5 billion dollars for a new medication (or an old one for an entirely different purpose), there is zero chance that any of them will pursue ketamine as a treatment for any ailment.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: unkn0wn_ on October 31, 2012, 06:10 pm
Big pharma only does late-stage clinical trials for drug safety.

Almost all research on efficacy is done by small medical research organizations and universities (then gets sold to pharma).

So there is still a good incentive for researchers to discover a great treatment for depression. Reputation for writing a good paper/conducting a well cited study is important to researchers.

The end goal is not always a sale to big pharma.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Ben on November 01, 2012, 02:24 am
That depends on how you look at these findings.

Lets consider you go to your GP with depression. The only way you would get ketamine prescribed for that if there was big pharma research backing its efficacy. Big pharma has nothing to gain in proving ketamine effective though, as it would enter the market as profitless generic by now.

This is just one indication of a larger problem though. The system is such that only a new, patentable, compound is profitable to develop for pharma companies, even if something just as effective is already available. Even if research proved that eating grass from your lawn cured aids, cancer and old age, that method if treatment would never reach mainstream medicine since there would be no profit in researching it further.

All of this is not a secret though, its just how the market operates. I've been in contact with pharma companies during research and they really have zero interest in compounds that they cannot patent. As i am also a shareholder in such companies, i completely understand their reasoning behind it.

The end result is, however, that previously documented compounds will not be available for treatment of different conditions, even if they are very effective.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: painbow on November 01, 2012, 05:31 am
The problem with it is that evidence is extremely thin, to the point of anecdotal.

Actually, there are many clinical data that indicated that ketamine is definitely effective for treatment resistant depression.

However, clinical community has not figured out the correct dosing regimen yet.  They've also started investigaing novel compounds based on the actions of ketamine for new potential anti-depressants.

Ketamine works well for depression.  I personally wouldnt recommend it more than once or twice a week.

I think shrooms may be more effect for depression.  Shrooms will help you look at your life from a different disconnect perspective, it will slowly change you for the better if you have the mental capacity to use shrooms as a tool.
Title: Re: Ketamine a really good anti-depressant?
Post by: Ben on November 03, 2012, 02:00 am
Using shrooms or other hallucinogens to combat depression remains controversial at best.

I don't doubt that some people gained useful insight that helped their recovery, but recommending it as a tool of choice is taking it way too far.

I do encourage research into better compounds to treat problems like depression an anxiety though. In general medicine the medication of choice has become SSRI, but from a patient perspective these are not very attractive substances considering their side effects, and in many cases they prove ineffective too. 

Personally i think that ssri's are only useful on a select group of patients, but are given as a default treatment to far too many people at the moment. Since all the major ssri's are passing the end of their patent protection at the moment, this should be a time to re-evaluate their effects. There no longer is an economic reason to state that xanax is not as effective as prozac for treating anxiety, since both are now widely available as generics.