Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: Friendlyface on June 22, 2013, 06:11 pm
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This is a direct quote from Bitcointalk.org. Might be a new option for some people on here to consider if it ever gets some momentum:
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=237164.0
Bitcoin-Brokers is offering the Bitcoin community the ability to sell their bitcoins at current MtGox rates and receive cash deposits into their own personal bank accounts.
Starting immediately if you bank at any of the following banks, you can sell your bitcoins for 0% fees and receive 100% of the proceeds from the sale of your bitcoins as a cash deposit into your personal bank account.
United States
-Bank of America
-Capital One
-Citigroup
-JPMorgan Chase
-PNC Financial
-SunTrust
-TD Bank
-US Bancorp
-Wells Fargo
-If your bank is not listed here, just let us know and we will immediately add it for you.
Canada
-Royal Bank
-CIBC
-Bank of Montreal
-Scotiabank
-TD Canada Trust
-If your bank is not listed here, just let us know and we will immediately add it for you.
This exciting new service will allow sellers of bitcoins to list their bitcoins for sale on our website and have the buyers make cash deposits into their personal bank account.
Prior to the buyer receiving the bitcoins, the seller will:
-be able to verify via online banking that there has been a cash deposit made into their account for the correct amount.
-receive a scanned copy of the actual deposit slip used during the deposit transaction.
-receive a scanned copy of the business card of the bank employee who accepted the deposit who can be contacted to verify the deposit.
This new service is initially only offered to residents in the USA and Canada. (UK and Australia will open soon.)
There are no maximum sized orders, and sellers can test the service with orders as small as $10.
www.Bitcoin-Brokers.org
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This exciting new service will allow sellers of bitcoins to list their bitcoins for sale on our website and have the buyers make cash deposits into their personal bank account.
This exciting new way to get listed and nailed...
Leaving behind the sarcasm, you would want to hide the procedence of your coins, brothers and sisters, and I do mean mixing like hell. Even so, regular large amounts that have their destination in your little ol' bank account is sure to raise more than one banker's eyebrows, knowhatamean?
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This exciting new service will allow sellers of bitcoins to list their bitcoins for sale on our website and have the buyers make cash deposits into their personal bank account.
This exciting new way to get listed and nailed...
Leaving behind the sarcasm, you would want to hide the procedence of your coins, brothers and sisters, and I do mean mixing like hell. Even so, regular large amounts that have their destination in your little ol' bank account is sure to raise more than one banker's eyebrows, knowhatamean?
I appreciate your comment about mixing like hell, but if you think about it, you never know who your bitcoins are being sold to, and they essentially get mixed because they are transferred into Bitcoin-Brokers wallet before they are transferred to the buyer. This is a free service for the sellers of the bitcoins (always nice saving money).
Maybe I just have more faith in bitcoins already being completely anonymous. I know there are lots of people that simply convert their BTC right back to their bank accounts by using services like MtGox and not a single person that I am aware of has ever gotten into trouble from that. (I am not endorsing going through MtGox, but everybody here knows that people do it).
I know that from a buyer's standpoint it would be much more convenient to be able to buy the bitcoins from a bank as compared to going to CVS or Walmart. At least the people at the banks are used to taking deposits every day. Compare that to a bewildered looking cashier at 7-11 who points sheepishly at a magical red phone which connects you to a call center in India to line up the transaction.
On top of that the fees are 2% for buyers which is less than half the fees the BitInstant charges.
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So not to sound... lets say completely negative but..
1) the banks and governments have been fighting bitcoins especially over the last few months. Why all of a sudden would they allow this? Yes I get that for a time you'll slip through the gap, however just like they messed with mt.gox and the reporting and all that they are going to eventually mess with this. Be pretty crappy if you had a lot of funds in there and suddenly things were held (can you say mt.gox and their 2 week hiatus from withdrawls)
2) so now you have taxable income, in your bank account. so now you have to report it, pay tax on it, and explain it. can you imagine if you get audited? what happens if LE takes an interest in you for whatever reason. What if they look at your bank account. Yeah it's not hard evidence but it's not gonna help you.
3) if you read the second post on that site there seems to be some questions about the security of the site, as well as if it's a real company or... just something made up.
4) we collect the seller's name account etcetc etc it also seems prone to possible scam.
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shit I'll also add that further down the page people are discussing it as civil disobedience, active resistance etcetc which can't be a good sign for longevity. It's essentially localbitcoins with an emphasis on transfering to someones bank account.
Lets think about that instead of meeting someone at a coffee shop, and taking cash (an anonymous medium) for bitcoins (another anonymous medium) and walking away. you are now giving someone else your bank account info. Seriously... I would rather take my chances being ID by local LE after they tag my plates and have to run checks instead of letting one guy at a computer get multiple account numbers and then just asking the banks to hand over some info. We all know the banks will fully comply and there are no secrecy laws here.
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shit I'll also add that further down the page people are discussing it as civil disobedience, active resistance etcetc which can't be a good sign for longevity. It's essentially localbitcoins with an emphasis on transfering to someones bank account.
Lets think about that instead of meeting someone at a coffee shop, and taking cash (an anonymous medium) for bitcoins (another anonymous medium) and walking away. you are now giving someone else your bank account info. Seriously... I would rather take my chances being ID by local LE after they tag my plates and have to run checks instead of letting one guy at a computer get multiple account numbers and then just asking the banks to hand over some info. We all know the banks will fully comply and there are no secrecy laws here.
I completely see where you are coming from, and I respect your opinion. I completely understand the desire to be anonymous with the purchasing of bitcoins, but need I remind you that there is nothing illegal about buying or selling bitcoins.
As a purchaser who would you rather meet to hand off your cash to? A friendly cashier at a bank, or some dude at some bar who tells you he has bitcoins (but be sure to meet him with the cash). Maybe you are a two hundred pound man who carries himself well, but there are members of society who find the entire notion of meeting a complete stranger less than appealing.
Now if you are talking about things from the seller's side of the equation, then of course this may not be the route that you want to go...yet there are many buyers on here who have faith in bitcoin's built-in anonymity, that they feel comfortable buying it at a teller at a Bank of America as an example. Afterall its a cash deposit in an environment which is just like BitiNstant...only half of the cost. (It costs the buyer 2% instead of Bitinstant's 4%)
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So not to sound... lets say completely negative but..
1) the banks and governments have been fighting bitcoins especially over the last few months. Why all of a sudden would they allow this? Yes I get that for a time you'll slip through the gap, however just like they messed with mt.gox and the reporting and all that they are going to eventually mess with this. Be pretty crappy if you had a lot of funds in there and suddenly things were held (can you say mt.gox and their 2 week hiatus from withdrawls)
2) so now you have taxable income, in your bank account. so now you have to report it, pay tax on it, and explain it. can you imagine if you get audited? what happens if LE takes an interest in you for whatever reason. What if they look at your bank account. Yeah it's not hard evidence but it's not gonna help you.
3) if you read the second post on that site there seems to be some questions about the security of the site, as well as if it's a real company or... just something made up.
4) we collect the seller's name account etcetc etc it also seems prone to possible scam.
http://www.coindesk.com/fincen-boss-lays-out-bitcoin-rules/
The boss of US regulator FinCEN has outlined what Bitcoin exchanges need to do to keep the feds happy and stay out of prison.
Jennifer Shasky Calvery, director of the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network, told the American Banker that the US had no ideological beef with alternative currencies, but expects them to follow existing anti-money laundering rules.
Calvery said: “Digital currencies are just a financial service and those who deal in them are a financial institution. Any financial institution and any financial service could potentially pose an AML[anti-money laundering] threat.”
She said action against Liberty Reserve was simply one criminal case against one suspected law breaker and had no bearing on the industry as a whole.
Asked if FinCEN considered putting its recent guidance out for comment Calvery said they did not because it is just an interpretation of existing rules.
She said she welcomed innovation in financial services but those involved needed to act with transparency and integrity.
Calvery said: “I think innovation in financial services industry holds out great promise on so many levels for commerce and for social reasons like providing services to the unbanked. But like any financial services, it comes with an obligation and those obligations to protect the U.S. financial system from money laundering need to be taken seriously.”
Apparently without irony Calvery said: “I actually heard the CEO of a bank say recently that there is a reason that financial institutions have to obtain licenses and to register. And that’s because it is a great bestowal of trust to the bankers, to the financial service providers, to be able to be part of the U.S. financial system, to be able to be part of the global financial system. And that trust and that privilege come with obligations.”
Calvery joined FinCEN last September from the Department of Justice.
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I'm not against anyone trying this, merely out lining some of the POSSIBLE pit falls as I see them, and I'm by no means an authority on any of the techno side.
As for them being anonymous. Many people have stated that you can follow a bitcoin as it moves. you may not know who it's moving from or who it's moving too... but with this method, the person who is giving up their bank info is having a connection to that coin. If anyone wanted to really dig.
As for it not being illegal to buy and sell bitcoins, you're right. 100%. but now you have to justify (especially for vendors) how you are buying or have ownership of numerous bitcoins. This isn't a one off deal. That vendor looking to cash out is going to keep coming back. They are going to be looked at because they have more and more and more bitcoins to sell. I mean lets be real here, the winklevoss twins aren't going to use this method to sell their bitcoins. So what type of people does that leave that might have large sums that are constantly selling. SR vendors, old school miners/investors, and random business that accept them as payment.
All I'm saying is there seems to be some pitfalls. If you were going to do this system screw giving that guy your 2% just straight up craigslist and exchange your bank info.
As he says he never touches the money. Which to me means he doesn't have escrow. So again.. screw that guys 2%. Anyone could go to a forum and start posting their bank info wait for money to roll in and then send out coins. No guarantees of any of it working out well.
I'll leave it with this, I'm highly skeptical. I'll be happy if it works out, but still skeptical.
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Maybe I just have more faith in bitcoins already being completely anonymous. I know there are lots of people that simply convert their BTC right back to their bank accounts by using services like MtGox and not a single person that I am aware of has ever gotten into trouble from that. (I am not endorsing going through MtGox, but everybody here knows that people do it).
Bitcoins are not completely anonymous, that's a popular misconception with the uninitiated SR users. Bitcoins can be fully traced throughout it's transaction. The only thing that is anonymous is your activity while on SR and even that can be intercepted at the exit site. I think your advice is horrible and it's a sure way for someone to get fucked in the ass royally and not in the good way ???
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Maybe I just have more faith in bitcoins already being completely anonymous. I know there are lots of people that simply convert their BTC right back to their bank accounts by using services like MtGox and not a single person that I am aware of has ever gotten into trouble from that. (I am not endorsing going through MtGox, but everybody here knows that people do it).
Bitcoins are not completely anonymous, that's a popular misconception with the uninitiated SR users. Bitcoins can be fully traced throughout it's transaction. The only thing that is anonymous is your activity while on SR and even that can be intercepted at the exit site. I think your advice is horrible and it's a sure way for someone to get fucked in the ass royally and not in the good way ???
With all due respect, it is your advice which is incorrect. For starters I would not be using the collective wisdom of the SR community as a benchmark for "being in the know" with respect to what the attributes of bitcoin may or may not be.
I most certainly do NOT get my knowledge of bitcoins from anybody on this website because 99% of the people on this website think they understand bitcoins when in fact they don't.
This is website that talks about the Silk Road, and bitcoins just happens to be part of the bigger picture. I prefer to get my information about bitcoins from actual bitcoin focused websites.
If I was ever going to take the advice from anybody on a forum about bitcoins..it would be from a trusted member over at Bitcointalk.org, not from you.
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that's a popular misconception with the uninitiated SR users.
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LOL.....You and I registered here one day apart from each other, and I was here first.
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Traffic to hidden services is end to end encrypted. I highly doubt the creators of Tor monitor traffic, and even if they tried to there would be no way for them to monitor much of it.
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that's a popular misconception with the uninitiated SR users.
LOL.....You and I registered here one day apart from each other, and I was here first.
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Uninitiated in this context means a lack of knowledge. Time spent somewhere doesn't mean anything if you can't grasp the basic concepts of how to keep yourself as secure as possible and things that will just expose you to uneccessary risk and using major banks IMHO is just asking to be investigated but ppl will do what they want anyways. I won't be using that method thank you very much.
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Traffic to hidden services is end to end encrypted. I highly doubt the creators of Tor monitor traffic, and even if they tried to there would be no way for them to monitor much of it.
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that's a popular misconception with the uninitiated SR users.
LOL.....You and I registered here one day apart from each other, and I was here first.
Uninitiated in this context means a lack of knowledge. Time spent somewhere doesn't mean anything if you can't grasp the basic concepts of how to keep yourself as secure as possible and things that will just expose you to uneccessary risk and using major banks IMHO is just asking to be investigated but ppl will do what they want anyways. I won't be using that method thank you very much.
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It may not work for you if you are a vendor who fears that the anonymity that bitcoin in itself offers isn't enough to sell and receive payments into your bank account. Yet the majority of people on here are not vendors, they are buyers and are simply looking for different ways of buying bitcoins. Buying bitcoins with this method is anonymous because it is a cash deposit into the account of a bitcoin seller.
You are not giving any more information going this route than what happens when you buy your bitcoins through BitInstant. In fact I would argue that this method probably offers more security to the purchaser of bitcoins than going the route of buying them with Bitinstant.
With BitInstant, you have to walk into a building and phone a MoneyGram agent who then tries to tell a confused cashier who is used to selling lottery tickets, slurpees and cigarettes that they need to collect a payment for Zip Zap. There are more than a few horror stories peope have shared going this route.
With this other route, you walk into a bank. No red phone call to a person who tries to patch together a transaction. Just walk up to the teller, and deposit cash into the account, and the transaction has landed in the right account of the bitcoin seller. This route doesn't place the bitcoin buyer in any more intrusive of a position than the Bitinstant route, and if the business ever takes off...its cheaper as well at 2%.
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I still think there are numerous POSSIBLE pitfalls, and the 2% is not a selling point. Cheap fees for the possible negatives that could come along with this doesn't real mean much. I like the idea of cheaper fees but to be honest IF there was a 100% reputable business that tried it's best to service me in an anonymous manner with cash and carry type business, I would pay more. Anonymity isn't a sometimes maybe thing, and once it's gone, the chances of getting it back are pretty slim.
There is nothing illegal at the moment. People being connected to other people though. I mean even if you were just trying to purchase a few bitcoins for your own uses. Without escrow, whats to stop the seller of the coins from just taking the money (thats deposited into his account) and ditching you?
I don't know, as I said I'm not technically inclined, and I do really hope something like this works. I just see the reporting of funds at a bank, the lack of anonymity, the potential for scamming, all of it as to big of risk to save what ?? 2% 8% ?
Lets talk real world for a second. Not to put a damper on your thoughts here but if you want to launder money it costs. and 10% is a very reasonable cost. Yeah I can see people here nickel and diming about a 10% fee. but thats 10 bucks at current prices. If 10 bucks is gonna break your bank and you want to risk freedom/safety for it then by all means.
Like I said I'm not trying to be horribly negative and I applaud you finding someone who's at least trying to do something despite all the harsh regulations and what not. But I really do see this as a whole bunch of fail waiting to happen. just my opinion.. whatever thats worth.
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use a bank account with false infos.
problem solved :).
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use a bank account with false infos.
problem solved :).
Have YOU ever opened a bank account using fake ID? If so, you're a better man than I, that's fer sure. You need steel balls to do something like that, man.
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I smell honey..
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use a bank account with false infos.
problem solved :).
Have YOU ever opened a bank account using fake ID? If so, you're a better man than I, that's fer sure. You need steel balls to do something like that, man.
I think he was eluding to using fake info being the depositor, as compared to using false info opening an account. Most banks will let you walk in and make cash deposits into personal accounts of others without ever even asking for ID. Even if they did ask for ID, just say you don't have any, and use whatever info you want. The bank is not going to stop somebody from depositing a smallish deposit (below a grand) into an account. I used to walk into a major bank on the 1st of every month and drop $2,000 cash into my landlord's bank account. The bank never asked me for ID. They would ask if I held an account there, which I didn't. Teller would always say "okay...so which account do you want the $2,000 deposited into?"
Do not go and try to use false info opening an account...that's crazy.
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It may not work for you if you are a vendor who fears that the anonymity that bitcoin in itself offers isn't enough to sell and receive payments into your bank account. Yet the majority of people on here are not vendors, they are buyers and are simply looking for different ways of buying bitcoins. Buying bitcoins with this method is anonymous because it is a cash deposit into the account of a bitcoin seller.
You are not giving any more information going this route than what happens when you buy your bitcoins through BitInstant. In fact I would argue that this method probably offers more security to the purchaser of bitcoins than going the route of buying them with Bitinstant.
With BitInstant, you have to walk into a building and phone a MoneyGram agent who then tries to tell a confused cashier who is used to selling lottery tickets, slurpees and cigarettes that they need to collect a payment for Zip Zap. There are more than a few horror stories peope have shared going this route.
With this other route, you walk into a bank. No red phone call to a person who tries to patch together a transaction. Just walk up to the teller, and deposit cash into the account, and the transaction has landed in the right account of the bitcoin seller. This route doesn't place the bitcoin buyer in any more intrusive of a position than the Bitinstant route, and if the business ever takes off...its cheaper as well at 2%.
Are you fucking high or just stupid? Using your bank account is more anonymous then me walking into a random walmart, CVS, or any other numerous places that take Zip Zap payments and using another persons credentials to make the payment? Are you for real dude? Compared to walking into my local bank and them forever having a transaction that I made a cash deposit to purchase Bitcoins. The topic is not whether buying Bitcoins is illegal or if your a buyer or vendor it's an irrelevant point. The point is obviously if your here on this forum and you also buy Bitcoins there's a GOOD chance your doing something illegal with those Bitcoins so it just makes SENSE to me that you would want to be as subtle about is as possible and something about going to your local bank just doesn't strike me as subtle. Nevermind the fact all Banks have to and will co-operate with LE, FBI and Feds to turn over records. How knows they might even have a backdoor on all the banks systems that keeps a log of that shit.
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It may not work for you if you are a vendor who fears that the anonymity that bitcoin in itself offers isn't enough to sell and receive payments into your bank account. Yet the majority of people on here are not vendors, they are buyers and are simply looking for different ways of buying bitcoins. Buying bitcoins with this method is anonymous because it is a cash deposit into the account of a bitcoin seller.
You are not giving any more information going this route than what happens when you buy your bitcoins through BitInstant. In fact I would argue that this method probably offers more security to the purchaser of bitcoins than going the route of buying them with Bitinstant.
With BitInstant, you have to walk into a building and phone a MoneyGram agent who then tries to tell a confused cashier who is used to selling lottery tickets, slurpees and cigarettes that they need to collect a payment for Zip Zap. There are more than a few horror stories peope have shared going this route.
With this other route, you walk into a bank. No red phone call to a person who tries to patch together a transaction. Just walk up to the teller, and deposit cash into the account, and the transaction has landed in the right account of the bitcoin seller. This route doesn't place the bitcoin buyer in any more intrusive of a position than the Bitinstant route, and if the business ever takes off...its cheaper as well at 2%.
Are you fucking high or just stupid? Using your bank account is more anonymous then me walking into a random walmart, CVS, or any other numerous places that take Zip Zap payments and using another persons credentials to make the payment? Are you for real dude? Compared to walking into my local bank and them forever having a transaction that I made a cash deposit to purchase Bitcoins. The topic is not whether buying Bitcoins is illegal or if your a buyer or vendor it's an irrelevant point. The point is obviously if your here on this forum and you also buy Bitcoins there's a GOOD chance your doing something illegal with those Bitcoins so it just makes SENSE to me that you would want to be as subtle about is as possible and something about going to your local bank just doesn't strike me as subtle. Nevermind the fact all Banks have to and will co-operate with LE, FBI and Feds to turn over records. How knows they might even have a backdoor on all the banks systems that keeps a log of that shit.
Calm....breath....1234567890098765321 Listen to me carefully. You are NOT using your bank account. Got it, or do you need me to draw you a picture.
You are depositing money into the bank account of a random bitcoin seller who has already placed their bitcoins essentially in escrow at Bitcoin-Brokers.
Got it...not YOUR bank account...somebody elses. Walk in deposit cash walk out...no ID got it?
With respect to your comment amount me doing something illegal or I wouldn't be here. That is your opinion. the point remains (even though you cant get it through your one track ego based reasoning) the vast majority of bitcoins which are bought and sold and used on a daily basis are NOT for things that are illegal.
SR transactions per day about $200,000
Just the exchanges alone such as MtGox about $15,000,000
Going on and on with your nonsense about FBI and LE...give me a break and research a little more about the currency that you are using. I think you need to put down the bong...you are way to paranoid.
There is a reason why the SR exists. Because it works. It works in no small part because of the instrinsic characteristics which are naturally inherent in the bitcoins themselves. You fail to see that though. Its the only currency offered on this site...there is a reason for that.
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Your not getting it. What happens in a 6 months or a year from now if Bit Brokers is successful and gets big? You think LE aren't going to be watching. Think they can't walk in there and ask for all the info on there servers? The site wasn't HTTPS secured but I know I see that during the checkout it is. However as a buyer you need to put in all your credentials but according to the admin at Bitcoin Brokers you can put fake info and they actually plan to remove that part of the checkout soon. I still don't like the idea but that's just me...it might be good for some ppl.
I'm looking at this from more of a Vendors perspective or even a Bitcoin miner. LE go after Bitcoin miners that aren't doing anything illegal because there natural assumption is that they are. I'm basing my whole argument that the Government hates any other currency to be used in their country other than USD. Why cause they can control and manipulate the USD unlike Bitcoins. Overall I just think it's asking for trouble for the person that made that site, to the buyers and sellers.
Here's a quote from that thread on Bitcoin-talk by one of the peeps from Bit-Brokers:
Feel free to input any info you want there. I am not going to ask that you verify any of that personal info (on the next round of editing I am going to remove that part of the sign up form because frankly I do not need nor want any of that info).
I do not need to be registered by FINCEN because I am not a money transmitter. I do not touch the money from the buyer. The buyer is directed to deposit cash directly into the seller's bank account.
FC4B.com went down because he was running a bitcoin exchange business using his own bank account. Every single transaction on the buy side and the sell side ran through his bank account. My business on the other hand operates without a bank account, so there is nothing of mine to be shut down. The only way that Bitcoin-Brokers is paid is through the collection of a 2% fee which is collected in the form of bitcoin. This fee is paid by the buyer.The service is entirely free for sellers.
Come test it out with a small order and you can see for yourself how easy it is to convert your bitcoins to cash deposits into your bank account without incurring any fees."
That would not hold up in a court of law. That person needs to go read the Patriot Act and see how the US Government defines the term Money Transmitter. They defined it as loosely was as possibly in order if the need ever came they could go after anyone.
Also from wiki:
Clearnet: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_transmitter
FINCEN has also ruled that Informal Value Transfer Systems (IVTS) are considered money transmitters for the purpose of registration and licencing.[11] FINCEN defines an ITVS as "any system, mechanism, or network of people that receives money for the purpose of making the funds or an equivalent value payable to a third party in another geographic location, whether or not in the same form". These are known as Hawala in the Middle East, Afghanistan and Pakistan, as "hundi" in India and '"fei ch’ien" in China.
But hey the old saying goes Ignorance is bliss right?
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I think what people are getting at with the ID thats not being clarified is that even though you can deposit cash into anyones account without having ID on you, you can't do anything about selling your coins off. Now I can appreciate the happy fun world but there are a few things missing here.
1) you're 100% on camera all the damn time in a bank and you are now sending money to someone who may or may not be of interest to LE. Not so thrilling to be linked, especially on a transaction that may be across states or even borders.
2) The still does nothing for the person selling the coins to be anonymous. They have a bank account. Who is most likely to be selling coins from SR? vendors. so now you have a vendor giving out bank info, to turn coins into currency so he can re-up. Having lots of bitcoins and no cash is not a great situation for a vendor.
3) still say it's prone to scam and you're paying some guy 2% for what could essentially be provided by localbitcoins, or even an add on craigslist.
Those are just my thoughts. Again I applaud your effort in searching out possibilities, and letting the community know. But I don't think this is going to be a long lasting service and perhaps not a service for people here.
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use a bank account with false infos.
problem solved :).
Have YOU ever opened a bank account using fake ID? If so, you're a better man than I, that's fer sure. You need steel balls to do something like that, man.
that's exactly what I mean. Or open an account in a european nation with very strict banking secrecy laws with using a european citizens records/identity so the records will not be handed over via incoming FACTA compliance.
if you have good enough documents it shouldnt be an issue. use the US account as a clearinghouse to get the money out of the country to a place where it is a lot of effort for the US government to touch it. business accounts are the best way to do this, as international wires from personal accounts are pretty suspicious
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that's exactly what I mean. Or open an account in a european nation with very strict banking secrecy laws with using a european citizens records/identity so the records will not be handed over via incoming FACTA compliance.
if you have good enough documents it shouldnt be an issue. use the US account as a clearinghouse to get the money out of the country to a place where it is a lot of effort for the US government to touch it. business accounts are the best way to do this, as international wires from personal accounts are pretty suspicious
Not to poop all over this idea, because in some ways it's still possible, but the US and most of Europe are crushing bank secrecy laws. Europe is incredibly unstable right now with it's economic troubles and bank secrecy laws don't really protect anyone anymore. In fact most foreign banks won't accept US clients due to the pressure from the US government about reporting standards. Even in such havens as switzerland have has whistle blowers turning over US account info to the US gov.
What you're suggesting at this point is some james bond shit. To be straight up it sounds a little ridiculous. You're going to suddenly take a trip to europe, find a still secure tax haven (to be honest you would be better looking at hong kong, or panama) then have fake documents supplied to you. Then open an account. Return home, still have issues of selling your bitcoins that were in place prior to all this work. Hopefully get money in your US account. Send money from your US account to an over seas account which in itself will most likely trigger some red flags. Bare in mind that this money though "out of reach" is still watched by the IRS and can still be taxable, and to be blunt if anyone can prove fraud it's gone. Then you still have the issue of returning those funds to the US to be used (to be fair thats the least of your troubles). Many things to go wrong and many costs, both up front and on going after you've set that up. There are few places left that allow for private corps to be set up. Many place claim to provide it but few actually do. Many OSPs charge a good chunk for setting this up and even once it's set up there is still this very real issue of getting funds off shore. Which it turns out bitcoins are designed for. So why go to all that trouble of changing coins to currency only to try to move it through the sluggish bloated banking system where it can and most likely will be tracked.
In all honesty this would only make sense for someone thats cashing out huge amounts and retiring off shore. Otherwise you're doing a lot of work, leaving a lot of paper trail, facing multiple possible failing points, just to try to bring the funds back on shore anyways.
Don't get me wrong. What you're saying is still possible (though a lot harder for US citizens) and it does have it's place. I just don't think someone trying to change a few coins, or even a few hundred coins, is the right circumstance for the level of risk, cost, and difficulty.
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that's exactly what I mean. Or open an account in a european nation with very strict banking secrecy laws with using a european citizens records/identity so the records will not be handed over via incoming FACTA compliance.
if you have good enough documents it shouldnt be an issue. use the US account as a clearinghouse to get the money out of the country to a place where it is a lot of effort for the US government to touch it. business accounts are the best way to do this, as international wires from personal accounts are pretty suspicious
Not to poop all over this idea, because in some ways it's still possible, but the US and most of Europe are crushing bank secrecy laws. Europe is incredibly unstable right now with it's economic troubles and bank secrecy laws don't really protect anyone anymore. In fact most foreign banks won't accept US clients due to the pressure from the US government about reporting standards. Even in such havens as switzerland have has whistle blowers turning over US account info to the US gov.
What you're suggesting at this point is some james bond shit. To be straight up it sounds a little ridiculous. You're going to suddenly take a trip to europe, find a still secure tax haven (to be honest you would be better looking at hong kong, or panama) then have fake documents supplied to you. Then open an account. Return home, still have issues of selling your bitcoins that were in place prior to all this work. Hopefully get money in your US account. Send money from your US account to an over seas account which in itself will most likely trigger some red flags. Bare in mind that this money though "out of reach" is still watched by the IRS and can still be taxable, and to be blunt if anyone can prove fraud it's gone. Then you still have the issue of returning those funds to the US to be used (to be fair thats the least of your troubles). Many things to go wrong and many costs, both up front and on going after you've set that up. There are few places left that allow for private corps to be set up. Many place claim to provide it but few actually do. Many OSPs charge a good chunk for setting this up and even once it's set up there is still this very real issue of getting funds off shore. Which it turns out bitcoins are designed for. So why go to all that trouble of changing coins to currency only to try to move it through the sluggish bloated banking system where it can and most likely will be tracked.
In all honesty this would only make sense for someone thats cashing out huge amounts and retiring off shore. Otherwise you're doing a lot of work, leaving a lot of paper trail, facing multiple possible failing points, just to try to bring the funds back on shore anyways.
Don't get me wrong. What you're saying is still possible (though a lot harder for US citizens) and it does have it's place. I just don't think someone trying to change a few coins, or even a few hundred coins, is the right circumstance for the level of risk, cost, and difficulty.
if you know structure of businesses that do lots of international dealings they almost always have slush accounts to hold money before it is wired out of the country. almost no companies do that all from their main grouping of accounts, just shell ones.
it isnt some james bond shit. the only country with major access to banking transaction infos worldwide is america (thru the NSA and IBAN/SEPA tap programs). the only country with the ability to put that type of pressure on international banks to reveal customer banking infos is america. the swiss have not and will not hand over records to EU countries like they have to the USA. singapore is the next best option as well. FACTA ONLY COVERS AMERICANS!
the key to this problem is having the person with the account name register as a citizen of a country NOT the USA. frankly it does not need to NOT be american citizen, which is not a problem for transnational organizations which have members outside the USA.
the crux of it is you simply need someone with dual citizenship that does not declare american citizenship. problem solved :).
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the crux of it is you simply need someone with dual citizenship that does not declare american citizenship. problem solved :).
Geez..stupid me! I can't believe I never thought of that..that's so simple it's almost retarded. So I'll just start a little mission to find someone that a dual citzenship, get them to open a bank account in there name, trust that they won't withdraw funds from there, or blackmail/extort me one day. Great plan!
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pay him/her % off the top like u do any launderer.
take trip a few times a year. withdraw money/transfer to hard asset/take out safety deposit box/stash.
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pay him/her % off the top like u do any launderer.
take trip a few times a year. withdraw money/transfer to hard asset/take out safety deposit box/stash.
hahahahaha..hold on sec let me catch my breath....
Ok I'm good now. I'm not a vendor but if I was I have much better and safer methods if I needed to that doesn't depend on I someone that paid off. As if that every stopped someone from ratting, extorting, or double crossing. But that reminds I do need to find a new money launderer. Do you think if I look on Craigslist I'll find one there? Or maybe I should ask around
Or what I can do is book a flight maybe to Singapore and find a citzen there marry them bring em back to the US to open an account for me and fly them back? I figured since were just getting ideas out of our asses I'd throw mine out there ::) ::)
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laugh all you want. when you get caught and the forfeiture team takes everything i hope you can figure out a better way of doing things.
then again, some of us dont need to trust someone else, we fit this criteria ourselves ;)
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I'm not laughing cause I don't believe in protecting yourself. I'm laughing because your 'simple idea' is in fact anything about simple.
laugh all you want. when you get caught and the forfeiture team takes everything
I'm not a vendor so don't how I wouldn't get caught.
Since your so clearly the expert in the matter of money laundering, traveling to different countries and opening accounts there and the transfer of money internationally and oh I can't forget using dual citzens outside of the US as your mules does that seem like a fucking simple idea? If you think any vendor here imploys that strategy you'd be shocked. Most vendors when it comes to shipping do you know what they do? They make a USPS account and input your address and just ship the tracking slip from there. Not all vendors but I would say the majority. So that being said let's revisit your 'simple' idea, do you really think a vendor would go through all those steps to launder there money?
And btw I don't appreciate the fear mongering with your assest forfeiture comment. It shows ignorance and I don't care for it.
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if you know structure of businesses that do lots of international dealings they almost always have slush accounts to hold money before it is wired out of the country. almost no companies do that all from their main grouping of accounts, just shell ones.
it isnt some james bond shit. the only country with major access to banking transaction infos worldwide is america (thru the NSA and IBAN/SEPA tap programs). the only country with the ability to put that type of pressure on international banks to reveal customer banking infos is america. the swiss have not and will not hand over records to EU countries like they have to the USA. singapore is the next best option as well. FACTA ONLY COVERS AMERICANS!
the key to this problem is having the person with the account name register as a citizen of a country NOT the USA. frankly it does not need to NOT be american citizen, which is not a problem for transnational organizations which have members outside the USA.
the crux of it is you simply need someone with dual citizenship that does not declare american citizenship. problem solved :).
Most banks.. well pretty much any reasonably secure bank that isn't doomed to rip and run or suddenly be nationalized will want to know the ultimate beneficial owner of the company account that it represents. Having an anonymous company, using bearer shares (only 2 jurisdictions left that even issue these I believe), having nominee directors and the like will do a lot for you. But all of that is an expense. In some cases a serious expense. At this point you are also adding to the list of crimes you're committing.
The problem with slush accounts is that mostly you are dealing with legit businesses that are fairly transparent and are simply avoiding taxes. They pay through the nose to tax attorneys to make sure everything is legal, and properly accounted for. With this bitcoin situation you're not talking about the same thing. A vendor here isn't google with accounts in Ireland. Two very different animals.
apart from that, lets say you did want to go to the trouble and expense, because I'm not saying that it's not possible, just that it's difficult and most likely not worth it. So now you're paying 2% to some stranger for no real service, hopefully not getting scammed, and hopefully moving money off shore fast enough (cash in banks doesn't transfer in a matter of hours it can take days or even weeks). On top of which you are now linking the US account that the money is first being transferred to, to the off shore account. The off shore account (if you can get one) costs money to set up, and has fees on every transaction. This isn't your local bank with 2 dollar fees. The formation of an off shore company costs a fair amount of money and requires money every year to renew your license. This is still if you chose to do it all on your own and not pay an OSP to do the leg work for you. The costs just add up quickly to do this right for what could be a fairly small amount of funds. you are better to use LBC, or some other method.
Aside from that you may use a dual citizen to set up the account you're talking about and provided that they never scam you, it will still cost you AND the US will not consider this person some how exempt from US law. They are a US citizen no matter what other nationality. Yes the bank may open the account for mr johnson of spain but if investigated the US will be treating that account as mr. johnson from the US.
Again I'm not saying it's not possible, just difficult, time intensive, still filled with pitfalls, and adding complexity to it is not going to help anyone, not to mention that 2% cost is rising quickly.
You also have to consider that the US and EU are full on exchanging info on their citizens financials in an effort to "stop global terrorism, drug smuggling, and money laundering." In fact most countries are either pressured into it, or bribed into cooperation.
This still doesn't address the issue that the EU is unstable, as are numerous tax havens that support the secrecy you are talking about. Cyprus is a perfect example of this.
As I've repeatedly said, I hope something like this works out, I hope that it's simple and the government doesn't start using it as a way to justify searches of people or to further link people in investigations, or that people aren't ripped off and scammed. But I for one would be very hesitant to use a system like this. There are just so many "oh that could go wrong" spots for me. But I'm sure some people will use it, and it will work for some time.
The final thought is one that i've stated before. But it's really a key one. So let me illustrate this. what happens when johnny meth head shit stain who's well known to local LE and is under surveillance for various drug/gun/violent crimes walks into the bank and drops 2k on the teller and says "yo, I need this deposited to my boys account." Now despite the gold chains and tattoos, the smell of weed and red glazed eyes the teller says, "alright sir please fill out this deposit slip" Everything is done and all goes well. You receive your cash and Johnny heads home to check his bitcoins. Mean while local LE walks into the bank and says "so johnny shit stain was in here. What was he here to do?" and you know 100% that teller isn't telling local LE to fuck off. Instead they are handing over the slip, and any other info they can provide. So LE goes back to the office armed with this info and starts looking over the details and they look at the bank transfer and the account, the name on the account. So they call up the branch where the account was opened and ask a few more question, are you still active, other activity on that account. etcetcetc. Then they call up the LE local to you and your bank thats now been linked. Well shit it's only 3pm not even 6 hrs after johnny shit stain made the transaction and LE is at your door with a search warrant. Shit.. is your computer clean? do you have anything in your home? whats your neighbor think? god forbid you live with family? what about your kids? Shit do you have a lawyer on retainer? well guess there goes that 2k from johnny shit stain. Now you're in a holding cell waiting to be questioned about johnny shit stain and how you know him. yup, you're not going to work today, or picking up your kids. Your account is temporarily frozen and the bank is closing it as soon as you show up to collect your funds. Yeah sure you didn't do anything wrong and your house/computer were clean. So you're let off 12 hrs later without so much as a "have a good night"
you make your way home and hope that everything will be better tmw. Mean while you're now on a list. Some list somewhere that you're never going to get off of. Hopefully you have no priors, hopefully you didn't have to give prints. Now every time you get pulled over, or questioned, or have to do a back ground check this MIGHT come up to haunt you in some fashion. Just because you're not charged doesn't mean that LE won't think you're no good and bust your balls anytime they run into you.
That's what I see happening. IF.. (and it's a huge If) everything else works out right, thats still 100% a real possibility because you don't know a damn thing about someone that's depositing funds to your account. And you have no way of really proving you sent them Bitcoins for it. So whats LE going to assume? That you're doing something sketchy. Even after you prove it was just a bitcoin transaction with someone you never met, you're now going to be giving up info about yourself, your bitcoin wallet, and they are going to look around your computer even harder.
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The final thought is one that i've stated before. But it's really a key one. So let me illustrate this. what happens when johnny meth head shit stain who's well known to local LE and is under surveillance for various drug/gun/violent crimes walks into the bank and drops 2k on the teller and says "yo, I need this deposited to my boys account." Now despite the gold chains and tattoos, the smell of weed and red glazed eyes the teller says, "alright sir please fill out this deposit slip" Everything is done and all goes well. You receive your cash and Johnny heads home to check his bitcoins. Mean while local LE walks into the bank and says "so johnny shit stain was in here. What was he here to do?" and you know 100% that teller isn't telling local LE to fuck off. Instead they are handing over the slip, and any other info they can provide. So LE goes back to the office armed with this info and starts looking over the details and they look at the bank transfer and the account, the name on the account. So they call up the branch where the account was opened and ask a few more question, are you still active, other activity on that account. etcetcetc. Then they call up the LE local to you and your bank thats now been linked. Well shit it's only 3pm not even 6 hrs after johnny shit stain made the transaction and LE is at your door with a search warrant. Shit.. is your computer clean? do you have anything in your home? whats your neighbor think? god forbid you live with family? what about your kids? Shit do you have a lawyer on retainer? well guess there goes that 2k from johnny shit stain. Now you're in a holding cell waiting to be questioned about johnny shit stain and how you know him. yup, you're not going to work today, or picking up your kids. Your account is temporarily frozen and the bank is closing it as soon as you show up to collect your funds. Yeah sure you didn't do anything wrong and your house/computer were clean. So you're let off 12 hrs later without so much as a "have a good night"
That's a very good point and something I even had not considered. The chances of Johnny Shit Stain buying your bitcoins are slim to none but someone close to his level is highly probable at one point or another. Banks are allowed to report and transaction they feel is suspicious. Hell they might not like my perfume that day and report me. Excellent point though +1
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Selling coins for cash is probably teh dumest way to get noticed
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Selling coins for cash is probably teh dumest way to get noticed
Doesn't Blue Sky Traders do this exact same thing? I thought I saw somewhere that he offered direct cash deposits into a Bank of America.
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This guy ...