Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: redalloverthelandguyhere on September 17, 2013, 04:11 pm
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Simple one this. We all know MDMA was once just a research chemical, but its been used by so many people that we now know that it is safe is used in a responsible manner.
I am sure other RCs will be the same way - but we have waited two decades with MDMA, we have documented medical evidence on the ups and downs of that drug.
So, whilst some RCs may be good, I think it unwise to simply allow any drug to be sold just because its not illegal!
I think it would be wiser to actually stick with what drugs we have tried and tested. So for me, its cannabis, hash, anything from the cannabis plant, mushrooms, LSD (RC that is now known very well) coke, E, a touch of dexamfetamine if its there and I need some (3 times a year, work) and also the odd benzo.
I think young people today have too many drugs and the companies making the thousands of RCs are not doing it out of any love of that drug. Its all profit motivation. I swear one day we will see a Thalidamide type situation from some RC.
Old drugs, drugs we know and love, drugs that millions have used, loved, and not been hurt by, stick to those ones!
Let people get paid to be research patients for any RC.
I know many here would like that job and I'm not some old asshole crying about new drugs. Some of the new RCs may well be great, but we need to wait until the people using now have children. If the children have two heads, that RC is no good. ;D
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*They* don't want new drugs, and don't want know if are safe or not, are harmful in any case :)
I'm trying some RC, but I think that's are just imitation/analog right now, to bypass laws and more people, who don't know how to get illegal one, and for poor too. And if you sell a drug in a store, let's do it! can't be bad!
I will return to classics soon :D
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I think RC now compared to back then(Sasha Shulgin times) is motivated by completely different things.
Back in the days of all the 2C and MDMA popularization when they where being made was; curiosity and trying new things
Now days with all the JWH,25i and all that crap the huge difference is; money and making new chemicals to sell in stores and gas stations without worry of what the actual effects on the users, as long as it is legal and making them money.
So my opinion fuck using RC
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No. Don't use them.
While Shulgin is a great example of proper RC use, do remember he was a genius organic chemist with years of experience in proper lab technique and synthesis. He also ensured that he had all proper instruments upon making his chemicals. He had knowledge of how certain substitutions would work on the brain moreover than most amateur chemists who synthesize these chemicals.
These chemicals are probably not made with Shulgin's expertise. Also, as they become banned, people run to make new subsitutions on the chemical to avoid the analogue act and make money. Your health is not of their concern.
Be also wary of chemicals which bear similar effects. For example: while marijuana is a cannabinoid partial agonist, JWH is a full agonist. Full agonists, as far as I know, have not been studied. Therefore, effect of the chemicals does not guarantee they work in the same form, which also implies that their side effect and long term effect profile is unknown and possibly unknowable without clinical trial.
This all assumes that these chemicals are made with lab-grade purity, which may not be the case either as your health is not of their primary concern. It is risky, and if you wake up blind or deaf, a doctor may be completely unable to assist you as the mechanism to that drug is unknown.
Stick to stuff with a known profile, IMO. Silk road has enough real drugs to avoid RC use.
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Yes I think research chemicals are a very good idea. However I think the term "research chemicals" is as stupid and DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING as the term "internet drugs" or selling MDPV as "CrAzYy pArTeY bOOst!" in colorful wrapping that appeal to young brainraped humans who have not yet developed defense mechanisms against the aggressive braincontrolling marketing-robbers.
A less misleading definition of "research chemicals" would be "every chemical that have been researched upon".
Why don't you think it should be allowed to sell potentially dangerous drugs when it is completely normal in todays society to sell dangerous (LETHAL) food, clothes, machines, experiences, ideas etc?
If you want to regulate it, would it not be wiser to make it illegal to sell drugs (and food, clothes etc) without correct labeling including safety guidelines, dangers etc? Or require a license like we do with the nastiest killer objects on our planet; motor vehicles & guns. Or at least stop the misinformation making people think "drugs" are supernatural demons out to terrorize your children when they sleep making normal people act irrational and endanger eachother because of their great fear of drugs (what "they do to people" etc).
I agree the RC-industry since the mephedrone boom have been a nasty ride like most other fast growing industries with such profit potential in environments many people dont want to know anything about (like porn, health supplements etc).
The good thing that have come out of it is that more and more people start to realize how our brains, esp the reward center, work and what "addiction" (to anything, food, environments, behaviours) is and how this is being exploited to the max by ppl with profit hunger without knowledge of their consequences. Now when the propaganda and lies are proven to be untrue humanity seem to realize how retake control of our hijacked brains not buying lifestyles and behaviours put together by marketers but building our own sustainable lifestyles.
We have known this shit for decades but the awakening is always ongoing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10314705/Sugar-is-addictive-and-the-most-dangerous-drug-of-the-times.html
(sorry for the rant, hope you got my point, feel free to ask if I was unclear)
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Yes I think research chemicals are a very good idea. However I think the term "research chemicals" is as stupid and DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING as the term "internet drugs" or selling MDPV as "CrAzYy pArTeY bOOst!" in colorful wrapping that appeal to young brainraped humans who have not yet developed defense mechanisms against the aggressive braincontrolling marketing-robbers.
A less misleading definition of "research chemicals" would be "every chemical that have been researched upon".
Why don't you think it should be allowed to sell potentially dangerous drugs when it is completely normal in todays society to sell dangerous (LETHAL) food, clothes, machines, experiences, ideas etc?
If you want to regulate it, would it not be wiser to make it illegal to sell drugs (and food, clothes etc) without correct labeling including safety guidelines, dangers etc? Or require a license like we do with the nastiest killer objects on our planet; motor vehicles & guns. Or at least stop the misinformation making people think "drugs" are supernatural demons out to terrorize your children when they sleep making normal people act irrational and endanger eachother because of their great fear of drugs (what "they do to people" etc).
I agree the RC-industry since the mephedrone boom have been a nasty ride like most other fast growing industries with such profit potential in environments many people dont want to know anything about (like porn, health supplements etc).
The good thing that have come out of it is that more and more people start to realize how our brains, esp the reward center, work and what "addiction" (to anything, food, environments, behaviours) is and how this is being exploited to the max by ppl with profit hunger without knowledge of their consequences. Now when the propaganda and lies are proven to be untrue humanity seem to realize how retake control of our hijacked brains not buying lifestyles and behaviours put together by marketers but building our own sustainable lifestyles.
We have known this shit for decades but the awakening is always ongoing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10314705/Sugar-is-addictive-and-the-most-dangerous-drug-of-the-times.html
(sorry for the rant, hope you got my point, feel free to ask if I was unclear)
So let's say you overdose on an RC. The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
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symptoms are symptoms.
but I do see what you're saying...
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symptoms are symptoms.
but I do see what you're saying...
This is true, most of the time. But there have been examples of which symptoms are not just symptoms. It may even be the case that no symptoms may be present. Almost any doctor, upon you being poisoned, will want to know what chemical it is. Surely, if they could just go by symptoms, they wouldn't need to concern themselves with the type of drug. Also, symptoms may be sporadic, giving an illusion that the drug has been metabolized. Drug pharmacokinetics are not equal.
Also, those are all short-term. Say you go and start noticing a foot tremor; the doctor treats the foot tremor. It could be nervous damage, but the doctor, ignorant of the RC's mechanistic profile, may not know it. This happens outside the realm of RCs; does it not? I don't see a reason for it not to be the case here. Of course, certain RCs seem to be well-researched, however.
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Yes I think research chemicals are a very good idea. However I think the term "research chemicals" is as stupid and DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING as the term "internet drugs" or selling MDPV as "CrAzYy pArTeY bOOst!" in colorful wrapping that appeal to young brainraped humans who have not yet developed defense mechanisms against the aggressive braincontrolling marketing-robbers.
A less misleading definition of "research chemicals" would be "every chemical that have been researched upon".
Why don't you think it should be allowed to sell potentially dangerous drugs when it is completely normal in todays society to sell dangerous (LETHAL) food, clothes, machines, experiences, ideas etc?
If you want to regulate it, would it not be wiser to make it illegal to sell drugs (and food, clothes etc) without correct labeling including safety guidelines, dangers etc? Or require a license like we do with the nastiest killer objects on our planet; motor vehicles & guns. Or at least stop the misinformation making people think "drugs" are supernatural demons out to terrorize your children when they sleep making normal people act irrational and endanger eachother because of their great fear of drugs (what "they do to people" etc).
I agree the RC-industry since the mephedrone boom have been a nasty ride like most other fast growing industries with such profit potential in environments many people dont want to know anything about (like porn, health supplements etc).
The good thing that have come out of it is that more and more people start to realize how our brains, esp the reward center, work and what "addiction" (to anything, food, environments, behaviours) is and how this is being exploited to the max by ppl with profit hunger without knowledge of their consequences. Now when the propaganda and lies are proven to be untrue humanity seem to realize how retake control of our hijacked brains not buying lifestyles and behaviours put together by marketers but building our own sustainable lifestyles.
We have known this shit for decades but the awakening is always ongoing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10314705/Sugar-is-addictive-and-the-most-dangerous-drug-of-the-times.html
(sorry for the rant, hope you got my point, feel free to ask if I was unclear)
So let's say you overdose on an RC. The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Wow I did not expect such a interpertation of my text on here even if I would expect it as a kind of standard answer among civilians whos superiors have tried to protect them by making it a survival instinct to react to anything associated to drugs with going fight/flight-mode ala "drugs are bad mmkay" (before questioning your reaction, if you start question you may become one of them and its not worth it!).
(spoiler: the other standard answer is "how can you know what is really in that white powder" and the one of "what if it seems safe but in long term gives you cancer?" and these are just words (dont want to call them arguments) that can be used universally in debates about food, air, drinkingwater, technology etc..)
I am imagining all kinds of spectacular reactions that would make good storys to the scenario you gave me (blame ze drugs!) but i'll try and keep it short.
I feel I'd need some hints towards which chemical I have overdosed to give you a proper answer. Anyways I guess you go by the "newly invented drugs and old drugs which havent been around"-definition and not the "chemicals which have been researched upon".
Maybe you are new here or you have found some interesting drug on here which interferes with your ability to think logically. I did not know there were many people left who actually believe most RCs or drugs in general affect and "damage" the body in a very similar way. Sorry to burst your bubble but this is not the case.
Have I smoked so much cannabinoids I just sit at home, laughing at cartoons not caring about my diet or excercising about to die in diabetes or heart failiure? Then I would follow the doctors advice not to be stupid anymore.
Have I had a mouthful of Pyrazolam and Fluborazepam turning me into a useless sleeping benzo zombie for days? Then I would try make up for what I missed while sleeping and try warning people from doing the same mistake
Have I made my class mates wanting to kill me for not being in class the whole semester but acing the tests with a few days hard core study binges on 2-fa? If the doctor can see it obviously is damaging my body (like if I already have some heart damage which makes it extra sensitive to stress) bad I would stop, otherwise I dont think I could resist trying to become a super student using benefits of stims as study aid until I develop dependency, addiction, feel noticeably depressed after stims etc.
Is my arm turning blue after days of trying injecting as much ethylphenidate as possible home alone in my trailer? Let the helping doctors cut that shit off before the infection spreads! Then maybe try cashing in on talking in schools about the dangers of drugs etc (every school would pick the guy who lost a arm since it makes big visual impression on the kids)
Or were you refering to RemoteControl-cars? If I had really too much of them and the doctors would try to make stop hoarding and sell them I think I'd prefer to build a big RC-car park with racing-tracks, jumps, mechanics section etc.
Your turn: what would YOU do?
Some more questions:
So let's say you get skin rashes and headaches when wearing an RC (research clothing; a shirt in this case). The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical (which was used to color your shirt) has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Feel free to ask me more scientific questions. Maybe you wonder what I would do if I got lung cancer from polluted air in a big city? What would I do if I were in a car accident that happened in a way unlike other accidents and gave me complicated injuries and broke my bones in ways the doctors never seen before?
... ::)
Edit, had to add some seriousness:
Have myself experienced "OD" on some kind of synthetic cannabinoid, but that was under stupid jackass circumstances & under influence of other drugs, some lack of seep and probably not good nutrition.
Was blacked out sitting still for around 15min, some say my lips was turning slight blue as my face was turning pale, but after the 15min I could communicate to my friends I just had to sit still and wait it out (thinking I could not move or communicate properly, but did not try) which I did for ~45mins then I sobered up.
Heard some mephedrone users (probably daily or heavy users) experienced blue knees (some name for the sympthom) and other problems related with vasoconstriction caused by meph (and many other cathinones & rc-stims) which can decrease bloodflow. Also remember stories of MDPV users noticing visually loss of muscle tissue on their calves where the blood had stopped flowing.
Hey lets try this question too:
So lets say you do NOT overdose on an RC but use it carefully after studying what science you can find on the subject and then also the massive amount of anecdotal science over at drugs-forums, bluelight etc.
You also ask the doctors to check your health and its normal. The substances have not had clinical trials so the sky is the limit. What do you do?
Do you quickly destroy your physical and mental health with over using stims and gets heavily addicted to benzos and opiates in a try to fight the incoming psychosis and mind terror of what you may have done to your body?
Do you as many others find out that one short trip on ketamine/mxe, just laying in your bed letting your taughts flow, work better for your depression than any other´antideps like ssris PLUS you no longer crave nicotine like before. If you as a regular smoker smokes again after mxe the nicotine effect is much stronger and if you stop smoking after MXE the nicotine cravings are alot easier.
Do you find out that benzos actually can help people fight their social phobia and similar anxiety (and thus greatly improve their lives since they can interact and share ideas with people in a constructive way without always being afraid) WITHOUT having to experience the terrifying human breakdown of benzo withdrawal (which you ofcourse studied closely before even thinking of trying
Do you experience a concert in a ecstatic passionate way on bk-MDMA or 6-apb or similar mdma-like empathy, joy & love-bringing chemials and make a bunch of new friends because you empathize, find interest & see joy in what they tell you in a way a beer buzz could not (it tends to make conversations into bragging contests).
What do you do?
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symptoms are symptoms.
but I do see what you're saying...
This is true, most of the time. But there have been examples of which symptoms are not just symptoms. It may even be the case that no symptoms may be present. Almost any doctor, upon you being poisoned, will want to know what chemical it is. Surely, if they could just go by symptoms, they wouldn't need to concern themselves with the type of drug. Also, symptoms may be sporadic, giving an illusion that the drug has been metabolized. Drug pharmacokinetics are not equal.
Also, those are all short-term. Say you go and start noticing a foot tremor; the doctor treats the foot tremor. It could be nervous damage, but the doctor, ignorant of the RC's mechanistic profile, may not know it. This happens outside the realm of RCs; does it not? I don't see a reason for it not to be the case here. Of course, certain RCs seem to be well-researched, however.
very good points
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Yes I think research chemicals are a very good idea. However I think the term "research chemicals" is as stupid and DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING as the term "internet drugs" or selling MDPV as "CrAzYy pArTeY bOOst!" in colorful wrapping that appeal to young brainraped humans who have not yet developed defense mechanisms against the aggressive braincontrolling marketing-robbers.
A less misleading definition of "research chemicals" would be "every chemical that have been researched upon".
Why don't you think it should be allowed to sell potentially dangerous drugs when it is completely normal in todays society to sell dangerous (LETHAL) food, clothes, machines, experiences, ideas etc?
If you want to regulate it, would it not be wiser to make it illegal to sell drugs (and food, clothes etc) without correct labeling including safety guidelines, dangers etc? Or require a license like we do with the nastiest killer objects on our planet; motor vehicles & guns. Or at least stop the misinformation making people think "drugs" are supernatural demons out to terrorize your children when they sleep making normal people act irrational and endanger eachother because of their great fear of drugs (what "they do to people" etc).
I agree the RC-industry since the mephedrone boom have been a nasty ride like most other fast growing industries with such profit potential in environments many people dont want to know anything about (like porn, health supplements etc).
The good thing that have come out of it is that more and more people start to realize how our brains, esp the reward center, work and what "addiction" (to anything, food, environments, behaviours) is and how this is being exploited to the max by ppl with profit hunger without knowledge of their consequences. Now when the propaganda and lies are proven to be untrue humanity seem to realize how retake control of our hijacked brains not buying lifestyles and behaviours put together by marketers but building our own sustainable lifestyles.
We have known this shit for decades but the awakening is always ongoing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10314705/Sugar-is-addictive-and-the-most-dangerous-drug-of-the-times.html
(sorry for the rant, hope you got my point, feel free to ask if I was unclear)
So let's say you overdose on an RC. The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Wow I did not expect such a interpertation of my text on here even if I would expect it as a kind of standard answer among civilians whos superiors have tried to protect them by making it a survival instinct to react to anything associated to drugs with going fight/flight-mode ala "drugs are bad mmkay" (before questioning your reaction, if you start question you may become one of them and its not worth it!).
(spoiler: the other standard answer is "how can you know what is really in that white powder" and the one of "what if it seems safe but in long term gives you cancer?" and these are just words (dont want to call them arguments) that can be used universally in debates about food, air, drinkingwater, technology etc..)
I am imagining all kinds of spectacular reactions that would make good storys to the scenario you gave me (blame ze drugs!) but i'll try and keep it short.
I feel I'd need some hints towards which chemical I have overdosed to give you a proper answer. Anyways I guess you go by the "newly invented drugs and old drugs which havent been around"-definition and not the "chemicals which have been researched upon".
Maybe you are new here or you have found some interesting drug on here which interferes with your ability to think logically. I did not know there were many people left who actually believe most RCs or drugs in general affect and "damage" the body in a very similar way. Sorry to burst your bubble but this is not the case.
Have I smoked so much cannabinoids I just sit at home, laughing at cartoons not caring about my diet or excercising about to die in diabetes or heart failiure? Then I would follow the doctors advice not to be stupid anymore.
Have I had a mouthful of Pyrazolam and Fluborazepam turning me into a useless sleeping benzo zombie for days? Then I would try make up for what I missed while sleeping and try warning people from doing the same mistake
Have I made my class mates wanting to kill me for not being in class the whole semester but acing the tests with a few days hard core study binges on 2-fa? If the doctor can see it obviously is damaging my body (like if I already have some heart damage which makes it extra sensitive to stress) bad I would stop, otherwise I dont think I could resist trying to become a super student using benefits of stims as study aid until I develop dependency, addiction, feel noticeably depressed after stims etc.
Is my arm turning blue after days of trying injecting as much ethylphenidate as possible home alone in my trailer? Let the helping doctors cut that shit off before the infection spreads! Then maybe try cashing in on talking in schools about the dangers of drugs etc (every school would pick the guy who lost a arm since it makes big visual impression on the kids)
Or were you refering to RemoteControl-cars? If I had really too much of them and the doctors would try to make stop hoarding and sell them I think I'd prefer to build a big RC-car park with racing-tracks, jumps, mechanics section etc.
Your turn: what would YOU do?
Some more questions:
So let's say you get skin rashes and headaches when wearing an RC (research clothing; a shirt in this case). The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical (which was used to color your shirt) has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Feel free to ask me more scientific questions. Maybe you wonder what I would do if I got lung cancer from polluted air in a big city? What would I do if I were in a car accident that happened in a way unlike other accidents and gave me complicated injuries and broke my bones in ways the doctors never seen before?
... ::)
Edit, had to add some seriousness:
Have myself experienced "OD" on some kind of synthetic cannabinoid, but that was under stupid jackass circumstances & under influence of other drugs, some lack of seep and probably not good nutrition.
Was blacked out sitting still for around 15min, some say my lips was turning slight blue as my face was turning pale, but after the 15min I could communicate to my friends I just had to sit still and wait it out (thinking I could not move or communicate properly, but did not try) which I did for ~45mins then I sobered up.
Heard some mephedrone users (probably daily or heavy users) experienced blue knees (some name for the sympthom) and other problems related with vasoconstriction caused by meph (and many other cathinones & rc-stims) which can decrease bloodflow. Also remember stories of MDPV users noticing visually loss of muscle tissue on their calves where the blood had stopped flowing.
Hey lets try this question too:
So lets say you do NOT overdose on an RC but use it carefully after studying what science you can find on the subject and then also the massive amount of anecdotal science over at drugs-forums, bluelight etc.
You also ask the doctors to check your health and its normal. The substances have not had clinical trials so the sky is the limit. What do you do?
Do you quickly destroy your physical and mental health with over using stims and gets heavily addicted to benzos and opiates in a try to fight the incoming psychosis and mind terror of what you may have done to your body?
Do you as many others find out that one short trip on ketamine/mxe, just laying in your bed letting your taughts flow, work better for your depression than any other´antideps like ssris PLUS you no longer crave nicotine like before. If you as a regular smoker smokes again after mxe the nicotine effect is much stronger and if you stop smoking after MXE the nicotine cravings are alot easier.
Do you find out that benzos actually can help people fight their social phobia and similar anxiety (and thus greatly improve their lives since they can interact and share ideas with people in a constructive way without always being afraid) WITHOUT having to experience the terrifying human breakdown of benzo withdrawal (which you ofcourse studied closely before even thinking of trying
Do you experience a concert in a ecstatic passionate way on bk-MDMA or 6-apb or similar mdma-like empathy, joy & love-bringing chemials and make a bunch of new friends because you empathize, find interest & see joy in what they tell you in a way a beer buzz could not (it tends to make conversations into bragging contests).
What do you do?
Quite obviously, my presence here implies that I am at least somewhat pro-drugs, so I don't have the "blame ze drugs" mentality. The issue with RCs is that they are not studied in the same fashion that other drugs are; the LD50 is unknown and as a result dosing can be extremely dangerous. All the 'horrible drugs' in the industry are studied by scientists from both the pro-drug and anti-drug camps. As such, antidotes for overdoses and specifically tailored treatments are made for known drugs.
This is not the case for RCs; therefore, no matter how good they make you feel, you have no idea what they are doing to your body. Unless you have a GC/MS tested drug (because there are no NIC test for newer RCs), you don't even know what the drug is or what it is mixed with. If common drugs are often cut, what makes you think these drugs are not?
If you enjoy them, by all means enjoy your accompanying risk, but this whole pro-drug and 'how good it feels' argument is irrelevant to the safety of these chemicals.
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There are vast differences between research chemicals.
Some actually have been tested for safety and have known LD50 values in rats or other lab mammals, orthers have not be tested at all apart from their receptor affinity and could be dangerous through unforeseen mechanisms.
As for purity: research chemicals usually are extremely pure since the goal is to learn about one substance, not about a mixture of by-products and precursors. This obviously changes when people attempt to synthesize these substances in ill-equipped labs as has happened with the production of meth.
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There are vast differences between research chemicals.
Some actually have been tested for safety and have known LD50 values in rats or other lab mammals, orthers have not be tested at all apart from their receptor affinity and could be dangerous through unforeseen mechanisms.
As for purity: research chemicals usually are extremely pure since the goal is to learn about one substance, not about a mixture of by-products and precursors. This obviously changes when people attempt to synthesize these substances in ill-equipped labs as has happened with the production of meth.
Yes, of course. Sorry if I failed to make that clear. My main concern is with RCs that are poorly studied. For Shulgin RCs; I would feel more more comfortable. However, for the substances the above user mentioned:
Methylone (bk-MDMA, Explosion, Ease, m1) dosages are not well documented in the literature and the following dosages are based on a submission by Winta and reports gathered by Erowid. Methylone is generally available as pure crystals and rarely, if ever, pressed into tablets. As one contributor notes, "The most reasonable dosage recommendation for such a poorly documented substance would be 'none at all', but since this advice is unlikely to be taken seriously." The variability in response reported is reason for special concern and should be taken seriously by those considering ingesting methylone.
So not enough data in literature appears for that one; 6-apb does not have much data either. And I was under the assumption that most of these are clandestine chemists, as most people procure them from online with what could be fabricated gc/ms data. I recall calling a number that came with the 'purity authentication' of an RC to hear a sex line. The report looked very legit.
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dosing is not the real problem, long term side effects are more important and are unknown.
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I would be careful with that.
Dosing these things is a very difficult matter. Synthetic cannabinoids can be effective at very low doses, down to the milligram range having the same effect as grams of cannabis.
You see a similar thing in, for example, benzodiazpines. While structurally very similar, xanax is about 20 times more active per mg compared to valium. This is information we all have access too, but imagine the mistake of taking something like 20 mg of xanax expecting an outcome comparable to popping two valiums?
Reading reports on research chemicals is not that easy either. Most report on relative affinities, but affinity does not equate to activation in all cases, so you could easily make big mistakes in dosages if you are unfamiliar with pharmacology when studying publications.
But if you get all of that right, long term effects are surely a consideration. With something like synthetic cannabioids i suspect the long term effects will be comparable to actual cannabis, but it cannot be excluded that by some side mechanism there are other effects noone knows about yet.
You cannot simply find a cohort of 20-year-long users of synthetic cannabis users and investigate if they have any health issues compared to the rest of the population, since they simply do not exist.
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It may be a little bit off-topic but I always thought of how many undiscovered psychoactive substances there have to be in plants and animals, maybe in deep sea animals no one has even seen before. Or in the large rainforests, maybe we'll have a chance of discovering them before some parts of our species decide that rainforest is only good for making quick and dirty money.
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Yes I think research chemicals are a very good idea. However I think the term "research chemicals" is as stupid and DANGEROUSLY MISLEADING as the term "internet drugs" or selling MDPV as "CrAzYy pArTeY bOOst!" in colorful wrapping that appeal to young brainraped humans who have not yet developed defense mechanisms against the aggressive braincontrolling marketing-robbers.
A less misleading definition of "research chemicals" would be "every chemical that have been researched upon".
Why don't you think it should be allowed to sell potentially dangerous drugs when it is completely normal in todays society to sell dangerous (LETHAL) food, clothes, machines, experiences, ideas etc?
If you want to regulate it, would it not be wiser to make it illegal to sell drugs (and food, clothes etc) without correct labeling including safety guidelines, dangers etc? Or require a license like we do with the nastiest killer objects on our planet; motor vehicles & guns. Or at least stop the misinformation making people think "drugs" are supernatural demons out to terrorize your children when they sleep making normal people act irrational and endanger eachother because of their great fear of drugs (what "they do to people" etc).
I agree the RC-industry since the mephedrone boom have been a nasty ride like most other fast growing industries with such profit potential in environments many people dont want to know anything about (like porn, health supplements etc).
The good thing that have come out of it is that more and more people start to realize how our brains, esp the reward center, work and what "addiction" (to anything, food, environments, behaviours) is and how this is being exploited to the max by ppl with profit hunger without knowledge of their consequences. Now when the propaganda and lies are proven to be untrue humanity seem to realize how retake control of our hijacked brains not buying lifestyles and behaviours put together by marketers but building our own sustainable lifestyles.
We have known this shit for decades but the awakening is always ongoing:
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/netherlands/10314705/Sugar-is-addictive-and-the-most-dangerous-drug-of-the-times.html
(sorry for the rant, hope you got my point, feel free to ask if I was unclear)
So let's say you overdose on an RC. The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Wow I did not expect such a interpertation of my text on here even if I would expect it as a kind of standard answer among civilians whos superiors have tried to protect them by making it a survival instinct to react to anything associated to drugs with going fight/flight-mode ala "drugs are bad mmkay" (before questioning your reaction, if you start question you may become one of them and its not worth it!).
(spoiler: the other standard answer is "how can you know what is really in that white powder" and the one of "what if it seems safe but in long term gives you cancer?" and these are just words (dont want to call them arguments) that can be used universally in debates about food, air, drinkingwater, technology etc..)
I am imagining all kinds of spectacular reactions that would make good storys to the scenario you gave me (blame ze drugs!) but i'll try and keep it short.
I feel I'd need some hints towards which chemical I have overdosed to give you a proper answer. Anyways I guess you go by the "newly invented drugs and old drugs which havent been around"-definition and not the "chemicals which have been researched upon".
Maybe you are new here or you have found some interesting drug on here which interferes with your ability to think logically. I did not know there were many people left who actually believe most RCs or drugs in general affect and "damage" the body in a very similar way. Sorry to burst your bubble but this is not the case.
Have I smoked so much cannabinoids I just sit at home, laughing at cartoons not caring about my diet or excercising about to die in diabetes or heart failiure? Then I would follow the doctors advice not to be stupid anymore.
Have I had a mouthful of Pyrazolam and Fluborazepam turning me into a useless sleeping benzo zombie for days? Then I would try make up for what I missed while sleeping and try warning people from doing the same mistake
Have I made my class mates wanting to kill me for not being in class the whole semester but acing the tests with a few days hard core study binges on 2-fa? If the doctor can see it obviously is damaging my body (like if I already have some heart damage which makes it extra sensitive to stress) bad I would stop, otherwise I dont think I could resist trying to become a super student using benefits of stims as study aid until I develop dependency, addiction, feel noticeably depressed after stims etc.
Is my arm turning blue after days of trying injecting as much ethylphenidate as possible home alone in my trailer? Let the helping doctors cut that shit off before the infection spreads! Then maybe try cashing in on talking in schools about the dangers of drugs etc (every school would pick the guy who lost a arm since it makes big visual impression on the kids)
Or were you refering to RemoteControl-cars? If I had really too much of them and the doctors would try to make stop hoarding and sell them I think I'd prefer to build a big RC-car park with racing-tracks, jumps, mechanics section etc.
Your turn: what would YOU do?
Some more questions:
So let's say you get skin rashes and headaches when wearing an RC (research clothing; a shirt in this case). The doctors frantically are trying to help you, yet the chemical (which was used to color your shirt) has no clinical trials and therefore no known antidote. What do you do?
Feel free to ask me more scientific questions. Maybe you wonder what I would do if I got lung cancer from polluted air in a big city? What would I do if I were in a car accident that happened in a way unlike other accidents and gave me complicated injuries and broke my bones in ways the doctors never seen before?
... ::)
Edit, had to add some seriousness:
Have myself experienced "OD" on some kind of synthetic cannabinoid, but that was under stupid jackass circumstances & under influence of other drugs, some lack of seep and probably not good nutrition.
Was blacked out sitting still for around 15min, some say my lips was turning slight blue as my face was turning pale, but after the 15min I could communicate to my friends I just had to sit still and wait it out (thinking I could not move or communicate properly, but did not try) which I did for ~45mins then I sobered up.
Heard some mephedrone users (probably daily or heavy users) experienced blue knees (some name for the sympthom) and other problems related with vasoconstriction caused by meph (and many other cathinones & rc-stims) which can decrease bloodflow. Also remember stories of MDPV users noticing visually loss of muscle tissue on their calves where the blood had stopped flowing.
Hey lets try this question too:
So lets say you do NOT overdose on an RC but use it carefully after studying what science you can find on the subject and then also the massive amount of anecdotal science over at drugs-forums, bluelight etc.
You also ask the doctors to check your health and its normal. The substances have not had clinical trials so the sky is the limit. What do you do?
Do you quickly destroy your physical and mental health with over using stims and gets heavily addicted to benzos and opiates in a try to fight the incoming psychosis and mind terror of what you may have done to your body?
Do you as many others find out that one short trip on ketamine/mxe, just laying in your bed letting your taughts flow, work better for your depression than any other´antideps like ssris PLUS you no longer crave nicotine like before. If you as a regular smoker smokes again after mxe the nicotine effect is much stronger and if you stop smoking after MXE the nicotine cravings are alot easier.
Do you find out that benzos actually can help people fight their social phobia and similar anxiety (and thus greatly improve their lives since they can interact and share ideas with people in a constructive way without always being afraid) WITHOUT having to experience the terrifying human breakdown of benzo withdrawal (which you ofcourse studied closely before even thinking of trying
Do you experience a concert in a ecstatic passionate way on bk-MDMA or 6-apb or similar mdma-like empathy, joy & love-bringing chemials and make a bunch of new friends because you empathize, find interest & see joy in what they tell you in a way a beer buzz could not (it tends to make conversations into bragging contests).
What do you do?
Quite obviously, my presence here implies that I am at least somewhat pro-drugs, so I don't have the "blame ze drugs" mentality. The issue with RCs is that they are not studied in the same fashion that other drugs are; the LD50 is unknown and as a result dosing can be extremely dangerous. All the 'horrible drugs' in the industry are studied by scientists from both the pro-drug and anti-drug camps. As such, antidotes for overdoses and specifically tailored treatments are made for known drugs.
This is not the case for RCs; therefore, no matter how good they make you feel, you have no idea what they are doing to your body. Unless you have a GC/MS tested drug (because there are no NIC test for newer RCs), you don't even know what the drug is or what it is mixed with. If common drugs are often cut, what makes you think these drugs are not?
If you enjoy them, by all means enjoy your accompanying risk, but this whole pro-drug and 'how good it feels' argument is irrelevant to the safety of these chemicals.
The fact that RCs are not studied in the same fashion as old drugs is not a problem for me as I find reading user experiences, speculations and theories in different (never trust one source) online forums often giving a quite clear image of toxicity, dosing guidelines, common and uncommon effects and sideeffects, what warningsigns to keep a look out for, what to not mix with etc.
I think most ppls problems with drugs are from not studying safety guidelines or not following them. Sure you can find lots of terrible advice and lies about drugs in this non controlled anonymous environment but you can also get that from controlled health & medicinal science industry (no disrespect to the heroes of humanity working here, I owe you my life for your work). I cant be the only one who heard ppl not knowing benzo was addictive (like a decade ago) when they got on it and extremely dangerous to quit a benzohabit without proper tapering and same stories with tramadol and lyrica.
Man how high are you? Why would you think that I assume "how good they make me feel" gives me knowledge about how the substance work in my body? I try to study various sources by reading and listening to gain that kind of knowledge. Nobody here think we know how mdma works in the body BECAUSE it makes ppl feel really good, we all know there is loads of serious and unserious (like the proapaganda campaign that overdosed rats with meth which gave "proof" to lots of news articles that ecstasy caused holes in your brain) science that together makes up the somewhat rough knowledge of how it works inside the body.
I have quite some first hand experience with poisoning from cutting agents and nearly lost a friend to allergic reaction from booze with a gazillion funky synthetic aromas. One of the reasons I am here is because there seem to be a few quite trustable sources for quality products not cut with poison.
I also try score food from trusted local sources and will actually grow my own veggies next spring, the cheap shit cut with glucose fructose syrup and MSG is fucking up so big parts of humanity it gives me the creeps.
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There is obviously some difference in quality of information between what comes up with a google search for a substance, compared to what is stated on the leaflet that comes with it when legally bought from a pharmacy with a prescription.
The fact that benzodiazepines are addictive and sudden cessation can be dangerous has been clearly provided in the information leaflet that comes with the box of pills. This has been the case for probably at least two decades. It is up to the user to read this information or not, but it has always been made readily available.
There are plenty of other side effects possible though, some of which are no concern in some case, while they are extremely important in others. A research chemical could, for example, be a pretty safe drug to use generally, but also extremely teratogenic. This would result in extreme problems for pregnant women using them (and more so, their offspring), while it poses zero health hazard to a male user.
Something similar may arise with drug interactions: perfectly safe, unless you combine it with cholesterol lowering agent X upon which point you will die right then and there.
For approved medications large trials are performed shedding light on such interactions and sensitive groups. With research chemicals none of this research is normally available. User reports are generally not the most reliable source either: The fact that they are posted means that the user at least survived the experience. Since these are not placebo controlled trials it is hard to determine how much of the effect is real, not what negative experiences people will attribute to the substance. If you were a bit ill to begin with and feel like shit after taking some RC, you may or not blame that RC for worsening your condition. Without proper research it seems impossible to get proper facts though.
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research chemicals need to be dosed with the utmost care, as many of them seem to have unpredictable negative side effects. stay safe!
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Excellent question for this forum and much intelligent discussion.
I don't look down on anyone for doing RCs as long as they have done their homework. If they haven't really done their homework I suspect garbage head syndrome and kind of look down on that.
I do think they need to acknowledge they are being guinea pigs. There is nothing inherently wrong with that, but it is a big deal and one should acknowledge it. Doing cocaine or alcohol is not guinea pig territory.
If for example my brother or close friend was experimenting with RCs, I would likely have a tough love type talk with them.
I feel very strongly that the golden oldies are by far our best bet for intoxication. In no particular order: cannabis, alcohol, opioids, cocaine, psylocybin, tobacco all have 'clinical' and anecdotal data and knowledge that is absolutely immense. I feel confident that I know what I am doing with these.
I would say LSD, MDMA, methamphetamine are all nearly in the same tier, but you can't pretend they go back in the history of the species like cannabis, alcohol, opoids do. We don't even know how far back those go!
And read some Terrence McKenna re: psilocybin to blow your mind there.
In short: there are so many great and well understood drugs, I don't see a reason to roll the dice with the new RC stuff.
In 25-50 years, some of these popular RCs will likely be viewed in the same way as LSD or MDMA which is fine if that is the case.
Be safe and don't chew anyone's face off!