Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: dontek on October 04, 2013, 10:16 pm

Title: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: dontek on October 04, 2013, 10:16 pm
1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

Theres our money...
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: NeoLex on October 04, 2013, 11:07 pm
1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX
 hack it..
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Juno on October 04, 2013, 11:18 pm
Fucking cocksuckers.... just under 3.5 million usd

http://blockchain.info/address/1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX

Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: dontek on October 04, 2013, 11:22 pm
Sooooo tempted to create some new blockchain accounts and request payments over and over and over again to see if some dipshit fed would accidently confirm the payment and send.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Fah-Q on October 04, 2013, 11:50 pm
I wonder how they gonna cash that out.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: NeoLex on October 04, 2013, 11:51 pm
Anyone see the Public note they put with it..

" PROVERBS 10:2 - Treasures gained by wickedness do not profit, but righteousness delivers from death"
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: flwrchlds9 on October 04, 2013, 11:59 pm
BTC are not illegal. SR was a world wide market. SR was not a USA business.
Things on SR were legal in some countries and they carried fully legal things also.

Interesting legal questions.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: John Gotti on October 05, 2013, 12:01 am
there is a link to a new wiki and the last sentence is
"The complaint also says that law enforcement officials have detailed information on the "use of certain Bitcoin wallets in the operation of Silk Road's escrow system."
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Bungee54 on October 05, 2013, 12:04 am
I asked the spokesperson if users of Silk Road could try to recover the Bitcoins in their now-seized accounts.

She laughed.

“There is not likely to be retribution in this case,” she said. “If they’re knowingly buying something illegal, they can’t get their money back.”


from http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/04/fbi-silk-road-bitcoin-seizure/



another legal question.

How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?

Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?


probably all wisful thinking but i would love to hear a lawyers take on this
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Bungee54 on October 05, 2013, 12:07 am
also lets mark al these coins as belonging to the FBI so nobody will exchange them and the fucks dont get a penny haha


anyone checked what blockchain.info is telling with their "laundry check" ?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Ben on October 05, 2013, 12:40 am
How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?

Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?

They actually cannot. At least some of the BTC seized here were taken out of the wallets of SR users, and they were just sitting in their wallets. These users could have used them to purchase something perfectly legal in their or even US jurisdiction.

There might be some opening for a class action suit against the us government here.

Coins that were in escrow and involved illegal drug operations could be seized by the us government if either the vendor or the client resides in the us. But btc sitting in wallets is another matter as that has not actually been involved in any illegal transaction so far.

Also, SR was used to do a lot of business outside the US. I'm quite sure the US is not entitled to simply seize the money that was, for example, used in a transaction between a seller from india and a client from europe.

I suppose there will actually be legal proceedings over this, as many vendors have been involved in selling substances that are not illegal even in the US. This could include research chemicals, presciption (but unscheduled) drugs, and a whole range of other items.

Perhaps there are foreign vendors that have lost so much money in this process it would actually be worth pursuing legal action. For the average user with a couple of bitcoin illegally seized this is not feasible, but if you lost 1000 BTC whilst conducting business outside of the US it just might be. 
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: dontek on October 05, 2013, 12:41 am
I asked the spokesperson if users of Silk Road could try to recover the Bitcoins in their now-seized accounts.

She laughed.

“There is not likely to be retribution in this case,” she said. “If they’re knowingly buying something illegal, they can’t get their money back.”


from http://www.forbes.com/sites/kashmirhill/2013/10/04/fbi-silk-road-bitcoin-seizure/



another legal question.

How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?

Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?


probably all wisful thinking but i would love to hear a lawyers take on this

Theres another thread talking about this but will post here as well. I have reached out to council who is expecting to have an answer for me on monday.

Especially those who did all of their transactions overseas outside of US jurisdiction.

Its obvious that the server that houses the wallets is not on US territory. Per the FBI and DOJ, money can be seized so long as it at some point has connections to the united states, however, the btc on the SR wallets was never in the US per say.

He has stated that there will need to be investigations as to where the escrow and wallet bitcoins currently are. With some people claiming to receive btc to their emergency wallets AFTER the domain seizure, it brings the question on whether or not the feds actually have control of the physical server that is housing the bitcoins or not. I believe there still is much speculation on whether or not the $3.5mil is that money or DPRs money.  Hope to have some clarification on this over the weekend.

As far as lawsuit, there is always the possibility of filing as John Does vs the United States of America. Possibly identifying the John Does simply by there btc wallet address on SR. This could theoretically be a huge thing for people to band together and proceed towards the feds. Whether or not US citizens wish to be included would be a big question since of the jurisdiction and opening the possiblity of scrutiny from the feds.

However, during the conversation that I had with council, it seems as if there would be a great foundation for especially foreign vendors to file to receive their funds back.

I will update any word that I receive and they have stated they are going to setup secure email accounts for possible litigants to be incontact through.

Unless of course in the meantime someone can somehow hack that account and transfer all the btc. And if that happened,  fuck it. To be honest, I still wouldnt be concerned about the money I lost because it would be a great "FUCK YOU" to the slimey bastards in Langley.

Anyone else who has council may want to discuss with them as well, as we may have the opportunity to do something big and noteworthy here.

Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Magic Man on October 05, 2013, 12:49 am
It would be nice if all the exchangers banded together and refused to cashout any transactions from this account.
That alone would be a victory in my eyes.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: shocky on October 05, 2013, 01:21 am
Those BASTARDS.

All of the money in my account is rightfully and LEGALLY mine.
I wrote only poetry, only designed graphical logos and wrote short stories!
I committed no crime, unless being free is a crime.

Not everyone can say what I am saying, because this sort of site is used for drug trafficking, but for ME, a POET, I demand my bitcoins back!
Of course, like figures such as Victor Hugo or anyone else on a banned book list, I am sure the USA government would rather have me dead if they could.

Those bastards.

Where is retribution? Where is justice? Where is my freedom?

Where is their honor as human beings?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: NeoLex on October 05, 2013, 01:24 am
I had only 0.10 cents

but still the US Government still stole from me -___-
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Thirty_Rox on October 05, 2013, 01:46 am
1F1tAaz5x1HUXrCNLbtMDqcw6o5GNn4xqX
 hack it..

LMFAO, If I knew how to break into a btc wallet, I'd have my coins back. Mine have not been transferred out yet. Looks like they're emptying them out one at a time. These transfers go back as far as 10/2, but some of them are dated 10/5 and only have one confirmation. They're making transfers as we speak.

Yep, I combed through them for a couple hours today trying to track down my wallet (I know exactly how much was in it) and the whole time they kept adding more addresses.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: rigby on October 05, 2013, 01:58 am
...so does this mean that they have each one of our SR wallet addresses? Can they track where the deposits came from?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 05, 2013, 02:22 am
How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?

Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?

They actually cannot. At least some of the BTC seized here were taken out of the wallets of SR users, and they were just sitting in their wallets. These users could have used them to purchase something perfectly legal in their or even US jurisdiction.
Well if you've made a purchase within the last month, they can see it in your transaction history. I'm not sure how long transaction records were kept for, but last time I looked at my history, there were a month's worth of purchases. If you click on the transaction number, it shows what you bought, how much you paid, and who you bought it from. So they can't tell what you were planning on buying, but they can see what you've bought previously. Not to mention anything that was in escrow when the site was seized.

There might be some opening for a class action suit against the us government here.

Coins that were in escrow and involved illegal drug operations could be seized by the us government if either the vendor or the client resides in the us. But btc sitting in wallets is another matter as that has not actually been involved in any illegal transaction so far.

Also, SR was used to do a lot of business outside the US. I'm quite sure the US is not entitled to simply seize the money that was, for example, used in a transaction between a seller from india and a client from europe.
First of all, that's not correct. I don't know where the servers were located, so I'm speaking hypothetically, but if they were located in the US, and you were buying products that were illegal in the US, they can seize your money. And if the servers were located in the US, they can freeze your account for suspected illegal activity, just they would do with an actual bank account at a US based bank.

Even if the servers weren't based in the US, if you're buying from US based vendors, you're violating US law, even if the products are legal in your home country. They are illegal to sell in the US.

And if you want to try bringing a class action lawsuit, you first have to get a judge to certify that you are in fact a class with standing to file a claim that is eligible for remedy/injunctive relief. I can tell you right now that that will never happen, especially since it's known that SOME of the activity was illegal. Not only that, but the courts are not going to take the time to sort out who was and who wasn't engaged in illegal activity.

The other problem with that is the anonymity involved. How are you going to prove that you own the coins or the btc address?

Second, who's going to stop them? You think they're going to give it back if another government were to ask nicely? I doubt it.

I suppose there will actually be legal proceedings over this, as many vendors have been involved in selling substances that are not illegal even in the US. This could include research chemicals, presciption (but unscheduled) drugs, and a whole range of other items.
It's illegal in the US to transfer ANY prescription medication to anyone other than the person to whom it was prescribed. It doesn't matter if it's scheduled or not. I can't legally give you an antibiotic that was prescribed to me. Granted, they're not going to prosecute you if you give someone an antibiotic, but it's still illegal. And for that matter, they aren't giving away the prescription drugs. They're being sold by a vendor who is not a registered pharmacist and who is not employed by a licensed pharmacy, which is mega illegal.

Some chemicals aren't necessarily illegal, but are restricted (like anhydrous ammonia for example), which would make buying them anonymously on SR would be illegal.

Plus add what I said above about actually being able to prove you own the coins and the account they are stored in. These aren't insured bank accounts. Most btc transactions are at your own risk.

Perhaps there are foreign vendors that have lost so much money in this process it would actually be worth pursuing legal action. For the average user with a couple of bitcoin illegally seized this is not feasible, but if you lost 1000 BTC whilst conducting business outside of the US it just might be.
I doubt it. They may up incurring more expenses in attorney fees and court costs than you had in coins. It's not cheap to file that kind of lawsuit. The US government and court system is not really going to be sympathetic. They'll say something to the effect of: You knew the site was used for illegal activity, you knew it was under investigation by the FBI/DEA, you knew it was vulnerable to attack, etc. and that therefore, you knew the risks you were assuming by storing your coins there, so too bad so sad.

NOTE: These are not my personal beliefs. I'm just telling you there's no way the government is giving anyone's coins back and that no US court would order them to.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: thcaddict on October 05, 2013, 06:50 am
How many people have u heard of getting their coin back?  I dont recall any option for setting an 'emergency address' for something of this magnitude.  i thought the site had something built in that would just send the BTC back to the original address that it was deposited from... but as of now I see no balances in any of the accounts ive tried.   lost about $1000 USD in escrow... and panicking for some way to possibly retrieve it.. i dont know about u guys.. but i cant afford to lose that kind of money

does anyone know of a thread dedicated to the people who lost their money?  or is it stupid to be coming out at this point claiming that we may have lost anything?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Hungry ghost on October 05, 2013, 07:34 am
Yes I had about 0.05 btc in my account that was excganged for fiat(non dollar) outside of US and never used for anything illegal. The US government has stolen from me!  This is worse than taxation. I will be writing them a strongly worded letter, of this you may be sure
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: comsec on October 05, 2013, 07:36 am
Did they actually get the wallet though?
Why would DPR plead innocent if they have the private keys.

They can now trace every single transaction and match it up to the private key, worse case scenario. I would imagine they have already subpoena'd a 2yr list from MtGox and every other major bitcoin exchange to match up addresses to names. Only for idiots who directly withdrew to a Mtgox, Campbx, Okpay, Coinbase account though without first laundering it through at least one middle address. They don't just forget about crimes, they busted a dozen hackers today for that 2010 Mastercard DDOS
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Dread on October 05, 2013, 08:24 am
Did they actually get the wallet though?
Why would DPR plead innocent if they have the private keys.

They can now trace every single transaction and match it up to the private key, worse case scenario. I would imagine they have already subpoena'd a 2yr list from MtGox and every other major bitcoin exchange to match up addresses to names. Only for idiots who directly withdrew to a Mtgox, Campbx, Okpay, Coinbase account though without first laundering it through at least one middle address. They don't just forget about crimes, they busted a dozen hackers today for that 2010 Mastercard DDOS
A dozen kids who instigated and directly participated in a successful DDoS attack against major corporations is a bit different than a million people around the world who bought various types of drugs through a website made by someone else. That would be a massive waste of time.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: ILikeYou on October 05, 2013, 03:41 pm
So are these addresses of everyone's deposit blockchain addresses? Cause then yes they have concrete addresses:

1GoBjB9hih7cB17RFTfeayC6RwNXPqrSgH
1H9WVMcRCcX7XTKmauk7uaZiJco45qQxgw
1MTq3T4MNJniSSMPgytvWbZLXR9NscUXLD
1JWsijJWfqRKaT22xAWiC7pgb4qT3KZtAt
1B6h6FU89VLtyXWuWY32g6euQrpmyXYvxn
1DgL13psKdshESQqVa9KL3W14dQbXoGaKc
1FdA6E9LEncfdobeYnjkq55YCkJtypsgsD
1JQyeHzV6TpRm4ySVj4Mkp2GHM8qtrb4TS
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1JwTTaiJSuViqB61b6v1PgPhKpbmM4peYD
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1PZ4rQufTb2VvMEgTmCQ42g3221J3rGH7j
1G4uQboWTU4GFw4K7xqRvmfXLpGsxq9fyU
1Dc7WXuC6cmkKRyXwegX5sq8UdFZErviX3
1DQaG4MAQ4ZyyrUnj4iRH7aPjP28aSs31Z
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Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: doctor w on October 05, 2013, 06:57 pm
Please someone hack it. If i knew how to i would.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Pax on October 05, 2013, 07:37 pm
If someone is able to hack this all I want is my 1 bitcoin back lol
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: dipset on October 05, 2013, 08:53 pm
Dear Obama/Eric Holder/DEA, et al: Please promptly return my 4 grand of btc in escrow, and the 500 in my SR wallet. I was doing nothing wrong, I promise. Thank you.   
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Rotaluc on October 05, 2013, 11:01 pm
How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?

Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?

They actually cannot. At least some of the BTC seized here were taken out of the wallets of SR users, and they were just sitting in their wallets. These users could have used them to purchase something perfectly legal in their or even US jurisdiction.

There might be some opening for a class action suit against the us government here.

Coins that were in escrow and involved illegal drug operations could be seized by the us government if either the vendor or the client resides in the us. But btc sitting in wallets is another matter as that has not actually been involved in any illegal transaction so far.

Also, SR was used to do a lot of business outside the US. I'm quite sure the US is not entitled to simply seize the money that was, for example, used in a transaction between a seller from india and a client from europe.

I suppose there will actually be legal proceedings over this, as many vendors have been involved in selling substances that are not illegal even in the US. This could include research chemicals, presciption (but unscheduled) drugs, and a whole range of other items.
Some of the prescription drugs on SR were cheaper (ya rly!) than those in the offical pharmacy in my country. For one product the generic product simply hasn't been approved (yet?) in my country (but in most other countries it has) and for another we can only buy 100mg pills while SR has 200mg pills for less. Little competition because the product is not prescribed very much.

Unless the police comes to my door to check if I've got a prescription, they got squat..
 
In the UK, you are free (by law) to import a 3-month supply of medication without any prescription, if you've ordered abroad. Also there was quite some legal stuff on SR: books, packing material and OTC drugs like cetirizine.

I'm glad my account was empty, but otherwise the feds would have my money. And I'm not even a US citizen, but from just looking at my account, there's no way to tell.

So the US has simply stolen a lot of money from people outside their jurisdiction.. And guess what, they don't even care. The best thing they could do is to actually use the emergency-refund addresses and setting up a website for anyone who didn't enter any to claim their bitcoins back that were on their balance (not in escrow).

Essentially this is just another nail in the coffin for me for any kind of faith in our legal system. And when I say "our", I mean the world. I've seen judges, police and politicians, drenched in corruption, all wiping their buttocks with the trias politica.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Ben on October 06, 2013, 01:11 am
Getting your prescription drugs through SR is an excellent example. If you do not live in the US, and the vendor doesn't either, and it is legal to import those drugs in your country, and it is legal to export them from the country the vendor resides in, how is the US involved in that?

There is no way users could have known that SR was based in or operated from the US. The .onion extension does not reveal any country of origin (like a .us address might). Nowhere on the site was it mentioned this fell under US jurisdiction, so it would be very hard to prove that users should have been aware of that.

Consider how this would work the other way around: Lets say SR was based in Iran, where the sale of alcohol is illegal. As a US user you ordered some nice beer from belgium, but the iranian government took down the site and took your money in escrow because the server was based there, without you even knowing so.

There is no law that prohibits selling beer from belgium to the US, although you may have to pay import duties on it - as long as the vendor declares the content on the customs label that will all be okay and perfectly legal. Would it be fair for your money to be seized in such a transaction only because the platform you used, without your knowledge, was based in iran? 

Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Rotaluc on October 06, 2013, 01:51 am
Getting your prescription drugs through SR is an excellent example. If you do not live in the US, and the vendor doesn't either, and it is legal to import those drugs in your country, and it is legal to export them from the country the vendor resides in, how is the US involved in that?
But even if you did live in the US.. How do the feds know you weren't planning on ordering prescription drugs and you actually do have a prescription? The FBI appears to consider every SR user guilty until proven innocent..

For example, Atomoxetine costs about $280/month here. For most people, that's a lot of money. I've heard from people getting in trouble because of this, because our praised health care system doesn't cover it. Not at all.

I can't search SR for it anymore, but IOP's sell the same dose for roughly $57. (when you buy a 3-month supply)

If my doc prescribed me this, I wouldn't consider for a single second to buy them here. (I would reconsider if it was lifesaving medication, but most medication really isn't lifesaving..) I would either refuse the medication completely or buy generics online.

And I'd rather buy from SR with it's escrow system than buy from some "pay and pray" IOP.
Quote
There is no way users could have known that SR was based in or operated from the US. The .onion extension does not reveal any country of origin (like a .us address might). Nowhere on the site was it mentioned this fell under US jurisdiction, so it would be very hard to prove that users should have been aware of that.

Consider how this would work the other way around: Lets say SR was based in Iran, where the sale of alcohol is illegal. As a US user you ordered some nice beer from belgium, but the iranian government took down the site and took your money in escrow because the server was based there, without you even knowing so.

There is no law that prohibits selling beer from belgium to the US, although you may have to pay import duties on it - as long as the vendor declares the content on the customs label that will all be okay and perfectly legal. Would it be fair for your money to be seized in such a transaction only because the platform you used, without your knowledge, was based in iran?
From a legal perspective, it's absolutely correct. In reality, governments just lie, steal and spread propaganda.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: metacontxt on October 06, 2013, 04:13 am
Your business didn't have an American connection? It may not matter. Take a look at the Lacey Act:

"(a) Offenses other than marking offenses
It is unlawful for any person—
(1) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase any fish or wildlife or plant taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law, treaty, or regulation of the United States or in violation of any Indian tribal law;
(2) to import, export, transport, sell, receive, acquire, or purchase in interstate or foreign commerce—
(A) any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law;
(B) any plant—
(i) taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State, or any foreign law, that protects plants or that regulates—
(I) the theft of plants;
(II) the taking of plants from a park, forest reserve, or other officially protected area;
(III) the taking of plants from an officially designated area; or
(IV) the taking of plants without, or contrary to, required authorization;
(ii) taken, possessed, transported, or sold without the payment of appropriate royalties, taxes, or stumpage fees required for the plant by any law or regulation of any State or any foreign law; or
(iii) taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any limitation under any law or regulation of any State, or under any foreign law, governing the export or transshipment of plants; or
(C) any prohibited wildlife species (subject to subsection (e) of this section);
(3) within the special maritime and territorial jurisdiction of the United States (as defined in section 7 of title 18)—
(A) to possess any fish or wildlife taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State or in violation of any foreign law or Indian tribal law, or
(B) to possess any plant—
(i) taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any law or regulation of any State, or any foreign law, that protects plants or that regulates—
(I) the theft of plants;
(II) the taking of plants from a park, forest reserve, or other officially protected area;
(III) the taking of plants from an officially designated area; or
(IV) the taking of plants without, or contrary to, required authorization;
(ii) taken, possessed, transported, or sold without the payment of appropriate royalties, taxes, or stumpage fees required for the plant by any law or regulation of any State or any foreign law; or
(iii) taken, possessed, transported, or sold in violation of any limitation under any law or regulation of any State, or under any foreign law, governing the export or transshipment of plants; or
(4) to attempt to commit any act described in paragraphs (1) through (3). "

Got it? So let's say it's illegal in some random country to harvest snails for some weird reason. Under the Lacey Act, an American could be prosecuted because their kid finds a snail in the garden and puts it in a jar, gives it to you to look after while they go pee. At that point, the cops could bust down your door and prosecute you for violating the Lacey Act.

Point is, the Feds can generally get you on something if they want to.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Rotaluc on October 06, 2013, 01:55 pm
If you haven't already, you would probably find http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc (Don't talk to police) an amusing video. At 6:16 he also talks about the Lacey act.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 06, 2013, 04:11 pm
How can the FBI tell that u used btc for an illegal transaction?
Could we not all band together and strenghten a lawsuit against them for stealing our coins ?
They actually cannot. At least some of the BTC seized here were taken out of the wallets of SR users, and they were just sitting in their wallets. These users could have used them to purchase something perfectly legal in their or even US jurisdiction.
There might be some opening for a class action suit against the us government here.
Coins that were in escrow and involved illegal drug operations could be seized by the us government if either the vendor or the client resides in the us. But btc sitting in wallets is another matter as that has not actually been involved in any illegal transaction so far.

Yes, there is no evidence that coins sitting in wallets were intended to be used illegally. Some people, such as shocky and incubusdriver, were selling perfectly legal services. The coins in my wallet were, once topped up by a loan repayment, to be donated to a Spanish doctor for the extraordinary work he's been doing in harm reduction (by sending legitimate words to a forum)[*].

Your business didn't have an American connection? It may not matter. Take a look at the Lacey Act:

Hmmm... That law still only seems to apply to persons under U.S. jurisdiction (even if the law they're breaking is foreign).

[*] I have now done this more directly from my external wallet.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: 7Kz2 on October 06, 2013, 05:24 pm
I lost like a $1 I was going to use to buy a legal ebook
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Mr Lucy on October 06, 2013, 06:05 pm
This whole SR seize is equivalent to the US government seizing all funds from a national bank because some people decided to use the bank to transfer their drug money across the country -_- Because some people do illegal stuff, everyone must be punished and lose their hard earned money.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 06, 2013, 08:27 pm
I suppose there will actually be legal proceedings over this, as many vendors have been involved in selling substances that are not illegal even in the US. This could include research chemicals, presciption (but unscheduled) drugs, and a whole range of other items.

Some of the prescription drugs on SR were cheaper (ya rly!) than those in the offical pharmacy in my country. For one product the generic product simply hasn't been approved (yet?) in my country (but in most other countries it has) and for another we can only buy 100mg pills while SR has 200mg pills for less. Little competition because the product is not prescribed very much.

Unless the police comes to my door to check if I've got a prescription, they got squat..
 
In the UK, you are free (by law) to import a 3-month supply of medication without any prescription, if you've ordered abroad. Also there was quite some legal stuff on SR: books, packing material and OTC drugs like cetirizine.
Well, it may very well be legal to import these drugs to the UK, but it's illegal to buy them without a prescription in the US and it's also illegal in the US for the vendor to dispense an Rx without being a registered/licensed pharmacist. So unless your vendor has completed a 6-year pharmacy degree program, is licensed by their state government, and you have a prescription from a licensed US physician, it's illegal to buy/sell them in the US. You're prescription from a foreign doctor who is not licensed to practice medicine in the US is invalid. You're violating US law.

And certirizine is different entirely because it is OTC in the US. You can buy as much of it as you like from just about anywhere in the US EXCEPT for SR. SR is not considered to be a legitimate business on any level. They're operating without a business license, they aren't reporting their sales, and, most importantly, they don't pay taxes to the US on that revenue. That's why the IRS and Treasury were involved in this (it's not just the money laundering -- just about any US drug dealer, whether in IRL or on SR is in violation of the US tax code -- they are guilty of tax evasion because, in theory, you have to report and pay taxes on your sales. Not to mention state sales and income taxes.)

That said, I doubt they're coming after you or anyone else in a similar situation. But the US has a zero tolerance poicy on prescription drug violations given the explosion of opioids and amphetamines as recreational drugs. This is more worrisome if you're a US citizen or a vendor though.

I'm glad my account was empty, but otherwise the feds would have my money. And I'm not even a US citizen, but from just looking at my account, there's no way to tell.

So the US has simply stolen a lot of money from people outside their jurisdiction.. And guess what, they don't even care. The best thing they could do is to actually use the emergency-refund addresses and setting up a website for anyone who didn't enter any to claim their bitcoins back that were on their balance (not in escrow).
That's a very good point; they have no way of knowing which country is your home country unless they've identified you.  First, it doesn't matter if you're a citizen or not. You are violating US law.

This is all hypothetical because I don't believe you're actually at risk; but, second, not only do the US and the UK have a mutual law enforcement agreement, but they also have a fast-track extradition treaty, so you could be extradited to the US quickly.

And for the record, as I said above, for many reasons, the US government doesn't recognize SR as a legitimate business. Most of it's sales were in violation of the US laws. It's no different than the US seizing a bank account for SUSPECTED illegal activity or tax evasion. And as you very astutely point out, they don't know 'who' was doing 'what' 'where'. In other words, they don't know of which country you are a citizen. Plus, if you were careful about transferring your money to SR, then you'd have a very hard time proving that you actually own the account. And even if you were, you're going to associate yourself with your SR account and enable them to take a look at your recent purchases.

While they probably wouldn't come after you if you were to keep your mouth shut, they would if you made an issue of it publicly. They'd use you to set an example. And to reiterate for the 3rd time for emphasis, SR is not a "legal" US marketplace in any sense of the word.

I'm not supporting the government here. I disagree with them seizing all of those coins. I'm simply outlining some faulty assumptions that people are making about SR. I'm no fan of the feds.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 06, 2013, 08:46 pm
Getting your prescription drugs through SR is an excellent example. If you do not live in the US, and the vendor doesn't either, and it is legal to import those drugs in your country, and it is legal to export them from the country the vendor resides in, how is the US involved in that?
If the traffic is at all routed through the US using US infrastructure, they get you on "technically" operating within the US.

There is no way users could have known that SR was based in or operated from the US. The .onion extension does not reveal any country of origin (like a .us address might). Nowhere on the site was it mentioned this fell under US jurisdiction, so it would be very hard to prove that users should have been aware of that.
Mistake of fact and mistake of law (e.g. I didn't know it was based in the US or illegal there) is not a valid legal defense in the US. That is a fact that you can look up, not me speculating. They don't need to show that you were aware of anything.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 06, 2013, 10:00 pm
Getting your prescription drugs through SR is an excellent example. If you do not live in the US, and the vendor doesn't either, and it is legal to import those drugs in your country, and it is legal to export them from the country the vendor resides in, how is the US involved in that?
But even if you did live in the US.. How do the feds know you weren't planning on ordering prescription drugs and you actually do have a prescription? The FBI appears to consider every SR user guilty until proven innocent..
You don't understand, you're still breaking the law in that example. They consider you guilty because you are, in fact, guilty of violating the Controlled Substances Act. And they know whether or not you have a prescription because pharmacies are required to retain the actual prescription

Was silk road a licensed pharmacy? Was you're vendor a pharmacist? And did SR have a valid business license and pay income taxes to the IRS on its revenue?

And if you are a US citizen and you're vendor is based in a foreign country, then you're breaking another US law. Individuals are not permited to import prescription drugs. It's illegal for any US citizen to purchase prescription drugs by mail-order from a pharmacy that is not licensed by the US government (Most IOPs are illegal. It can be a pharmacy that has international business, but they still have to be licensed to do business in the US -- and the drugs have to be shipped domestically). We're technically not legally allowed to cross the border into Canada or Mexico to purchase prescriptions with the intent to import those drugs to the US. If discovered by customs at the border, the drugs would be confiscated. Only pharmaceutical manufacturers/distributors are permitted to import drugs (and usually they're manufactured by the importing company's foreign factories/subsidiaries).

For example, Atomoxetine costs about $280/month here. For most people, that's a lot of money. I've heard from people getting in trouble because of this, because our praised health care system doesn't cover it. Not at all.

I can't search SR for it anymore, but IOP's sell the same dose for roughly $57. (when you buy a 3-month supply)

If my doc prescribed me this, I wouldn't consider for a single second to buy them here. (I would reconsider if it was lifesaving medication, but most medication really isn't lifesaving..) I would either refuse the medication completely or buy generics online.

And I'd rather buy from SR with it's escrow system than buy from some "pay and pray" IOP.

Unfortunately, the US government does not care that your medication is expensive for a number of reasons. First, as you point out, Strattera  is not a "life-saving medication." Second, for medications that are "life-saving," most US pharmaceutical companies have special programs for the uninsured or those who cannot afford their medication. The government also issues grants to cover certain medications for the uninsured. For example, say you are HIV positive and either are uninsured or can't afford your prescription co-pays. The government issues block grants to pay for those medications that are administered by the states. Additionally, the drug companies themselves have programs for the individuals with chronic illnesses that offer their drugs at very sharp discounts.

But we still can't travel to Mexico and bring drugs back into the US, despite them being MUCH cheaper. There was a proposal that was debated when they passed the Affordable Care Act to allow Americans to import drugs, but it never was enacted. It's still illegal.

There is no way users could have known that SR was based in or operated from the US. The .onion extension does not reveal any country of origin (like a .us address might). Nowhere on the site was it mentioned this fell under US jurisdiction, so it would be very hard to prove that users should have been aware of that.
Yeah that doesn't fly legally. Don't believe me? Try it. And most pharmacies are .com anyway. You'd know that they were licensed to do business in the US because it'd generally say so on the website.

Consider how this would work the other way around: Lets say SR was based in Iran, where the sale of alcohol is illegal. As a US user you ordered some nice beer from belgium, but the iranian government took down the site and took your money in escrow because the server was based there, without you even knowing so.

There is no law that prohibits selling beer from belgium to the US, although you may have to pay import duties on it - as long as the vendor declares the content on the customs label that will all be okay and perfectly legal. Would it be fair for your money to be seized in such a transaction only because the platform you used, without your knowledge, was based in iran?
Iran is an interesting example (and probably not the best to illustrate this point) because anyone caught doing business in Iran is subject to heavy fines/penalties due to current sanctions (and not just by the US, by the EU too) and would be subject to having there bank accounts frozen. Besides, you, in most cases, know where the vendor is based, even if you don't know where the site is based.

From a legal perspective, it's absolutely correct. In reality, governments just lie, steal and spread propaganda.
From a legal perspective, this is completely incorrect. The Iranian government in that example would have the right to confiscate your funds because you are violating Iranian law within Iran's borders. The illegality stems from the sale within that country, not the laws of the country to which it's being imported. It doesn't matter that's it's legal to import alcohol to Belgium; it's illegal to sell/buy it in Iran, which is what you're doing whether you know it or not. 

Look up mistake of law and mistake of fact. In the US at least (I don't know shit about Iranian law), mistake of law and mistake of fact aren't valid legal defenses. Everyone would just say, "well gee, I didn't know that was illegal" when charged with a crime. Excluding common law, which is not what's being discussed here, US laws are codified and published. If you choose not to read/research them, then shame on you (according to the US legal system).

Also, you're glossing over laws regarding importation, customs declaration, licensure, etc. Is your vendor declaring that there are prescription drugs in the shipment? No, because they'd be seized for the reasons listed above. Are you/they in compliance with the Controlled Substances Act? No for reasons I've stated in this post and others on this thread.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: Rotaluc on October 07, 2013, 02:33 pm
Quote
Well, it may very well be legal to import these drugs to the UK, but it's illegal to buy them without a prescription in the US
I wasn't talking about the US here. What if a UK citizen buys medication from an Indian pharmacy on SR? What the buyer does is completely legal here. I don't know about the seller (no idea what Indian law is), but it doesn't really matter: the point is that in this very plausible case, it's not justified for any government to steal the money from the buyer.

This also applies if the money was just on balance: exactly this could have been the intention of the buyer and it wouldn't be fair to take his money away because there are also listings for illicit goods on SR.

Quote
This is all hypothetical because I don't believe you're actually at risk; but, second, not only do the US and the UK have a mutual law enforcement agreement, but they also have a fast-track extradition treaty, so you could be extradited to the US quickly.
I'm not a UK citizen either!

Quote
Plus, if you were careful about transferring your money to SR, then you'd have a very hard time proving that you actually own the account. And even if you were, you're going to associate yourself with your SR account and enable them to take a look at your recent purchases.
I have the password to the account, obviously. If you would have bought exclusively legal things (or never ordered and only had money on balance) there should be no danger asking your money back.

Quote
If the traffic is at all routed through the US using US infrastructure, they get you on "technically" operating within the US.
The servers were not in the US? And nobody knows where tor routes your request, so if a UK citizen buys something from an Indian vendor and tor doesn't route the order through any US node and the server is not in the US either, how does this give the feds the right to steal someone's money?

Quote
From a legal perspective, this is completely incorrect. The Iranian government in that example would have the right to confiscate your funds because you are violating Iranian law within Iran's borders. The illegality stems from the sale within that country, not the laws of the country to which it's being imported. It doesn't matter that's it's legal to import alcohol to Belgium; it's illegal to sell/buy it in Iran, which is what you're doing whether you know it or not.
Well.. What if servers were placed in various countries and users were randomly connected to any server (never routing all users through a single country), and the servers all synchronize and don't keep logs?

Now nobody knows in what country any specific order was placed, so none of the countries could seize the money, yes?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 07, 2013, 07:59 pm
Quote
Well, it may very well be legal to import these drugs to the UK, but it's illegal to buy them without a prescription in the US
I wasn't talking about the US here. What if a UK citizen buys medication from an Indian pharmacy on SR? What the buyer does is completely legal here. I don't know about the seller (no idea what Indian law is), but it doesn't really matter: the point is that in this very plausible case, it's not justified for any government to steal the money from the buyer.

This also applies if the money was just on balance: exactly this could have been the intention of the buyer and it wouldn't be fair to take his money away because there are also listings for illicit goods on SR.

Quote
This is all hypothetical because I don't believe you're actually at risk; but, second, not only do the US and the UK have a mutual law enforcement agreement, but they also have a fast-track extradition treaty, so you could be extradited to the US quickly.
I'm not a UK citizen either!
I'm going to give you a very thorough response because you raise valid points; I want to explain why, however, you are mistaken.This is nothing personal, and while I don't disagree with your theories hypothetically, all of the above is irrelevant. You're speaking in very unlikely scenarios. You mentioned the UK, so I used that as an example. The fact is, if based in the US, SR itself was an illegal business no matter what it sold. All businesses have to be licensed and pay taxes (excluding non-profits, but they still need to be registered/licensed -- and we all know SR wasn't a non-profit). I'd bet money that your home country has an extradition agreement with the US.

And you're also excluding the fact that you'd need to file a civil lawsuit in the US Court of Federal Claims in DC. The filing fee is 400 USD. And while you can file a suit pro se (i.e. sans attorney) and can do so without ever being present in the US, you're probably going to need the help of an attorney since you're not familiar with US law. That's no even remotely cheap, particularly for civil suits; you might be able to find a lawyer to represent you on a contingency, but that still eats away at your money. Is the amount that large enough to warrant a lawsuit? The FBI has already said that the coins will not be returned, so you'd have to sue the government.

Quote
Plus, if you were careful about transferring your money to SR, then you'd have a very hard time proving that you actually own the account. And even if you were, you're going to associate yourself with your SR account and enable them to take a look at your recent purchases.
I have the password to the account, obviously. If you would have bought exclusively legal things (or never ordered and only had money on balance) there should be no danger asking your money back.
So what? First of all, do you want them digging into your transaction history? Do you want your real identity to be linked to your SR account? They'd require identification, and yes, you could use a fake, but this is the hornets nest that you're poking at. If we're talking about servers based in the US, you're going to be arrested for breaking US law. You normally wouldn't be, but if you're going to make a public fuss, they're going to arrest you. Plus, IF they've got an image of the server from July that enables them to view individual accounts (not sure if they can), then they've got not only your purchases from September and October, but also June and July.

What I'm trying to say here is that the US government will consider you complicit in any crimes that occurred; they don't care where you're from. Remember that those so-called "legal purchases" you've made are funding an illegal operation (think: Silk Road itself was supported by transaction fees).

Second, so what that you've got the password? Most people in the US are aware that passwords can be cracked. That's like me demanding the money in a bank account because I have the routing and account numbers. Can you prove that you own the coins themselves? Or the account? And how? Did you keep a paper trail? They'd require you to show how you came to possess the coins. Signing up for SR is completely anonymous. It's like having a numbered account in CH (which isn't legal in the US). If, as you say in your example, you'd never bought anything or that everything you've bought was legal, then there's no reason not to keep records of your transactions.

Finally, again, SR WAS NOT a legal US business in the US no matter what they sold. You cannot operate a for profit marketplace without being subject to regulations and tax laws. You're not buying from the vendor directly; SR is taking a cut as a middleman. You're paying them; that's what makes it illegal. If this were a completely private transaction taking place, say, by email, then you'd be right. That's why NO ONE is going to get ANY money back, regardless of what they did or didn't buy or where they live.

Quote
If the traffic is at all routed through the US using US infrastructure, they get you on "technically" operating within the US.
The servers were not in the US? And nobody knows where tor routes your request, so if a UK citizen buys something from an Indian vendor and tor doesn't route the order through any US node and the server is not in the US either, how does this give the feds the right to steal someone's money?

Quote
From a legal perspective, this is completely incorrect. The Iranian government in that example would have the right to confiscate your funds because you are violating Iranian law within Iran's borders. The illegality stems from the sale within that country, not the laws of the country to which it's being imported. It doesn't matter that's it's legal to import alcohol to Belgium; it's illegal to sell/buy it in Iran, which is what you're doing whether you know it or not.
Well.. What if servers were placed in various countries and users were randomly connected to any server (never routing all users through a single country), and the servers all synchronize and don't keep logs?

Now nobody knows in what country any specific order was placed, so none of the countries could seize the money, yes?
Assuming the vendor was not US based, as I've said in several replies in this thread, you're basing your defense on mistake of law and mistake of fact, both of which are invalid as legal defenses in the US. In other words, ignorance is not a valid defense. And it doesn't matter ultimately because SR was an illegal, black market business by its very design alone (in terms of US law). That's all that matters. It was allegedly run by a US citizen residing in the US. They know exactly where the servers were because they have a mutual enforcement treaty with the country(s) where they were located. So let's say the servers weren't in the US: the country in which they were located has a mutual law enforcement treaty with the US. Usually these treaties allow for each country to refuse to comply based on certain conditions. So that country apparently considered the activity to be illegal.

I'll use Switzerland, France, and Hong Kong as three examples. The US has been unable to extradite American citizens guilty of tax evasion because it's not a crime in CH (unless it's fraud). They have to go after Swiss banks that conduct business in US instead. The US has a very difficult time extraditing people from France (Ira Einhorn was charged with murder and it took over 20 years to get him extradicted, largely due to the death penalty in the US -- they had to snag Roman Polanski in CH -- they tried for 20-some odd years to get him from France -- and CH released him ultimately). More recently, Hong Kong refused to extradite Edward Snowden because they considered his acts a public service and it was political (this one's slightly more complicated since we don't have a treaty with China). We have extradition treaties with FR, CH, and HK; they chose not to comply. In this case, whatever country it was, agreed to cooperate. So wherever the servers were, SR may have been illegal there too.

For what it's worth, I haven't heard a huge outcry from the governments of the UK, the EU, CH, the UK, or even India to use your example.

And to be honest, it's pretty easy to determine the country of your IP address, even if your IP is dynamic. I want to make clear once more that these are NOT my personal views.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: KushDepot on October 07, 2013, 08:48 pm
Looks like an additional 253 BTC were added today. Hopefully it's not from vendors who got raided.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: unbiased on October 07, 2013, 11:55 pm
Looks like an additional 253 BTC were added today. Hopefully it's not from vendors who got raided.

Auto-finalize is a bitch.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: DopeSneaky on October 08, 2013, 12:46 am
So when and where can we expect to get our money back? I don't see any law that says it's forbidden to stash my bitcoins on SR's servers.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 08, 2013, 09:20 pm
So when and where can we expect to get our money back? I don't see any law that says it's forbidden to stash my bitcoins on SR's servers.
<sigh> You chose to store your coins on an illegal marketplace. It's not illegal because of what they sold, it's illegal because it's unlicensed and pays no taxes on it's revenue.

You're not going to get them back by asking. If you want your money back, you can file a suit in the US Court of Federal Claims against the FBI/government. The FBI has already stated they're not giving them back. This isn't helping you.

FWIW, I lost money too; but I'm not linking my real identity with my SR account to do that.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: DopeSneaky on October 12, 2013, 03:10 am
So when and where can we expect to get our money back? I don't see any law that says it's forbidden to stash my bitcoins on SR's servers.
<sigh> You chose to store your coins on an illegal marketplace. It's not illegal because of what they sold, it's illegal because it's unlicensed and pays no taxes on it's revenue.

You're not going to get them back by asking. If you want your money back, you can file a suit in the US Court of Federal Claims against the FBI/government. The FBI has already stated they're not giving them back. This isn't helping you.

FWIW, I lost money too; but I'm not linking my real identity with my SR account to do that.

What if I don't live in the US?
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 12, 2013, 07:05 pm
So when and where can we expect to get our money back? I don't see any law that says it's forbidden to stash my bitcoins on SR's servers.
<sigh> You chose to store your coins on an illegal marketplace. It's not illegal because of what they sold, it's illegal because it's unlicensed and pays no taxes on it's revenue.

You're not going to get them back by asking. If you want your money back, you can file a suit in the US Court of Federal Claims against the FBI/government. The FBI has already stated they're not giving them back. This isn't helping you.

FWIW, I lost money too; but I'm not linking my real identity with my SR account to do that.

What if I don't live in the US?
Again, this isn't my personal postion; I'm giving you the rationale behind the seizure and the procedure to reclaim them

You're coins are in the US whether you're a citizen or not. They've been seized by the government because they were stored in a wallet on an "illegal" business run by an American citizen. They've already said they're not refunding ANY coins. Demanding them will get you nowhere; You cannot reason with the FBI. They won't even listen to your argument.

SO, you can(for 400 USD) file a lawsuit against the US government in the US Court of Federal Claims (which is the only court for suits seeking money damages against the US government.

If you lost enough to justify the cost, then go for it. But, you're going to have to link your SR and IRL identities, so that's up to you. Even if you prevailed in court (which is unlikely), you still have to prove that you own the coins. If you want to go through all of that, be my guest. You don't ever have to set foot in the US to do have your suit heard.
Title: Re: FBI/US Governments Silk Road Seized Bitcoin Wallet
Post by: ondine on October 13, 2013, 05:22 am
Right,

once you transferred the coins into your silkroad wallet they stopped being yours and technically became the property of whoever was running the site. it is unfair but there's really no legal precedent for anyone to get their btc back