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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: demsone on December 02, 2011, 04:52 am

Title: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: demsone on December 02, 2011, 04:52 am
Ok i got my pills last week and took 2 of them on the weekened. Awesome pills and all that but i keep having bad comedowns and what is called "eccy tuesday" where 2 days after i feel like complete crap, down and my serotonin levels are low. I can't handle it and makes me all bitter and angry.

So what do you peeps take for the comedown? I usually keep smoking weed until i put myself to sleep or take a few sedatives. But i still get the bad come downs.

Advice?

Thanks.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: UeXtation on December 02, 2011, 05:42 am
The hard truth is MDMA does wreck your brain to an as yet unknown degree - you should not take it every weekend, unless your ok with losing brain cells. It is a drug over 100 years old now so it wasn't really design at all for the way its used now.

Best option try for 3 -4 times a year, hard I know. If you maintain that you will not lose the 'magic'

If you are more regular with usage try  an example diet pre/post loading scheme to protect your brain (from another forum) (5-htp is not the only helpful thing) :

1. Melatonin
Description: Powerful antioxidant and a good sleep regulator

Dosage: 3mg sublingual post usage

2. Quercetin
Description: one of my favourite supplements inhibits enzyme CYP3A4, one a few enzymes responsible for the breakdown of MDMA, therefore potentiates MDMA. It exerts potent antioxidant activity and vitamin C-sparing action.
COMT Inhibitor
MAO-B Inhibitor

Dosage: One capsule, it’s wise to take with Vitamin C and/or with other antioxidants


3. Ascorbyl Palmitate
Description: Fat Soluble Vitamin C, lasts in the body a lot longer than normal vitamin C and it has better antioxidant properties

Dosage: 2000mg before Stimulant usage, it is advised to take it with food to enhance absorption

4. Milk Thistle
Description: Liver protecting supplement

Dosage: This is something you should take every day, it protects liver and restores it back to optimal health

5. Magnesium
Description: Reduces tolerance, Reduces jaw clenching whilst on MDMA and a overall muscle relaxant

Dosage: Everyday, 400mg

Note: Take chelate form of magnesium, none of the bullshit Oxide and other forms, they have terrible bio-availability.

6. Piracetam
Description: Another must get supplement, Modulates Serotonin and dopamine receptors, Enhances neurotransmission, Anti Oxidant, and also potentiates all stimulants. Makes your peak feel more clean

Dosage: 3200mg before stimulant and after

7. 5-HTP
Description: Precursor to Serotonin, increases serotonin levels

Dosage: 100mg x 3 post MDMA usage. Do not take it for more than 5 days in a row without dopamine precursors; otherwise it will cause depletion of dopamine – take with Green Tea

8. Green Tea extracts (EGCG)
Description: Another MUST GET supplement, VERY POWERFUL antioxidant, 200x more than Vitamin E. COMT Inhibitor which is one of the many enzymes responsible for the breakdown of MDMA. It is also a Decarboxylase inhibitor so it potentiates 5-htp and l-dopa

Dosage: Take with 5-htp so that 5-htp gets converted to serotonin in the brain and not in your gut, also before MDMA usage for potentiation and powerful antioxidant activity. Dose: 300mg of 40% EGCG extract

9. Vitamin C
Description: Anti oxidant

Dosage: 3000mg pre stimulant, 2000mg x 4 the next day. Take with EGCG and other anti oxidant

10. Deprenyl (Selegiline)
Description: MAO-B inhibitor, not to be mistaken with ordinary MAOI's. it reduces cardiovascular toxicity, inhibits formation of peroxides in the brain. inhibits Dopamine metabolism. it may revive dead neurons in the brain. it may reverse neurotoxicity. It is even said it inhibits neurotoxicity from METH use.

Dosage: 2.5mg with food 1 hour before MDMA usage

11. Taurine
Description: General cellular health supplement, its a amino acid as well as a neuromodulator. Its a neuroprotector and regulates Calcium ions in the brain. its also a great anti-anxiety agent

Dosage: 1500mg before food a day

12. L-Theanine
Description: Glutamate receptor antagonist (AMPA, Kainate, NMDA), Dopamine releaser, Enhances focus, mood, and memory. reduces anxiety and nervousness

Dosage: 200mg per dose. good relaxant post mdma usage and pre

13. Acetyl-L-Carnitine Arginate
Description: NGF agent (nerve growth factor) stimulates the growth of neurites in the brain. it MAY reverse neurotoxicity and protect the brain from peroxynitrites (very potent neurotoxin that causes harsh oxidative stress)

Dosage: 2000mg a day of Ordinary Acetyl-l-Carnitine, or 800mg of Arginate form. its a good idea to have a combination of both as they work together

Note: Arginate is fairly expensive but it is a lot more potent and beneficial, otherwise you can just get the normal Acetyl-L-Carnitine

14. L-Dopa
Description: like 5-htp, its a direct precursor to Dopamine, a lot better than tyrosine.

Dosage: Take in morning before food with Green Tea, 200mg. its a good idea if your taking 5-htp at night to have this the following morning for optimal neurotransmitter levels.

Note: DO NOT TAKE for atleast 24 hours after MDMA usage as the excess dopamine may get trapped by SERTS that have been activated by MDMA and cause oxidative stress.


15. Inositol
Description: Regulates serotonin, Calcium Ion concentration control, which means controls build up of tolerance to amphetamines. also increases REM activity during sleep

Dosage: 1000-2000mg a day, usually before sleep.


16. Fish Oil
Description: Contains Omega 3 fatty acids that has numerous health benefits, one of which supports vascular health, dopamine transmission and etc

Dosage: depending on what brand you got, since they all have different concentrations. i take about 4-6 fish oil capsules a day (EPA:400mg DHA:200mg in each capsule) with food


17. Alpha lipoic acid
Description: Very effective antioxidant, passes through the blood brain barrier more efficently that most other Anti oxidants.

Dosage: Pre: 300mg, during: 600mg, post: 300mg x 3

Note: there are many forms, such as stablized ones that cost a fortune. up to you which you pick. they all work the same except one would be more potent then the other. - the dosage above is for the ordinary Alpha lipoic acid


18. Tianeptine (Selective Serotonin Reuptake Enchancer)
Description: a very unique Anti depressant that works opposite to SSRI's, instead of inhibiting the uptake of serotonin back to the pre-synapse it enhances it. meaning it increases your overall serotonin storage rather than aiding its depletion that SSRI's do...

Dosage: recommended 12.5mg 3x a day, there is been a report with someone taking 240 tablets a day for several months and was later successfully detoxified.

Note: this will probably work better than anything to increase your "true" serotonin levels long term and restore them to optimal levels. this is the most worth while drug to take but its precription only. apparently its legal to import without.


19. Ginkgo
Description: Days after MDMA usage, elevated levels of MAO activity in the brain are present, this further causes depletion of Serotonin and also Noradrenaline, thus lethargy and loss of motivation,

Ginkgo works as mild MAO Inhibitor as well as increases blood flow to the brain

Dosage: 200mg x 2 daily Post MDMA anf following days


20. Methyl Donors (Betaine, aka TMG, aka TriMethylGlycine)
Description: Increased Methylation via Methyl donors have shown to increase neurotransmittor levels, Methylation aids in the production of SAM-e, which is the building block of serotonin, dopamine and noradrealine.

Dosage: 500-1000mg Daily


Cat's Claw
Description: Powerful MAO-B inhibitor, similar to Quercetin and Deprenyl

Dosage: 2 capsule of NOW brand "5000" formula of Cat's Claw 1 hour before MDMA usage and 2 after.. though dosage has to be modified if your taking Quercetin and/or Deprenyl with it

GABA Powder
Description:Promotes Relaxation, Ease sleep days after MDMA usage or just in general. It Inhibits overstimulation caused by excessive neurotransmitter release.

Dosage: 1-2g when needed


will keep updating .....



Antioxidant Note
Remember, Antioxidants always work together synergetically. Once a antioxidant supplement does its job, it turns to the oxidated form which becomes useless. in presence of another antioxidant, it is recycled....

Sources :

[1]Guide to Neurotransmitter depletion
- http://neuroassist.com/Depletion1.htm
- Explains everything about how giving precursors to neurotransmitters depletes other neurotransmitters and how the only way to correct neurotransmitter levels is to take both dopamine and serotonin precursors and not just the one
- also explains how SSRI's cause long term depression and serious depletion of serotonin

[2]Green Tea Polyphenols: Novel Irreversible Inhibitors of Dopa Decarboxylase
- http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...7f770b73b9e269

[3]Dr Bob, View on Magnesium and amphetamine tolerance.
- http://www.dr-bob.org/babble/20081016/msgs/858452.html

[4]Information on Acety-l-Carnitine and health benefits
- http://www.vrp.com/articles.aspx?ProdID=art2256&zTYPE=2
- http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19015003
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: madamebradley on December 02, 2011, 05:49 am
I hear the supplement 5-HTP is beneficial in restoring depleted levels of the neurotransmitter Serotonin. You can pick up 5-HTP at most health food stores.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: gumby on December 02, 2011, 05:51 am
Eat right and get sleep. Exercise as well. I have never experienced a comedown.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: quinone on December 02, 2011, 07:20 am
A valium if you really need it and just sleep it off, but like gumby said ... healthy life, healthy mind (well I said that, but you know what i'm saying :D).

MDMA is not as toxic to your brain as UeXtation says it is.  A German team studying MDMA in 2002 using radiolabelled fMRI (H-H NMR) discovered that it only reduces your brains 5-HT levels by about 5% and only for about 24 hours, after which your brain quickly rebalances itself, it's just that it takes very small changes to cause large emotional effects, that's why so many people suffer from depression.

All of the research used to criminalize it has been REDACTED (which in the science world of peer reviewed literature can be a career ending event).  It's almost funny actually if you read the paper used in the 1985 scheduling proceeding, the researcher used methamphetamine (vs. methylenedioxymethamphetamine) and even wrote it as methamphetamine in the PEER REVIEWED paper.

The same researcher was/is responsible for the stupid 'holes in your brain' picture.  Those pics were of radio-labelled 5-HT, dark spots are where there is no serotonin, which is as it should be since serotonin can't and shouldn't ever be in every part of your brain (there are various substructures in the brain which don't respond to or concentrate 5-HT at all).

The only thing he was right about is that you shouldn't take it every weekend.  Habitual use like that will keep your brain from retaining it's 'normal' state and it will 'adapt' to the pattern of serotonin stored vs. actively shuttling serotonin.  This leads to a condition called serotonin syndrome.

Simply put, with moderate use, MDMA is no more or less dangerous then any other entheogen or entactogen people regularly put into their bodies without nearly/any concern about their potential toxicity.

The media jumped on board with the DEA in the early 80's to demonize MDMA because it had as of yet established itself outside of small circles of users.  With the use of completely misleading 'holes in your brain' like images, fear mongering, and down right falsified (methamphetamine vs. MDMA, and other things if you read it) scientific literature, the media managed to instill so much fear into people that it still persists to this day, when technologies 20-30 years more advanced have shown that it's neurotoxicity is actually quite low (lower then alcohol).

Take drugs in moderation, be informed about them before taking them, and LEAD A HEALTHY LIFESTYLE and most of these concerns can be mitigated.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: caffeine_me on December 02, 2011, 08:32 am
second that.  Diet and exercise.......and exercise.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: AussieBeanz on December 03, 2011, 07:34 am
If the MDMA is pure you won't experience much of a comedown, I've experienced horrible comedowns from stims where I get jittery and can't sleep. MDMA has never done this to me. Take a valium/xanax if you you have trouble sleeping and then have some 5-HTP and OJ in the morning, you'll be fine.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: EnterTheMatrix on December 03, 2011, 08:22 am
Xanax, booze and weed =) be careful mixing the booze and Xanax.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: demsone on December 03, 2011, 11:41 am
I use the xanex but i still get that edge and i don't drink but i do smoke a bit of weed. Maybe thats what i need to stop. I must admit diet is not good, will work on all the great advice given. Than ks for the great info guys, really appreciate it.

 :) :)
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: kleopatra on December 03, 2011, 04:21 pm
I agree with everything stated above.  Good stuff guys!

One thing I would like to add is that if you feel the valium or xanax just makes you more 'down' on those suicide tuesdays you might want to consider taking some methoxetamine.  I find it extremely helpful for comedowns as it seems to lift that depressive cloud.  A good size dose gives me a long afterglow that lasts for days and can get you out of the depressive feeling rut you sometime find yourself in after a hard weekend of rolling.

Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: c0w4bung4t007 on December 04, 2011, 12:11 am
This should so be stickied!
I think the original post is a little bit overkill (meaning not all needs to be taken) but anyone who rolls more than once (maybe twice) a month should definitely choose at least some of the supplements there to help them.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: calcium on December 05, 2011, 07:37 am
I've worked a bit with RL MDMA researchers.

A couple simple answers:
1. Long term (ie 10-30 year) effects of regular MDMA use are not yet known. Short term you'll be low on the happy neurotransmitters, but that seems to be 100% clear within 2 weeks max, more like a couple days normally.

2. Because long term effects aren't known, we also don't know how to protect against them. :-P

3. SHORT term (ie a few days) is very variable. Set & setting is a HUGE component of it. All the other stuff (as poster mentioned above) may or may not work; there's not really been much controlled testing of that, so again, we don't really know.


tl;dr: Dose in moderation. Dose in a happy situation. Take care of your basic needs (food, water, etc). Be prepared for a potential comedown and maybe just needing to sleep it out. You'll be fine.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: caffeine_me on December 06, 2011, 05:55 am
I'm confused on the statement we don't have long term users?  In the US, large amounts of people were using MDMA that was sold legally in the bars back in the early 80's.  Before the DEA steam rolled the schedule one. That is about 30 years.......that is better than most "legal" medications.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: demsone on December 06, 2011, 08:59 am
wow thanks for all the useful info guys. I am going to take this on board this coming party season.

I am really happy reading all this.

:)  8)
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: calcium on December 06, 2011, 09:40 pm
I'm confused on the statement we don't have long term users?  In the US, large amounts of people were using MDMA that was sold legally in the bars back in the early 80's.  Before the DEA steam rolled the schedule one. That is about 30 years.......that is better than most "legal" medications.

Yes, but that wasn't controlled randomized assignment. The differences between them and people born the same time who didn't take MDMA could be part of why they decided to take MDMA, rather than effects of it.

To know for sure you have a bunch of people and randomly give half of them the drug and half of them something else. (Usually another stimulant whose properties are well known, aka 'active control'.)

Science is a pain in the ass, but this is how we get to know things. Takes time. Unfortunately, the DEA will barely approve any research in the US these days... especially not on positive uses of drugs. Because they haven't been proven to be beneficial, you see. So you can't make a test to investigate whether they're beneficial.

I'm not joking, their reasoning actually is that circular.
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: sellingstuff on December 07, 2011, 10:32 am
Just thought I'd share this . . . .

In 2011, a paper examining an unusual group of MDMA-only users (most people who try and use Ecstasy/MDMA have also use other recreational drugs) found that the MDMA-only users "showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use: ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability."

15 February 2011

The drug known as ecstasy has been used by 12 million people in the United States alone and millions more worldwide.  Past research has suggested that ecstasy users perform worse than nonusers on some tests of mental ability.  But there are concerns that the methods used to conduct that research were flawed, and the experiments overstated the cognitive differences between ecstasy users and nonusers.

In response to those concerns, a team of researchers has conducted one of the largest studies ever undertaken to re-examine the cognitive effects of ecstasy, funded by a $1.8 million grant from the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) and published today in the journal Addiction. The study was specifically designed to minimize the methodological limitations of earlier research.

In contrast to many prior studies, ecstasy users in the new study showed no signs of cognitive impairment attributable to drug use:  ecstasy use did not decrease mental ability.

Lead author John Halpern is quick to point out that this group of researchers is not the first to identify limitations in prior studies of ecstasy users.  “Researchers have known for a long time that earlier studies of ecstasy use had problems that later studies should try to correct.  When NIDA decided to fund this project, we saw an opportunity to design a better experiment and advance our knowledge of this drug.”

The researchers fixed four problems in earlier research on ecstasy.  First, the non-users in the experiment were members of the "rave" subculture and thus repeatedly exposed to sleep and fluid deprivation from all-night dancing -- factors that themselves can produce long-lasting cognitive effects.

Second, participants were screened for drug and alcohol use on the day of cognitive testing, to make sure all participants were tested while ‘clean’.

Third, the study chose ecstasy users who did not habitually use other drugs that might themselves contribute to cognitive impairment.

Finally, the experiment corrected for the possibility that any cognitive impairment shown by ecstasy users might have been in place before they started using the drug. 

The resulting experiment whittled 1500 potential participants down to 52 carefully chosen ecstasy users, whose cognitive function was compared against 59 closely-matched non-users, with tests administered at several stages to make sure participants were telling the truth about their drug and alcohol use.

So does this mean that ecstasy really is the risk-free, hangover-free, miracle drug that lets young ravers and gamers party all weekend without having to pay the price?  Says Halpern, “No.  Ecstasy consumption is dangerous:  illegally-made pills can contain harmful contaminants, there are no warning labels, there is no medical supervision, and in rare cases people are physically harmed and even die from overdosing. It is important for drug-abuse information to be accurate, and we hope our report will help upgrade public health messages.  But while we found no ominous, concerning risks to cognitive performance, that is quite different from concluding that ecstasy use is ‘risk-free’."
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: klaassjaak on December 07, 2011, 11:09 pm
I usually stock up with fuel reserves and vitamins a few days before... (start on wensday or thrusday if the party is on a saturday), like nuts and other healthy fatty foods... Other then that I think healthy lifestyle really contributes!
Also I try to eat whatever I can (despite the fact I'm not at all hungry, and my jaw hurts like hell) after the roll... Only drink water and vitamin stuff when rolling (don't overdo this! I red about someone actually died of water-poisoning)... and rest properly the days after...
I usually don't have a hard time comming down, I'm rather relaxed the sun- mon and tuesdays after use...
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: UeXtation on December 08, 2011, 12:28 am
There are a lot of studies. Have been for awhile, but its seems like as is the case with a lot of research people are set on proving its harmless and some are set on proving its harmful.

Despite science being objective - until MDMA is actually legal and users consistently use only A grade substance of a period of years we can only determine neuro toxicity then we can study the effects direct through the brain not through a  subjective study of assumed users and '52' ppl is not enough sorry, and cognitive testing does not mean the brain hasnt suffered damage to things like your EQ.

And given how many people now use this drug, by not legalizing it and allowing such studies means we are left unable to properly treat (well we can to a large extent but still in principle) any negative conditions that might occur due to its use. To me that in itself is criminal and a serious human rights issue.

Anyways the best research i've read claims that a dose of .1 - 1mg / kg of MDMA every other day keeps the doctor away and  trains the brain to behave as if its on 'e' permanently. Who wants to test that one ;)
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: Versailles on December 08, 2011, 10:09 pm

Best option try for 3 -4 times a year, hard I know. If you maintain that you will not lose the 'magic'

If you are more regular with usage try  an example diet pre/post loading scheme to protect your brain (from another forum) (5-htp is not the only helpful thing)...

Thanks so much Ue. You should get an award for that epic post. ;)
Title: Re: MDMA/XTC - Whats best for the comedown?
Post by: UeXtation on December 09, 2011, 12:41 am
naw not me - just a cut and past remix ;)