Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: MrJones on August 02, 2013, 01:09 am
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*This is in reference to a question someone had in the newb forums about a Vendor threatening the police with his address* - I felt it could help alot of others out so I reposted it as its own thread....somewhere besides the newb/spam forums.
What's he going to say? Hey, I sold drugs to this guy on the internet, here's his address.
By law, they can't do anything anyway besides just go over to your house and try to use sneaky tactics to get more info.
Here's the law as I've researched it. They need 2 pieces for a warrant.... Or maybe just the last one.
1) A tip off, like, if someone told the police where you lived and that you were doing drugs is the first piece.
2) The second piece they need is called "corroboration" (wikipedia it) Corrorboration as I understand it is the police or whomever "seeing, hearing, sensing, or you insinuating anything indicating illegal activity, etc." Let's say you seem really out of it and are on drugs, or you say something that slightly insinuates you have illegal stuff inside your place, or maybe even if your pupils are dialated....I'm not exactly sure on how far it goes but I know..well police will try to trick you...and can...and will lie. Also, who are people going to be more likely to believe in a court of law even if the officer did lie to get in?
You or him?
Once they get those two pieces, as far as I've researched, they can get a warrant to search your house.
Otherwise, they will probably come to your door one day (maaaaybe) and then ASK to come in or do something else like ask to use the restroom.
They may make up a reason such as "we've heard of some people around here getting their stuff stolen and we've noticed that the theives have been able to get only to houses that have this type of lock on their door" or some bulllshit like that. It's essentially they're job to trick people so they can get corroboration and thus obtain a warrant. If it was your job to trick people into getting corroboration for...say...10 years, don't you think you'd be good at it?
They may say they are the IRS or something (although I'm fuzzy on the laws about that if they have to identify themselves as actual police/investigators).
What I DO KNOW is that if you ask a police officer what rights you have right now/what the laws are regarding the scenario currently present they HAVE to tell you. If they can't or won't then I'd believe (although I'm not a lawyer) that any information or anything they saw/heard/got without you asking them about first and them not telling you would be considered false evidence/corroboration.
Anyways, if/when they come knocking (and you have illegal stuff at your place) you better think of a good and reasonable excuse to not let them in. Say you just gassed the place for insects and open the door with a mask on....and you dont want to get them sick. Say your dog doesn't like strangers and you worry for their safety. Say you're place is too messy and you're embarrassed about it but can chat outside. Say you're late for class or a doctors appointment and HAVE to leave RIGHT now. Say you have to take a MASSIVE sh!t and just can't hold it any longer...you'll have to talk to them later.
Additionally..they'll always come in pairs - and most likely - theyre strategy would be to split up. You can't keep track of two people at once especially while one sneaks around.
You'll feel sketchy not letting them in...and they may try to look more closely at you in whatever manner they can if you refuse to let them in but...just DON'T LET THEM IN. EVEN IF A BEAR STARTS ATTACKING THEM - CLOSE THE DOOR AND MAKE THEM STAY OUTSIDE.
The other issue is if you have roommates - cause that'll be fun. Roommates can let the officers in even if you say no and this can get very tricky. If you have a designated part of the house that is considered yours (like your room) keep everything in there. If that is your designated part of the house - you can refuse to let them into that part of the house...so just go in there and lock the door. If they try to come in...well you'll have to think of another excuse.
It's all about not falling for their sneakiness, not letting them in no matter what, etc.
A tip off is nothing more than a tip off. A tip off does not allow them to get access to a warrant. A tip off + corroboration does.
Any rep would be appreciated :) I feel this information is pretty useful.
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If they don't have a warrant you don't let them in.
Open the door, say hi whats the problem officer?
Then say nope you can't come in and close the door.
Questions: Do you even have to open the door?
What if you open the door and he says that he smells drugs as a lie to get in..?
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No, you don't have to open the door. Knock and talks are a super good way for cops to weasel their way into your business. Fuck them. Don't answer the door. If they have enough evidence to get a warrant they'll let themselves in ;D. If they don't have a warrant they can go to fuck off town. Not answering the door is like not talking without a lawyer present, it's what you do. Not like you have a lawyer with you at your door ::).
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call me paranoid, but that comes from dealing with ATF for too many years
at every entrance to both the shop and my residence, there are video cameras - additonally, in view of the cameras are small 5"X7" (approx) plastique signs indications "notice - premises monitored at all times electronically, both video & audio" - that is necessary if you want to introduce any evidence in court against LE - again, important is the fact that the signs are by the doorbell buttons and in view of the cameras
i've had ATF come by and ask me to turn the cameras off - my response, "i can't" - 2nd response is, does a bank turn off it's security system for the IRS? = mine is set up so that it can't be dis-abled by anyone, including me
i had a federal agency come by, as you guys described above, wanting to come in - i responded, sorry, but without a warrant, no entry. Get a warrant and i'll pour you coffee when you come back with it. Please be sure to do due diligence when requesting that warrant, any false statements will bear consequences. I was asked why didn't i want them to come in without a warrant - my response "because you guys practice at night giving aspirin a headache, and i've had my share of unnecessary headaches". It's more the attitude that convinces them to quit trying to trick their way in.
As the earlier posters indicated, they will try to impose their way in, make you feel pressure that not letting them in is some sort of indication of guilt - it's not - it's an indication of experience - IF THEY WERE IN YOUR SHOES THEY WOULDN'T LET YOU IN - and for a reason.
fwiw
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Yes, without a warrant police are like debt collectors and vampires; they need to be invited in!
On an unrelated note about bailiffs (UK debt collectors, who buy debts cheap and then use thuggish looking men to intimidate the poor unfortunates into coughing up) a similar condition applys. If you simply refuse to acknowledge their existence they will eventually go away. They cannot force entry to your property, however once you have allowed them in to inventory your goods its a whole different ballgame.
This does not apply to council tax or court bailiffs who have greater powers and NEVER give up. These will not go away if you ignore them.
But normal private debt collectors, who have bought the debt and are trying to milk it by adding charges for each visit, eventually they will decide to cut their losses and fuck off.
I'm guessing this only applys when you are genuinely poor (due to say, being a heroin addict) and thus have little of value to pursue. Its no use trying this with several expensive cars parked in your drive.
In my younger, carefree days, when I was not answering the door to many creditors who had been foolish enough to extend me credit when it was clear I had no job or means of paying it back, I was living in a hutch termed a 'studio apartment' by the landlord. I got a letter from bailiffs threatening that if I didn't contact them immediately with an offer of payment they would seize the silver BMW parked outside.
Of course they knew this wasn't my car. The idea was that I would ring them to say "That isn't my car idiots" and thus trick me into acknowledging their existence. Once they'd got me on the phone they would have made contact and gain all kinds of new legal powers.
NOTE: NONE of the above is based on any kind of legal knowledge or fact and as such should not be relied on in dealing with financial problems. If you are struggling with debt there are helplines and suchlike.
I'm still paying off the fucking council tax....those fuckers never give up.
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That is a good point made about the attitude - from the previous poster. It was the middle of the day for me actually in the middle of a big big college city and they thought I was a terrorist or something for some reason....but then they quickly realized I wasn't after showing them like my school ID and such.
I guess the general jist of this thread then is
If you're the one to open the door (like you don't have roommates standing there when you open it just don't let them in.
If someone were to give the cops a tip off (actually had a friend of mine tip off this ASSHOLE we both knew who was rampanting doing cocaine (i can't be a hypocrit about the drugs admittedly, but he was that "type" of dude that gets so wild and ridicilous and can't control themselves and driving around the city obviously drunk (like the way he was driving was almost as if he wanted to announce to people his mental state intentionally as much as he could).
We even had videos of him doing the drug where he announced it and everything we gave to the police....and since he lived closeby his drug use was actually affecting our lives - he would constantly threaten, do immature higns, or mention something ridiuclous like how he can order hits on people......and all sorts of other shit.
Thing is, even after all that. Police did nothing. They didn't even go talk to him and he was home at the time we told them all about this. All they said was "the next time you see him on drugs just call us."
-------That's probably how itd go down(people getting repeatedly pissed at you or calling the police on you for your drug use) f it did go down in the style/the scenario I initially mentioned in my first post.
Otherwise, and I"m sure law enforcement reads these forms and would agree with this - the biggest issues/most likely factors that someone gets caught from what I've come across are
A) Being a fucking retarded vendor and openly telling people your address in a taunt style fashion - isnt that what that guy in florida was doing?
B) Your vendor having VERY, VERY bad stealth and not reading the tips outlined in those stickies in the shipping forms. People need to start using those special bags that apparently dogs cant even sniff through everytime in my opinion - and using 3 of those bags plus more.
C) Elligible address to postman of mailbox, because apparently these packages get opened to "try to figure out some evidence of where the package should go".
d) The vendor getting caught by doing something like in #3 and getting it returned or if it's a large amount launchign a much bigger investigation to hunt you down.
By the way, for anyone who has traveleed outside the country....they take your fingerprints when you reenter if you don't remember. Fingerprints are generally hard to get from even obvious things (I had a cop dust something that Icould actually look and see the prints on with my naked eye after I had just been stolen from.,,,,and he failed.
Most of all, it like should be a freaking requireQment that vendors take some sort of test or something after reading and studying all that shipping advice in that forum - it'd hopefully keep the idiots in check and just overall improve the safety of everyone in this community probably by several factors.
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Yes, without a warrant police are like debt collectors and vampires; they need to be invited in!
On an unrelated note about bailiffs (UK debt collectors, who buy debts cheap and then use thuggish looking men to intimidate the poor unfortunates into coughing up) a similar condition applys. If you simply refuse to acknowledge their existence they will eventually go away. They cannot force entry to your property, however once you have allowed them in to inventory your goods its a whole different ballgame.
This does not apply to council tax or court bailiffs who have greater powers and NEVER give up. These will not go away if you ignore them.
But normal private debt collectors, who have bought the debt and are trying to milk it by adding charges for each visit, eventually they will decide to cut their losses and fuck off.
I'm guessing this only applys when you are genuinely poor (due to say, being a heroin addict) and thus have little of value to pursue. Its no use trying this with several expensive cars parked in your drive.
In my younger, carefree days, when I was not answering the door to many creditors who had been foolish enough to extend me credit when it was clear I had no job or means of paying it back, I was living in a hutch termed a 'studio apartment' by the landlord. I got a letter from bailiffs threatening that if I didn't contact them immediately with an offer of payment they would seize the silver BMW parked outside.
Of course they knew this wasn't my car. The idea was that I would ring them to say "That isn't my car idiots" and thus trick me into acknowledging their existence. Once they'd got me on the phone they would have made contact and gain all kinds of new legal powers.
NOTE: NONE of the above is based on any kind of legal knowledge or fact and as such should not be relied on in dealing with financial problems. If you are struggling with debt there are helplines and suchlike.
I'm still paying off the fucking council tax....those fuckers never give up.
Ha, i've been studying debt collection laws in the US and according to your above story if they did that to you which is "lied to you, falsified information in an attempt to collect a debt, or tried to intimidate you in any way", you can (assuming you record the calls and stuff) get a lawyer who will take your case on most likely because you'll win....and also very easily get the defendent (the collectors to also pay all legal fees).
If done right, to be honest, if you're on your game everytime they call, let them know YOU are ALSO recording this call, and they fuck up enough you can just sue them - some people actually make a living this way I've heard.
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call me paranoid, but that comes from dealing with ATF for too many years
at every entrance to both the shop and my residence, there are video cameras - additonally, in view of the cameras are small 5"X7" (approx) plastique signs indications "notice - premises monitored at all times electronically, both video & audio" - that is necessary if you want to introduce any evidence in court against LE - again, important is the fact that the signs are by the doorbell buttons and in view of the cameras
i've had ATF come by and ask me to turn the cameras off - my response, "i can't" - 2nd response is, does a bank turn off it's security system for the IRS? = mine is set up so that it can't be dis-abled by anyone, including me
i had a federal agency come by, as you guys described above, wanting to come in - i responded, sorry, but without a warrant, no entry. Get a warrant and i'll pour you coffee when you come back with it. Please be sure to do due diligence when requesting that warrant, any false statements will bear consequences. I was asked why didn't i want them to come in without a warrant - my response "because you guys practice at night giving aspirin a headache, and i've had my share of unnecessary headaches". It's more the attitude that convinces them to quit trying to trick their way in.
As the earlier posters indicated, they will try to impose their way in, make you feel pressure that not letting them in is some sort of indication of guilt - it's not - it's an indication of experience - IF THEY WERE IN YOUR SHOES THEY WOULDN'T LET YOU IN - and for a reason.
fwiw
Interesting that you have cameras at your house...
I was thinking of getting some put in place but I was affraid that they would be used against me at some point. I do believe they can request the video of you inside your house and use it against you. So if you were to do something in the house that you should not be doing, they can bring it up as evidence. Correct me if I am wrong?
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Yes, without a warrant police are like debt collectors and vampires; they need to be invited in!
On an unrelated note about bailiffs (UK debt collectors, who buy debts cheap and then use thuggish looking men to intimidate the poor unfortunates into coughing up) a similar condition applys. If you simply refuse to acknowledge their existence they will eventually go away. They cannot force entry to your property, however once you have allowed them in to inventory your goods its a whole different ballgame.
This does not apply to council tax or court bailiffs who have greater powers and NEVER give up. These will not go away if you ignore them.
But normal private debt collectors, who have bought the debt and are trying to milk it by adding charges for each visit, eventually they will decide to cut their losses and fuck off.
I'm guessing this only applys when you are genuinely poor (due to say, being a heroin addict) and thus have little of value to pursue. Its no use trying this with several expensive cars parked in your drive.
In my younger, carefree days, when I was not answering the door to many creditors who had been foolish enough to extend me credit when it was clear I had no job or means of paying it back, I was living in a hutch termed a 'studio apartment' by the landlord. I got a letter from bailiffs threatening that if I didn't contact them immediately with an offer of payment they would seize the silver BMW parked outside.
Of course they knew this wasn't my car. The idea was that I would ring them to say "That isn't my car idiots" and thus trick me into acknowledging their existence. Once they'd got me on the phone they would have made contact and gain all kinds of new legal powers.
NOTE: NONE of the above is based on any kind of legal knowledge or fact and as such should not be relied on in dealing with financial problems. If you are struggling with debt there are helplines and suchlike.
I'm still paying off the fucking council tax....those fuckers never give up.
Ha, i've been studying debt collection laws in the US and according to your above story if they did that to you which is "lied to you, falsified information in an attempt to collect a debt, or tried to intimidate you in any way", you can (assuming you record the calls and stuff) get a lawyer who will take your case on most likely because you'll win....and also very easily get the defendent (the collectors to also pay all legal fees).
If done right, to be honest, if you're on your game everytime they call, let them know YOU are ALSO recording this call, and they fuck up enough you can just sue them - some people actually make a living this way I've heard.
This happened in UK.
Regardless of jurisdiction, this trick could easily be defended as a genuine mistake on their part. These people usually have a fairly good grasp of the law as it relates to their business.
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If someone were to give the cops a tip off (actually had a friend of mine tip off this ASSHOLE we both knew who was rampanting doing cocaine (i can't be a hypocrit about the drugs admittedly, but he was that "type" of dude that gets so wild and ridicilous and can't control themselves and driving around the city obviously drunk (like the way he was driving was almost as if he wanted to announce to people his mental state intentionally as much as he could).
We even had videos of him doing the drug where he announced it and everything we gave to the police....and since he lived closeby his drug use was actually affecting our lives - he would constantly threaten, do immature higns, or mention something ridiuclous like how he can order hits on people......and all sorts of other shit.
Thing is, even after all that. Police did nothing. They didn't even go talk to him and he was home at the time we told them all about this. All they said was "the next time you see him on drugs just call us."
Sounds like you had better be careful around this friend of yours, since it sounds like he has no problem taking stories about drug use to the police if he deems it necessary.
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That is a good point made about the attitude - from the previous poster. It was the middle of the day for me actually in the middle of a big big college city and they thought I was a terrorist or something for some reason....but then they quickly realized I wasn't after showing them like my school ID and such.
I guess the general jist of this thread then is
If you're the one to open the door (like you don't have roommates standing there when you open it just don't let them in.
If someone were to give the cops a tip off (actually had a friend of mine tip off this ASSHOLE we both knew who was rampanting doing cocaine (i can't be a hypocrit about the drugs admittedly, but he was that "type" of dude that gets so wild and ridicilous and can't control themselves and driving around the city obviously drunk (like the way he was driving was almost as if he wanted to announce to people his mental state intentionally as much as he could).
We even had videos of him doing the drug where he announced it and everything we gave to the police....and since he lived closeby his drug use was actually affecting our lives - he would constantly threaten, do immature higns, or mention something ridiuclous like how he can order hits on people......and all sorts of other shit.
Thing is, even after all that. Police did nothing. They didn't even go talk to him and he was home at the time we told them all about this. All they said was "the next time you see him on drugs just call us."
-------That's probably how itd go down(people getting repeatedly pissed at you or calling the police on you for your drug use) f it did go down in the style/the scenario I initially mentioned in my first post.
Otherwise, and I"m sure law enforcement reads these forms and would agree with this - the biggest issues/most likely factors that someone gets caught from what I've come across are
A) Being a fucking retarded vendor and openly telling people your address in a taunt style fashion - isnt that what that guy in florida was doing?
B) Your vendor having VERY, VERY bad stealth and not reading the tips outlined in those stickies in the shipping forms. People need to start using those special bags that apparently dogs cant even sniff through everytime in my opinion - and using 3 of those bags plus more.
C) Elligible address to postman of mailbox, because apparently these packages get opened to "try to figure out some evidence of where the package should go".
d) The vendor getting caught by doing something like in #3 and getting it returned or if it's a large amount launchign a much bigger investigation to hunt you down.
By the way, for anyone who has traveleed outside the country....they take your fingerprints when you reenter if you don't remember. Fingerprints are generally hard to get from even obvious things (I had a cop dust something that Icould actually look and see the prints on with my naked eye after I had just been stolen from.,,,,and he failed.
Most of all, it like should be a freaking requireQment that vendors take some sort of test or something after reading and studying all that shipping advice in that forum - it'd hopefully keep the idiots in check and just overall improve the safety of everyone in this community probably by several factors.
Fuck you, on so many levels. If this guy is a douche bag be a decent human and just beat his ass.
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Don't ever lie to the police, they are expecting you to lie so they can trip you up and then get probable cause. Your only words to the police ever should be 'Do you have a warrant?' ' Am I under arrest?' 'I want a lawyer' and that's it.
You may think cops are dumb and that you can talk your way out of shit but you can't, they purposely are trying to get you to open up so they can see 'in plain site' contraband, or smell drugs, or other lies to find an excuse to search the place which they can easily do when the door is opened. If they have to kick down the door without a warrant you WALK FREE even if you have a ton of coke stacked to the ceiling.
As for shakedowns where some Vendor claims they will tip off police unless you give them more money this is always a bluff. Scammer tactics 101 just don't even communicate anymore with the guy let the emails go unanswered and he will move on to another idiot using his home address to receive narcotics. If you do actually get something in the mail reject it immediately don't open it or take possession who knows what they sent you. Don't use this site like Amazon either ordering a dozen shipments at once. Order shit one at a time and wait until you receive, to a drop not wherever you live.
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call me paranoid, but that comes from dealing with ATF for too many years
a............
fwiw
Interesting that you have cameras at your house...
I was thinking of getting some put in place but I was affraid that they would be used against me at some point. I do believe they can request the video of you inside your house and use it against you. So if you were to do something in the house that you should not be doing, they can bring it up as evidence. Correct me if I am wrong?
actually only have them outside at the entrances, currently - and at the main entrance have two, one visible (to re-inforce the sign) and the other hidden, in case they don't want to be recorded, (as most cops don't) and decide to put that camera out of commission
again, i'm paranoid but i also have first hand knowledge of how lacking in integrity cops usually are - they think they're so above the law, that nothing they do is illegal. Look at the stories in the paper about cops breaking cell phones folks (passerbys, not the individual they're arresting) are using to record them.
Back in the mid to late 90s, in the course of 12 months there were stories of 3 former FBI agents convicted for serious crimes (one for trying to kill his estranged wife by planting a bomb in a rural church before he was supposed to meet her there, the 2nd FBi agent was killed in a shootout at a bank he was robbing - they (the FBI) had this former agent under surveillance as they suspected he was the robber in a string of bank robberies, and observed him casing a rural bank, so they put a stake out on the bank. 3rd agent was convicted of blackmailing someone he'd been working for as a private investigator. Not long after, was talking to a customer, a retired FBI agent about it and he told me DOJ had done a study and something line 25-28% of LE goes to the "dark side", whether after leaving whatever force or dept, or while still on the force. I believe it
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Don't ever lie to the police, they are expecting you to lie so they can trip you up and then get probable cause. Your only words to the police ever should be 'Do you have a warrant?' ' Am I under arrest?' 'I want a lawyer' and that's it. .......
to re-inforce the part about not lying to police, not only for the reasons stated, it's a federal felony to lie to law enforcement, doesn't matter if it's your local dog catcher or the FBI. And they will add that charge to whatever else they charge you with - current trends seem to be to charge as many crimes as possible, even 3 different charges under 3 differenct statutes for the same act - for leverage in any plea bargains.
best advice is, KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT - don't feel the need to appear to be co-operative, simple words "Lawyer....WARRANT?....am i under arrest?" should be all
repeat that as many times as it takes to make it "auto-pilot genetically encoded" so when / if the event occurs, you remember
fwiw
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All I got out of this thread was that Mr. Jones is a narc.... wtf?
Ryno
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I opened the door one time when cops saw my friend smoking a bowl on the first floor balcony of the apartment. The cop gave the door a hard shove and tried to step inside as soon as I opened the door. I blocked the doorway and held my ground (he was too weak to push past me, but tried!) he stumbled back and looked shocked, I just smiled and said "good evening officer, what can I do for you?" He turned bright red and demanded he be let in, I am no dummy and know my rights so I said "if you have a warrent then of course!" he got more red! I told the cop I would send my friend out but without a warrent he had no right to come in and at that point I asked for his badge and bond number and the name and contact number for his supervisor (that always scares them!), he decided to walk away instead of dealing all the paperwork, write ups, and headaches he would have had to deal with if we had decided to make a stink about it.
The moral of the story, know your rights, don't be scared, don't be rude, just be smart. Deny everything, never change your story, and never trust a pig
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What about swatting? It is very possible for the police to "Accidentally" find a package that was mailed if the address is swatted at the right time. Drugs, or money requesting drugs could be sent to the neighbors, the police can be tipped off after a easy to smell package is mailed. There are a lot of ways to do this if you give it some thought.
There is a vendor who was accused of doing just that here on Silk Road, I am not going to mention any names, but he pulled the threads that had a laundry list of bad deeds, including a murder, and keeping all of his SR customers addresses.
Personally if this is going to be done against a thief, I really don't give a shit death to the thieves any way they can be killed.
But otherwise, it would be pretty much bullshit