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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: jackxblack on February 18, 2013, 06:37 pm

Title: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: jackxblack on February 18, 2013, 06:37 pm
Hi all, I have been reading up about others MDMA (and other psychedelics) loading schedules, and I was wondering if folks would take a look at my proposed schedule and give me some feedback. Please let me know how it looks and if there is anything you would add or remove. II'm also interested in the doses, as these are just ballpark estimates. 've not included 5HTP because, though I've taken it in the past, I'm a bit nervous about the research I've read regarding it and neurotoxicity.

I'm also wondering about MDMA dosing. I'm quite experienced with psychedelics in general, and MDMA in particular, but haven't rolled much in the last 8 or 9 years; usually just mushrooms once or twice a year, lsd, 2Cxx and mdma here and there, but  fairly infrequently. I weigh around 190lbs (i'm tall and fairly muscular, not fat) and was planning on a 170-190mg dose for myself. I generally have a high threshold for psychedelics. My two female companions are quite a bit smaller, one weighs 115lbs and the other around 105lbs. I was thinking of giving them both around 120-130mg doses. Our roll will be spent at home, so we don't have to worry about being in public, and are interested in a strong experience. What do you all think? In addition to my vitamin/supplement loading schedule I will be taking one viagra at the same time that we dose the mdma, both for its obvious effects, and because I have read that it has actually been shown to help protect one's brain from trauma; as great side benefit ;-)

**MDMA Loading Schedule**
 
**2-3 days before**
Vitamin C - 500-1000mg
Magnesium - magnesium glycinate 200-400mg
B6 – P5P
Piracetam – 1000-1600mg/morning 800/afternoon
Alpha GPC - 800/morning 400/afternoon

**Day of Roll**
Vitamin C – 2000mg
vitamin E – 500-1000iu
ALA – 600mg
Magnesium - 200-400mg
B6 – P5P

**1 hour before**
vitamin E – 500-1000iu
ALA – 1200mg
Vitamin C – 1000mg
Piracetam – 2400mg
Glass of Grapefruit Juice
Mug of Green Tea

**After**
Vitamin E – 1000iu
ALA – 1200mg
Vitamin C – 1000mg
Piracetam – 1200mg
Magnesium – 500mg

**2-3 days after**
Vitamin E - 500-1000iu
ALA - 1200mg
Vitamin C- 1000mg
Piracetam - 1200mg
Alpha GPC - 800
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: DiamondSky on February 18, 2013, 09:16 pm
Nothing wrong with the pre / post schedule but there's no real scientific research to demonstrate that any of it will help you much. Since we take illegal drugs we sort of get tossed under the bus as far as harm reduction studies go. Piracetam seems to be a popular substance for enhancing the high, Magnesium Chelate was the only type of Magnesium that actually helped my girl with the jaw clenchies and we tried a few. 5HTP wasn't mentioned and lots of people swear by that. I normally take it post roll for a day or two, some people pre-load with it but not on the day of the roll.

I'm going to get flamed for this a little but I try to be as honest as possible so here goes, my girl weighs a lot less than me and we roll on the same dose of MDMA despite all the logic that should defy that. If they have never done it before 120-30mg should probably be fine. I'd probably dose closer to 150mg for everyone and bump from there as needed but it's tricky, too much and someone stops having fun so you're lower dose is more likely to be a good fit if they are new to the drug.

Viagra is fine for me when I take it with MDMA. Never had an issue. People have warned against it but being able to sport wood on MDMA is sort of worth a lot of risk in my mind. Just factor in one point not mentioned on the label, even if you get hard it's still nearly impossible to come.

So most of the pre / post stuff is voodoo magic cooked up by users based on experience or lab tests on rats. None of it will hurt you, most of it is outright healthy for you (5HTP probably shouldn't be taken long term) and if it makes you feel a little safer that will probably help with the roll and there's nothing wrong with that.

Good luck!
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: zipstyle on February 18, 2013, 09:34 pm
I have personally done a regimen similar to yours here.
The piracetam did amazing things for me in terms of returning the magic that MDMA had lost after a long time. I took piracetam every day for a week prior to my roll, which I took in combination with LSD. The experience was one of the most beautiful of my life, I remember turning to my friends and saying that we would never experience bliss like that more than once or twice in our life but that we cheated the system with piracetam haha. Your pre-post load schedule looks awesome. I hope you have a great time!
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: jackxblack on February 18, 2013, 10:09 pm
Thanks DiamondSky and zipstyle for your great replies, they are much appreciated. To be honest I've never tried viagra with MDMA, and have never had any major trouble getting/keeping it up when rolling, but I figured why not give it a spin. Perhaps I'll just take half of one....
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: RaFaeL5 on February 19, 2013, 12:04 pm

So most of the pre / post stuff is voodoo magic cooked up by users based on experience or lab tests on rats. None of it will hurt you, most of it is outright healthy for you (5HTP probably shouldn't be taken long term) and if it makes you feel a little safer that will probably help with the roll and there's nothing wrong with that.


I believe good sleep, good food and enough exercise are more important in the long run than pre&post.
But I never tried pre&post myself - I just saw people filled with vitamins, minerals, ... and have a worse hangover than me...
good, healthy habits will probably be just as effective (if not more) than pills...

my 0.2c
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: tango on February 19, 2013, 02:55 pm
Too hectic man

Just do a few multi vitamin and magnesiums on the day of pre roll and a good night sleep before.

same for post, can add 5htp to help restore serotonin for post loading as well if you like.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: spinbox1 on February 20, 2013, 12:08 am
You think Viagra will protect your brain from trauma?  I've never heard that one before.

The rest of your pre/post load looks pretty good.  I'd be cautious about mixing much viagra in. It will put a strain on your heart.



Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: jackxblack on February 20, 2013, 05:22 am
You think Viagra will protect your brain from trauma?  I've never heard that one before.

The rest of your pre/post load looks pretty good.  I'd be cautious about mixing much viagra in. It will put a strain on your heart.

Thanks for the reply, I'm actually tending to agree with you honestly. I've never had a whole lot of trouble getting/keeping it up under the influence of MDMA, so I may not really need it. I was also surprised about the viagra being protective of your brain, but studies have show that administering sildenafil (viagra) actually prevents MDMA-induced 5-HT neurotoxicity.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: Tryptamine on February 21, 2013, 09:10 pm
Looks good overall.
Your choline consumption seems excessive; I'd suggest taking half that much.
From the dosages you listed, I infer that you're taking RS-ALA. S-ALA is not only inactive, but in some contexts acts as an antivitamin that inhibits the effects of the active R enantiomer. In addition, R-ALA has a strong tendency to polymerize, which renders it insoluble and unusable; very little of the ALA you take will do you any good unless you use Na-R-ALA, the most expensive (and bioidentical) form.
For vitamin E, make sure you're taking natural vitamin E (D, not DL). Ideally you should also be taking mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols as well, you can sometimes find all of those in a pill.
Might also consider taking B3, as niacinamide.
Finally, good call on avoiding 5-HTP; most people on this forum (as well as some irresponsible neuroscientists) carelessly advocate its use, with no more sophisticated reasoning than 'serotonin depletion'. In the future it will be looked upon as is the use of mercury for syphilis, radium for cancer, DNP for obesity, DES for miscarriages, estrogen for menopause, statins/seed oils for artherosclerosis.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: jackxblack on February 21, 2013, 09:38 pm
Looks good overall.
Your choline consumption seems excessive; I'd suggest taking half that much.
From the dosages you listed, I infer that you're taking RS-ALA. S-ALA is not only inactive, but in some contexts acts as an antivitamin that inhibits the effects of the active R enantiomer. In addition, R-ALA has a strong tendency to polymerize, which renders it insoluble and unusable; very little of the ALA you take will do you any good unless you use Na-R-ALA, the most expensive (and bioidentical) form.
For vitamin E, make sure you're taking natural vitamin E (D, not DL). Ideally you should also be taking mixed tocopherols and tocotrienols as well, you can sometimes find all of those in a pill.
Might also consider taking B3, as niacinamide.
Finally, good call on avoiding 5-HTP; most people on this forum (as well as some irresponsible neuroscientists) carelessly advocate its use, with no more sophisticated reasoning than 'serotonin depletion'. In the future it will be looked upon as is the use of mercury for syphilis, radium for cancer, DNP for obesity, DES for miscarriages, estrogen for menopause, statins/seed oils for artherosclerosis.

Hey Tryptamine, Thanks a lot for your reply. Honestly a significant portion of my knowledge came from reading your posts. I was actually planning on taking Na-R-ALA, but based my dosage on others' R-ALA dosage, as I wasn't entirely sure what the dose difference would be. What do you suggest? Do you have dosage advice for the other supplements that I don't have dosages for?

I was also thinking of possibly adding L-Arginine the day of the roll or trip in order to combat vasoconstriction. What do you think?
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: Tryptamine on February 21, 2013, 10:03 pm
Na-R-ALA is nearly as potent as R-ALA by weight; however, Na-R-ALA does not polymerize, while unstabilized R-ALA does. I don't know exactly how significant this is, but my understanding is that very little of the R-ALA that is taken is usable
I don't generally recommend taking individual 'free' amino acids, except for maybe a bit of glycine. B3 should take care of vasoconstriction. Nitric oxide is a 'last resort', and should not be relied upon.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: jackxblack on February 21, 2013, 10:36 pm
Awesome, thanks a lot. On a related note, I will be posting my daily nootropic/supplement regimen in the drug safety forum for critique, and would love some feedback. Cheers!
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: RaFaeL5 on February 21, 2013, 11:02 pm
thank you Tryptamine for the info

another question: none of you has mentioned the use of melatonine as a postload.
why is that? any reasons to avoid taking melatonine before/after MDMA?
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: Tryptamine on February 22, 2013, 12:54 am
It's a potent hormone, I don't recommend taking it indiscriminately. It's good for fixing sleep cycle disturbances though.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: nowayjose on February 22, 2013, 08:47 am
Finally, good call on avoiding 5-HTP; most people on this forum (as well as some irresponsible neuroscientists) carelessly advocate its use, with no more sophisticated reasoning than 'serotonin depletion'. In the future it will be looked upon as is the use of mercury for syphilis, radium for cancer, DNP for obesity, DES for miscarriages, estrogen for menopause, statins/seed oils for artherosclerosis.

You do realize that you are criticizing people for using 5-HTP based on little verified evidence of benefit, but you have even less evidence for your claim, right? 5-HTP hasn't been shown to really harm people (on its own at least). Could it? Sure, but what little we know about it now suggests doesn't suggest that.

Anyway, I'm thinking I'll probably roll this weekend since I have quite a bit of molly. I ended up taking ~325mg last time (2 weeks ago) and it was too much I think. I felt really shitty the next few days - the first time for that to happen to me. Normally I feel fine the day after, but had always limited myself to ~150-180mg. I'm going to try to keep it under 200mg (after last time's after effects I think I'll be much less inclined to re-dose). Regardless, I plan on taking 5-HTP the next few days after. If I feel normal before using it I would have no reason to believe it did anything, but I'm interested to see if it changes my mood if I do feel shitty again. Let's hope I don't have to find out, though.  ;D

I've never done any sort of pre-loading. It doesn't interest me that much. Seems like a lot of research effort for what there is little agreement on...especially compared to potentiating other drugs like opioids and (real, speedy) amphetamines. I've supplemented molly with caffeine and that's nice if you want to be moving around. Pure molly gets me (and most others I think) feeling great, but physically chilled out. Without caffeine I sleep so well though. Generally, I think a healthy diet and lifestyle will probably be the most significant determiners (besides the MDMA itself) of the effects during and after use.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: Tryptamine on February 22, 2013, 05:11 pm
Finally, good call on avoiding 5-HTP; most people on this forum (as well as some irresponsible neuroscientists) carelessly advocate its use, with no more sophisticated reasoning than 'serotonin depletion'. In the future it will be looked upon as is the use of mercury for syphilis, radium for cancer, DNP for obesity, DES for miscarriages, estrogen for menopause, statins/seed oils for artherosclerosis.

You do realize that you are criticizing people for using 5-HTP based on little verified evidence of benefit, but you have even less evidence for your claim, right? 5-HTP hasn't been shown to really harm people (on its own at least). Could it? Sure, but what little we know about it now suggests doesn't suggest that.

Not quite. Although my knowledge of will always be incomplete, unlike my critics here I do at least have some kind of consistent understanding of the physiological role of serotonin and tryptophan,  the lack of meaningful human studies notwithstanding. My critics say 'neurotransmitter' and 'precursor' and 'receptor' and 'transporter' as if these are reasons to take this supplement, as if 'more' 'neurotransmitter' must be 'good'; none of them have demonstrated even a rudimentary understanding of what serotonin is and what its role is 'normally', although they're all adamant that psychedelic drugs work by 'increasing serotonin', with negative effects due to 'low serotonin'.
I've written pretty extensively here on sertotonin and tryptophan; suffice to say I would not have spent my valuable time doing so, invoking hateful responses and 10 -karmas, if I did not think it was worth it to convince at least a few people to stop taking it. It is neither necessary nor beneficial for brain health, nor will it prevent the adverse effects of MDMA. Assuming it reaches your brain and becomes serotonin, its effects will be almost entirely detrimental.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: catfishinmysocks on February 22, 2013, 08:34 pm
To be honest I've never noticed any benefits from pre/post-loading. I've done all the reading, and I see the theories behind some of it, I just get no practical benefit from it whatsoever. I live and eat in a healthy manner all ready, so if that's not the case for you then perhaps it might do something. The one thing I do when taking MDMA or psychs is a cap or two of ginger root. That has the noticeable effect of reducing any stomach issues.

I know there are people who take this stuff super seriously (nootropic crowd), I just don't buy it at all. Placebo IMO.
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: RaFaeL5 on February 22, 2013, 08:50 pm
@ Tryptamine:

I thank you for your information.

What we wish to do with it, is our own decission - but the fact that you are taking your time & effort to share this with us is totaly appreciated!

 :) :D ;D
Title: Re: MDMA pre/post-loading schedule and dosing questions.
Post by: eclipse on February 23, 2013, 09:49 pm
I always though L-Tryptophan was better than taking 5-htp since L-Tryp gets converted and absorbed better. However I've noticed taking any supplements and just eating well and doing lifting and cardio gets me back to "normal" in 1-2 weeks.