Silk Road forums

Discussion => Security => Topic started by: mileschris on June 19, 2011, 04:12 pm

Title: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: mileschris on June 19, 2011, 04:12 pm
Guys,

If I decide to transfer funds from my MtGox account to a SR wallet, what risks do I potentially face?  I'm wondering about the trail from my initial cash deposit, then to MtGox, then to SR.  I guess the gist of my question is this: will my potential SR wallet, if discovered by "the authorities," be the smoking gun... how difficult would it be to put the money/BTC trail together and lead back to me?
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 19, 2011, 04:33 pm
Well, the thing is... mtgox already told it will cooperate with ease with LE.
However, if you buy btc over there and use them to fund your SR account, they will be tumbled so that if some vendor gets busted, their will be no usable trail since he got other coins than the one you used to fund your account.
however, if SR is a honeypot or compromised or something, you would be at some risk.
What I do for my personal paranoia is getting coins on mtgox (funding via LR and such, layers of tx), tumbling them by myself and funding my SR account.
Greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: mileschris on June 19, 2011, 04:42 pm
Thanks for the response, Modoki.

How would I tumble them myself?
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 19, 2011, 05:30 pm
No Problem.
Check out the article at
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Anonymity#Staying_Anonymous
and do it yourself, or use some service for that.
If you use a service you may check out its credibility, ie that it works.
greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Tokin' Minority on June 19, 2011, 05:48 pm
Using TOR, open a different MyBitcoin.com (or similar services) account for each transfer. Then send from Mt. Gox to that account first before going to your SR wallet. The more anonymous intermediaries the harder it is to link the transactions.
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: mileschris on June 19, 2011, 06:11 pm
Awesome info, werdup and Modoki. Thanks much! :D
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: podperson on June 20, 2011, 03:00 am
well, assuming if and when you can get back into your mtgox account, I would seriously consider leaving it asap:

https://support.mtgox.com/entries/20208066-huge-bitcoin-sell-off-due-to-a-compromised-account-rollback

right now all accounts are blocked and they are saying you won't get in before june 20th, maybe longer  :(
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: watmm on June 21, 2011, 06:24 pm
Well, the thing is... mtgox already told it will cooperate with ease with LE.
However, if you buy btc over there and use them to fund your SR account, they will be tumbled so that if some vendor gets busted, their will be no usable trail since he got other coins than the one you used to fund your account.
however, if SR is a honeypot or compromised or something, you would be at some risk.
What I do for my personal paranoia is getting coins on mtgox (funding via LR and such, layers of tx), tumbling them by myself and funding my SR account.
Greets, M

Hey,

I can't think of any specific questions to ask because i don't know enough about this yet, but would you be able to rephrase this again, baring in mind you're talking to someone who hasn't bought any bitcoins yet, but shares the same security concerns.

I'm not sure what you mean by "timbling", "LE", "over there", "TX", and i assume "LR" is Liberty Reserve?

My impression of all this is that the weak link is that your bank account is coupled with personally identifiable information and the only way to bypass this is to buy bitcoins by cash. Then of course you have to trust the company you're sending the cash to, and hope they it doesn't go missing in the post. I can live with this, but it is a rather cumbersome and slow approach.

Cheers.
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 21, 2011, 06:58 pm
LE = law enforcement
LR = liberty reserve
TX = transaction
tumbling = making them untraceable by mixing and trying to get other coins than the one you put in

So, you're right.
The problem is that for example, if you purchase via bank wire at mtgox, then mtgox may be able to tell LE which coins the guy with your bank wire got. they than can proceed, if they are the seller, or if the seller is compromised, to see that they received the same coins as payment for drugs and thus its sure that you purchased those drugs and directly linked to your name, except you have an anonymous bank account.
Greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: watmm on June 21, 2011, 07:21 pm
Am i dealing directly with the seller or is there any link to SR?
If it's just the seller i communicate with then i like those odds.

Also, if i want to transfer money directly to the bitcoin client rather than using an eWallet service, are my options limited to these?
https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Buying_bitcoins#Small_amounts
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: watmm on June 21, 2011, 09:26 pm
Urgh, trying to get my head around this.
I see SR creates an address that lasts 6 hours for you to transfer money to. Is that address linkable to SR after the 6 hour period?
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 21, 2011, 09:28 pm
well,
if you checkout on SR, you deal via SR with the seller. This means, that your coins go to the SR-eWallet at first and then go to the seller. The seller, in fact, receives different coins than you payed in because SR has an integrated tumbler, which is pretty great since it makes you more anonymous. However, I'd recommend some mixing on your own as well because you never can trust a platform like SR ;) (nothing personal, SR, just rather safe than sorry).
Also, you can't know the seller is not LE and thus your odds aren't as great as you may think. Still, these odds, as you call it, favor clearly you and not LE and thus you are safe, most likely. Though it should be one's target to achieve true anonymity, I believe.
Also, it all depends on what you want to pay per coin. Some options are much cheaper than others. I'd recommend some trade with other persons.
Greets, M

PS: you just posted the other question. Well, afaik, it's not technically linkable, but ofc, if SR is LE, then they can link all the adresses to specific accounts. But the idea behind it is that since SR isn't meant to be compromised you are safe because the adress is not linked to your accont.
this is afaik, I may be wrong as well but I do according to these thoughts.
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: watmm on June 21, 2011, 10:35 pm
Interesting. Thanks for your help...last question... :)

Assuming the most likely approach by LE is to work alongside MtGox or the like, aren't you completely ruling out them tracing you to SR via this approach by transfering to the client on your PC rather than direct to SR? Thus making the only concern the (so far) unlikely event that SR or the seller is LE.
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 21, 2011, 11:30 pm
Well, first I'd like to mention that I don't think its so likely that LE works at tracing Bitcoins since they know it's not easy and most of the time useless. I rather think that they really are some sellers and maybe try to scare buyers. Not yet maybe, but soon. We'll see.
Now, if you put your coins from mtgox to your very own account on your pc and then to SR, you haven't gained anything since they are the same coins and you can still trace them from mtgox to SR. You may want to check out blockexplorer.com for examples.
What you need to do is to send OTHER coins than those you purchased via bank wire and such. Also, it may be possible (I THINK, NOT SURE!), though very unlikely, to gain your IP address if you send bitcoins to SR from your computer. This can be made really fucking very unlikely by using TOR.
So, your best off to use something like mtgox->mybitcoin->SR->seller I think. However, if you are not a vendor with big amounts of substances or otherwise really relevant to LE, you are very safe anyway, I think.
As always, I am not too sure about all this and my opinions were wrong already a few times ;) thus, take care!
Greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: niggerjim on June 22, 2011, 06:08 pm
So why does sending money to wallet services like mybitcoin change the coins and sending money to your local wallet not? I dont see any explanation as to why coins change when using certain services.
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 22, 2011, 07:52 pm
Well, its just statistically obvious.
See, if I transfer 500 Bitcoins to MyBitcoin, then Mybitcoin has like, let's say for ease, 1 Million Bitcoins from which 500 are yours. i.e.,the chance you get a coin you already payed in if you decide to transfer the coins further, is 500/1.000.000
Now, if you transfer those 500 Coins you most likely don't own a few thousand anonymous coins already. Thus the chance that the same coins get sent further is very high.
Greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Ambulate on June 22, 2011, 08:52 pm
Back to the traceability of coins though... If each coin references its ownership history then all some LEO needs to do is keep buying coins until they snag one with the (very public) payment address for SR in its chain. From there they can follow ownership back to a funding source with your real identity, whom they can subpoena. It looks like SR's tumbler protects THEM rather more than you. Given the popularity of this site I expect it wouldn't be difficult to collect coins that have been through here. 
When moving your coins around before they get here I'd send them through something like http://www.bitcoinlaundry.com/ (not an endorsement, I haven't used them.)
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: Modoki on June 22, 2011, 10:04 pm
same goes for laundy though then.
also, the point is the linkability. As I already said I think, too, that using SR as tumbler is not enough. Still, one can't link coins that came from SR directly to a person that thus bought drugs.
The coins could be from some other guy and you bought them via cash from him then, for example.
Greets, M
Title: Re: how secure is transferring from mtgox to SR wallet?
Post by: RedRocket on June 23, 2011, 01:33 pm
change ukash to liberty reserve to bitcoin....sounds far better than using a bank account..and its a million times easier for the customer.just go to any shop with paypoint,hand up to 500 quid in cash and they will give you a code.....i