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Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 12:46 am

Title: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 12:46 am

I'm currently on suboxone to help with my addiction but it just isn't doing it.


Which opiate is more pleasurable? (I can't live without being at least buzzed off of opiates, I've tried and I just can't do it so which one feels better? Also I get chronic migraines, which one would help better with pain?)
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: Novartis on October 11, 2012, 01:56 am
I don't have any experience with suboxone as it is generally not prescribed around here. I do however see literally thousands of patients who are on methadone. For many it replaces heroin and you see the same patient on 100 or even 160mg of methadone per dose or per day. I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have taken it for 30 years when it was suppose to gradually ween them off. I'm sure it works for some, but there is a regular stream of patients in and out of methadone treatment (sometimes using both methadone and continuing to use heroin). In my opinion, it has replaced heroin for some, but many go back because it is just not the same. It seems terribly addictive and dangerous to me, but I suppose it's better than heroin.

My understanding of suboxone is that it has an antagonist as well and can cause withdrawal symptoms if given incorrectly - it seems more likely to help with complete opiate cessation than methadone, which seems to be a replacement. I don't have experience with suboxone though.

A lot of the people we see on methadone have "the nod" similar to heroin... making me wonder if they're being given too much liquid dose or taking too many pills if they've been trusted with pills. Also, of course you see that in combination with other opiates like heroin, oxycodone/cotin, vicodin.. rarely see morphine-type pills with methadone but once I saw someone with both a prescription for methadone and kadian I believe (the time released morphine). This person has sickle cell anemia though.
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: Novartis on October 11, 2012, 02:02 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 02:32 am
I don't have any experience with suboxone as it is generally not prescribed around here. I do however see literally thousands of patients who are on methadone. For many it replaces heroin and you see the same patient on 100 or even 160mg of methadone per dose or per day. I can't tell you how many people I've seen who have taken it for 30 years when it was suppose to gradually ween them off. I'm sure it works for some, but there is a regular stream of patients in and out of methadone treatment (sometimes using both methadone and continuing to use heroin). In my opinion, it has replaced heroin for some, but many go back because it is just not the same. It seems terribly addictive and dangerous to me, but I suppose it's better than heroin.

My understanding of suboxone is that it has an antagonist as well and can cause withdrawal symptoms if given incorrectly - it seems more likely to help with complete opiate cessation than methadone, which seems to be a replacement. I don't have experience with suboxone though.

A lot of the people we see on methadone have "the nod" similar to heroin... making me wonder if they're being given too much liquid dose or taking too many pills if they've been trusted with pills. Also, of course you see that in combination with other opiates like heroin, oxycodone/cotin, vicodin.. rarely see morphine-type pills with methadone but once I saw someone with both a prescription for methadone and kadian I believe (the time released morphine). This person has sickle cell anemia though.

Thanks for the info! It was a good read :)

I think I'm switching to a methadone clinic after I finish this first month of suboxone

Thanks!
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: BlarghRawr on October 11, 2012, 04:34 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 04:43 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.


Oh wow, a juicy contradiction! According to your statement, he didn't CHOOSE that medicine, the medicine is the only thing that works. According to this logic, I am correct! No one WANTS to be an addict or CHOSES to be. (My reasons vary for using opiates but my addiction definitely started with headaches and terrible depression.)

Just like you think I CHOSE to be an addict.

No one chooses something they can't control.

Let's see how easy you can deal with addiction, ready, GO!
SHOOT UP HEROIN, come on buddy it isn't that hard! Now, I'm just going to take your drugs away.

What's this? You want your opiates? OH WOW YOU DIRTY SCUM ADDICT HOW DARE YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT YOUR BODY IS NOW PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON SHAME ON YOU DIRTY ADDICT!
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: BlarghRawr on October 11, 2012, 04:59 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.


Oh wow, a juicy contradiction! According to your statement, he didn't CHOOSE that medicine, the medicine is the only thing that works. According to this logic, I am correct! No one WANTS to be an addict or CHOSES to be. (My reasons vary for using opiates but my addiction definitely started with headaches and terrible depression.)

Just like you think I CHOSE to be an addict.

No one chooses something they can't control.

Let's see how easy you can deal with addiction, ready, GO!
SHOOT UP HEROIN, come on buddy it isn't that hard! Now, I'm just going to take your drugs away.

What's this? You want your opiates? OH WOW YOU DIRTY SCUM ADDICT HOW DARE YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT YOUR BODY IS NOW PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON SHAME ON YOU DIRTY ADDICT!
I do think you chose to be an addict, actually. I got addicted to oxy's a few months ago. I just also had enough intelligence to immediately flush all the remaining pills before I could feed the addiction and help it grow into something bigger.

What did you do, when you got your physical dependance? Because me? I fixed the problem. I dealt with it real nice. :)

See, the guy who uses the mushies to fight his cluster headaches? That's a little different from a regular headache. In fact, I can comfortably say that I have never been in as much pain as someone who suffers from cluster headaches has. And I know what necrotizing flesh feels like. I know what it feels like to have my cells dying, while the nerves fire off their batshit psychotic signals of pain, and I know I haven't suffered as much as they do.

And yet that guy isn't an opiate addict, or a mushroom addict. He's not any kind of addict, actually. He uses them for medicinal reasons. You, Fucknugget(worthless beggar of drugs), beg for drugs to feed an addiction that you don't even need. Sure, it would hurt to break the addiction... but you're the one who isn't doing that.
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 05:01 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.


Oh wow, a juicy contradiction! According to your statement, he didn't CHOOSE that medicine, the medicine is the only thing that works. According to this logic, I am correct! No one WANTS to be an addict or CHOSES to be. (My reasons vary for using opiates but my addiction definitely started with headaches and terrible depression.)

Just like you think I CHOSE to be an addict.

No one chooses something they can't control.

Let's see how easy you can deal with addiction, ready, GO!
SHOOT UP HEROIN, come on buddy it isn't that hard! Now, I'm just going to take your drugs away.

What's this? You want your opiates? OH WOW YOU DIRTY SCUM ADDICT HOW DARE YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT YOUR BODY IS NOW PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON SHAME ON YOU DIRTY ADDICT!
I do think you chose to be an addict, actually. I got addicted to oxy's a few months ago. I just also had enough intelligence to immediately flush all the remaining pills before I could feed the addiction and help it grow into something bigger.

What did you do, when you got your physical dependance? Because me? I fixed the problem. I dealt with it real nice. :)

See, the guy who uses the mushies to fight his cluster headaches? That's a little different from a regular headache. In fact, I can comfortably say that I have never been in as much pain as someone who suffers from cluster headaches has. And I know what necrotizing flesh feels like. I know what it feels like to have my cells dying, while the nerves fire off their batshit psychotic signals of pain, and I know I haven't suffered as much as they do.

And yet that guy isn't an opiate addict, or a mushroom addict. He's not any kind of addict, actually. He uses them for medicinal reasons. You, Fucknugget(worthless beggar of drugs), beg for drugs to feed an addiction that you don't even need. Sure, it would hurt to break the addiction... but you're the one who isn't doing that.


Really are you STILL talking because I am STILL Not caring
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: BlarghRawr on October 11, 2012, 05:04 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.


Oh wow, a juicy contradiction! According to your statement, he didn't CHOOSE that medicine, the medicine is the only thing that works. According to this logic, I am correct! No one WANTS to be an addict or CHOSES to be. (My reasons vary for using opiates but my addiction definitely started with headaches and terrible depression.)

Just like you think I CHOSE to be an addict.

No one chooses something they can't control.

Let's see how easy you can deal with addiction, ready, GO!
SHOOT UP HEROIN, come on buddy it isn't that hard! Now, I'm just going to take your drugs away.

What's this? You want your opiates? OH WOW YOU DIRTY SCUM ADDICT HOW DARE YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT YOUR BODY IS NOW PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON SHAME ON YOU DIRTY ADDICT!
I do think you chose to be an addict, actually. I got addicted to oxy's a few months ago. I just also had enough intelligence to immediately flush all the remaining pills before I could feed the addiction and help it grow into something bigger.

What did you do, when you got your physical dependance? Because me? I fixed the problem. I dealt with it real nice. :)

See, the guy who uses the mushies to fight his cluster headaches? That's a little different from a regular headache. In fact, I can comfortably say that I have never been in as much pain as someone who suffers from cluster headaches has. And I know what necrotizing flesh feels like. I know what it feels like to have my cells dying, while the nerves fire off their batshit psychotic signals of pain, and I know I haven't suffered as much as they do.

And yet that guy isn't an opiate addict, or a mushroom addict. He's not any kind of addict, actually. He uses them for medicinal reasons. You, Fucknugget(worthless beggar of drugs), beg for drugs to feed an addiction that you don't even need. Sure, it would hurt to break the addiction... but you're the one who isn't doing that.


Really are you STILL talking because I am STILL Not caring
So you care enough to quote me and reply, but not enough to shut the fuck up?
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 05:07 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.


Oh wow, a juicy contradiction! According to your statement, he didn't CHOOSE that medicine, the medicine is the only thing that works. According to this logic, I am correct! No one WANTS to be an addict or CHOSES to be. (My reasons vary for using opiates but my addiction definitely started with headaches and terrible depression.)

Just like you think I CHOSE to be an addict.

No one chooses something they can't control.

Let's see how easy you can deal with addiction, ready, GO!
SHOOT UP HEROIN, come on buddy it isn't that hard! Now, I'm just going to take your drugs away.

What's this? You want your opiates? OH WOW YOU DIRTY SCUM ADDICT HOW DARE YOU WANT SOMETHING THAT YOUR BODY IS NOW PHYSICALLY AND PSYCHOLOGICALLY DEPENDENT ON SHAME ON YOU DIRTY ADDICT!
I do think you chose to be an addict, actually. I got addicted to oxy's a few months ago. I just also had enough intelligence to immediately flush all the remaining pills before I could feed the addiction and help it grow into something bigger.

What did you do, when you got your physical dependance? Because me? I fixed the problem. I dealt with it real nice. :)

See, the guy who uses the mushies to fight his cluster headaches? That's a little different from a regular headache. In fact, I can comfortably say that I have never been in as much pain as someone who suffers from cluster headaches has. And I know what necrotizing flesh feels like. I know what it feels like to have my cells dying, while the nerves fire off their batshit psychotic signals of pain, and I know I haven't suffered as much as they do.

And yet that guy isn't an opiate addict, or a mushroom addict. He's not any kind of addict, actually. He uses them for medicinal reasons. You, Fucknugget(worthless beggar of drugs), beg for drugs to feed an addiction that you don't even need. Sure, it would hurt to break the addiction... but you're the one who isn't doing that.


Really are you STILL talking because I am STILL Not caring
So you care enough to quote me and reply, but not enough to shut the fuck up?


Yep pretty much :)
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: anex45 on October 11, 2012, 05:11 am

I'm currently on suboxone to help with my addiction but it just isn't doing it.


Which opiate is more pleasurable? (I can't live without being at least buzzed off of opiates, I've tried and I just can't do it so which one feels better? Also I get chronic migraines, which one would help better with pain?)

I was on Suboxone for 2 years but I ended up switching to Methadone and was very happy with the switch. Methadone eliminated my cravings and kept me feeling much better then Suboxone plus the clinic I was going to had some awesome drug counselors you could talk to.

Everyone's body is different and opinions vary widely on the subject of which is better but in my case, I loved Methadone much more then Suboxone....not to mention it was cheaper for me to be on.
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: drugfather on October 11, 2012, 05:13 am

I'm currently on suboxone to help with my addiction but it just isn't doing it.


Which opiate is more pleasurable? (I can't live without being at least buzzed off of opiates, I've tried and I just can't do it so which one feels better? Also I get chronic migraines, which one would help better with pain?)

I was on Suboxone for 2 years but I ended up switching to Methadone and was very happy with the switch. Methadone eliminated my cravings and kept me feeling much better then Suboxone plus the clinic I was going to had some awesome drug counselors you could talk to.

Everyone's body is different and opinions vary widely on the subject of which is better but in my case, I loved Methadone much more then Suboxone....not to mention it was cheaper for me to be on.
Wow, actual helpful advice!

Thank you man, I shall go with your suggestion :)
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: Novartis on October 11, 2012, 05:31 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.

OH YEAH! it was cluster headaches, now I remember. I was thinking that maybe it would help for migranes but there's probably something different about those.

ah, just read the rest of this page and looked it up.... they're different alright. I still wouldn't mind trying it if I personally suffered from migranes (I personally would rather take mushrooms every few months than be on opiates.... the times I've been prescribed opiates I hardly shat and was sick to my stomach.... plus I hear being on mushrooms is kinda fun if you have a decent copy of lord of the rings or something  ;) ....I don't advocate shrooms, but just sayin' I think they're less harmful than opiates - I have NO references to back this up but based on experience I have seen opiates do FAR more damage than hallucinogens. Granted though, I see fair number of ex LSD users who have done permanent brain damage that has lasted well into middle age. The opiate users are often times in the end stages of life (prematurely I might add) I don't really know what to say). 
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: BlarghRawr on October 11, 2012, 05:35 am
Also, I saw a documentary about someone who grew and used their own magic mushrooms (can't remember what the spore name is, but you know)... Anyway, he took a moderate dose every 3 or so months and shockingly it kept the migraines away... he had tried dozens of other treatments and this is the only one that worked. He acted very sad like it was a huge burden having to trip on shrooms every few months. Given the alternative it doesn't seem like THAT terrible a treatment, I'd certainly give it a try if there was a possibility of getting off opiates. I'd probably want to research it some more before trying and check erowid to see if there is a bad interaction with opiates though.

I'd be interested to see if that helped... but not at the expense of hurting yourself. That reminds me, the narcan I stock is a complete antagonist and will throw you straight into withdrawal if injected... need to use nasal administration but that still might throw a heavy user into withdrawal if dosed too high.
I think I know the documentary you might be talking about, and if so then he used the shrooms because he suffered from cluster headaches, not because he was addicted to anything. The reason he didn't like it is because his choices were taking mushrooms every three months or killing himself because he couldn't tolerate the pain of said cluster headaches. So for him, it actually was a huge burden. He didn't want to be on mushrooms, he HAD to be. No one enjoys being forced into something like that.
OH YEAH! it was cluster headaches, now I remember. I was thinking that maybe it would help for migranes but there's probably something different about those.
Honestly, I'm not sure. I could swear that I've heard that psychedelics can also help with migraines, but I could be wrong...

I know BROMO-LSD(non-psychoactive LSD variant) also helps with cluster headaches, though. As far as that goes, bromo-LSD(LSD-bromo? Something like that) is a bit of a miracle-cure. I hope it hits it gets tested and FDA-approved, preferably soon. Fuck knows, those folks who get cluster headaches need it...
Title: Re: Which is better, Methadone or Suboxone?
Post by: Novartis on October 11, 2012, 05:45 am
yeah those cluster headaches sound gnarly... and christ with all the other unknown/unproven medicines they push the potential benefits seem to outweigh the risks. Shit look at YAZ or accutane and all the problems those meds have caused. And those are some of the SAFER ones (I know there's a ton of cancer fighting meds that themselves cause cancer).

I should look those up.. need a good rest though
dream time.