Silk Road forums
Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: dutchog on May 19, 2012, 05:07 am
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Okay so I've got a load of medical grade herb that I'd love to spread around the SR community; however before I begin distributing to paying customers I would like to formulate a packaging method and test it with a few various quantities shipped to an associate; just to see what's likely to get lost on the way. I understand that both visual cues and odor can get a package lost and the best way to send it is express USPS because of their high volume. I plan to use USPS or other common shipping packaging, vacuum sealing, a layer of odor nuetralizer (JIF, no lie), sealed with other food items into another vacuum bag. Larger quanities would be hidden among random cheap stuff from the pharmacy/dollar store to simulate a "care package".
At the end of the day the situation turns out safer for me as the sender since it's easy to fudge the RA; but the receiving party is at risk with their name and address printed on the thing, so it is out of concern for the buyers that I ask this. Really I'm just trying to run my packaging scheme by the community for some feedback and ideas.
I'm also very curious as to what quantities of cannabis are likely to trigger a controlled delivery? 1 oz? A quarter pound? Or do they perhaps not bother to investigate anything under 1 full pound, simply emptying the drugs and sending the package on in the event a lesser amount is discovered. I've been in the weed game since I can remember and nothing less than a pound really excites me but I know from experience cops can be pretty ridiculous. In my former home town I was followed and harassed by the police for years because they assumed I was a "major player" in town who "trafficked in large amounts of cannabis" because during a routine violation of my civil rights after a traffic stop they discovered a picture of my smiling face next to a QP on my cellphone ("Oh that's oregano, officer, I love cooking!").
At any rate any feedback I can get on my packaging scheme would be awesome.
Thanks all
-Dutch
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dogs are well trained to detect odor neutralizer i think.. i can be wrong of course !
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You must really read the mad amounts of threads regarding usps and what gets noticed. Other scents and foods/coffee are not advised as dogs are trained to notice those as well. Triple vac is recommended.
Read the other threads. Much info that should keep you on the up n up. IMO 1-2-3 P's are only subject if flags pop up. If you keep those flags down, you'll more than likely be fine. 1oz is likely also small enough to keep as first class and keep unnoticed. Express is not the way.
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Look into those heat seal bags that you can cut to whatever width you desire. They are supposed to be odor proof and its as simple as cutting them to width, packaging, and then sealing the bag with a curling iron.
I would suggest a triple vacuum seal, then wrap the bag in a couple of drier sheets, and finally heat seal it in one of the odor proof bags. IMO, You can never have to much protection even if it is a bitch to open for whoever ordered it.
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Watch "Never Get Busted" by Barry Cooper. He's got some very interesting bits about dog training and what they look for. And he should know - he trained tons of them and arrested many.
Here's what I remember:
In the beginning of the film, he is making a pot of soup and he claims that when we look at the soup, we see all the ingredients separately, but we smell one thing: soup. Dogs are the opposite in that they don't see well, but they smell the individual items. For this reason, using things like coffee grounds do not work to mask the smell for dogs.
He also said some interesting things about how the scent permeates. Basically, the longer it's in the bag/container, the worse it smells. He suggested always putting it in a fresh container right before you leave if you are traveling.
In addition, he talked about how it really doesn't matter if the dog smells something or not. The dog is trained and will respond to an officer's order - such as a tap of the foot or a finger snap. If an officer believes you have drugs and wants to search your car, all they have to do is command the dog to signal and they have probable cause.
What does this mean for shipping marijuana? Well obviously, it should be put in a brand new packaging and shipped immediately and as quickly as possible. And don't give them a reason to want to search the package - don't send smelly stuff (like coffee grounds) and do not tape up the package all ridiculous so it looks like you are trying to cover smell.
Hope that helps a little.
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+1 idd very informative post.
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To answer your question about the amount... a few years back in my dumber days one of my buddies sent me a abox from Cali with 6 oz in it, he packaged it like a high-ass and i got a call from a postal inspector letting me know my package which my friend put my name on had been flagged by a dog. He told me that if i didnt give consent to search the box and there was narcotics in it i would be issued a warrant. He said if i gave consent and the amount was under a half pound of green he would let it pass, he said if it was over a hp and i gave consent to search i would be issued a warrant. Lucky for me it was only 6 oz. Im not sure if this was a rule in the state i was in, i doubt it because usps is federal but i think thats the rules they play by.
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dogs are well trained to detect odor neutralizer i think.. i can be wrong of course !
Err, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that sniffer dogs can only be trained to sniff out one scent, e.g., a marijuana search dog won't be able to sniff out cocaine. I doubt they'd waste the time and money to train dogs to search out a particular deodorizer, but chances are if you're using a deodorizer to mask your stuff the dog will smell your actual stuff.
And I've heard that yes, an officer can just give a dog a command and it will act as if it smelled drugs and boom- probable cause.
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^ You may be right on that. I know for a fact that it is the case with bomb sniffing vs drug sniffing dogs. You can bet marijuana is the one they look for the most though. Check out the arrest numbers.
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few months back i was receiving a pound a week from cali.
all in one box. just keep in mind layers.
1 pound in a vacuum sealed bag vacuum it. then into a tyvek envelope "not postal". then slide that into a vacuum seal bag seal it. then take that slide into a vacuum bag, and on this one add carbon papers on both sides n vacuum seal again. then seal in another vacuum bag seal it then into two more tyvek envelopes. take a box not and stuff with news paper on one end. then put the package in the box. stuff more news paper this is to keep it from flopping around inside. seal box.
the 4 layers of vacuum seal plus carbon papers and tyvek envelopes should keep you safe inside the box. if the box opens or tears the tyvek envolope keeps eyes from seeing what is in it. i actually saved my ass one time.
be safe folks
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dogs are well trained to detect odor neutralizer i think.. i can be wrong of course !
Err, correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that sniffer dogs can only be trained to sniff out one scent, e.g., a marijuana search dog won't be able to sniff out cocaine. I doubt they'd waste the time and money to train dogs to search out a particular deodorizer, but chances are if you're using a deodorizer to mask your stuff the dog will smell your actual stuff.
And I've heard that yes, an officer can just give a dog a command and it will act as if it smelled drugs and boom- probable cause.
You are wrong.
Drug dogs are trained on multiple drugs. "Utility class" dogs who do scent discrimination (training for fun) are trained on multiple scents. It is not that hard. Cannabis, cocaine, methamphetamine, MDMA, heroin seem to be a common set. I just found a synthetic scent for LSD training, hadn't seen that one before.
The ATF standard for explosives dogs is (I think) a mandatory list of 6 substances, an additional 4 are tested, and you can go search for the "Odor Recognition Proficiency Standard for Explosives Detection Canines" on your own. A dog handler at the airport and I were chatting; I was told the dog was trained on 16.
Deodorizer, as above, and in many other posts, makes no fucking difference in your favor and will not "mask" anything. There is no such thing as scent masking with a dog. It is just "extra" scent. It is like putting purple M&Ms in a bowl of green M&Ms.
In fact, a "weird" scent has potential to work against you, I suspect (speculation.) Dogs who work at smelling stuff all day have a sense of pattern, just like we do at our own jobs.
So, when a dog smells something that is out of context, she is going to get curious, because this is not the same boring crap she has been doing all day. (This is not speculation - this is from training animals and students.)
That newly interested dog may not give a full alert, but might quiver a little and look interested. A subpar handler is then going to reinforce that and may work the dog up into an alert. (I think that this happens and that there is a Clever Hans effect more often than is acknowledged, but I'm talking out my ass on this.) A dishonest handler may call it an actual alert.
Or they may just spend more time with that package, or bring in a different dog to have a go. The longer that package sits there, the more of a problem you have, because it is spilling scent. Time is your enemy (but so is Express Mail, which brought you to the attention of the dog in the first place, maybe.)
Now, it's arguable that enough people put Bounce or whatever in with marijuana that it IS an expected smell...
but it's not going to do anything to fool the dog or even the mail handler.
The idea of distraction scent just needs to Go Away.
It is a standard element in testing/certification. Example:
During certification testing the Canine Team shall also be “proof tested” with other non-narcotic “distracter” or “novelty” odors made present during the course of the test(s). Such items will be placed to test for the ability of the canine to scent discriminate between marijuana / narcotics and other odors (“validation testing”). Various food items will also be present during testing to assure the canine is properly trained for “food refusal” while working to detect marijuana / narcotic odors.
Look, a percentage of people on here have pet dogs. I only have pets, I am not a pro at this stuff, I taught myself. Go teach your dog how to do some basic scent work. You don't even have to go to the library any more and incur late fees like we did back in the olden days.
A lot of things about "drug dogs" will become clear.
If you train your cat to do scent work, I want to see the footage, though.
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In fact, a "weird" scent has potential to work against you, I suspect (speculation.) Dogs who work at smelling stuff all day have a sense of pattern, just like we do at our own jobs.
So, when a dog smells something that is out of context, she is going to get curious, because this is not the same boring crap she has been doing all day. (This is not speculation - this is from training animals and students.)
That newly interested dog may not give a full alert, but might quiver a little and look interested.
According to Barry Cooper (who trained drug dogs for the State of Texas) the way the train the dogs is to go after a ball. He says the dogs that make good drugs dogs are the ones who never stop chasing the ball, no matter what. They cover balls with drug scents to get them to chase the drug scents instead. If what he says is true, they wont be alerted because of sensing a pattern, they just will still be able to smell the drugs.
Either way, don't add extra crap to your package. It wont do you any good and if humans notice it, you'll be redflagged for sure.
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Keep in mind that barry was a texas state trooper probably about 20 years ago, tacticts change and also he was definitely a complete stoner. not sure if that matters but oh well.
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As has been pointed out here - nothing you place in the package is going to "mask" the scent by covering it up somehow. Dog smell doesn't work like that. What you can do is to neutralize the scent somewhat through the use of activated charcoal. You can buy sheets of Activated Carbon (charcoal) for use in furnace filters and the like. It won't completely hide the scent, but it will react with a wide range of common chemicals and bind them to the filter, which should serve to reduce the "signal" as much as is possible. Other than that, vacuum and tyvek bags are your friends.
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Thanks for all the feedback, everybody.
There seems to be some confusion about my current idea though. I like the idea proposed by Vr00mVr0om which basically puts loads of well sealed plastic between the herb and the world. The odor masker (a full seal in a jar of peanut butter, in other words the reefer is completely encased) is meant more to keep postal workers from getting a faceful of dank when they're doing the sort.
Looks like tyvek and vacuum sealing, then.
Thanks alot, all.
As a note: I have heard that drug dogs are trained to hit on certain, very common masking agents (i.e. dryer sheets). I've also been a 'victim' of police officers in NE USA commanding a dog to hit numerous times. On one occasion the dog had a moment of retardation and the officer was forced to tap the trunk of my car five times with increasing authority before the dog "hit" by simply putting his paw on it. My experiences with US police indicate that for every single honest, well meaning officer there are at least 10 absolute sadists. I've actually read several articles in psych journals that indicate the majority of LEOs are pathologically sadistic; and those that aren't eventually suffer extreme psychological stresses as a result of the atrocities they are forced to commit. Then again I come from a place where you generally don't call the police when something goes wrong because it's understood by most people that they will only make the situation far worse. Instead police officers are most often used as tools of retribution by rather unpleasant people since it is so widely known that when they show up they'll basically just arrest the person who's not crying and whining and playing victim.
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Okay so I've got a load of medical grade herb that I'd love to spread around the SR community; however before I begin distributing to paying customers I would like to formulate a packaging method and test it with a few various quantities shipped to an associate; just to see what's likely to get lost on the way. I understand that both visual cues and odor can get a package lost and the best way to send it is express USPS because of their high volume. I plan to use USPS or other common shipping packaging, vacuum sealing, a layer of odor nuetralizer (JIF, no lie), sealed with other food items into another vacuum bag. Larger quanities would be hidden among random cheap stuff from the pharmacy/dollar store to simulate a "care package".
At the end of the day the situation turns out safer for me as the sender since it's easy to fudge the RA; but the receiving party is at risk with their name and address printed on the thing, so it is out of concern for the buyers that I ask this. Really I'm just trying to run my packaging scheme by the community for some feedback and ideas.
I'm also very curious as to what quantities of cannabis are likely to trigger a controlled delivery? 1 oz? A quarter pound? Or do they perhaps not bother to investigate anything under 1 full pound, simply emptying the drugs and sending the package on in the event a lesser amount is discovered. I've been in the weed game since I can remember and nothing less than a pound really excites me but I know from experience cops can be pretty ridiculous. In my former home town I was followed and harassed by the police for years because they assumed I was a "major player" in town who "trafficked in large amounts of cannabis" because during a routine violation of my civil rights after a traffic stop they discovered a picture of my smiling face next to a QP on my cellphone ("Oh that's oregano, officer, I love cooking!").
At any rate any feedback I can get on my packaging scheme would be awesome.
Thanks all
-Dutch
Way to go telling LEO on a public forum your exact shipping methods. Really man. Fucking hats off to you man! Bravo on your logic...
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The odor masker (a full seal in a jar of peanut butter, in other words the reefer is completely encased) is meant more to keep postal workers from getting a faceful of dank when they're doing the sort.
If the rest of your packaging hasn't done this, isn't it kind of failing?
My experiences with US police indicate that for every single honest, well meaning officer there are at least 10 absolute sadists. I've actually read several articles in psych journals that indicate the majority of LEOs are pathologically sadistic
I am really interested in this specific topic, and I would find some references here to be helpful for further exploration.
doi or pmid preferred if you have it, but basic citation will work too.
Best of luck.
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Dogs can smell a single molecule.
They've been known to find bags of weed hidden inside a car's FULL gas (petrol) tank.
The best way to reduce the risk of dog smelling anything is to vac seal and then to wash thoroughly with detergent and water to remove as much excess material as possible. Triple vac sealing may be overkill, but its safer.
There are plastics which can be used for vac sealing which are less porous to odor.
Pin tests are our enemy. Especially when used in conjunction with Ion mobility spectrometry. Fortunately these are prone to false positives and cost a fortune. Dogs are like living IMS machines :) much cheaper to run and train too...
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Dogs can smell a single molecule.
They've been known to find bags of weed hidden inside a car's FULL gas (petrol) tank.
The best way to reduce the risk of dog smelling anything is to vac seal and then to wash thoroughly with detergent and water to remove as much excess material as possible. Triple vac sealing may be overkill, but its safer.
There are plastics which can be used for vac sealing which are less porous to odor.
Pin tests are our enemy. Especially when used in conjunction with Ion mobility spectrometry. Fortunately these are prone to false positives and cost a fortune. Dogs are like living IMS machines :) much cheaper to run and train too...
This. Vac seal, wash, double vac, wash, triple vac with some paper or something in it so you can't visibly see the contents. For extra safety (maybe for large orders), I would then put it in a box and then put that into another box. That way if the outside box gets damaged you're still good.
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Tyvek packaging can be used to defeat pin tests because of it's puncture resistance.
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Keep in mind that barry was a texas state trooper probably about 20 years ago, tacticts change and also he was definitely a complete stoner. not sure if that matters but oh well.
Barry Cooper was not a stoner when he was arresting people. That came much later.
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Tyvek is very strong, but it can not defeat the pin testers as I'd expect those pins are made of a high hardness tool steel or tungsten (to prevent dulling, otherwise they'd be replacing them or sharpening them constantly). Tyvek has excellent in-plane tensile strength, but the compressive strength, puncture resistance, and hardness are poor. In that respect tyvek is similar to kevlar, great for tear resistance, can even stop bullets if it's thick enough, but cannot stop a shank from stabbing you. I've heard these pin & punch testers are employed on envelopes (but have never seen any of my mail with any holes at all), I have no idea if they're used on packages or bubble mailers. I'd guess that these are used on international mail more than domestic.
Anyone ever found tiny holes punched in their domestic mail?
Also, this is probably the 10th time I've posted this, so forgive me if you've already seen this:
Food grade bagging is likely insufficient for getting anything past either dogs or the latest generation of IMS scanners. It is also certainly insufficient for Mass Spec sniffers. Food grade bagging is likely fine for concealing scents from people, and if you are shipping domestic and do not anticipate any further screeing you are likely fine with that... The vacuuming makes no difference, diffusion is not governed by absolute pressure and you can vacuum all you want and you won't change a thing, in fact if the plastic is stretched the diffusion rates can actually increase in the "against the vacuum" direction. Stretching of any material can break up crystal structure which will lead to larger diffusion coefficients. For those who understand differential equations go to Wikipedia and look u the diffusion equation, you'll see what I mean. If you are shipping international or if you are shipping something large quantities I would suggest using a good quality moisture barrier bag. Research that term "moisture barrier bag" and it will become apparent why it is superior to food grade bagging.
Best Regards,
Bob
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If you want to know how good the dogs are look up an episode of mythbusters that tested a few of the more well known methods of concealing drugs from dogs. Hint: the dogs win
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Great Thread!
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even if dogs smell your package, dogs are never 100% accurate
stood there whilst a couple sniffed me toe to toe, i had a couple spliffs in my ciggie pack and they were none the wiser