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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Rocker on April 26, 2012, 08:23 am

Title: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Rocker on April 26, 2012, 08:23 am
I thought I'd take the chance to answer or respond to a few questions I get frequently about these magical fungi.

I have a good knowledge of mycology, but this write-up is by no means authoritative. Just observations after over a decade of experience with them.

Please feel free to chime in, challenge me, or ask a question that's on your mind. Because my knowledge is somewhat specific to my grower's P. Cubensis isolates, I can answer most any question you have about them, but I know a good deal about most hallucinogenic mushrooms.

Some commonly believed mushroom facts that I consider myths:

--

        1. Cap/Stem potency ::

Many people seem to prefer a large quantity of caps to stems because they believe the caps are more potent. All fungal tissue of the mushroom (fruit, technically) are equivalent or, at most, negligibly different in potency.


       2. Strain potency (Cubensis) ::

Aren't those Penis Envies the strong Cubensis strain? No, I have to echo many mycologists that, "a cube is a cube is a cube," at least when it comes to strain. The factors that determine potency are:

--Mushroom species (P. Cubensis, Cyanescens, Azurescens, etc)

--Growing conditions (Proper harvest times, proper moisture levels, proper sterilization, strategic exposure to stessors, use of nutritive substrate [WELL-composted manure IS an ideal part of this!])

--Age of mushrooms since harvest. Mushrooms do degrade over time, but properly stored in a cool, dark, and dry environment they can last at least 6 months with no noticeable loss in potency. My mushrooms tend to make it to your mailbox about a week after harvest.

--Mushroom isolate. I can best explain what an isolate is by comparing the categorization to that of humans. Consider Homo Sapiens, they can be differentiated by race/ethnicity as well as individuals (persons). Simplified, A Cubensis strain is equivalent to a race of people, which are all of the same species. An isolate is equivalent to a person who is of a race or ethnicity. Just as a person of any race can rise to greatness, so can an isolate of any strain. With some work, an isolate can be taken from a multi-genetic sample of fungal tissue. It's just as hard of a labor to find a stellar isolate as it is to find a perfect actor for a screenplay. It must be auditioned for out of many possible individuals, and the actor (isolate) must not only be talented (potent), but suited for the role (growing conditions) as well. Many growers do not use isolates as they can be somewhat difficult to isolate properly. All of my mushrooms are grown from 4 stellar isolates at this time.


      3. Well, don't mushrooms make your brain bleed ::

Of course they do! That's why we love em so much. You can avoid the brain bleeding by standing on your head throughout the entire duration of the trip, I even drink the tea upside-down now, just to be safe :)

Rocker
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Gary Oak on April 26, 2012, 08:36 am
+1

That was pretty informative, I definitely learned a thing or two. After hearing that third one though, I think I'll stay away from them now. :o I have no idea they made my brain bleed, yikes!
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: dman420 on April 26, 2012, 10:21 am
rockers awesome! if you havent tried his product you should go for it. great trips everytime.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: war on April 26, 2012, 10:30 am
He's kidding about the brain bleeding thing, if mushrooms made your brain bleed not too many of us would be posting on these boards  8)
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Gary Oak on April 26, 2012, 10:40 am
He's kidding

As am I young padawan...as am I. ;)
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: war on April 26, 2012, 11:00 am
He's kidding

As am I young padawan...as am I. ;)

Ahhh, you got me haha :) 

In all honesty after reading OP and then your seemingly serious response I did some massive googling before realizing it was just a joke...

live and learn  ;D
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: cerealbox on April 26, 2012, 11:31 pm
It only prevents bleed if you stand on your head and drink GREEN tea (because of antioxidants).
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: divinechemicals on April 26, 2012, 11:41 pm
But Rocker, I hear that mushrooms make you jump out windows or peel off your skin! You mean my high school health class lied to me?? The system is broken!

Thanks for your continued contributions to the community Rocker. Your professionalism and customer service (not to mention your amazing product) should be an inspiration to all.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Rocker on April 27, 2012, 04:52 am
It only prevents bleed if you stand on your head and drink GREEN tea (because of antioxidants).

Speaking of antioxidants, does anyone here every drink orange juice or take vitamin C tablets prior to or during a trip to intensify it?

I've heard of many doing this, but I'm not sure if it actually has any real effects. Anyone notice an intensification of the trip due to vitamin C?

Not sure if that's just a myth too

Rocker
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: matchpoint on April 27, 2012, 04:57 am
I've personally experienced an increase in the strength of the come-up of the trip when I drink orange juice before and during eating your shrooms, Rocker.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Kurtz on April 27, 2012, 08:13 am
I doubt the vitamin C on its own has any effect, I think its just the acidity of the orange juice (ascorbic + citric acid). The orange juice acidifies your stomach, making the alkaloids more soluble in your gastric juices. Also, acidic conditions convert psilocybin (prodrug) to psilocin (active drug), and psilocin is more stable in acids. All this results in the alkaloids being absorbed faster.

If you want a faster, stronger and shorter mushroom high, grind up some mushrooms real fine and soak them in key lime juice for 20 minutes, then drink 8)


Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Appa on April 27, 2012, 08:19 am
This thread is a great idea, Rocker.  It's always nice to see a vendor who is informed about their product and is eager to educate their customers.

I just wanted to throw in a few comments as a somewhat "expert" in the field; I am a formally trained mycologist in the physical world, and have cultivated Psilocybe cubensis for many years as a hobby.  I hope you don't mind!


Many people seem to prefer a large quantity of caps to stems because they believe the caps are more potent. All fungal tissue of the mushroom (fruit, technically) are equivalent or, at most, negligibly different in potency.

This is correct.  The entire fungus*, both the above-ground fruiting body (mushroom) and subterranean thallus ("roots") are comprised of the same material: mycelium.  Mycelium is an intricately branching network of hyphae, which are long, thin "threads" of cells attached end-to-end (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mycelium has some great pictures).  Each of the individual cells of psilocybin-containing mushrooms theoretically contain similar amounts of the alkaloids, including those in both the stem and cap.

*Actually, I'm pretty confident the spores don't contain alkaloids, and since they are borne on the underside of the cap, that would technically make the cap negligibly less potent by weight.  themoreyouknow.jpg


Aren't those Penis Envies the strong Cubensis strain? No, I have to echo many mycologists that, "a cube is a cube is a cube," at least when it comes to strain. The factors that determine potency are:
--Mushroom species (P. Cubensis, Cyanescens, Azurescens, etc)
--Growing conditions (Proper harvest times, proper moisture levels, proper sterilization, strategic exposure to stessors, use of nutritive substrate [WELL-composted manure IS an ideal part of this!])

Again, correct.  I know of no formal studies, but I have never seen any evidence that PE (or other strains) are consistently measurably more potent.  My personal subjective experience supports this, though that's only anecdotal.

I do want to point out, however, that manure is not necessarily required, and is not inherently "more" nutritious than another suitable substrate.  Other alternatives include straw, coconut coir, sugarcane bagasse, and used coffee grinds, just to name a few.  I have seen no evidence that these substrates produce inferior potency in P. cubensis.
Despite all this, well-composted manure is an excellent, perhaps even ideal, choice of substrate: it is often free, it has a great texture, and it doesn't usually require much pH adjusting or other fiddly bits.  And, contrary to the connotations of "manure," well-composted manure is neither stinky nor any more unclean than average dirt.


An isolate is equivalent to a person who is of a race or ethnicity...  It's just as hard of a labor to find a stellar isolate as it is to find a perfect actor for a screenplay. It must be auditioned for out of many possible individuals, and the actor (isolate) must not only be talented (potent), but suited for the role (growing conditions) as well.

I enjoyed this explanation, it makes the concept simple to grasp.  It also helps things come full circle: if you think of an isolate as an individual, it's easy to see how environmental conditions can negatively affect the performance of an otherwise "perfect" isolate.  If I were to clone a person many times and try to raise some of the clones in my basement on only sea salt and hard liquor, they would be much less healthy and physically fit than those clones allowed balanced meals and sunlight, despite all being genetically identical.


Well, don't mushrooms make your brain bleed ::

Of course they do! That's why we love em so much. You can avoid the brain bleeding by standing on your head throughout the entire duration of the trip, I even drink the tea upside-down now, just to be safe :)

:D You forgot to mention this only works if you tie a ribbon around each of your toes.


does anyone here every drink orange juice or take vitamin C tablets prior to or during a trip to intensify it?

I've heard of many doing this, but I'm not sure if it actually has any real effects. Anyone notice an intensification of the trip due to vitamin C?

The crew over at the Shroomery call this the "lemon tek."  Supposedly, if you powder dried mushrooms and soak them in lemon juice for a bit before drinking the whole mess down, the trip is significantly more intense, but shorter in duration.  Some people claim it's the vitamin C's antioxidant effect, others profess that it is caused by the low pH of the juice.  For some reason I have never tried this, but I guess I should, for science.  By that I mean a proper "experiment": same amount of powdered mushroom from the same batch, once soaked in lemon juice, and a few weeks later (or earlier), another attempt using only water.  It wouldn't be a very real experiment, since so many factors go into a trip, and my subjective judgment of potency could easily be impaired by both the intoxication and loss of memory between experiences.  Still, it'd be better than just speculation that could just be placebo, right?  I could at least (mostly) objectively judge duration by using a clock.  If anyone chooses to do this before I get around to it, please update us!
EDIT: While I was typing, Kurtz made some points about the bioavailability and stability of psilocybin/psilocin.  I'm not a chemist, and Psilocybe spp. isn't my specialty, so I can't corroborate.  It's some really interesting-sounding information though, I'll have to do some reading tomorrow.


my grower...

If your grower is at all interested, I'd love to talk shop sometime.  It's always cool to come across a fellow myco-enthusiast!
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: cerealbox on April 27, 2012, 10:50 pm
can you OD on shrooms?
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Appa on April 27, 2012, 11:10 pm
can you OD on shrooms?

I assume you mean "can you die from overdosing."  Technically, yes, psilocybin has a measured LD50.  In rats and mice, it takes about 280mg/kg injected IV to kill half of the individuals.  In rabbits, the LD50 is only 12.5mg/kg.  To illustrate what this means, a rat would need to eat over 1600g of psilocybin-containing mushrooms.

Info stolen from here: shroomery.org/9122/How-many-dried-mushrooms-would-I-have-to-eat-to-die-from-an-overdose-of-psilocybin
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Rocker on April 28, 2012, 01:13 am
My grower helped me with some info to write this out:

I do want to point out, however, that manure is not necessarily required, and is not inherently "more" nutritious than another suitable substrate.  Other alternatives include straw, coconut coir, sugarcane bagasse, and used coffee grinds, just to name a few.  I have seen no evidence that these substrates produce inferior potency in P. cubensis.
Despite all this, well-composted manure is an excellent, perhaps even ideal, choice of substrate: it is often free, it has a great texture, and it doesn't usually require much pH adjusting or other fiddly bits.  And, contrary to the connotations of "manure," well-composted manure is neither stinky nor any more unclean than average dirt.

Absolutely, you are correct. I guess the term "ideal" would be subjective. My statement was intended to acknowledge the fact that my mushrooms do contain manure as a component. There are many nutrition-rich substrates that can produce great results. Less nutritive substrates (Brown rice flour and other grains typically used as spawn) tend to produce smaller and less potent fruits when used as a fruiting substrate.

The crew over at the Shroomery call this the "lemon tek."  Supposedly, if you powder dried mushrooms and soak them in lemon juice for a bit before drinking the whole mess down, the trip is significantly more intense, but shorter in duration.  Some people claim it's the vitamin C's antioxidant effect, others profess that it is caused by the low pH of the juice.  For some reason I have never tried this, but I guess I should, for science.  By that I mean a proper "experiment": same amount of powdered mushroom from the same batch, once soaked in lemon juice, and a few weeks later (or earlier), another attempt using only water.  It wouldn't be a very real experiment, since so many factors go into a trip, and my subjective judgment of potency could easily be impaired by both the intoxication and loss of memory between experiences.  Still, it'd be better than just speculation that could just be placebo, right?  I could at least (mostly) objectively judge duration by using a clock.  If anyone chooses to do this before I get around to it, please update us!
EDIT: While I was typing, Kurtz made some points about the bioavailability and stability of psilocybin/psilocin.  I'm not a chemist, and Psilocybe spp. isn't my specialty, so I can't corroborate.  It's some really interesting-sounding information though, I'll have to do some reading tomorrow.

Very Interesting

If your grower is at all interested, I'd love to talk shop sometime.  It's always cool to come across a fellow myco-enthusiast!

Yeah, Grower likes to stay insulated and away from this end of things, but if you had any specific question you wanted me to relay, I would be happy to. He has a formal degree.

I assume you mean "can you die from overdosing."  Technically, yes, psilocybin has a measured LD50.  In rats and mice, it takes about 280mg/kg injected IV to kill half of the individuals.  In rabbits, the LD50 is only 12.5mg/kg.  To illustrate what this means, a rat would need to eat over 1600g of psilocybin-containing mushrooms.

Info stolen from here: shroomery.org/9122/How-many-dried-mushrooms-would-I-have-to-eat-to-die-from-an-overdose-of-psilocybin

Yep, more specifically, if a sample of 100 rats each ate 1600g (~3.5 Lbs of shrooms to perhaps a 12 Oz. rat), 50 would survive and 50 would die due to the psilocybin. I do not believe there is a documented case of an OD on Psilocybe species mushrooms alone.

But, It's very possible to take a huge dose and puke and get very scared and make some odd judgments though. Some people I've heard have taken 10g of my mushrooms at once and had a lovely time, but I fucking recommend against that.

Rocker

Edit for spelling
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: Appa on April 28, 2012, 01:36 am
Yep, more specifically, if a sample of 100 rats each ate 1600g (~3.5 Lbs of shrooms to perhaps a 12 Oz. rat), 50 would survive and 50 would die due to the psilocybin. I do not believe there is a documented case of an OD on Psilocybe species mushrooms alone.

But, It's very possible to take a huge dose and puke and get very scared and make some odd judgments though. Some people I've heard have taken 10g of my mushrooms at once and had a lovely time, but I fucking recommend against that.

Geez, I just pictured an absurdly bloated rat that had just eaten nearly 5x its body weight in mushrooms.  If this is extrapolated out to humans, an 80kg person would need to eat over 350kg!  Clearly, injection would be the only possible method.

I can't even hardly move my body or see the room I'm in on greater than 6g of mushrooms, I can't imagine being able to act on any bad judgments on 10 whole grams!  But I do know people who do that kinda thing, so to each his own.  Just be careful, friends.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: seuss on April 28, 2012, 03:12 am
how about the stupid myth stating that u trip from magic mushrooms because its actually food poisoning. countless times i tell people theyre tripping because of the psychoactive ingredient psilocin, not because the mushrooms are poisonous... i mean shit, do people who eat e. coli contaminated salads start to have psychedelic experiences? i think not.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: dkmonk on April 28, 2012, 10:16 am
Not sure if this is a myth, but just something that I think a lot of unexperience people assume before taking them.

Mushrooms aren't something to eat for your first time and go to a party or get fucked up on. They are very powerful when it comes to affecting your thought and emotions, so being in a completely new place with a new people or even familiar people will be confusing and overwhelming. Something could happen or be said and you don't know what is going on it can really throw you for a loop and once things start going bad they usually just escalate since your mind now thinks that way. It could be as simple as someone saying somehting to you and you not understanding then feeling like they are mad at you or think your not smart. That could turn into everyone hates you and you are not welcome there.

The less trips the better in my opinion, so instead of on the weekend with a small dose I would do it every few months in higher doses as this will give you way more in depth trip where you actually gain important things/lessons from it.

Some may disagree with me, and that is fine, but if you are only using them for pure recreational then you are missing out on their potential. Eat them once in the dark by yourself, and really meditate and focus on yourself and you will have a very unforgettable mind blowing experience.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: cerealbox on April 28, 2012, 11:19 am
how about the stupid myth stating that u trip from magic mushrooms because its actually food poisoning. countless times i tell people theyre tripping because of the psychoactive ingredient psilocin, not because the mushrooms are poisonous... i mean shit, do people who eat e. coli contaminated salads start to have psychedelic experiences? i think not.
That's a good one. Ran into that myself recently. Couldn't convince the person otherwise.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: seuss on April 28, 2012, 11:59 am
how about the stupid myth stating that u trip from magic mushrooms because its actually food poisoning. countless times i tell people theyre tripping because of the psychoactive ingredient psilocin, not because the mushrooms are poisonous... i mean shit, do people who eat e. coli contaminated salads start to have psychedelic experiences? i think not.
That's a good one. Ran into that myself recently. Couldn't convince the person otherwise.

u cant convince them otherwise because they're gullible morons who havent the slightest clue of what they're talking about. i've met folks like that, who believe traces of lsd are lodged in the spine, and could be dislodged years later, causing a random trip. or the infamous glass of orange juice myth -- that one is alive and well. The same people dont have a problem doing opioids or coke though, which makes me think theyre just subconsciously afraid of exploring the depths of their own minds, and acknowledging themselves for who they truly are, so they have to buy into these stupid myths concerning psychedelics to protect their own egos.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: dkmonk on April 28, 2012, 12:33 pm
I just wanted to add that I have grown shrooms and it is very easy and fun hobby. I probably grew a few pounds in the very short time span I did. I didn't sell them, but ate a bunch and gave over a half pound away to a friend that was on hard times and needed money or something to sell to make money. I couldn't bring myself to sell them since I didn't really have any money invested and the amount I did I easily got back with eating and the enjoyment of growing them.

I have ate over 10 grams on multiple occasions by the way, and had one in particular very profound mystical experience that has changed the way I view things a little and probably will forever impact my life. I wouldn't give up that for anything and wish everyone could have some type of similar experience.

Shrooms really helped me put my life into a better perspective and allowed my mind to open up and realize some things, so that I could become a slightly better individual. They should be a medicine in my opinion.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: GaltRR on April 28, 2012, 02:24 pm
Thread on how PE are not like normal cubes.

http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/9582063/fpart/1/vc/1
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: ImJello1 on April 28, 2012, 03:05 pm
I don't think shrooms make your brain bleed, seems like another stupid myth started. Can you provide any studies that proves that?(Not disagreeing just curiosity. A lot of people think LSD can cause flashbacks and stays in your spine. The flashbacks are caused by a disorder and the spine thing is an out right lie.
Title: Re: A Discussion of Myths Surrounding Psilocybin-containing Mushrooms
Post by: dkmonk on April 28, 2012, 03:10 pm
You are confused we are saying shrooms DON'T make your brain bleed. The are very innocuous.