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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: blackflash8686 on April 18, 2013, 08:40 pm

Title: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: blackflash8686 on April 18, 2013, 08:40 pm
Stole this from a drug forum. lots of info hope it hasn't been posted here before but enjoy and stay safe!

MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine) is thought to be potentially neurotoxic due to free radicals (atoms or molecules which have an unpaired electron) created as a result of the neurological actions of MDMA. The neurotoxicity of MDMA is still being debated. There are many studies which conclude that MDMA is neurotoxic (the extent of which is determined by dose, rate of use, and other factors), and there are probably just as many studies which conclude that it is not. The neurotoxicity of MDMA is still a theory, as exactly how MDMA works is also not known. Until a legitimately conclusive study is published, users must decide for themselves. Either way, because there is strong evidence that MDMA is potentially neurotoxic, it is a good idea to practice some sort of harm reduction. A great technique to combat possible unwanted acute and chronic neurological, emotional, and/or physical detoriation of the mind and body is called loading.

Loading in the context of MDMA use is the practice of taking natural or synthetic supplements before (pre-loading), during, and/or after (post-loading) an MDMA session in order to better prepare your mind and body for the experience.

The most widely accepted theory for MDMA-induced neurotoxicity concerns damage caused by dopamine, a neurotransmitter which plays a huge part in attention, motor function, and pleasure, among many others. The euphoria experienced during an MDMA session is caused by an increase in the release of serotonin, another neurotransmitter involved in the regulation of mood, appetite, sleep cycles, and more. MDMA's mechanism of action is complicated to anyone unfamiliar with general neuroscience, and again is not fully understood, but the end result of ingesting MDMA causes an increased concentration of serotonin in synapses (spaces between nerve cells). This results in the characteristic euphoria, empathy, and general love that most users experience.

The brain is not built to deal with MDMA. Normally, serotonin concentrations inside and outside of a nerve cell are relatively constant. MDMA causes a depletion of serotonin. This is where the neurotoxicity begins. After serotonin is depleted, serotonin transporters, which normally bring serotonin back into the nerve cell after it has done its job, are empty. As a result, somehow dopamine gets brought into the cell by the transporters.

Dopamine alone is toxic to serotonin cells. More importantly, the breakdown of dopamine inside the cells is what causes the toxicity. Normally when serotonin is taken back (reuptake) into the cell from the synapse, it is metabolized (broken down) into smaller molecules and recycled to make new serotonin. When dopamine enters the serotonin cell, it too is metabolized. These metabolites, however are toxic to the cells. Dopamine is broken down into hydrogen peroxide, a free radical, which oxidizes (combines with oxygen) parts of the cell which aren't meant to be oxidized. This produces oxidative stress. The brain, like every other thing on the planet, likes equilibrium (balance). This increase in oxidation causes problems, in MDMA's case perhaps cell death.

A large part of loading concerns the ingestion of anti-oxidants, which are exactly what they sound like. Anti-oxidants work to inhibit oxidation. The theory behind this is that taking anti-oxidant supplements can decrease or even eliminate the excess oxidation caused by MDMA, providing neuroprotection (protecting the nerve cells from toxicity).

Another theory is that some MDMA metabolites may be toxic... but that is a whole different story.

That is a lot to take in. Hopefully it makes sense, there is a lot of science but I tried to clarify anything which probably is unfamiliar to most people.

On to the real deal.

Pre-loading

The idea behind pre-loading is to elevate the level of antioxidants available to the brain before MDMA causes increased oxidation, hopefully combatting it before it even begins to hapen. In addition to antioxidants, it is a good idea to take some other supplements to combat the less dangerous but still harmful side effects of MDMA.
Here is a list of common supplements used during pre-loading:

Antioxidants

Vitamin C (ascorbic acid)
Sources: Countless generic Vitamin C pills or multivitamins, many fresh fruits and vegetables
Recommended dose: 500mg-2000mg
How it works: an antioxidant, will help reduce oxidation. Thought to recycle unused Vitamin E.
Notes: a water-soluble vitamin, any excess will be excreted in the urine. However this means it doesn't stay in the body very long. Most of it is gone after 3 or 4 hours. This is why it should be taken multiple times during an MDMA session. However, as an acid, too much can cause stomach problems (ie diarrhea, indigestion, heartburn). An overdose is extremely unlikely, but too much can cause side effects which will make the experience less enjoyable. A good idea is to pre-load with 1000mg and post-load with the same, although some users find it produces nausea if taken during post-load. Know how your body will react before supplementing during an actual session. In addition, ascorbic acid is obviously acidic, and a more acidic environment is not conducive to MDMA absorption. However, my dog has never noticed the slightest decrease in MDMA awesomeness due to taking this supplement.

Vitamin E (tocopherol)
Sources: supplements, some foods such as eggs, avocado, spinach, some nuts
Recommended dose: 200-400 IU
How it works: an anti-oxidant, will prevent oxidation.
Notes: a fat-soluble vitamin, it leaves the body much more slowly than a water-soluble vitamin (ie ascorbic acid). Risk of overdose is higher, especially since supplementing usually involves taking more than the recommended dosage. It is probably quite safe to go to at least 1000 IU a day, and the risk of overdose is significantly decreased if the vitamin is only taken for one day (ie for one MDMA session and not as a continued high-dose supplement). Too much Vitamin E can cause stomach problems, fatigue, and headache. Again, test yourself before experimenting during an actual session.

Grape seed extract
Sources: grapes (duh), supplements
Recommended dose: 50-100mg
How it works: contains antioxidants, will reduce oxidation.
Notes: Grape seed extract is a very long lasting antioxidant, a half life (how long until half of it is broken down or out of the body) of about 7 hours. Therefore it is really only necessary to take this during pre-loading as an MDMA session usually only lasts about 6 hours. Side effects (quite uncommon): headache, nausea, stomach pain. Theoretically could increase the risk of internal bleeding, so be careful if you have any health issues such as a bleeding disorder.

ALA (alpha-lipoic acid)
Sources: red meats*, yeast, supplements
Recommended dose: 600mg-3000mg
How it works: an antioxidant, will reduce oxidation.
Notes: water and fat soluble, a very strong antioxidant as it can work pretty much everywhere. Short half life.

Coenzyme Q10
Sources: some fish, ie mackerel, sardines, salmon, tuna; supplements
Recommended dose: 50mg-300mg
How it works: an antioxidant, will reduce oxidation. Necessary for healthy mitochondrial (mitochondria are a cell's source of energy) functioning.
Notes: fat soluble, half life of over a day, therefore only necessary to take during pre-loading. At higher doses, effectiveness decreases as dosage increases.

Other supplements

Magnesium
Source: green vegetables, some legumes, nuts, and whole grains; supplements
Recommended dose: 400-1000mg
How it works: A common side effect of stimulants (including MDMA) is bruxism (jaw-clenching). Magnesium helps relax muscles.
Notes: Be careful with dosing this one. Excess magnesium can cause diarrhea and abdominal cramping. Couple with dehydration this can make for some nasty side effects. Again, determine what an acceptable dose is for yourself before mixing with MDMA. No one wants to have to sit on the toilet all night when they could be out on the dance floor.

5-HTP (5-hydroxytryptophan)/trytophan
Sources: 5-HTP can only really be found in supplements. It is the precursor (the chemical involved in the reaction which produces another chemical, ie serotonin) to serotonin. Tryptophan, the immediate precursor to 5-HTP, can be found in turkey, dairy products, eggs, nuts, and some fruits (notably bananas, which are delicious).
Recommended dose: Tryptophan supplementation is much less common than 5-HTP supplementation, so that is what will be discussed. Why supplement with the precursor to the precursor when you can skip a step and make it easier for your body? As stated previously, 5-HTP is the precursor to serotonin. Therefore it needs to be converted to serotonin by the body before it has any effect. It takes a few hours for this conversion to happen, and only taking it during preloading the day of a session won't have a significant effect. 5-HTP has been shown to increase serotonin levels in mice, and presumably this would help with depression... but depression is (most likely) a result of constant low levels of serotonin, therefore 5-HTP should be doses continuously also. It is recommended to take 100-200mg a day for at least a few days prior to the experience.
How it works: Basically provides more raw material for the production of serotonin.
Notes: Artificially increasing serotonin levels may put a user at risk of developing serotonin syndrome (basically a serotonin overdose- NOT a good thing) when combined with MDMA. There is really only anecdotal evidence concerning this supplement. Many users have reported no effects, others have reported ill effects, and some stand by the claim that it definitely contributes to the MDMA experience. Only you can decide. Personally, my dog would not recommend bothering with this one at all during pre-loading to be safe... definitely go for it during post-loading though, no risk of potentially fatal side effects. One study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7934616), showed neuroprotective effects, but this is about the only publication my dog could find.

Antacids (ie Tums, Rolaids)
Sources: Don't bother with trying to eat foods which have anti-acidic properties. Just buy some Tums.
Recommended dose: 400-2000mg (perhaps 2 or 3 Tums is a good choice)
How it works: This is tricky. Acidity inhibits the absorption of amphetamines. The point of taking antacids is to reduce the acidity of the stomach, increasing absorption of the MDMA. Tums and Rolaids both contain the compound CaCO3, which (my dog believes) breaks down into Ca+2 and CO3-2 (a weak base) in the stomach. However, like the brain, the stomach also works hard to maintain equilibrium (in this case a very acidic environment), therefore if one eats a bunch of basic (opposite of acidic) substances, the stomach will work harder to bring the acidity level back to normal, perhaps actually momentarily increasing stomach acidity. Antacids containing carbonate (ie the CO3 in Tums and Rolaids) usually take about 30 minutes to begin doing their duty, therefore it is recommended to take them with the MDMA rather than a small time before. My dog hasn't had enough experience with MDMA to conclude whether this has any real effect or not, but perhaps other users can offer some input.

Grapefruit juice
Sources: grapefruits... or grapefruits in juice form.
Recommended dose: A big tall glass.
How it works: It is generally accepted that grapefruit inhibits an enzyme (a substance which helps a reaction take place) which breaks down many recreational drugs, ie MDMA... but this is wrong. Grapefruit juice does potentiate MDMA (among many other drugs), but by a different mechanism. My dog won't get into the details as it would twist many people brains, but here is a great thread Paracelsus posted about the subject if one would like to delve further into it: http://www.drugs-forum.com/forum/sho...apefruit+juice
Notes: While grapefruit juice can definitely increase MDMA bioavailability (a measure of the amount of a drug which actually contributes to a physiological response), it may be counteracted by the fact that grapefruit juice is very acidic (about a pH of 3 on a scale of 1-14, 1 being the most acidic). My dog hasn't read anything specific about this dilemma, and he hasn't had enough experience to make a conclusion. Again, who knows what's best for you? You do! Be the guinea pig.

Piracetam
Sources: supplements
Recommended dose: 1000mg-4000mg a day for days or weeks before an MDMA session
How it works: The exact mechanism of action of piracetam, a drug originally developed to slow the progression of such mentally deteriorating diseases as Alzheimer's or alcoholism, is not completely known. It is thought to enhance cognition and memory, as well as increase blood flow in the brain. Many experiences posted on Erowid champion the use of this drug, claiming it enhances the experience, perhaps reduces tolerance. My dog couldn't find any publications on this subject and doesn't expect to... piracetam is a relatively new and understudied drug, most people have never even heard of it. My dog says that he has personally tried this (dosing for 4 or 5 days before an MDMA experience) and can say his third roll was just as good if not better than his first, both were similar doses. He has only had three though so cannot give a real conclusion. ONLY YOU HOLD THE POWER TO DECIDE.

There are MANY more possible supplements. This is merely a list of the most common, perhaps most effective ones. Any combination of supplements can be taken. Perhaps one is sensitive to magnesium but always has a sore jaw after an experience... look for another supplement which can induce muscle relaxation, or simply bring a pacifier (if you're into that... my dog thinks these are best given to babies)! Can't afford expensive anti-oxidants like ALA or grapeseed extract? Eat an orange. Guinea pigs!

H2O (WATER!)
This is the most important supplement of all. Drink lots of it! All the time! MDMA causes dehydration and increased heart rate (the heart is working super hard), dancing causes dehydration (and works the heart even harder), and those who drink alcohol with MDMA (which my dog hears is quite common... doesn't understand why anyone would want to cloud the experience) are dehydrating themselves even more. This can be a dangerous combination. Drink at least a 20oz bottle or so every hour, especially if a guinea pig is dancing really hard. What about too much water? Risk of hyponatremia (basically a water overdose) is quite low, but still possible. In fact, in terms of deaths associated with MDMA this is really one of the only things to worry about, aside from polydrug (more than one drug) use and dehydration. Possible hyponatremia is easily combatted by drinking something with electrolytes (ie Gatorade) which will not disturb the body's salt balance as much.

Sample pre-loading regimen

(my dog's ideal recipe)
Every day for approximately a week or more prior to the experience:
4000mg Piracetam (2000mg 2x a day)
Anywhere from 1 hr to at the time of MDMA ingestion (MDMA usually takes approximately 30-60 minutes to work its magic):
1000mg Vitamin C
400 IU Vitamin E
50 mg Co-Q10
600mg ALA
400mg magnesium (too much hurts his tummy)
And finally, 2-3 tums at the time or about half an hour prior to MDMA ingestion (my dog proposes that if he takes the Tums 30 minutes before ingestion, the levels of base will be relatively high when he ingests the MDMA)

Guinea pigs: see what works best for you! Theoretical knowledge is great, but experience is just as important.



Post-loading

There are really two "post-loads"... my dog defines the first as perhaps 3-6 hours after MDMA ingestion, and the second as the day/night (depending on when the MDMA was taken) and a few days after the experience.

First post-load (about 3-6 hours after MDMA ingestion, or as soon as possible after that)

Since after 3-6 hours MDMA is still potentially toxifying nerve cells, many of the supplements should still be used. Antioxidants (in the same, higher, or lower doses- YOU DECIDE) are still a good idea, just be careful with fat-solubles such as Vitamin E... chances of something terrible happening are miniscule, but it is still good to practice harm reduction of harm reduction! Some users complain of stomach cramps when post-loading with Vitamin C (talk to your guinea pig). Magnesium is also a good idea if guinea pigs think they are having jaw issues. Now, my dog thinks, is the best time for 5-HTP supplementation. As serotonin is quite depleted, giving the body more raw serotonin material can only help. Perhaps 100-200mg at this time, and more the following few days (discussed soon).

If one's guinea pig has it available, perhaps think about something like Prozac (fluoxetine), or Celexa (citalopram), both SSRI's (selective-serotonin reuptake inhibitor). SSRI's have a high (ie higher than dopamine) affinity (attraction) for serotonin transporters. Since the theory behind MDMA neurotoxicity concerns the reuptake of dopamine after serotonin depletion, perhaps fluoxetine can prevent this reuptake, as when it binds to serotonin transporters it sticks and it is difficult for things to get back into the cell (hence why it is used to treat depression- it inhibits the reuptake of serotonin [which regulates mood], increasing the serotonin concentration in the synapse).

DO NOT take SSRI's before using MDMA. Well, if your guinea pig wants to, go ahead. But he probably won't feel much, if anything.

Most importantly, hydrate! My dog thinks MDMA and humans are a match made in heaven, but physiologically they don't really like each other. Give your heart a helping hand by replenishing it with delicious liquids.

Sample first post-load regimen:

(again my dog's ideal)
1000mg Vitamin C
400 IU Vitamin E
400mg magnesium if his jaw is uncontrollable
600mg ALA

Second post-load (after returning to baseline and the day after)

Now the experience is over. But it was awesome right? You had fun, but your body and brain didn't. Depending on what time it is and whether you have an appetite, eat a nutritious (and large) meal. Spoil yourself, but spoil yourself with classy things. Eat some fish (omega fatty acids promote brain health), a pound of salad, a fresh fruit smoothie, etc. It's not that hard to make a great tasting meal which also helps your body. My dog enjoys a huge bowl of whole grain cereal and bananas, plus a plateful of veggies and some sort of protein (but he is a vegetarian and has some pretty odd eating habits).

Most likely it is too late to eat/you aren't hungry. Go to sleep! Sleep well. Again, spoil yourself. It's ok to live a little, but good things come at a price... your body did all the work, now give it some rest.

In the morning, keep the nutritious mindset. Eat a large breakfast, stay hydrated, and continue to be healthy for the rest of the day and the next few days. Maybe even do some exercise! The only supplement my dog would suggest for the days after an experience is 5-HTP, at the doses recommended in previous sections of this post.

Sample second post-load regimen

A LOT OF FOOD. Food at night, food in the morning, food all day. Drink a ton too! Perhaps start a few days of 5-HTP supplementation, especially if your guinea pig thinks he might suffer a case of the Tuesday blues.


Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: thelovedragon on April 18, 2013, 11:53 pm
+1 for posting this.
Just the info I was looking for.
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: xpat on April 19, 2013, 12:03 am
big ups, thanks!
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: b0lixtrader on April 19, 2013, 12:10 am
Originally posted by AnimusVox.  Another good read here.

"Please, for the sake of your health and cognitive functioning, spread your rolls out at least 2-3 months. The reasoning is simple. MDMA releases then depletes serotonin in vast amounts and inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. Taking MDMA prior to this restoration process is altogether stupid. Your body's reproduction of serotonin is already inhibited and by taking the substance during this healing period will start the entire process over.

MDMA's mechanisms work as follows:
Quote
MDMA binds to the SERT and reverses it causing a dump of serotonin. The hypothalamus directs the release of cortisol (an 800% increase) and ADH as a defense response to combat the serotonin release. This increases the speed at which serotonin is metabolized in the brain.

This is the "come-up." A sharp spike in serotonin characterized by a rise in cortisol levels. Skyrocketing cortisol levels are responsible for the come-up anxiety many users describe. And the rise in serotonin can sometimes cause nausea or bowel problems.

Next: Serotonin is an inhibitor of dopamine in 3 out of 4 pathways. The brain-wide rise in serotonin levels is clogging up dopamine pathways and causing a buildup. Serotonin and cortisol levels both spike and begin to fall. When serotonin drops, the dopamine pathways open up and a rush of dopamine is released. Imagine a dam breaking. And with the rush of dopamine comes a release of oxytocin and prolactin into the bloodstream a la the hypothalamus.

This is the "peak." Characterized by a fall in serotonin and a rush of dopamine in the mesolimbic pathway. The true 'magic' of MDMA is a systematic release of dopamine, prolactin, and oxytocin, not serotonin.

Dosing also plays a very large part in MDMA neurotoxicity as well, as it scales exponentially the more you take at a given time. With higher doses you are prone to hyperthermia and a decrease in antioxidant levels to deal with metabolites. While we lack the quantitative data for measuring the true damage done to a human due to obvious reasons, the neurotoxicity is very well established within mice and rats (see footnotes) and caution should be taken when choosing how much MDMA to ingest (1.5mg/Kg, more on that below).

While the choice to roll often is obviously at the user's discretion, the best experience is had by maintaining this healthy time frame and also following a few general guidelines.

Keep your body temperature LOW! Ensure that you do not overexert yourself when dancing as an increase in body temperature is the leading cause of MDMA induced neurotoxicity. As your body temperature rises, your body's natural process for creating antixodants is negatively affected and oxidative stress is increased, which leads to damage to your 5-HT axons. Take plenty of breaks when dancing so that you maintain a low body temperature.

Eat right and exercise. This is a no-brainer. The healthier you are, the better your body will be able metabolize MDMA.

Enjoy MDMA for what it is and don't utilize it to get intoxicated. It is meant to bring about an incredible experience that, for me at least, gives a profound outlook on life as a whole. Self control is a big part of this. Learn to resist the urge to take it, especially when under the influence of alcohol. The two really should NOT be combined. Respect the substance and it will respect you.

Know your dose and do not re-dose! The general rule of thumb for dosing pure MDMA is 1.5mg/Kg. Given you have no tolerance, this is an excellent guideline and should be practiced thoroughly. If need be, take a booster (typically half of your initial dose) no later than T+1:00/1:30! Any subsequent doses will only greatly increase neurotoxicity and make the negative effects much more profound.

Pre-load, post-load! Pre-load, post-load! This is CRITICAL and there is no reason not to do this as the vitamins are cheap and very effective. Antioxidants prior to your roll will largely alleviate neurotoxicity. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid are all phenomenal antioxidants. A few other notables to smooth out your roll are magnesium glycinate for bruxism (jaw clenching) and ginger root for nausea. It is typically advised to take these one hour prior to rolling. Following your roll (when you are COMPLETELY DONE in order to avoid serotonin syndrome, so ~6-7 hours after dosing), a moderate dose (1-200mg, don't overdo it people) of 5-HTP will help begin the restoration process. If available, taking an SSRI on your comedown is very beneficial as it will prevent the uptake of nasty metabolites. A multivitamin at the end of your roll is also phenomenal in all regards, and while you won't want to, EAT! EAT LOTS OF FOOD!  Pump your body with nutrients. You just exhausted your mind and body and it needs to refuel! Soups, fruits, and vegetables are great for the comedown and light on the stomach.

Stay hydrated but don't overdo it. This is the biggest 'duh' guideline, but it still needs to be reiterated. Drink a reasonable amount of water to compensate for whatever activity you're participating in, especially if you're dancing. Dehydration is not something you want to be playing with.

All in all, MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug and much care needs to be taken when experiencing it and it can be near completely harmless if all the proper caution is taken. Respect your substance, know your body, and know your dose."

Here are some great resources... (CLEARNET WARNING)

On neurotoxicity:

http://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-and-neurotoxicity
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=750
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/24/2/175

On supplements/SSRIs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2433425
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml
http://www.neurosoup.com/schedule1/mdmamainpage.htm

And of course, the main erowid MDMA page will inform you of everything I've told you!

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: thegalactica420 on April 19, 2013, 06:52 am

This is the "peak." Characterized by a fall in serotonin and a rush of dopamine in the mesolimbic pathway. The true 'magic' of MDMA is a systematic release of dopamine, prolactin, and oxytocin, not serotonin.


This is exactly what most people dont realize and what was missing from the OP. Its why no other drug even things like mda just dont have the same MDMA MAGIC!
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: upsidedownsex on April 19, 2013, 04:42 pm
Excellent Advice thanks. Subbing for future reference
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: polyphemusperception on April 19, 2013, 06:04 pm
I would also recommend this book by Julie Holland:
Ecstasy : The Complete Guide : A Comprehensive Look at the Risks and Benefits of MDMA

On Amazon for $20.
Title: Re: *PRE LOAD POST LOAD MDMA GUIDE*
Post by: smogmonster13 on April 21, 2013, 12:51 pm
An additional thought on Vitamin C, Mates. It's highly acidic in its ascorbic acid form and may interfere with absorption of MDMA. So as a preload, vitamin c may be undesirable. As a post-load it should work very well.

There is a fat-soluble form of vitamin c called Ascorbyl Palmitate which should work as a preload.

Thanks for all the information. Happy and safe rolling.