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Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: topshelf1 on June 27, 2013, 06:41 pm

Title: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: topshelf1 on June 27, 2013, 06:41 pm
I understand the mbb material is laminated consisting of several layers...including a metallic layer...which would probably show on x-ray if the package were by chance chosen or x-ray scrutiny...

Mylar I think is is just a polyester film (technical name BoPet...which stands for Biaxialy-oriented polyethylene terepthelate)...

wikipedia says it has gas and aroma Barrier properties...so I guess that is why it is of interest to us...?

I believe mylar can be heat sealed...with just a household iron...plus is readily available in lots of thicknesses...and is quite cheap...

So what is the breakdown between these two choices...?...it seems the mbb is much more aroma-proof and can defeat dogs...but it may not defeat the x-ray machine...although that's a small possibility since few packages are sent through x-ray...although I understand there is is some random choosing of packages involved..ie they don't have to be otherwise suspicious...

Thanks in advance to the experience pros here for any help they can offer a new vendor...(under a different "handle"...and my store is up but has not going live yet as I am still gearing up...

Regards,

Topper.

Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: onezero32 on June 27, 2013, 07:14 pm
I understand the mbb material is laminated consisting of several layers...including a metallic layer...which would probably show on x-ray if the package were by chance chosen or x-ray scrutiny...

Mylar I think is is just a polyester film (technical name BoPet...which stands for Biaxialy-oriented polyethylene terepthelate)...

wikipedia says it has gas and aroma Barrier properties...so I guess that is why it is of interest to us...?

I believe mylar can be heat sealed...with just a household iron...plus is readily available in lots of thicknesses...and is quite cheap...

So what is the breakdown between these two choices...?...it seems the mbb is much more aroma-proof and can defeat dogs...but it may not defeat the x-ray machine...although that's a small possibility since few packages are sent through x-ray...although I understand there is is some random choosing of packages involved..ie they don't have to be otherwise suspicious...

Thanks in advance to the experience pros here for any help they can offer a new vendor...(under a different "handle"...and my store is up but has not going live yet as I am still gearing up...

Regards,

Topper.

Good to see another vendor doing their research!

Technically Mylar is a type of moisture barrier and is quite good, it does prevent odour transmission a lot better than standard HDPE/LDPE vacuum bags however if you want the best, you'll want to get some moisture barrier bags that use foil as the barrier layer.

Neither of them will defeat x-ray machines although some vendors seem to believe using MBB's makes their package x-ray proof. That's nonsense as x-ray machines in the postal service and airports etc can penetrate dense metals (1cm thick in some cases)

You wouldn't want to make your package x-ray proof anyway because if they can't see whats inside, they're going to open it to find out.

All the best!
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: leaf on June 28, 2013, 03:51 pm
Good info, cheers
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: Iconoclastic on June 28, 2013, 04:11 pm
The x-ray part has always confused me about these bags too.  I've had numerous sources off the Road insist on using carbon paper in shipments to somehow get around x-rays.  This has always been for lsd which also confused me because it doesn't seem like an x-ray will show anything different about a piece of paper.  In fact, I've brought sheets through airport security numerous times without a second thought.

Can anyone explain that advantage of using carbon paper?  Wouldn't reflecting/altering the x-ray be MORE suspicious?
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: thyme on June 28, 2013, 08:22 pm
Someone's thinking carbon paper will block XR?
Ah, is THAT what it's been there for? I thought I was getting office-supply fetishist mail.

Not for blocking visualization of contents at this time. Perhaps in the relatively distant past, as these things go, and for blurring of outlines/changing of density... but does not appear to hold true now.

edited - links break, look it up.
from 2009
Quote
He said the drugs had been wrapped in carbon paper, which can make it harder to detect drugs with older types of X-ray machines, but which does not interfere with the state-of-the-art devices that Dubai Customs have been using since last year.
and another real-world example - note DOC format:  www.courts.ca.gov/opinions/nonpub/A134692.DOC
from 2011
Quote
Based on his own experience, Schag thought it was common for items of contraband, including controlled substances, to be shipped from Thailand black markets to United States addressees.  The package indicated it contained office materials, including stationary and paper clips but, based on an x-ray, it appeared to contain a large quantity of pills or tablets.  Schag opened the package to find two bags containing a total of 957 blue-colored pills labeled “Roche 10,” and later determined from a check of an online drug information website, “www.drugs.com,” that the pills were likely a form of Valium.  He also found several sheets of carbon paper inside the package.  Schag said it was common for people attempting to import and mail illegal contraband to use carbon paper to line the interior walls of the package in the belief that it would cause a package to bypass x-ray machine security checks. 

Seems to be used also if.... you're bodypacking and you're trying to change radiodensity.
hxxp://www.appliedradiology.com/Issues/2008/05/Articles/Radiology-of-body-packers--The-detection-of-internally-concealed-illegal-materials.aspx
with awesome pix of bodypacker innards.

Ooh, very nice jab by the authors. "Ethical questions also arise as the decision to perform tests is made by nonmedical personnel who base their decisions on a profiling system that has never been empirically validated."
Anyway, it comes up as a method to alter radiodensity (although not render opaque) in more recent radiology articles as well, but, as they keep spotting it, I think it's probably not on the A list.

Re: Mylar/Bopet -
I just had these up somewhere else re: radiopacity. Anyway - metalized film isn't radiopaque.
Also, a big opacity is NOT what you want. Lots of mixed items out there. Opaque items are much more noticeable.
links edited before they break


May want to see these if you haven't found them already, as far as which layers (metalized, siox, nylon, etc) are the aroma blocking layers/slow permeation - sorry to repost, had to find in prior posts here.
search for -
-- FLAVOR AND AROMA BARRIER PROPERTIES OF EVAL® RESINS
(This is industry sponsored, so bias alert.
See tables 4, 5, etc.)

-- Factors affecting permeation, sorption, and migration processes in package–product systems
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: dirtybiscuitzz718 on June 28, 2013, 08:31 pm
Good post thyme, +1.
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: Iconoclastic on June 29, 2013, 04:26 am
Thank you, thyme!  Carbon paper never really made sense to me.  But I've had three people I met in very different places all swear by it.  Strange how such purposeless practices perpetuate themselves  :P
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: thyme on June 29, 2013, 05:23 am
Those articles suggest that maybe it blurred outlines on plain films or less powerful machines.

OK, someone, next time you have to get an X-ray, put carbon paper in your pocket and let us know how it comes out!!!

Personally, I'm just happy to know I don't have an office-supply-fetish-mailer. I was waiting for my red Swingline stapler next.

I do appreciate the thought, however :)
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: Jack N Hoff on June 29, 2013, 05:25 am
I've used carbon paper and mylar to fool postal x-rays many many many times.  I've used it on hundreds of packages from "flagged" countries. :P
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: thyme on June 29, 2013, 06:07 am
I happily stand corrected, although surprised, having fogged too much film in the checked baggage over the years, and having seen XR inspection using multiplex bags in a production setting.

Are there images anywhere on the carbon paper, because I can't find them and it's making me crazy...

Oh, wow.
This is awesome.
hxxp://henke.lbl.gov/optical_constants/atten2.html

Combine with NIST tables for a good time. :)

Also, I'm looking now at images of XR through assorted MBB, antistatic bags, etc. Is the postal service using older technology? Or am I being typically clueless and missing something obvious?

Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: Jack N Hoff on June 29, 2013, 10:57 am
I'm guessing they use a weak type of x-ray for whatever reason because of course we all know that more powerful x-ray systems exist.
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: Iconoclastic on June 29, 2013, 06:01 pm
Wow, thyme you are just coming through with a treasure troves of amazing resources!!!  Thank you!  These are all fascinating!
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: TheFunGuy on June 29, 2013, 07:19 pm
So onezero32 mentioned that mylar is a good moisture and odor barrier but that the best is to have a barrier with foil. Can anyone answer why this would be? I've sent multiple items that don't have much of a smell in two layers of mylar and never had a problem but would mylar not be sufficient for sending something more along the line of weed that has a much stronger smell?
Title: Re: What's the difference between mylar and mbb ...?
Post by: topshelf1 on June 30, 2013, 07:03 pm

You wouldn't want to make your package x-ray proof anyway because if they can't see whats inside, they're going to open it to find out.

All the best!

I don't mind if the x-ray CAN see through the mbb...the thing I am worried about is i it can't...then...as you say...they will open it up to see what's inside...

I have my material well hidden and dispersed so am not worried about x-ray...EXCEPT for metallic bags that could obscure at least what inside...

I think I will go with mylar...

Regards,

Topper