Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: ShitPickle on January 11, 2012, 09:07 pm
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I'm totally new to this, but I do have a backround in IT and drug-dealing....and it seems like an unwarranted amount of paranoia about the "tracability" of bitcoins here. I mean, does anybody actually know what network analysis tools would allow for tracability and what legal framework would allow prosecution? Also, why would cops waste their time? In my experience, they'll go after bitcoin dealers and manufactures since they're lazy and don't know how to use computers. Is there even one known case of a buyer being prosecuted? I didn't find one. Also, bitcoins still seem legal. Can anybody explain the rational behind all this moving of bitcoins from wallet to wallet ect? Seems paranoid to me...
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- it would be very difficult to trace the exact coins made up of your transaction, they've already thought about this and is handled as best as it can.
- the obvious transaction that can be seen by banks etc are you transferring money to a "bitcoin dealer" unless you walked into a bank and deposited cash.
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Thanks for the quick response. Ya, I see how buying bitcoins from a bank account could be bad if they were illegal, but are they? I read a web-post stating that they'll be illegal in the US by mid-2012. Then I would be worried; but as a buyer, isn't following the minimal protocol (money service-> bitcoin dealer -> wallet) good enough? I just can't see them having the skills, time, money, or drive to hunt down people who are buying a gram here and there. Dealers have cause to be a bit paranoid, but I think they'd be more likely to get busted picking up a package at the post-office that's in their name and known to have drugs than through any other route. Am I alone in my thinking that LE would focus on making bitcoins illegal (mining, selling, etc) rather than bust buyers?
Also what's with the suggestions to use fake names? That seems like the most certain way to get busted: post-office won't deliver it and somehow determines drugs are inside, the person goes to pick it up, etc, etc.
Again, am I missing something or should I just use my real name and address but give it to the vender encrypted?
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Thanks for the quick response. Ya, I see how buying bitcoins from a bank account could be bad if they were illegal, but are they? I read a web-post stating that they'll be illegal in the US by mid-2012. Then I would be worried; but as a buyer, isn't following the minimal protocol (money service-> bitcoin dealer -> wallet) good enough? I just can't see them having the skills, time, money, or drive to hunt down people who are buying a gram here and there. Dealers have cause to be a bit paranoid, but I think they'd be more likely to get busted picking up a package at the post-office that's in their name and known to have drugs than through any other route. Am I alone in my thinking that LE would focus on making bitcoins illegal (mining, selling, etc) rather than bust buyers?
Also what's with the suggestions to use fake names? That seems like the most certain way to get busted: post-office won't deliver it and somehow determines drugs are inside, the person goes to pick it up, etc, etc.
Again, am I missing something or should I just use my real name and address but give it to the vender encrypted?
- i don't use a wallet.
- if bitcoins is made illegal, another will be invented to replace it..
- using fake names., it does work but depends on your circumstances and geo location; some vendors insist on a real name otherwise they hold no responsibility
nor should you ask them to compensate you in these situations. test this by sending a couple of letters to "yourself".
- its best to use a real name plus drop-box / PO box setup...
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No wallet and no tumbling? So something like Dwolla -> Mt.Gox -> buy from trustworthy dealer using encrypted PO box address should be OK? That sounds reasonable to me.
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Well on one side of the coin you can never be too careful. If you DO get caught, you don't want to be thinking, "Man, I should have been more paranoid."
But if you ask me, I think Dwolla->MtGox -> SR is probably just fine for 90% of the buyers on here. It's not illegal to send money to Dwolla, and its not illegal to buy bitcoins at Mt Gox. And after that, the trail gets mighty difficult to follow even if you take it directly to SR...
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excessive paranoia is destructive, it can lead to panic and prevent you from been constructive and doing right things. on another side - never ignore signs. signs are good tool to access the current situation and see if there is any real reasons to be paranoid. it may be quite difficult to separate two things real signs and reason to get paranoid form just mental aggravation. balancing between greed and fear I would take some buspiron it helps a lot to see clearer on the rainy day.
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Ya, I see what you guys are saying. I did almost get caught dealing a couple of times but that was always from being too stoned lol. After incidents like that I did kick myself, though. I guess I'll follow the basic security steps, if for no other reason then to make others here feel at ease. I can't wait to make my first purchase! Good bye two years of sobriety! wahahahhaha
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I thought this was some pageant contest: Miss Paranoia.
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I thought this was some pageant contest: Miss Paranoia.
I have seen one, but that was Drama Quin contest
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I think there is definitely an advantage to using the fake name on the PO box. Yes, youre correct it likely wont get delivered unless you go specifically add your fake business name to the PO box. You may be thinking, "well there goes the anonymity and/or deniability". And you would be correct. Yes, you just admitted to the PO that any deliveries to "ABC FakeCompany" are actually for you, BUT it's been leaked out that packages to a company name are less suspicious and less likely to get screened throughout the shipment process.
So even if your local PO has evidence that you admit to being "ABC FakeCompany" it helped fool every pair of eyes that dealt with your package along it's way, and that's worthwhile, imo.
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No wallet and no tumbling? So something like Dwolla -> Mt.Gox -> buy from trustworthy dealer using encrypted PO box address should be OK? That sounds reasonable to me.
This is how I do it, and knock on wood haven't ran into any issues yet. Even after a letter never arrived I just chalked it up to customs or a sticky fingered sorter and moved on. But as I've said before I did about 2 months of trolling the forums, reading as many posts as I could before I even thought of placing an order.
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I'm totally new to this, but I do have a backround in IT and drug-dealing....and it seems like an unwarranted amount of paranoia about the "tracability" of bitcoins here. I mean, does anybody actually know what network analysis tools would allow for tracability and what legal framework would allow prosecution? Also, why would cops waste their time? In my experience, they'll go after bitcoin dealers and manufactures since they're lazy and don't know how to use computers. Is there even one known case of a buyer being prosecuted? I didn't find one. Also, bitcoins still seem legal. Can anybody explain the rational behind all this moving of bitcoins from wallet to wallet ect? Seems paranoid to me...
I don't see how bitcoins could possibly be made illegal! What is a bitcoin? It's not legally defined as a currency, nor a commodity. "bitcoin manufacturers" ? bitcoins aren't manufactured, they're discovered - hence the term bitcoin miners"
Aside from that, if somehow in the US (or any country) they made it illegal to posses bitoins, one would simply have to store them in a wallet on a computer in a different country.
Contrary to popular belief, bitcoins are used for more for legal transactions than illegal ones!
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Bitcoins are untraceable because every user running the software downloads the same blockchain
so there is no way to differentiate users since the decrypting of your addresses are done on your computer and not exposed to the network.
If an attacker was on your local network and ARP poisoning and preforming packet analysis with something like tcpdump
they could possibly trace your outgoing payments by compare they sniffed block chain with the latest block chain.
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They're legal though.
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great thread, reasonable discourse
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It would take a lot to make them illegal. People have already pointed out that you could just "store" them in another country, and for that matter only use them in that country if you had to. We've also pointed out it's difficult (I don't think impossible) to trace them to some degree, it would just be a lot of work. But this is on the policing side of things, which bets the question.....
....how in the world would you even write the law? They can't get any 21st century technology laws correct on simple things (SOPA, misapplication of wire tap, DMCA). Would they really even bother to take this on? There would be so many loop holes and short comings, it would cause more problems than it would solve.
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Writing laws is a lot like writing code; there's bound to be load of bugs (loopholes) in the first draft, but they'll keep applying patches until it 'works' well enough. It really comes down to political will and public perception.
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I've never felt paranoid funding my account. The currency is tumbled so many times by SR itself, plus what pre-laundering the user can do. I do however see future problems, as BTC can be seen as an investment and subject to taxes.
It brings up the question: If you were under high-tech electronic surveillance, and known to be consistenly funding a Bitcoin account, could the changing balance of that account be proven to be transactions other than trades of zero gain? Anything over could be taxable, anything under could be considered an investment loss,but tracking the history of the BTC value fluctuations would rule that out, along with the fact that most people don't keep investing in a losing market. In a world where children are no longer allowed to set up neighborhood lemonade stands without filling out federal forms, anything is possible.
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Thanks for all the responses. I guess that it would be hard to ban bitcoins. Companies that "own" the internet locking certain content out using various draconian tactics might be the only way they can fuck with us, and I doubt that would fly in this culture.
memCheck said: "Bitcoins are untraceable because every user running the software downloads the same blockchain
so there is no way to differentiate users since the decrypting of your addresses are done on your computer and not exposed to the network.
If an attacker was on your local network and ARP poisoning and preforming packet analysis with something like tcpdump
they could possibly trace your outgoing payments by compare they sniffed block chain with the latest block chain."
Ya, I was thinking along those lines too. I still don't know much about the bitcoin system, but I do know that net-snooping is much too hard to be worthwhile for something like this, if it's even possible without breaking the law.
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If it weren't for the Silkroad tumbler, you'd be best off to pass your coins through different wallets - if you didn't, all it would take the intelligence is cooperation from the exchangers.
The assumption of cops being too lazy to look into Bitcoins is based on probabilities, as is receiving packages on your P.O. box.
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I wouldn't be surprised if BTC became illegal or at the least the US govt. finds a way to tax it. Neither our government or our financial institutions want us having a decentralized currency.
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The question of whether or not to use a fake name is dependent on personal circumstances. If you live in a small town where everyone knows each other I'd be very careful but in a larger town or a city I don't think the sorters at the PO know every name at every address. I think (but it's just a guess) that if the address is correct your package should arrive safely.
I started using the name of a previous tenant (who has been gone more than a year - you wouldn't want the previous tenant's automatic forwarding to their new address to still be in place - lol!) and I've had no problem. Mail yourself an innocuous test letter to that name and see if you get it. I don't like the po box idea. Then you show up and anyone who may be watching knows that "package" was for you and you alone.
Doesn't almost everyone get all kinds of mail delivered without their own name on it? Just yesterday I got some junk mail for someone long gone. You can always use some variation on the spelling of your name, too. That is, if you can look LE in the eye with a straight face and say "I never spell my name with two L's" or "I never spell Jon with an 'h'" or "My name is Joan, not Joanne."
How's this for an idea for a safe address? John Doe or Current Resident. That always gets delivered.
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Just buy your BTC from a reputable vendor..It will cost you a bit more but, consider that a fee for safety.
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All i do is use money from ebay sales that are sent to my paypal, send them to trustworthy btc trader who trades me paypal for mtgox card, so i purchase the BTC from gox and then just send them here, hopefully its safe, its worked so far tho *shrugs*
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Bitcoins have already developed a reputation in the zeitgeist as fulfilling only two purposes:
1. Currency used for illegal trades (money laundering, essentially)
2. Fueling the dreams of libertarian idealists
Because of this, I really don't think it will be long before the US Government starts keeping a very close eye on citizens who purchase bitcoins, if they haven't already. The only people this would be likely to upset are criminals and Ron Paul, neither of whom the general public cares about one whit. The vast majority of the population does not understand enough and does not care enough to be outraged at surveillance operations targeted at people who buy bitcoins.
Lots of people like to say "it isn't illegal to buy bitcoins" to reassure themselves and others that having your bank account and other identifying information linked to the purchase of bitcoins is completely risk-free. While that may be the case at the present moment (although I have my doubts about this), I am really skeptical that it will continue very far into the future. Even if it isn't illegal to buy bitcoins, I would not be surprised AT ALL if doing so put you on some kind of federal watchlist. The government would have reasons that would be acceptable to the general public to do this to both libertarians and those using BTC for SR or similar money laundering purposes.
That is why I personally refuse to ever purchase BTC through an exchange that requires any identifying information at all. I'm not worried about them tracing the BTC back to my bank account; I'm worried about catching Big Brother's eye just for doing it in the first place.
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Well, I personally don't care if those FREAKS in the gov watch me from afar--as long as they don't DO anything, then we're cool. I doubt they would want to stir up even more libertarian sentiments in this atmosphere...they'll probably just try to pacify people and to outlaw bitcoins somehow, although, another such currency will then spring up. Face it, the power elite are fucked...democracy is spreading across the globe like a healing salve. Online decentralized crypto-currency is here to stay and they can't do shit about it except for complain and watch.
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I'm totally new to this, but I do have a backround in IT and drug-dealing....and it seems like an unwarranted amount of paranoia about the "tracability" of bitcoins here. I mean, does anybody actually know what network analysis tools would allow for tracability and what legal framework would allow prosecution? Also, why would cops waste their time? In my experience, they'll go after bitcoin dealers and manufactures since they're lazy and don't know how to use computers. Is there even one known case of a buyer being prosecuted? I didn't find one. Also, bitcoins still seem legal. Can anybody explain the rational behind all this moving of bitcoins from wallet to wallet ect? Seems paranoid to me...
I don't see how bitcoins could possibly be made illegal! What is a bitcoin? It's not legally defined as a currency, nor a commodity. "bitcoin manufacturers" ? bitcoins aren't manufactured, they're discovered - hence the term bitcoin miners"
Aside from that, if somehow in the US (or any country) they made it illegal to posses bitoins, one would simply have to store them in a wallet on a computer in a different country.
Contrary to popular belief, bitcoins are used for more for legal transactions than illegal ones!
I like to think that they will remain legal (in democratic societies, anyway). To pass a law making them illegal would imply that the government has the authority to tell its citizens what they can and cannot value. A bitcoin's value is derived from the community- there is no "standard" to back it up.
Anything can be bartered- chickens can be traded for hogs, cars can be traded for for other cars... the list is endless. Bitcoins are no different.