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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: chronicpain on February 28, 2012, 07:53 pm

Title: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: chronicpain on February 28, 2012, 07:53 pm
Many people have died taking this. I want to make sure everyone knows the dangers and things to prevent this from happening.

1. If you are not opiate tolerant, don't even mess with it. (I consider opiate tolerant 60-100mg of morphine a day or equivalent)

2. ALWAYS use a milligram scale. I cant believe all the people that will cheek a 100mcg patch.

3. If using Fentanyl with an inert ingredient always start off with the lowest possible "good" measurement.

4. If you MUST use the needle, the safest way is to take the entire package that was ordered and measure it with saline solution or bacterial free water. It only lasts a couple days, but that is the only TRUE way of getting a proper measurement. Can you tell im against using the needle yet? it can work great via other routes. I just dont want someone to hurt themselves.

Ask the vendor if it was mixed using a wet/spray method. The vendor can be the best chemist in the world, this doesn't remove the risk of having hotspots (where there is more product in one small area). All one can do is take all the precautions that are available. Its up to the end user to take precautions as well.

Even if you Know what you are doing. It would be wise to do the tiniest dose and take it by mouth or maybe nasally. Or even smoking would be better than using a needle.

I highly advise against using the needle. Its very unforgiving...Also, it would be wise to have narcan available with someone that is not using and they know how to use it.


Please be safe people.

Don't Ever buy Raw Fentanyl.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on February 28, 2012, 08:17 pm
this is no joke.. I am only lightly opiate tolerant (15mg of oxycodone puts me out).

I took 30 micrograms of fentanyl last night (btw, this product rules) and was faced.. another 10 or 20 uq and I would have been nodding all over the place.. another 10 or 20 and I would have been puking/ill and another 10 or 20 and I would have been in the hospital

Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: minorthreat71 on February 29, 2012, 10:28 am
Just to reiterate.  My wife runs an ER, and they have at least a death once a week.  Good to see posts of this nature.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: randomovdbuser on February 29, 2012, 08:17 pm
indeed. Kudos to you chronicpain. Finally a vendor taking harm reduction seriously.
Where's the "like" button on this page? :-)
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: towelie on February 29, 2012, 08:47 pm
Great information CP.  I just read that there is potentiation with people who are taking MAOI's.
Just wanted to throw that out there.  It can be found on this clearnet site.

http://www.medsafe.govt.nz/profs/datasheet/f/Fentanylinj.htm
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: MakesMeShout123 on March 01, 2012, 03:09 am
Hello CP, I currently have some Fent in transit and would like to ask you a few questions. I am opiate tolerant however currently have low tolerance. I also do not own a .01. I know this is a bad combo but rst assured I will be safe. I plan on smoking the product as this seems like the safest way for my situation. What would the size of a average smoking dose look like? A match head? smaller than that? Please let me know! lol

Also, what effect will the current sugar filler have on the smoking process? Will this be a decent RoA for this batch? Will the sugar filler effect the smoking process in anyway? either positive or negative? Thanks.

These questions are important to me as I will not use until I have a reliable answer. You rock CP. Much respect :)
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 01, 2012, 03:45 pm
I don't know if you could smoke it, but I haven't tried.
You should REALLY get a milligram scale to dose correctly... Last night I almost got viciously sick because I thought it would be 'a fun idea to bump a little bit'. yeah. right. Once I passed the peak I was ok... but it was scary for a little (sweating, dizziness, disorientation, itching, slight shaking).

If you want, I can upload a picture of what a 50microgram and 100microgram dose (weighed on a milligram scale) looks like. A 100mic dose covers about half of a 10 cent coin (US currency)
If
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: microRNA on March 01, 2012, 06:31 pm
MMS123, you are kinda scaring me honestly.

Chronicpain asked not even to order the listing unless you had the correct scale to safely measure your dose. He said this because of how incredibly dangerous fent is and important it is to be accurate. You said you dont have a .01 scale, and it wouldnt matter if you did, cause you need a .001 scale to measure milligram dosages, which is why I am worried.

There is 10 mg fent (1000 mcg per mg) in 1000 mg total powder, so 10,000 mcg total, divided by 1000, means 10 mcg fent per mg of powder.

I am *not* exactly sure the starting dose of fent, but I *guess* it would be less than a couple hundred mcg, so you are talking about measuring less than 20 mg of powder, which is not something that can be safely done just by eyeballing...

Chronic pain did say you can smoke it, if you dont hear back from him about how much he suggests, just start with the tiniest little specks, a few grains of sand worth will be 5-10 mg and I guess just work your way up slowly bit by bit to ensure you dont over do it. I may be over-estimating the potency but given the huge deal CP has made about it and how crazy potent fent is, I dont think you can be too careful.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: gmennyc on March 01, 2012, 07:37 pm
Hey quick question, does chewing on pieces of the mylan brand fent work like the gel patches?  I've been reading that with the mylan's it wont work.  Shoulda waited and got the 10mgs, now I'm going to be stuck with a non-gel patch  :(
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: randomovdbuser on March 01, 2012, 07:55 pm
Good starting doses for fentanyl are 100 micrograms of "pure" product, sublingual.
My suggestion would be to just use the sublingual route (put in under your tongue).
Starting with the equivalent of 50 micrograms under your tongue can be an idea, you'll feel the effect within minutes.
Wait half an hour and work on from there.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 01, 2012, 09:15 pm
randomovdbuser, if I took 100micrograms of fentanyl I would be in the hospital
no questions asked, I would be puking everywhere. Different people react differently to substances. Even with an opiate tolerant user I would start with no more than 50microgram and continue from there once you know you are 'safe'.

With a light opiate tolerance the most I have taken so far is about 60 micrograms, last night. If you read up a few posts you can see how well THAT went for me.


microRNA says you need a ".001" scale but my understanding of the matter is that this is not true. You can accurately measure a milligram dose with a ".01" scale. In other words, if you wanted to take 50 micrograms you would weigh out 50milligrams (.05 on a mg scale) since the 10mg was mixed with 990mg inert material. In other words milligram measurements of the 'mix' equate to 'microgram' doses of fent.
Someone correct me if I am wrong but this is how I have been taking the substance safely the past few days. I would measure up 50mg then split it between 2 people.

The onset of fentanyl is rather quick. My best advice would be to get the the headshop and buy a milligram scale. Failing this advice, START WITH THE SMALLEST DOSE. Measure out 3-5 doses that are the size of a pencil eraser (in diameter) and not very 'tall'. Take this and wait 30-45 minutes before taking the next dose. Wait another 30 to 45 minutes before taking the next dose. You need a way to titrate your dose. If you do not, you will end up very sick or dead.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: microRNA on March 02, 2012, 01:54 am
You cannot accurately measure 5 mg with a hundredths scale! The error on these scales can be at least ten mg which is more than the starting dose.... This is why CP said you need a mg scale. You are referring to eyeballing,  and with something that is so potent I was saying it is dangerous in my opinion. You could easily end up doing 3 times the dose without even realizing.

If the starting dose is 50 mcg, you only need 5 mg of powder which is impossible to measure using a .01 g scale.

I did the math below, and no one corrected me (you countered my claim but didnt provide evidence with your math as I did), so I believe your equivalent mg to mcg theory is wrong. I came out with 10 mcg per mg.

I have no interest other than suggesting people exercise the utmost caution, so if you dont want to listen to the warnings at least dont suggest others utilize the same dangerous methods. I may also be wrong (PLEASE correct me if I am, but with evidence backing your claims), thats why I am not buying the fent and risking it even though I have a mg scale, but still my stance is erring on the side of caution... as should everyone's attitude with fent.

I think chronicpain should step in a clarify for everyone's safety I may be wrong as well
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 02, 2012, 02:34 am
microRNA!

I am not disputing your math. You are correct in that there is 10micrograms per milligram of what (in my experience) is a mostly homogeneous mixture.

Where we are disagreeing is in the accurate and safe measurement of a threshold dose. A hundredths scale IS a milligram scale... right????? We do not need to make our dosages measured under 10 micrograms

I am of the opinion that a safe dose can be measure with a hundredths scale.
For example I own an OMIL M2 class ".01" scale that is accurate ±.02mg

Using my scale I can measure .05mg of powder
If my scale is inaccurate I may get (let's err on the side of caution) .08mg of powder. This would mean my scale is seriously FUBAR'd but for the benefit of argument it just gave me .08mg of powder. This is 80 milligrams of fentanyl mixture. This 80 milligrams of fentanyl mixture should contain 80 MICROGRAMS of fentanyl.

I put this powder on the table and I split it in two (eyeballed) and then split it in two again.
If I eat one of these piles, there's not going to be a problem (so long as we are dealing with a homogenous mixture).

So far I'm not dead.
Don't go all fear uncertainty and doubt on us here.
You can use a non-shitty hundredths scale to dose correctly. I will agree a thousandths scale would be ideal but depending on your geographical location -- impossible or cost prohibitive to procure.

Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: microRNA on March 02, 2012, 05:47 am
I will agree you could use your scale with relative safety, as long as you keep in mind the potential margin of error... I just wouldnt recommend this to most people cause some think they read exactly and some peoples scales really could be off by more than a couple hundreths without realizing it, especially if its only used for green generally.

NOW this was my MAIN problem with your statement, and maybe I am just not understanding your wording. I dont think you realize it but the factors of danger are actually increased by ten greater than what you just explained:

First you agreed with me, that the math was correct and that the ratio is 10 mcg fent / mg mixture

However, then you said 80 milligrams of fentanyl mixture as the example of scale error, and said it should contain 80 mcg fent... which are the doses you think you have been taking???

I am saying this is WRONG.  That 80 mg contains 800 mcg of fentanyl which is 16 times the recommended starting dose. This is why your scale variation of +/- .02 g could be a variation up to 400 mcg of fent, which could be enough to seriously harm some inexperienced users.

Part of the problem is you keep using .0X of a milligram (.0000X g), which none of our scales are measuring... its .02 of a gram, which is confusing
Edit- to clarify, if your scale could measure +/- .02 mg you would capable of measuring 20 micrograms accurately, which it can not do I assure you.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 02, 2012, 03:39 pm
However, then you said 80 milligrams of fentanyl mixture as the example of scale error, and said it should contain 80 mcg fent... which are the doses you think you have been taking???

I am saying this is WRONG.  That 80 mg contains 800 mcg of fentanyl which is 16 times the recommended starting dose. This is why your scale variation of +/- .02 g could be a variation up to 400 mcg of fent, which could be enough to seriously harm some inexperienced users.

holy shit, how much fent have I been eating?!
I do follow your math now...

100mg of the mixture would contain 1,000 micrograms of fent
10,000 micrograms is 10mg
jesus.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: randomovdbuser on March 02, 2012, 08:29 pm
For example I own an OMIL M2 class ".01" scale that is accurate ±.02mg
Using my scale I can measure .05mg of powder

Say whàt? You have a scale that is accurate to 20 micrograms?
I suppose you also have the weighted (heavy), vibration-dampened table that goes with it?
Just the act of moving in front of a microgram scale will vary your weights.
Of course I don't know you, you could as well be in a uni lab for all I know.
It just seems implausible for me to accurately measure micrograms @ home or in the kitchen...
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 02, 2012, 08:57 pm
the data sheet says "accurate to ±.02mg"
I'm picking up what you're laying down though... It's fairly impossible for my $60 headshop scale to be able to measure to 20-40micrograms. I do measure on a solid table, closed air vents and no electronics in the room

All day I have been freaking out about my opiate tolerance after being corrected by microRNA (I try to 'take it easy' as far as opiates go).
I have been under the impression that I was taking sub 100 micrograms doses, oops....
Apparently I have been taking way more than that

Think it might be time to lay low on the opiates for a few weeks. Really hoping I haven't shot my tolerance into the clouds this week



You agree with microRNA's calculations right? -- that 100mg contains 1,000 micrograms of fentanyl?
For some reason I miscalculated that 100mg would contain 100micrograms of fentanyl, but that would mean that the mixture only contained 1mg of fentanyl pure not 10mg. Ahh... mathematics =)
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: randomovdbuser on March 02, 2012, 09:37 pm
Simplest thing to do is just to way a reasonable amount of powder (so you get less "weighing error) and dissolve the stuff in some water. For example (too tired to re-read the dosage stuff), if 100 mg powder = 1 mg of fentanyl, dissolve 100 mg of powder in 100 mL of water and start of with a milliliter that you keep in you mouth for a while.
See from there.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: aciddeath on March 03, 2012, 01:55 am
Yeah, our method was similar though admittedly crappier
I measured out .06mg on my scale

Then we took very small amounts from the piles, very slowly, until we felt we reached an adequate dose.
After doing this process three times, it became rather easy to eyeball a safe dose
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: funkynuts321 on March 03, 2012, 06:00 am
Thanks so much for all of the information posted in this thread. I was thinking of ordering some Fent and I have a pretty good opiate tolerance (usually takes me 5 10mg hydrocodones, an opana 40 to get high) but I am certainly having second thoughts. I've never used fent and do not want to risk dosing this wrong. I think I'll pass.

Much appreciated, and very useful information for anyone thinking about it.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: chronicpain on March 03, 2012, 06:16 am
There are a couple things that I want to throw in here. (I've been violently ill, still am..) I would never totally recommend eyballing it. If you get your tolerance up (which will happen with fentanyl, very quickly) and get to know how big your bump is and you are snorting or smoking most likely youll be okay. I would never suggest doing this because EVERYONE reacts differently to opiates. Just because one day you are ok with X dose, doesn't mean you will ok with that same dose today.

Another thing i want to point out is that Fentanyl has almost no legs. It hits hard and fast, but can go away fairly quickly as well. I am ok with fentanyl, but its not my favorite because of this. I have to re-dose multiple times a day. I would say the average time it lasts in about 30 minutes to 45 minutes. Thats not a long time, But you shouldn't go thru withdrawals for a few hours if your physically used to it.

I can't tell you how many people that I know personally ether loves fent or hates it for the above reason. Most people shoot it because you can take such a small dose and will have many doses. Snorting is not even half as potent as shooting and even less smoking. I'm not trying to diminish fents dangers at all. I just want to warn people that they may have to redose multiple times to stay as high as they like. Also, fent raises your tolerance like crazy, so don't be surprised if you have to up your dose after only  a day or two of continual dosing.

80 percent of people love fent, The other 20 percent just like it (Im in the 20 percentile). IF you understand how fent works most everyone will at least like it. I've had people say that it got them high but not as high as everyone is posting. You have to remember that everyone is different, and can react differently to every opioid. I know many people that will get high as hell off an  20mg of hydrocodone yet have to take a ton of oxy and prefer hydro. Some people are just the opposite. That's why there are so many opiates out there. If one fit everyones needs, pharmaceutical companies  or doctors would stick to one pain medication.

Still, to be safe, its always best to measure it out with a milligram scale, the ones that go 3 decimal places. They are very cheap over at amazon, it only takes about 3 to 5 days to have one mailed to your home.. Its a wise and good investment.

Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: microRNA on March 03, 2012, 07:10 am
I really dont think you need to pass just because of safety concerns on the fent. That certainly was not my intention, it is just important that you take the care thats required. If you know the correct dosage and use a fairly accurate method of measurement there really is minimal danger. You have read the thread and surely can do this safely now if you have thirty bucks to spend, evidently scales are on sale now on amazon (from a thread about psycs if you are interested)

and funkynuts, given you pretty much need 40 mg of oxymorphone (if another other route other than orally that is)... I would think your OD risk is going to be manageable certainly. If that didnt kill you, I dont think 5 mg of the mix will, its only 50 mcg fent. Just work your way up slowly... Its a pretty rare opportunity if you were interested and were simply thinking it was too dangerous, Id say its safer than doing something like sucking on a patch.

Aciddeath was doing ten times more than he realized... it cant be too terribly dangerous evidently :P jk noboby underestimate the danger please

Be safe!
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: funkynuts321 on March 03, 2012, 07:42 am
I really dont think you need to pass just because of safety concerns on the fent. That certainly was not my intention, it is just important that you take the care thats required. If you know the correct dosage and use a fairly accurate method of measurement there really is minimal danger. You have read the thread and surely can do this safely now if you have thirty bucks to spend, evidently scales are on sale now on amazon (from a thread about psycs if you are interested)

and funkynuts, given you pretty much need 40 mg of oxymorphone (if another other route other than orally that is)... I would think your OD risk is going to be manageable certainly. If that didnt kill you, I dont think 5 mg of the mix will, its only 50 mcg fent. Just work your way up slowly... Its a pretty rare opportunity if you were interested and were simply thinking it was too dangerous, Id say its safer than doing something like sucking on a patch.

Aciddeath was doing ten times more than he realized... it cant be too terribly dangerous evidently :P jk noboby underestimate the danger please

Be safe!

Thanks Micro, I certainly appreciate the honesty and when dealing with a drug with this type of potency definitely no need to clarify intentions. As I continue to read through forums, ask questions and obtain genuine advice I may indeed eventually try it. However like most I am a standard working American with a family so I also wanted to make sure that it didn't lean me out to the point that I could not function. Any advice on the fent lollypops? I've seen them advertised on here and have always wanted to try one of them as well but was curious how the fent pops compared to the actual patch.

Again, thanks for taking the time to clarify and provide safety advice to those of us that are not as knowledgeable. Comprehensively these forums are some of the best I've even been a part of. 
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: dryhumping354 on March 03, 2012, 12:20 pm
I would be very afraid of getting a mixture that wasn't completely homogeneous.  How much can the active ingredient settle during shipping?  If I ship someone a bag of cinnamon and sugar I'd expect some spots of cinnamon settled out of the mixture, even if it weren't completely obvious by a visual inspection.  And if this were the case it seems like it would be tricky to mix the stuff back up. 

The other thing I would worry about is the accuracy of my balance...I would even think about investing in set of calibration weights, one that goes down to 10mg for example.

I may be full of shit here but just to throw some more ideas out there...IMO the potency of fentanyl deserves maximum respect
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: randomovdbuser on March 03, 2012, 08:38 pm
hence the easy solution (pun intended): dissolve the powder and measure from that.
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: mito on March 03, 2012, 09:24 pm
Is fentanyl sold in SR?  :D
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: microRNA on March 04, 2012, 05:12 am
its been listed for like a week at least bro
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: tabbenoit on March 04, 2012, 06:57 pm
Just wanted to echo the safety warnings here, I'm involved in one of the medical tests that someone undergoes before they're turned over to the organ recovery people.  (determine "brain death")  If you remove physical trauma I'd say fentanyl OD is one of the top reasons we get called in to do these tests.

Play safe...
Title: Re: Be smart when using Fentanyl!
Post by: bynter on January 04, 2013, 06:04 am
So how might i go about getting Naxalone or Narcan?