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Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: AnimusVox on November 04, 2012, 08:47 pm

Title: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 04, 2012, 08:47 pm
Please, for the sake of your health and cognitive functioning, spread your rolls out at least 2-3 months. The reasoning is simple. MDMA releases then depletes serotonin in vast amounts and inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. Taking MDMA prior to this restoration process is altogether stupid. Your body's reproduction of serotonin is already inhibited and by taking the substance during this healing period will start the entire process over.

MDMA's mechanisms work as follows:

Quote
MDMA binds to the SERT and reverses it causing a dump of serotonin. The hypothalamus directs the release of cortisol (an 800% increase) and ADH as a defense response to combat the serotonin release. This increases the speed at which serotonin is metabolized in the brain.

This is the "come-up." A sharp spike in serotonin characterized by a rise in cortisol levels. Skyrocketing cortisol levels are responsible for the come-up anxiety many users describe. And the rise in serotonin can sometimes cause nausea or bowel problems.

Next: Serotonin is an inhibitor of dopamine in 3 out of 4 pathways. The brain-wide rise in serotonin levels is clogging up dopamine pathways and causing a buildup. Serotonin and cortisol levels both spike and begin to fall. When serotonin drops, the dopamine pathways open up and a rush of dopamine is released. Imagine a dam breaking. And with the rush of dopamine comes a release of oxytocin and prolactin into the bloodstream a la the hypothalamus.

This is the "peak." Characterized by a fall in serotonin and a rush of dopamine in the mesolimbic pathway. The true 'magic' of MDMA is a systematic release of dopamine, prolactin, and oxytocin, not serotonin.

Dosing also plays a very large part in MDMA neurotoxicity as well, as it scales exponentially the more you take at a given time. With higher doses you are prone to hyperthermia and a decrease in antioxidant levels to deal with metabolites. While we lack the quantitative data for measuring the true damage done to a human due to obvious reasons, the neurotoxicity is very well established within mice and rats (see footnotes) and caution should be taken when choosing how much MDMA to ingest (1.5mg/Kg, more on that below).

While the choice to roll often is obviously at the user's discretion, the best experience is had by maintaining this healthy time frame and also following a few general guidelines.

Keep your body temperature LOW! Ensure that you do not overexert yourself when dancing as an increase in body temperature is the leading cause of MDMA induced neurotoxicity. As your body temperature rises, your body's natural process for creating antixodants is negatively affected and oxidative stress is increased, which leads to damage to your 5-HT axons. Take plenty of breaks when dancing so that you maintain a low body temperature.

Eat right and exercise. This is a no-brainer. The healthier you are, the better your body will be able metabolize MDMA.

Enjoy MDMA for what it is and don't utilize it to get intoxicated. It is meant to bring about an incredible experience that, for me at least, gives a profound outlook on life as a whole. Self control is a big part of this. Learn to resist the urge to take it, especially when under the influence of alcohol. The two really should NOT be combined. Respect the substance and it will respect you.

Know your dose and do not re-dose! The general rule of thumb for dosing pure MDMA is 1.5mg/Kg. Given you have no tolerance, this is an excellent guideline and should be practiced thoroughly. If need be, take a booster (typically half of your initial dose) no later than T+1:00/1:30! Any subsequent doses will only greatly increase neurotoxicity and make the negative effects much more profound.

Pre-load, post-load! Pre-load, post-load! This is CRITICAL and there is no reason not to do this as the vitamins are cheap and very effective. Antioxidants prior to your roll will largely alleviate neurotoxicity. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid are all phenomenal antioxidants. A few other notables to smooth out your roll are magnesium glycinate for bruxism (jaw clenching) and ginger root for nausea. It is typically advised to take these one hour prior to rolling. Following your roll (when you are COMPLETELY DONE in order to avoid serotonin syndrome, so ~6-7 hours after dosing), a moderate dose (1-200mg, don't overdo it people) of 5-HTP will help begin the restoration process. If available, taking an SSRI on your comedown is very beneficial as it will prevent the uptake of nasty metabolites. A multivitamin at the end of your roll is also phenomenal in all regards, and while you won't want to, EAT! EAT LOTS OF FOOD!  Pump your body with nutrients. You just exhausted your mind and body and it needs to refuel! Soups, fruits, and vegetables are great for the comedown and light on the stomach.

Stay hydrated but don't overdo it. This is the biggest 'duh' guideline, but it still needs to be reiterated. Drink a reasonable amount of water to compensate for whatever activity you're participating in, especially if you're dancing. Dehydration is not something you want to be playing with.

All in all, MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug and much care needs to be taken when experiencing it and it can be near completely harmless if all the proper caution is taken. Respect your substance, know your body, and know your dose.

Here are some great resources... (CLEARNET WARNING)

On neurotoxicity:

http://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-and-neurotoxicity
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=750
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/24/2/175

On supplements/SSRIs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2433425
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml
http://www.neurosoup.com/schedule1/mdmamainpage.htm

And of course, the main erowid MDMA page will inform you of everything I've told you!

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/

If anyone has anything to add or if you noticed a mistake in this post, please share it with me! Knowledge is power after all. Happy tripping everyone. Stay safe and be smart. :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fidocscentral on November 04, 2012, 10:09 pm
Over the past 5+ months I have been pre/post-loading with this stuff **clearnet warning** http://www.raveaid.com/Default.asp **clearnet warning** and I really have noticed a difference along with eating well before/after. Just my opinion in case some people just want an easy all-in-one vitamin pill. Cheers and good writeup.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Niriane on November 04, 2012, 10:54 pm
From what I've read, a re-dose for most people is typically a third of the initial dose, and not half?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: The Mustard Walrus on November 04, 2012, 11:07 pm
Excellent post, Animus. Thank you for this.

I have been doing MDMA for about 2 years now, and have been for the most part having it once a month, with a few longer periods here and there. It was instinctual for me to wait at least this long, as I care about my health and don't want to screw with my brain. However, I think as you said, 2-3 months would be wiser. I am going to start waiting at least a couple of months between rolls now, as all of this makes a lot of sense.

I have a friend who rolls all the time and takes a shitload of 5-HTP beforehand, thinking it protects him from everything and allows him to have a stronger trip. To him, it's as simple as 5-HTP being the firewood, and MDMA being the match. So as long as you have wood, you can have fire! Obviously an oversimplification, but I can't convince him of anything because he's been doing MDMA for years and thinks he knows it all.

I like to take a single 5-HTP each day 1 week before, and 1 week after rolls, and I have recently started paying attention to antioxidants. BEST ADVICE I HAVE: MATCHA GREEN TEA! Matcha is LOADED with anti-oxidants, many times more than pretty much anything else on the planet. It is simply the best thing to have, in my opinion, to prevent neurotoxicity. Have it before, have it after, shit, have it every day of your life because it's fantastic stuff that most people still haven't discovered. It's expensive, but if you're willing to spend a bunch on your MDMA, you may as well do it right and spend a few bucks more to get your matcha/vitamins.

Again, great post and an excellent thing to bring awareness to as there are too many people (like my friend) who are fucking themselves up and don't even realize it.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: shoophaha on November 05, 2012, 10:21 pm
Wow, I wish I had discovered this earlier. I took half a gram of MDMA over the course of the night which was a really horrible idea and I felt like shit the next day. I don't plan to do it again for a while; possibly once more this semester but not overdoing it like last time. I think people (like myself, before) treat it kind of like cocaine, with which you can keep doing bumps over the course of the night, but that's clearly not a great idea. At 5 am, I just started getting wide eyed and twitchy and straight up strung out.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 12:01 am
Over the past 5+ months I have been pre/post-loading with this stuff **clearnet warning** http://www.raveaid.com/Default.asp **clearnet warning** and I really have noticed a difference along with eating well before/after. Just my opinion in case some people just want an easy all-in-one vitamin pill. Cheers and good writeup.

This supplement would be fantastic, except for one MAJOR thing: it contains 5-HTP. Contrary to popular belief, you should actually avoid taking 5-HTP the day prior to rolling. The reasoning is simple: serotonin syndrome. Both MDMA and 5-HTP hone in on the serotonin system and having two substances that actively toy with this system is unwise, and while it is rare, can lead to serotonin syndrome. The best option for pre-loading with 5-HTP is to take it the week before rolling and avoid taking it the day of. For post-loading purposes, take it when you are COMPLETELY done rolling. Avoid taking it when coming down because MDMA is still relatively active. It's typically advised to wait 6-7 hours after your most recent dose before you ingest 5-HTP.

From what I've read, a re-dose for most people is typically a third of the initial dose, and not half?

The studies I have read vary between the two but ultimately leads to maintaining a booster dosage of half or less. I personally tend to avoid boosters altogether, but that's personal preference.

Excellent post, Animus. Thank you for this.

I have been doing MDMA for about 2 years now, and have been for the most part having it once a month, with a few longer periods here and there. It was instinctual for me to wait at least this long, as I care about my health and don't want to screw with my brain. However, I think as you said, 2-3 months would be wiser. I am going to start waiting at least a couple of months between rolls now, as all of this makes a lot of sense.

I have a friend who rolls all the time and takes a shitload of 5-HTP beforehand, thinking it protects him from everything and allows him to have a stronger trip. To him, it's as simple as 5-HTP being the firewood, and MDMA being the match. So as long as you have wood, you can have fire! Obviously an oversimplification, but I can't convince him of anything because he's been doing MDMA for years and thinks he knows it all.

I like to take a single 5-HTP each day 1 week before, and 1 week after rolls, and I have recently started paying attention to antioxidants. BEST ADVICE I HAVE: MATCHA GREEN TEA! Matcha is LOADED with anti-oxidants, many times more than pretty much anything else on the planet. It is simply the best thing to have, in my opinion, to prevent neurotoxicity. Have it before, have it after, shit, have it every day of your life because it's fantastic stuff that most people still haven't discovered. It's expensive, but if you're willing to spend a bunch on your MDMA, you may as well do it right and spend a few bucks more to get your matcha/vitamins.

Again, great post and an excellent thing to bring awareness to as there are too many people (like my friend) who are fucking themselves up and don't even realize it.

Please forward your friend this post! It is pivotal that he stops rolling so often and even more important to stop consuming so much 5-HTP, especially prior to rolling.  I outlined the reasoning above. He is damaging his brain more than he realizes! Also, I completely agree with green tea and it's actually my beverage of choice for any tripping purposes. So very refreshing and healthy! :)

Wow, I wish I had discovered this earlier. I took half a gram of MDMA over the course of the night which was a really horrible idea and I felt like shit the next day. I don't plan to do it again for a while; possibly once more this semester but not overdoing it like last time. I think people (like myself, before) treat it kind of like cocaine, with which you can keep doing bumps over the course of the night, but that's clearly not a great idea. At 5 am, I just started getting wide eyed and twitchy and straight up strung out.

The  worst possible thing you can do is to treat MDMA like cocaine. Stick to the dosing rules I have provided and your come down will be relatively pleasant, and sometimes even blissful. I would recommend you not partake in MDMA for at least 90 days due to your previous dosage. 500mg is an ungodly amount and so very harmful to your brain. In any case, I'm glad you at least stumbled upon this thread before your next adventure. It is never too late to learn and apply new found knowledge.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DrugBuddy on November 06, 2012, 03:19 am
... inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. ...

I totally agree with your post - and +1 for the great info.

Isn't there some disagreement in the literature about this point though, as much of what we know comes from studies on mice or meta studies involving polydrug use? Can you supply a reference for this particular point about permanent damage? I'd love to get to the bottom of this one.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Lucius Luv on November 06, 2012, 04:23 am
From experience i can say 5htp is a must have..

also strong doses 10mg of melatonin should be essential for the nightly come down, and plenty of alpha lipoic acid. you simply can't abuse mdma and still get great effects from it, after the abuse of this drugs, taking it is a waste.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: shoophaha on November 06, 2012, 04:28 am
I've done MDMA several times before but that was a night of excess because it was the first time I did it at a concert (usually I do it while chilling with friends at someone's house and playing music and doing poi). I'd rather treat it as a social/heart-to-heart/learning experience again and stick to drinking for concerts and other such events.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 05:38 am
... inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. ...

I totally agree with your post - and +1 for the great info.

Isn't there some disagreement in the literature about this point though, as much of what we know comes from studies on mice or meta studies involving polydrug use? Can you supply a reference for this particular point about permanent damage? I'd love to get to the bottom of this one.

Full documentation of most studies unfortunately have a price tag for the public, but this one is very thorough and the area of interest begins right after the introduction and is beautifully cited.

http://www.aapsj.org/view.asp?art=aapsj080238

Quote
Preclinical studies have revealed long-term decreases in tyrosine and tryptophan hydroxylase activities after either METH13 and/or MDMA administration.

Another:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617070/

Quote
There is substantial evidence that the compound produces long-lasting neurotoxic changes in the brain of experimental animals. Immunohistochemical studies have reported an apparent loss of 5-HT nerve terminals and biochemical studies have reported on the loss of [3H]-paroxetine binding to the presynaptic 5-HT transporter  and a decrease in tryptophan hydroxylase activity.

Another:

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299986905558

Quote
Like METH, single or multiple 10 mg/kg doses of either drug caused marked reductions in both tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) activity and concentrations of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, in several serotonergic nerve terminal regions.

Hope this helps! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 05:47 am
so what happens if there is no juice to release ? and the body keeps getting more and more doses..

theyl'l just be chasin serotonin dreams ?

i like to take rolls in quarters or halves.. and everytime i do. i end up peakin as soon as i use the restroom..

i dont like usin other stuff. but is it cool to use shrooms as like a stimulant during the 2-3 months during recuperation off the rolls ?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 06:03 am
You simply won't roll or "feel the magic". Negative effects will be accentuated and much more significant than if you had waited and the likelihood of depression and anxiety are much, much higher. It's essentially trying to release the floodgates of a dam that has no water behind it. As far as using other substances in between, yes, it's fine! LSD and mushrooms have a much different method of action and haven't shown to be neurotoxic.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DrugBuddy on November 06, 2012, 06:06 am
http://www.aapsj.org/view.asp?art=aapsj080238

Quote
Preclinical studies have revealed long-term decreases in tyrosine and tryptophan hydroxylase activities after either METH13 and/or MDMA administration.


This paper is talking about meth as well and notes "MDMA-induced depletions have typically been more specific to serotonergic terminal markers" which cites another study which is all about Meth at multiple 15mg/kg does. That would be like taking 2.5 grams of MDMA over and over.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1617070/

Quote
There is substantial evidence that the compound produces long-lasting neurotoxic changes in the brain of experimental animals. Immunohistochemical studies have reported an apparent loss of 5-HT nerve terminals and biochemical studies have reported on the loss of [3H]-paroxetine binding to the presynaptic 5-HT transporter  and a decrease in tryptophan hydroxylase activity.

Same again .. here they are talking about a rat study with 12.5 and 100 (!) mg p/kg
This is an extreme dose, and the point of the study is to observe these extreme effects. It's not representative of normal recreational dosage or use at all.


http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/0014299986905558

Quote
Like METH, single or multiple 10 mg/kg doses of either drug caused marked reductions in both tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH) activity and concentrations of 5-hydroxytryptamine (5-HT) and 5-hydroxyindoleacetic acid, in several serotonergic nerve terminal regions.

And again .. 15mg/kg .. this time every 6 hours for 24 hours. That would be like having 9 grams of MDMA in 1 day!

Of course there is permanent damage at these levels.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 06:27 am
so like if im not a big user.. and ive never poped a whole pill.. so give or take my doses are like 100 mg of mdma. and i break those in halves..

the serotonin i used up is already depleted basically.. so even if i up'd the dose and just poped 3 whole pills.. id probably feel it. but would be starting the whole cycle again... not to mention possible dammage from over usage.

is ok to take like lil bits of mdma. continually untill i use up like say 100 mg within a day or 24 period ?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 06:35 am
The articles are talking about both meth and MDMA, as MDMA is an analogue of meth. Smaller animals are also much more resistant to neurotoxicity which accounts for the boost in dosing. Unfortunately I don't have the full text on hand, but here is an abstract of a study that shows the possibility for neurotoxicity at recreational dosages (1.28mg/Kg) in humans:

http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=402

In any case, until society wants to pump a live human with recreational dosages of MDMA for a better picture of neurotoxicity, these studies are all we have to go by. I'm very much inclined to take great caution when it comes to ingesting a recreational drug and utilize these studies to my advantage. MDMA has been established over and over again to be neurotoxic. The big question that we are trying to figure out now is just exactly how it is neurotoxic. The forefather of MDMA, Alexander Shulgin, also advised a 90 day period in between dosing.

I'm with you in wanting a much more conclusive study in relation to recreational dosages in humans, but alas, we have medical ethics to abide by and instead must use animal trials as our basis of understanding.

so like if im not a big user.. and ive never poped a whole pill.. so give or take my doses are like 100 mg of mdma. and i break those in halves..

the serotonin i used up is already depleted basically.. so even if i up'd the dose and just poped 3 whole pills.. id probably feel it. but would be starting the whole cycle again... not to mention possible dammage from over usage.

is ok to take like lil bits of mdma. continually untill i use up like say 100 mg within a day or 24 period ?

You won't achieve the desired effect by spreading it out over a given period and you will typically induce more negative effects than positive.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 06:40 am
 8)A-V. dam. u know ur stuff.

im afraid to peak like i once did. thats why i really break it down in pieces. but now i see. what i must do. in order to actually roll...

the magic i felt. was like perfect .. no anxiety . mind reading. and like perfect delivery when i rap. thats why i dont like cheatin' usin
it too much. but darn. now i feel like i must pop 1 entirely
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: TheBusiness on November 06, 2012, 06:42 am
is ok to take like lil bits of mdma. continually untill i use up like say 100 mg within a day or 24 period ?

You'd be wasting the magic. Take a regular dose and enjoy yourself for a few hours. If you want to extend the feelings as long as possible, avoid alcohol. Maybe have some caffeine. Take a nice high dose of vitamin C before / during the roll and if you really want to extend yourself switch to a light tryptamine during the come down .. 2C-B is recommended at very low doses.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 06:49 am
do the extras really help alot ? i mean. is it that much longer and better ?

i guess its worth the extra effects just in case. i only use codeine, weed, shrooms. so mdma. has always been like a avoider to me.

its good to wake up when i come down off the syrup. but shrooms since then replaced the lil bit of molly i would nibble just to amp up a lil'.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 06:53 am
What is your gender and weight, metaphoe, if I may ask? I highly recommend taking the full pill if you aren't below 46/Kg. Females are also generally more sensitive to MDMA as well. What is it you're afraid of? If you are used to a powerful psychedelic (mushrooms), you should be very comfortable taking MDMA. Also, what do you mean by 'extras'? If you mean the vitamins, yes, they help tremendously and will help make the roll that much better. The greatest benefit of pre-loading and post-loading is in helping your body recover from the experience. It doesn't amplify the roll as you're probably thinking, but instead reduces neurotoxicity, helps with the comedown, and improves the feelings in the days/week after.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 07:07 am
im a male. weight about 70 kg. im about 5.5..

i guess. im always taking vitamins already. .. this stuff is just too strong.. and its like i see trails. and small glitches of shutter movment..

i kidd u not.. i was smokin a blunt. and dropped. it. i could smell it. but i couldnt see it.. and i know it was under me.. i had to like double take and see if it was really there.

idk. then i tried to sleep it off. and started freakin havin a real vivid dream. either that or i was havin an outter body experience.

it seems to me this pschyoactive drug has other possiblities.. have yall ever noticed anything cool or like special too ?

i take shrooms to get that same mdma effect. i dont trip out like visually . its more like a smart drug to me. they keep me up ..
and have like a nice emotional cry baby feeling when u reflect.

kinda like only animals and babys can notice this type of shine i get.. i dont know. but thats as far as i go..
the codeine is soft. and i know i shouldnt be mixin it in with other stuff. but it helps to realy concentrate. the shrooms help me think and approach.. the weed helps me just vibe i guess, kinda like a hobby more so. but they all have like a nice effect
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 07:13 am
You may be very sensitive to MDMA, which in that case you may be right in halving the pills. Another possibility is the fact you were smoking alongside. Weed can intensify a roll a LOT and can cause for the anxiety that you are talking about. Next time, try taking a full dose without taking any other drug or smoking. MDMA can be very intense, but as with any psychoactive substance, the best advice I have ever come across is to "Breathe. Relax. Let go". Embrace it and let it guide you through a lucid experience.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 07:17 am
the only reason i knew i was sensitive. its cuz i start puke'n. like i feel overwhelmed.. either that or i exercise too much. but i wasnt dehydratin or nothing.. n it happens everytime when i try to take more than half a pill..

i think i gota try that just rollin without smoking.. it probably adds to the trippy feelin of like butterflys. i creep myself out.

thinkin' what if i get too high ? lol.. can someone stay stuck on a mdma trip ?

idk. people around me already said i went crazy or that i stayed on a trip.. i know its not possible.. thats another reason why i aint try acid yet too
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 07:23 am
Then yes, you are probably one of the few individuals that are very sensitive to MDMA, in which case, continue halving your pills.

Hallucinogen persisting perception disorder (HPPD) is a real thing but is incredibly rare. You really shouldn't worry too much about this.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 06, 2012, 07:30 am
awesome +1 A-V

thankz for your time.. 
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: microRNA on November 06, 2012, 08:13 am
Interestingly i made a post a while ago about a way to reduce the neurotoxicity of mdma but it didnt seem to receive much interest

an article i found demonstrated an effective measure was actually smoking weed

so while taking mdma, bud actually acts as a neuroprotective to prevent damage

through a mechanism not mentioned in this thread though - provides evidence it protects against dopaminergic toxicity caused by mdma induced hyperthermia which activation of the CB1 reduces significantly

if youre interested: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=15567
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: lesfalco on November 06, 2012, 08:24 am
If i knew how to give out karma, you would be the first to receive one

Good post AV
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: TheBusiness on November 06, 2012, 08:45 am
Interestingly i made a post a while ago about a way to reduce the neurotoxicity of mdma but it didnt seem to receive much interest

an article i found demonstrated an effective measure was actually smoking weed

so while taking mdma, bud actually acts as a neuroprotective to prevent damage

through a mechanism not mentioned in this thread though - provides evidence it protects against dopaminergic toxicity caused by mdma induced hyperthermia which activation of the CB1 reduces significantly

if youre interested: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=15567

Missed that thread, thanks microRNA .. very interesting indeed.

There is another research paper that shows viagra reduced neurotoxicity in mice.

So getting stoned, and popping viagra before rolling on MDMA sounds like a .. healthy night?  :D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Theaides on November 06, 2012, 09:56 am
I've been on a bit of a bender the last couple weeks, too many parties, friends who want to roll, etc.

So last Friday, Wednesday, and then Saturday I rolled on no less than 300mg total per night (200mg +100mg booster), and then rolling again this coming Saturday on probably about 350-400mg total (tolerance is definitely building up) -- but after that I probably won't touch MDMA again for a good 6 months.

Do you think this will cause irreversible damage?  Before this I rolled 4 times at a major festival in August and then nothing prior to that for 10 years.  The magic is definitely dulled, but it's still very nice feeling.

I always follow up the days after with 5-htp twice a day and get absolutely no crash, depression, or anxiety.  I also usually eat lots of blueberries, vitamin C, and some smoothies with anti-oxidant blends in them in the interims.  I know this kind of binge is probabaly not good for me, but it's just a brief couple of weeks and then I won't really be rolling again for a while.  The real question is whether or not this is going to ruin MDMA for me that badly from short binges like this? 
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 10:35 am
I actually ran across a reference to that article once but wasn't able to give it a solid read until just now. Very interesting information and an excellent study all around, microRNA. Thanks for sharing! THC truly is one of the most amazing compounds ever.

TheBusiness, you're correct! Viagra is a PDE5 inhibitor and increases the release of natural antioxidants and protective chemicals in the brain which prevented 5-HT deficits in rats. I personally wouldn't recommend it as a solution in preventing neurotoxicity due to the potential for a bad interaction between Viagra's vascular effects and MDMA's heart-rate, blood pressure, and body temperature-increasing tendencies, but it's an interesting subject nonetheless. You can find the study here:

http://www.uclm.es/profesorado/jjordan/pdf/journal/38.pdf

I've been on a bit of a bender the last couple weeks, too many parties, friends who want to roll, etc.

So last Friday, Wednesday, and then Saturday I rolled on no less than 300mg total per night (200mg +100mg booster), and then rolling again this coming Saturday on probably about 350-400mg total (tolerance is definitely building up) -- but after that I probably won't touch MDMA again for a good 6 months.

Do you think this will cause irreversible damage?  Before this I rolled 4 times at a major festival in August and then nothing prior to that for 10 years.  The magic is definitely dulled, but it's still very nice feeling.

I always follow up the days after with 5-htp twice a day and get absolutely no crash, depression, or anxiety.  I also usually eat lots of blueberries, vitamin C, and some smoothies with anti-oxidant blends in them in the interims.  I know this kind of binge is probabaly not good for me, but it's just a brief couple of weeks and then I won't really be rolling again for a while.  The real question is whether or not this is going to ruin MDMA for me that badly from short binges like this? 

You are treading on rather dangerous dosages, and I highly advise you to reconsider rolling on Saturday. Ask yourself this: is a night out worth the potential cost of irreversible damage to cognitive ability? It's really hard to say if you've already damaged your brain and I would be more inclined to say no, you haven't, but what you probably will experience is a brief funk for a few weeks (or even longer). Given how much pressure you've placed on serotonin system, you will most likely experience bouts of anxiety, depression, lack of interest in certain activities, lowered motivation to get up in the morning, headaches, and so forth. This could be from severe to very minimal depending on your overall health and various other factors.

The long break you're planning will help tremendously and, assuming you haven't damaged your brain, cognitive functioning should be restored to normal levels. If damage does occur, you will most likely not notice it assuming you abstain. If you exercise, the recovery process will be improved exponentially. However, whether or not it will "ruin" MDMA (which I assume you mean 'losing the magic') is completely subjective to your chemistry and a total coin flip. Some users experience loss of magic after the first use while others can binge and still maintain the optimal effects. This is something I simply cannot tell you. What I can tell you is to rethink taking MDMA this weekend as the risk of damage is very possible. You should not only respect the substance, but also your body. Treat your mind as best as you can. Brain damage is a serious matter.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Theaides on November 06, 2012, 11:03 am
Quote
Ask yourself this: is a night out worth the potential cost of irreversible damage to cognitive ability?

I've definitely not noticed any impairment in my cognitive abilities, and I also work a full time job that requires very elaborate logic/problem solving and have noticed no interference in my ability to do my work as usual.  I mean my short term memory is kinda screwy but it's always been that way (mostly weed's fault).  In all regards I've been keeping an eye on my mental health and haven't really noticed much of an issue.

I'm also kind of a heavy/tall guy so 200mg is my sweet spot on good M.  I'll reconsider it though.  Got some 2c-i laying around I could use instead I guess.  It's just that this party feels more like a molly type of party to me.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmdma on November 06, 2012, 11:23 am
***Clearnet*** http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/287832-5-HTP-and-cardiac-fibrosis ***Clearnet***

I am not saying 5-htp is bad for you when taken in moderation, but don't start taking huge doses daily. There is always a possibility of consequences. I highly recommend thoroughly reading the bluelight link.

I actually experimented with 5-htp last winter and got a great help from it. It's really dark here in Finland during winter and I usually get some anxiety during the winter. I tried taking 5-htp once every morning for a month and got a significant change in mood from taking it. I was taking a strong complex vitamin B capsule with it everyday. but I really wouldn't recommend staying on it for long.

L-tryptophan should be somewhat safer to take on a daily basis for extended periods of time to aid serotonin biosynthesis in the body.

As what are my thoughts on taking MDMA as OP said moderation is key. Also, there are huge differences in one's brain chemistry. Where others need 3 months to recover, some may need only a month to FULLY recover to baseline after taking MDMA.

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Dopamin on November 06, 2012, 12:06 pm
Hey Animus,

thanks for the post. Being new to MDMA this post gave me a lot of valuable input. I did some research myself and found the following list:

*clearnet*
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v04n1/04134pea.html

Nutrient    Preventive Dose    Therapeutic Dose    Form
b-Carotene    5 mg    15 mg    Consider supplements of other carotenoids (e.g., lycopene) as they become available
Bioflavonoids    2 grams    6 grams    Mixed bioflavonoids from a variety of sources
Coenzyme Q10    100 mg    300 mg    Only one form available
L-Ascorbic acid    2-4 grams    6-12 grams    Free acid or calcium, magnesium salt
L-Carnitine    1 gram    3 grams    L-carnitine HCl or, if possible, less hygroscopic salts (e.g., L-carnitine magnesium citrate)
N-Acetylcysteine (NAC)    2 grams    6 grams    Only one form available; do not use L- cysteine
Selenium    250 mcg    500 mcg    Form not critical -- inorganic (e.g., selenite) as effective, and less expensive, than organic forms (e.g., selenomethionine)
Vitamin E    1,000 IU    3,000 IU    Available data indicate that form is not critical

I don't know what to do with these doses. Daily, prior to rolling, postrolling? Which of the two doses should I use, preventive or therapeutic?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Dopamin on November 06, 2012, 12:18 pm
And I have another question:
*clearnet*
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665

"Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug"

This sentence makes no sense for me. B.i.d. is short for "bis in die", twice a day. So the rats got shot a total of two times 30 minutes before getting MDMA, on two consecutive days? Why not apply all the ALA in a single shot?

How much should I use then before rolling. Maybe a tenth of the dose, because I would go for like 1.5 mg/kg +20% cause my stuff would be like 80% pure.

What about postloading with this stuff?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 11:14 pm
Hey Animus,

thanks for the post. Being new to MDMA this post gave me a lot of valuable input. I did some research myself and found the following list:

*clearnet*
http://www.maps.org/news-letters/v04n1/04134pea.html

Nutrient    Preventive Dose    Therapeutic Dose    Form
b-Carotene    5 mg    15 mg    Consider supplements of other carotenoids (e.g., lycopene) as they become available
Bioflavonoids    2 grams    6 grams    Mixed bioflavonoids from a variety of sources
Coenzyme Q10    100 mg    300 mg    Only one form available
L-Ascorbic acid    2-4 grams    6-12 grams    Free acid or calcium, magnesium salt
L-Carnitine    1 gram    3 grams    L-carnitine HCl or, if possible, less hygroscopic salts (e.g., L-carnitine magnesium citrate)
N-Acetylcysteine (NAC)    2 grams    6 grams    Only one form available; do not use L- cysteine
Selenium    250 mcg    500 mcg    Form not critical -- inorganic (e.g., selenite) as effective, and less expensive, than organic forms (e.g., selenomethionine)
Vitamin E    1,000 IU    3,000 IU    Available data indicate that form is not critical

I don't know what to do with these doses. Daily, prior to rolling, postrolling? Which of the two doses should I use, preventive or therapeutic?

These dosages are actually rather obscure to me as well and that article is quite outdated. I would honestly advise you purchase a quality supplement brand (NOW Foods is what I use) and to simply take the recommended dose that they have on the label prior to rolling. My reasoning for this is that if they are producing high quality and pure supplements, their research department has most assuredly gone to the appropriate lengths to ensure proper dosing. Doubling up on the recommended dose is also a sound strategy if you know how well your body metabolizes the particular supplement you're taking. The only antioxidant I would recommend NOT doubling up on is Vitamin E, as higher doses can lead to stomach problems, fatigue, and headache. As far as taking antioxidants after rolling, it's not needed. The half-life of these supplements is longer than the entire duration of a roll. A multivitamin afterwards is enough to fill the void after a roll, along with 5-HTP and plenty of food.

The best advice is to test each supplement you add to your regimen prior to rolling with it so that you fully understand how your body reacts to certain dosages.

And I have another question:
*clearnet*
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665

"Repeated administration of the metabolic antioxidant alpha-lipoic acid (100 mg/kg, i.p., b.i.d. for 2 consecutive days) 30 min prior to MDMA did not prevent the acute hyperthermia induced by the drug"

This sentence makes no sense for me. B.i.d. is short for "bis in die", twice a day. So the rats got shot a total of two times 30 minutes before getting MDMA, on two consecutive days? Why not apply all the ALA in a single shot?

How much should I use then before rolling. Maybe a tenth of the dose, because I would go for like 1.5 mg/kg +20% cause my stuff would be like 80% pure.

What about postloading with this stuff?

Truthfully I cannot gather enough information from the abstract and I would have to read the full study to know why they administered ALA like that. Again, take the recommended dosages and there is no need to post load with antioxidants beyond a multivitamin.

For further study, my favorite text regarding antioxidants is found here:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Pillows on November 06, 2012, 11:25 pm
I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on IVing Molly, especially it's effect on neurotoxicity? I researched it a ton but got alot of conflicting or unreliable information. I've done it several times and always had an incredible/intense as fuck experience.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: d4lyvi on November 06, 2012, 11:31 pm
Great post Animus, thank you. I preload and postload heavily but seems like I was missing a few more antioxidants that could help out greatly. I too use the NOW foods brand of supplements.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 06, 2012, 11:42 pm
I'm curious what everyone's opinion is on IVing Molly, especially it's effect on neurotoxicity? I researched it a ton but got alot of conflicting or unreliable information. I've done it several times and always had an incredible/intense as fuck experience.

I'm actually completely ignorant when it comes to intravenous MDMA administration. I think the biggest concern would be ensuring purity to the point of having no doubts whatsoever. I would send that product through multiple acetone washes before even considering it. What dosages do you typically take when IVing? Do you dilute in a saline solution?

Due to MDMA's inconclusive bioavailability, I'd be hard pressed to state anything definite about the neurotoxicity from intravenous administration. I would, however, assume that it's just as neurotoxic as oral administration, and perhaps even more-so. I'll do some study digging and see what I can find!

Great post Animus, thank you. I preload and postload heavily but seems like I was missing a few more antioxidants that could help out greatly. I too use the NOW foods brand of supplements.

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Dopamin on November 07, 2012, 12:28 am
Gonna stock up on supplements then. My brain thanks you in advance  :P
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DrugBuddy on November 08, 2012, 04:57 am
In any case, until society wants to pump a live human with recreational dosages of MDMA for a better picture of neurotoxicity, these studies are all we have to go by.

....

MDMA has been established over and over again to be neurotoxic.

Well, for all the criticism here on SR about the show itself, the "Drugs Live" trial actually did just that. Human trials. Paid for by a television company but David Nutt believes they'll get 5 good published papers out of it. They alluded to the fact that recreation doses do not appear to cause permanent damage to serotonin levels on the show, and here is a quote from a recent interview in TIME :

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about the claims that MDMA damages the serotonin cells in your brain, causing a brief depression three days later and maybe leading to longer lasting mood problems?

DAVID NUTT : Our study was the first proper study of what happens at day three, what people call the 3-day blues.  We found that three days [after taking MDMA] there was no difference in mood. That suggests that the 3-day blues has more to do with dancing all night and taking other drugs and not getting enough sleep than with the drug itself.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/19/qa-with-uk-scientist-who-gave-out-ecstasy-on-live-tv/#ixzz2BbTUp8RB
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: spinbox1 on November 08, 2012, 05:58 am
The seller Tryptamine's products are great for pre-load/post-load.  Unfortunately he hasn't been around for a while.

I normally take a mind food before and a chill pill after.  He has all the ingredients listed on them.

http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/user/44143e1f2f
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 08, 2012, 07:37 am
In any case, until society wants to pump a live human with recreational dosages of MDMA for a better picture of neurotoxicity, these studies are all we have to go by.

....

MDMA has been established over and over again to be neurotoxic.

Well, for all the criticism here on SR about the show itself, the "Drugs Live" trial actually did just that. Human trials. Paid for by a television company but David Nutt believes they'll get 5 good published papers out of it. They alluded to the fact that recreation doses do not appear to cause permanent damage to serotonin levels on the show, and here is a quote from a recent interview in TIME :

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about the claims that MDMA damages the serotonin cells in your brain, causing a brief depression three days later and maybe leading to longer lasting mood problems?

DAVID NUTT : Our study was the first proper study of what happens at day three, what people call the 3-day blues.  We found that three days [after taking MDMA] there was no difference in mood. That suggests that the 3-day blues has more to do with dancing all night and taking other drugs and not getting enough sleep than with the drug itself.

Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2012/10/19/qa-with-uk-scientist-who-gave-out-ecstasy-on-live-tv/#ixzz2BbTUp8RB
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have watched both episodes, and while they are amazing at raising awareness, they do very little in terms of gauging neurotoxicity. The purpose of those studies was to better understand the SUBJECTIVE effects, and how they actually affect individuals and their perceptions on particular emotional variables. The neuroscience was incredibly downplayed and is much more complicated than what they depicted, and Nutt is oversimplifying the "3-day blues". While I am very thrilled with the trials and how well it was executed, it actually does very little in determining the neurotoxicity from recreational dosages (and in fact their dosages were much lower than recreational). I could be completely wrong, though, and they may have been better documenting it than I am aware of and will be publishing said studies in due time. In which case, consider me very excited! However, in the meantime, I must stand by my previous post.

And in my opinion, Nutt is far too pretentious for his own good. ;)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on November 09, 2012, 01:40 am
Just wondering if anyone has any experience of taking these the same time you drop MDMA..
Vitamin E (around 1000ui)
ALA (alpha lipoic acid) (around 1500mg)
Vitamin C (around 1000mg)

Does it have any effects on the roll itself? I.e enhances it or dulls it?
I take Vitamin C before I roll and it does slightly enhance it for me but this could be a placebo.. But I've just acquired the Vit.E and ALA and I'm wondering if this has any effect on the roll as well..
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 09, 2012, 09:48 pm
Just wondering if anyone has any experience of taking these the same time you drop MDMA..
Vitamin E (around 1000ui)
ALA (alpha lipoic acid) (around 1500mg)
Vitamin C (around 1000mg)

Does it have any effects on the roll itself? I.e enhances it or dulls it?
I take Vitamin C before I roll and it does slightly enhance it for me but this could be a placebo.. But I've just acquired the Vit.E and ALA and I'm wondering if this has any effect on the roll as well..

Those supplements will benefit your body tremendously. I would recommend you lower your ALA dosage to around 4-600mg; 1600mg is a quite obscene. I would suggest you take them about 30 minutes to an hour prior to rolling and not at the time of. Give your body some room to digest and kick the antioxidants into action. As far as potentiating your roll, that's mostly placebo in my experience. While vitamin C has been suggested to improve the effect of rolls throughout user experiences, there is no quantitative evidence to support this claim (at least that I have come across). These supplements are meant to alleviate the neurotoxicity associated with taking MDMA and help your body better metabolize it, not stimulate the roll further. Cheers!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on November 10, 2012, 02:52 am
Just wondering if anyone has any experience of taking these the same time you drop MDMA..
Vitamin E (around 1000ui)
ALA (alpha lipoic acid) (around 1500mg)
Vitamin C (around 1000mg)

Does it have any effects on the roll itself? I.e enhances it or dulls it?
I take Vitamin C before I roll and it does slightly enhance it for me but this could be a placebo.. But I've just acquired the Vit.E and ALA and I'm wondering if this has any effect on the roll as well..

Those supplements will benefit your body tremendously. I would recommend you lower your ALA dosage to around 4-600mg; 1600mg is a quite obscene. I would suggest you take them about 30 minutes to an hour prior to rolling and not at the time of. Give your body some room to digest and kick the antioxidants into action. As far as potentiating your roll, that's mostly placebo in my experience. While vitamin C has been suggested to improve the effect of rolls throughout user experiences, there is no quantitative evidence to support this claim (at least that I have come across). These supplements are meant to alleviate the neurotoxicity associated with taking MDMA and help your body better metabolize it, not stimulate the roll further. Cheers!

I do hope so, they were not cheap! ::) Do you think it'll help keep some the MDMA magic as well? At the moment I use MDMA about once every 2/3 months. I hope to keep the magic as much as possible..
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 10, 2012, 06:24 pm
Just wondering if anyone has any experience of taking these the same time you drop MDMA..
Vitamin E (around 1000ui)
ALA (alpha lipoic acid) (around 1500mg)
Vitamin C (around 1000mg)

Does it have any effects on the roll itself? I.e enhances it or dulls it?
I take Vitamin C before I roll and it does slightly enhance it for me but this could be a placebo.. But I've just acquired the Vit.E and ALA and I'm wondering if this has any effect on the roll as well..

Those supplements will benefit your body tremendously. I would recommend you lower your ALA dosage to around 4-600mg; 1600mg is a quite obscene. I would suggest you take them about 30 minutes to an hour prior to rolling and not at the time of. Give your body some room to digest and kick the antioxidants into action. As far as potentiating your roll, that's mostly placebo in my experience. While vitamin C has been suggested to improve the effect of rolls throughout user experiences, there is no quantitative evidence to support this claim (at least that I have come across). These supplements are meant to alleviate the neurotoxicity associated with taking MDMA and help your body better metabolize it, not stimulate the roll further. Cheers!

I do hope so, they were not cheap! ::) Do you think it'll help keep some the MDMA magic as well? At the moment I use MDMA about once every 2/3 months. I hope to keep the magic as much as possible..

I cannot tell you this as it is completely subjective to your brain chemistry, but it definitely helps aide in the recovery process and will better prevent any damage MDMA may cause. We still do not understand why we "lose the magic", and while some users have reported to lose it after their first use, some individuals never lose it. Check out the following page on erowid:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_effects_lossofmagic1.shtml
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: shoxmaxim12 on November 11, 2012, 06:03 pm
i once took too much mdma in one night with my friend, Made my last 400mg bomb dropped it and it did nothing. The next 4 days i exprienced eletronic shocks through out my body whenever a noise happened or i drifted off to sleep or something moved.

Each shock was like hearing static noise, i then saw a white flash and felt an eletric like shock down my body, this lasted for 4 days. My friend had the exact same symptoms.. it was horrible i got 4 hours sleep and couldn't go to work.

Im now very cauious when using MDMA, i seriously thought i might not be ever be normal again.

MDMA raped me, and i will never forget.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 11, 2012, 06:06 pm
oh shit.. me too..

its like a wakin up feelin after u leg falls asleep or when u sleep wrong. and the circulation is cut off

kinda like a tingly feeling.. or when u get like a bump on ur elbow it causes that lil weird faint reaction

i think that extra feelin is a plus u just gota get used to it..

it goes away.. just embrace it. u openin them locked doors of esp
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: shoxmaxim12 on November 11, 2012, 06:18 pm
oh shit.. me too..

its like a wakin up feelin after u leg falls asleep or when u sleep wrong. and the circulation is cut off

kinda like a tingly feeling.. or when u get like a bump on ur elbow it causes that lil weird faint reaction

i think that extra feelin is a plus u just gota get used to it..

it goes away.. just embrace it. u openin them locked doors of esp

Yes exactly, I did embrace it the first day then after that it was just silly, I did alot of research something relating to serotonin gland damage or something like that, in all honestly i was maj0r fuked off that the 400mg bomb did nothing -.-

I felt like being super fucking paronoid or having anexity issues but on another level .
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: metaphoe on November 11, 2012, 06:23 pm
i got scared too.. but i started understandin.. like the receptors that stick to the serotonin.. the dont deplete but once used that feelin can be felt again i think..

so even if we bring back all our receptors.. its never goin to feel the same.. takin more or less of it.. is just restartin the cycle..

what i did notice.. is that like lil' electric blue trails around the shapes and structures i look at..

kinda like a lighting bolt tracing the out line of every angle on the wall where the meet like in the corner.

the physical side effects become even stronger.. than the theraputical magic were used to..

i think about it now..and im like dam.. i wana roll..

but if i do.. i gotta have everything perfect..  the water.. or redbulls prolly amp it up too
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: sugarfree11 on November 12, 2012, 01:11 am
Quote

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.

Any chance you could share some of the sources/research? I'm very interested, and have been going through the trial/error method with quite a few multi's...
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: drganja on November 12, 2012, 06:55 am
Thanks for the info
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 13, 2012, 05:16 am
Quote

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.

Any chance you could share some of the sources/research? I'm very interested, and have been going through the trial/error method with quite a few multi's...

Truthfully this was years ago, but I remember one of the biggest things that stuck out to me was their supplements do not contain any additives (sugar, salt, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, milk, egg, shellfish or preservatives). If you check out store brands, they typically contain one or more of those. They have also received numerous awards, their customer service is top notch, and their products are always at a perfect price/quantity level. As far as a multivitamin, I personally use Controlled Lab's Orange Triad. I have tried various multivitamins but these have impressed me the most.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: railingcapz on November 14, 2012, 02:49 pm
Hello guys,

I have added a little info to Micron's old thread about decreasing MDMA neurotoxicity through cannabis. If any of you are interested or want to have a read you can find it here: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=15567.0

Enjoy the return of the Marketplace & stay safe!

Capz  8) 
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmdma on November 18, 2012, 07:55 pm
Quote

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.

Any chance you could share some of the sources/research? I'm very interested, and have been going through the trial/error method with quite a few multi's...

Truthfully this was years ago, but I remember one of the biggest things that stuck out to me was their supplements do not contain any additives (sugar, salt, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, milk, egg, shellfish or preservatives). If you check out store brands, they typically contain one or more of those. They have also received numerous awards, their customer service is top notch, and their products are always at a perfect price/quantity level. As far as a multivitamin, I personally use Controlled Lab's Orange Triad. I have tried various multivitamins but these have impressed me the most.


I too can vouch for NOW foods!

Also to contribute to the chit chat about losing the magic, you people who live in the USA should get your hands on some Piracetam. Have read many success stories of people getting their magic back by preloading 1-2 weeks before a roll with it. Too bad it's a prescription medicine in my country, otherwise I'd order a kilo from cerebral health :D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: napkins on November 19, 2012, 04:17 am
Wow, I must have fucked my shit up in highschool..  :-\
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 20, 2012, 09:06 pm
Wow, I must have fucked my shit up in highschool..  :-\

What was your usage like? Drug use during developmental stages is always a very risky thing. I can’t stress it enough to teenagers to abstain or take great caution and use drugs sparingly until their brain has fully developed before ingesting recreational chemicals because it DOES effect cognitive ability in the long term whether they choose to believe it or not. Obviously complete abstinence isn’t realistic as experimentation is at its height during high school, but harm reduction should be a staple with everyone’s use. It’s a shame that our education system doesn’t stress harm reduction in the states. Here’s to hopeful thinking that one day we will!

In any case, I’m quite interested to pick at your brain if you have the time. Like my previous question, can you outline your usage? What drugs did you partake and how often? Have you noticed any detriment now that your older, particularly in the realm of short term and long term memory?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Havacle on November 21, 2012, 03:36 am
Quote

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.

Any chance you could share some of the sources/research? I'm very interested, and have been going through the trial/error method with quite a few multi's...

Truthfully this was years ago, but I remember one of the biggest things that stuck out to me was their supplements do not contain any additives (sugar, salt, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, milk, egg, shellfish or preservatives). If you check out store brands, they typically contain one or more of those. They have also received numerous awards, their customer service is top notch, and their products are always at a perfect price/quantity level. As far as a multivitamin, I personally use Controlled Lab's Orange Triad. I have tried various multivitamins but these have impressed me the most.


I too can vouch for NOW foods!

Also to contribute to the chit chat about losing the magic, you people who live in the USA should get your hands on some Piracetam. Have read many success stories of people getting their magic back by preloading 1-2 weeks before a roll with it. Too bad it's a prescription medicine in my country, otherwise I'd order a kilo from cerebral health :D

NOW is great compared to wal-mart brands, for sure, but they are not very well regarded within the industry. They are a very cheap brand really, believe it or not. We have had some potency issues (lab tested) with them in the past, but that was many years ago. I know a lot of people like them, and I think many of their products are great deals. Anyway, just a perspective from the retail side of things.

On topic, lost magic some time ago. :(

Recently took a six month break, and while the magic didn't really seem to return much (basically it's almost more anxiety than pleasure, if that makes sense), my killer hangover seemed to be gone. So that's good. 
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 26, 2012, 05:50 am
Quote

I'm glad I could help! :) And yes, after countless hours of research I've concluded that NOW Foods is one of the greatest brands out there. I'll never shop anywhere else and always recommend them to all my friends. Their prices, quality, customer service, and overall philosophy is unparalleled in my opinion.

Any chance you could share some of the sources/research? I'm very interested, and have been going through the trial/error method with quite a few multi's...

Truthfully this was years ago, but I remember one of the biggest things that stuck out to me was their supplements do not contain any additives (sugar, salt, yeast, wheat, gluten, corn, soy, milk, egg, shellfish or preservatives). If you check out store brands, they typically contain one or more of those. They have also received numerous awards, their customer service is top notch, and their products are always at a perfect price/quantity level. As far as a multivitamin, I personally use Controlled Lab's Orange Triad. I have tried various multivitamins but these have impressed me the most.


I too can vouch for NOW foods!

Also to contribute to the chit chat about losing the magic, you people who live in the USA should get your hands on some Piracetam. Have read many success stories of people getting their magic back by preloading 1-2 weeks before a roll with it. Too bad it's a prescription medicine in my country, otherwise I'd order a kilo from cerebral health :D

NOW is great compared to wal-mart brands, for sure, but they are not very well regarded within the industry. They are a very cheap brand really, believe it or not. We have had some potency issues (lab tested) with them in the past, but that was many years ago. I know a lot of people like them, and I think many of their products are great deals. Anyway, just a perspective from the retail side of things.

On topic, lost magic some time ago. :(

Recently took a six month break, and while the magic didn't really seem to return much (basically it's almost more anxiety than pleasure, if that makes sense), my killer hangover seemed to be gone. So that's good.

Can you comment further on their potency issues?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jnemonic on November 27, 2012, 12:50 am
Great post. It is indeed an amazing substance. ;D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: h3n on November 28, 2012, 12:13 pm
Sorry if I'm being dumb here, but AnimusVox, could you please explain your suggestion like I'm 5 years old?

I'm to take a Controlled Labs Orange Triad every day. What else should I have on hand and how should I use them?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on November 28, 2012, 03:22 pm
Those who are using Piracetam to bring back the magic, I find it way more effective if you take the Piracetam about 30/60mins before you drop the MDMA, rather than pre-loading with it for days/weeks before hand. At a dose around 2400mg.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: NotMe123 on November 29, 2012, 12:55 am
just keeping an eye on this thread
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: blueberry34 on November 29, 2012, 05:13 am
thank you for this! awesome information. learned a lot. i will definitely be living by these rules from now on.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Slicksuit on November 29, 2012, 11:42 am
Green tea before and after, along with a healthy diet and lifestyle has kept Slicksuit (myself) in good shape physically and mentally, although he loves his MDMA.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 29, 2012, 02:20 pm
Sorry if I'm being dumb here, but AnimusVox, could you please explain your suggestion like I'm 5 years old?

I'm to take a Controlled Labs Orange Triad every day. What else should I have on hand and how should I use them?

Have a good diet and exercise regularly. Take a multivitamin daily (Controlled Labs Orange Triad). The day of rolling, load up on a nutritious meal. Thirty minutes prior to ingesting MDMA, take vitamin C, vitamin E, Co-Q10, alpha lipoic acid (ALA), and magnesium citrate. Seven hours after ingesting MDMA, take 300mg of 5-HTP and pump your body with healthy food (soups, fruits, and vegetables). Sleep. Wake up feeling like a badass.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: secretwork on November 29, 2012, 03:53 pm
Excellent thread  :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckingACE on November 29, 2012, 11:32 pm
Please, for the sake of your health and cognitive functioning, spread your rolls out at least 2-3 months. The reasoning is simple. MDMA releases then depletes serotonin in vast amounts and inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. Taking MDMA prior to this restoration process is altogether stupid. Your body's reproduction of serotonin is already inhibited and by taking the substance during this healing period will start the entire process over.

MDMA's mechanisms work as follows:

Quote
MDMA binds to the SERT and reverses it causing a dump of serotonin. The hypothalamus directs the release of cortisol (an 800% increase) and ADH as a defense response to combat the serotonin release. This increases the speed at which serotonin is metabolized in the brain.

This is the "come-up." A sharp spike in serotonin characterized by a rise in cortisol levels. Skyrocketing cortisol levels are responsible for the come-up anxiety many users describe. And the rise in serotonin can sometimes cause nausea or bowel problems.

Next: Serotonin is an inhibitor of dopamine in 3 out of 4 pathways. The brain-wide rise in serotonin levels is clogging up dopamine pathways and causing a buildup. Serotonin and cortisol levels both spike and begin to fall. When serotonin drops, the dopamine pathways open up and a rush of dopamine is released. Imagine a dam breaking. And with the rush of dopamine comes a release of oxytocin and prolactin into the bloodstream a la the hypothalamus.

This is the "peak." Characterized by a fall in serotonin and a rush of dopamine in the mesolimbic pathway. The true 'magic' of MDMA is a systematic release of dopamine, prolactin, and oxytocin, not serotonin.

Dosing also plays a very large part in MDMA neurotoxicity as well, as it scales exponentially the more you take at a given time. With higher doses you are prone to hyperthermia and a decrease in antioxidant levels to deal with metabolites. While we lack the quantitative data for measuring the true damage done to a human due to obvious reasons, the neurotoxicity is very well established within mice and rats (see footnotes) and caution should be taken when choosing how much MDMA to ingest (1.5mg/Kg, more on that below).

While the choice to roll often is obviously at the user's discretion, the best experience is had by maintaining this healthy time frame and also following a few general guidelines.

Eat right and exercise. This is a no-brainer. The healthier you are, the better your body will be able metabolize MDMA.

Enjoy MDMA for what it is and don't utilize it to get intoxicated. It is meant to bring about an incredible experience that, for me at least, gives a profound outlook on life as a whole. Self control is a big part of this. Learn to resist the urge to take it, especially when under the influence of alcohol. The two really should NOT be combined. Respect the substance and it will respect you.

Know your dose and do not re-dose! The general rule of thumb for dosing pure MDMA is 1.5mg/Kg. Given you have no tolerance, this is an excellent guideline and should be practiced thoroughly. If need be, take a booster (typically half of your initial dose) no later than T+1:00/1:30! Any subsequent doses will only greatly increase neurotoxicity and make the negative effects much more profound.

Pre-load, post-load! Pre-load, post-load! This is CRITICAL and there is no reason not to do this as the vitamins are cheap and very effective. Antioxidants prior to your roll will largely alleviate neurotoxicity. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid are all phenomenal antioxidants. A few other notables are Magnesium citrate for bruxism (jaw clenching) and Ginger Root for nausea. It is typically advised to take these one hour prior to rolling. Following your roll (when you are COMPLETELY DONE in order to avoid serotonin syndrome, so ~6-7 hours after dosing), a moderate dose (2-300mg, don't overdo it people) of 5-HTP will help begin the restoration process. If available, taking an SSRI on your comedown is very beneficial as it will prevent the uptake of nasty metabolites. A multivitamin at the end of your roll is also phenomenal in all regards, and while you won't want to, EAT! EAT LOTS OF FOOD!  Pump your body with nutrients. You just exhausted your mind and body and it needs to refuel! Soups, fruits, and vegetables are great for the comedown and light on the stomach.

Stay hydrated but don't overdo it. This is the biggest 'duh' guideline, but it still needs to be reiterated. Drink a reasonable amount of water to compensate for whatever activity you're participating in, especially if you're dancing. Dehydration is not something you want to be playing with.

All in all, MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug and much care needs to be taken when experiencing it and it can be near completely unharmful if all the proper caution is taken. Respect your substance, know your body, and know your dose.

Here are some great resources... (CLEARNET WARNING)

On neurotoxicity:

http://dancesafe.org/drug-information/ecstasy-and-neurotoxicity
http://www.erowid.org/references/refs_view.php?ID=750
http://jop.sagepub.com/content/24/2/175

On supplements/SSRIs:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10619665
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2433425
http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_article3.shtml
http://www.neurosoup.com/schedule1/mdmamainpage.htm

And of course, the main erowid MDMA page will inform you of everything I've told you!

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/

If anyone has anything to add or if you noticed a mistake in this post, please share it with me! Knowledge is power after all. Happy tripping everyone. Stay safe and be smart. :)
When I was younger I took pills weekly for about a year, to the point when now, about 10 years later without having taken any, It dosent really get me high, It just makes me tired and grumpy. Also I´ve changed a lot, not as happy, not as high on life.. I would say your post is very true and I´ve got a fraction of the serotonin left that I had before :P now if you could provide an article to fixing my brain that would be great lol :P Wish I had seen this when I was 16 lol
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jackboii on November 30, 2012, 05:50 am
i believe i have damaged alot of my seratonin, but i also believe there is still hope to get that "magic".

i am currently trying to get off oxy's , because if you all didn't know, whether you believe it or not oxy's/roxy's cancel out ALOT of the magic if not all of it, yeah youll feel it if you take MDMA but you wont get what MDMA is supposed to give you.

i have done alot of M in my time and every recent time i have tooken it i havent gotten any magic because of these damn roxys, trying to get off them now and plan for (not this weekend) but the next weekend and try and pop off and see the REAL difference. what would suggestions be to load up on? my friend gave me some "prescription" seratonin rebuilder pills, i have 5htp, i think vitamin c too, what else should i load up on this weekend/following week so i could get the best fucking roll?

just wondering because im tired of dropping and not getting my magic, lately ill drop and just feel floored/tired/not wanting to be around anyone.. because of the fucking roxys. ill be done detoxing hopefully by monday, but for the meantime what do you all suggest that i do to load up on shit, vitamin wise to make sure i get my "MAGIC"

please any and all comments and feedback would help, im trying to blow the fuck up next weekend, thanks.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: HoodooVoodoo on November 30, 2012, 08:44 am
Thanks AV for your insight! Have learnt so much reading through this thread.
Anyhow, I was wondering thoughts on this products (clearnet):
http://www.swisse.com/products/superfoods/superfood-ultivite#!ingredients
Has most of the antioxidants/supplements mentioned throughout the thread among many, many others.
Does it look like a good buy, or are the amounts of the key supplements for the purpose of combating neurotoxicity too minimal to be of any tangible benefit?
This would of course be paired with a course of 5HTP.
Cheers!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckingACE on November 30, 2012, 09:57 am
i believe i have damaged alot of my seratonin, but i also believe there is still hope to get that "magic".

i am currently trying to get off oxy's , because if you all didn't know, whether you believe it or not oxy's/roxy's cancel out ALOT of the magic if not all of it, yeah youll feel it if you take MDMA but you wont get what MDMA is supposed to give you.

i have done alot of M in my time and every recent time i have tooken it i havent gotten any magic because of these damn roxys, trying to get off them now and plan for (not this weekend) but the next weekend and try and pop off and see the REAL difference. what would suggestions be to load up on? my friend gave me some "prescription" seratonin rebuilder pills, i have 5htp, i think vitamin c too, what else should i load up on this weekend/following week so i could get the best fucking roll?

just wondering because im tired of dropping and not getting my magic, lately ill drop and just feel floored/tired/not wanting to be around anyone.. because of the fucking roxys. ill be done detoxing hopefully by monday, but for the meantime what do you all suggest that i do to load up on shit, vitamin wise to make sure i get my "MAGIC"

please any and all comments and feedback would help, im trying to blow the fuck up next weekend, thanks.
I get the same feeling but I dont take Oxy´s or any type of opiate at the mo.

I´ve decieded to take St John´s wort to help with the mood and 5HTP on the regs.. You mentioned a prescription only serotonin rebuilder pills? brand name and chemical?
ACE
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jackboii on November 30, 2012, 05:45 pm
i believe i have damaged alot of my seratonin, but i also believe there is still hope to get that "magic".

i am currently trying to get off oxy's , because if you all didn't know, whether you believe it or not oxy's/roxy's cancel out ALOT of the magic if not all of it, yeah youll feel it if you take MDMA but you wont get what MDMA is supposed to give you.

i have done alot of M in my time and every recent time i have tooken it i havent gotten any magic because of these damn roxys, trying to get off them now and plan for (not this weekend) but the next weekend and try and pop off and see the REAL difference. what would suggestions be to load up on? my friend gave me some "prescription" seratonin rebuilder pills, i have 5htp, i think vitamin c too, what else should i load up on this weekend/following week so i could get the best fucking roll?

just wondering because im tired of dropping and not getting my magic, lately ill drop and just feel floored/tired/not wanting to be around anyone.. because of the fucking roxys. ill be done detoxing hopefully by monday, but for the meantime what do you all suggest that i do to load up on shit, vitamin wise to make sure i get my "MAGIC"

please any and all comments and feedback would help, im trying to blow the fuck up next weekend, thanks.
I get the same feeling but I dont take Oxy´s or any type of opiate at the mo.

I´ve decieded to take St John´s wort to help with the mood and 5HTP on the regs.. You mentioned a prescription only serotonin rebuilder pills? brand name and chemical?
ACE

paroxetine, friends got a script and got my hands on a bunch of them, i am starting to take them today only in halfs because my friend says they have side effects if taken whole and your body isnt used to it.

Paroxetine is an antidepressant in a group of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Paroxetine affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced. "quote from a website"

hopefully these actually work and help! because im sick of not being able to get magic no more, ill be off oxys by this coming week, taking this and loading up on vitamins and shit, what vitamins do you all recommend i load up on this whole weekend/week to try and get my magic back and have a nice roll?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on November 30, 2012, 07:53 pm
Thanks AV for your insight! Have learnt so much reading through this thread.
Anyhow, I was wondering thoughts on this products (clearnet):
http://www.swisse.com/products/superfoods/superfood-ultivite#!ingredients
Has most of the antioxidants/supplements mentioned throughout the thread among many, many others.
Does it look like a good buy, or are the amounts of the key supplements for the purpose of combating neurotoxicity too minimal to be of any tangible benefit?
This would of course be paired with a course of 5HTP.
Cheers!

This seems like a solid multivitamin but I would be hesitant to take it with MDMA considering I am unaware of any potential interactions between the herbal supplements it contains. I would have to go through each one individually and check for interactions, so truthfully you are better off simply taking the supplements I have listed individually.

paroxetine, friends got a script and got my hands on a bunch of them, i am starting to take them today only in halfs because my friend says they have side effects if taken whole and your body isnt used to it.

Paroxetine is an antidepressant in a group of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Paroxetine affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced. "quote from a website"

hopefully these actually work and help! because im sick of not being able to get magic no more, ill be off oxys by this coming week, taking this and loading up on vitamins and shit, what vitamins do you all recommend i load up on this whole weekend/week to try and get my magic back and have a nice roll?

I think you're mistaking what an SSRI actually does. SSRI's will completely remove any chance you have of rolling on MDMA and will in no way, shape, or form bring back the magic. Check the following page out:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jackboii on December 01, 2012, 06:22 am
Thanks AV for your insight! Have learnt so much reading through this thread.
Anyhow, I was wondering thoughts on this products (clearnet):
http://www.swisse.com/products/superfoods/superfood-ultivite#!ingredients
Has most of the antioxidants/supplements mentioned throughout the thread among many, many others.
Does it look like a good buy, or are the amounts of the key supplements for the purpose of combating neurotoxicity too minimal to be of any tangible benefit?
This would of course be paired with a course of 5HTP.
Cheers!

This seems like a solid multivitamin but I would be hesitant to take it with MDMA considering I am unaware of any potential interactions between the herbal supplements it contains. I would have to go through each one individually and check for interactions, so truthfully you are better off simply taking the supplements I have listed individually.

paroxetine, friends got a script and got my hands on a bunch of them, i am starting to take them today only in halfs because my friend says they have side effects if taken whole and your body isnt used to it.

Paroxetine is an antidepressant in a group of drugs called selective serotonin reuptake inhibitors (SSRIs). Paroxetine affects chemicals in the brain that may become unbalanced. "quote from a website"

hopefully these actually work and help! because im sick of not being able to get magic no more, ill be off oxys by this coming week, taking this and loading up on vitamins and shit, what vitamins do you all recommend i load up on this whole weekend/week to try and get my magic back and have a nice roll?

I think you're mistaking what an SSRI actually does. SSRI's will completely remove any chance you have of rolling on MDMA and will in no way, shape, or form bring back the magic. Check the following page out:

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_info9.shtml

so now that i have learned that what would you suggest i load up on all this week ? specifics please, like not just the vitamin name maybe like a brand of product that i could buy to build up whatever i need to build up to be able to have me magic > :  )
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: primary amine on December 01, 2012, 03:34 pm
... inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. ...

I totally agree with your post - and +1 for the great info.

Isn't there some disagreement in the literature about this point though, as much of what we know comes from studies on mice or meta studies involving polydrug use? Can you supply a reference for this particular point about permanent damage? I'd love to get to the bottom of this one.

He is talking about permanent inhibition of an enzyme, which does not mean "permanent damage."  The particular enzyme molecules that are permanently inhibited will never again perform their catalytic function, but the cell will eventuallly make more of the enzyme.  So the statement you quoted does not state or imply permanent damage.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: iAmMe on December 01, 2012, 05:40 pm
Thank you for everyone that chimed in! This def needs to be stickied
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: SandSnake on December 01, 2012, 10:24 pm
Thank you for putting all this invaluable info in one place. I am commenting to keep this near the top and to bookmark it for myself.

As a side note, how do the guidelines for pre/post loading and spacing out doses, etc work in regards to MDA? And what about MDMA/MDA cross tolerance?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 01, 2012, 10:57 pm
Thank you for putting all this invaluable info in one place. I am commenting to keep this near the top and to bookmark it for myself.

As a side note, how do the guidelines for pre/post loading and spacing out doses, etc work in regards to MDA? And what about MDMA/MDA cross tolerance?

The pre/post loading practices and spacing are exactly the same. MDA and MDMA act very similarly and have an affinity for the same receptors, and it has actually been noted in medical literature that MDA may be even more neurotoxic than MDMA. Do not lead yourself to believe you can slip an MDA roll in between the advised waiting period and the restoration process will not be affected negatively. Here are a few studies:

http://www.jneurosci.org/content/8/8/2788.full.pdf
http://www.maps.org/publications/1987_stone_3.pdf
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1784586
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: PrincessHIGH on December 06, 2012, 01:06 am
I know I've found this thread a little late (better late than never lol!)  +1 AnimusVox for the insight, knowledge, and effort posted, a very enjoyable read, thank-you! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: RKL on December 06, 2012, 06:45 am
thanks for the info great thread,i wanna try xtc for the first time this will help
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: ephedrone on December 06, 2012, 10:15 pm
Great post with a lots of information. +1 karma when/if I reach 100 posts  ;D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: BlueGiraffe on December 06, 2012, 10:56 pm
Please, for the sake of your health and cognitive functioning, spread your rolls out at least 2-3 months. The reasoning is simple. MDMA releases then depletes serotonin in vast amounts and inhibits the enzyme responsible for producing more serotonin, tryptophan hydroxylase (TPH). The inhibition is permanent, so the body must compensate by creating more and this restoration typically takes 1-3 months. Taking MDMA prior to this restoration process is altogether stupid. Your body's reproduction of serotonin is already inhibited and by taking the substance during this healing period will start the entire process over.

Dosing also plays a very large part in MDMA neurotoxicity as well, as it scales exponentially the more you take at a given time. With higher doses you are prone to hyperthermia and a decrease in antioxidant levels to deal with metabolites. While we lack the quantitative data for measuring the true damage done to a human due to obvious reasons, the neurotoxicity is very well established within mice and rats (see footnotes) and caution should be taken when choosing how much MDMA to ingest (1.5mg/Kg, more on that below).

While the choice to roll often is obviously at the user's discretion, the best experience is had by maintaining this healthy time frame and also following a few general guidelines.

Eat right and exercise. This is a no-brainer. The healthier you are, the better your body will be able metabolize MDMA.

Enjoy MDMA for what it is and don't utilize it to get intoxicated. It is meant to bring about an incredible experience that, for me at least, gives a profound outlook on life as a whole. Self control is a big part of this. Learn to resist the urge to take it, especially when under the influence of alcohol. The two really should NOT be combined. Respect the substance and it will respect you.

Know your dose and do not re-dose! The general rule of thumb for dosing pure MDMA is 1.5mg/Kg. Given you have no tolerance, this is an excellent guideline and should be practiced thoroughly. If need be, take a booster (typically half of your initial dose) no later than T+1:00/1:30! Any subsequent doses will only greatly increase neurotoxicity and make the negative effects much more profound.

Pre-load, post-load! Pre-load, post-load! This is CRITICAL and there is no reason not to do this as the vitamins are cheap and very effective. Antioxidants prior to your roll will largely alleviate neurotoxicity. Vitamin C, Vitamin E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid are all phenomenal antioxidants. A few other notables are Magnesium citrate for bruxism (jaw clenching) and Ginger Root for nausea. It is typically advised to take these one hour prior to rolling. Following your roll (when you are COMPLETELY DONE in order to avoid serotonin syndrome, so ~6-7 hours after dosing), a moderate dose (2-300mg, don't overdo it people) of 5-HTP will help begin the restoration process. If available, taking an SSRI on your comedown is very beneficial as it will prevent the uptake of nasty metabolites. A multivitamin at the end of your roll is also phenomenal in all regards, and while you won't want to, EAT! EAT LOTS OF FOOD!  Pump your body with nutrients. You just exhausted your mind and body and it needs to refuel! Soups, fruits, and vegetables are great for the comedown and light on the stomach.

Stay hydrated but don't overdo it. This is the biggest 'duh' guideline, but it still needs to be reiterated. Drink a reasonable amount of water to compensate for whatever activity you're participating in, especially if you're dancing. Dehydration is not something you want to be playing with.

All in all, MDMA is an absolutely amazing drug and much care needs to be taken when experiencing it and it can be near completely unharmful if all the proper caution is taken. Respect your substance, know your body, and know your dose.

If anyone has anything to add or if you noticed a mistake in this post, please share it with me! Knowledge is power after all. Happy tripping everyone. Stay safe and be smart. :)

Hey AnimusVox

Awesome, wise and beneficial post!

So important that you addressed the issue of re-dosing, as in my experience this is where the neurotoxicity is greatly exacerbated. I agree that only one booster should be taken and also that it should be within T+1h30 at the latest. I would also add that I think that the booster dose should be AT MOST 50% of the initial dose, but ideally should be closer to a 1/3, i.e. 110mg + 40mg will be less neurotoxic than 100mg + 50mg (total dose of 150mg in both cases) even if timing is identical.

Another thing I would mention is that the primary reason people re-dose (and re-dose) is because no-one really wants to leave that space of grace - and so, in the heat of the moment with the strong desire to extend the pleasure, many will simply re-dose again despite knowing about the potential toxicity.

Exercising intelligence here, the trick is to transition from the MDMA to another drug that (a) is not neurotoxic, (b) allows extension of the MDMA space, and (c) has a baseline transition that is more gentle than MDMA and easier to endure.

There are two drugs that serve this very well; 2C-B and GHB [Full Disclosure: I am a vendor of GHB].

Both allow a significant extension of the MDMA space while also creating a far smoother and benign transition towards baseline (and also better psychological/emotional integration of the MDMA consciousness with the normal waking state).

Please see here http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=90975.0 for more detailed information on how to use MDMA and GHB together.

Options that work well are:

MDMA + GHB
MDMA + 2C-B
MDMA + 2C-B + GHB

When these two drugs are used together with MDMA the whole experience is enriched, and more pleasure can be derived for less total MDMA ingested - which ultimately serves the protection of the nervous system.

BG

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 07, 2012, 12:23 am
+1, BlueGiraffe. Tapering an MDMA comedown with 2C-B is absolutely beautiful. It offers for a much more lucid experience and is phenomenal for music festivals so you don't have to overly tax your brain on those long three days weekends. I have found taking 20-30mg at the T+4:00 mark to suit my personal needs. My absolute favorite combination, however, is when LSD is coupled with the other two under a timeline as such:

T+0:00: 300ug LSD
T+2:00: 140mg MDMA
T+6:00: 30mg 2C-B

No other combination I have ever partaken in is as divine. :)

As for GHB, I skimmed through your thread and it's definitely peaked my interest. I've personally never dabbled in it but it seems like quite an interesting substance! I'll have to grab a bit from you sometime in the near future. Thanks for the addition to the thread!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: BlueGiraffe on December 07, 2012, 01:10 am
Yeah that should do it!!

That's tripped - just a couple days ago I posted an almost identical "favourite combo" here: http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=90964.0 (see towards the end of the thread)

We clearly have very similar drug tastes :)

Adding GHB at the end of the LSD-MDMA-2CB sequence is totally exquisite - brings in a very deep eroticism and strong sexual energy (and is very playful) and rounds out the whole experience beautifully...

Check your mail :)

BG
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 19, 2012, 09:50 pm
Bump! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: PurpleBalloons54 on December 20, 2012, 03:10 am
Great 1st post and overall great thread.  Thanks AnimusVox.

@Animus-  Some forum users have suggested micro-dosing MDMA on a continual basis to help with anxiety.  The listed positive effects of MDMA (less anxiety, a greater desire to connect with others, artificially increased trust) could be beneficial to me from a psychotherapy standpoint, but I'm concerned about long-term continual usage w/ regard to toxicity.

Any thoughts/opinions on this?

Much appreciated.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: BlueGiraffe on December 20, 2012, 08:04 pm
Great 1st post and overall great thread.  Thanks AnimusVox.

@Animus-  Some forum users have suggested micro-dosing MDMA on a continual basis to help with anxiety.  The listed positive effects of MDMA (less anxiety, a greater desire to connect with others, artificially increased trust) could be beneficial to me from a psychotherapy standpoint, but I'm concerned about long-term continual usage w/ regard to toxicity.

Any thoughts/opinions on this?

Much appreciated.

Personally I do not think that is a good idea at all.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 20, 2012, 08:28 pm
Great 1st post and overall great thread.  Thanks AnimusVox.

@Animus-  Some forum users have suggested micro-dosing MDMA on a continual basis to help with anxiety.  The listed positive effects of MDMA (less anxiety, a greater desire to connect with others, artificially increased trust) could be beneficial to me from a psychotherapy standpoint, but I'm concerned about long-term continual usage w/ regard to toxicity.

Any thoughts/opinions on this?

Much appreciated.

Personally I do not think that is a good idea at all.

BlueGiraffe is right, this is not a good idea. I would highly recommend against it due to MDMA's method of action, neurotoxicity, and sharp increase in tolerance. I believe you would find microdosing MDMA to actually provide for adverse effects and an INCREASE anxiety due to it's inhibition of serotonin production. Those recommendations are completely ill advised. MDMA use, at any dose, is best kept spread out 2-3 months.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Orinoko Flow on December 20, 2012, 10:23 pm
I know I've found this thread a little late (better late than never lol!)  +1 AnimusVox for the insight, knowledge, and effort posted, a very enjoyable read, thank-you! :)

me too, i have had long periods of rollin on a weekly basis during the early nineties for maybe 2-4 years with small breaks, recently i use about 600mg weekly. :o I feel a new years resolution coming on....  Ive had small adverse effects including a small period of brain zaps that have now gone and my glands went up abit a few weeks ago..  Thanks for the wake up call... +1
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on December 26, 2012, 06:26 pm
Thanks Animus for this essential thread. I came across this, it seems aspirin prevents mda neurotoxicity.

http://www.mdma.net/aspirin/index.html
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Pillows on December 26, 2012, 06:34 pm
Still curious about the effects of an IV ROA on neurotoxicity if you were able to find anything Animus!

My cousin IV'd a little more than .4 of high-quality (from dutchaandbod) in one night. He's got a bad diet and no exercise and i'm wondering what kind of damage that could have caused.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jnemonic on December 26, 2012, 10:41 pm
It wouldnt have caused much damage if at all any, but IV'ing mdma is just a bad idea.
I remember selling someone a cap of pure M(200mg) and he IV'd the whole lot. Looked like someone had thrown a bucket of water on him, he was a mess.

Has anyone combined MDMA/2C-B and 5-MeO-MiPT(Moxy) together?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckingACE on December 26, 2012, 11:40 pm
So I took your advice, got ST. Johns wort and 5HTP delivered today. will try it out for a month and see if it helps my frazzled brain. I´ll reply back with results.
ACE
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckingACE on December 27, 2012, 12:13 am
i havent read earlier posts in this thread ^ but 5htp and st johns really arent the answer. take 5htp for a few days after rolling and maybe st johns from time to time when you are EXTRA low, but not regularly. The best thing to do is diet and exercise.

Source - I have Od'd and also abused MDxx quite a lot before quitting and my brain is not in the best of shape. Time is your friend.
I´m glad you posted..

I took pills pretty much every day for an 11 month period, a few days off here and there. to the point it did nothing to me. Had days where I ate 10 - 15 good pills and just felt sleepy. lol I know it was stupid but I was young and selling stupid amounts of them. always at parties.

One very strange thing that started to happen and still does even if I have 1 dose of MDMA now. When I drift off to sleep I get woken up with a start, like lucid dreaming an explosion. feels like something in my head goes bang.. i never get it when not having taken MDMA It will happen 4 or 5 times before I manage to sleep. 10 years on,

I dunno how I´ve changed because I dont remember what I was like before then. Definitely smarter I think, more creative. more outgoing.. I guess I just wanted the st johns and 5htp to lift the old mood a bit... I hear its good at that,,

Its useless wishing the damage to go away, just preventing it from happening in the future. Any suggestions? lol

ACE
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on December 27, 2012, 08:36 am
Drugs and the Damage they Cause

All right, so lots of people here talking about fucking up their brains good and proud off eating too much MDMA and worried about what they did to themselves. I get that it's a pretty big deal but I think most people are looking at their body and mind as some sort of clear slate which, prior to their offenses, were majestic and pure.

It wasn't.

We are sitting here trying to make a qualitative analysis of the damage done by ingesting a chemical and comparing us then and now to determine if we are the same person. We are not. The chemical changed us. There is simply no disagreement there. This drug and most drugs change who we are. But you know what? So does exercise. So does the choice of laundry detergent we use. So does the repetition with which we perform mundane tasks. So does every little thing on this entire planet change us is some large or small way. If no one took drugs there would still be cancer. There would still be car accidents. There would still be loss. And there would still be happiness.

I think it's funny that we live in a world where a chemical that makes people happy is condemned to stigma while we happily eat billions of chickens a year pumped full of stuff that would make a chemist cry. Our diets consist of high fructose corn syrup and processed everything. Life is toxic. The world we have created is toxic. Every breath you take is counting down to that last one and you have no idea if that's going to come tomorrow or in seventy years.

So yes, MDMA will fuck up your brain. If you want to enjoy it don't do too much of it too often. But for those that have binged and lament over the self they lost I would suggest that the person you are missing was dying anyway. We were all more brilliant when we were younger. We were all less depressed when we had an optimistic life full of endless possibilities ahead of us. It used to be much easier for all of us to get off the couch and partake in some grand adventure. But with or without the drugs we are all headed the same direction. I love getting old. I love not being the same person I was when I was younger. I love that life keeps changing and I have to keep finding some way to adapt to the person I am becoming.

I get the whole thing about harm reduction and I couldn't agree more. I just think it's important to point out that if you spared yourself the drugs the person you would likely be is still very similar to the one you are now. Addictive people will binge on anything. Exercise, food, love, sex, caffeine or whatever. The little bit of damage caused by the MDMA might be better or worse than that caused by an STD from a sex addiction, the diabetes from a food addiction or the battered and sore joints of an exercise addiction.

So do what you can to enjoy life. If you, like me, occasionally take things to excess, that's just who we are. It's our life and it's ok. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone about the damage mitigation but we all know some people get fucked on a substance and others don't. Because the stuff we enjoy is illegal, most all of the information we get about it is biased and often incorrect. A lot of the complaints I hear from chronic users are similar to complaints I hear from anyone that is getting older. Maybe the drugs make it worse for some folks. Maybe they would have been better off never taking it but odds are you would have found some other way to squander your youth and regret it's passing.

Anyway, do what you can to be safe. I love everybody and I hope they love themselves too. If you binge like mad though from time to time just try and remember you're still you. No one really cares if it takes you a second to remember just the right word you are thinking of because they all do the same thing too. If these evil drugs ever became legal they could finally do some real science and start giving us some real harm prevention ideas but for right now most everything we have is based on rats and hearsay. I'm pretty sure that the average dose of MDMA will eventually be associated with the same risk factors as a bacon double cheese burger, large order of fries and a tall Mt. Dew.

Anyway, that's my rant. I really didn't feel like I could join a drug forum without going off on at least one senseless tangent about how drugs are bad but so is everything else in the world.

Long Live the Road!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckingACE on December 27, 2012, 09:10 am
Drugs and the Damage they Cause

All right, so lots of people here talking about fucking up their brains good and proud off eating too much MDMA and worried about what they did to themselves. I get that it's a pretty big deal but I think most people are looking at their body and mind as some sort of clear slate which, prior to their offenses, were majestic and pure.

It wasn't.

We are sitting here trying to make a qualitative analysis of the damage done by ingesting a chemical and comparing us then and now to determine if we are the same person. We are not. The chemical changed us. There is simply no disagreement there. This drug and most drugs change who we are. But you know what? So does exercise. So does the choice of laundry detergent we use. So does the repetition with which we perform mundane tasks. So does every little thing on this entire planet change us is some large or small way. If no one took drugs there would still be cancer. There would still be car accidents. There would still be loss. And there would still be happiness.

I think it's funny that we live in a world where a chemical that makes people happy is condemned to stigma while we happily eat billions of chickens a year pumped full of stuff that would make a chemist cry. Our diets consist of high fructose corn syrup and processed everything. Life is toxic. The world we have created is toxic. Every breath you take is counting down to that last one and you have no idea if that's going to come tomorrow or in seventy years.

So yes, MDMA will fuck up your brain. If you want to enjoy it don't do too much of it too often. But for those that have binged and lament over the self they lost I would suggest that the person you are missing was dying anyway. We were all more brilliant when we were younger. We were all less depressed when we had an optimistic life full of endless possibilities ahead of us. It used to be much easier for all of us to get off the couch and partake in some grand adventure. But with or without the drugs we are all headed the same direction. I love getting old. I love not being the same person I was when I was younger. I love that life keeps changing and I have to keep finding some way to adapt to the person I am becoming.

I get the whole thing about harm reduction and I couldn't agree more. I just think it's important to point out that if you spared yourself the drugs the person you would likely be is still very similar to the one you are now. Addictive people will binge on anything. Exercise, food, love, sex, caffeine or whatever. The little bit of damage caused by the MDMA might be better or worse than that caused by an STD from a sex addiction, the diabetes from a food addiction or the battered and sore joints of an exercise addiction.

So do what you can to enjoy life. If you, like me, occasionally take things to excess, that's just who we are. It's our life and it's ok. I'm not trying to disagree with anyone about the damage mitigation but we all know some people get fucked on a substance and others don't. Because the stuff we enjoy is illegal, most all of the information we get about it is biased and often incorrect. A lot of the complaints I hear from chronic users are similar to complaints I hear from anyone that is getting older. Maybe the drugs make it worse for some folks. Maybe they would have been better off never taking it but odds are you would have found some other way to squander your youth and regret it's passing.

Anyway, do what you can to be safe. I love everybody and I hope they love themselves too. If you binge like mad though from time to time just try and remember you're still you. No one really cares if it takes you a second to remember just the right word you are thinking of because they all do the same thing too. If these evil drugs ever became legal they could finally do some real science and start giving us some real harm prevention ideas but for right now most everything we have is based on rats and hearsay. I'm pretty sure that the average dose of MDMA will eventually be associated with the same risk factors as a bacon double cheese burger, large order of fries and a tall Mt. Dew.

Anyway, that's my rant. I really didn't feel like I could join a drug forum without going off on at least one senseless tangent about how drugs are bad but so is everything else in the world.

Long Live the Road!
+1 for you sir
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on December 28, 2012, 12:58 pm
Does Animus Vox or anyone else would know if the following statement happens to be true ? It's about taking L-Tyrosine after MDMA use.

Quote
Main point is that dopamine goes into your seratonin channels when there's no seratonin in them. This is the cause of neurotoxicity. You know how you get skin cancer from the oxidative effect of UV light rays on your skin? Dopamine going into your seratonin channels has an oxidative effect on those channels... hmmmm.
So if you take L-tyr you boost up your dopamine levels... which means more dopamine available to go into your seratonin channels... which means more neurotoxicity.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 28, 2012, 10:53 pm
Hey everyone! I've been incredibly busy this past week with the holidays and have only been able to pop on the forums for a bit, so thanks for bearing with me! :)

Still curious about the effects of an IV ROA on neurotoxicity if you were able to find anything Animus!

My cousin IV'd a little more than .4 of high-quality (from dutchaandbod) in one night. He's got a bad diet and no exercise and i'm wondering what kind of damage that could have caused.

I wasn't able to find any definitive information, I'm afraid, but I still stand by my statement that the neurotoxicity is the same, especially at those ludicrous dosages. There is absolutely no reason to be doing 400mg of MDMA intravenously in one night and to be completely blunt, that is utterly stupid.

So I took your advice, got ST. Johns wort and 5HTP delivered today. will try it out for a month and see if it helps my frazzled brain. I´ll reply back with results.
ACE

Aurelius hit the nail on the head with both substances, but I'll elaborate further. 5-HTP should be used in the week prior to rolling to boost serotonin to their optimum levels. A daily dosage of 100mg, typically at night time, the week up to but NOT the day prior is the best use. For instance, you're rolling on Saturday. Start taking 5-HTP Sunday-Thursday (not Friday, this is to avoid the potential for serotonin syndrome). 5-HTP is also great for post-loading the week after using the same dosages. It typically isn't advised that 5-HTP be taken on a daily basis for very extended periods of time, so utilize it for pre/post-loading. As for St. Johns Wort, I've heard extremely varied reports regarding its use and it is very dependent on your body chemistry. I personally experienced terrible results whereas others swear by it, so test it out and see how it works for you.

In any case, I'm sorry to say that you have most assuredly damaged your brain, even though you may not notice it significantly. There are a few studies where researchers would pump primates with MDMA, and even with 90% serotonin reduction and after obliterating their serotonin systems, the monkeys appeared to function completely normally. However, once they pried into their brains they found absolute destruction of these serotonin systems. MDMA damage is much more insidious and subtle in its damage than nearly any other drug that we have access to, and I assure you, if you were able to take a look at your own brain, you would think differently.

I highly advise you start exercising and eating a very healthy diet. Exercise stimulates a release of BDNF which encourages the growth of new serotonin axons and is used as a form of therapy in almost all types of brain injuries, so this will aide in your recovery tenfold. I can't stress it enough to individuals that DIET AND EXERCISE are the KEYS to enjoying recreational drugs to their fullest. Respect your body, respect the substances, and your brain will respect you.

+1 DiamondSky, thank you for your contribution to this thread. :)

Does Animus Vox or anyone else would know if the following statement happens to be true ? It's about taking L-Tyrosine after MDMA use.

Quote
Main point is that dopamine goes into your seratonin channels when there's no seratonin in them. This is the cause of neurotoxicity. You know how you get skin cancer from the oxidative effect of UV light rays on your skin? Dopamine going into your seratonin channels has an oxidative effect on those channels... hmmmm.
So if you take L-tyr you boost up your dopamine levels... which means more dopamine available to go into your seratonin channels... which means more neurotoxicity.

There is a lot of misinformation regarding l-tyrosine and MDMA use (partially due to methamphetamine users swearing by it as a pre/post-loading supplement and the thought carrying over to MDMA), but the general consensus that yes, l-tyrosine should not be used in conjunction with MDMA. Tyrosine is partially non-enzymatically converted to dopamine, which in turn leads to free radicals and this is a potential cause of neurotoxicity. Here is a study: http://www.jneurosci.org/content/26/1/290.abstract?etoc

Cheers friends, happy holidays, and I hope everyone has a wonderful and safe new year! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 29, 2012, 01:57 am
Can anyone help me with dosing? I got some great stuff from one of the top vendors on the road. Now Im a large male 200+ so the first time I tried it I took 200mg and kinda rolled but not great while my friend had the time of there lives, next time I dosed 340mg and had the time of my life, It was amazing and just right, except I redosed twice :( but hey Im trying to do better from now on. But why does it take me so much while everyone is having an amazing time at 200mg everything has been tested with marquise mecke and simons btw

cheers =)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 29, 2012, 02:05 am
PS do not preload 5htp, that shit is no joke
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 29, 2012, 02:51 am
I duno ifeel like the 5htp might have gave me minor seritone syndrome. I had like weird panic attacks and anxity after that roll which Ive never had before. It was actully pretty scary and Im defintly gonna slow it down from here on out .no more mega dose nights cause i never had those problems b4, but anyways what other drugs do you recomend? Ive tried most but always up to new experiances ;) ps only roll every few months
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 29, 2012, 02:53 am
can someone help me

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=97162.0
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Jopular on December 29, 2012, 02:55 am
XTC fucked my head up real bad and now it is not all me that is here and now.

But it is all good clean fun and nobody ever regrets taking the molly.

I will fuck myself up even more as it is more like I am just fucking someone elses head up now.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Jopular on December 29, 2012, 03:29 am
Aurelius Venport  sound like they took a shit load of drugs. But Aurelius Venport  still sounds very sane and grounded like a real person.

I took some drugs and I enjoyed them. I think I am OK.

But I am not perfect But I was never perfect even before I took XTC.

Even before any drugs I was alot less than perfect.

I did not know about dosages, harm reduction or even what the hell was actually in those tiny little pills they call E.
The vast majority of people don't worry about the harm. They just pop them happy buzzy little pieces of magic and have a damn good time.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: geeza23 on December 29, 2012, 04:09 am
wow some great posts here, cheers guys for the advice and insight!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on December 29, 2012, 04:39 am
Can anyone help me with dosing? I got some great stuff from one of the top vendors on the road. Now Im a large male 200+ so the first time I tried it I took 200mg and kinda rolled but not great while my friend had the time of there lives, next time I dosed 340mg and had the time of my life, It was amazing and just right, except I redosed twice :( but hey Im trying to do better from now on. But why does it take me so much while everyone is having an amazing time at 200mg everything has been tested with marquise mecke and simons btw

cheers =)

So I'm right there with you as a big guy and normally does a bit more than my girlfriend when we roll. There's quite a bit to keep in mind with MDMA though in that the roll can be effected by how much each of you ate, how recently, stomach acid, etc.. Trying to make sure you are both on empty stomachs and maybe dosing with some Tums to even out stomach acids a few minutes before the drop will normally help get you both to the same place. There are lots of dosing guides that talk about 1.5mg/1kg and that might help keep you in the ballpark. I'm 250 and normally roll pretty good off 200mg but I'll often bump another 200mg a few hours in. If for some reason I'm not feeling it like my traveling partner I can always sniff or plug another little top off to get me to the right place.

Most people say MDMA is MDMA but honestly every batch is a little different ride for me. Sometimes I need more with one stash than another. The tests only show if something is in the drug, not what else is in there or in what quantities.

With my girlfriend a good bit lighter than me our doses are still pretty similar in strength. I think I up mine more for the confidence that it'll get me high more than any real requirement for 20-30% more to get high.

Anyway, be careful but a bit more for us big guys doesn't seem to hurt too much. It's normally a good idea to order enough of the same stuff so that you can have a feeling it out night followed by a full on party night. I know for some of the stashes I've pulled from 340mg would be an uncomfortable ride up and with others it would be just right. So checking at lower doses first is never a bad idea.

Good luck!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on December 29, 2012, 07:45 am
Weight plays a huge factor in dosing, as well as natural tolerance due to body chemistry and other variables. As with any substance, you need to find the appropriate dosage that is both right and safe for you. The 1.5mg/Kg guideline is just that, a GUIDELINE, and should be used so you can further determine what your optimum dosage is. For instance, I have found that that 160mg to be the absolute perfect dosage for me. If I were to follow the guideline given my body weight, however, I would be dosing 120mg which ends up being only a moderately intense roll. The key here is to maintain your optimum dosage and not vary it every time you roll. This, in my opinion, is one of the big problems that people experience with tolerance: inconsistencies in dosing. Obviously tolerance is a huge unknown to us at present, but I personally feel this is one of the factors that play a part in it (along with individuals taking it too often) .

The thought that every batch is different drives into the fact that washing your product is very wise as it will allow for the most precise of dosing. If you wash and recrystallize your product thoroughly, there should be very little difference in the dosing between one vendor and the other as you have removed the chemical impurities that would lead into variable dosages. Pure MDMA is pure MDMA is pure MDMA. WASH! YOUR! PRODUCT!

Cheers, my friends. Keep the discussion flowing! I love hearing everyone's questions, thoughts, and additions on the matter. :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: This Is Serious Mum on December 29, 2012, 09:02 am
Have done mdma for over twenty years, I have a couple of tips that I find rather helpful.

Drink water beforehand. ..during....after.
Have 5-HTP. ...afterwards. 300mg....and 100mgs for the next four days.
Sunshine. ....early morning sunshine to recharge.
Ocean...if you live near the sea...jump in..!
Fruit....have lots of fresh fruit the following day....load your body with fruit energy.
Food...fresh, raw...living.
Exercise. ...gym,  walking,  running, swimming.
Thinking....repeat positive thoughts and sayings to yourself.
Moderation. ....once a month..max.

In my experience, the abovementioned are integral in enjoying the benefits of mdma whilst giving your body and mind good harm minimisation principles.

These principles, alone, will bring additional health benefits to you.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: anonemuss2012 on December 30, 2012, 12:18 am
Signing this thread so I don't lose track of it LOL. thanks Animux!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: This Is Serious Mum on December 30, 2012, 01:06 am

Pure MDMA is also very interesting as it can be any number of 'mixtures'....and depending upon the mixture, different potential neurotoxic levels.

There are two geometrically distinct enantiomers of MDMA:

R- Isomer, happens to be weaker and has a more psychedelic/chill out effect and the S+ Isomer, which is far more stimulating. Depending upon the % of each, one could have a more chilled out experience or a more 'speedy' experience.

R-Isomer is, apparently, less nerotoxic than the S+ Isomer.

However the preferred MDMA is Racemic MDMA. Racemic MDMA  is generally a mixture of the two, usually 50/50 and it's this combination that gives MDMA it's magic. It's the synergistic effect of both isomers.

So you could potentially have quite a number of different % combinations of R- and S+ and many different levels of potential neurotoxicity.

In any event, I think it will be sometime until long term documented studies bear light on the matter. But in the meantime play it safe, test your products and maintain a sensible, cautious approach.....and have fun!!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 31, 2012, 03:41 pm
Thank you for all the tips everyone. I really just got into MDMA and like my experiances to be intense compared to what others may injoy. Im well experianced in mushrooms and lsd at heroic doses. So maybe on lower doses of MDMA i just dont feel that high. When I dosed 200mg from UGS I felt it but i was not really rolling that good, like 1 fot in on foot out. I even bumped another 50mg a few hours in somewhat of a let down.  So next time I didnt eat for 7hrs ate 100mg 5htp for 4 days prior and did not take htp for over 24hr before drop time, preloaded with ALA and vitamine C  and parchuted a 340mg bomb and WOW. I felt it coming hard in 15 min!!!! I have to admit the comeup was intense, I got a little worried for a few minutes but just rode the wave and wow was it amazing. Probably the highest Ive ever been in my entire life. Extream love, my body was floating off the ground major eye wiggles double vision and the ability to destroy the dance floor lol, awsome show I was at btw. But i also redosed 100mg cap at +2 and +3 stupid I know but i never wanted that high to end. So anyways next day standard hang over but not to bad. Threw down a couple norco 10's to help as well. more vitamin c and ALA. but something weird happened 3 days later which is why I was worried i might have had minor S>S>.
                       So # days later I had cheast pain and presure in my cheast it was weird. Didnt hurt very bad but something was off, so I went to the dr. right away, they did ekg blood presure etc. and everything was normal they told me to take zantac for heartburn for 3 days and come back if I was stillin pain. Still felt it for 3 days but after the 3rd day it was gone and hasnt came back since. Also one day I was driving on the highway to an apt. and I felt super disy almost like I was going to faint which has never happened before. Then when I would smoke weed it was almosdt like I waS rolling again for a whole week. None of this happens anymore and I feel fine, can smoke etc np, but it has left me a little worried. So I feel 5htp might have something to do with it cause ive consumed this amount before in a well know press verified on pill reports to contain 100mg mdma , tested and consumed 6pills, shit I get outa hand when im flyin high lol. So any thoughts guys? Oh and i have been piped before and it was one of the worst nights of my life FUCK BZP thx guys =)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 31, 2012, 03:42 pm
Oh one more thing have you guys ever seen anything like this??

Got some great molly off the road a few times, small moon rocks of white maybe a little yellow but toatlly white when crushed. Amazing rolls. Anyways my favorite vendor was selling very dark mdma which I read was bad not properly washed etc. So I decided to try a new vendor with great feedback tons of transaction great reviews. His looked to be the same off white ive been getting. Anyways I get the package fast but what i find inside im not to happy with. Everything is already crushed and it is brown/light brown, def not tan but BROWN. It does not have the shimmer or crystaly look my other stuff had when held in the light. It smeels VERY strongly of liquorice where my other stuff was very faint smell. It is also somewhat sticky, sticks to the bag a little more and also if I squeze it together it clups together momentairly. Now here is the kicker, i did marquise mecke and simons test and it passed with flying colors, very fast and strong reaction mdma positive. And alot of other people gave this product great reviews saying it was flame. Im big on harm reduction and have been piped in the past horrible time and actully thats how i found this site ;) So what does everyone think? Throw it out and get new stuff only a g not much of a loss, try acatone wash? Never done before but think I can after reading about it. Leave as is and try a small test dose 1st, thx for your help everyone
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: paxous on December 31, 2012, 05:00 pm
From what I've read, a re-dose for most people is typically a third of the initial dose, and not half?

http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma.shtml

dose: http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_dose.shtml
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mrmolly1234 on December 31, 2012, 06:10 pm
well thats my whole concer erowid list 200mg as STRONG but for me it feels week and my friends fell like 150-180 is super strong on the same gear. But for me i need around 300mg for 1st dose to get going good. one time i dosed 200mg then 200mg +1 hr and another 100mg +2 same gear and my roll wasnt even half the roll as the 340 bomd i peaked in waves for like 6hours straight. But I do look back and say maybe that was too much I might dose 280mg for next bomb, any ideas oh and I wait aT LEAST 1 month each roll pre and post load vit c and ala, but i duno about 5htp i might not mess with that anymore, there is tons of good foods you can eat which are 5htp rich and natural. Maybe horrible comedown or minor SS but I dont think I will more than 300mg anymore and only 1 redose 1/3 of 1st amount hr later and that it. Or what does everone think og bumping it? I feel like if I take more after my fist dose that it does not have much effect?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Apple on January 01, 2013, 03:53 pm
I'm going to be rolling tonight, but I'm not sure which way to take it to have the best results. I will have a total of 300mg so, should I split it in to 150mg or just take it all in?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on January 01, 2013, 05:07 pm
Take 150mg followed by a 70mg re-dose, this should last you for a 4/5 maybe even 6 hour roll.. Save the rest for another time!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Apple on January 01, 2013, 05:28 pm
Take 150mg followed by a 70mg re-dose, this should last you for a 4/5 maybe even 6 hour roll.. Save the rest for another time!

Thanks. Now, which method do you recommend? Parachute or gumming it. I've snorted it before and I hit my peak extremely fast, but the effects went away just as fast, so that's out of the question.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: ralph123 on January 01, 2013, 05:34 pm
I agree with gtgeorge do some kandy flipping if you can. MDMA is great when taken with MDA and I mean in small doses. I like to start out with 200mg of straight mdma but if i got 50mg mda and 100 mg mdma then those two taken at the same time will be stronger and last a lot longer then just plain old 200mg mdma or even 250mg mdma I'm telling you the mda added to the mdma is awesome and brought back the magic for me.

I can see where my tolerance has already went from starting with 100mg orally to having to have 250 mg orally and that's even waiting for 2 weeks in between rolls. Yea I am going to invest in some mdma and mda to make them each last longer. There's no cross tolerance between mdma an mda so you can possibly take one in one night then trip or roll from the other in a consecutive nights!!

What I like to do if I have 2 or more days off to roll is take a big dose of mdma say 250mg and roll pretty good from that or at least i would then the next night you can take 100mg or 50mg mda+200mg MDMA. You should see very limited amount o tolerance from that such mix on the second day but the third day you would have a tolerance built up to both compounds but not as much from the mda so you could take like 150mg mda+150 or 200mg MDMA.

You just have to play with it and see how your body reacts to what you ingest and go from there. Be careful tho if your are going to be your own lab rat. Trust me I know lol.

Sorry to but into this conversation but I am unusually talkative at this time. I would suggest you just eat your MDMA just swallow it with a soda or whatever you like to drink and don't forget to keep those fluids going you need to be sure and drink plenty of fluids on these compounds and pay real close attention to your body for signs of exhaustion or other signs from your body that may be meant is a warning for you to do something like drink something or whatever just be safe.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Apple on January 01, 2013, 05:49 pm
I agree with gtgeorge do some kandy flipping if you can. MDMA is great when taken with MDA and I mean in small doses. I like to start out with 200mg of straight mdma but if i got 50mg mda and 100 mg mdma then those two taken at the same time will be stronger and last a lot longer then just plain old 200mg mdma or even 250mg mdma I'm telling you the mda added to the mdma is awesome and brought back the magic for me.

I can see where my tolerance has already went from starting with 100mg orally to having to have 250 mg orally and that's even waiting for 2 weeks in between rolls. Yea I am going to invest in some mdma and mda to make them each last longer. There's no cross tolerance between mdma an mda so you can possibly take one in one night then trip or roll from the other in a consecutive nights!!

What I like to do if I have 2 or more days off to roll is take a big dose of mdma say 250mg and roll pretty good from that or at least i would then the next night you can take 100mg or 50mg mda+200mg MDMA. You should see very limited amount o tolerance from that such mix on the second day but the third day you would have a tolerance built up to both compounds but not as much from the mda so you could take like 150mg mda+150 or 200mg MDMA.

You just have to play with it and see how your body reacts to what you ingest and go from there. Be careful tho if your are going to be your own lab rat. Trust me I know lol.

Sorry to but into this conversation but I am unusually talkative at this time. I would suggest you just eat your MDMA just swallow it with a soda or whatever you like to drink and don't forget to keep those fluids going you need to be sure and drink plenty of fluids on these compounds and pay real close attention to your body for signs of exhaustion or other signs from your body that may be meant is a warning for you to do something like drink something or whatever just be safe.

Thanks for the advice dude. I've never had MDA before and idk if I wanna mix it with MDMA, lol. Especially, since I haven't rolled since August. My tolorence is pretty low right now ;D. As of right now, I'm thinking of parachuting 150mg and gumming most of the leftovers at the concert.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: ralph123 on January 01, 2013, 07:54 pm
Good Deal Man! yea it's always good to know thy self and by that i mean to know where your limits are at and what your tolerances are with certain drugs. I guess I got carried away with all that rambling on hahaha.

I've only done MDA once and that was with 100mg of mdma in a capsule with 50mg mda. Yea it was better than 250 mg of straight mdma. That one vendor has those mixed capsules for sale for not very long tho he's about to sell out. The only other place to get mda is from the ilf and you have to buy at least a gram to get it domestically. Have you ever tried just MDA?

I think it's like a precursor to MDMA there's only one more step to turn it into MDMA
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Jopular on January 01, 2013, 08:37 pm
Man, I rolled with the molly last night and I had 2X 125mg hits spaced out about 2.25 hours of each other.

I only had some broken sleep for an hour or two and now the colors on my curtain don't seem quite right. That wood drawers over there is also glistening a disturbing shade of gold and everything I do seems to take ages. Or I end up standing staring into space instead of doing what I need to do.

I hope that tomorrow brings me a good head for my shoulders, a good brain for my head and the right side of the bed to get out of.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Theaides on January 02, 2013, 12:45 am
This is a nice informative post, but I think the "dangers" of neurotoxicity in MDMA are highly overblown.  As a somewhat long term frequent user and having been around lots of other "frequent" users (easily more than once a month), there doesn't appear to be any serious repercussions from having a little fun with it.  Of course, we're talking people who don't go overboard with it (under 300mg in any one night), and usually only use once on random weekends.

I still think there should be some caution when using MDMA and especially if you want to do it within 1-2 weeks of each other, but honestly after years of rolls and friends who've rolled for stretches of back-to-back weekends over the course of a month here and there it really doesn't appear to have that dramatic of an effect on our every day lives.  Other than the suicide tuesday depression that is.  We all are holding steady, good jobs, too if that means anything to this counter argument.

This is also all assuming you're rolling on particularly well made MD too, all the molly i've found on the road since I started shopping here has been exceptional, so I'd have even less fear of the side effects knowing its clean gear.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on January 02, 2013, 01:26 am
Take 150mg followed by a 70mg re-dose, this should last you for a 4/5 maybe even 6 hour roll.. Save the rest for another time!

Thanks. Now, which method do you recommend? Parachute or gumming it. I've snorted it before and I hit my peak extremely fast, but the effects went away just as fast, so that's out of the question.

Parachute it, its my preferred method anyway; wrap that magic up in rizla and take like a tablet. :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on January 02, 2013, 04:03 am
I agree with gtgeorge do some kandy flipping if you can. MDMA is great when taken with MDA and I mean in small doses. I like to start out with 200mg of straight mdma but if i got 50mg mda and 100 mg mdma then those two taken at the same time will be stronger and last a lot longer then just plain old 200mg mdma or even 250mg mdma I'm telling you the mda added to the mdma is awesome and brought back the magic for me.

I can see where my tolerance has already went from starting with 100mg orally to having to have 250 mg orally and that's even waiting for 2 weeks in between rolls. Yea I am going to invest in some mdma and mda to make them each last longer. There's no cross tolerance between mdma an mda so you can possibly take one in one night then trip or roll from the other in a consecutive nights!!

What I like to do if I have 2 or more days off to roll is take a big dose of mdma say 250mg and roll pretty good from that or at least i would then the next night you can take 100mg or 50mg mda+200mg MDMA. You should see very limited amount o tolerance from that such mix on the second day but the third day you would have a tolerance built up to both compounds but not as much from the mda so you could take like 150mg mda+150 or 200mg MDMA.

You just have to play with it and see how your body reacts to what you ingest and go from there. Be careful tho if your are going to be your own lab rat. Trust me I know lol.

Sorry to but into this conversation but I am unusually talkative at this time. I would suggest you just eat your MDMA just swallow it with a soda or whatever you like to drink and don't forget to keep those fluids going you need to be sure and drink plenty of fluids on these compounds and pay real close attention to your body for signs of exhaustion or other signs from your body that may be meant is a warning for you to do something like drink something or whatever just be safe.

This "advice" completely contradicts everything we have established in this thread, ralph123, and also has a lot of false information. You are not treating MDMA or MDA with respect and are rolling far too often, my friend. Your statements that MDMA and MDA do not exhibit a cross tolerance are completely false as they have an affinity for the same receptors, and MDA has been said to be even more neurotoxic than MDMA. You are also completely missing the point regarding MDMA tolerance: you are depleted of the natural chemicals that produce a proper roll, and by ingesting more MDMA/MDA you are only prolonging the restoration process, and this is largely the cause for the tolerance you experience. Boosting your dosage the following days is very ill advised, and continual usage in such a manner will severely damage your brain. Please, stop spreading misinformation based on your particular experiences that contradict well established medical literature.

Jopular, please completely read the first post of this thread and follow gtgeorgz advice regarding dosage.

This is a nice informative post, but I think the "dangers" of neurotoxicity in MDMA are highly overblown.  As a somewhat long term frequent user and having been around lots of other "frequent" users (easily more than once a month), there doesn't appear to be any serious repercussions from having a little fun with it.  Of course, we're talking people who don't go overboard with it (under 300mg in any one night), and usually only use once on random weekends.

I still think there should be some caution when using MDMA and especially if you want to do it within 1-2 weeks of each other, but honestly after years of rolls and friends who've rolled for stretches of back-to-back weekends over the course of a month here and there it really doesn't appear to have that dramatic of an effect on our every day lives.  Other than the suicide tuesday depression that is.  We all are holding steady, good jobs, too if that means anything to this counter argument.

This is also all assuming you're rolling on particularly well made MD too, all the molly i've found on the road since I started shopping here has been exceptional, so I'd have even less fear of the side effects knowing its clean gear.

I don't believe the dangers are overblown and caution needs to be taken when taking ANY recreational drug, especially when there are a lot of unknowns regarding the substance. Everyone's experiences obviously vary, but the simple fact is that MDMA is neurotoxic and it needs to be used responsibly. Long-term effects (speaking 40-50 years from now) are still completely unknown, and just because you do not exhibit any negative effects does not mean you aren't damaging your brain. As I stated previously in the thread, there are a few studies where researchers would pump primates with MDMA, and even with 90% serotonin reduction and after obliterating their serotonin systems, the monkeys appeared to function completely normally. However, once they pried into their brains they found absolute destruction of these serotonin systems. MDMA damage is much more insidious and subtle in its damage than nearly any other drug that we have access to, and I assure you, if you were able to take a look at your own brain, you would think differently.

I am in a position in life that offers me with access to a great deal of research regarding substances and I have taken a great interest in MDMA and wish to share the wealth of information I have acquired over the years. All these statements I back are not simple hearsay and are well established within the medical community, and for anyone that values their cognitive health, much attention should be paid. At the end of the day, however, it's obviously up to the end user's discretion. The only thing I can do is pass along information. It's how well you utilize this information that matters.

Cheers and safe travels, my friends.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Theaides on January 02, 2013, 05:00 am
I am in a position in life that offers me with access to a great deal of research regarding substances and I have taken a great interest in MDMA and wish to share the wealth of information I have acquired over the years. All these statements I back are not simple hearsay and are well established within the medical community, and for anyone that values their cognitive health, much attention should be paid. At the end of the day, however, it's obviously up to the end user's discretion. The only thing I can do is pass along information. It's how well you utilize this information that matters.

Cheers and safe travels, my friends.

I don't downplay the known information but its not very well researched as it could be.  It's not like prescription medications they can test thoroughly and observe concrete results.  Thing is it's not just me but people I've met don't even know what neurotoxicity is, they seem to be pretty functional and have abused MDMA way more than me or my friends would be comfortable with.  That's not to say it's not risky, no doubt.

There's good facts within all the research but I still feel that there isn't enough evidence supporting that doing MDMA any more than once every 6 months under the full moon of the winter solstice is going to irreversibly fuck you up. 

Either way I'm not trying to start an argument.  I know a handful of people who did it way more than is healthy and its definitely fucked them up bad, but I also know long term users who are in tip top shape mentally.  I tell people with MD to be particularly cautious but not scared shitless of it.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on January 02, 2013, 05:31 am
No argument to be had, friend, just a civil discussion! :)

I agree with you that there is still MUCH research to be had and I cannot wait until the day we can research these recreational drugs more thoroughly, but in the time being, I will continue following these guidelines and will advise others to do the same! Also, there's certainly many variables that are still unknown and there are definitely individuals that seem to exhibit negative effects much more than others. Some people may very well be resistant to MDMA's neurotoxic effects while other individuals very sensitive. It's one of those things that will hopefully be one day well established.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Theaides on January 04, 2013, 02:23 am
MOST of the time my group takes decent breaks, but usually around mid-end of the year is when all the best parties and festivals start revving up and there might be a month or two we roll every weekend, then take a break, but on average we roll maybe once a month or so and never exceed 300mg in any one night.

In 4 years of this I can tell ya tolerance has never gotten so high that we needed more.  I've been doing 150-200mg+50mg bumps every time i've rolled over the course of that time and it hasn't ever been disappointing (some rolls better than others sure), but no loss of magic.

Maybe all 5 of us are just blessed with the right genetics?  I don't know, but I guess by most "raver" standards we are pretty light users.  Though this thread would imply we were abusing it heavily.  The worst that happens on the 2 month weekly benders (once a week) is that the Tuesday Blues become more and more pronounced, so while we USED to do these long benders, we've started just using other drugs and giving the rolls a month apart most times, unless there's two absolutely must-roll parties back to back or something.  We're all gradually doing less as time goes on, no real direct reason why or maybe we are just getting bored of the mainstream party scene and all the obnoxious kids they let in.

I'm finding that pre and post roll cocktails haven't really helped with anything as far as recovery goes, I've tried various regimens and really the best thing I can say that helps with MDMA crashes is just spacing the frequency out and keeping your doses reasonable in a single night (<300mg for someone of my size seems to be appropriate, the smallest of our group is usually good on 200mg max). 

There's too many ifs though so don't take my experiences as a green light to do it every week, it does start creeping up on you at that frequency, but a month apart is really more than enough time for recovery.  Everyone's got theories but you'll be able to observe more from just experiencing it.  Do it however you want but pay close attention to your health and how you feel above all other factors.  That doesn't go for just MDMA but all drugs out there.  I've found from continued research into the drugs I like that most of the negative sides of them are highly overexaggerated and usually serve as warnings towards people who abuse drugs heavily.  (Eating a gram of MD in a night?  Taking a quarter gram of meth errday?  These are where most of the consequences start rearing their ugliness).

Either way it's nice that people go out of their way to compile lots of facts and notes and tips, experiences, but as everyone's experiences are subjective they should be taken with at least a half grain of salt.  There's definitely nights i've done too much of a drug and dialed it back after that, one night I think I did about .450 of molly and definitely was not feeling good by the final redose, but curiosity got the best of me.  Had severe depression on the dayafter-after like I'd never had even in 2 years of rolling, too.  Live n' learn. 
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: princeblack49 on January 04, 2013, 05:22 am
In any case, until society wants to pump a live human with recreational dosages of MDMA for a better picture of neurotoxicity, these studies are all we have to go by.

....

MDMA has been established over and over again to be neurotoxic.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What about the claims that MDMA damages the serotonin cells in your brain, causing a brief depression three days later and maybe leading to longer lasting mood problems?

DAVID NUTT : Our study was the first proper study of what happens at day three, what people call the 3-day blues.  We found that three days [after taking MDMA] there was no difference in mood. That suggests that the 3-day blues has more to do with dancing all night and taking other drugs and not getting enough sleep than with the drug itself.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I have taken 90mg doses usually around 9:30pm. No redose with MDMA but instead take 25mg 2CB orally or 12-15mg insulfated at 12 or 1am. Usually I am at home or out to hear a DJ with just light dancing and getting to bed by 3:30 or 4 meditate until i sleep and if I can get 5- 6 hrs or so in I feel awesome the next day. Like an afterglow. If I follow the nutrition regimen I have not noticed a huge difference in my general happiness. Times I skipped the 2CB I think I may have felt more of a comedown.

I will say in a different phase of my life I took all drugs irresponsibly and had dire consequenses. MDMA and coke binges (never together though) gave me some bad depression and physical weakness. I am typically athletic and this alone was a red flag to change. Took a break for three years and no coke still.

I appreciate this info though because I have been doing this routine biweekly and now I will space that out way more.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Aurelius Venport on January 04, 2013, 08:11 am
MOST of the time my group takes decent breaks, but usually around mid-end of the year is when all the best parties and festivals start revving up and there might be a month or two we roll every weekend, then take a break, but on average we roll maybe once a month or so and never exceed 300mg in any one night.

In 4 years of this I can tell ya tolerance has never gotten so high that we needed more.  I've been doing 150-200mg+50mg bumps every time i've rolled over the course of that time and it hasn't ever been disappointing (some rolls better than others sure), but no loss of magic.

Maybe all 5 of us are just blessed with the right genetics?  I don't know, but I guess by most "raver" standards we are pretty light users.  Though this thread would imply we were abusing it heavily.  The worst that happens on the 2 month weekly benders (once a week) is that the Tuesday Blues become more and more pronounced, so while we USED to do these long benders, we've started just using other drugs and giving the rolls a month apart most times, unless there's two absolutely must-roll parties back to back or something.  We're all gradually doing less as time goes on, no real direct reason why or maybe we are just getting bored of the mainstream party scene and all the obnoxious kids they let in.

I'm finding that pre and post roll cocktails haven't really helped with anything as far as recovery goes, I've tried various regimens and really the best thing I can say that helps with MDMA crashes is just spacing the frequency out and keeping your doses reasonable in a single night (<300mg for someone of my size seems to be appropriate, the smallest of our group is usually good on 200mg max). 

There's too many ifs though so don't take my experiences as a green light to do it every week, it does start creeping up on you at that frequency, but a month apart is really more than enough time for recovery.  Everyone's got theories but you'll be able to observe more from just experiencing it.  Do it however you want but pay close attention to your health and how you feel above all other factors.  That doesn't go for just MDMA but all drugs out there.  I've found from continued research into the drugs I like that most of the negative sides of them are highly overexaggerated and usually serve as warnings towards people who abuse drugs heavily.  (Eating a gram of MD in a night?  Taking a quarter gram of meth errday?  These are where most of the consequences start rearing their ugliness).

Either way it's nice that people go out of their way to compile lots of facts and notes and tips, experiences, but as everyone's experiences are subjective they should be taken with at least a half grain of salt.  There's definitely nights i've done too much of a drug and dialed it back after that, one night I think I did about .450 of molly and definitely was not feeling good by the final redose, but curiosity got the best of me.  Had severe depression on the dayafter-after like I'd never had even in 2 years of rolling, too.  Live n' learn.

depression only struck me after hard binging and high doses.

side effects of the drug tend to be minimal as long as you dont od.

i still preach safety and harm reduction nonetheless.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on January 04, 2013, 04:33 pm
Its when I roll more than once every 4 weeks the depression becomes quite bad, I usually take 240/250mg a night. Its only when I've rolled 2 weekends in a row that the depression has become more noticeable, only seems to effect me in the mornings and evenings though for 2/3days after?
I stick to a pre/post loading regime that consists of 5htp (post roll), vitamins and antioxidants as well as a healthy diet as I do believe this helps a lot and helps retain some of the so called 'magic'.
I haven't lost a significant amount magic and the last time i rolled which was spaced out just a week before the last time I dropped was probably the best roll of my life. I think it has a lot to with set and setting. Although the second time I ever dropped MDMA was probably the most powerful roll I've ever had. I do believe there is a sweet spot for MDMA dosage as well; too much and anxiety can start to creep in, too little and there's not much of a roll. Mine is a 160mg starting dose followed by a 70mg redose.
Next time I roll which will be towards the end of this month I'll be doing a combo of 100mg MDMA + 50mg MDA with a redose of 70mg MDMA and possibly a second redose of the same, I will report back about the comedown effects. Last time I rolled was 14th dec so it'll be just over a months break. Interesting to see how MDA will effect the comedown..
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: tablechair215 on January 05, 2013, 01:33 am
Great thread with great info and more people should see this.  As someone with a degree in neuroscience and a few pharmacology courses under my belt, I can concur with AnimusVox on the advice, although these practices would be on the extreme side of caution.  For those who have been using MDMA for many years with no noticeable side-effects, this doesn't necessarily mean that no damage has been done.  If I could slice up your brains and stain for serotonin receptors, we would probably see a depletion as well as damage to serotonergic axon terminals.  While this effect may not be noticeable, it's still there, and continued use would add up until effects are seen. 

Personally, I have "binged" on molly before knowing the consequences although I am not a long-time user.  Now, I spread out rolls at least 2 weeks, usually.  I didn't get a chance to read through all the pages but I also take NAC (N-acetyl-L-cysteine) a few hours prior to rolling (it can be purchased at any vitamin shop).  It is a precursor to glutathione, which is your body's strongest anti-oxidant and has been shown to be depleted after MDMA administration.  Of course, I exercise a lot, which is one of the best ways to upregulate serotonin production.  I also usually take 5-HT after rolling as well. 

Anyways, eat healthy, exercise, and be smart.  I might post a 15 page write-up on MDMA's effects on the body that I did a few years back if I still have it. 

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Foxy on January 05, 2013, 01:43 am
This all makes sense to why I was stuck in bed recovering the whole next day after double dosing on MDA, it 'almost' doesn't seem worth it lol.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: madeofstone2906 on January 06, 2013, 10:19 pm
It's been a while since I've done MD/ecstasy (owing to the fact I was a fucking idiot and went well overboard. The less said about that part of my life the better). Back then my tolerance was through the roof though.

Getting some this week though and probably putting it in a capsule and swallowing it. Was thinking 150mg-200mg, or possibly 150mg with a 50mg dab later in the night. That sound about right to anyone?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on January 08, 2013, 12:00 am
It's been a while since I've done MD/ecstasy (owing to the fact I was a fucking idiot and went well overboard. The less said about that part of my life the better). Back then my tolerance was through the roof though.

Getting some this week though and probably putting it in a capsule and swallowing it. Was thinking 150mg-200mg, or possibly 150mg with a 50mg dab later in the night. That sound about right to anyone?

When my tolerance is low (once a month). My preferred dose is 150mg followed by a 70mg redose an hour into the roll. Its intense (full body euphoria, eye wiggles, gurning etc..) but not so intense I'm floored, prefect dose for me!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: happy_kitten on January 09, 2013, 11:29 am
AnimusVox: What is your opinoion on the following summary - http://thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html?

Someone was asking about injecting MDMA. http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_neurotoxicity1.shtml mention it. It's a rather long article  and the results are quite ambiguous though.

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on January 24, 2013, 10:42 pm
That article is phenomenal in all regards and brings up a tremendous amount of valid points, but I still feel until we can further establish MDMA's neurotoxicity that great caution should be taken. Individuals that dose obscene amounts in one sitting and redose hours after initial ingestion are the ones most prone to MDMA's neurotoxicity, and are ALSO the ones that do not exercise proper harm reduction techniques. These are the individuals that witness the most damage. His conclusion essentially wraps up the entire point of this thread, and that is HARM REDUCTION. The bottom line is everyone needs to research the drugs they ingest and respect them absolutely and completely.

Quote
I absolutely believe that MDMA can be neurotoxic in humans. There's just no reason to believe that it is at a sane dosage/under normal circumstances, and your odds can be greatly improved with a little common sense: Don't mix drugs, be aware of overheating dangers, and take some antioxidants.

On another note, I just read an absolutely phenomenal writeup over on reddit (any DrugNerds subscribers out there?) with the theory that MDA may be the root cause for MDMA's neurotoxicity, which further establishes the idea that MDA is more neurotoxic than MDMA. I've quoted the writeup below, but you can find the CLEARNET link here: http://www.reddit.com/r/DrugNerds/comments/13lp0b/mdma_neurotoxicity_part_1_metabolites/

Quote
This is probably going to be the first in a series of discussions I start about MDMA. There's just too much information for one post. Therefore, I am going to start with one that is very interesting to me: MDMA's metabolites and their role in neurotoxicity. I pre-appologise for the length and terminology used.

First off, let's discuss how MDMA is metabolized. The human cytochrome CYP450 is responsible for the metabolism of MDMA. The primary enzyme responsible is CYP2D6, using O-demethylation. This process adds two hydrogen atoms to the two open oxygen atoms in MDMA to create HHMA. Let's look at the structure for a minute.

MDMA is 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine

HHMA is 3,4-dihydroxy-N-methylamphetamine

So your CYP2D6 enzyme added two hydrogen atoms to the methylenedioxy structure to create a dihydroxy structure. Once it's been o-demethylated to HHMA, it is no longer active like MDMA is. HHMA can then be 0-methylated further to HMMA, or 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy-N-methylamphetamine. Here is an image to help you visualize this process. (http://imgur.com/RY6Mt)

This is the primary route of metabolism.

Is that the end of the story? Nope! Yes MDMA is primarily metabolized by CYP2D6. However, a portion of your dose (~10%) is also metabolized by your CYP3A4 enzyme using N-demethylation. What substance is created by this process? MDA, or 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine. You see, this time your CYP3A4 enzyme changed the methyl group at the N position, and not the O position. This modified the methyl group into an amine group. We are now left with MDMA's more neurotoxic brother in our blood stream.

Let's add this into the picture from above. (http://imgur.com/xTDcQ)

MDA is then metabolized in the exact same manner MDMA was, o-demetylation by CYP2D6. So we add two hydrogen atoms to the O position to create HHA, or 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine. So we essentially end up with HHMA with an amine group at the N position instead of a methyl group. It can also be o-methylated further (like HHMA) into HMA 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine. Same thing as HMMA, just with an amine group instead of the methyl group.

So at this point you might be thinking how this all really matters. Well MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain have been shown (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11351932) to NOT be neurotoxic. Well shit, there we go. Metabolism is to blame.

Not so fast! A study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1908797/pdf/brjpharm00190-0167.pdf) showed that individuals with lower CYP2D6 did not show lower neurotoxicity. In fact, they showed slightly higher. It may have led (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874389/) to some deaths as well. This led to the notion being tabled for a while.

So what is up then? Well where is the next logical place to look? Perhaps CYP3A4!!!!!

A person that has a genetic condition resulting in lower CYP2D6 enzyme is going to have what happen to their MDMA? A greater percentage will be N-demethylated to MDA by CYP3A4.

This is going to lead to what? Higher HHA serum levels.

HHA is what? A potent neurotoxin! (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378)

So MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain show NO neurotoxicity. Individuals with lower CYP2D6 enzyme show higher levels of neurotoxicity. This leads me to believe that HHMA is not the primary culprit (probably still a factor though).

MDA has been shown to be much more neurotoxic than MDMA. MDA is NOT neurotoxic when directly injected into the brain. MDA cannot be metabolized into HHMA, but is directly metabolized to HHA. HHA is a potent neurotoxin.

Is anybody smelling what I am cooking over here?!? MDA is the cause of MDMA's neurotoxicity through metabolism to HHA (Also known as alpha-methyldopamine). BOOM!

Alpha-methyldopamine causes neurotoxicity. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9128836)

Another link (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378)

And another! (http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/37/7/1448.full.pdf)

Now I have been taking quercetin and grapefruit juice with my MDMA for a while now. These substances are CYP3A4 inhibitors. I knew that CYP3A4 metabolized part of my dose to MDA. I knew it was more neurotoxic, which is why I did this. However, I did not connect the dots as to why it was more neurotoxic.

Many postulated it was because of MDA's higher affinity for dopamine. However, why then did direct injections of it in the brain not cause neurotoxicity? If it was dopamine being re-uptaked by your SERT that was causing the damage, it would still be present when MDMA or MDA was directly injected into the brain. In fact, it would be higher. Yet we saw NO neurotoxicity.

Others were skeptical because the metabolism to HHA was only seen in rats. However, the 2009 study proved it happened in humans too! So hot damn, I am pretty sure this is a verifiable theory here. We definitely need studies to prove it though.

TL;DR I postulate that MDMA induced 5-HT neurotoxicity arises from the metabolism to MDA, consequently creating HHA or alpha-methyldopamine. Another route of neurotoxicy comes from the ring-hydroxylation of MDA to THA, or 2,4,5-trihydroxyamphetamine. Inhibit CYP3A4 using grapefruit juice to stop the metabolism to MDA and prevent both metabolites from being created.

Now do NOT take what I am saying as the end all and be all of potential MDMA induced damage. There is excitotoxicity at your ion channels, as well as other oxidative damage that can come into play. I will speak to these in other posts. This has also not been proven yet. So please take this post as a starting point, not a final answer. Feel free to pick apart my theory and find anything that I may have overlooked. I would rather be wrong and find the truth, then think I'm right and perpetuate a fallacy.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on January 25, 2013, 12:25 am
@AnimusVox
Tomorrow night I will be ingesting both MDMA & MDA in combination and my pre-load consists of large quantities of ALA, Vit. C and Vit. E. My post load is the same but with added 5htp.
I'm just wondering do you take MDMA? If so, what is your pre/post load regime you follow? Is there anything more you can recommend I take to help my brain?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on January 25, 2013, 12:56 am
I definitely do, and will actually be candyflipping next weekend with a group of friends! :) My personal pre-load /post-load regimen is as follows:

Alpha Lipoic Acid: 200mg 1 hour prior, then every two hours in
Co-Q10: 100mg 1 hour prior
Magnesium glycinate: 2000mg (200mg elemental mg) 6 hours prior, 1 hour prior, and 3 hours in
Vitamin C: 1000mg 1 hour prior, 3 hours in
Vitamin E: 100mg 1 hour prior

Once I am done rolling (T+7:00 typically), I will fix myself a bowl of tomato basil soup and saltine crackers to go along with my post-load regimen, which is as follows:

Full cycle of Orange Triad Multivitamin (6 pills)
200mg 5-HTP, as well as the week after

In all honesty, don't ingest LARGE amounts of these supplements. The recommended dosages are typically spot on and should be advised. The key thing is timing, in my opinion. I will also note that I take a nootropic stack of piracetam and choline that I take every day (2400mg/600mg morning, 1600mg/600mg afternoon), and I have found that this greatly potentiates MDMA and smooths the roll out as well. It also works wonders with LSD and other psychedelics, too. Cheers!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: bestalignment on January 25, 2013, 05:08 pm
doctor OZ(TV doctor) bites his vitamins in half and takes half in the morning half at night for better absorption.
(If you read the dea.org then you'll know what I know)I think that MDMA isn't really neurotoxic by definition but just about everything is somewhat neurotoxic SO YOUR FEARMOGERING SUCKS. As far as I know the only way to kill brain cells (basicaly) with MDMA is if you get a temperature.If you have a temperature then MDMA will do what amoral people say and turn your brain into Swiss cheese as well as hurting possibly destroying organs. As for brain chemistry getting out of wack theirs no permanent damage.

From " http://thedea.org/hangover.html " Human research suggests that it takes about a month for your brain to fully return to the state it was in before taking MDMA. Give it a month between uses and you should keep feeling fine (for some people, even once a month is too often in the long run.) If you push it, however, (such as weekly use) the severity and length of the 'hangover' period can grow much worse as the regular disruptions of your brain's serotonin system add up. That's not to say weekly use will cause medical harm, but you may find yourself feeling like crap much of the time. The reason is that, besides temporarily depleting serotonin reserves, your brain 'adjusts the volume' on the serotonin system in response to the massive serotonin release caused by MDMA. With very heavy use (several times a week) users can become quite dysfunctional (panic attacks, major memory/concentration problems, in some cases amphetamine psychosis has been reported.)

     Responsible drug use means moderation. MDMA can be a very seductive drug, making it hard for some people to resist the urge to run out and repeat the experience as soon and as often as possible, but if you go overboard, regardless of the drug used, you will pay a price for it. The poet Blake said that the path of excess leads to the palace of wisdom. That's true, but when you drag your tired, fried, hung-over ass up to the gates of that palace you realize that wisdom was moderation in the first place. Been there, done that.

 If you overindulge, you will recover (it's a mistake to assume that these somewhat long-term disruptions are signs of brain damage) but it's no fun in the meanwhile. Some people just have to learn this lesson for themselves, but take it from the many thousands of users who have taken this road before: It isn't worth it. Once a month is fine. You might get away with twice a month for a while. But very few people seem to be able to get away with weekly use for long. Be sensitive to your own mental state, and if you start to feel a little emotionally unstable or more tired/forgetful than usual, take a break for several months. Your brain will thank you.
 
(From me)One of your references for the article possible health risks of MDMA and methamphetamine was Ricard who's a frad and if thats where your getting your info then its wrong I read some of it and couldn't even understand it all it was very technical. http://www.thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html is my main source of info http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_media1.shtml next and to cut this shorter MDMA has been found to be less harmful for the user and far less harmful for society then alcohol from http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dancing-with-molly-20121203-2ar04.html  .
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on January 25, 2013, 06:25 pm
doctor OZ(TV doctor) bites his vitamins in half and takes half in the morning half at night for better absorption. I think that MDMA isn't really neurotoxic by definition but just about everything is somewhat neurotoxic SO YOUR FEARMOGERING SUCKS. As far as I know the only way to kill brain cells (basicaly) with MDMA is if you get a temperature or have one that goes for high doses and with animals even injecting into the bloodstream.If you have a temperature then MDMA will do what amoral people say and turn your brain into Swiss cheese as well as hurting possibly destroying organs depending on I think mostly your temperature not the dose of MDMA idk. One of your references for an article you mentioned was Ricard who's a frad and if thats where your getting your info then its wrong I read some of it and couldn't even understand it all I read was very technical I forget the name exactly it was like the possible health risks of MDMA and methamphetamine. http://www.thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html is my main source of info http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_media1.shtml next and to cut this shorter MDMA has been found to be less harmful for the user and far less harmful for society then alcohol from http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dancing-with-molly-20121203-2ar04.html.

I get your points but I think there is reasonable evidence to assume that large amounts of MDMA over time can effect some people negatively. The real trick is that I know hardly anyone who ONLY does MDMA and most the "studies" are made up of similarly unknown drug combinations within people or just with those poor overdosed lab rats. So saying MDMA is dangerous is a little over generalized in my mind simply because we can't do any real tests on live people to confirm one way or another how any potential damage is done specifically by the drug and specifically in humans and at what specific dosing curves.

The more obvious reason for most people to limit their MDMA use is that it really is a magical drug that in the right hands and that magic seems to diminish over time with too much abuse. I do sort of agree that based on what I have seen through my little life, alcohol, tobacco and processed foods are more destructive to a larger portion of the population as a whole than dropping a few hits of MDMA every month or two. For me, if the cost of admission to the wonderland that is an MDMA high turns out to be a little brain damage I'm okay with that risk.

Personally I would just love for the drug to be legalized so that real research can be brought forth to find out what damage really is possible and what ways their are to mitigate it. Honestly I think it's one of the biggest crimes in the war on drugs that we all have to jump into this with little to no real information about how it will affect us in the long term when in truth there are probably some simple steps we could all take to make this drug as safe as dropping an aspirin if only we knew more about it.


Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: RaFaeL5 on January 25, 2013, 06:45 pm
damn intersting post...
but I personaly don't prep and post...
I think the "down" part of it (physical and mental) is just as well a part of the experience,
also it's a good reminder of why "not do it too often"...

but I might give it a try once,
to see how much difference there would be.
Great post for giving me so much inspiration,
THX
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on January 25, 2013, 11:03 pm
doctor OZ(TV doctor) bites his vitamins in half and takes half in the morning half at night for better absorption. I think that MDMA isn't really neurotoxic by definition but just about everything is somewhat neurotoxic SO YOUR FEARMOGERING SUCKS. As far as I know the only way to kill brain cells (basicaly) with MDMA is if you get a temperature or have one that goes for high doses and with animals even injecting into the bloodstream.If you have a temperature then MDMA will do what amoral people say and turn your brain into Swiss cheese as well as hurting possibly destroying organs damage depending on mostly your temperature not the dose of MDMA so long as you had some idk. One of your references for an article you mentioned was Ricard who's a frad and if thats where your getting your info then its wrong I read some of it and couldn't even understand it all I read was very technical I forget the name exactly it was like the possible health risks of MDMA and methamphetamine. http://www.thedea.org/neurotoxicity.html is my main source of info http://www.erowid.org/chemicals/mdma/mdma_media1.shtml next and to cut this shorter MDMA has been found to be less harmful for the user and far less harmful for society then alcohol from http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/dancing-with-molly-20121203-2ar04.html  .

This thread isn't intended to be "fear mongering", it's meant to raise awareness about harm reduction techniques for MDMA use. Even TheDEA's summary that YOU linked surmises that MDMA is neurotoxic when used irresponsibly and at high dosages. Did you even read the the article thoroughly?

Quote
I absolutely believe that MDMA can be neurotoxic in humans. There's just no reason to believe that it is at a sane dosage/under normal circumstances, and your odds can be greatly improved with a little common sense: Don't mix drugs, be aware of overheating dangers, and take some antioxidants.

You also state that you "couldn't even understand it all I read was very technical", so why are you commenting on scientific studies that you admit to not even understanding? I think you are misguided on what my intentions are. I am trying to educate people on how to reduce MDMA's neurotoxic properties. Yes, my advice may be on the extreme side of caution, but until we further understand the neurotoxic effects of MDMA in humans, I am going to spread the information in hopes that people will find it valuable. Obviously you don't find this information valuable, so continue using MDMA however you wish to. After all, at the end of the day it is up to the user's discrection, but I hope that in the future you will come to truly respect the drug. Also, I'm well aware that alcohol is more harmful to you than MDMA, but that does not mean you shouldn't exercise caution when ingesting a recreational drug of ANY type. Good luck to you.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: bestalignment on January 26, 2013, 01:58 am
Whatever you could rename the topic. I edited my earlier post alot so its worth a reread.Ok history lesson the U.S. war on drugs was started by Richard Nixon I'd say to destroy the hippie movements fuel in his mind. Not sure what the current government gains by the war on drugs. leap.cc is an interesting site for people who would like to see legalization and regulation of all drugs.

Im way more interested in the stuff that's with the mdma just from making it how harmful is that stuff if at all with the mdma. Like theirs poisonis ingredients for alot of the ways to make it and all kinds of paint thinner and stuff idk after heating and mixing then getting mostly mdma like 80% by washing with alcohol and letting it evaporate whats in the last 20% can anybody tell me a method of making it and using that method what stuff is in it at the end and how harmful it is(possibly no harm).

If you read the dea.org i don't even remember what the study group from a legitimate study took mayby it was mdma as pure as the average person can make from random street sources mayby it was made legitamatly anyway in that test no permant brain damage.

Look on http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=97162.0 for more details.

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: raynardine on January 26, 2013, 04:24 am
Thank you!

This was very informative, and although my own research rendered much of this post redundant, this all needed to be said, and said again and again!

I even learned some new things, here!

Again, thank you! I really appreciated the time and effort that's evident in this post.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: speedracer on February 08, 2013, 10:29 pm
thank you all for the read, next weekend mdma+mda+ghb. got my vitamins  and everything for the post and pre load. cant wait
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Pillows on February 08, 2013, 11:34 pm
This post was definitely really helpful, needs stickied for sure
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: WickedLover on February 09, 2013, 07:06 am
This is an amazing post. I only roll about 3-4 times a year, and each roll has a 2-3 months break in between. However, I have friends who roll 3-4 times A WEEK, and they’ve been doing this for almost a year now. The last time that I rolled with them was on the NYE. I must have taken at least 600mg of MDMA throughout the night. For the next two weeks afterward, I was depressed and contemplated suicide. That was one of the worst experiences of my life.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: CeIphTitled305 on February 12, 2013, 12:08 am
I was under the impression it shows to be neurotoxic as the internal body temperature rises, i.e. at raves. Is that true? I really only do it at music festivals is why I ask. I space out rolls a MINIMUM of 1 month, with there often being larger gaps between some, is this alright? Since buying product strictly off the SR, I've been taking far, far smaller doses (20mg/kg roughly), which usually ends up at 130mg for me, with a small booster of about 40mg when i hit the peak.

Also, what are people's knowledge about rolling twice in one weekend on smaller doses? I'm going to Coachella this April and would like to be able to roll two days of the three, taking minimal amounts, not doing a half gram or anything ridiculous... If i take only 150mg will I be depleting all of my serotonin reserves, will this render the second roll wasteful? What If i pre/post loaded with vitamins & 5-HTP?

Also on the note of 5-HTP, does it enhance rolls if you take some doses the week leading up to a roll? A friend told me that its really only necessary for afterwords but I could see it proving beneficial a priori. Let me know what insight you have on my situation!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: jackxblack on February 18, 2013, 06:09 am
subbd for later.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: dead salmon on February 19, 2013, 06:26 am
Are there any scientific studies showing the efficacy of pre/post dosing of various vitamans & supplements in reducing neurotoxicity?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: spinbox1 on February 20, 2013, 12:20 am
I haven't read if this has been posted yet, but THC is neuroprotective when Rolling.  Smoke your weed people, it's for your health! :)

Here's an article: 
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20174577
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: RaFaeL5 on February 20, 2013, 10:21 am
check this forum where they say using Viagra helps protecting the brain:

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=121806.0;topicseen
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on February 20, 2013, 10:01 pm
I was under the impression it shows to be neurotoxic as the internal body temperature rises, i.e. at raves. Is that true? I really only do it at music festivals is why I ask. I space out rolls a MINIMUM of 1 month, with there often being larger gaps between some, is this alright? Since buying product strictly off the SR, I've been taking far, far smaller doses (20mg/kg roughly), which usually ends up at 130mg for me, with a small booster of about 40mg when i hit the peak.

Also, what are people's knowledge about rolling twice in one weekend on smaller doses? I'm going to Coachella this April and would like to be able to roll two days of the three, taking minimal amounts, not doing a half gram or anything ridiculous... If i take only 150mg will I be depleting all of my serotonin reserves, will this render the second roll wasteful? What If i pre/post loaded with vitamins & 5-HTP?

Also on the note of 5-HTP, does it enhance rolls if you take some doses the week leading up to a roll? A friend told me that its really only necessary for afterwords but I could see it proving beneficial a priori. Let me know what insight you have on my situation!

A raise in body temperature is definitely one of the prime components to MDMA induced neurotoxicity as oxidative stress rises as your body temperature rises.

Rolling two days in a row is ill advised and you won't normally have as effective of a roll as the first day due to being depleted of serotonin. Since I gather you're going to do this anyway, I would definitely not roll for at least 3 months (preferably more) leading up until Coachella so to allow for optimum restoration and to prepare your brain for what you're about to put it through. You would also need to take a higher dosage on the second day. Personally, I would take another substance on one of the days (LSD or 2C-B would be fantastic) but it's up to you in the end. Just be safe, my friend.

There is some controversy whether or not taking 5-HTP in the week leading up to a roll will potentiate the roll or not, so it's typically up to the end user. If you feel the need to preload with 5-HTP, be sure you stop taking 5-HTP two days PRIOR to rolling in order to avoid the potential for serotonin syndrome. 5-HTP is typically best suited to be taken in the week following your roll at a moderate dose of 100mg.

Are there any scientific studies showing the efficacy of pre/post dosing of various vitamans & supplements in reducing neurotoxicity?

If you read the original post you'll notice links to a few studies at the bottom under "Supplements/SSRIs".
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: HEATFan on February 20, 2013, 11:38 pm
One thing I noticed last time I rolled is that my muscle, mainly my leg muscles like my calves started cramping seriously bad not very long into the roll, maybe an hour or two after popping the pill. Is this only because of dehydration? Or could there be other causes? Any recommendations?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on February 20, 2013, 11:59 pm
One thing I noticed last time I rolled is that my muscle, mainly my leg muscles like my calves started cramping seriously bad not very long into the roll, maybe an hour or two after popping the pill. Is this only because of dehydration? Or could there be other causes? Any recommendations?

Ah, I also noticed this last time I rolled. It was an MDA/MDMA combo though so I thought it could've been something to do with that, but now you've said dehydration that makes more sense.
For me it was painful cramps in my feet and calves whenever I sat down.
Also, does anyone else else get body shakes? Especially when sat down in the legs I get uncontrollable shakes which is pretty weird (especially after higher doses). What are the reasons for this?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on February 21, 2013, 02:26 am
One thing I noticed last time I rolled is that my muscle, mainly my leg muscles like my calves started cramping seriously bad not very long into the roll, maybe an hour or two after popping the pill. Is this only because of dehydration? Or could there be other causes? Any recommendations?

Ah, I also noticed this last time I rolled. It was an MDA/MDMA combo though so I thought it could've been something to do with that, but now you've said dehydration that makes more sense.
For me it was painful cramps in my feet and calves whenever I sat down.
Also, does anyone else else get body shakes? Especially when sat down in the legs I get uncontrollable shakes which is pretty weird (especially after higher doses). What are the reasons for this?

Neither of you are receiving enough magnesium which is causing for fasciculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation#Treatment). Are you sure you have a BIOAVAILABLE magnesium supplement? If you have magnesium oxide then you bought the most ineffective form of magnesium and are essentially taking nothing. Purchase either magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate and increase your dosage by double. You should see these muscle twitches and cramps disappear.

Here's a more thorough explanation:

Quote
MDMA induces a release of extracellular glutamate in the hippocampus. Glutamate is the body's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. It binds to NMDA receptor sites, along with glycine, opening the ion channels and allowing calcium to enter the neuron. This is how the brain sends cascading electrical signals. When the ion channels open for too long or too frequently, calcium concentrations can become too high in the neuron. This can lower the effectiveness of your ion channels, or can even cause neuronal death. Magnesium is the substance your body uses to block the channel in a voltage-dependent manner. This means that the ion channel will not allow Ca2+ to pass, even if glutamate and glycine are bound to their receptor sites. However, once the neuronal membrane's electrical potential rises to an excited state, the Mg molecule will clear the channel and allow for normal operation. Most people are deficient in magnesium as it is. Supplementing a highly bioavailable magnesium supplement will give your body the substance it needs to naturally protect itself from excitotoxicity.  There are a number of different types of magnesium supplements. Some are not absorbed very well, other are. The most common form, oxide, is one of the worst. This is where the concept of chelation comes into play. Magnesium is a substance the readily binds to insoluble salts in the stomach and intestines. This makes it hard to absorb. However, if you chelate the magnesium molecule to a soluble amino acid, it prevents it's binding to insoluble salts, as well as opening up the possibilities for active transport. This means that fully chelated magnesium is absorbed much better by the body. There are a number of different Mg/amino acid combinations. My favorite is magnesium glycinate. This is Mg chelated to a glycine molecule. It can be found cheaply and is highly bioavailable. There is also citrate, L-theonate, oroate, taurate, lysinate, etc. I will let you decide on which one you want to try.

Sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23179355
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044576584710128
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1661812
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: oldtoby on February 21, 2013, 04:48 am
Well, I owe this thread a debt of brain cells. Couldn't be better timing for me. Rolled for the first time less than a week ago, and while I wasn't about to re-dose immediately, I certainly wasn't going to wait a month. In fact, I think I was set to wait a couple of weeks only because I intended to candyflip and am waiting out my psych tolerance/refractory period. I might very well have changed my mind and rolled again this weekend.

And having learned of these issues mere days after my first time? You can imagine how disappointed I am. Grateful, but terribly disappointed.

Another rare treat. It seems all I like are the rare treats. *sigh*  :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: HEATFan on February 21, 2013, 11:53 am
One thing I noticed last time I rolled is that my muscle, mainly my leg muscles like my calves started cramping seriously bad not very long into the roll, maybe an hour or two after popping the pill. Is this only because of dehydration? Or could there be other causes? Any recommendations?

Ah, I also noticed this last time I rolled. It was an MDA/MDMA combo though so I thought it could've been something to do with that, but now you've said dehydration that makes more sense.
For me it was painful cramps in my feet and calves whenever I sat down.
Also, does anyone else else get body shakes? Especially when sat down in the legs I get uncontrollable shakes which is pretty weird (especially after higher doses). What are the reasons for this?

Neither of you are receiving enough magnesium which is causing for fasciculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation#Treatment). Are you sure you have a BIOAVAILABLE magnesium supplement? If you have magnesium oxide then you bought the most ineffective form of magnesium and are essentially taking nothing. Purchase either magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate and increase your dosage by double. You should see these muscle twitches and cramps disappear.

Here's a more thorough explanation:

Quote
MDMA induces a release of extracellular glutamate in the hippocampus. Glutamate is the body's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. It binds to NMDA receptor sites, along with glycine, opening the ion channels and allowing calcium to enter the neuron. This is how the brain sends cascading electrical signals. When the ion channels open for too long or too frequently, calcium concentrations can become too high in the neuron. This can lower the effectiveness of your ion channels, or can even cause neuronal death. Magnesium is the substance your body uses to block the channel in a voltage-dependent manner. This means that the ion channel will not allow Ca2+ to pass, even if glutamate and glycine are bound to their receptor sites. However, once the neuronal membrane's electrical potential rises to an excited state, the Mg molecule will clear the channel and allow for normal operation. Most people are deficient in magnesium as it is. Supplementing a highly bioavailable magnesium supplement will give your body the substance it needs to naturally protect itself from excitotoxicity.  There are a number of different types of magnesium supplements. Some are not absorbed very well, other are. The most common form, oxide, is one of the worst. This is where the concept of chelation comes into play. Magnesium is a substance the readily binds to insoluble salts in the stomach and intestines. This makes it hard to absorb. However, if you chelate the magnesium molecule to a soluble amino acid, it prevents it's binding to insoluble salts, as well as opening up the possibilities for active transport. This means that fully chelated magnesium is absorbed much better by the body. There are a number of different Mg/amino acid combinations. My favorite is magnesium glycinate. This is Mg chelated to a glycine molecule. It can be found cheaply and is highly bioavailable. There is also citrate, L-theonate, oroate, taurate, lysinate, etc. I will let you decide on which one you want to try.

Sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23179355
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044576584710128
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1661812

Thanks so much for your help. It may have already been covered, but could I ask you what your profession is? Are you in the medical industry by chance? Thanks again.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: White 0ut on February 21, 2013, 12:06 pm
Loving this thread! I don't feel like nearly enough new users are educated enough!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on February 21, 2013, 02:33 pm
Neither of you are receiving enough magnesium which is causing for fasciculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation#Treatment). Are you sure you have a BIOAVAILABLE magnesium supplement? If you have magnesium oxide then you bought the most ineffective form of magnesium and are essentially taking nothing. Purchase either magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate and increase your dosage by double. You should see these muscle twitches and cramps disappear.

Here's a more thorough explanation:

Quote
MDMA induces a release of extracellular glutamate in the hippocampus. Glutamate is the body's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. It binds to NMDA receptor sites, along with glycine, opening the ion channels and allowing calcium to enter the neuron. This is how the brain sends cascading electrical signals. When the ion channels open for too long or too frequently, calcium concentrations can become too high in the neuron. This can lower the effectiveness of your ion channels, or can even cause neuronal death. Magnesium is the substance your body uses to block the channel in a voltage-dependent manner. This means that the ion channel will not allow Ca2+ to pass, even if glutamate and glycine are bound to their receptor sites. However, once the neuronal membrane's electrical potential rises to an excited state, the Mg molecule will clear the channel and allow for normal operation. Most people are deficient in magnesium as it is. Supplementing a highly bioavailable magnesium supplement will give your body the substance it needs to naturally protect itself from excitotoxicity.  There are a number of different types of magnesium supplements. Some are not absorbed very well, other are. The most common form, oxide, is one of the worst. This is where the concept of chelation comes into play. Magnesium is a substance the readily binds to insoluble salts in the stomach and intestines. This makes it hard to absorb. However, if you chelate the magnesium molecule to a soluble amino acid, it prevents it's binding to insoluble salts, as well as opening up the possibilities for active transport. This means that fully chelated magnesium is absorbed much better by the body. There are a number of different Mg/amino acid combinations. My favorite is magnesium glycinate. This is Mg chelated to a glycine molecule. It can be found cheaply and is highly bioavailable. There is also citrate, L-theonate, oroate, taurate, lysinate, etc. I will let you decide on which one you want to try.

Sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23179355
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044576584710128
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1661812

Ah okay, thanks for the help! Have a +1 for that. Yes I am using a supplement with Mg oxide, Mg stearate and  Mg gluconate in it and I'm pretty sure the last time I rolled when I got these cramps I didn't take this supplement. Will be sure to use it next time :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on February 25, 2013, 05:41 am
One thing I noticed last time I rolled is that my muscle, mainly my leg muscles like my calves started cramping seriously bad not very long into the roll, maybe an hour or two after popping the pill. Is this only because of dehydration? Or could there be other causes? Any recommendations?

Ah, I also noticed this last time I rolled. It was an MDA/MDMA combo though so I thought it could've been something to do with that, but now you've said dehydration that makes more sense.
For me it was painful cramps in my feet and calves whenever I sat down.
Also, does anyone else else get body shakes? Especially when sat down in the legs I get uncontrollable shakes which is pretty weird (especially after higher doses). What are the reasons for this?

Neither of you are receiving enough magnesium which is causing for fasciculation (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fasciculation#Treatment). Are you sure you have a BIOAVAILABLE magnesium supplement? If you have magnesium oxide then you bought the most ineffective form of magnesium and are essentially taking nothing. Purchase either magnesium glycinate or magnesium citrate and increase your dosage by double. You should see these muscle twitches and cramps disappear.

Here's a more thorough explanation:

Quote
MDMA induces a release of extracellular glutamate in the hippocampus. Glutamate is the body's primary excitatory neurotransmitter. It binds to NMDA receptor sites, along with glycine, opening the ion channels and allowing calcium to enter the neuron. This is how the brain sends cascading electrical signals. When the ion channels open for too long or too frequently, calcium concentrations can become too high in the neuron. This can lower the effectiveness of your ion channels, or can even cause neuronal death. Magnesium is the substance your body uses to block the channel in a voltage-dependent manner. This means that the ion channel will not allow Ca2+ to pass, even if glutamate and glycine are bound to their receptor sites. However, once the neuronal membrane's electrical potential rises to an excited state, the Mg molecule will clear the channel and allow for normal operation. Most people are deficient in magnesium as it is. Supplementing a highly bioavailable magnesium supplement will give your body the substance it needs to naturally protect itself from excitotoxicity.  There are a number of different types of magnesium supplements. Some are not absorbed very well, other are. The most common form, oxide, is one of the worst. This is where the concept of chelation comes into play. Magnesium is a substance the readily binds to insoluble salts in the stomach and intestines. This makes it hard to absorb. However, if you chelate the magnesium molecule to a soluble amino acid, it prevents it's binding to insoluble salts, as well as opening up the possibilities for active transport. This means that fully chelated magnesium is absorbed much better by the body. There are a number of different Mg/amino acid combinations. My favorite is magnesium glycinate. This is Mg chelated to a glycine molecule. It can be found cheaply and is highly bioavailable. There is also citrate, L-theonate, oroate, taurate, lysinate, etc. I will let you decide on which one you want to try.

Sources:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23179355
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1044576584710128
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1661812

Thanks so much for your help. It may have already been covered, but could I ask you what your profession is? Are you in the medical industry by chance? Thanks again.

I'm glad I could help! Also, anonymity is a valuable thing. ;)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: dead salmon on February 26, 2013, 05:07 am
I was under the impression it shows to be neurotoxic as the internal body temperature rises, i.e. at raves. Is that true? I really only do it at music festivals is why I ask. I space out rolls a MINIMUM of 1 month, with there often being larger gaps between some, is this alright? Since buying product strictly off the SR, I've been taking far, far smaller doses (20mg/kg roughly), which usually ends up at 130mg for me, with a small booster of about 40mg when i hit the peak.

Also, what are people's knowledge about rolling twice in one weekend on smaller doses? I'm going to Coachella this April and would like to be able to roll two days of the three, taking minimal amounts, not doing a half gram or anything ridiculous... If i take only 150mg will I be depleting all of my serotonin reserves, will this render the second roll wasteful? What If i pre/post loaded with vitamins & 5-HTP?

Also on the note of 5-HTP, does it enhance rolls if you take some doses the week leading up to a roll? A friend told me that its really only necessary for afterwords but I could see it proving beneficial a priori. Let me know what insight you have on my situation!

A raise in body temperature is definitely one of the prime components to MDMA induced neurotoxicity as oxidative stress rises as your body temperature rises.

Rolling two days in a row is ill advised and you won't normally have as effective of a roll as the first day due to being depleted of serotonin. Since I gather you're going to do this anyway, I would definitely not roll for at least 3 months (preferably more) leading up until Coachella so to allow for optimum restoration and to prepare your brain for what you're about to put it through. You would also need to take a higher dosage on the second day. Personally, I would take another substance on one of the days (LSD or 2C-B would be fantastic) but it's up to you in the end. Just be safe, my friend.

There is some controversy whether or not taking 5-HTP in the week leading up to a roll will potentiate the roll or not, so it's typically up to the end user. If you feel the need to preload with 5-HTP, be sure you stop taking 5-HTP two days PRIOR to rolling in order to avoid the potential for serotonin syndrome. 5-HTP is typically best suited to be taken in the week following your roll at a moderate dose of 100mg.

Are there any scientific studies showing the efficacy of pre/post dosing of various vitamans & supplements in reducing neurotoxicity?

If you read the original post you'll notice links to a few studies at the bottom under "Supplements/SSRIs".

Didn't see that, oops.  Well guess I'll have to start pre/post loading with some of these things now that there's some studies backing it up.  Thanks OP and all, this thread is WIN.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: HEATFan on March 13, 2013, 02:27 pm
Today I purchased Vitamin C and E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid and lastly, Magnesium Citrate.

Should I start taking the daily recommended dosages of these starting today up until 1 hour prior to my roll on Friday?

And then, 6 hours after my roll, I will start taking 5-HTP, correct?

I just want to make sure I'm educating myself and my friends properly before this big weekend! Thanks again for your excellent help! +1'd again
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: White 0ut on March 13, 2013, 02:48 pm
Today I purchased Vitamin C and E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid and lastly, Magnesium Citrate.

Should I start taking the daily recommended dosages of these starting today up until 1 hour prior to my roll on Friday?

And then, 6 hours after my roll, I will start taking 5-HTP, correct?

I just want to make sure I'm educating myself and my friends properly before this big weekend! Thanks again for your excellent help! +1'd again

I'm in the same roll boat here. About to sample some of Molly Express's 225mg 150--->75mg

Did you get all of these vitamins at wally world?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: HEATFan on March 13, 2013, 03:01 pm
Today I purchased Vitamin C and E, Co-Q10, Alpha Lipoic Acid and lastly, Magnesium Citrate.

Should I start taking the daily recommended dosages of these starting today up until 1 hour prior to my roll on Friday?

And then, 6 hours after my roll, I will start taking 5-HTP, correct?

I just want to make sure I'm educating myself and my friends properly before this big weekend! Thanks again for your excellent help! +1'd again

I'm in the same roll boat here. About to sample some of Molly Express's 225mg 150--->75mg

Did you get all of these vitamins at wally world?

I went to my local GNC which was probably a rip off. I'm sure wal-mart has it all. The only thing I was concerned about was the magnesium citrate not being available there, but it probably is. I just fucking hate wal-mart and only go there when I'm stealing money from them with PurpleLotus's coupons :D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: BadApples on March 14, 2013, 01:41 am
When someone quotes the ideal dose to be 150mg are they talking about 150mg of MDMA alone or MDMA.HCL? Purity levels of course vary by vendor and the last vendor I bought from I measured precisely 150mg and didn't really get the full on experience I was craving. This vendor also had a brilliant reputation.

This is an incredibly insightful thread you guys good work.

Another question I have is how dependent is your roll on psychological factors? For example the mood you're in, the environment you're in, you're expectations of your roll. Have there been any studies exploring this?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on March 14, 2013, 03:16 am
When someone quotes the ideal dose to be 150mg are they talking about 150mg of MDMA alone or MDMA.HCL? Purity levels of course vary by vendor and the last vendor I bought from I measured precisely 150mg and didn't really get the full on experience I was craving. This vendor also had a brilliant reputation.

This is an incredibly insightful thread you guys good work.

Another question I have is how dependent is your roll on psychological factors? For example the mood you're in, the environment you're in, you're expectations of your roll. Have there been any studies exploring this?

They would be talking about MDMA.HCL... so 150mg's of the powder you bought assuming it is mostly clean MDMA. 150mg's is a pretty normal dose for most people but a lot of factors come into play as far as how well it works. If you take any SSRI's you won't feel much at all. If you take it on a full stomach with hard to digest food it might break down and get absorbed so slowly that you never feel it full force. Plus different people will have different reactions to the stuff just based on body chemistry.

I'd give the same dose another go on an empty stomach and maybe take an antiacid before hand since some people claim that helps and I don't see that it could cause much harm. If you're not in a good place in an hour to hour and a half I would bump 50-75 mg more at that point and see where that takes you.

Personally, I just plug the stuff (liquid dilution up the bum) since it doesn't mater what I had to eat and gets more of the stuff into my system. Most people hate the idea (until they try it) but just mentioning it since it works great for me.

I normally like to roll pretty hard and as a bigger guy that means about 200mg for me to get going well. Honestly though if you haven't rolled before and 150mg didn't get you going that's a little odd if something above isn't involved.

And yes, the setting is HUGELY important from my experience. MDMA gives you the opportunity to drop all defenses and share bubbles of happiness with most anyone... but if you are in a place that makes you uncomfortable, around people you don't trust and on a drug you are afraid of you can absolutely dull the experience just by keeping your guard up. I've lost many a roll in my time just because reality stepped in and needed to be dealt with. My best experiences are at home with my girl spending hours being in love. Safe, fun, predictable.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: BadApples on March 15, 2013, 12:06 am
Thanks for the advice DiamondSky. I have rolled a good few times before which is why I was confused as to the lack of effect with which that 150mg had, given that usually that would sort me out nicely.

I do have to wonder if the medication I'm on has an effect on my trip. It's not an SSRI however reported side effects of the drug have been depression.

I've found gumming to be effective in the past but never tried plugging, maybe I'll give it a go.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on March 15, 2013, 12:22 am
Yeah MDMA can be a tricky one to get just right. Normally I like to find a supply I like and get a bunch of it because every batch seems to be a little different. Since it's not legal, we sort of deal with a lot of non-pharmaceutical grade stuff out there which means every batch will be different.

I'd definitely Google the drug to see if there are any interactions. There's so much traffic on Erowid and Bluelight that someone has likely tried to roll on it before.

If you search these forums there's a guide on plugging, I wrote up my step by step a few pages in. Honestly if I'm at home there's no reason not to plug and if I'm out I normally just eat the stuff.

Good luck!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: 4theCause on March 16, 2013, 02:13 am
Does anybody know about the difference in neurotoxicity between MDA and MDMA? I have heard that MDA is less neurotoxic but have found conflicting views all over the web... rolled the last three weeks and am hoping that it wasn't as bad for me as this thread is making it seem :/
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 16, 2013, 02:41 am
Does anybody know about the difference in neurotoxicity between MDA and MDMA? I have heard that MDA is less neurotoxic but have found conflicting views all over the web... rolled the last three weeks and am hoping that it wasn't as bad for me as this thread is making it seem :/

Hi friend, MDA is actually believed to be more neurotoxic as it is a more potent serotonergic drug than MDMA. In fact, MDA metabolites are actually thought to be the reason for MDMA's neurotoxicity in the first place as MDA metabolizes into alpha-methyldopamine, which is a potent neurotoxin. I have quoted below a very thorough summation that explains this more in depth. In the end, you should definitely take precaution when ingesting MDA and be sure to practice the same harm reduction techniques as you would with MDMA. Unless you've been consuming grams every weekend, I wouldn't worry too much. Our brain is an amazing machine and is extremely capable of repairing itself. With that said, I would definitely advise you to take a nice, long break (at least 3 months) and allow your brain to fully recover. Stay safe, brother, and start respecting the substance. Once you do that, it will respect you. :)

Quote
First off, let's discuss how MDMA is metabolized. The human cytochrome CYP450 is responsible for the metabolism of MDMA. The primary enzyme responsible is CYP2D6, using O-demethylation. This process adds two hydrogen atoms to the two open oxygen atoms in MDMA to create HHMA. Let's look at the structure for a minute.

MDMA is 3,4-methylenedioxy-N-methylamphetamine
HHMA is 3,4-dihydroxy-N-methylamphetamine

So your CYP2D6 enzyme added two hydrogen atoms to the methylenedioxy structure to create a dihydroxy structure. Once it's been o-demethylated to HHMA, it is no longer active like MDMA is. HHMA can then be 0-methylated further to HMMA, or 4-hydroxy-3-methoxy-N-methylamphetamine. Here is an image to help you visualize this process (http://i.imgur.com/RY6Mt.jpg)

This is the primary route of metabolism.

Is that the end of the story? Nope! Yes MDMA is primarily metabolized by CYP2D6. However, a portion of your dose (~10%) is also metabolized by your CYP3A4 enzyme using N-demethylation. What substance is created by this process? MDA, or 3,4-methylenedioxyamphetamine. You see, this time your CYP3A4 enzyme changed the methyl group at the N position, and not the O position. This modified the methyl group into an amine group. We are now left with MDMA's more neurotoxic brother in our blood stream.

Let's add this into the picture from above (http://i.imgur.com/xTDcQ.jpg).
 
MDA is then metabolized in the exact same manner MDMA was, o-demetylation by CYP2D6. So we add two hydrogen atoms to the O position to create HHA, or 3,4-dihydroxyamphetamine. So we essentially end up with HHMA with an amine group at the N position instead of a methyl group. It can also be o-methylated further (like HHMA) into HMA 4-hydroxy-3-methoxyamphetamine. Same thing as HMMA, just with an amine group instead of the methyl group.

So at this point you might be thinking how this all really matters. Well MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain have been shown (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11351932) to NOT be neurotoxic. Well shit, there we go. Metabolism is to blame.

Not so fast! A study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1908797/pdf/brjpharm00190-0167.pdf) showed that individuals with lower CYP2D6 did not show lower neurotoxicity. In fact, they showed slightly higher. It may have led (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1874389/) to some deaths as well. This led to the notion being tabled for a while.

So what is up then? Well where is the next logical place to look? Perhaps CYP3A4!

A person that has a genetic condition resulting in lower CYP2D6 enzyme is going to have what happen to their MDMA? A greater percentage will be N-demethylated to MDA by CYP3A4.

This is going to lead to what? Higher HHA serum levels.

HHA is what? A potent neurotoxin! (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378)

So MDMA and MDA injected directly into the brain show NO neurotoxicity. Individuals with lower CYP2D6 enzyme show higher levels of neurotoxicity. This leads me to believe that HHMA is not the primary culprit (probably still a factor though).

MDA has been shown to be much more neurotoxic than MDMA. MDA is NOT neurotoxic when directly injected into the brain. MDA cannot be metabolized into HHMA, but is directly metabolized to HHA. HHA is a potent neurotoxin.

Is anybody smelling what I am cooking over here?!? MDA is the cause of MDMA's neurotoxicity through metabolism to HHA (Also known as alpha-methyldopamine). BOOM!

Alpha-methyldopamine causes neurotoxicity. (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9128836)
Another link! (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378)
And another! (http://dmd.aspetjournals.org/content/37/7/1448.full.pdf)

Now I have been taking quercetin and grapefruit juice with my MDMA for a while now. These substances are CYP3A4 inhibitors. I knew that CYP3A4 metabolized part of my dose to MDA. I knew it was more neurotoxic, which is why I did this. However, I did not connect the dots as to why it was more neurotoxic.

Many postulated it was because of MDA's higher affinity for dopamine. However, why then did direct injections of it in the brain not cause neurotoxicity? If it was dopamine being re-uptaked by your SERT that was causing the damage, it would still be present when MDMA or MDA was directly injected into the brain. In fact, it would be higher. Yet we saw NO neurotoxicity.

Others were skeptical because the metabolism to HHA was only seen in rats. However, the 2009 study (http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19349378) proved it happened in humans too! So hot damn, I am pretty sure this is a verifiable theory here. We definitely need studies to prove it though.

TL;DR I postulate that MDMA induced 5-HT neurotoxicity arises from the metabolism to MDA, consequently creating HHA or alpha-methyldopamine. Another route of neurotoxicy comes from the ring-hydroxylation of MDA to THA, or 2,4,5-trihydroxyamphetamine.

Now do NOT take what I am saying as the end all and be all of potential MDMA induced damage. There is excitotoxicity at your ion channels, as well as other oxidative damage that can come into play. I will speak to these in other posts. This has also not been proven yet. So please take this post as a starting point, not a final answer. Feel free to pick apart my theory and find anything that I may have overlooked. I would rather be wrong and find the truth, then think I'm right and perpetuate a fallacy.

Further reading:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7582557
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2457659
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1784586
http://www.maps.org/publications/1987_stone_3.pdf
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: 4theCause on March 16, 2013, 03:18 am
Wow! (imaginary +1 cuz im still a junior)
didn't realize you already had that information in the thread, excuse my laziness :)
3 months seems like much too long for me to hold out, but you're right about this molecule deserving respect.  I'll wait until summer, thank you for the info!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 16, 2013, 03:32 am
Wow! (imaginary +1 cuz im still a junior)
didn't realize you already had that information in the thread, excuse my laziness :)
3 months seems like much too long for me to hold out, but you're right about this molecule deserving respect.  I'll wait until summer, thank you for the info!

You're very welcome! And yes, it is a long time but just imagine how amazing the roll will be. I like to try and set a date a few months ahead of time in which I plan to roll so I can let the anticipation build. I find being able to look forward to something to make the experience that much more fulfilling and all around awesome! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: This Is Serious Mum on March 16, 2013, 05:07 am

Truly wonderfully educational material AnimusVox.

The information you have provided has not only added to my own harm minimisation practices. ..but has also reinforced my own cautionary approach in my own application of MDMA.

+1 for you.

Keep up the great effort in providing stimulating information.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 16, 2013, 06:54 am

Truly wonderfully educational material AnimusVox.

The information you have provided has not only added to my own harm minimisation practices. ..but has also reinforced my own cautionary approach in my own application of MDMA.

+1 for you.

Keep up the great effort in providing stimulating information.

Thank you, brother! I will say, though, that I am just a messenger. The true credit goes to all the wonderful scientists that continually research these things in search of a better understanding. Without their efforts, none of this would be possible! Promoting harm reduction is the path to the legalization of recreational drugs, in my opinion. People simply need and deserve to know the truth! Much love. :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: onefishtwofishredfishblue on March 16, 2013, 09:35 am
subbing;this be some good reading
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: badniff on March 16, 2013, 09:27 pm
It frightens me that that no mentioning of the negative effects of candy-flipping are mentioned in these forums (EDIT: I admit that I have not scoured the forum in depth, so I might have missed a mention somewhere)

Quote
To elucidate the role of the serotonin (5-HT)2A/2C receptors in 3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine (MDMA)-induced neurotoxicity, MDMA was administered to rats and the presence of the serotonin transporter (5-HTT) was assessed at the protein level with immunohistochemistry (IHC), and the RNA level with a Northern blotting technique. d-lysergic acid diethylamide (LSD) and MDL 11,939 were given in conjunction with MDMA in order to assess the importance of 5-HT receptors in MDMA-induced neurotoxicity. The hypothesis is that the MDMA + LSD-treated animals should have more neurotoxicity as measured by loss of 5-HTTs compared to the MDMA-treated animals. Moreover, the loss of 5-HTTs should be attenuated in animals given the combination of MDMA + MDL 11,939, as the latter drug is a selective 5-HT2A/2C antagonist. The results showed that MDMA-induced neurotoxicity was dose dependently increased by LSD. Moreover, the drug MDL 11,939 attenuated MDMA-induced neurotoxicity, suggesting that 5-HT2A/2C receptors are involved in MDMA-induced neurotoxicity.

Second to last sentence in the quote:  "The results showed that MDMA-induced neurotoxicity was dose dependently increased by LSD."

Source: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/nrc.20023/abstract

This is not new research. If you know more, please tell and provide sources! It is imperative to know the risks of your drugs :)

Note: The study only applies to LSD, but I see no reason to assume that other drugs combined with MDMA are less dangerous. Do you?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 20, 2013, 08:09 pm
Thank you very much for the link to that study, badniff! Since I was completely taken aback by this study (and rather concerned since LSD + MDMA is my favorite combination!) and didn't have a thorough explanation regarding the findings of the study, I sought advice from a more knowledgeable individual. His explanation definitely quelled any doubts in my mind about the combination, and I hope you find the information valuable as well! Here is his response:

Quote
What a half-assed study! What were the body temperatures of the groups?

This makes sense, though. LSD is a 5-HT2a/b/c agonist. If you agonize 5-HT2c, your body temperature is going to rise. Remember all my ranting about body temperature and MDMA induced neurotoxicity? Higher body temps lead to higher 5-HT system damage. Hydroxyl radicals are the cause of the 5-HT system damage, but body temperature plays a huge role in how bad that damage is.

So yes, LSD can exacerbate MDMA induced 5-HT system toxicity by agonizing the 5-HT2c receptors, consequently leading to increased body temperature, overwhelming your antioxidant systems. This study starts going off on a tangent about how since fluoxetine blocked 5-HT system damage even though temperatures rose, that means that temperature is not the cause. No shit dumbasses! Temperature is a mediating factor, not the cause. Alpha lipoic acid (a potent CNS antioxidant) also blocks 5-HT system damage even though temperature stays high. That does not mean your little experiment was a result of another mechanism surrounding 5-HT2a. MDL is a 5-HT2c antagonist as well, so it blocking the toxicity fits perfect with temperature rise being the factor here. They could have isolated that by taking body temp readings.

Most of their postulations in the discussion are flawed. I've read most of the studies they cite. There are some flaws in those studies as well, but it's mostly their interpretation of the studies that is the issue. I would be willing to bet that it was LSD's 5-HT2c agonism that led to a temperature increase, which exacerbated the MDMA induced toxicity by overwhelming the body's antioxidant system. It's not 5-HT2a agonism, it's the temperature increase.

The two MDMA metabolites, 2,5-Bis-(glutathion-S-yl)-alpha-methyldopamine and 2,4,5-trihydroxyamphetamine, are to blame for the actual damage. Alpha lipoic acid binds to both and protects the axons from being damaged. Fluoxetine blocks the SERT, preventing the hydroxyl radicals from entering the neuron. It also happens to inhibit CYP3A4, preventing the metabolism to MDA in the first place. Both of those block 5-HT system damage, while body temperatures are still high. THC lowers MDMA induced 5-HT system toxicity as well, by lowering body temperature. It does not prevent metabolism, nor does it block the SERT. However, the lowering of body temperature allows the body's natural antioxidant systems to remain efficient. However, if you block the metabolism, you block the whole cause of the 5-HT system damage to begin with. THA and the gluthathione conjugate of alphamethyldopamine are the real assholes.

So protecting from this is a threefold affair. One, block the metabolites by inhibiting CYP3A4. Two, keep your body temperature down. THC is good for this. Three, block your SERT at the end of your roll. Fluoxetine works well for this, as well as providing more CYP3A4 inhibition.

So redo the study, but have the rats smoke some marijuana and see if the 5-HT system damage still goes up. Or they could have just measured body temps to begin with...
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on March 20, 2013, 08:21 pm
So taking a serotonic reuptake inhibitor at the end of a roll is better than taking 5-htp ?

If so, is it really useful to take a ssri just once, when usually it takes 2 weeks of treatment to start noticing effects ? Am i mixing things up ?  :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on March 20, 2013, 08:44 pm
So taking a serotonic reuptake inhibitor at the end of a roll is better than taking 5-htp ?

If so, is it really useful to take a ssri just once, when usually it takes 2 weeks of treatment to start noticing effects ? Am i mixing things up ?  :)

There was a study a while back that suggested, in rats, that taking an ssri at the end of the roll decreased damage done. You don't need a full treatment, just a pill at the end of the night. Most people think the study was flawed and don't bother with it but really not much harm if you decide to do it. My experience says that I feel much better if I just get a really good nights sleep and then eat well and get active the next day. Works every time for me anyway.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 20, 2013, 08:52 pm
Taking an SSRI at the end of a roll (6-7 hours in) will block the SERT which will prevent the uptake of any nasty remaining metabolites that are floating around, in turn, mitigating damage.

5-HTP is the direct precursor to serotonin, and is created from tryptophan hydroxlayse (TPH). Since MDMA reduces TPH levels drastically for a couple of weeks after a roll, serotonin will not be as readily produced. Supplementing with 5-HTP in the week following a roll will help your brain restore serotonin to its proper levels.

The two are both beneficial to the recovery of your 5-HT axons but act completely differently, so taking both is definitely advised. I hope this helps clear up any confusion. :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on March 20, 2013, 09:26 pm
My experience says that I feel much better if I just get a really good nights sleep and then eat well and get active the next day. Works every time for me anyway.

Much respect if you can get active (running ?) the next day, I pretty much feel lethargic and physically weak on the next day, maybe because I smoke weed while I'm rolling.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on March 20, 2013, 09:28 pm
The two are both beneficial to the recovery of your 5-HT axons but act completely differently, so taking both is definitely advised. I hope this helps clear up any confusion. :)

but not at the same time, right ? Even if my serotonin is depleted after a roll, taking both a ssri and 5htp could still produce serotonin syndrome, isn't it?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: badniff on March 20, 2013, 09:39 pm
+1 for that great reply, AnimusVox! Was wondering if anyone even noticed my post :) I will admit that I didn't understand half of what your contact wrote, but I will put my mind to understanding it. I am forwarding it to the contacts on my side to see what they have to say. Personally I will keep on the safe side until I understand this process better. Thanks again!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 20, 2013, 09:42 pm
My experience says that I feel much better if I just get a really good nights sleep and then eat well and get active the next day. Works every time for me anyway.

Much respect if you can get active (running ?) the next day, I pretty much feel lethargic and physically weak on the next day, maybe because I smoke weed while I'm rolling.

Exercise after rolling is probably the best way to speed up recovery as exercise stimulates a release of BDNF which encourages the growth of new serotonin axons. You may feel lethargic, but even a 10 minute jog the day after around the neighborhood will help immensely.

The two are both beneficial to the recovery of your 5-HT axons but act completely differently, so taking both is definitely advised. I hope this helps clear up any confusion. :)

but not at the same time, right ? Even if my serotonin is depleted after a roll, taking both a ssri and 5htp could still produce serotonin syndrome, isn't it?

Ahh, you're definitely right... combining the two is unwise! Thank you for correcting my oversight, as serotonin syndrome is definitely something to be wary of. Personally, I would stick to supplementing with 5-HTP after a roll. The amount of oxygen species found after the end of a roll if you supplement appropriately with antioxidants (ALA, vitamin C, vitamin E, etc.) should be quite negligible, so helping aide the recovery process would definitely be the better route.

+1 for that great reply, AnimusVox! Was wondering if anyone even noticed my post :) I will admit that I didn't understand half of what your contact wrote, but I will put my mind to understanding it. I am forwarding it to the contacts on my side to see what they have to say. Personally I will keep on the safe side until I understand this process better. Thanks again!

You're very welcome! I definitely noticed it the day you posted, but admittedly I needed to clarify my own understanding before I commented on it. Cheers, brother! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: azmotox1 on March 20, 2013, 09:57 pm
I have been supplementing with MDMA off and on for about 3 years now. For the most part I would wait at least a few months in between rolls but there have been probably 5 instances where I rolled for multiple days in a row such as 3 day festivals. Overall I would say that I have rolled between 40 and 60 times. I am between 20 and 25 years old and have always been a straight A student, very bright business wise and always alert.

Anyways over the course of the last year or so I have noticed that I constantly feel as if my head is in a "fog". A lack of motivation is common and I feel really tired almost everyday. My doctor prescribed my wellbutrin for minor depression and minor attention deficit disorder and I have been taking 300mg ed for about 2 weeks now. Also I am a very healthy individual. I have always taken many supplements, multi vitamins, vitamin c, b complex, and exercise daily!

I really want to know if I have potentially experienced some neurotoxicity problems? I am definitely not an "e-tard" by any means and can still function but I don't feel as "sharp" or "on point" as I used to.

Any input is appreciated!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: onefishtwofishredfishblue on March 21, 2013, 06:31 am
feel this is off topic, but don't really know where to put this
story time!
[=-sorry about spelling/grammar; would edit it, but don't have word and text is so small on the roads-=]
it could be from the mdma/too much previous drug use, depression, learning how to live life, or a combination of these.  i know i did well in hs/jc cause my parents were on my ass.  forced me to study, do athletics and kept on my ass.  they made life easy for me.  didn't have to work.  all i had to do was get grades or get beat... once i got to college i had ultimate freedom.  i first did attend class, but then didn't, eat shit food, party/drink every night which i did and get kicked out...i couldn't  handle my shit you fuck up big time.  never have spoken to a psychologist/councilor as this was recommended for my depression.  i know many schools allow students to speak to someone for free for x amount of visits, but never went because maybe i didnt know to learn/know how fucked i am.  just speaking personally i knew i didn't like learning what i was learning, but kept at it because i wanted to please my parents.  this really fucked me over as i did worse the longer i was in it.  i tired to change majors slightly to keep in the field but that wasn't helping.  my personal habits (exercise and eating right) went out the window when adjusting to live by myself.  i ran out of clean underwear and had nights when i was so drunk/hung over i would just deal with it rather then getting food from safeway which was across the road...  im sure i became depressed and didn't really know it/couldn't cope with what was happening with my life.  avoided coming home, answering the phone and dealing with the issue.  to combat my hardship for whatever reason i started taking a shitload of e for a quarter.  just parting my ass off.  found a good group of functioning alcoholics.  we drank m-su.  like every fucking night!  figured they could party and do school and so could i.   i would roll 2-3 times a week consuming multiple pills.  it got so bad i couldn't remember how many i had taken and decided to log them on a calender.  im sure i did 15-20 pills a month easily.  i really did a number on myself.  my roommate had to sit me down and gave it to me straight.  sometime in spring i stopped taking e to the point of no return.  by summer i did it on occasion.  after finals and or on days that needed to be cherished.  i wanted to prove to myself that my brain wasn't broken.  did 3 classes in one session and did well B/B-/B.  had to put in a lot of time, but it felt great to know my brain worked to some degree.  thought i met the requirements to get back into school, but still a bit too fucked up to realize that i didn't fulfill my requirements.  in fall i was dropped from all my classes and started smoking mass amounts of weed every day.  to this day only my other sibling knows what happened.  another friend of 2 years suggested that i go see my doctor and talk to see if i have depression.  it was reluctant, but i finally did.  i was diagnosed with severe depression.  i thought it was bullshit, but i did think about killing myself ect.  after a few months on meds i realized this girl who i had been seeing on and off was bad for me and ended things.  a bit after that i stopped taking my meds.  they really wernt working.  yes it did help me stop thinking about suicide, but the environment and double life i was living was very taxing.  i came back home and well had to be clean sort of.  realized that college was over and i had to get my shit together.  slowly stopped smoking weed and applied to state schools.  i got accepted and spent the next 1.5 years taking night classes while working part time to cover expenses.  meanwhile i got a friend to make a fake diploma which is framed.  both my parents think i finished at a much better school!  went and saw another doctor a year later about my depression.  it was considered moderate.  i told him that i was soon going to be finishing school and looking for work.  i wanted this off my record.  he was down to change it to none or minor.  currently looking for full time work.  life has become bland and although i feel like i function normally something is off/missing.  my brain still works to some degree as i am motivated to read a book a month and take classes for fun at my local jc since i only work part time.  i can't tell if its from all the drug use or coming terms with my future and life as well as life becomes hard since i never had a hard childhood or young adulthood.  anyways the last time i took mdma was in june.  its been 9 months.  i now have the control either from living at home and or finally getting my shit together to use responsibly.  over the last few years i have tried to learn more about mdma on a deeper lvl and just common knowledge.  i am shocked sometimes how reckless my friends take it.  i try to advise them about what they should do, but its a learning process i guess.

gpa
3.7 hs-did honors, but no ap
3.4 jc1shit was a joke
less than 2.5 @ private- hardest shit ever!
2.9 state-just like hs but with no hot bitches
4.0 jc2
3.5 jc3

sorry for the long story

cliffs
did well in hs/jc as it was easy
got into top 10 school in the nation and got kicked out due to living on my own for the first time
winter-got depressed/couldn't cope with failure so i told no one and drank/partied all the time-taking soo much e that i couldn't remember how many and which days so i wrote them on a calender
spring- slowly stopped taking so much e. 
over summer did 3 classes and did well
fall-thought i fulfilled my reinstatement, but didn't so i started smoking everyday 1/8 if not more
winter-friend noticed that i may be depressed and get diagnosed with severe depression.  ie thought about killing myself
spring-still partying, but only alcohol and weed; e occasionally
summer-end things with this girl and stop taking meds
fall-smoke lots of weed, but read textbooks for fun/board
winter-"graduate" make fake diploma and go back home.  apply for state school
spring-work pt and go to school at night
fall-diagnosed as severe/moderate; stop thinking about killing myself/doc is cool to write it as minor
winter-graduate with degree
spring-looking for full time work/take random interesting classes

not sure if i am the same person as i use to be as i was always smiling and happy.  most of the time if i don't need to do it i wont do it.  i still have chores i need to do ie cooking, cleaning, yard-work but i don't go out as much and become a recluse [probably don't even get 15 mins of sunshine] *even go out of the house as there is no point.  food in the fridge* (not sure if its cause im financially conscious and or have no new/old friends).  go through odd periods of working out then nothing for several months.  go hard maybe once a month (just alcohol) or every 1.5 months.  ive abstained from coke, adderal, xanax, and e for 9 moths.  i guess i still feel depressed, but not to the degree of harming myself.  its probably still present as my motivation isnt there as well as just conforming and getting shit done on other people/the worlds rhythmic clock.  not as bad as previous years ie missing/late to appointments/applying/filing paperwork on specific days.  still, but can't tell if i am unmotivated because its due to drug use or due to environment/current living and future worries has partially immobilized me.  i guess i see lots of people coming up in life and sometimes getting passed by by the younger cats.  i know people are doing as poor as me setting up a future and some have not not bettered them self from high school.    i can't tell if i am lost in life or have done irreversible harm/etard status.  have lost many hobbies and friends then again i don't know if its an age thing.  lately friends havnt been there for me so i am questing our friendship, but not sure if they are overly busy.    wish i knew these answers and had my life very controlled.  thought about enlisting a few times.  :(
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: badniff on March 21, 2013, 08:45 am
onefishtwofishredfishblue: That is some serious shit, man :( I hope you can work things out. About your friends' reckless use of E; some lessons can only be learnt from experience. I believe they know the risks, but probably without understanding them. My advice to you is simple; sobriety, lots of exercise, lots of fresh air and start talking about your problems with friends or family. I know it is hard to see the point, but I promise that it will help. Maybe you should start a martial art or yoga, those are great for both the mind and the body. With sobriety I mean: Don't smoke weed every day, and be careful with E. Hope all goes well <3

AnimusVox: I talked with a trusted contact and he came with the predicted response: "This seems good and all, but we need better sources." If anybody finds a study contradicting the one stating that LSD potentiates the neurotoxicity of MDMA,or just a well written and published critique of it, I would be very interested in hearing of it :) Anonymous critiques - no matter how well written - are of limited use.

Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 21, 2013, 09:51 am
@badniff: I understand completely where both you and your friend are coming from! Unfortunately I do not know of any literature that critiques the study so this is what we have to go by. On a personal level, I'm going to continue to combine LSD and MDMA on occasion as the key to MDMA induced neurotoxicity is body temperature, and I always manage my body temperature extremely well. Maintaining a healthy set of guidelines when rolling and supplementing properly will almost completely, if not entirely, mitigate any potential damage that may arise as well. MDMA is incredibly safe when used responsibly, but unfortunately the majority of individuals using it are ignorant to this responsible use and are the ones in danger. The individuals that do not abstain between each use, overexert themselves, do not stay properly hydrated, ignore proper supplementation, and redose with large amounts throughout one sitting are those that are heavily effected. People like you and I who err on the side of caution are quite safe from MDMA induced neurotoxicity. :)

Also, if your contact is of a medical background and is interested in reading the full study in question, you can find it here: https://docs.google.com/file/d/0Bw6nSrA4s4MpYnFuZmVuUGJYN1U/edit?pli=1

Cheers! :)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: AnimusVox on March 21, 2013, 09:40 pm
Cross posting this for future reference:

Sorry for the derail, but...

@DiamondSky: May I ask why you do not buy into MDMA being neurotoxic? I'm legitimately interested as to why you do not heed the findings of hundreds upon hundreds of scientific studies. You state that it's because they pump high doses of MDMA into rats that seem to be higher than any recreational dosage a human being would take. I must stress that rats are extremely tolerant to neurotoxic effects of ANYTHING so they must follow a dose responsive curve. This curve compares to recreational dosages to humans. Let me better help paint a picture of MDMA induced neurotoxicity in HUMANS since studies in rats do not seem to convince you.

Here's one that found a reduction in SERT in former ecstasy users.
> http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/44/3/375.abstract

Here's another one that had similar results.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576026?dopt=Abstract

Here's one that noted "long-lasting changes in brain function consistent with 5-HT toxicity".
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991874

Here's one that found decreased serotonin binding in users.
> http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/6/1779.abstract

Here's one that found long-term effects effects on central neuronal activity in humans.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/175/2/186.short

Here's one that found a long-lasting increase in cortical excitability in former users.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21326196

These are studies that included neuroimaging on human users. This is important because researchers can physically SEE the alterations. More studies have found LONG-TERM damage as well. Let me direct you to a few more:

Here's one that found reduced cortical SERT binding in former users after months of abstinence.
> http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=211305

Here's one that found NO improvement in verbal memory in former users 2.5 years of abstinence.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16510479

Here's one that found long lasting serotonin system impairment in former users.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322399001808

Let's talk about cognitive decline for a second as well. Here's a good overview of the cognitive decline in human users.

Quote
Evidence from human studies has accumulated more slowly, but it is becoming apparent that the toxic effect of MDMA on central serotonergic systems found previously in animal studies has a clear parallel in human users of the drug.There is now direct evidence of a lasting decrease in 5-HT uptake sites (a marker for the integrity of 5-HT nerve terminals) in human volunteers with a past history of MDMA abuse.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071023/

This meta-study found CLEAR evidence of neurocognitive decline in former MDMA users and clearly states there is DIRECT evidence for neurotoxicity. And this paper used 28 other studies as sources! Let me keep going, because there's hundreds more studies I can quote. Here's a few dealing with memory impairments.

Here's one from Hong Kong that found abstinent users were impaired in memory, verbal fluency, and complex attention.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/54l1rt315ew2f58a/

Here's one that found that even a small, first dose of ecstasy can cause a decline in verbal memory.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062

Here's another that found memory impairments and the researchers believe it is directly caused by Serotonergic neurotoxicty.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062

Here's one that found memory impairments in abstinent users and evidence of PFC dysfunction.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/20/3/373.abstract

Here's one that found a direct relationship between amount of usage and amount of declarative memory deficit.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/4/465.abstract

Here's one that found that heavy users had a weaker blood oxygenation level-dependent response during a working memory task.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706227

And not all evidence is limited to just 5-HT axons and the SERT. Evidence exists that MDMA damages vital brain structures as well.

Here's one that found hippocampal damage in chronic users.
> http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/83/1/83.abstract

This study found that the hippocampus in MDMA users literally shrinks. The hippocampus is implemented in mnemonic function. And I feel the need to point out that Alzheimer's patients also demonstrate hippocampal atrophy!

Here's one that found diminished hippocampal activation during memory retrieval.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/8x4gh2402y2ay2dw/

Speaking of the hippocampus, here's a case report of a 16 year old who suffered "hippocampal remodelling" after low to moderate use.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18609419

Here's one that found toxic effects on the thalamus.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/193/4/289.abstract

And this is just HUMAN studies I am referencing. There are also hundreds upon hundreds of animal studies that prove neurotoxicity in several species including rats, mice, guinea pigs, and primates. Animal studies are important because researchers can literally cut open the brains of the subjects and SEE the damage that is being done. Let me state this simple fact right now: MDMA neurotoxicity is no longer up for debate. It hasn't been for a very long time. Researchers almost unanimously agree.

IT IS A PROVEN NEUROTOXIN.

With all this said, MDMA can be used safely with very little repercussions when used RESPONSIBLY by allowing 2-3 months between use, maintaining healthy dosing guidelines, supplementing each roll properly with antioxidants, and most importantly, ensuring you keep a LOW BODY temperature.

I love MDMA just as much as the next, but stating that "you do not buy into it" is flat out unwise. I truly mean no disrespect with this post, but you need to realize and accept the dangers, brother. Much love to you.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on March 21, 2013, 11:34 pm
Copied here since you posted over here too, happy to chat in the other thread though, easier in one place:

Sure, here is a case by case run down for why this is not science:

http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/44/3/375.abstract - Non controlled study of people that said they were active or had been active MDMA users. At no point was the use of MDMA confirmed and no other lifestyle or concurrent drug use taken into consideration. To put it another way, if I collected a portion of the population that had no cars and a portion of the population that had fords and examined the percentage of people in the Ford owning group who had been in an accident I could scientifically prove by the same logic in this study that Ford's caused auto accidents.

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576026?dopt=Abstract - Exactly the same flawed "science" as above. How much MDMA did they take? Was it tested? Did they drink when taking it? Were they at raves or sitting at home? Did they snort a half pound of heroin at the same time? I could go on for days why this provides zero useful information and fails completely to qualify as science.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991874 - Is not even a study but instead a proposal of how to look at how to study MDMA induced neurochemical alterations.

http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/6/1779.abstract - Same as the first two, subjects took what they claim was MDMA as well as any number of other drugs and yet this study seeks to claim that MDMA caused any perceived differences between the groups.

http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/175/2/186.short - Once again the same exact failing as the previous "studies". I don't know how you are missing this but all of these are taking "drug users" who have also taken MDMA or what they thought was MDMA and found that their brains are slightly different. There is no single point of data in any of these that suggests that MDMA is responsible and I could change the criteria of the test to pot, speed, meth or anything else and come to the same conclusion because all the subjects did all that stuff too!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21326196 - As above...

You know I was going to go through the whole list but the reality of it is there's really no point in driving further down. The fact is not a single scientific controlled study has administered MDMA to human users in exclusion of other drugs and demonstrated before and after differences of the subject as a result of MDMA use. That is what science is, this, all of these, they are hearsay and supposition.

I'm all about harm reduction and yes I think that MDMA causes changes to your neurochemistry. However I think that by parading around non-scientific studies and claiming that they provide some insight into the potential harm of any given chemical is just as irresponsible as claiming there is no harm to be had. Everyone single one of the studies above could have been conducted on Marijuana and come to the same conclusion because there was no discrimination on what other drugs were taken. Is that really science for you when the result of the study can be exchanged for any number of other chemicals without any change?

Not trying to pick a fight as you can hopefully tell. I love MDMA research, I wish we would actually do some. For all we know 90% of any damage done could be mitigated by something as simple as regulating body temperature through a cold shower or a glass of ice water. But these studies do not seek to mitigate harm they seek to propagate the idea that MDMA is bad and unfortunately I feel it's wrong to spread that rumor blindly.

Anyway, love the thread and will continue to look forward to real information about the effects this lovely drug has on people. I hope some day this becomes a legally available substance that we can all learn to use responsibly since I feel like most people would benefit from seeing the world through the beautiful window that MDMA provides.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: mooshika on March 22, 2013, 02:05 am
In defense of DiamondSky's skepticism, I'll just point out that several decades of drug prohibition can easily tempt people, even intelligent people, to ascribe more danger to these substances than is justified. Many scientists have believed they found evidence that cannabis, for instance, causes brain damage, but the evidence typically turns out to be derived from faulty research.

I shouldn't be surprised if the prohibitionist mentality influences even the drug-friendly Silk Road community. Perhaps the truly dangerous neurotoxin is the war on drugs.

(I'm posting a duplicate of this message on the other thread.)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: gtgeorgz on March 28, 2013, 12:19 pm
What DLPA's effectiveness in pre-loading, does anyone know? Or even tried it?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: davidthegnome on March 28, 2013, 06:00 pm
I have read over this thread several times. And I had a question about the MDMA+2c-B combo.
I consider myself somewhat versed in MDMA but not so much with 2c-B.

Does anyone have info on if 2c-B amplifies the neuro-toxicity of MDMA (or MDA) ?
Or does it have any effect at all?

Great thread! Thanks for starting it. :D
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: DiamondSky on March 28, 2013, 06:45 pm
I have read over this thread several times. And I had a question about the MDMA+2c-B combo.
I consider myself somewhat versed in MDMA but not so much with 2c-B.

Does anyone have info on if 2c-B amplifies the neuro-toxicity of MDMA (or MDA) ?
Or does it have any effect at all?

Great thread! Thanks for starting it. :D

Obviously I can't address the neurotoxic question (since no one can) but I've done 2CB at the end of numerous rolls and can tell you that it leaves me feeling better the next day than if I had just rolled without it. It's sort of counter-intuitive since most the time when I stack drugs I feel worse the next day but for some reason 10-15mg of 2CB takes the edge off and I wake up the next day feeling great. Plus if I have the 2CB handy and dose that at the right time it normally keeps me from fiending on more MDMA by moving me onto a different high without such a sharp drop off like MDMA has (i.e. I'm high and then I'm not).

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: chil on March 29, 2013, 02:46 pm
I've done 2CB at the end of numerous rolls and can tell you that it leaves me feeling better the next day than if I had just rolled without it.

At least no one is going to argue on this, I've yet to hear about someone who does think the opposite.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: davidthegnome on March 29, 2013, 03:35 pm
I've done 2CB at the end of numerous rolls and can tell you that it leaves me feeling better the next day than if I had just rolled without it.

At least no one is going to argue on this, I've yet to hear about someone who does think the opposite.

Thanks for the feedback gents! Knowledge is power ( and safety : )
I'll need to do a little more research to see what receptors the 2c-B effects. 2c-I is the only 2c I have had experience.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fingertothefbi on March 31, 2013, 06:50 am
So I have 5-htp  L-tyrosine  and piracetam

Can anyone recommend how i should take these supplements? 


Should i cycle on and off?

When I take them its 1000mg of L-tyrosine in the morning and a teaspoon of piracetam and then 100mg of 5-htp at night

I am currently cycling off these things because I'm uncertain if I am doing it correctly x)
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: Somepup on March 31, 2013, 09:14 pm
I must be one nuerotic mess because I took pills every weekend for 10 years.

5HTP - Sure it me groggy and lethargic the following day but I never thought it was all that. I took it for a few months before giving it to a friend who was getting treated for anti-depressants at the time.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: azmotox1 on April 04, 2013, 08:12 pm
Hey guys I am starting a new thread about potential 3 day festivals and drug lineups that would have minimal negative neurological effects, I was hoping some of you would help me out as I have found this thread very educating. Thanks  ;D

http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=142866.msg976595#msg976595
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: noirbert on May 08, 2013, 06:58 am
subb for later. Many thanks to all those before for laying out the safety and knowledge.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: xpat on May 08, 2013, 07:14 am
great info, subbed
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: thekid on May 17, 2013, 10:03 am
subbed also! great info thanks guys!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: slirp on May 21, 2013, 04:21 am
I so wish MDMA wasn't neurotoxic but wanting it to be something doesn't make it true.

I need to go back and read this entire thread but I'm also curious how toxic methylone and mephedrone/4-mmc are.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: VersacePandaEgg on May 30, 2013, 04:54 am
Subbed
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: caerus on June 30, 2013, 05:58 am
+1 every time I see you around, AV
Thanks for all the great posts :)

Cross posting this for future reference:

Sorry for the derail, but...

@DiamondSky: May I ask why you do not buy into MDMA being neurotoxic? I'm legitimately interested as to why you do not heed the findings of hundreds upon hundreds of scientific studies. You state that it's because they pump high doses of MDMA into rats that seem to be higher than any recreational dosage a human being would take. I must stress that rats are extremely tolerant to neurotoxic effects of ANYTHING so they must follow a dose responsive curve. This curve compares to recreational dosages to humans. Let me better help paint a picture of MDMA induced neurotoxicity in HUMANS since studies in rats do not seem to convince you.

Here's one that found a reduction in SERT in former ecstasy users.
> http://jnm.snmjournals.org/content/44/3/375.abstract

Here's another one that had similar results.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11576026?dopt=Abstract

Here's one that noted "long-lasting changes in brain function consistent with 5-HT toxicity".
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18991874

Here's one that found decreased serotonin binding in users.
> http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/133/6/1779.abstract

Here's one that found long-term effects effects on central neuronal activity in humans.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/175/2/186.short

Here's one that found a long-lasting increase in cortical excitability in former users.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21326196

These are studies that included neuroimaging on human users. This is important because researchers can physically SEE the alterations. More studies have found LONG-TERM damage as well. Let me direct you to a few more:

Here's one that found reduced cortical SERT binding in former users after months of abstinence.
> http://archpsyc.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=211305

Here's one that found NO improvement in verbal memory in former users 2.5 years of abstinence.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16510479

Here's one that found long lasting serotonin system impairment in former users.
> http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0006322399001808

Let's talk about cognitive decline for a second as well. Here's a good overview of the cognitive decline in human users.

Quote
Evidence from human studies has accumulated more slowly, but it is becoming apparent that the toxic effect of MDMA on central serotonergic systems found previously in animal studies has a clear parallel in human users of the drug.There is now direct evidence of a lasting decrease in 5-HT uptake sites (a marker for the integrity of 5-HT nerve terminals) in human volunteers with a past history of MDMA abuse.

Source: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1071023/

This meta-study found CLEAR evidence of neurocognitive decline in former MDMA users and clearly states there is DIRECT evidence for neurotoxicity. And this paper used 28 other studies as sources! Let me keep going, because there's hundreds more studies I can quote. Here's a few dealing with memory impairments.

Here's one from Hong Kong that found abstinent users were impaired in memory, verbal fluency, and complex attention.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/54l1rt315ew2f58a/

Here's one that found that even a small, first dose of ecstasy can cause a decline in verbal memory.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062

Here's another that found memory impairments and the researchers believe it is directly caused by Serotonergic neurotoxicty.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9952062

Here's one that found memory impairments in abstinent users and evidence of PFC dysfunction.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/20/3/373.abstract

Here's one that found a direct relationship between amount of usage and amount of declarative memory deficit.
> http://jop.sagepub.com/content/25/4/465.abstract

Here's one that found that heavy users had a weaker blood oxygenation level-dependent response during a working memory task.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12706227

And not all evidence is limited to just 5-HT axons and the SERT. Evidence exists that MDMA damages vital brain structures as well.

Here's one that found hippocampal damage in chronic users.
> http://jnnp.bmj.com/content/83/1/83.abstract

This study found that the hippocampus in MDMA users literally shrinks. The hippocampus is implemented in mnemonic function. And I feel the need to point out that Alzheimer's patients also demonstrate hippocampal atrophy!

Here's one that found diminished hippocampal activation during memory retrieval.
> http://www.springerlink.com/content/8x4gh2402y2ay2dw/

Speaking of the hippocampus, here's a case report of a 16 year old who suffered "hippocampal remodelling" after low to moderate use.
> http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/18609419

Here's one that found toxic effects on the thalamus.
> http://bjp.rcpsych.org/content/193/4/289.abstract

And this is just HUMAN studies I am referencing. There are also hundreds upon hundreds of animal studies that prove neurotoxicity in several species including rats, mice, guinea pigs, and primates. Animal studies are important because researchers can literally cut open the brains of the subjects and SEE the damage that is being done. Let me state this simple fact right now: MDMA neurotoxicity is no longer up for debate. It hasn't been for a very long time. Researchers almost unanimously agree.

IT IS A PROVEN NEUROTOXIN.








With all this said, MDMA can be used safely with very little repercussions when used RESPONSIBLY by allowing 2-3 months between use, maintaining healthy dosing guidelines, supplementing each roll properly with antioxidants, and most importantly, ensuring you keep a LOW BODY temperature.

I love MDMA just as much as the next, but stating that "you do not buy into it" is flat out unwise. I truly mean no disrespect with this post, but you need to realize and accept the dangers, brother. Much love to you.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: ianfleming on June 30, 2013, 06:10 am
Does anyone know if piracetam increases or decreases the neurotoxicity of MDMA?
I want to use it to attempt to restore that first time magic, but I'm afraid that it will increases the damage.
Any ideas?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: iheartmolly on June 30, 2013, 08:16 am
For this past festival(3 day festival), I used ...

Mens 1-a-day multivitamin (1 in the beginning of the day)
Airborne (3 a day, when I woke up, before the festival, after the festival)
5-htp (1 before I went to bed)
melatonin (1 before i went to bed)
salmon oil (2 for breakfast, for the fuck of it)

and I think that's it. Still experimenting with more things to add/change.
Will probably substitute xanax/valium on some days instead of melatonin.

I rolled, drank liquor and smoked weed all 3 nights. By the 3rd night, I wasn't able to achieve a satisfactory roll.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: marcellus_wallace on June 30, 2013, 08:22 pm
Very informative thread i'll be checking back for sure!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: l33tn355 on July 01, 2013, 03:26 am
I partied pretty hard for four nights, rolled for the last three festival nights and I didn't have a single withdraw or shitty come down. In fact, the hardest night I rolled was the third night and my initial dose was only slightly bigger than the previous two nights. In fact, it was my best roll ever, so the magic is still there for me. I take L- Tryptophan on a daily basis and have for almost a year now. I tried to take 5-HTP before the L- Tryptophan and it just made me feel like shit. The vitamins I take regardless of drug use, and all I do is roll and drink. 

Honestly, I think it has a HUGE factor in the quality of stuff you are taking. I was taking JoR all last week and I felt great every single morning. That or the l- tryptophan, which I have to say has been amazing for me as an every day vitamin, it generates a lot of positivity towards every day life, regardless of rolling. 5-HTP on the other hand blew ass.

With that said, everyone is different.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: p0och on July 03, 2013, 05:29 am
Subbed. Appreciate the info. You've definitely opened my eyes to the dangers. Also appreciate Diamond's view which I share the same skepticism.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: oldtoby on July 03, 2013, 06:05 am
MDA is actually believed to be more neurotoxic as it is a more potent serotonergic drug than MDMA. In fact, MDA metabolites are actually thought to be the reason for MDMA's neurotoxicity in the first place as MDA metabolizes into alpha-methyldopamine, which is a potent neurotoxin. I have quoted below a very thorough summation that explains this more in depth. In the end, you should definitely take precaution when ingesting MDA and be sure to practice the same harm reduction techniques as you would with MDMA. Unless you've been consuming grams every weekend, I wouldn't worry too much. Our brain is an amazing machine and is extremely capable of repairing itself. With that said, I would definitely advise you to take a nice, long break (at least 3 months) and allow your brain to fully recover.

Hmm. So I've been keeping in mind as a rule of thumb for MDMA: 3 months is ideal, 1 month minimum. Would you recommend against the single month interval for MDA?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fuckmadagascar on July 03, 2013, 08:08 am
The opening post to this thread is a wealth of knowledge, and the replies only aid in that. Thank you for posting this for us newcomers to MDMA.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: smogmonster13 on July 05, 2013, 12:38 pm
Does anyone know if piracetam increases or decreases the neurotoxicity of MDMA?
I want to use it to attempt to restore that first time magic, but I'm afraid that it will increases the damage.
Any ideas?

I don't know of any studies to indicate that it decreases the neurotoxicity of MDMA. There are studies to indicate that it is neuroprotective in animals. There are also some data suggesting that it can reverse certain types of brain damage caused by abuse of alcohol.

I do take it Ian, and have found that it does "bring back the magic" (maybe because it is a nonspecific potentiator), and that I have yet to experience a hangover or comedown of any kind. But I do not use it to dance all night (which undoubtedly has a physical toll and a heat influence).
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: trippykshit on July 05, 2013, 03:14 pm
Does (sensible dose of) MDMA do irreversible damage to the brain? If yes, what kind of?
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: slirp on July 05, 2013, 08:33 pm
Does (sensible dose of) MDMA do irreversible damage to the brain? If yes, what kind of?

It isn't just about dosage, it is about frequency of use.

In my judgement you should be fine provided you follow the guidelines set out in the OP.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: trippykshit on July 06, 2013, 07:06 pm
That means I'm good rolling 6-8 times each year! Thanks for the information!!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: zxydwx3 on July 07, 2013, 12:08 am
I bloody well wish. I did take a break for 4+ years until a couple months ago. Perhaps coincidentally, my renewed interest in MDMA seemed to happen at about the same time I learned about BTC, then TOR. Go figure. I wish I had the self-control to space my rolls out as much as suggested. Oh well. Many thanks to the OP and others for their substantial contributions!
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: rkk1993 on July 07, 2013, 10:59 pm
Wow, I wish I had discovered this earlier. I took half a gram of MDMA over the course of the night which was a really horrible idea and I felt like shit the next day. I don't plan to do it again for a while; possibly once more this semester but not overdoing it like last time. I think people (like myself, before) treat it kind of like cocaine, with which you can keep doing bumps over the course of the night, but that's clearly not a great idea. At 5 am, I just started getting wide eyed and twitchy and straight up strung out.
Yeah this happend to me the other night railed a good 300mgs and ate 200mgs over the course of 10 hours by the last line I took didn't feel any increase in good feeling. Didnt sleep that whole next day and every time I was excited the next day my eyes became dialated.
Title: Re: MDMA is neurotoxic. Here are some guidelines you should follow when rolling.
Post by: fatslimback on July 24, 2013, 07:01 pm
Hi.

Could someone suggest a good chelated magnesium I can buy in the UK? Scouting tinternet there are several brands, but I'm not sure whats best. I've been having real problems with my jaw when taking MDMA recently and I've read this could help.

Cheers.