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Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: kst1791 on December 19, 2012, 03:16 am

Title: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: kst1791 on December 19, 2012, 03:16 am
I thought I'd share a personal experience from back in the day in Canada, and offer to help others who might need it. I'm going to try to tell the story without giving up too many details to identify myself. Please bear in mind that this is only one person's experience in the Great White North - I have no idea what happens in the United States or any other country. Also, please forgive my sailor's language, this is a topic that makes my blood boil, with resultant swearing. And as a final caveat - please vendors don't worry about shipping to me - I'm so not on anyone's radar anymore it's ridiculous.

A long time ago, like 20 years ago, I had a friend send me a package of weed using FedEx. Very very very bad idea. We used fake names and real addresses (we weren't exactly "pros", just twenty-somethings sharing), and the package seemed to take forever to arrive. No delivery, "controlled" or otherwise, was made. Next thing I know, local police showed up AT MY WORKPLACE and asked me to accompany them to the station to "talk about a package". Of course I had to go with them or who knows what kind of commotion they might have created in front of my boss/co-workers to fuck with me. Once I got to the police station they had the package there in the interrogation room; it had never been opened, and they made all manner of threats over the course of a number of hours of interrogation, and told all kinds of lies. I asked to have a lawyer present but they told me that I was misinformed, that I did not have the right to a lawyer. They used all kinds of low blows; for example, this was a relatively small city, they knew my father and that he had been very abusive to me until I left home at age 16 (physically, emotionally, sexually), and they threatened to tell him that I was selling drugs (although I was in my mid-twenties by then, not living at home), and said "I wonder what he'll do to you when he hears that?" knowing full well that if they did that and my father got ahold of me, he would do some serious harm. Really really nasty shit. I'm not exactly sure what held me together through that ordeal, but I managed to keep my mouth shut except for denying knowledge of what was in the package or who the person was that it was addressed to etc. Eventually they opened the package, realized that it was just a small personal amount, not enough to charge me with trafficking, and let me go. I lived in mortal fear for weeks/months after that, but nothing ever came of it. This isn't something that follows me, I'm not flagged or anything, it was just a few asshole constables bullying a twenty-something female because they could.

I subsequently went to law school and practiced law for some time and learned that what the police had done had been a complete and total violation of my rights, and would never have stood up in court even if they had gotten me to admit something and/or charged me. I also learned that police pull shit like this ALL THE TIME, under the following premise:

The police don't give a flying fuck about the Charter of Rights or any other procedure. The only time the police are held to account for violations of rights is if a case goes to a trial and a judge decides whether the conduct of the investigation passes muster. 99% of criminal prosecutions NEVER go to trial. The police don't bother to lay charges, cases settle, people plead to lesser crimes, or prosecutors just drop cases because they're busy. So the police can and do violate rights all the time (most of them don't even know what your rights are), and that's just the reality of it. The "law" isn't worth the paper it's written on 99% of the time.

I guess what I'm trying to share / communicate is two things:

1) while I respect the advice of those who say stand your ground, you have this right and that right, and there's this law and that law, the cops don't care. if they want to fuck with you, they will, whether they have evidence or not, whether it's legal or not, and in whatever way they want. the chances of ever being able to hold them to account for their behaviour are all but nil.  I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't use SR, hell I'm here aren't i? Just don't want anyone to be under some illusion that they can politely say "I'm sorry officer but I prefer not to answer any questions without a lawyer present", and expect the cop to politely respond "Oh, no problem, let me show you the phone". That may not happen.

2) please, follow the advice on this forum and NEVER send packages using FEDEX. In the years since my experience I've heard of other people having problems with them as well, probably for the reasons already stated in other threads, i.e. that they're a private company and not subject to the same regulations as Canada Post.

If anyone has any questions about Canadian law feel free to post here and I'll be happy to provide some free advice if I can. Just trying to help out. :) My approach to legal advice is a pragmatic one: there's the law, then there's what actually happens. Often two totally different things.

:)
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: Ballzinator on December 19, 2012, 01:09 pm
+1, good read.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: acider on December 19, 2012, 06:58 pm
Thanks for sharing this!
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: sitamaja1 on December 19, 2012, 10:52 pm
+1, good read.

I have to agree really, a good read :)

I enjoy law a lot and this situation would make me sue the hell out of those dirty cops.

I could probably find about 5 ways in my country how they broke the law, don't know if those all would apply in Canada, but some would.
Like illegal entrapment, denying your international (human and lawful) rights and when knowing what your father could do to you; putting you in danger.

Well, I wish you all the best on SR and I hope no one posts anything with Fedex :P

~~sitamaja
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: kst1791 on December 20, 2012, 12:45 am
hey thanks for the good vibes! glad it was interesting for you to read, and hopefully at least a little informative  :D


sitamaja: yes all of those things legally apply here in canada too, but up here in the great white north the police have an army of top-shelf lawyers that will litigate you into the next millennium if you try to sue, so it's not much consolation.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: ShardInspector on December 20, 2012, 03:04 am
Thank you kst1791 for external confirmation on my own experience and belief.

Most countries legislation governing police powers is conspicuously absent of any sanctions against police for failure to abide by the statutes within.

Police will only ever be 'pulled up' on a violation of their governing legislation if when a matter is being heard and a judge finds the officers conduct to have been unlawful.

Even then, it is simply an admonishment from the Judge, as I said there is simply no sanctions written into the law that would impose a punishment 'personally' upon a police officer for non compliance.

So, they basically get a verbal slap on the wrist from a judge, but are personally unpublishable.

The case may be affected adversely to the police officers desires though because of their unlawful conduct and I believe in some rare cases if the officers superiors are made aware that a Judge found the officers conduct unlawful, that the officer may be reprimanded verbally by the superior. I believe that to be more for getting caught than for actually doing it though.

Other avenues of redress, as you have pointed out like suing the police officer personally are simply not feasible financially.

Basically, as they are not personally accountable for their actions and they know this, they can and do do whatever they want with the only restricting factor being what measure of personal morals they hold combined with how that interacts with their level of understanding of what the law actually allows or disallows of their conduct..... this combined with the fact they have the full force of the law on their side and that they carry a gun and can use it to arbitrarily arrest you and physically lock you up prior to any determination of guilt or innocence means that police are basically highly empowered, extremely dangerous and unpredictable creatures who by nature are already in opposition to you. I personally will do everything possible to have zero interactions with them ever.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: Heizenberg on December 20, 2012, 06:09 am
I got a question, I was reading up on some law stuff from USA and Canada and the part I read didn't specify if it was for Canadian Law or American.

Technically, I am 21 years old and I have a 2012 Camaro, in my city Police find young adults driving these type of cars, especially when mine is all black, tinted windows, black rims, windows never open past 20% very suspicious, they always look and stare and when I am in my friends car (7 series bmw) who is a year younger than me, they do the same to us.

Anyways, because of this, sometimes they pull me over for minor things that they just give me a warning for, at one point it was because the police thought my light was broken at the back but I noticed he was 'Sniffing' the air and trying to hide it, pretty much annoy me and try to stop me for no reason.. so I am assuming he thinks I have drugs on me or something.

Long story short, if a police officer pulls me over for something like speeding a bit, or broken tail light etc..etc.. if he asks to search my car by law am I not allowed to say "I do not consent to any searches, so no, sorry" and also can I not ask him "Officer, am I being detained" And if he says no which means he has no probable cause most likely that I can just drive off?

I fear this will be happening to me sooner or later and often and I don't want them violating my rights, I have some friends who leave certain things in my car accidentally and they come get it the next day, I just don't want to get in shit for not knowing what is in my car.

So my questions are, do I have the right to refuse a search of my person/car? and do I have the right to ask if I am being detained and if NO is the answer can I legally say "have a good night/day officer" and drive off?
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: ShardInspector on December 20, 2012, 06:28 am
Heizenberg - The very best thing to do is to whip out your mobile phone/mp3 player etc and start recording the exchanges between you and the police officer.
Make it obvious you are recording and be polite.
The officer will be thinking one of two things, either that you know a lawyer who has told you to do it or that your a smart ass... either way, while the recorder is rolling, what's he gonna do ?
He will play it by the book and move on looking for easier targets.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: kst1791 on December 20, 2012, 03:20 pm
Heizenberg:
Assuming you live in Canada (which is all I know about), here's the deal:

Law: If, at a traffic stop, the police have "reasonable grounds" (which could include an interesting smell wafting out your window) to believe you have drugs on your person (eg in your pocket) they can do a "pat-down" search of you. You have the right to refuse a traffic stop search of your vehicle (and legally the police do not have to tell you that you have the right to refuse), but if you do refuse, the police can then detain you and your vehicle, get a warrant based on their having professed "reasonable belief" that there is a crime in progress, and then do the search. Definitely do not ever "just drive away" - if you refuse the search, let them give you whatever ticket they want to give you and ask permission to drive away, and only leave if they give you permission.

Reality: The police do all kinds of "profiling" (i.e. they stop black people more than white people, they stop cars like yours) in traffic, and if you refuse a search they can simply tackle you / haul you out of the car, do the search anyway, and proceed from there (e.g. charge you with possession or trafficking depending on the amount). They can also throw on some extra charges for good measure, since you've annoyed them (e.g. they could claim you uttered a death threat to the officer).  It happens ALL THE TIME. See above for what recourse you have in that situation (essentially none unless you push the case to a trial, where the charges may or may not be thrown out on the basis of an illegal search depending on how convincingly the police lie in their testimony).

My advice: No disrespect to ShardI, but in my opinion making it known to the police that you are recording them is quite possibly going to antagonize/escalate the situation. It won't end well. If you can start recording without letting them know you're recording, i.e. just put the phone down on the seat beside you or something, that is perfectly legal and the recording could be used later if necessary. Your very best bet is to not draw heat to yourself by driving a suspicious vehicle. However, I was 21 once and I remember how much fun it was to drive around in cool cars. So, the second best thing you can do is tell your friends to quit putting you in danger by leaving their shit in your car. And enforce it (e.g. if you catch someone doing it, ban them from your car for a week or a month or whatever it takes for them to get the message). Sounds harsh maybe, but honestly if you want to drive around in a vehicle that attracts police attention, and you don't want to make damn sure that there's nothing illegal in there, there's not much anyone other than Lady Luck can do to help. The best thing you can do is allow the search and have nothing for them to find.

Hope that's helpful :)
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: kst1791 on December 20, 2012, 03:27 pm
Sorry, forgot to respond to "what's he gonna do" when the camera is recording:

Cops are known to grab cameras / phones / recording devices from your fingers, step on them and destroy them, and then really start to go crazy on your ass. That's what. Again, no disrespect to ShardInspector, that's just what I know.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: Heizenberg on December 20, 2012, 06:55 pm
Yes I am located in Canada, well as you said, at a traffic stop if they "smell" something then I can understand, but me personally I never smoke in my car or drink so there would be no reason for any police officer to smell anything coming out of my car, I don't even smoke cigarettes in my car neither do any of my friends.

If that is the case, do they really have any reason to pull me over if my car is not wreaking of any weird smell? I do carry drugs in my car, I am a distributor to say the least and I do meet up with my clients for weed up to an ounce, anything more than an ounce I usually use the subways since in the carts there are never any police, usually the cart I go in is empty and there are no cameras within which I find weird but it's worked for years. With an ounce or less on my person as long as it's in a bag I figure I can just claim personal use.

So pretty much, if I never have any suspicious smelling coming out of my car and I am not violating any laws do they still have the right to search? It would be nice to be able to say I don't consent to any searches of my vehicle since that is where I keep anything I transport, but I never have anything on my person ever.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: kst1791 on December 20, 2012, 07:28 pm
Heizenberg:

OK, I hear you. This is different from "my friends sometimes accidentally leave things in my car". The following is advice that will cost money, but one might think of it as a "cost of doing business" expense that you can either invest in or not, whatever you prefer, depending on your risk tolerance. In my view, distributing in a heat-seeking vehicle is pretty risky. (But again I know what it's like to be 21 and want to drive a hot car.)

They do not have a legal right to search your car unless they either have a warrant or have reasonable grounds to believe that there is a crime in progress and evidence is in your car. The fact that you decline to consent to a search of your vehicle is not, in and of itself, sufficient grounds to believe there is a crime in progress. The fact that you have a broken tail-light is grounds to stop you, but not grounds to search you or your car. If the police followed the law, legally you have a right to decline the search and if they don't have grounds, they must let you go.

HOWEVER!

If I was in your situation I would do two things:
1) I would get to know a good lawyer, get him/her on retainer, and have him/her on speed dial / text message so that if you get pulled over the lawyer can be on hand asap. Politely refuse the search request, and hope your lawyer shows up quickly. There's no guarantee the cops will let you call a lawyer in a timely way once they've got you stopped, so make the call if you think you are about to be stopped or while you're waiting for the cop to get to your window. Don't make it obvious - dial from your lap and use the speakerphone. The cops are a lot less likely to violate your rights if a lawyer is present. Friends they could care less about since it's always going to be their word against the cops, but police do tend to mind their Ps and Qs when a lawyer is present. Shitty but true.
2) When stopped, start recording. Do not let them know you are recording. Politely refuse the search, and if they go ape-shit and violate your rights and search anyways, at least you'll have a record of it so that any evidence they find cannot be used against you.

Hope that helps.
Title: Re: Law and reality in Canada for Canadians
Post by: Heizenberg on December 20, 2012, 09:07 pm
That helped answer some questions in my head, appreciate the detailed responses.

Thank you very much!

When I get pulled over I'll just auto-record each time and if they ask to search when I know I haven't done anything and politely refuse a search of my car, and if they want to search my persons I'll say I refuse any searches and just assume they'll pat me down but if they go in my pockets I'm just gonna ask for their badge number and file a complaint since apparently if they get enough complaints over their career, they get laid off or something, not sure if holds true though