Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: eleusis on July 17, 2012, 02:08 am
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Lots of folk asking what the difference is over on the ketamine vendors thread, so here it is!
Feel free to add or correct, I know there's loads more info on the subject out there!
Most ketamine is racemic, i.e. it is composed of equal parts S/(+) and R/(-) ketamine. The (+) isomer of ketamine is more potent than the (-) isomer. It also seems that (+) ketamine would be superior as a psychedelic tool, for a number of reasons. Some facts/differences worth noting: In a study which used male adults, the amount of ketamine needed for total anaesthesia was ~271 mg (+) ketamine vs ~409 mg racemic ketamine. [1] (+) ketamine is generally considered to be approx. 2-3 times more potent than (-) ketamine.[3] (+) ketamine is cleared from the body in HALF the time it takes for racemic ketamine. The clearance of (-) ketamine takes only slightly longer than racemic ketamine.[1] (-) ketamine significantly inhibits the clearance of (+) ketamine. This means that if you have pure (+) ketamine, after you come out of a k-hole, the aftereffects of the k will wear off more quickly than they would if you had done racemic ketamine.[1] (+) ketamine inhibits the dopamine transporter 8 times more potently than (-) ketamine.[2] However, application of S(+)-ketamine was associated with a remarkably smoother emergence period, a profound postoperative analgesia, a more rapid recovery of cerebral functions, and a greater preference by the study persons. The incidence of psychotomimetic phenomena appeared to be negligibly less after S(+)-ketamine in comparison to racemic ketamine, but their quality was described as far less unpleasant. Clinical use of S(+)-ketamine administered at one-half of the usual dose is thus not only associated with a reduction of undesirable adverse effects without altering ketamine's anaesthetic and analgesic potency, but also offers distinctive improvements due to the reduced drug load. Moreover, increasing experimental evidence supports a remarkable neuroprotective effect of S(+)-ketamine, which may become a promising drug for new therapeutic approaches to neuroprotection.[3] It was found that (S)-ketamine binds with a 3-4 time higher affinity to the PCP binding site of the NMDA receptor than (R)-ketamine, and that at these concentrations (R)-ketamine interacts also weakly with the sigma receptor sites, where (S)-ketamine binds only negligibly....R)-ketamine did not produce psychotic symptoms, but a state of relaxation. The (S)-ketamine-induced metabolic hyperfrontality appears to parallel similar metabolic findings in acute psychotic schizophrenic patients and encourages further investigations of glutamatergic disturbances in schizophrenia. This leads me to believe that the psychedelic effects of racemic ketamine are being produced by the (+) isomer. This would further lead me to conclude that pure (+) ketamine would be more psychedelic in its subjective effects -- as well as less sedating (as noted in the study). [4] With sub-anaesthetic doses of ketamine in humans, 50% of the test subjects who took racemic ketamine experienced anterograde amnesia (could not remember portions of the k-experience) , while only 8% of those who took (+) ketamine experienced amnesia. This means that your ability to recall a ketamine trip would be greatly improved if you were taking pure (+) ketamine. [5] Subjective mood was judged by the volunteers to be significantly better after S-(+)-ketamine, and volunteers found S-(+)-ketamine to be more acceptable than racemic ketamine. The frequency of dreams was the same after both drugs. No unpleasant dreams were reported after S-(+)-ketamine, but one of the volunteers who received racemic ketamine had uncomfortable dreams. It seems that (+) ketamine has a distinct positive vibe to it, unlike racemic ketamine which is more neutral (or even negative) in its psychological effects. [6] [1] Ihmsen H, Geisslinger G, Schuttler J. Stereoselective pharmacokinetics of ketamine: R(-)-ketamine inhibits the elimination of S(+)-ketamine. Clin Pharmacol Ther. 2001 Nov;70(5):431-8. [2] Nishimura M, Sato K. Ketamine stereoselectively inhibits rat dopamine transporter. Neurosci Lett. 1999 Oct 22;274(2):131-4. [3] Himmelseher S, Pfenninger E.The clinical use of S-(+)-ketamine--a determination of its place Anasthesiol Intensivmed Notfallmed Schmerzther. 1998 Dec;33(12):764-70. [4] Vollenweider FX, Leenders KL, Oye I, Hell D, Angst J. Differential psychopathology and patterns of cerebral glucose utilisation produced by (S)- and (R)-ketamine in healthy volunteers using positron emission tomography (PET). Eur Neuropsychopharmacol. 1997 Feb;7(1):25-38. [5] Pfenninger E, Baier C, Claus S, Hege G. Psychometric changes as well as analgesic action and cardiovascular adverse effects of ketamine racemate versus s-(+)-ketamine in subanesthetic doses Anaesthesist. 1994 Nov;43 Suppl 2:S68-75. [6]Doenicke A, Kugler J, Mayer M, Angster R, Hoffmann P.[Ketamine
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It should be worth noting that very few pharm labs market pure S+ isomer ketamine. The only one I know of is Ketanest-S (parke-davis).
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There is vendors here on the road offering the S+ isomer presumably from custom synthesis and most K users don't know what the fuck this means so I thought this would provide some insight!
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Very interesting read..
I'm quite confident that anyone selling S+ ketamine on here is probably lieing about it..although I would love to try it.
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Very interesting read..
I'm quite confident that anyone selling S+ ketamine on here is probably lieing about it..although I would love to try it.
Maybe although it has been available for years on a certain private forum and it is and always has been the real deal!
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Very interesting read..
I'm quite confident that anyone selling S+ ketamine on here is probably lieing about it..although I would love to try it.
I'm working on producing K clandestinely like I do with my Meph, I'd like to have S+Isomer but if it's racemic I wont be fibbin about it.
Might be worth talking about how isomers work and why they matter here too. Basically different isomers bind to the receptors of your brain in different ways. Some do it more effectively than other and some don't do it at all. Take Cocaine for example, I THINK (correct me if I am wrong) it has 4 isomers but only 1 is active when taken so if you took one of the other 3 you'd still be taking cocaine but it would have zero effect. All drugs have an optimal isomer but some are very hard to make or require stereochemistry to convert the inactive isomer to the active one.
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Very interesting read..
I'm quite confident that anyone selling S+ ketamine on here is probably lieing about it..although I would love to try it.
I'm working on producing K clandestinely like I do with my Meph, I'd like to have S+Isomer but if it's racemic I wont be fibbin about it.
Might be worth talking about how isomers work and why they matter here too. Basically different isomers bind to the receptors of your brain in different ways. Some do it more effectively than other and some don't do it at all. Take Cocaine for example, I THINK (correct me if I am wrong) it has 4 isomers but only 1 is active when taken so if you took one of the other 3 you'd still be taking cocaine but it would have zero effect. All drugs have an optimal isomer but some are very hard to make or require stereochemistry to convert the inactive isomer to the active one.
When do you plan to actually produce the ketamine? I take it that you're going to selling it here, if so I'll definitely give it a go.. should be fairly cheap to produce as it can be bought in India for pennies lol.
I'm a bit clueless when it comes to the isomers and the effects they have on the brain. Not really into the chemistry of drugs, only interested in getting highly fucked up on them ;D
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Production will hopefully begin by the end of this month, availability within 30-60 days from start if nothing goes wrong.
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Production will hopefully begin by the end of this month, availability within 30-60 days from start if nothing goes wrong.
Best of luck to you!
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Yeah lets hope it comes good. :)
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I am just with this drug KET a few weeks and I like it.
so subscribe this thread ...