Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: coveney on November 19, 2011, 07:11 am

Title: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: coveney on November 19, 2011, 07:11 am
I have 3 successful purchases on Silk Road so far, all of which went perfectly.

I just tried to make a purchase, and the seller is demanding that I finalize BEFORE they will ship my purchase.  This seems sketchy as hell to me, and I won't do it.

Am I wrong, is it reasonable for sellers to short-circuit the escrow system like this?
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: microRNA on November 19, 2011, 10:51 am
Sounds sketchy to me too, and you are absolutely not being unreasonable. The entire point of SR is the escrow, and why pay the fees if you are just going to take the risk anyway... may as well go hand your money to the nearest homeless guy and send him into the projects to find you something. I think you did the right thing by refusing because in my opinion all these people finalizing early are kinda eroding the foundation of SR. Granted you are still new, but you should have enough credibility to be entitled to escrow. The only time I would consider releasing funds early would be for a highly established and reputable vendor as a favor due to the huge amount of money they have stuck in escrow, and even then it would only be after the package has already been reported as shipped.

Awesome job using your head and not risking your money! Good luck.
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: rodger909 on November 19, 2011, 11:59 am
it kind of works both ways but i would not buy anything outwith SR because if u are ripped off then your able to at least leave some feedback on there sellers page.

if i was a seller i would prefer not to use escrow and if u didn't like that well that would be your loss.
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: brainstew on November 19, 2011, 05:36 pm
I asked a similar question in another thread and didn't get a reply yet.

Some sellers will require you to finalize early if you don't have "enough" successful transactions yet. I understand that as there are buyers out there scamming and the seller is looking for some protection. But of course the topic is always being hotly debated here in one thread or another. The escrow system is losing its power as there are more and more people finalizing early for one reason or another.

I have to think I would agree with one of two ways of approaching this, both ideas being proposed in other threads (just so you know I'm not taking credit for the ideas). One is that new buyers signing up for SR pay a small fee to get in. I'm not opposed to that and would have done it but what size fee would keep a scammer away? How much risk to reward you know? The second idea, which I think is better, is to keep buyers to a small transaction at first until they have established credibility. I suppose that would be the sellers job to watch that but I think this would work fine.

And maybe there is some combination of the two that would work. Again it's risk vs reward. What is the scammer willing to risk in order to rip some one off?

Well back to the original topic, I've had 3 successful transactions as well. I'm wondering how many successful transactions it takes before the sellers that require early finalization from a noob won't ask any  more? I suppose it's a case of ymmv though.
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: MagicMan on November 19, 2011, 06:37 pm
I have had 15 transactions in my months on SR, 13 of them were in escrow and were flawless, 1 I finalized early and package never came, it was for like 15 bucks so I didn't feel like complaining (netherlands are a terrible place to have a package shipped from), and 1 out of escrow that went flawless though I generally wouldn't recommend this route.

Tl:dr, always go through escrow because it's the safest way
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: rusty on November 19, 2011, 08:43 pm
I finalized early only one time and, of course, the package never came and I had no recourse but low feedback, but the previously high rating (98) had already tanked (78), so it was clear a bunch of users got hit. On one of my current transactions, I was asked to finalize early which I DID NOT do and now that vendor is awol (Italian Pilot). I'm already in Resolution so I expect I'll get a full refund.

Don't do it!

rusty
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: phubaiblues on November 20, 2011, 02:36 am
A buyer finalizing early for a very trusted seller is one thing...being asked to do it, is a whole different thing.  Just know one thing: you give up *all* your rights if it goes wrong.  You have absolutely no recourse to getting your money returned. 

I find that more and more buyers are *not* willing to give up their rights, and I think vendors will go back to the fundamentals upon which SR is based, if enough people stand strong about this.  They came here knowing it was escrow based, so it's not some unhappy change for them.   Finalizing early should be a happy surprise to the occasional good vendor, not an expected part of the transaction. 

I finalized early for IP, unlike Rusty...so my money's gone.   
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: rusty on November 20, 2011, 05:09 am
I finalized early for IP, unlike Rusty...so my money's gone.

Sorry to hear it... My Resolution came due today and SR promptly refunded all my money.

rusty
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: phubaiblues on November 22, 2011, 04:52 am
A buyer finalizing early for a very trusted seller is one thing...being asked to do it, is a whole different thing.  Just know one thing: you give up *all* your rights if it goes wrong.  You have absolutely no recourse to getting your money returned. 

I find that more and more buyers are *not* willing to give up their rights, and I think vendors will go back to the fundamentals upon which SR is based, if enough people stand strong about this.  They came here knowing it was escrow based, so it's not some unhappy change for them.   Finalizing early should be a happy surprise to the occasional good vendor, not an expected part of the transaction. 

I finalized early for IP, unlike Rusty...so my money's gone.

It is entirely up to sellers rules and the confidence  a buyer has in said source. 

Let us remember, many sellers started out small and settling for 50% on the BTC because you extended credit to new or shady buyer, is simply bad business and set small players way back.  We have requested about 24 PF's (pre-finalizations). 

EVERYONE single member received their orders.  We  treat these orders NO different that any other order.

Well, the more I read vendor's problems, the more I realize that 'one size fits all' just won't work.  People like you aren't the problem, and should be able to have more flexibility in their listings.  Bad buyers have just about ensured that we can't just go back to all escrow, all the time.  Lately I've just been asking more for a way to ensure that new vendors stay in escrow until a certain point.  I don't know where that point needs to be, but even a few months, plus a certain amount of transactions, would get rid of a lot/most of the scammers.  Besides, at least in opiates, I don't find that new sellers have all that much of a problem with escrow: they know it is part of how they build their reputaion, and simply ask that if it is a new buyer, that they either promise to finalize early, or, at least contact seller so they can work something out.

Perhaps there is some middle ground here, where sellers with good reputations have the freedom they deserve, at the same time making it at least a lot more difficult for the scam artists who come here and steal, hiding under the umbrella provided by good vendors.  If they had to stay in escrow, then buying an account would no longer be a good value to them. 
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: RapidImprovement on November 22, 2011, 05:22 am
You should NEVER be forced to finalize early. If the seller is demanding it, that is a no go.

-RI
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: chronicpain on November 22, 2011, 07:28 pm
I am a firm believer in the escrow system. but I do ask buyers to finalize early only if they feel comfortable doing so. I also have a limit that i will ship in escrow, that will limit my loss if it went to resolution and I ended up only getting half my money. 

That being said, Escrow is your friend..Especially for new buyers and new vendors..
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: ViktorVaughn on November 23, 2011, 09:07 am
I have had a different experience as a seller. I was scammed once BIG TIME (nearly $300) and then small-time by another buyer. I wish like hell there was a system that ensured safety on both ends, but until that happens, I have to ask that low stat/high refund rate buyers finalize early.

I will certainly change that policy once I get high rollin', but at this stage, I can't afford to get nickle and dimed out of business.

Most all of my new buyers understand the risk that is being taken and simply finalize early. I keep in constant contact with all of them- akin to handholding them through the process. I make sure to keep a strong presence here on the forums and in the chat. I also have a few very reputable buyers and sellers that will vouch for me.


So, until SR develops a scamproof system for both sides, this is how it's gotta be. It is always the buyers choice NOT to make a purchase at all.

I'm sorry to everyone that has been scammed by the bottom-feeding sketchers. I know how it feels and it really fucking sucks.
Title: Re: newbie: i've been asked to pre-finalize a transaction
Post by: PaythePiper on November 23, 2011, 03:16 pm
I really don't think many buyers understand what us sellers have gone through and put up with to finally put our foot down and demand that sellers finalize early for either high priced items or for
New Buyers.

I've been selling on SR for almost 2 months and I do my damnedest to keep a good rep and I'm really proud of it. But unfortunately part of that rep had to be bought out of a blackmailers fingertips.

For the first three weeks here I thought I would be the "cool" seller and didn't require any pre-finalization. Boy was that a bad idea. I'd say in 3 week I lost about $500 in bribes to pay for BS complaints that were almost funny they were so bad, and to bribe my way out of a 1/5 feedback because the seller never received their package (which I always know is Bullshit because I have access to the return addresses mailbox) and to this day not one single item has been "returned to sender".

So finally after losing at least $500 those first three weeks I said screw this and I now require any "newbie" to finalize early, has horrible return rates and anyone that is purchasing a high priced item.

I really don't care if someone doesn't like it. If they don't like it they can go to someone else who likes to get scammed.

I feel you buyers, and understand your point of view (because you are the legit buyers on here) but from a sellers point of view I think you have it all wrong.

We have to protect ourselves from these scammers. I have a hard enough time keeping away feedback scammers who slip through the cracks.

Saying that I would say  98% of buyers are totally legit. It's that damn 2% that mess it up for the rest of you.

Anyways I love this place and think it's the best I dead since sliced bread!

PaythePiper