Silk Road forums
Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: dudeguy551 on April 15, 2012, 04:32 pm
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I use to work for the united parcel service, not to be confused with the USPS. This is the brown one, but I have been told the operations are very similar but the USPS operates on a smaller scale, usually handling mostly LETTERS. (put packages on accident, reason for editing)
Let me walk you through the process of an envelope being sent at UPS and you can extrapolate to alter your shipping methods if need be.
1) Letter gets picked up from the box, sorted by hand and placed into what is called a "Smalls bag". It is a nylon bag about 3ftx3ft and will scar your hands up if they are too dry.
2) This bag is filled with items that are all going to the same sorting facility, no dogs are present at this point.
3) The bag makes its way to your local sorting facility where the planes and trucks reside.
(After this point the dogs are present but are not taken to every area and sometimes, not even used for a whole day)
4) The bag is scanned, opened and placed on a rack so the employee doesn't have to hold a 70lb bag while he manually scans every individual letter and puts it in one of up to 10 different shoots which feed the letter into another person who then puts it in another nylon bag.
5) This nylon bag is then placed on a conveyor belt that runs the length of the entire facility so that bags need not be carried or driven to their loading destination.
6) The bags are sorted by a machine and sent to the appropriate feeder/ULD (large 12x9x9 canister for airplanes)
7) The can is loaded until full, at this point is where the dogs usually find and detect a package, it is easier for the police officers to run the dogs past an already filled container as opposed to running them by every lane. ALTHOUGH on occasion I have had dogs come by me while UNLOADING cans but this had only happened twice over a 2 and a half year period of working there 5 days a week.
8 ) The can is sealed and on it's way to it's plane. Your package is safe until it reaches it's destination where it will again be sorted, by hand, by unloaders and placed onto a delivery truck. Sometimes these final facilities, dependent on the area you live in, will have more dogs that go into each delivery truck where the packages are open and not protected by the nylon bags or stuck under a pile of boxes filled with other non-illict herbs, fish, reptiles, cakes etc.
***NOTE*** During late spring, summer and early autumn, the planes cargo compartments reach a VERY high temperature. I'm not sure of the exact temperature but they are flying above clouds, receive direct UV exposure and the cargo hold has little to no air flow. This will cause anything that isn't AT LEAST triple sealed, to begin to REEK. Anyone who has made hash or cannabutter will know that when bud is heated slowly it begins to reek. There have been times when I have opened a ULD (canister for a plane) and literally been knocked back by how SKUNKY it smelled. One guy I worked with was actually able to find a package with an oz of bud in it, opened it, and took it home. He was later fired for stealing but UPS did not know what it was. I have personally held boxes, turned to put them on conveyor and a wiff of budd will edge itself out of the crevices of a box. I let them go on but not everyone appreciates bud like I do and many people have turned in packages. Turned in packages by UPS are usually allowed to be delivered and are the last stop for the driver. Where the driver will hand a police office a uniform, the package and allow him to walk up to your doorstep and ask you to sign for the package at which point he will arrest you. They have already inspected this package and know its contents. This mostly pertains to shipping bud.
A lot of people have stated, do not sign for any packages you order off SR. Take the loss not the jail time.
ADVICE:
If it is over an oz, I'd recommend washing the outside of the vacuum bag in an environment where bud is not being smoked.
EDITED: Sorry for spreading misinformation, after educating myself further about the USPS, they WILL dust for fingerprints if you ship a package which has been opened due to suspicion/x-rays, remove all finger prints! Wear doctors gloves when handling all shipping equipment.
AND MOST OF ALL*************** BE CAREFUL WITH THE TAPE!********************
This may sound silly but having shipped a TON of items of non-illicit content, the packaging tape is basically a finger print recording device. Don't handle it without gloves on, I know it's hard to get off gloves, or anything that isn't your hands but oh well.
If shipping a large amount in a box, seal the box properly. Using 2 layers of packaging tape is not suspect and is not taught as a suspicious package procedure. Suspicious package procedures are as follows:
1) Silly names. EX. Joe Bob, Mr. Wang, Cheech and Chong etc etc etc etc.
2) Odd markings on a package
3) Inproper weight put on the package. If you print your own label and said that it is 10lbs and it's actually only -1lb and someone notices it on the box, there is a 20% chance they will report it which will cause a supervisor to visually inspect it, put his nose up to it, shake it around etc. If he oks it, which I have seen them do 90% of the time, you are ok.
4) Seal BOTH sides of the box BUT only seal one side of the letter. The glue for an envelope is commonly thought as not secure enough by people who sell normal products. Feel free to use packaging tape around both ends of the envelope VERY LIGHTLY, one to two runs over is enough.
5) Make your product stable in the box, when someone picks it up and its light as feather they can feel a tennis ball sized object bouncing around, that is suspect. Take the time to use old spam mail, old magazines and roll them up and place them on a bottom layer, put your package on top of that, then put several more layers above and around it. This will cause the package to not shake when rattled, is cheaper then packing peanuts and better then tossing those old magazines.
6) The only time I ever saw a police dog tear open a package and it had a many layered vacuum sealed bag, the dog completely ignored the bag once he ripped the box apart, he was only interested in the box. Reason? The dog couldn't smell the weed in the vacuum seal but smelled some residue on the box itself! Be sure to pack your items in a clean environment. Do not smoke around your packing materials and do not pack in the room where you hold the bud. Vacuum the bud in one room, clean your hands, and package it in the box as described above.
The dogs they use for packing facilities are near retirement age dogs, the good ones are left to be used by designated targets of the DEA and for local law enforcement. They are sometimes not the best sniffers but have an experienced nose. Take precaution.
I have ONCE seen DEA jackets at UPS. They know what they are there for. At this point the vendor is already suspect and his packages have been watched for some time by local law enforcement. All his shipments are flagged but, legally, can only be opened with reasonable cause and the only legal way is actually have evidence of the content (they don't) or the dog finds something inside it, at which point they open it, deliver it, and press the buyer into giving up information.
The last paragraph I stated is a very rare occurence and the person must not have been packaging their material well enough.
I later asked the guy who stole the weed how he found it so easily. He told me the guy wrapped it like 10 grocery store bags and used like a whole roll of packaging tape to bind it altogether. This is NOT a suitable replacement for vacuum sealing.
--->5/25/2012<--
DO NOT DO THIS! I HAVE READ OF A COUPLE NEW VENDORS SELLING AND SHIPPING VIA UPS USING GROCERY BAGS. YOU WILL GET YOUR CUSTOMER CAUGHT! IF ANY FEEDBACK FOR A BUYER STATES THIS, DO NOT BUY! THEY WILL CONTROL SHIP TO YOUR HOUSE AND MAKE YOU VERY UNCOMFORTABLE/ARRESTED.
I hope you all get some use out of this, please feel free to ask me any questions, I am here to help.
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Interesting read. What about pills and powders? I would imagine the same precautions taken, just wouldn't have to worry about a human smelling the reek of valium etc., just a dog.
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Yes, the dogs are trained to smell these as well.
Do not place them alone in the envelope. I know many vendors have secret ways of hiding the contents of a bag inside the envelope itself.
If anyone does this, do not put the pills in there without protection. One layer of vacuum sealing should be sufficient as the odor of a prescription pill is far less when compared to the pungent smell of bud. Double vacuum seal large orders or for better safety, make it commonplace to double seal all pill orders. I have never seen or heard of a dog ripping open a box and finding pills but I assure you it has happened.
The dogs usually pick up on large shipments, as before I left they had a huge haul. Some vendor had been shipping kilos of cocaine inside the rubber layering of truck tires. They confiscated over $500,000 of cocaine. They always underestimate the value of drugs so I'd say it was at least double that. They also showed the bags the of cocaine and they were not vacuum sealed multiple times, were not put in opaque packaging.
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Great post!
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thanks for that. Even though I am not in the US I suspect our postal sorting centers work the same way.
Is it standard for dogs to tear open shit in the US or is this a rare event?
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Great post. Given all of this information along with the 'Profiling postal packaging' post from yesterday, Vendors should be able to increase there success rates significantly.
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Great post ! much thanks to the OP !
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great post.. nice info.. :)
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Great post! I noticed that was a big mistake when I started vending. I would package all of my edible orders where I package all of my weed orders and I noticed the residue would get on some of the boxes which is a big red flag. I now clean the area before and after packaging to make sure no weed residue gets on anything.
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Woah, insane info here. All of this inside info needs to be stickied somewhere.
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thanks for that. Even though I am not in the US I suspect our postal sorting centers work the same way.
Is it standard for dogs to tear open shit in the US or is this a rare event?
It is very rare, normally the dog is under control and only locates a package and the police office will riffle through until the dog barks. He will put the package up to the dogs nose and he will growl if it's bad and do nothing if it's not the right package.
This dog was older and once a drug dog begins to dismember something it is safest for everyone to stay back. The police officer tried his safe word but I assume the dog had trouble understanding what with the 3 floors of heavy machinery, conveyor belts and the floor made out of wheels, literally.
Great post! I noticed that was a big mistake when I started vending. I would package all of my edible orders where I package all of my weed orders and I noticed the residue would get on some of the boxes which is a big red flag. I now clean the area before and after packaging to make sure no weed residue gets on anything.
Yes, exactly. The dog does not need more then a few milligrams worth of residue on the box in order to detect it. This is an estimate but a few milligrams of residue is almost invisible to the enemy eye. This is why I recommend vacuum sealing, then cleaning the vacuum seals, either one layer at a time or only the outer layer, based on the level of precaution you wish to use.
If possible, buy a box of disposable gloves, similar to the ones at a hospital. This way you can merely slip on some gloves when you get ready to package.
NEVER use masking agents. Aim for a smell-FREE box, drug dogs are made to respond to certain types of concentrated cologne, food stuffs such as coffee.
I would recommend reading more on drug dog training before packaging ANY dried herbs with your actual herb. I know that lavender is a very smelly flower and used to help mask the smell of growing plants.
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This is probably the 5th thread I've posted this in, sorry if you've already read it but I'm trying to spread the word
DO NOT USE PLASTIC BAGGING FOR SEALING DRUGS, use metal laminate MBBs
DO NOT BOTHER WITH VACUUM SEALS, leave enough air in to check for pinholes, these are of much greater concern than absolute pressure differential.
trust me on this one, i'm a retired aerospace engineer and I know a thing or two about packaging & contamination control...
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this whole vacuum seal in plastic bagging is poor practice, do not bother with vacuum sealers, do not use food-grade plastic bagging or any simple plastic bagging for that matter.
the slight differential in air pressure you impart on your packaging will not help anything. Diffusion of the organic molecules responsible for scent is based on the difference in partial pressure or vapor pressure of those scent molecules, not the absolute pressure.
even if you have a very strong vacuum (<10torr) there will still be much more volatile organics inside the packaging than out... it is that gradient that controls the direction of diffusion. the diffusion current will cause those molecules to flow outward. I know it seems counter-intuitive but that is how it works.
Food grade plastic and vacuum sealers will control scents well enough to get past a human nose, but most plastics are permeable enough that a dog or an IMS gas sample scanner will easily pick up many drugs.
If you're bagging to control emission of compromising scents use a metal laminate moisture barrier bag, don't vacuum seal, instead leave air in so you can put in a bucket of water and squeeze and check for leaks, if there's no leaks clean the bag to deal with the surface contamination, maintain it at a molecularly clean state as you package it and ship.
if you're buying a heat sealer, find an industrial grade one with at least a 5mm wide seal line. Just buy one mail-order
I don't know how prolific IMS scanners are for customs to use on US mail but ever since the whole "mail bombs to america thing" I'd bet they're scanning more and more incoming mail and possibly domestic mail as well. IMS scanners aren't as good as a dog's nose, but they're not far off, and even if they were originally deployed for explosives only the detection of drugs could be accomplished with nothing more than a software update.
Good luck
Bob
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Yes, exactly. The dog does not need more then a few milligrams worth of residue on the box in order to detect it. This is an estimate but a few milligrams of residue is almost invisible to the enemy eye.
Dogs can detect residue that's flat out invisible. Don't underestimate this.
Just an example:
hxxp://www.csst.org/residual_scent.html
Anyone who's housetrained a puppy who goes back to the same spot despite aggressive cleaning.. and then the next puppy who goes to the spot the first pup used... might be familiar with the issue.
I don't know about packaging per se, but when scent packs are prepped for utility dog training, it's like packing chemo - smocks, double/triple gloves when handling the smelly stuff, then strip layers off before handling the outer packaging.
NEVER use masking agents. Aim for a smell-FREE box, drug dogs are made to respond to certain types of concentrated cologne, food stuffs such as coffee. Though I do not think they are trained to decipher the difference between marijuana and dried lavender or other assorted herbs.
I would recommend reading more on drug dog training before packaging ANY dried herbs with your actual herb. I know that lavender is a very smelly flower and used to help mask the smell of growing plants.
What?
Yes, of course they can distinguish between cannabis and lavender. They smell as different as cannabis and chocolate. Even WE can distinguish between cannabis and lavender.
You say NEVER use masking agents and then suggest lavender. I don't understand.
There's no such thing as "masking" scent for dogs. Including other herbs. It's just "another" scent.
I've never trained a drug dog, just utility scent for pets to keep them from eating the couch out of boredom. I wasn't aware the forensic dogs were trained for certain types of concentrated cologne or foodstuffs. Everything I've read says they're trained on specific drugs/explosives only, as a hit on cologne or coffee wouldn't be sufficient grounds for opening a box. Any other information you have on this would be great!
Thanks for the UPS info, very interesting. :)
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This is probably the 5th thread I've posted this in, sorry if you've already read it but I'm trying to spread the word
DO NOT USE PLASTIC BAGGING FOR SEALING DRUGS, use metal laminate MBBs
DO NOT BOTHER WITH VACUUM SEALS, leave enough air in to check for pinholes, these are of much greater concern than absolute pressure differential.
trust me on this one, i'm a retired aerospace engineer and I know a thing or two about packaging & contamination control...
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this whole vacuum seal in plastic bagging is poor practice, do not bother with vacuum sealers, do not use food-grade plastic bagging or any simple plastic bagging for that matter.
the slight differential in air pressure you impart on your packaging will not help anything. Diffusion of the organic molecules responsible for scent is based on the difference in partial pressure or vapor pressure of those scent molecules, not the absolute pressure.
even if you have a very strong vacuum (<10torr) there will still be much more volatile organics inside the packaging than out... it is that gradient that controls the direction of diffusion. the diffusion current will cause those molecules to flow outward. I know it seems counter-intuitive but that is how it works.
Food grade plastic and vacuum sealers will control scents well enough to get past a human nose, but most plastics are permeable enough that a dog or an IMS gas sample scanner will easily pick up many drugs.
If you're bagging to control emission of compromising scents use a metal laminate moisture barrier bag, don't vacuum seal, instead leave air in so you can put in a bucket of water and squeeze and check for leaks, if there's no leaks clean the bag to deal with the surface contamination, maintain it at a molecularly clean state as you package it and ship.
if you're buying a heat sealer, find an industrial grade one with at least a 5mm wide seal line. Just buy one mail-order
I don't know how prolific IMS scanners are for customs to use on US mail but ever since the whole "mail bombs to america thing" I'd bet they're scanning more and more incoming mail and possibly domestic mail as well. IMS scanners aren't as good as a dog's nose, but they're not far off, and even if they were originally deployed for explosives only the detection of drugs could be accomplished with nothing more than a software update.
Good luck
Bob
Ok, so if oxygen (a much smaller molecule than whatever dogs are smelling) is not diffusing in significant amounts into the double 10^whatever polymer chain container while vacuum sealed true should be vice versa for lager molecules; wouldn't a fairly large organic molecule have more of a chance of getting through a stretched out by higher absolute pressure of gasses(as in aircraft cargo bay at 10km) same container? There are some really good plastic bags out there, I think the point here is not to be cheap
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Fizzy is quite correct, a dog can detect ridiculously small quantities of volatiles. Their sense of smell is many thousands of times better than you or I. They can also very easily discriminate between smells, even when one is much stronger than the other.
The human brain is overall larger than that of a dog, but the area of brain dedicated to analyzing smells in a dog is more than 40X larger than in a human. Dogs are as much better at smelling than humans, as humans are better at mathematics than dogs.
I think the dog detection thresholds for many organic volatiles are in the range of 200ppt to 2ppb. So if we use 1ppb (to make math easier) that means that in a single 10mL sniff of air which weighs about 10mg a dog can detect 0.01 nanogram of volatiles. The volatile organic content of drugs varies and the outgass rate is VERY temperature dependent but if we use something like 0.01% evaporation rate per hour then from 1miligram of surface contamination you get 1mg * .0001 = 1e-7g/hr = 100ng/hr = 1.67ng/min. And that scent vapor will just linger around your package and build up unless there's airflow to blow it away, so 1mg is very easily detected by a dog.
Surface contamination needs to be controlled to a sub-microgram level to ensure you pass a dog sniff test, and this is difficult to do,
here's a tip you can share in other threads:
bag or double-bag your drugs, (use MBB with 5mm+ seal if possible), don't vacuum it, dunk in water & squeeze to check for pinholes, leaks, anything that causes bubbles.
Put bag in dishwasher with detergent & 1 shotglass of bleach. Run hot water power-wash cycle.
while this is going take a shower & scrub with soap & hot water like you got exposed to the ebola virus, put on clean freshly washed clothes.
put on gloves and take out your bags, transport them to a 100% drug free environment like a garage or shed or someplace that has never been exposed to any drugs.
package with packaging materials that have never been exposed to drugs, residue, smoke, etc and were never co-located in any house or vehicle with any quantity of drugs or drug users.
address them, apply postage, and put in a clean plastic bag, transport to mailbox, ship.
Now you can take your gloves off and you can rest assured that you're at low risk of getting detected by the dogs or IMS scanners and you didn't leave any fingerprints.
If I missed anything feel free to correct me.
For those of you with dogs at home, go forth and test this! play the "find the hidden ziploc bag O pot" game (or coke, heroin, meth, etc), and reward him/her with their favorite treats. Then seal up some weed in food grade bagging, seal another bit of weed in either MBBs or a paper bag in a glass canning jar. Do the same with a couple pieces of popcorn or something (as a control) Do the dishwasher thing then sit the packages in a warm location to simulate riding in a non-AC cargo container for a few days ( time + heat should let the scents slowly permeate through the plastics). Put them out and play "find the hidden pot" see how well it does. I'd love to know how the different dog breeds do.
Unbound: stretching a plastic bag can deform the structure of it and will eventually cause microcracks which leak. The behaviour when stretched depends a lot on crystal structure of the polymer though. A latex balloon is not terribly crystalline, it is very disordered and has higher porosity and leaks helium at a very high rate and tends to leak more when stretched. A highly crystaline mylar/aluminum laminate ballon (the silver ones) tends to not change much when stretched and tend to have low leakage rates for their contents due to the highly crystalline nature of the aluminum layer. I should also add that cabin pressure of cargo AC tends to be around 2000m or so. There is no such thing as an unpressurized cargo hold on any jetliners. O2 and N2 will easily diffuse through many plastics (depends on solubility, crystallinity, thickness, and temp). If you pull a strong vacuum on a food-grade bag, leave it in a warm place for a few weeks you'll likely begin to notice a relaxation of the vacuum.
Best Regards
Bob
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Bob, those are all solid suggestions. I am pretty sure you can present a lecture or two on polymer crystals and the diffusion flux. The only thing I knew about cargo bays is that my shaving cream popped in my luggage once, so I assumed the pressure was low, so picked a point in the middle. Good packages i have heard about :) are vac sealed in first layer and have air in between the second (and third for really good ones) for the same reasons you were talking about, not too much air, just loose plastic. Its plenty enough to get by for priority shipping of 7 days or less. The dog is not smelling just one package either, one would smell stronger than others, yea, but they all cant be opened. Dog I heard of working once jetted for the handler's doughnuts that were left on the tail gate within the first 30 seconds, was not impressed, especially since there were things at the site, yea it was a practice, and it wasnt a drug dog, but whats a difference? He should be looking for his toy. There is equipment thats supposed to pick up stuff with an unbelievable accuracy, I dont know too much about it, its too accurate for its own good though and pretty expensive. Some stuff out there is flat out fake, and yes some places have bought it, and fail to admit it doesn't work, no matter who tells them what. ppt? isn't that like 10 to the 23rd times 6 or something or is that just 10 to the negative 12th 6 gallon jugs of air?
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^^could someone sticky Bob's post? Because it was awesome.
I've been playing with sealing and scenting methods. I have an elderly collection of utility scent pet dogs around. Basil is a reasonable substitute, I think, so I've been using that - the aerogarden keeps churning it out, and it doesn't raise eyebrows when the pack and I use it at dog club.
(I don't mail anything, but... Look, the dogs are bored, everyone needs a hobby, it was a long winter, it's still too muddy for long runs... and now I'm curious.)
I haven't tried the dishwasher idea. I agree with the rest of the prep/scrub. Maybe not quite full decontamination but, you know, scrubbing harder rarely hurts in these situations...
I have an ignorant question: would the heat/etc of the dishwasher stretch/degrade the packaging? Guess I'll find out!
Next time I fly, I'll have to pre-pack several bags of basil in the luggage. I can come up with a credible explanation.
/threadjack
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Yea dude, heat degrades plastics BIG time, hope its not too late, DONT do it
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listen to bob,even though i've been giving him crap, he seems to have done his homework. A little hot water wont hurt, but extended time in dishwasher night, i dunno, depends on if your packaging is dishwasher safe i guess. And its not about scrubbing harder its about what you scrub with, cannabinoids are best soluble in fats and alcohol(two of the best things in the world, duh), bleach i dunno about its effects on cannabinoid molecules, but it wount hurt, my advice is to start with regular dish soap.
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great post, this needs to be stickied.
+1
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Regarding temperature: the plastics used in most bagging is common thermoplastics such as PE or Nylon or polypropylene. Sometimes you'll encounter exotic materials like polyimide or PEEK but those are generally only used in special applications by the military.
The mass market thermoplastics are generally stable up to the boiling point of water. So a consumer dishwasher won't hurt them at all as most consumer dishwashers operate well below boiling point (to avoid burn lawsuits).
Also, I want to mention that I was recently reminded by another user that pre-made or dumpster acquired MBBs will have a serial number imprinted on the seal line of the bag. If you use one of these for contraband shipments be smart and trim it off and re-seal that edge.
Best Regards
Bob
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What?
Yes, of course they can distinguish between cannabis and lavender. They smell as different as cannabis and chocolate. Even WE can distinguish between cannabis and lavender.
You say NEVER use masking agents and then suggest lavender. I don't understand.
There's no such thing as "masking" scent for dogs. Including other herbs. It's just "another" scent.
I've never trained a drug dog, just utility scent for pets to keep them from eating the couch out of boredom. I wasn't aware the forensic dogs were trained for certain types of concentrated cologne or foodstuffs. Everything I've read says they're trained on specific drugs/explosives only, as a hit on cologne or coffee wouldn't be sufficient grounds for opening a box. Any other information you have on this would be great!
Thanks for the UPS info, very interesting. :)
I did not suggest using lavender. I said I am UNSURE of those masking agents because I was... unsure and to do more research on your own because of my uncertainty. It does not say, USE LAVENDER. Thanks for the extra information and clarifying it to those who may see it as a suggestion to use lavender. I will remove it from the post though to avoid confusion.
Consider this a shameless bump to get more information out there. I recently read two vendors whose feedback from buyers said they were using the UPS and grocery bags to seal their product. While the people above me offer some VERY amazing suggestions for sealing, never use only grocery bags, no matter the amount of layers. Plastic permability or not, the plane cargo hold gets VERY hot while in the air above cloud cover. As well as the semi-trucks cargo holds get upwards of 100degrees. This will degrade your plastic barrier, heat the weed up as if you were cooking it to make an edible and that is a very bad combination of things to happen. Like I stated, a guy I worked with was able to pin point the package as soon as he opened the door. Imagine how easy it would be for a dog to go in and find that package. Just don't do it.
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Great post man...good read..
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Am I so 2000 or aren't oven bags the shit? Tell me why or why not oven bags are not the ONLY way to go? I know all too painfully that vacuum-sealed bags are worthless (they're pourous like a fucking tire for Christ's sake). If you use them you are relying on the law of averages and you WILL get hammered whether it's next week or two years from now. End of. Look up "asymmetrical risk' and decide if it's worth it. Fuck a UPS guy, fuck a self-proclaimed aeronautical genius. This is real life and I'm telling you you WILL catch a charge (or if you're lucky just have your shit jacked and your recipient pressed and threatened by the Feds or even local LE) if you continue to use single, double OR triple bagged vacuum sealed pourous fod bags. Unless you have your own drug dog this whole thread is speculation and wrong. I paid the price already for stupid shit like what's in this thread. There, I said it.
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So say it with your real account?
Or perhaps don't order large quantities that would cause you to get in a ton of trouble. Anything of the quantity that I'm sure you ordered is suspect. As well as ordering through UPS or FEDex at all. This isn't a thread on how to ship through UPS, it's an insider's view on UPS and it's drug related practices and how they may relate to other branches of postal related services.
Also, you never know HOW you got caught as LE is not required to tell you the truth except when you are finally taken to court. It says so in the law, they can say whatever they want to get you to confess or talk.
But thanks for sharing your experience and perhaps someone will believe you when you use an account with some credibility.
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so let me get this straight - you're saying DON'T vacuum seal bags? what do you do then?
I have a few smelly proof bags that can be heat sealed... is that OK?
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so let me get this straight - you're saying DON'T vacuum seal bags? what do you do then?
I have a few smelly proof bags that can be heat sealed... is that OK?
Vacuum sealing is sufficient as per my Opening Post (OP). This is per UPS standards. Most of the packages that are confiscated or turned in by employees are found crushed/improperly sealed and there are grocery bags/garbage bags showing. I mean come on guys... garbage bags?
Vacuum seals may be "porous" when compared to glass or other denser substances but as long as your package doesn't contain a QP of chronic buds or 1000 pills then I'd consider yourself safe, AS LONG AS YOU TAKE NECESSARY precautions as stated by my advice and the advice stated in the postal officers thread that is stickied at the top of this forum. Also look at it like this, the chances of your package being caught by a person over three layers of ever so slightly porous layers over another are slim to none. Under three layers of vacuum seals, it would take several hours of the package being in 100 degree weather for the bag to BEGIN to deteriorate enough to cause a leak that would allow the VACUUM to be broken. And that's just the first layer.
Consider this, hundreds of thousands of packages are wrapped up poorly, shipped by inexperience or busy people, thru USPS all the time. I make it my job to make my packages look as suspicious as possible because I only sell LEGAL items over eBay. I do this so that my post office will one day stop giving a fuck why my nail polishes/collectible ash trays/whatever else are so poorly wrapped.
I find it amusing actually, the thought of an inspector getting all hot and bothered over my package only to open it and find... nail polish. It's part of my personal belief in the balancing system I call "reverse karma". Sometimes the balance must be made, not waited for and this is my way of doing it. ANYWHO, just saying random shit.
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good thread. +1 for OP
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Never thought I'd say I love you to guy named Bob, but I am.
I love you Bob. :)
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Using UPS/Fedex is a stupid Idea to begin with...
Just sayin.
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Using UPS/Fedex is a stupid Idea to begin with...
Just sayin.
Agreed.
USPS is the way to go, just posting the methods of UPS so that it can be used to correlate those of USPS, as most businesses do everything the same way but with their own twist of flair.
UPS has been used to ship VERY large amounts of drugs successfully. UPS was suspected of having moved over 1,000 kilos of coke in one month when they busted truck tires having kilos lined in the tires for shipment. They are uncertain how long it had been going on.
It is used to ship products so I only advise the practices in place so people can be more aware of them. Enjoy :D
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Bump as I still see feedback being left on certain vendor's pages that they use UPS and GROCERY bags (only line of smell protection).
Bad idea. Next day air? Bad idea, stays in the system less, yes, but unless it's PROPERLY sealed (iron bags) then I'd suggest staying away. Vacuum seal bags can degrade in the air (closed cabin being heated directly by the sun with no cloud cover) which can lead to a bust. Since UPS is mostly used for large, quick shipments, I am bumping this for all vendors/buyers.
Good luck!
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Amazing post thank you
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I love you too HardHustle ;)
For the rest of you: If you're just trying to pass a human smell test, food grade heat seal bagging is OK. If you're determined to make it past a dog, get online and buy the 3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBBs, I've reviewed the specs on the commercially available bagging and this seems to be the best value for the $$. Also, 5mm impulse heat sealers are available for less than $150.
Bob
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Good read
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8) bump
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Thank for this thread Dude and for your expert addition Bob I really appreciate when people who know their shit contribute here. And all this time I thought I was getting by the dogs with my little vacuum sealer. Considering all the venders who have shipped thousands of packages successfully over the months (and this is not the only site) that dont use 3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBBs, or alike with a dishwasher shower and clean clothes ( I dont know of any that do) that could not have made it past a dog, what it tells me is dont even worry about the dogs not only because its so difficult to get by them but your chances of a dog sniffing your package is close to odds of winning a lottery. Or am I missing something?
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drpvmd: I have no idea if they employ dogs or scanners for domestic mail. Obviously it's used for incoming international mail and other countries seem to rely on dogs & scanners heavily. I'd guess that occasionally domestic mail gets screened, they probably seize packages on a daily basis. But with the massive volume of mail they can probably only screen a small fraction of it all. Postal Inspectors probably do controlled delivery & love letters on a daily basis, but again, only a small fraction of the successful deliveries. So i'm confident that if you're getting drugs in the mail you're odds of getting arrested are far greater than the odds of a lottery ticket winning the jackpot.
Also I have no clue what the interception rate is for domestic & international shipments, I would guess from reading the forums maybe a couple percent for things coming from certain countries like the Netherlands, maybe a fraction of a percent for domestic. I hear Japan is very tough to send anything to as they use dogs and scanners on all incoming mail, but I've never shipped anything there myself. If anybody knows more feel free to brief us.
If I were shipping anything to japan I sure as hell wouldn't use food grade bagging.
As for domestic mail, you only have to fool human noses 99.x% of the time. The issue is that even if it's only a fraction of a % chance that a dog or scanner inspects your mail, the consequences can be huge for the buyer. Maybe a love letter, maybe cops kicking down the door and 3-5 years in prison.
I'd give it WAY better odds than winning the lottery (mega-millions odds = 1/175million). If using a MBB that only costs me $1 can reduce the probability of one of my packages from being intercepted by a small fraction of a percent I think it's worth it in the end.
Best Regards,
Bob
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The lottery was probably not the best choice to make my point. I ship mostly in the USA in very small amounts but Im all for the best security possible so I will definitely look into making this change in packaging. I appreciate the info. thank you.
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Great Post!
Always a good read to hear from people on the inside.
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Excellent read! I love posts like this, get into the mind of "the enemy" classic sun tzu shit! Thanks, Kudos!
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Former UPS employee here. The OP clearly worked at an airport hub for UPS. Any time you involve a plane, a dog or some heavier form of scrutinizing will likely be involved. For your 3-day select and UPS ground, they are staying on the ground and in trucks (or train) that are only opened by UPS unloaders. I've never seen police at my hub and it was the 2nd largest hub for the state.
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Great Post!
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This was a very interesting read.
When you say the package are 'scanned' what do you mean?
Is there any X-Ray somewhere? I want to ship package out of the country, do they put package under X-RAY's to see what's inside?
If so, how do you guys pass the X-RAY ?
Thanks.
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Helpful! Thanks for the info!
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Excellent info, but given the massive volume that many vendors deal with, and the fact that many of them work alone, I have to wonder how many vendors will take all the necessary steps that were suggested.
Also, now that FarmerBob has suggested a specific shipping bag to be used (the 3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBBs) I wouldn't be surprised if the USPS just makes a new policy to treat all packages with a 3M Dri-Shield 3700 as suspect.
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Excellent info, but given the massive volume that many vendors deal with, and the fact that many of them work alone, I have to wonder how many vendors will take all the necessary steps that were suggested.
Also, now that FarmerBob has suggested a specific shipping bag to be used (the 3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBBs) I wouldn't be surprised if the USPS just makes a new policy to treat all packages with a 3M Dri-Shield 3700 as suspect.
:o HA HA HA, Allow me to help out my bro Captain "Sensible", as he's drugged outta his mind at the moment , so how are they gonna know what the bag material is? Open it and read the label? And If there's a UPC or Label on it wouldn't the sensible thing to do to be just peel it off?!? But they'd still need a search warrant!. I know, we'll let the dog sniff it to see if he hits on it so we can get our search warrant and open it up and see what the bagging is made of. BAM!
*And we all know that the USPS would NEVER look for a package tripple vac sealed in food plastic. They just open those and are like "ohh, shit tripple sealed green leafy shit... but it's food bags so it must be oregeno, pack it back up and ship it Alex, we're looking for moisture bags"
If I hit post and it tells me somebody else already jumped on this I'm gonna be pissed cause I wanted a screenshot. 8)
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This is probably the 5th thread I've posted this in, sorry if you've already read it but I'm trying to spread the word
DO NOT USE PLASTIC BAGGING FOR SEALING DRUGS, use metal laminate MBBs
DO NOT BOTHER WITH VACUUM SEALS, leave enough air in to check for pinholes, these are of much greater concern than absolute pressure differential.
trust me on this one, i'm a retired aerospace engineer and I know a thing or two about packaging & contamination control...
Do you do this with your own shipments? If so, then I applaud you for such incredible attention to detail.
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This is probably the 5th thread I've posted this in, sorry if you've already read it but I'm trying to spread the word
DO NOT USE PLASTIC BAGGING FOR SEALING DRUGS, use metal laminate MBBs
DO NOT BOTHER WITH VACUUM SEALS, leave enough air in to check for pinholes, these are of much greater concern than absolute pressure differential.
trust me on this one, i'm a retired aerospace engineer and I know a thing or two about packaging & contamination control...
Do you do this with your own shipments? If so, then I applaud you for such incredible attention to detail.
you should never ask a vendor to discuss the methods that he or she uses personally. with that said, isn't it obvious that he's a professional? ;)
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you should never ask a vendor to discuss the methods that he or she uses personally. with that said, isn't it obvious that he's a professional? ;)
[/quote]
Hey, he's the one that mentioned it, and it was mostly rhetorical anyhow ;)
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Thank you. This was very helpful.
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+1 for author
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EDITED: Sorry for spreading misinformation, after educating myself further about the USPS, they WILL dust for fingerprints if you ship a package which has been opened due to suspicion/x-rays, remove all finger prints! Wear doctors gloves when handling all shipping equipment.
I hope you all get some use out of this, please feel free to ask me any questions, I am here to help.
How do you purchase the shipping material like envelopes/boxes without getting our prints on it? Wouldn't it be a little weird buying that type of thing wearing latex gloves? I'm interested. Very nice article by the way.
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EDITED: Sorry for spreading misinformation, after educating myself further about the USPS, they WILL dust for fingerprints if you ship a package which has been opened due to suspicion/x-rays, remove all finger prints! Wear doctors gloves when handling all shipping equipment.
I hope you all get some use out of this, please feel free to ask me any questions, I am here to help.
How do you purchase the shipping material like envelopes/boxes without getting our prints on it? Wouldn't it be a little weird buying that type of thing wearing latex gloves? I'm interested. Very nice article by the way.
if you're going to be a vendor, you need to grow your brains a little :)
most of these types of things (including DCN stickers) come in stacks. grab a stack, then discard the top and bottom one later.
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yes - if going to vend - u must put more thought into what ur doing. in 5 seconds i can think of 5 ways to solve your problem above (how get supply wtihout prints) and 1 of the ways ^^^ mentioned. its common sense. if not common sense to u - dont vend or maybe u end up in bad place.
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i not know FarmerBob, but can tell u - listen to what he say!
if only 1 thing you listen to - make it this -> DO NOT USE PLASTIC BAGGING FOR SEALING DRUGS, use metal laminate MBBs <-
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I'm sorry but I feel like I really must clear up some serious misconceptions here, not as a slight against the OP, who has provided some useful information, but to further the knowledge of forum users and perhaps encourage some reasoned debate on the matter.
Let me state this plainly. The notion that sniffer dogs have this almost miraculous efficacy in sniffing out whatever it is they are trained to sniff out is a bit of a myth. In fact, most sniffer dogs are pretty bad at their job. Whilst it is true that they are superb at smelling what they are trained to smell, upon closer analysis, this does not become the kind of drug bustin' panacea that the DEA want you to think it is (it seems clear to me that their role is 90% of the time symbolic).
It is a myth in two senses. Firstly, a number of controlled experiments have shown sniffer dogs to have a massive rate of false positives. Some have found a false positive rate upwards at 90%, whilst others have suggested that a sniffer dog has no stronger likelihood than random chance in detecting illicit substances.
If we consider the volume of mail that goes through a sorting centre or a customs office or wherever in a day, and the time taken to search x quantity of mail that the sniffer dog has identified as containing illicit substances, it becomes quite clear that even if the dog identified a smell in x bag or x can which was then emptied, it would be difficult to narrow that smell down to any particular package and even when they did, it would be more likely to be a false positive than a package containing an actual illicit substance. This picture becomes clearer when we consider the second aspect.
The second aspect of the efficacy myth concerns the relation of a particular drug to a particular smell. There seems to be this idea that heroin has A SMELL, and that we can train a dog to sniff FOR HEROIN, and that therefore, if a dog barks and sits down for his treat next to a package, it contains heroin. Wrong again. Dogs sniff a particular component of the smell (sometimes a single molecule) of a drug that is also found in a vast array of completely legal products. In the case of MDMA for example, what dogs actually detect is a molecule called piperonal, which can be found in contraband such as soap or head lice repellant.
Now, consider a third aspect. Not just that the smell that the dog identifies could be a drug or could be someones wash bag, but that smells are in a sense contagious. Let's say that I rub the outside of the envelope with some hash oil, or some other substance invisible to our eye. When it's getting mixed up with all the other items, or especially if it's sat in a bag for a while, the molecules that the dog detects that are on the outside of envelope will transfer to other items. So if the dog rightly identifies a big sack of mail containing one envelope with illicit substances inside, there is a reasonable likelihood that the molecules that that dog detects will have been transferred to the other items. Think about emptying that sack on the floor, let's say that we pass one envelope infront of the dog and it gives the sign that it has detected the smell. We have to open that envelope, examine its contents (which, could take a while, depending on the contents...) but there's nothing inside, the substances are in another. This could go on for tens or even hundreds of items, unless of course, the dog had some other training, whereby it could select the strongest smell from a selection of items (but I have not heard of this...), but even if it had this, it would require a certain amount of time and effort, time and effort spent whilst thousands of mail items fly by unchecked.
The studies make this point very clearly. When testing scenarios like this the dog's likelihood of actually finding illicit substances is only a little better than randomly stopping and searching packages. And when we think a little more deeply about what it actually means to be a sniffer dog, that they are trained to respond to particular molecules, that those molecules are found in a variety of products and not just drugs, that the molecules can be easily transferred during transit, that every stop to examine a package (which remember, is upwards of 80 or 90% depending on the study not going to yield a result) means numerous packages go past unexamined, it becomes quite clear why.
Of course, this is strenuously denied by the security services (but then, such is the power of belief....), and security companies websites won't show the failure of one of their 'most important tools', but the contrived situations on training videos in no way replicate the messy realities the dogs actually work in. And street cops or whatever show it is aren't exactly going to give a balanced perspective on false positives either (it would probably fill up a whole show!).
I would like to add a further note on evaluating the efficacy of sniffer dogs, not as any positive theory, but to perhaps moderate the responses of other users or make people think a little harder about the examples they might give in their favour. Let's consider a hypothetical scenario involving a sniffer dog. A bomb threat on the subway. The sniffer dog and his or her handler move quickly down the carriage, with the dog being directed and urged towards passengers, their bags etc... The dog will sometimes bark or show signs of interest but be pulled back by the handler. Then the dog will bark and show interest towards a certain passenger or bag. The handler will make the decision that THIS bag is needs to be examined seriously, and upon closer examination there is the bomb. Notice here, there are two agents, the dog and the handler. The dog may have signalled numerous times before, but the handler suspected or knew or had an intuiton that it wasn't the case... For example, it was a child with a chip sandwich (vinegar contains acetic acid which is the primary molecule that drug dogs sniff for for heroin), or a bag too small to fit an explosive device. The dog may bring the handlers attention to particular objects or subjects, and thus reduce the amount of possible targets therefore aiding detection, but the notion that the sniffer dog accurately sniffed out the bomb is nothing more than petty animism, or the ascription of human agency to an animal through the misrecognition of agency in the completion of the task (basically, we like dogs, we like to think of dogs as human, and we are very happy to misrecognise our intuition and agency as their own).
I apologise for the length of my response but I wanted to make my case as clearly as possible. That is all I have to say on the matter of sniffer dogs, but I would like to ponder a bit further on some of the OPs other comments regarding 'suspicious', which I find a bit silly to say the least.
"1) Silly names. EX. Joe Bob, Mr. Wang, Cheech and Chong etc etc etc etc.
2) Odd markings on a package
1.) Silly names like Mr Wang, honestly? There isn't such a thing as a silly name. There is such a thing as a name that small minded americans don't recognise or understand and that in their imperialism consider to be silly. But let's think about it empirically. There are billions of people in the world with what an american would call a silly name. So the packages that go through with a silly name gets checked? of course not. You would see thousands of them everyday. The picture of an employee turning to another and saying, "Hey Bob, Bob, this guy is called WANG HA HA HA", is much more likely than them doing anything about it. If they stopped every item with a name they found silly they would have little time to do anything else.
2.) Odd markings on the package. Again, take this seriously. So many people re-use packaging, doodle on packaging, spill beer on packaging... And what about post from india, or china, or japan, or thailand, or greece, or russia... All covered in odd markings (it's called their script!). Some indian post offices use the most exquisite stamps and markings to identify post or determine its destination. Now, think of a big sack of it heading for the uk, they either check the whole bag or ignore it. My bet is that they ignore it. There is no standard marking on post, it comes in all shapes and sizes and covered in all sorts of stuff. And surely, the people who are sending illicit substances are not going to be the guys who have an anarchist flag stamped on a heavy envelope that reeks of weed? I mean come on!!!! This is American "are you a terrorist tick this box" mentality (i'm not being anti american here, you could say the same thing about britain and the incessant warning to report anything suspicious on the tube.. what utter nonsense. and no surprise that their terrorist hotline has been indundated by calls from middle class white women fearful of a person of non white origin bending over).
I'm not trying to say that the OP does not make some important points and valuable suggestions, but it seems to me written in an idiom of scaremongering, or heinous knowledge, as opposed to proper reasoned information about the process.
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Your points are very good and everyone would be wise to consider those points in all walks of life. Making something seem much more reliable/precise and even dangerous han it really is happens all over the media, in companies and government sections. Mostly to inhibit people. As this will lower the amount of work and checking they have to do if people just are too afraid to do something.
Unfortunately you go off into some kind of anti western rant that quite frankly does not become someone intelligent enough to author the writing above.
Yes, Americans can be a bit Americanocentic at times. So what? Every country/culture has its good sides and bad sides.
What you fail to see by focussing on the not so suspicious mr wang example (which os indeed only funny/"suspiciois" for Americans) is that the point about the strange names is a very valid one. See the cheech and chong example he also gave? Some stoners are stupid enough to use those names (taken from the title of a well known stoner movie if you didn't know already). It will raise eyebrows especially in combination with oher factors (grocery bag packaging, etc).
Other names that occur. Imagine packages addressed to Mickey Mouse, James Bond or Prince. A domestic mail piece envelop just the size of a birthday card addressed to MIckey Mouse? Big deal. A 10 Pound package coming from India addressed to Mickey Mouse? It WILL be xrayed, count on that.
Another point I wish to make is about the chance of your packing being closely examnied. Evrybody is talking about percentages, but nobody looks up the numbers.
As an example take the Netherlands which is a very small country yet seems to be perceived as "difficult". According to the data of their main post company alone on their website (so even excluding all other carriers, fedex, etc). They handle 15 MILLION letters and 350000 packages daily. Now imagine the volume the US has to deal with. All examinations, also the ones that have nothong to do wih the contents such as the checking if there are enough stamps on there, are ALL done rqndomly and in small batches
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I noticed earlier someone said to use magazines or old papers to fill out a box to keep it from rattling. One thing to remember is to take any identifying information off of what you shove into a box. ie the spam mail you get at your house, or your old magazines. Both will have your address. The magazines especially will likely have your fingerprints as well. Someone correct me if the paper in a magazine won't hold prints, I could be wrong.
Regardless, stay paranoid, and double and triple think about how you could be including incriminating things in what you pack, aside from the actual detection of the contents.
IANAL nor do I know if LE goes to these lengths. My opinion is if LE is looking at you or a frequent customer, they will go to the length of checking packing materials for prints, but that is just my opinion.
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Great thread.
As a new vendor and member of the forums I figure I'll add my two cents.
A lot of mailers have barcodes on the bottom, which could be used as identifiers by LE.
Most junk mail is whats called a targeted mailing, that is, your area is targeted by whoever is sending the junk mail
For instance Chick-Fil-A wouldn't send you a coupon in the mail if their isn't a store close enough to your area.
That being said, reusing targeted mail is making you a target yourself.
In most cases its not a big deal, but it only takes one slip.
Your magazines do keep prints, but so do your dentists magazines. Don't forget to remove the cover.
TL:DR If you can't afford real packing supplies make sure to use your brain!
;)
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Its been said a few times to do a 5 mm wide heat seal. If you have a cheaper sealer that is only 2 mm wide, for example, why not simply seal it twice or three times like one after another? Why pay over $100 for a new sealer when you can use the one you have? And where do you find this metal coated plastic? Does it have to be special ordered or can you pick it up at stores locally which would bed more convenient and leave no record of you ordering it?
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I used to work in Germany's ground transportation firm for 5 years. Only once cops with a dog showed up and they searched for one specific sender's boxes so they must had some kind of info. As I know every ground transportation firm in the same region for example EU (except UK) are not doing any checks for the items they ship unless the box or envelope is torn or showered with something. When courier takes a shipment he calls to mobile number written on it, he comes on agreed time and never asks ID just sometimes asks to tell a surname which is written on the box. Then you need only to sign. You can not risk to sign but usually same courier always arrives from same firm because they have their districts shared. So if a cop will show up instead then you will notice that he is not your courier then you can refuse to take package and sign by telling that this some kind of mistake. Still it is not safe. Best thing to have inside man as a courier.
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OP makes it sound as if K9 dogs are at the UPS sort facility every day/night. I worked at 2 different sort facilities for a major US city. Want to know how many times I saw a K9, absolutely 0.
I also have a relative that has worked for USPS at a major sort facility for 15 years attnd he has never seen a K9, and may see a postal inspector once every 3 months or so.
I have to note that none of these facilities had Customs either
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I heard a rumor a moth ago that order was given to Germany's ground transportation firm DPD by LE, that the content or papers of every shipment to Ireland must be checked before sending it because of some kind of illegal shit traffic lately.
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2 years at UPS loading the browns during morning shift, and 2 years on night shift loading cans and trailers in Seattle. Never once saw police or dogs.
Just my experience, not saying it doesn't happen. Not saying to take his packaging advise to heart. Just saying: that just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean that they aren't after you.
peace,
GummyB
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Would sudden interruption of mail for 5+ days be cause for alarm?
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Recently I had a bubble envelope arrive through USPS with no product in it. I could tell before I opened it that it had been cut open and re-sealed. Would really appreciate some input on this since I have searched for this and found no answers.
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Thanks for the wealth of information. This will definitely help if I start shipping.
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Excellent info, but given the massive volume that many vendors deal with, and the fact that many of them work alone, I have to wonder how many vendors will take all the necessary steps that were suggested.
Also, now that FarmerBob has suggested a specific shipping bag to be used (the 3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBBs) I wouldn't be surprised if the USPS just makes a new policy to treat all packages with a 3M Dri-Shield 3700 as suspect.
:o HA HA HA, Allow me to help out my bro Captain "Sensible", as he's drugged outta his mind at the moment , so how are they gonna know what the bag material is? Open it and read the label? And If there's a UPC or Label on it wouldn't the sensible thing to do to be just peel it off?!? But they'd still need a search warrant!. I know, we'll let the dog sniff it to see if he hits on it so we can get our search warrant and open it up and see what the bagging is made of. BAM!
3M Dri-Shield 3700 MBB sniffing dog? I would have thought that obvious, Captain.
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Farmer Bob's posting was excellent and got me thinking about the science of packing. Okay I understand the metal MBBs. I understand the need for a 5mm seal. My questions are I have been doing some research into available materials. I have found aluminum moisture barrier bags by a company called dry-packs. They have a ziplock re-sealer up top but can also be heat sealed above that point. Will this do? Are there any brands that are preferable? As for a proper heat sealer, anything special required? Any specific models that would be good to look at?
My one science question is I understand the argument that vacuum sealing is non essential: the pressure differential has little meaning. More about how pourous the bag material is and how contaminated it is. What about when the package goes up in a plane where the cargo will not be pressurized? Will the fact you left air in the sealed bag pose a problem? I've had potato chips sent to me before that arrived exploded due to the pressure. Will this not effect/stress a sealed bag? You wouldn't want it rupturing in the air and leaking smells when it lands. Thoughts?
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great thread should be a sticky
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shit i am high it is a sticky. funny. anyway good reading for sure
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I noticed earlier someone said to use magazines or old papers to fill out a box to keep it from rattling. One thing to remember is to take any identifying information off of what you shove into a box. ie the spam mail you get at your house, or your old magazines. Both will have your address. The magazines especially will likely have your fingerprints as well. Someone correct me if the paper in a magazine won't hold prints, I could be wrong.
Regardless, stay paranoid, and double and triple think about how you could be including incriminating things in what you pack, aside from the actual detection of the contents.
IANAL nor do I know if LE goes to these lengths. My opinion is if LE is looking at you or a frequent customer, they will go to the length of checking packing materials for prints, but that is just my opinion.
No, paranoia is irrational fear: don't be irrational, be careful and watchful! I haven't had a vendor try to "pad" a box before, and I think it's totally unnecessary: weight is only one of the many factors the post office checks when deciding whether to flag a package or not, and if that's the only one that pops up (and the package otherwise looks generic) then they very likely will send it on its way without a second look. People have to remember: there is far too many packages going through the post office for them to check any of them in any detail, unless something really obvious (weed coming out of the box, stains from a mysterious liquid, strong smells that humans can detect) comes up.
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Recently I had a bubble envelope arrive through USPS with no product in it. I could tell before I opened it that it had been cut open and re-sealed. Would really appreciate some input on this since I have searched for this and found no answers.
Sounds like a straight-up theft, who knows where down the line. LE wouldn't do that: they always open packages very carefully and reseal them just as carefully before they attempt a controlled delivery. They would also leave some product in the envelope, so it's very unlikely you have to worry about the PD knocking on your door (well for this anyhow)
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I used to work for a company that shipped thousands of marijuana pipes a day all over the world. Our boxes reaked because we smoked all day while packaging the shipments. We were sending paraphernalia and actually worked with UPS WORLDSHIP to circumvent customs. research worldship, its the tits if you ship alot of stuff. obviously you shouldnt use a worldship account for shipping contraband.
In the few years i worked there only one shipment got stopped by customs and that was because the invoice was over 10K.
Im not saying nothing ever gets checked but I think the probability is very slim that there's a dog smelling every package that gets shipped.
9 times out of 10 the item didnt arrive because the vendor didnt ship. that tenth time, something happened and the shit was ceased. Most likely because of faulty packaging.
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Superior info!!
Thnx Dudeguy & Farmerbob. Your expertise is well heeded and very much appreciated ;)
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Just would like to throw my two cents in as yet another ex-UPS employee (where are you FedEx'ers?).
Some background, I worked for almost 2 years in the late 90's at a medium sized hub. I worked unload, load, sort aisle, and finally as a load/training supervisor.
I would first like to say I never, not once saw a dog or anyone I knew to be police. It was pretty commonly said that dogs were in use at the airport, but I can't confirm this myself never having been there. They did have private security. The couple of them I met, it would not surprise me that they were ex police or military just by demeanor. They did seem focused on theft prevention though.
The one incident in my time there that I know drugs were there was a box that came out of an air shipment container that was clearly full of good weed (it completely stunk up the supervisor offices). It was found because the pothead that unloaded the container took one sniff and then smelled every package as he unloaded it. He confided in me later that he was planning on taking it but quickly came to the realization that there was no way to remove it from the facilities.
The training done there in my time was strictly get the job done, no suspicious package identification. Keep in mind that this is before 9/11.
Now, my concerns with shipping UPS...
1. I would never ship anything but ground. It seems from rumors I heard and first hand experience of the OP that the airport is their primary concern for finding drugs.
2. I would never ship small packages or envelopes or packages exceeding 70 pounds as these are separated from the rest (in the small sort and irreg train respectively) and could very easily be exposed to higher scrutiny.
That being said, a medium sized ground rate box is the quickest and most direct path through the hub. Assuming no damage, it's highly unlikely that it will leave the conveyor system anywhere from truck a to truck b except half a moment while it's in the hands of a sorter.
I would not feel any worry putting a well packaged box through the UPS ground system. My major concern would be making sure that if the outer box got damaged and something fell out that it wouldn't be obvious what it was.
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This was a very interesting read.
When you say the package are 'scanned' what do you mean?
Is there any X-Ray somewhere? I want to ship package out of the country, do they put package under X-RAY's to see what's inside?
If so, how do you guys pass the X-RAY ?
Thanks.
this is really important, any employeer that can actually answer this??
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Wow .. Thank you for sharing these tips.. I can't believe vendors would use grocery bags ::)
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Thanks for the info man!
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A lot of good information to take in here. Thank you all for posting.
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good information
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This was a very interesting read.
When you say the package are 'scanned' what do you mean?
Is there any X-Ray somewhere? I want to ship package out of the country, do they put package under X-RAY's to see what's inside?
If so, how do you guys pass the X-RAY ?
Thanks.
this is really important, any employeer that can actually answer this??
I do believe that aluminum foil will solve your problems, a more professional way to go about this is heat sealed bags with an aluminum layer.
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This was a very interesting read.
When you say the package are 'scanned' what do you mean?
Is there any X-Ray somewhere? I want to ship package out of the country, do they put package under X-RAY's to see what's inside?
If so, how do you guys pass the X-RAY ?
Thanks.
this is really important, any employeer that can actually answer this??
I do believe that aluminum foil will solve your problems, a more professional way to go about this is heat sealed bags with an aluminum layer.
Foil can be detected trhu x-ray! dont use it,my friend get cought when sending coke from usa.
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This was a very interesting read.
When you say the package are 'scanned' what do you mean?
Is there any X-Ray somewhere? I want to ship package out of the country, do they put package under X-RAY's to see what's inside?
If so, how do you guys pass the X-RAY ?
Thanks.
this is really important, any employeer that can actually answer this??
I do believe that aluminum foil will solve your problems, a more professional way to go about this is heat sealed bags with an aluminum layer.
Foil can be detected trhu x-ray! dont use it,my friend get cought when sending coke from usa.
It depends on the type of foil, I thought. Can you please elaborate, Joy? I ship domestically only US to US, and I really have had no problems thus far (although my packages aren't just an envelope looking like documents with foil inside. I can see where that would cause concern, but in the same, I'd really like some more info on this if possible as I might need to change methods???
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I use to work for the united parcel service, not to be confused with the USPS. This is the brown one, but I have been told the operations are very similar but the USPS operates on a smaller scale, usually handling mostly LETTERS. (put packages on accident, reason for editing)
Let me walk you through the process of an envelope being sent at UPS and you can extrapolate to alter your shipping methods if need be.
1) Letter gets picked up from the box, sorted by hand and placed into what is called a "Smalls bag". It is a nylon bag about 3ftx3ft and will scar your hands up if they are too dry.
2) This bag is filled with items that are all going to the same sorting facility, no dogs are present at this point.
3) The bag makes its way to your local sorting facility where the planes and trucks reside.
(After this point the dogs are present but are not taken to every area and sometimes, not even used for a whole day)
4) The bag is scanned, opened and placed on a rack so the employee doesn't have to hold a 70lb bag while he manually scans every individual letter and puts it in one of up to 10 different shoots which feed the letter into another person who then puts it in another nylon bag.
5) This nylon bag is then placed on a conveyor belt that runs the length of the entire facility so that bags need not be carried or driven to their loading destination.
6) The bags are sorted by a machine and sent to the appropriate feeder/ULD (large 12x9x9 canister for airplanes)
7) The can is loaded until full, at this point is where the dogs usually find and detect a package, it is easier for the police officers to run the dogs past an already filled container as opposed to running them by every lane. ALTHOUGH on occasion I have had dogs come by me while UNLOADING cans but this had only happened twice over a 2 and a half year period of working there 5 days a week.
8 ) The can is sealed and on it's way to it's plane. Your package is safe until it reaches it's destination where it will again be sorted, by hand, by unloaders and placed onto a delivery truck. Sometimes these final facilities, dependent on the area you live in, will have more dogs that go into each delivery truck where the packages are open and not protected by the nylon bags or stuck under a pile of boxes filled with other non-illict herbs, fish, reptiles, cakes etc.
***NOTE*** During late spring, summer and early autumn, the planes cargo compartments reach a VERY high temperature. I'm not sure of the exact temperature but they are flying above clouds, receive direct UV exposure and the cargo hold has little to no air flow. This will cause anything that isn't AT LEAST triple sealed, to begin to REEK. Anyone who has made hash or cannabutter will know that when bud is heated slowly it begins to reek. There have been times when I have opened a ULD (canister for a plane) and literally been knocked back by how SKUNKY it smelled. One guy I worked with was actually able to find a package with an oz of bud in it, opened it, and took it home. He was later fired for stealing but UPS did not know what it was. I have personally held boxes, turned to put them on conveyor and a wiff of budd will edge itself out of the crevices of a box. I let them go on but not everyone appreciates bud like I do and many people have turned in packages. Turned in packages by UPS are usually allowed to be delivered and are the last stop for the driver. Where the driver will hand a police office a uniform, the package and allow him to walk up to your doorstep and ask you to sign for the package at which point he will arrest you. They have already inspected this package and know its contents. This mostly pertains to shipping bud.
A lot of people have stated, do not sign for any packages you order off SR. Take the loss not the jail time.
ADVICE:
If it is over an oz, I'd recommend washing the outside of the vacuum bag in an environment where bud is not being smoked.
EDITED: Sorry for spreading misinformation, after educating myself further about the USPS, they WILL dust for fingerprints if you ship a package which has been opened due to suspicion/x-rays, remove all finger prints! Wear doctors gloves when handling all shipping equipment.
AND MOST OF ALL*************** BE CAREFUL WITH THE TAPE!********************
This may sound silly but having shipped a TON of items of non-illicit content, the packaging tape is basically a finger print recording device. Don't handle it without gloves on, I know it's hard to get off gloves, or anything that isn't your hands but oh well.
If shipping a large amount in a box, seal the box properly. Using 2 layers of packaging tape is not suspect and is not taught as a suspicious package procedure. Suspicious package procedures are as follows:
1) Silly names. EX. Joe Bob, Mr. Wang, Cheech and Chong etc etc etc etc.
2) Odd markings on a package
3) Inproper weight put on the package. If you print your own label and said that it is 10lbs and it's actually only -1lb and someone notices it on the box, there is a 20% chance they will report it which will cause a supervisor to visually inspect it, put his nose up to it, shake it around etc. If he oks it, which I have seen them do 90% of the time, you are ok.
4) Seal BOTH sides of the box BUT only seal one side of the letter. The glue for an envelope is commonly thought as not secure enough by people who sell normal products. Feel free to use packaging tape around both ends of the envelope VERY LIGHTLY, one to two runs over is enough.
5) Make your product stable in the box, when someone picks it up and its light as feather they can feel a tennis ball sized object bouncing around, that is suspect. Take the time to use old spam mail, old magazines and roll them up and place them on a bottom layer, put your package on top of that, then put several more layers above and around it. This will cause the package to not shake when rattled, is cheaper then packing peanuts and better then tossing those old magazines.
6) The only time I ever saw a police dog tear open a package and it had a many layered vacuum sealed bag, the dog completely ignored the bag once he ripped the box apart, he was only interested in the box. Reason? The dog couldn't smell the weed in the vacuum seal but smelled some residue on the box itself! Be sure to pack your items in a clean environment. Do not smoke around your packing materials and do not pack in the room where you hold the bud. Vacuum the bud in one room, clean your hands, and package it in the box as described above.
The dogs they use for packing facilities are near retirement age dogs, the good ones are left to be used by designated targets of the DEA and for local law enforcement. They are sometimes not the best sniffers but have an experienced nose. Take precaution.
I have ONCE seen DEA jackets at UPS. They know what they are there for. At this point the vendor is already suspect and his packages have been watched for some time by local law enforcement. All his shipments are flagged but, legally, can only be opened with reasonable cause and the only legal way is actually have evidence of the content (they don't) or the dog finds something inside it, at which point they open it, deliver it, and press the buyer into giving up information.
The last paragraph I stated is a very rare occurence and the person must not have been packaging their material well enough.
I later asked the guy who stole the weed how he found it so easily. He told me the guy wrapped it like 10 grocery store bags and used like a whole roll of packaging tape to bind it altogether. This is NOT a suitable replacement for vacuum sealing.
--->5/25/2012<--
DO NOT DO THIS! I HAVE READ OF A COUPLE NEW VENDORS SELLING AND SHIPPING VIA UPS USING GROCERY BAGS. YOU WILL GET YOUR CUSTOMER CAUGHT! IF ANY FEEDBACK FOR A BUYER STATES THIS, DO NOT BUY! THEY WILL CONTROL SHIP TO YOUR HOUSE AND MAKE YOU VERY UNCOMFORTABLE/ARRESTED.
I hope you all get some use out of this, please feel free to ask me any questions, I am here to help.
That was a great, Very informal post. I am curious if anybody on the road has any idea how canada post operates ? I would assume close to these methods. I am a new vendor about to be opening shop & am curious if shipping xpress post out of canada & to other countrys I.E USA is a safe bet aslong as it is packaged according to this post ? I am used to doing snail mail with all my vending but dont want to get caught with my pants down if somebody says i never shipped. So I am curious if a SR veteran could help me out on this. Would be using xpress post with no signature shipped from canada.
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You cant use Xpresspost leaving Canada without it requiring a signature on the other end. You can use Expedited though.
Wrap your products properly, make the outside packaging look professional and you wont have any problems with customs.
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You cant use Xpresspost leaving Canada without it requiring a signature on the other end. You can use Expedited though.
Wrap your products properly, make the outside packaging look professional and you wont have any problems with customs.
Thank you very much for clearing that up for me man :) much appreciated
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thanks for the info
now i know im doing it good :)
DD
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Great Post, thank you for sharing your information. While reading I realized that i follow most of these steps to a T. Pro... what can i say. LOL. Thank you so much once again.
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thanks for this info,loads of helpful information
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I read about buying a shelf company and packages sent to that name, what would be the next safest bet? someone is always at my house and I would hate for a controlled delivery come knocking and i'm not there and someone opens the door and gets thrown in a police car on my account.
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man dogs can smell parts per million or billion. think of it like this. a shark can smell one drop of blood in a HUGE OCEAN AREA of several square miles! Dogs can smell you before they see, hear or taste you. Dogs are land sharks.lol They can smell a mg of something in a semi truck. A mg is a lot in dog senses. They dont miss shit like you urbanized humans. No comparison. If you cant smell it, they still can! I promise. There is almost no way to get around dogs.
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GUys please help me out if you can with a question...Iv got a package and i just checked up on the track and it made it from west coast to close to east coast with no issue, now when i looked at it today its update was 'arrived at postal office' then it goes to 'Missent' what does missent mean? Have they lost the package or could it be they made a mistake somehow and it will work itself out? thnx for any info.. There's no way i should call the post office where it says 'Missent" and ask whats the issue should I?
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Missent works out OK every time I have had it
It means the post office missent it to the wrong postal facility and they are routing it back where it has to go.
Its different then undeliverable as addresses, which is a senders issue.
In my experience anyways.
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Thanks for this post. I am not a vendor but I found this post very insightful. I learned so much! It took a lot of time and effort to answer the questions with such detail and I really appreciate your efforts.
Thank you!
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Missent works out OK every time I have had it
It means the post office missent it to the wrong postal facility and they are routing it back where it has to go.
Its different then undeliverable as addresses, which is a senders issue.
In my experience anyways.
Yeah, I can confirm this for ya my friend. I had several express packages domestically that showed that same thing. What happened, after some very paranoid investigation, was that my package was simply thrown in the wrong sorting bin and left in the wrong truck. Therefore, if the sort facility it ends up in due to that employee's mistake is not the one that should have been in succession, the package has to be rerouted to the facility where the mistake was made (this makes no sense to me, but anywho) and then is on the correct path. I can say if you call from a safe number and bitch about it (especially if it's express and guaranteed; you kinda have em by the short hairs if they don't meet the deadline and you acknowledge it). You have nothing to worry about most likely my friend. I can see there being mistakes with the mail as busy as I'm sure it is.
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Very interesting read thank you!
I was also a former UPS worker in a large hub unloading, loading, and finally sorting in my three month career while going to school. As stated by others I never saw any dogs or anyone talking about drugs/training what to look for or anything of that nature. It was a grind job and workers couldn't give two shats what was in the packages tbh. Don't let paranoia take over thinking workers are stealing everything... we were watched very closely and the pace alone of the job would make it very difficult to pull off. The only thief I ever saw or heard about at the time was a guy who would take the occasional Columbia club weekly CD (packaging was easily spotted). Even then the guy would have to crotch the thing at some point and work with it in his pants... not worth it lol. Maybe at a smaller terminal this kind of thing could go on but in a hub there is little if any chance. The amount and speed in which the packages flow in and out is amazing and anything that slowed down the process was undesirable. People were literally screamed at if slow or if "missorts" were found (wrong zip code packages in trucks) and if you ever notice a UPS driver at your door... he won't stand around to chat and instead almost runs back to his truck.
My two cents.... speed is their profit driver and your friend here at SR.
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What donkeydong says corresponds with my thoughts.
Vendors around here get away with alot of "employee theft" and "seizure" nonsense when in reality the numbers arent high whatsoever.
I've shipped for 3 years rather heavily ... stuff doesnt just vanish and if packaged right it doesnt get taken.
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What donkeydong says corresponds with my thoughts.
Vendors around here get away with alot of "employee theft" and "seizure" nonsense when in reality the numbers arent high whatsoever.
I've shipped for 3 years rather heavily ... stuff doesnt just vanish and if packaged right it doesnt get taken.
I have to agree that the postal system most often is not the problem at hand when it comes to missing items. I have not ever had an issue with them and have been sending and receiving whatever to wherever for the last six or eight years. The only time I ever had an issue it was due to the person supposedly taking things to the office to be entered in and sent. Thank-You everyone who contributed to any and all of the shipping threads. Even old hands almost certainly have learned a few helpful pointers from these threads if read all the way through. If nothing else you will be more aware of every little action you are taking whether good, bad, or neutral. It has certainly got me thinking and as I said I've not had even one issue with any delivery service in over half a decade.
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Excellent post. Really liked the idea for vendors to try training up their own dogs to pre-sniff out-going parcels therefore ruling out what seems to be the biggest threat other than bad packaging.
Being from the UK, I'm wondering if the filth can legitimately search yr post if they know you have a record...reasonable suspicion n all that?
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Hey mate!! what can you tell me about sending pills through?? I am a pill seller here on SR, don't do weed etc. I am trying to find out possible methods of reducing the rattle of pills if they are blister packed and what is a strict no no!!
Thanks in advance!! :)
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Indian PD,
Take the pills out the blister pack and line them up ad vac seal them ..That way the pills stay fresh and also reduce the risk of breaking.. Then stealth hide them with whatever method you use..
Sending pills in blister packs is not the smartst idea cause of the rattle.. SO i reccomend taking them out and arranging them one by one. If you dont have a vac seal ,
take the pill then a piece of tape and put the pills one by one on the sticky side of the tape, and then tape that inside a dvd case or something.. But Iv got pills from te ALL MIGHT AUS that way with no issue. you can put allot of pills to a long piece of tape and the pillswill stick to it ..
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Good info! Great to know the actual step by step procedures!
Thank you
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Fizzy is quite correct, a dog can detect ridiculously small quantities of volatiles.
Okay then, that's more than merely informative, it's revelatory. So here's my question for vendors and customers alike: is there anyone -- ANYONE -- here on SR, any vendor, who operates at this level of contamination/emission control, and does the kinds of things outlined here?
Because if there is, I want to know so I can become their customer. And if not, guess I'll just have to move to California or something.
Thanks, FarmerBob
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Fizzy is quite correct, a dog can detect ridiculously small quantities of volatiles.
Okay then, that's more than merely informative, it's revelatory. So here's my question for vendors and customers alike: is there anyone -- ANYONE -- here on SR, any vendor, who operates at this level of contamination/emission control, and does the kinds of things outlined here?
Because if there is, I want to know so I can become their customer. And if not, guess I'll just have to move to California or something.
Thanks, FarmerBob
FarmerBob had some really great words of wisdom. Like him I take security very seriously and continually strive to improve. Selling bud to my friends and now on SR might be my hobby but it's no game. The consequences for all of us are too great.
Read about my current procedure when packaging http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=119458.150
Sending packages safely s a major time suck and if your vendors motivation is purely monetary they will take short cuts. Quiz your vendors on their safety procedures and if you don't feel they are sufficient for the risk DON'T ORDER.
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Read about my current procedure when packaging http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=119458.150
Gotta tell you man, your care with packaging is impressive. That's clearly the way to go.
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Hi, do you know if LSD Blotters are somehow visible on scanners/X ray machines? I assume they are not, but it is always good to know more :)
THNX
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:P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P :P
Interesting Readl....Thank you bra
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Here is a very informative post made by a USPS postal worker, it should be collated here with all this good shipping info:
dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=165838.0
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Very useful. Thank you for this information!
- IW
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Thanks for this post. I don't sell, but I sure do buy and I always like to ask questions about packaging before I do buy, so now I know what to ask.