Silk Road forums
Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: shippyship on October 04, 2013, 05:02 pm
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DPR created a free market against oppression and for the purpose of not harming others.
But when the site which was created to further that ideology is put in jeopardy, that ideology goes out the window and murder [for hire] becomes acceptable? Of a fictitious man with a fictitious wife and kids (although that aspect was unbeknownst to DPR). Also keep in mind this is the 2nd time DPR unsuccessfully solicited a M4H. I fully support his claimed ideology, but I don't think he truly did; he just pushed it on you all to make a cool $80 million while laughing all the way to the bank.
Had the aforementioned aspects not been part of the arrest warrant, I would consider him a martyr for the good fight; I just can't justify that position now, and I don't understand why an overwhelming majority of the Road holds him in God-like status. The grim reality is that all he did was amalgamate his skills to fill a niche market void that ultimately lead to his downfall due to carelessness.
This was originally going to be a response to a soon-to-be-dead thread, I am quoting Cirrus (a moderator) who was wildly accused of being LEO for correctly not providing details on the primary agent responsible for the Road's demise. Then I decided I wanted some community feedback on my opinion. Am I off-base or on-point? You decide.
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Well... there were two 'assassinations'. We need to determine whether DPR violated the non-aggression principle (NAP).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
In the first case an employee got arrested and DPR ordered a hit on this person in order to stop him talking. It is debatable, but in my experience and knowledge of libertarianism, the murder of a man that has not committed an act of aggression against you is a violation of NAP.
In the second instance an FBI agent was 'blackmailing' DPR, pretending to be a normal blackmailer. In this case one could argue self defense. Again, it is debatable. Depending on whether blackmail can be considered aggression or not (many would argue that it is not), DPR either violated NAP or did not violate NAP.
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The only relevant thing that caught my eye while skimming that was:
the non-aggression principle does not preclude violence used in self-defense or defense of others
One may argue that the 2nd hit was both self-defense and defense of others, but someone better at arguing may counter with there's a difference between preservation and defense, and that his actions were for preservation, not defense. I could argue with myself adopting both sides of the coin all day!
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Well... there were two 'assassinations'. We need to determine whether DPR violated the non-aggression principle (NAP).
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-aggression_principle
In the first case an employee got arrested and DPR ordered a hit on this person in order to stop him talking. It is debatable, but in my experience and knowledge of libertarianism, the murder of a man that has not committed an act of aggression against you is a violation of NAP.
In the second instance an FBI agent was 'blackmailing' DPR, pretending to be a normal blackmailer. In this case one could argue self defense. Again, it is debatable. Depending on whether blackmail can be considered aggression or not (many would argue that it is not), DPR either violated NAP or did not violate NAP.
Did the employee in the first incident not commit an act of aggression? I thought it was said that absconded with the bitcoins of users on the site.
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Without the killer hiring he would be a hero. We don't know how hard the FBI agents tried to make him do this however. He may have been manipulated by them all along and we only see the part which makes him look bad. Anyway, that's no excuse for murder.
In a country like the USA it's not a surprise however, as they are constantly killing people in other countries, and those people are not always bad guys. So many people there think they're some kind of cowboy in the wild west.
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@dread, I guess the definition of aggression is subjective. Are you making the statement in a roundabout way that: murder for theft is in-line with Libertarian ideology?
@Bazille, I don't have the first hit details in my head (nor if they were mentioned in the arrest warrant by anyone other than DPR to redandwhite) but the 2nd attempted hit of the family man appeared as those DPR sought the debtor of FriendlyChemist with the intention of having FC wiped out.
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Villain? How is that even a question? It amazes me how quickly some people have turned on this man, who created such an unprecedented beacon of hope for us all and sacrificed his very freedom in the process, after hearing one sided accusations from none other than the mainstream media and the very subhuman shills that have wrongfully criminalized all of us to begin with. For shame.
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Villain? How is that even a question? It amazes me how quickly some people have turned on this man, who created such an unprecedented beacon of hope for us all and sacrificed his very freedom in the process, after hearing one sided accusations from none other than the mainstream media and the very subhuman shills that have wrongfully criminalized all of us to begin with. For shame.
If you disregard preconceived notions based on DPRs statements as to his motives behind the Road, and accept the possibility that it could have been purely for profit (with or without firm belief in the ancillary benefit of freedom from oppression ideologies) it's very easy to see how he could rationally be portrayed as a villain. I'm taking my "accusations" directly from the arrest warrant, not the media. Time will tell if those accusations are legitimate, but there is no reason to believe otherwise.
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Villain? How is that even a question? It amazes me how quickly some people have turned on this man, who created such an unprecedented beacon of hope for us all and sacrificed his very freedom in the process, after hearing one sided accusations from none other than the mainstream media and the very subhuman shills that have wrongfully criminalized all of us to begin with. For shame.
Well put.
Do we actually know all this for a fact? Have I missed the solid evidence that verifies that DPR solicited a M4H?
If not, why would you take the FBI's word for it? What if the M4H part of the criminal complaint is a set-up charge designed to ensure he is vilified and convicted, in case the factual charges aren't enough?
Please realize that the FBI probably commits more crimes than any other organization in the world. For example, they are constantly setting up dim-witted Muslims in fake terrorism cases for the media to run another scaremongering frenzy and whip up hysteria and support for killing brown-skinned people overseas. The mafia's word is much more trustable than the FBI's.
shippyship: "Time will tell if those accusations are legitimate, but there is no reason to believe otherwise." -- Really?? You believe the people who say you're a criminal and want to deprive you of your freedom for smoking weed (or whatever it is that you used SR for)?
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Nobody says I'm a criminal. As some black guy in the 90s or 2000s put it "It ain't considered a crime unless they catch you."
Other than freedom fighting fuck-the-system conjecture and speculation, I don't think anything in the arrest warrant has been proven false as of yet. I'm sure there's plenty of public evidence available to circumstantially substantiate quite a bit of it as well. I give credence to the arrest warrant allegations not because I believe the gov't is honest, but because misrepresentation of facts in that could be substantial enough to have the case thrown out. It's more likely to be accurate for self-serving reasons rather than selfless dedication to stellar investigative work.
As far as the Muslim thing goes, they deserve it. If the FBI / DHS / CIA can set them up to a point where they agree to engage in terrorist activities, it would be even easier for a genuine AlahuAcchchchcbar terrorist to get them to join their cause. I'm fully supportive of nixing potential future terrorists.
What we know as fact is that DPR is being independently charged in Maryland for soliciting murder for hire, exclusive of the federal charges. There has to be pretty credible evidence to indict someone on such serious charges.
If you fail to acknowledge my points, you are a sheep blindly following your beloved leader, because he made you believe he believes in the same things you believe in.
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DPR- 1 person
The war on drugs- hundreds of thousands of people
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shippyship,
So if the charges are "serious" enough, you'll automatically believe it?
Misrepresentation of facts is far from the only tactic that is employed by the IC. You don't know who we are talking about here. The criminal organization(s) we are talking about are very good at creating legends, make-believe scenarios, planted evidence trails, unverifiable claims, etc.
DPR is no more a "beloved leader" to me than the FBI are a "beloved law enforcement agency" to you. Let's leave the ad hominems out.
All I'm saying is that you are giving undeserved credibility and authority to the very same goons that wouldn't hesitate to break into your house and arrest you and steal from you if they so much as suspect that you have a stash of weed.
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We have no reason not to believe the charges. What part of the arrest warrant do you specifically discredit? Everyone here knows DPR was the sole proprietor of SR, everyone here knows what SR is all about. A majority of the warrant we can corroborate due to our knowledge of SR, we can't conclusively tie them to RWU, but they certainly did a solid job of connecting the dots. Are you simply claiming that the murder for hire aspect was fabricated because that doesn't fit the image of DPR you hold so dearly? I'll readily admit some of it may not be true (inaccuracies / misinformation), but with such a high profile case they have a lot more to lose via fabrication than they have to gain.
I'm no more a fan of the po-lice than you are, but I'm also not a fan of psuedoLibertarians who let greed get the best of them and lost sight of what this was supposed to be all about in the first place, while putting hundreds of vendors and thousands of large scale buyers in jeopardy as the result of carelessness.
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Guilty until proven innocent? What is this, the UK?(I think that's how it works over there?)
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Villain? How is that even a question? It amazes me how quickly some people have turned on this man, who created such an unprecedented beacon of hope for us all and sacrificed his very freedom in the process, after hearing one sided accusations from none other than the mainstream media and the very subhuman shills that have wrongfully criminalized all of us to begin with. For shame.
I couldn't agree with this more. This is exactly what they want. They want people to turn against DPR. Nobody would care if DPR was having people whacked if the road was still up. He is a hero in my book.
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who is the admin they say he put a hit out on? does anyone know?
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@dread, I guess the definition of aggression is subjective. Are you making the statement in a roundabout way that: murder for theft is in-line with Libertarian ideology?
No you're right, I'm just saying that if I was risking life imprisonment and a guy was trying to victimize me I can't say I wouldn't do something drastic to preserve my freedom.
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@Mucho, I'm not the presiding judge in his case. I guess for the purpose of this discussion I'm assuming the allegations to be true (specifically murder for hire, I like almost everything else DPR did).
@dondada, the Road is down and I still don't care that he was trying to have people murked. I just don't think it's in-line with his self-proclaimed Libertarian beliefs that he used to generate 80 mil.
@dread, fa sho you right, but we aren't (at least I'm not) running around preaching "do no harm."
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DPR had the greatest of intentions if he did indeed choose to have someone assassinated.
It was for the benefit of the whole community , not himself.
The target had a number of users and vendors details. Imagine all the years in prison they would serve, the families it would ruin.
He was doing what he thought was best and I stand by his decision, although his choice of assassin was regrettably poor.
Just because the leader is gone , this war against oppression and free market will go on. And whoever is turning against the man that made all this possible is a weak traitor.
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One may argue the FriendlyChemist hit was primarily self-preservation with the ancillary benefit of protecting the individuals identities that FC was going to disclose. Just like one may argue he started the Road to make money with the ancillary benefit of furthering a cause he believed in at the time.
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I highly doubt that dpr knew he was going to make as much btc as he did when he first started the road.
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for starters i'm gonna point out that i have been on the wrong end of a fucked up accusation by LE on more than one occasion. that together with the crap i hear from politicians and the media on a daily basis means i no longer have faith or believe anything the feds or the govt say anymore. and i mean to the point that i wouldn't even be surprised if osama bin laden was innocent. i mean how many times do we have to witness their law be total bullshit before we start waking up to the fact they will do anything, say anything and even charge people with anything if it suits their agenda?
secondly i say to all the non violent, peaceful protest types, that i respect what you are all trying to achieve, and i wish i could be 100% behind you. but sometimes there does come a time when violence is necessary. not that i advocate the types who use it willy nilly to serve their own personal interests, but there does come a time when there is no other way, you just gotta do what you gotta do sometimes. that's the reality of life.
i'm certainly not gonna judge dpr on what its been said he might have done. especially considering who it is that's saying it. and even if he did, well i've not been in his position anyway, so i'm still not one to judge.
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I highly doubt that dpr knew he was going to make as much btc as he did when he first started the road.
Great point that has not really been made. He had an idea and there is no way with his experience/contacts he could ever have really handled what was on his plate. How did he expect to launder that money? His contacts were people here and that definitely helped in his demise.
No doubt someone we should all remember for starting this revolution and building our trust within the community, something which other sites lack atm. The guy is never going to be out of prison again, to also have assholes speaking badly of him is the last nail in the coffin and really disrespectful. Would make prison for him a lot worse.
Also with regards to violence, he clicked a few buttons to do what he felt necessary to protect us. If it is a choice between me getting arrested or a rat dying, I know which buttons I would click. Sad but true.
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I'm not pretending to know what *actually* went down, but from what has been detailed... DPR did not know whether the admin was a rat or not, it was conscious speculation on DPR's part. Maybe he thought "Hey, this guy's been disloyal already by stealing bitcoin from me, so why wouldn't he rat on me?" It's certainly logical, although the timing raises some questions. One would assume this admin to be one of DPR's most loyal contacts, given the fact that he organised the deal through him and that this admin had enough information to threaten Silk Road. He must have found out about the bitcoin theft almost simultaneously to the arrest. The FBI would not know about the stolen bitcoin... So I guess they just got *really* lucky that he found out *right then*, and then ordered a hit through the exact person he should be suspicious off. Something seems a bit off to me there, but who knows?
Something else to remember is that this person was arrested (and their life ruined), based on what we know, because of DPR's willingness to trust strangers on the dark web. Further, the murder-for-hire element to this story is going to paint an incredibly typical (of criminal enterprise) image to the world, an image we know not to be true, and one that DPR actively fought against. Silk Road was supposed to eliminate violence from the drug world, if only in this small microcosm. We all believed it had done that. Not quite, apparently.
I sympathise with DPR because he seems like a nice guy who got in over his head. But once you start making mistakes, and then trying to kill the victims of those mistakes because you think they might talk about your mistakes... Not cool. One good effect of this is that it's quelled the oftentimes cult-like reverence of the guy, when clearly it was his work (and not him) that was so laudable. I thank him for creating a model that people will no doubt continue to follow.
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Hero or villain is a matter of personal opinion.
To those oppressed by law enforcement, to the free thinkers and the open minded, he may have been a hero.
To those whose lives have been destroyed by their own drug addictions, and the addictions of others, he may well have been a villain.
What I think he really was was someone who stepped up and put their freedom on the line for a cause they believed to be greater than themselves. He was a game changer, and while I do believe that he got caught up in the money and maybe went a little power mad, his motivation was, first and foremost, one of pure ideology.
People like that, hero or villain, are at least one in a million, and whatever his crimes may have actually been, I don't think they should overshadow the respect that he deserves from all of us in the Silk Road community.
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Hero or villain is a matter of personal opinion.
To those oppressed by law enforcement, to the free thinkers and the open minded, he may have been a hero.
To those whose lives have been destroyed by their own drug addictions, and the addictions of others, he may well have been a villain.
What I think he really was was someone who stepped up and put their freedom on the line for a cause they believed to be greater than themselves. He was a game changer, and while I do believe that he got caught up in the money and maybe went a little power mad, his motivation was, first and foremost, one of pure ideology.
People like that, hero or villain, are at least one in a million, and whatever his crimes may have actually been, I don't think they should overshadow the respect that he deserves from all of us in the Silk Road community.
Well said brother.
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DPR had the greatest of intentions if he did indeed choose to have someone assassinated.
It was for the benefit of the whole community , not himself.
The target had a number of users and vendors details. Imagine all the years in prison they would serve, the families it would ruin.
He was doing what he thought was best and I stand by his decision, although his choice of assassin was regrettably poor.
Just because the leader is gone , this war against oppression and free market will go on. And whoever is turning against the man that made all this possible is a weak traitor.
This reminds me of something.
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/05/23/obama-i-make-the-drone-decisions.html
Obama himself makes individual kill decisions with drones abroad.
No judge. No jury. Just a big fat bomb.
Now here's your homework kids: write an essay explaining the difference between Obama using a drone to protect his people versus DPR using an assassin to protect his people. Anyone who writes more than 500 words on it without just writing gibberish gets an A.
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We have no reason not to believe the charges. What part of the arrest warrant do you specifically discredit? Everyone here knows DPR was the sole proprietor of SR, everyone here knows what SR is all about.
The second 'hit man' story is not anything Mr Ulbricht is being charged with, presumably because there seems to be absolutely no evidence for it. And while DPR might have been the "sole proprietor" I do not know that DPR was always Mr Ulbricht.
Now here's your homework kids: write an essay explaining the difference between Obama using a drone to protect his people versus DPR using an assassin to protect his people. Anyone who writes more than 500 words on it without just writing gibberish gets an A.
I don't fully agree with the principle (if anyone who had the DPR name knowingly solicited the killing of a real person they would plummet in my estimation) but I do like the idea :D
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DPR is a hero.
What about the assassinations, you say?
Well, you've got to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.
You can't have a revolution without spilling some blood.
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You can't have a revolution without spilling some blood.
Is that so?
I'm afraid I'm with John Lennon on this one.
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You can't have a revolution without spilling some blood.
Is that so?
I'm afraid I'm with John Lennon on this one.
and look what happened to him