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Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: Reason on September 06, 2013, 02:39 am

Title: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 06, 2013, 02:39 am
Hi!

This is an interesting question I've kicked around with a few people, especially so called environmentalists.  Now don't get me wrong, I generally like environmentalists, they're usually nice folks with an earthy-crunch quality and often have good weed.

However I've had a few occasions where those nice folks have gotten a bit tense when someone starts talking about eating meat, or taking a cruise, or getting a new race car.  "You're killing the planet!"  They cry!  "We have to save the planet!" 

Well...on this topic I'm with George Carlin, in that I'm pretty sure the planet is going to be around long after we're (humanity) is gone.  Life (along with the planet) I'm quite confident will carry on.  Even if we lit off every nuke in the world, I'd be totally blown away if life ceased to exist.  Not a chance IMO.  In that situation it basically meant that a natural life form (us) introduced extrodinary environmental changes that the rest of the life forms either had to adapt to or die (including us).

The environmentalists almost seem to suggest that we are somehow above nature,  outside of it, and somehow it's our responsibility to care for it.  I dunno about that.  Save the whales?  Fuck the whales...save the people (if necessary by eating them..the whales that is..not the people).  A lot of these folks point to the last few polar bears floating away to sea on a piece of ice that melted and broke off because of global warming and say "See...that's our fault, those animals are going to go extinct because of us!", whereas I then point to pigeons and dogs and say "see those animals are totally thriving because of us!".

What do environmentalists have agains dogs anyway!? 

If humanity makes things happen to the environment...isn't that "natural"?  Aren't we part of nature too!?

BTW:  Totally playing devils advocate here...as always I continue to ponder the idea...and look forward to your contributions to the discussion.

PS. I like polar bears (unless they're trying to kill me) and would never eat whale (way too fatty).

:-)

R.

Title: Re: Are human being part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FearTheReaper on September 06, 2013, 02:57 am
I'm a Carlinist too.   I've always thought the "Save The Planet" rallying cry was stupid.  Save?  Save what?  The Planet?  The planet doesn't give a flying fuck about us or what we're doing scurrying about on its microscopically thin layer of decaying matter, fungus and bacteria that we call "Nature".  We don't get any more attention outside of the Planet either.  Our Solar System, Galactic Arm, Galaxy, Cluster, Super Cluster, Universe, Multiverse, could fucking care less too!

Earth was here long before we came along and will be here long after we're gone.  It doesn't need us to save it, but we need it to save us.   

The cry should be "Save Us". And if that means destroying the planet to do it, then fucking bombs away!

ps.  No, I don't want to die.  Yes, I like nature.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FearTheReaper on September 06, 2013, 03:04 am
On the other hand, that doesn't mean we get to be pricks.   Driving polar bears to extinction sucks and if changing my habits a little bit could prevent that, I'm in.

My point is the hypocrisy of the statement "Save the Planet".  I have shit loads of empathy for all of nature.  I don't even kill bugs if I can avoid it.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Rastaman Vibration on September 06, 2013, 07:11 am
Humans are very much part of nature. Its similar to the way a parasite is part of nature. Or the way mold grows on a peach. It'll cover the entire peach and suck the life out of it. That's what we're doing to our planet. But its perfectly natural... and unfortunate...
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: mothraa on September 06, 2013, 11:29 pm
I've heard people refer to humanity as a virus, so the parasite idea seems pretty close to that. 

I think that of course we are part of nature, though many humans think we're above it.  I don't agree with the idea that we should save ourselves at the expense of other creatures necessarily, especially when we created the problems in the first place.  They really had no way to counteract us, just like most humans can't really counteract what is essentially a small group of actors speaking for all of the planet. 

When I hear people talking about animals like they have no ability to think or feel, I think that they're just egotistical and narrow-minded.  The same goes for when people think that humans are inherently better than any group of animals and deserve more than them.  Hell, they haven't done anything wrong, and they've been wronged, I think they deserve far more leeway than we do. 

There are some countries that are giving civil rights to animals and plant life, which I think is really an amazing concept considering where the thinking is in the rest of the world.  I don't think it's going to save most species that are dying out, and the Anthropocene (what many scientists are calling this era of human created ecological activity on a worldwide scale, basically replacing the Holocene since the Industrial Revolution period) is dangerously close to changing the face of the planet and its living makeup in the largest way that any lifeforms have done since, well, since O2 entered the atmosphere, perhaps. 

I get that people want to save themselves over other creatures, though, *if* it comes down to that, but what irks me is that it doesn't have to come down to that and yet it will likely do so.  But this is another stage in our emotional evolution and maturity, I keep telling myself, because it's a good way to stay sane about the affair. 

Personally I slow down or swerve for little fuzzy animals, but I kill the fuck out of spiders, roaches, and crane flies if they don't stay away from me.  So call me a hypocrite, call me a human.  But yeah, the planet will live on, and eventually it will regenerate the mountains, and clean the streams and air.  The plastic and other land litter we leave behind, well.  Who knows what that will become down the line.  The earth could very well become icy cold and then burning hot and it could break down into its components again, or it could remain a dirty wasteland free from all living creatures.  There's also the possibility that whichever species of plant and animal survive the human-made atrocity this earth is potentially becoming (what with pollution AND chemical interference) might evolve and evolve and evolve and while we lose individual creatures and individual species, we will regain the planet in new, ever-changing designs as different species take the stage for their time as masters of the planet.


This was fun to think about so thanks for the thread.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 07, 2013, 02:02 am
Thanks everyone for chiming in!  I guess the consensus of Silk Roaders is that...yep we're all natural!  I don't suppose I should be surprised at this, I've found my fellow SR travelers to be a very rational lot.

I guess the one thing that I've felt a vibe about in this thread that I'm not in agreement with is a common theme about how bad humanity is (we're like a virus, or that we'll kill ourselves off and the plantet will get better...that kind of thing).  I am soundly pro-human.  I love humans! 

Why?  Well we are just really awesome critters.  We build spaceships and video games, we are just super smart.  We fuck not just for procreation but also for the sheer joy of it, we're super sexy.  We're hugely social, and remarkably empathetic and compasionate (as evidence I cite all the kindness and compasion to vulnerable bugs and animals that so many whom have responded to this thread have expressed). 

I find it strange that people look at the occasional nasty thing humans do and basically say "well there ya go...humans are shit", but somehow ignore the far more common acts of kindness, compassion, and reason that are the absolute norm for people.  If you were walking in back of an old lady and she stumbled, would you not absolutely instintively rush to her aid?  Of course you would (or at least 99% of everyone would).  Why?  Because your're a natural human...and you're really nice.

Polar bears on the other hand...not so much (he'd eat the old lady for sure).   
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: AllDayLong on September 07, 2013, 03:33 am
Reason, I agree with you that most humans are empathetic and kind creatures. However, when we look at the big picture and our actions as a whole, what I see is obscene. Being rich is glorified while we leave so many people on their own to die in poverty. We are divided along bullshit lines by the media. Ethnicity, wealth, political parties, drug users.... Those in power care little about others.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 10, 2013, 12:38 am
Reason, I agree with you that most humans are empathetic and kind creatures. However, when we look at the big picture and our actions as a whole, what I see is obscene. Being rich is glorified while we leave so many people on their own to die in poverty. We are divided along bullshit lines by the media. Ethnicity, wealth, political parties, drug users.... Those in power care little about others.

Yeah, it's hard to argue with that.  My theory is that in the big scheme of things we're still a really young species.  I mean, a lot of people still believe in angels and demons, and a lot of people don't believe in evolution.  To me this is strong evidence of (not very innocent) youth. 

I think we're moving in the right direction though.  I hear a lot of people think the opposite, but I think if you look back on history we're trending toward more kindness and reason. 

For example look at the barbarism of middle ages or the spanish inquisition or what the ancient egyptions or Myans were like...we still do bad unspeakable things don't get me wrong...but a lot of the time these things aren't well tolerated by the rest of humanity (I think Syria is about to find this out).

More people are getting education, more women and underprivledged people are getting human rights, fewer people go hungy or live in squalor, we've conquered loads of diseases. 

We may still have an overall score of D-...but we're heading for that D...and I bet someday we'll make it to C or B.  Who knows...maybe we'll make the honor roll!  :-)
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: verdant_world on September 10, 2013, 01:31 am
Great thread!

i wish i had the faith in humanity some express here, however i dont- i as well try to respect all living organisms ( with few exceptions) but i cant imagine that the majority of the other 7 billion people feel the same- i think probably most people are just concerned with their own survival and cant or wont see beyond themselves- is this nature? is this natural? IDK

but i think humans are one of if not the only species that is able to choose thier actions based on reason , abstract thought and delayed gratification ( ive heard of that, but never managed it- haha)-

but realistically i feel that in the time since the indstrial revolution we have put this planet on a path that will lead to SEVERE collapse- not in our life time, or maybe even a thousand years, but it is IMHO inevitable ( at the rate we are going) and the industries and companies and politicains that are controlled by said interests, just dont care, in fact its in thier best interest to continue to make profits while thee is still a viable environment to exploit, is this natural, is this nature ? IDK, but it is certainly human.

and as humans we ae given some time here and the ability to choose our attitude about it- and for me i try to take all the negativity and turn it into a sense of urgency for me to enjoy it, and if i can share it with others- because ive seen things change in front of my eyes and its got a ling slide down before anything starts to get better- for example i read where the annual migration in north america of monarch butterflies- one of the greatest mass migrations on the planet, which has been on going since time immemorial, is concerably small this year- but the truth is that is a miracle its lasted this long, they all congregate in a small area of mexico and if that area was not protected- it could have been logged long ago and thier breeding ground removed in one season and their continued existence would be tenuous at best- but fortunately its a tourist attraction

and the examples can go on and on- mostly due to habitat loss, or over harvesting or pollution, fro example another of the great migrations on earth is the blue fin tuna which is slowly being hunted into extinction, and as they become fewer in size and number, their value increases and they are hunted more fiercely, and because they travel such huge distances even if they are protected in some areas, they will be caught in others- and there are no tourist protecting their breeding grounds-

another example is the use of  DDT in north america in the 50's & 60's that almost extinguished the peregrine falcon and the bald eagle-

the examples never end

but i guess my point is the balance of the natural world is (IMHO) irrevocably unbalanced- so go enjoy it while we've got it-

but i really dig this thread and im glad to read all the optimism- thanks
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Psytanium on September 10, 2013, 10:05 am
Our life is dependent on the eco system stability. If we couldn't find and colonize another planet, we will die after a long battle with everything.

I like this scene from The Matrix
Humans According to Mr. Smith  8):

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals.

Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: NickNack on September 10, 2013, 11:52 am
Wow... I'm way too fucked up to read all these long posts, sorry.

But it's about plastic!  Were fucking here to make plastic!.... the Earth cant do it without us!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBRquiS1pis

 :)
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Isobetadine on September 11, 2013, 02:00 am
Hi!

This is an interesting question I've kicked around with a few people, especially so called environmentalists.  Now don't get me wrong, I generally like environmentalists, they're usually nice folks with an earthy-crunch quality and often have good weed.

However I've had a few occasions where those nice folks have gotten a bit tense when someone starts talking about eating meat, or taking a cruise, or getting a new race car.  "You're killing the planet!"  They cry!  "We have to save the planet!" 

Well...on this topic I'm with George Carlin, in that I'm pretty sure the planet is going to be around long after we're (humanity) is gone.  Life (along with the planet) I'm quite confident will carry on.  Even if we lit off every nuke in the world, I'd be totally blown away if life ceased to exist.  Not a chance IMO.  In that situation it basically meant that a natural life form (us) introduced extrodinary environmental changes that the rest of the life forms either had to adapt to or die (including us).

The environmentalists almost seem to suggest that we are somehow above nature,  outside of it, and somehow it's our responsibility to care for it.  I dunno about that.  Save the whales?  Fuck the whales...save the people (if necessary by eating them..the whales that is..not the people).  A lot of these folks point to the last few polar bears floating away to sea on a piece of ice that melted and broke off because of global warming and say "See...that's our fault, those animals are going to go extinct because of us!", whereas I then point to pigeons and dogs and say "see those animals are totally thriving because of us!".

What do environmentalists have agains dogs anyway!? 

If humanity makes things happen to the environment...isn't that "natural"?  Aren't we part of nature too!?

BTW:  Totally playing devils advocate here...as always I continue to ponder the idea...and look forward to your contributions to the discussion.

PS. I like polar bears (unless they're trying to kill me) and would never eat whale (way too fatty).

:-)

R.

 ???

There is no such thing like being OUT of nature.
Just does not exist.

Just one of our expressions for the perception of stability we observed in our very very short lifetime.

I understand the idea behind everything that carlin says and it is certainly true for big chunk of people.
But classifying this as 100% truth or seeing it as a philosophy is just idiotic.
It is mostly entertaining correct assesments of us humans galloping around the planet in mass or mainstream behaviour within a group of people and fun debunking of hypocritical aspects of social construction/ideas.

HOWEVER it does not make it less true that we must save the planet or species on the verge of extinct,even when your reasoning behind it is not altruistic or whatever.
If not for pure and altruistic reasons then one should want this for selfish reason.
Unless you are one of those types that would have no problem to defecate where you consume your meals.
The most awesome things we build/invented or produced are copied from animals or something out there in nature.

Even robots in the future are part of nature.
And a copy of us:).

Our life is dependent on the eco system stability. If we couldn't find and colonize another planet, we will die after a long battle with everything.

I like this scene from The Matrix
Humans According to Mr. Smith  8):

I'd like to share a revelation that I've had during my time here. It came to me when I tried to classify your species and I realized that you're not actually mammals.

Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment but you humans do not. You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus. Human beings are a disease, a cancer of this planet.

I don't want to freak you out but...
A virus is part of nature.

As is cancer.

And same can be said for almost EVERY living organism on this planet.
You have seen  hitchcocks birds right?? :P
Or the simpsons version of it with dolphins right :P.

Ecosystems also get into balance with extinction of certain species due to being eaten by others alot :D.

But i do love that quotation from that matrix movie.
So much truth to how we are behaving.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 11, 2013, 02:01 am
Wow... I'm way too fucked up to read all these long posts, sorry.

But it's about plastic!  Were fucking here to make plastic!.... the Earth cant do it without us!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NBRquiS1pis

 :)

LMAO!  Another thing that's awesome about humans...we totally rule in the world of humor!  :-)
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Mr Candy on September 14, 2013, 05:41 am
Very interesting topic, and I've put quite a lot of thought into this.  Primarily, yes, I absolutely do think we are natural, and not 'above' it. 

I think there are several different perspectives you can take on this subject.  One belief that I do hold is that, universally speaking, human life is as valuable, or should I say, has as little value, as animals.  In other words, a human life intrinsically has the same value as a bugs, which I think some people have great difficulty agreeing with.  In the grand scheme of the universe, we are incredibly insignificant.

However, as a species, of course we are going to value ourselves over other animals, and will be concerned primarily with our own development over other species', this seems perfectly natural to me. 

I wouldn't say we have some universal moral duty to protect the rest of nature per se, as you said we are a part of it, and simply a very advanced part of it.  I think it is definitely relative, hence why some people prioritise it more than others, or don't really feel a duty to at all.

My own personal belief is of course that despite my opinion that I first explained, I appreciate the complexity and beauty of the world and its creatures, so it does sadden me when I hear about a species dying out, or whatever, but of course, this is perfectly natural as well, almost every species that has ever existed on Earth has become extinct.  At the same time, I find animal cruelty completely sickening and unnecessary.  I think things like conservation is noble, but what does worry me is when people start to prioritise animals over humans in negative ways. 

I can't remember the exact details, but I remember hearing about some research facility that did animal testing, and protestors mailed one of those long tubes that posters are delivered in to one of the scientists in charge.  It was basically a nail bomb that would detonate when opened, and his four year old daughter picked it up, fortunately she didn't open it and her father called the police.  Dissent is fine, but to that extent I think it's completely unjustified regarding animal rights. 
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: soviet on September 14, 2013, 06:16 am
I believe many people confuse "unnatural" with "man-made". Being that the world is natural, and man exists as part of the world, how could ANYTHING be unnatural?

Steel cities are just as natural as ant hills. Ants build hills to survive; humans build cities to survive. 
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FirePharmacy on September 15, 2013, 01:15 am
Great topic!  One of the things I love about the SR is the abundance of intelligent discussion and debate here in the forums. 

The more developed technology and machines become, the further from the "circle of life", and natural selection human's become.  Some may even argue humans are eliminating "Natural selection" as it's been known for thousands of years.  We no longer rely on hunting and fishing to survive.  For thousands of years, survival meant a human had to have a wide range of exceptional skills.  Early "man" had to learn to work with the weather, seasons, and traveling herds.  "He" had to learn to not over hunt the herds, ensuring plenty of meat year after year.  "Man" had to put a great deal of thought into working with the circle of life so as not to deplete it.  Naturally, a harmony developed.   The more "advanced" we become with technology, the less we rely on these ancient insights and wisdom.  I see this as a loss for humanity.

The amount of energy needed for just "living" was great.   People had to not only be physically strong, but mentally acute.  Also, developing important relationships to ensure cooperation for survival were necessary.  Today, if you have money, you really don't "need" any other skills to survive.  Most people today have no idea what to hunt during all the months of the year.  Very few can make their own shelter.   Having cash means we have essentially found the cheat code for survival.   Most people don't ever think about how they're going to survive.  Can you imagine having to think of this every single day?  And having to make daily decisions that ensure survival or end you and your family's life?   The world is a far different place now.

I think most environmentalists have good intentions.  I am always surprised at how little some really understand about the actual circle of life.  One example is the overpopulation of deer in residential areas.  It's a fact that too many deer is a bad thing for the environment.  Wolves naturally eat deer, but they've been hunted close to extinction.  Thinning the overpopulated deer herds helps lower disease rates, and ensures plenty of food for pregnant doe's and fawns.  Yet so many environmentalists are against hunting deer?  Most people who hunt deer eat all the meat.  Some use the hide for a blanket.    Many hunters say a small prayer of thanks to the deer when it's killed.  In a way, the hunted deer lives on through the people who ingest it's meat.   I don't see how that same "environmentalist" can go to the grocery store and buy cow meat from an animal that lived in torturous conditions it's entire life.

And reproduction has certainly changed how man is evolving!   We can now produce human's in a lab dish.  This to me is scarey stuff!  I think bypassing natural reproduction is asking for trouble.   I can understand a young couple who's been unsuccessfully trying to get pregnant, and thus getting fertility treatments, or eggs implanted.   But creating animals and people in a pietre(spelling?)  dish? 
 
There is a certain balance in the animal kingdom.  It's violent, but it's also reliable and sensible.  Everything happens in cycles.  Seasons, weather, hibernation, new spring growth, traveling herds, etc.  Being aware of and being able to benefit from these known cycles made for a very rich life.  Knowing that something wants to eat you is as real as it gets.   

To thrive today, most emphasis is placed upon developing a set of business skills.  Once the money is made, we don't have to worry about hunting, fishing, collecting and drying wood for heat and cooking, making clothing to keep us warm, maintaining a good shelter, and solidifying community relationships for our survival.  So I'd sadly argue that we are no longer part of nature.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FollowIcculus on September 15, 2013, 01:50 am
I believe many people confuse "unnatural" with "man-made". Being that the world is natural, and man exists as part of the world, how could ANYTHING be unnatural?

Steel cities are just as natural as ant hills. Ants build hills to survive; humans build cities to survive.
Yeah but ants build hills instinctively and need them to survive.  Many people live outside cities.  They are not essential to human survival and have not existed as long as our species has.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: gloomybear on September 15, 2013, 10:06 am
I was discussing this topic with some mates the other day, and to a certain extent everyone is correct as it's down to perception and language.

Everything on this planet is part of nature, some things may be modified by forces from a non-human source (perceived as natural, the Sun or a volcano) and others from a human using tools, one appears random/chaotic and another with intent but the result is the same. We are a product of nature and so the things we produce must also be from 'nature' at least vicariously. I get that we have consciousness and that separates us from many of the other inhabitants of the planet, and perhaps it does come with some form of responsibility, but primarily for our own survival - which relies on the survival of our natural environment. We share at least that with every other species on the planet.

The idea that we could or even need to save the planet is ridiculous, what we can and should be trying to save is the environment that allows us to live. If a species is so stupid that it will cut down rain forests and therefore some of it's own air supply to fund the paper industry, it perhaps deserves to become extinct. Hemp could produce all of the world's paper far more efficiently with far less impact on life on this planet and yet we choose wood-based paper. What kind of a government decides that fracking is a good decision when there is clear evidence globally that it probably isn't? Even the smallest risk of water contamination should deter us especially when there are other options, not because we want to save the planet but because we should want to save ourselves!

It's not us that are unnatural, it's the concepts we created - money for example, money runs this world, it is a force as great as gravity for most of us and yet it is completely alien. It's money that leads to our lives being at risk and those of other species. We'll do anything for a bit of money, and more fool us.

In the end we are not that important at all, who knows how many worlds there have been before ours even on this planet, a few billion years is a very long time, we may fuck ourselves out of existence but the Earth will barely notice we were even here. Another glitch. Hopefully the next lot will do a bit better (possibly Ant-people?).




Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: soviet on September 15, 2013, 10:18 am
I believe many people confuse "unnatural" with "man-made". Being that the world is natural, and man exists as part of the world, how could ANYTHING be unnatural?

Steel cities are just as natural as ant hills. Ants build hills to survive; humans build cities to survive.
Yeah but ants build hills instinctively and need them to survive.  Many people live outside cities.  They are not essential to human survival and have not existed as long as our species has.

We build cities instinctively and need them to survive as well, at least if we want to maintain such a high population. The people that live outside of cities live in smaller communities, much like our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Communities, villages, towns, tribes, etc...are all essentially smaller versions of cities.   
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 18, 2013, 09:33 pm
If human was a part of nature they would know they are herbavores..

Now they think they are scavangers and that they lack empathy for the animals who gets tortured and killed by a machine behind closed doors, humans are very good at ignoring the negative sides of themselves and society, and they are the ones who will fail now when Earth is going to react to what humanity has done to her under the last 100 years.

Chinese who eat dogs are really sick people compared to the people in the western world who love their cats and dogs, but the pigs and cows are less worth and they can be tortured behind closed doors thats no problem for the people in the western world.

Its a problem if they did look into a slaughterhouse then they would stop eating animals instantly, so its important that we keep the door closed so we can treat humans for their disease later when they get sick. How else we goiing to survive if we dnt let people get sick so we can make money from the sicknesses?

Im sorry but most of humanity are psycopaths and they think they can live of other beings missery just because "the god" in the bible told them humanity can take advantage of every animal on the planet. =(

The designer of all life did not design books , the designer of all life designed the feelings inside you that lets you know right from wrong and that its wrong when animals gets tortured.

The problem is probably that people are atheist dumbasses or religious dumbasses and they dont belive in higher powers and they also believe in death since otherwise the ones cntrolling humanity would have some problems if people know that there is  no end to life and that wha you do in this life will deside what you will be doing in your next life.

Fear of death and ignorance to the higher powers in this world is probably the rootcause.

What youre opinion?
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 19, 2013, 12:47 am
Quote
If human was a part of nature they would know they are herbavores..
[\Quote]

Not sure if I can agree on this part Roger.  Our closest animal relatives (Chimps and Bonobos) are firmly omnivores (they eat pretty much anything, including meat), and so are we.  Are teeth are designed to be able to process both meat and veggies.  Also the forward position of our eyes suggests at least some predatory ability (not to mention our penchant for violence).  The first tools humans devised were almost certainly for hunting.

Quote
Im sorry but most of humanity are psycopaths and they think they can live of other beings missery just because "the god" in the bible told them humanity can take advantage of every animal on the planet.
[\Quote]

Nah...just because we eat meat doesn't make us bad people.  That we allow suffering in the world animal or human, just suggests that we have a limited ability to empathize with others.  Although I'd argue that humans are far more empathetic than most other animals (we're pretty nice monkeys when you get down to it).   :-)
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 19, 2013, 01:59 am
Man can accept god saving humanity, but man can't accept being a god himself and save humanity himself..
/ I dont remember who said it, might be Tsarion.

People are really afraid now since they know they aint living in harmony with nature or animals..

People think they will be alright but inside them they know it will not continue forever if you aint living in
harmony with nature since when to much nature has been transformed into piles of garbage then its game over..
They just continue consuming the bullshit products created to break so people have to buy new produucts for ever,
or should I say until its game over since things like that can never continue forever.

Electrical and hydrogen cars exists, people ignore it and continue burning oil and destroying the planet and they believe they aint responsible hahahaa

Only if they knew they are responsible for every action they do on this planet, then they would not be destroying their homeplanet because they
dumbed down beyond belif and they dont realise its game  over soon if we dont change.

Prophecys are created to show humanity the future so every human can change their ways and change the path and avoid the prophecy,
the bible contains a prophecy about lucifer, the marks of the beast and dooomsday, and when Obama talks about eveyone should put a
microchip in your arm.. Then will just do it since they dont know they are walkin into the abyss and loosing their souls when they put a
microchip of the beast into their body... game over.

People will get the chance to become millionairs by getting chipped thru the NESARA proposition, little do they know theywill loose their
soul and dreams and ideas will never happen again since having a soul is kinda special while the only ones who dont know that are the
soulpeople, sunchildren, humanity..

Money aint shit, its a slaverytool used to destroy humanity and Earth.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: jundullahi on September 19, 2013, 07:08 am
I believe many people confuse "unnatural" with "man-made". Being that the world is natural, and man exists as part of the world, how could ANYTHING be unnatural?

Steel cities are just as natural as ant hills. Ants build hills to survive; humans build cities to survive. 

Right on target.

It curtain that man is a part of nature.

And there are thing that are unnatural. Like incest.
Well any
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FirePharmacy on September 19, 2013, 05:54 pm
If human was a part of nature they would know they are herbavores..
\

I have to disagree my friend!  Human's being "herbavores" has just become a choice for some groups of people over the past few hundred years.  Man has been eating meat for at least 20,000 years.  Our teeth are shaped to bite and chew it.   This has evolved over thousands of years. 

It's true for cultures from every corner of the globe. 

Is a deer that gets hunted by an experienced hunter a worse experience than the deer that get hit by cars because they are so overpopulated?  Does a vegetarian person think it's better to leave that animal's flesh to rot and not be used for nourishment?  Once an animal has passed it's free from it's flesh either way.   Death is almost instant when hit directly in the heart.   

Meat is made of all the amino acids needed for rebuilding tissues and for growing. Vegetarian foods must be combined to include all the amino acids needed for proper nutrition.  The truly "balanced vegetarian" diets these days are that way because of lots of modern science and years of research.  They did not evolve naturally as a result of what was available in the environment. 

They would have been impossible to mainain year round even 200 years ago.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 19, 2013, 07:32 pm
You have to disagree because you still believe bullshit and you dont have the skills to look it up on google, the differences between herbavores, scavangers and omnivores..

Herbavores have jaws that move sideways for grinding herbs, carnivores bite straight and it for biting and killing prey and a jaw that goes sideways would not work for that.

Herbavores have a very long bowel, DESIGNED to digest herbs over long periods of time, while carnivores has a short bowel for getting rid of the meats fast before it gets rotten.

Carnivores and scavangers dont have to cook their animals to be able to eat them since they got substances in their stomach that is DESIGNED to deal with the bacterias of rotten or raw meats.
 
Herbavores need to cook an kill the bacteria in foods before eating dead animalmuscles.

You did not evolve from monkey you damn monkey, aliens created humanity in labs then they had to go because of the karma they created when dealing with genetic modification.

You just writing lies upon lies and you have no idea that karma does not give a fuk if you know what youre talkin about or if you just spreading bullshitinfo because youre dumbed down. If people listen to the lies you repeat because the beast who tricked you to repeat that bullshit without having science to back up what youre sayin, then youre messing yoursellf up by creating karma.

deprogram that bullshit the schools taught you since it very backwardsinfo..

if you care about yourself that is but I know you dont since if you did you would had noticed some lies on this sick planet of misdirected love.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 19, 2013, 07:41 pm
them "leftover" canines comes from the different DNAs  used when they created humanity, they used lizaerds and a bunch of different genes fro all over the universe when they created humanity.

You cant kill anyone using those teeth and if you tried the only thing you would be killing is you teeth.

How come you "know" humans are omnivores and scavangers when we dont even have teeth that can handle eating meats without using knives and forks?

becase you a fkn dummy and you believe the slaveowners controlling what you learn in schools,, would never lie to a slave in training about the truth of this world?

Yeah i know..

Deprogram that bullshit if you care about yourself!

Peace
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 19, 2013, 07:53 pm
Its funny to see  you idiots believing slavery is over while accepting to be forced to go to schools and train to be a docile slave that follows orders without questioning..

Since why in the hell on Earth would they give you any valuble info at all if youre going to be a docile slave they can make money from using you as slavelabour?

The schools dont force kids to be there for their own good, the slaveowners said -we need slaves to do the jobs now when slavery has ended, so they created jobs and a fakeconomy, slaveconomy to make you able to feel free while they get rich from takin most of your salary because they "own" your workplace and that makes them entiled to profit from slavelabour since ofcourse people should be able to make money from other peoples efforts, how else would we be able to create psycopaths who wanna controll humanity thru a demoncrazy, I mean democracy..
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FirePharmacy on September 19, 2013, 11:25 pm
RogerPantade I'm not sure why you are personally insulting me saying "I don't have the skills to look it up on google."  If you were truly intelligent you would see that what we have here is a difference of opinion.  I listened to your points, but you are more focused on angry personal attacks on anyone who dares to have an opinion differing from yours. 

You know nothing about me or my intelligence level.  Since you want to go attacking my "skills", I have a Masters Degree in Business, and a tested IQ of 141. What's yours? 

It doesn't even matter I can see you've wasted enough of my time.   Have fun on your private little rant against all who don't conform to your view.  Let this thread die in obscurity as it should since you started insulting everyone here.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 20, 2013, 01:12 am
Thats the thing Im talkin about, your opinions does not matter since everyone can use google and get the info im talkin about, I know youre opinion is that what I know is just my opinions and we have different opinions, but I dont have opinions like that i let the evidence speak first, then I make my opinion based on it..

You do the opposite you have opinions on the evidence and your opinion is that there is no evidence hahahaa

Now i do know much about your intelligence level since youre telling me about the slavecathegory you have been trained to be able to do.

My slavecathegory is a computer software programmer.. But my job is truthseeking, sharing and caring with the ones I can reach.

Im not insulting anyone Im insulting the idea of having opinions on the evidences avalible online in theese last days. I dont know you I only know what you write, so how in the hell on Earth can I insult YOU by writing about your stupid opinions based on belifs.. Youre sounding like one of those girls who think their self confidense was destroyed by w hat someone else said.. But its a impossibility to make you feel bad about yourself if you aint bad yourself and knows about it.

You probably realised youre a part of animals cruelty by eating animals and now you wanna tell me that Im the problem since you cant admit its embarresing that someone had to wake you up and tell you its wrong to be a part of animals cruelty because others do it.

I know how you feel since I was ashamed of myself for having to listen to someoone who woke me up and made me look into a slaughterhouse just to realise what I was a part of, none should have to wake me up to not be a part of animal cruelty, since I was a psycopath by just eatning animals and ignoring what they have felt going into the slaughterhouse to be tortured and killed so I can eat shitty dead foods and kill myself slowly..

Its all love tho but in this world of misdirected love I know many will see this as some kind of attack but trust me, i dont know you and I have been in your shoes before so I innerstand what youre going thru reading this truths I was sharing.

And its not easy admitting youre a dumbass who is a part of animal cruelty just because aliens thaught you that youre a damn omnivore, and you trust them thats why you never used google to look it up what kind of bodydesign the human body is. =(

Anyway, its all love, but its real love I know it might be new to many of you but some of you know what thisis and they will listen and take care of themselves and thats all that I wanted.

Peace
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Reason on September 20, 2013, 01:15 am
...

You did not evolve from monkey you damn monkey, aliens created humanity in labs then they had to go because of the karma they created when dealing with genetic modification.


Uhm...OK....well you had my attention when you were providing alternative definitions for the various types of life forms (which seemed a reasonable course of discussion).  However then I got to this part, and although I suspect I'll regret it...I just have to ask...pray tell.. where did you get the information about humans being created by aliens in labs again? 

Now your earlier comment about Google suggests that it may be leading you astray.  I hate to break it to you old chum, but if you rely on good ol' Google too much, well ...you might find some information that's just not 100% accurate all the time.

At any rate, I'll take your challenge on the definitions, but it will take a little time, so I'll respond later on. 

Until then.

Peace.

R. 
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 20, 2013, 01:40 am
It says humanity was created in labs on all the pyramidewalls and monuments all over the planet since they built those so we could evolve and know there are higher powers in this world, but I actually heard this from the creators themselves since they are present and they still got love for humanity but they know about the evil aliens that enslaved humanity after they left because of karmareasons when they had created humanity.

So our goodhearted alien creators from higher dimensions ar here for the ones who are still humans and they want us to know about the aliens who anslaved humanity and that their slavery is over and its about to get out of this hole before the planet turns into a cold desert just like the evil aliens want.

The evil ailens dont have a home and most of humanity dont cae about their home so they are moving in and eating most of humanity because they ate animals and created karma that made them stuck in this dimension, forced to be food for the ones at te top of the foodchain.
Stop the challenging since this is not a competition , thats slavethinking if you think Im here to compete with yall since you already have all the answers if you just repeat what the slaveowners old you to repeat.

Normal clever humans will look it up thru the internet if they hear something important like its a fire in the house or aliens are spaying the sky to block the sun out so they can come down and eat people.. Normal people would listen with big open ears if someone came with info like that.

You have no evidence that politicians are humans since they start wars and divide and conquer humanity like its a game, and it is a game for them but we also in this game of life and ther are many aliens in human bodies to.

They created us as sungods basicly and our pineal gland is the seat of the soul and our soul is the sun, and theese aliens controlling humanity are soul-less and the sun burns the shit out of them thats why they have to block it out and make you drink flouride and poisons to calcify/disable your pineal gland, in other words youre higher being then them and they cant even come close to you without a soul of their own so they have to calcify your pineal gland before they can take over your body. and thats what they are doing, they are going to try to get to a higher dimension by takin peoples bodies over and try to do the rebirth in 4-7 years, but they will burn at the gates/portals since we are going thru the sun to the 5th dimension and only the ones who is crystalized on the inside will be able to do that and them are the ones who eat living fruit and veggies instead of dead animal and human muscles.

Look up the hidden history of humanity since they hav found stonetablets in a undestructable material that shows the hidden history of humanity and how the pyramids was buildt and why, they was basicly buildt to make humanity evolve very fast since the time was short, just a few tousands of years until rebirth. only 4-7 years until it happens now.

It will be chaos on the plaet until then tho just like it says in the bible and on the pyramidewalls probably also. Its no secret, only to the sleeping sheeple who think everything is wonderfull.

I dont know if that answered your question or anything since im still unclear about if it was even a question or a damn competitionpruposal since Im not so into that, Im into sharing and caring but its no competition an i dont like calling myself any kind of cathegories in this world, not even a swede since the countries was created by the slaveowners just to divide and conquerer.

Shure call youreslef americans or mexicans or swedes, but youre just calling yourself the cathegory that slaveowners created for you to put yourself into it and get stuck int this dimension.

Take care man, much love, peace
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FirePharmacy on September 20, 2013, 09:18 am
Looks like schizophrenia to me.

While he's on Google studying "slavelabour" I'll be out in the woods living.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FartBomber on September 20, 2013, 12:13 pm
To bad this thread derailed a bit, lets get back on track!

In the end I think it all ends up on what the definition is that we give to the word nature. Personally I dont think that there is such a thing as free choice and that everything what happens happens because of the fact that our universe (multiverse?) is a state machine reacting on previous actions into a never ending chaotic state. Since that is all the same you can argue that either everything must be natural or nothing must be.

Is the state machine we live in (are part of) natural or not? That is the question and its one we will never figure out. We will probably not even find a definition of the word natural what everyone can agree on.

Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 20, 2013, 06:14 pm
watch this and then hear me out:

Doug Stanhope - Animal "trainers" are assholes http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eavEZfVrUjw

humans are trained to jump  thru hoops when kids gets foorced to go to school because governments and parents know their kids will be best of as slaves when they get older, so a few people can get rich from their workefforts..

Its the same as the killerwhale who bite the head of its trainer because she holds the food infront of the killerwhales face tryin to make the killerwhale act in unnatural ways.

Nature is about to bite the head of humans who live outside of nature and enjoy eating animals and watchin wild animals in cages and jumping thru hoops since human slaves like to watch animal slaves do unnatural things instead of walkin into nature and watchin the animals in nature.

humans are a part of nature, the beast aliens want us outside of nature, and they want us to enjoy watchin animal slaves outside of their natural life.

Am I wrong about this you think?

Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: Hungry ghost on September 20, 2013, 08:54 pm
Yes. You are. And we know who you are and are going to crush you like a bug.A little bug, roger. A bug.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: wackmanblu on September 20, 2013, 11:04 pm
My belief - we're as much a part of nature as the trees, seas and mountains. We, humanity, are just doing what we have evolved to do - think, create, destroy, fuck-up, redeem ourselves .. we are what we are.

I think that it's somewhat arrogant of us to assume that we're somehow outside of the world from which we came. I think it's a mistake to try and keep everything exactly the same as it was before modern humans built cities and factories. The natural world outside of humanity has made many many drastic climate changes all on it's own long before homo-sapiens showed up; at least 4 ice ages and a multitude of warming periods. If for some misguided reason we collectively decide that we should have no (zero) environmental impact on the world then at what state should it be kept? Pre-industrial revolution? Pleistocene ages? Jurassic era? 1980?

Having said all that we probably want to keep things nice and comfy for future human existence. Moderate regulation of greenhouse gas and environmental chemical restrictions are probably a wise thing as too much change too quickly probably ain't all that great either. This is what we are most likely meant to do as our natural innate intelligence and human wisdom kind of points in that direction. I'm fairly certain though that everything is as it was meant to be. The natural world is not always a kind and gentle place.

... OR we could listen to Roger and rebel against aliens who created us to be sun-god slaves before they eat us .. or something. I apologize to Roger if he is in fact schizophrenic.
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: RogerPantade on September 21, 2013, 12:01 am
They have been dumping barrels of nuclear waste in the world ocean since 1940's. Fact look it up. They even dropped barrels on the boats of Greenpeace once while they was filming it. Its avalible for the world to see on youtube.

All fishes in the oceans have poinson in them from paperproduction-factories or mills or what ever.. This is something they tested in Sweden where I live, and there in not one single sea of water in Sweden that has poisonfree fishes.

In the places where they clean the water from cities they are unable to clean every poisonous substance from the water so they let the worldocean clean the substances they cant clean from the water.. They just pump it out there for future generations hahaha like there will be one on this Earth. come on lets be serious and stop dreaming.'

The airplanes have been spraying chemtrails for 10 years now in almost every country on the planet, AND over the oceans, go and look at satelite pictures before the media edits the white lines all over the oceans and countries all over the planet.. Fact, let the evidence speak and stop playing like a noob in the game of life.

Products are buildt to break so people have to go buy new products all the time, they even got schools that teach humans how to make products break after they have been used for a while, some companies put small microchips into their products so the product will shut down after the warranty runs out, fact this is nothing I am makin up and this is turning rich natue into piles of garbage and we dont yet have a solution to where all the poisonous trash should be stored.

The rich countries sells their trash to the poorer countries where the corrupt leaders dump it in nature somewhere since there is no laws there and polices or even reporters sometimes that can tell the peoples about it.

So we are all living on borrowed time to be honest, oilspills and factoryfarming totaly destroys the envoriment to.

And when BP sprayed poisons into the oceans using airplanes just so their oilspills would sink was kinde uneccesary since we only have 1 world ocean on this round planet so we can never push away poisons anywhere since gravity holds all the poisons here for a very long time.

I think you should grow up and stop calling me names bc you think you need to protect yourself from the truth, Im saying there is a way out of this but its thru the sun and onto the New Earth in the 5th dimension.

But for you to do that you need to detach from all the destruction of mother Earth and activate your third eye and stop creating karma by eating animals for example.

You dont destroy nature when you eat fruit and veggies, I say your poop are delicious for other trees then yourself,we have a common destiny with the trees, they give us food and we give them food when we poop out the fruits.

I also was talkin earlier about selling and buying human vegetarian poop and turning it into food by giving it as food to the fruitbearing trees..

But I guess people rather run in a damn hamsterwheel and go buy the freefood to the ones who put a fence around the trees that was put here for all of humanity, for FREE..

You got that stockholmsyndrome and believe me i know what that syndrome does to people since I live in the country where they first noticed it and gave it a name. People are afraid to get killed if they talked about how they are getting killed. And thats very bad gamingskills in the game of life to be honest. ;P

Peace folks do what ever you want, hate me for pointing out the truth buut youre only hating yourself probably thats why you hate the truth and the ones who bring it. Aint many getting out of this alive. around 15% of humanity is what i have heard. The rest will not see the need of detachin from everything that is destroying humanity and Earth. =(

Much love
Title: Re: Are human beings part of nature or outside it?
Post by: FollowIcculus on September 24, 2013, 12:27 pm
I believe many people confuse "unnatural" with "man-made". Being that the world is natural, and man exists as part of the world, how could ANYTHING be unnatural?

Steel cities are just as natural as ant hills. Ants build hills to survive; humans build cities to survive.
Yeah but ants build hills instinctively and need them to survive.  Many people live outside cities.  They are not essential to human survival and have not existed as long as our species has.

We build cities instinctively and need them to survive as well, at least if we want to maintain such a high population. The people that live outside of cities live in smaller communities, much like our hunter-gatherer ancestors. Communities, villages, towns, tribes, etc...are all essentially smaller versions of cities.
True.  I suppose even a family household in the middle of no where is still just our version of an ant hill in the smallest scale.