Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Opiate-Power on March 26, 2012, 04:24 pm

Title: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Opiate-Power on March 26, 2012, 04:24 pm
Hey All,

So here is my question. Should SR limit the amount of free accounts it allows? I mean I know we need buyers but I also think that it is going to be the downfall (hopefully it never happens). I mean I think SR needs to be more like opiophile or demonoid. Basically use parts of both systems.

I think that they should close down registration. Now if you are willing to pay say $100-$150 for the account then so be it. I think this would help because it would limit the amount of scammer buyers since this seems to be the trend as of lately. However there should be periods of time when SR opens up free registration. Basically when things get stagnant and vendors say they need more clients. I think this would really help because it would keep the site on more of a down low because not just any john smith can register at anytime for free.

Also I think they should allow those who are already members like 3 invites a year for nothing. After that maybe a 5-10 BTC fee to send out more invites. This would enable the current member base to expand a a much slower rate as well as I think it would limit the amount of buyer scammers. Basically I would not invite someone who I didn't trust as I am sure most wouldn't. I know so would attempt to sell these invites but that means the buyer is again paying for his registration again limiting the amount of reverse scams.

So let me know what you guys think. I would be curious to hear what other peoples ideas are. Hell I would support a secondary underground market that took the very best vendors and buyer on here with 10+ buys with a 0% refund rate and have spent over $500. Who knows this may already exist but I doubt it because I remember a scam awhile ago where someone used this ploy. Basically the second market would allow the best of vendors and buyers to operate on a secret site. This site should be completely invite or pay only. No freebies there because it would just attract unwanted attention. I really think vendors add 25-50 percent to the price of their products to protect from the reverse scammers. This secondary site would allow vendors to offer lower prices because they will not have fear of having their feedback held hostage by those reverse scammers.

Opiate-Power
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: PlutoPete on March 26, 2012, 04:54 pm
It wouldn't work, any scammers that are already members would use their invites to make more scam accounts and they'd make more money because the vendors would be more trusting.
The secondary underground market is already catered for with stealth listings, I expect they will become more customisable as the site continues to improve :)
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: userabcd on March 26, 2012, 05:03 pm

Reverse scamming occurs on every site that gives the opportunity.  If not at first, the scammers will come around and start doing it.  I had to finalize early on the one transaction I made, but I am ok with that.  At least we have the feedback for the seller.  If one is concerned about prices being too high to make up for lossage, then perhaps there should be a % discount for those who finalize early.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Kappacino on March 26, 2012, 06:44 pm
Sr seems to be fine for buyers and established vendors. Finalizing early is perfectly ok if you buy from someone who is well respected. Of course it is still possible that they could scam you but I imagine the main concern of these people is to shift more product, they don't want to scam you, and they want the product to get to you.

I imagine it is hardest for the new sellers. Because they aren't respected enough yet to ask people to finalise early, so really they can only sell to people with good purchasing stats. And even then there aren't any guarantees. Personally if I was a new seller I wouldn't trust anyone that didn't already have at the very least 5+ purchases for a reasonable amount of money. That's probably excessively paranoid but all it takes is one dickhead to claim he never received anything and give you a 1/5 and on a new account that's a pretty heavy blow to take.

Therefore I think it would be a good idea for any new seller to bite the bullet and give away $100-200 worth of product absolutely free. That way they get some rep under their belt and they can show that they're in it to genuinely provide a service and gain some trust in the community.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: BigBill6778 on March 26, 2012, 07:11 pm
I am a fairly new member & I would definitely pay a member fee to use the site and also the Market It would get rid of alot of BS and scammers.If anyone is to invite new members they should be held accountable for their friends actions and made to forfeit any monies owed to vendors that their invited friends scammed vendors out of.If we keep losing vendors how the hell will this site & Market stay open our vendors can't keep supplying everyone for free because someone says they never received their package or the product isn't what they ordered.Shit some of these vendors have $1000 of dollars in inventory and it dwindles away fast with scammers attacking them and then the pricing goes thru the roof of everyone that is an honest buyer
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: aliasx on March 26, 2012, 09:39 pm
I think making Silk Road an exclusive thing sort of ruins some of the fundamentals that SR stands for. But I'm mainly just not a fan of the invite-only mentality.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: clixor on March 26, 2012, 09:46 pm
Who am i going to send invites to as well, it's not exactly the same as torrentsites to download some mp3's and movies..
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: aliasx on March 26, 2012, 09:55 pm
Who am i going to send invites to as well, it's not exactly the same as torrentsites to download some mp3's and movies..
Haha...
Yeah, Silk Road is sort of something YOU find. Even when I try to tell my friends about Silk Road, the thought of inviting them or teaching them how to access it is just silly.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: thecloser29 on March 26, 2012, 10:54 pm
I also think that there should be some system in place for buyers. Whether it be an invite/referral system or a small buyers "registration fee"

Just need a way to weed out the scammers and LE if at all possible.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: phubaiblues on March 26, 2012, 11:06 pm
Yeah, like all things on here, tho, the devil's in the details, u know, but I'd support it, even retroactively if needed: main peeve is the buyers posting dishonest reviews of their own product.  It's obvious if you've been here awhile, but newbies who just stumble on site, could losse a lot of money before they learn what's what.

Most of our problems seem to come from ignorance and 'newness' as once you've been here awhile, whether it be buying bitcoins or dope, u know to come over here and check around first, and if we see too many brand new players raving about their new bitcoin vendor, we point it out.  Makes it hard on newbies of course. 

It's one idea of how to stop this.  We had one bitcoin seller a while back, ripped off quite a few people, and then someone came right behind him--or maybe it was just him again--and started the same thing: they claim they were vendor 'in another area on here that everybody knows' and then get a few shills to rave about them (shills on here can obviously be the vendor himself) .... but again, the real problem is how to protect the innocent.  I'm all for darwinian stuff, but we should at least give the newbs a running start before they get nailed.

Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: cypee on March 26, 2012, 11:55 pm
Im fairly new here too, I can only say this "registration fee" is really stupid.  I may not have been here a long time, but isn't SR supposed to be a free market for people to get what they want, things they can't get because of stupid misguided laws? 
That will just cause you to LOSE money. I wouldn't pay 100$ for access.    I was one of the people who accidentally stumbled on this site, and it's a god send!  I just purchased my first item, and can't wait to give it a try.

I do though agree on having registration open at various times & isn't always open registration.  There are definitely no way to weed out LE, that's just preposterous.  Anyone can use TOR and ANYONE can access SR.  Vendors just have to be more safe. 
As for scammers, well there will always be scammers.  Let's just hope there are more smart buyers that do research before purchasing from a vendor.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: 77Tjm on March 27, 2012, 12:46 am
Any barriers to registration (pay wall, invite only) will keep out the lazy scammers. The professional scammers would look at that and think:

"5 BTC for a 'trusted' account?- ha ha, sure I'll pay that 5 BTC and continue scamming same as before. When I get burned, I'll click 'new identity' in Tor, pay another 5 BTC, and scam more free drugs."

Invite systems will just be abused by the scammers to create more scamming buyer accounts.

That's the other side of anonymity- I wouldn't be surprised if a huge portion of the scams run here were all run by the same keyser soze type mofo with dozens of buyer/seller accounts and an army of borg sock puppets to run game on the forums. (I'm fairly certain its not moonbear though)
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: BigBill6778 on March 27, 2012, 01:54 am
Make the registration fee the same as a vendors account not many people want to lose $150
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Opiate-Power on March 27, 2012, 02:30 am
Hey All,

I understand both points of view. I however tend to agree that if it cost the same as a vendors account then it would really limit the amount of reverse scams. Like it was said people do not want to lose $150 bucks for a one time scam. However I understand the free market idea.

What about inventing a feedback system for buyers as well. That would allow the sellers to rate the buyers. I mean I can see this being both good and bad but something needs to be done. Hell I am not even a vendor here and I can see the benefits to protecting our vendors. It seem that two very honest and trust worthy vendors are calling it quits because of the reverse scams. And you know what I do not blame them. So think about what would happen if all the vendors banded together and decided to pull all listings until something happened to prevent this reverse scam. I bet a lot of you would be awfully mad. I mean it is the vendors who are putting more risk into this site then the buyers. Sure we as buyers take risks as well but I think SR has done a great job at limiting the vendor scammers. This is what has made this place grow.

Nobody I know of uses Black Market Reloaded because it is full of scammer vendors. This place would crumble without the vendors. I know it is hard to believe but it really could happen. All it would take is the vendors to create a union and wham were shit out of luck. This is why I pushing for a way to protect these vendors.

Sad to see us lose Paper-Chasing and W007(Wumg). I cannot believe they are going to be leaving.

Opiate-Power
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: moz30 on March 27, 2012, 02:51 am
We could make 2 sections at the buyer accounts: Free and Premium !!
Free accounts with buying limit, just say 100$/per month and 500$ per year.
Premium accounts like now, just say 20$.
Every member with more than 1 order get a premium account and all other will be delete!

So every newbie can test Sr and if they love(and we know they will) they buy a premium account!


Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: beefy on March 27, 2012, 05:55 am
The whole "registration fee" thing wouldn't really work and it would be the demise of SR. If you do an extensive search in the TOR world, you'll discovery that SR isn't the only site that offers these types of goods. People would just flock over to those sites and SR would then only cater to an unpleasant crowd and then maybe close because of lack of new registrations.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: LittlePharma on March 27, 2012, 07:34 am
Eh, guys guys.  Rules for the sake of rules, that is what I'm seeing.  None of these things are going to effectively stop a scammer.  Come on, face it.  If there was a magic bullet for blocking / discouraging scammers, it would already be in the works.

The only thing I can see that makes sense is rating the buyers in similar fashion to sellers....which, in a round about way is already implemented when you see a buyers stats such as membership time, orders amount, refund, etc.

Rules for the sake of rules will kill this place.  Word of mouth, good community, and good communication is what will protect everyone the most.  You shouldn't be a buyer or a seller without a forum account IMO.

The forum has all the information you need to make good decisions.  You will never get a 100% success rate... but the responsibility is on us as individuals to educate ourselves as buyers and sellers to make this thing work.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: aliasx on March 27, 2012, 09:28 am
We could make 2 sections at the buyer accounts: Free and Premium !!
Free accounts with buying limit, just say 100$/per month and 500$ per year.
Premium accounts like now, just say 20$.
Every member with more than 1 order get a premium account and all other will be delete!

So every newbie can test Sr and if they love(and we know they will) they buy a premium account!

Then we'd have hundreds of users all making new accounts and abandoning them when their limit is reached.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: boniface1100 on March 27, 2012, 04:46 pm
I keep seeing references to "both sides" of this issue here- but there is only one side, that membership to the site be free. Free membership is fundamental, but mainly it's just good business practice of having more buyers.

So- seek a solution to the problem that does not involve this basic tenet of the site as it is presently presented.

I am sorry to seem curt but it does not seem to leave room for much controversy.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Opiate-Power on March 29, 2012, 05:05 am
Hey,

I understand that people should be able to get free membership but this will eventually lead to SR's downfall. I truly hope this doesn't happen but it eventually will. I mean this site is still realistically small because it is still kinda new and that fact that people don't really know how to get/use bitcoins.

But if the people who are into bitcoins get there way and this e-currency takes off huge then SR will defiantly be a target for law enforcement agencies. And don't believe for one minute that if the government wanted to shut this down that they couldn't. Especially the US or China. Some of the most secret technology is in their hands. So please don't be so naive to think this could not happen.

This is the reason I am suggesting paying for the site or making a secondary more private site where only top top vendors and top buyers had access to. That way if something did happen to SR people that really have come to depend on this site have a place to go. Of course the requirements would have to be agreed upon for the secondary secret site. And for all I know this may already exist but once again I doubt it because someone ran a scam saying you had to pay 15BTC to access it. So I think that it hasn't been done yet but who knows.

I mean no disrespect to anyone either. I am just stating my opinion and I think I am entitled to that. I want to hear other peoples opinions because I value your opinions as well. I honestly think that this site is the greatest thing since sliced bread and hope that it will go on forever but this site is not an exception to what history teaches us.

Opiate-Power
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: BenJesuit on March 29, 2012, 11:12 pm
I understand your concern and share it.

Interestingly enough, many of the top vendors have alternate means of contacting them in the event that Silk Road is down or shut down. However, doing business in this fashion would likely mean that you were a regular of a reliable vendor and hopefully established at least a few memorable interactions. It also means losing the protection of escrow. But that may not matter with a top, honest vendor. But then again, they may cease operations thinking that they may be compromised by SR being taken down. 

And in the unfortunate event that SR were taken down, perhaps forums would pop up with vendors from SR who would post their contact info for business being conducted via Tor, PGP, and various e-currencies.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: redalloverthelandguyhere on March 30, 2012, 02:09 am
Its down to how much the scammers take in terms of percentage. Buyers who get scammed usually do not do homework and its like getting ripped in real life only a lot safer!

I guess traders can afford to take the odd loss.

On a matter of security it might be useful for traders to pass postcodes of all sales to management who can then see instantly if there is an obvious pattern. I know that some sales to Aussie were stopped maybe customs more than scammers. A lone scammer would have a few addresses to send stuff to but usually all within walking distance.

A good help would be if we had domestic sellers or resellers for various products. This would stop scammers as most domestic postal services the post always gets through. I am guessing the traders getting hit for 'no shows' are sending across borders. Buyers use the fact that some stuff does not make it to grab a free gram or two of something. Some I guess are sneaky and build up a few sales before 'losing' something maybe at 100 BTC which would mean 'free' gear and maybe 50 BTC back. They maybe spend 35 BTC to build up the illusion of being the faithful customer.

As for charging to become a member this would weed out the chancers.

Would like to see some stats of how many no shows per 100 transactions. That will tell us all we need to know.

I would pay 10-15 BTC to stay here. I think if it happened there would be tier system with older members and big spenders paying nothing.

Demonoid is well known for not having new members. What happens there is people join and grab lots of accounts to sell on. It would happen here if we got free ones. It takes time and money to really scam on here - a lot of work for a decent paycheck. My guess is a few have been on here with multiple IDs but postcode patterns might emerge or a few same addresses popping up and different names. I realize its a security issue with addresses but if it stopped scammers then management could have a blacklisted addresses or postcodes list. Anyone on that would have to FE and incur losses until they had a good rep. Traders ought to make sure a buyer does not make a sale which might stand to see them with a lot of BTC if they claim a no show.

 :)
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Sonitchka on March 30, 2012, 06:13 am
I don't really get what the problem is with the current system as long as people use it wisely.  It seems totally legitimate to me for trusted vendors to require early finalization from new buyers (or buyers with lots of tiny transactions that are basically bullshit to raise stats).  That should protect vendors from getting reverse scammed.  Established buyers can stay in escrow to take a chance on a new vendor.  New vendors and new buyers should probably not be conducting business with each other.  Just like virgins shouldn't fuck each other... the experience will likely be shitty for both parties.  But if everyone is cool with earning a good reputation by giving the more established party the upper hand on the risk factor, it seems like this shouldn't be a huge issue.  Vendors just need to have good rules in place for who they will or will not do business with.  And new buyers who have a problem with that should fuck off.  Am I missing something here?
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: BigBill6778 on March 30, 2012, 01:50 pm
If SR made new members pay 10-15 Bitcoins for new membership people would be less likely to scam vendors.I am sorry that new members scam our vendors and this probably comes from other sites that have the same shit happenig there but something has to be done to prtect both Buyer& Seller.If you make it a pay site it will stop alot of people before they even enter the market or forum.Just think about it people won't even pay $1 to download songs to an ipod or MP3 so why would they stop here and pay to scam someone only legit people would register and save a shitload of headaches for everyone

  Also the $10-15 Bitcoins can be used by SR for system updates and upgrades for security of it's registered users
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: safras on March 30, 2012, 04:00 pm
I am a new user and I understand this issue is very difficult for both buyer and seller. Both are placing trust in the other and it's a very difficult thing to resolve elegantly, especially if you want both parties to keep their anonymity.

I personally would not have joined if there had been a registration fee, so I do think you would be missing out on non-scam buyers, but that's inevitable. The more closed off you make it, the safer it might seem, but the less custom you will get.

It's great as a new user to be able to use the system as I already have: deposit some bitcoins, order product, wait for product to arrive, and then finalize. I am very grateful to sellers who are willing to put faith in new customers like this, although there was still risk to me as well.

One thing you could do is limit how much new users can buy, so that the seller is only making a small loss on new scammers. But the problem with that is as someone else said: you might get people making a few small transactions to gain trust before doing a big one that they scam, and they would make their money back as well as get free product. I suppose at least such a system would weed out some of the scammers who put less effort in.

But at the end of the day, no matter what you do, it will always be possible to scam, it'll just take increasing amounts of effort. You have to weigh up how much you want to make it difficult for legitimate buyers, and how much sellers are willing to lose on the scammers that get through.

There is also the issue of knowing whether you were scammed or whether the package really didn't arrive. In such a situation both buyer and seller have been hurt, but it's the fault of neither, and nothing can really be done about that. I'm guessing the sellers increase their prices to take into account the fact that some product will be lost and some will be scammed.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: dr34dl0ck on March 30, 2012, 04:11 pm
I don't think the invite only helps with security. Infact, accounts just become a market (the consumers being the ones who dont have access to SR) and the scammers sell the accounts for triple fold, etc.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: SadTurtle on March 30, 2012, 09:03 pm
New user here,
Been watching and learning as much as i can. I think a lot of you guys have the right idea: split the sit into "regular" and "premium" sections. this would benefit us greatly in several ways:

creating a place for the dedicated and trust worthy

singling out the noobes and scammers

making infiltration by LE a lot tougher (at least insulating them from the premium members)

If you simply make everyone pay a registration fee you are going to scare a lot of people away. Me for instance, I live in a large metro city and have access to a lot of goods you guys are asking about. but I am knew to this deep web stuff and there is no way im going to pay a registration fee for a risky venture. not to mention that kind of stands against what this site is really about. So lets make a premium site for those who are dedicated and that will weed out a lot of the bad eggs by itself.  I hope to become a trusted part of this place, i have been looking for a community like this for a long time.

Well thats my opinion,

catch you guys later
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: philter3 on March 30, 2012, 10:59 pm
I understand your concern and share it.

Interestingly enough, many of the top vendors have alternate means of contacting them in the event that Silk Road is down or shut down. However, doing business in this fashion would likely mean that you were a regular of a reliable vendor and hopefully established at least a few memorable interactions. It also means losing the protection of escrow. But that may not matter with a top, honest vendor. But then again, they may cease operations thinking that they may be compromised by SR being taken down. 

And in the unfortunate event that SR were taken down, perhaps forums would pop up with vendors from SR who would post their contact info for business being conducted via Tor, PGP, and various e-currencies.

Some of us who take the long term view see Silk Road as the beginning but not the end. TOR and Bitcoin are amazing innovations. With the ability to turn Bitcoin directly into precious metals/bullion there is an *amazing* opportunity for people to build a business for themselves beyond the reach of fiat currencies and regulations designed to maim and murder through supporting war (yes I am a peacenik!).
 But who would believe some random anonymous stranger on the Net? How would you find them to begin with?
 Silk Road is the answer to that. Here you can prove your bonafides and build your clientele list. I cannot be the only one who is seizing on the idea of S.R. as training wheels for the wider TOR-world. Give something like S.R. another year or two and it will be the linking nucleus for HUNDREDS of .onion vendor sites all using S.R. as a common shopping cart and escrow hub.. and if you destroy the mothership.. they will simply move forward as allied formations and be even *harder* to stop than one large site.
Title: Re: Should SR limit new free buyer accounts? We need to address the reverse scam!
Post by: Sonitchka on March 31, 2012, 05:07 am
New user here,
Been watching and learning as much as i can. I think a lot of you guys have the right idea: split the sit into "regular" and "premium" sections. this would benefit us greatly in several ways:

creating a place for the dedicated and trust worthy

singling out the noobes and scammers

making infiltration by LE a lot tougher (at least insulating them from the premium members)

If you simply make everyone pay a registration fee you are going to scare a lot of people away. Me for instance, I live in a large metro city and have access to a lot of goods you guys are asking about. but I am knew to this deep web stuff and there is no way im going to pay a registration fee for a risky venture. not to mention that kind of stands against what this site is really about. So lets make a premium site for those who are dedicated and that will weed out a lot of the bad eggs by itself.  I hope to become a trusted part of this place, i have been looking for a community like this for a long time.

Well thats my opinion,

catch you guys later

A.) Doesn't the stealth mode for vendors sort of already accomplish everything that a premium vs. regular section would?

B.) I gotta say, I don't think LE is realistically going to have a problem infiltrating the premium section any more than they'd have a problem infiltrating the regular section.  I mean all they'd have to do is make enough good size buys to gain rep, and in the meantime they can be gathering and sitting on intel about vendors based on profiling shipping and packaging techniques and etc.