Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: Remediless on October 03, 2013, 05:42 am

Title: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Remediless on October 03, 2013, 05:42 am
Right so I know none of us know WTF is actually going on but apparently this Ross kid appeared in court in San Fran briefly yesterday saying he can't afford a lawyer and was assigned a court-appointed lawyer.

Can we put our heads together and think of any contacts we may have personally we can reach out to or anyone - specifically lawyers who have an interest in human rights, libertarianism etc might represent him for the publicity pro bono?

I'm happy to get in touch with them myself today and point them at the case in case they aren't aware of it but I need help thinking up potential names......... (and you're all cleverer than me, ahem, well mostly).

Also would Libertarians like the paypal mafia guy who bankrolled Ron Paul's presidential bid (I'm going thru a slight opiate withdrawal so bear with my clangy train of thought) be able to contribute to his defense fund? I know he's in deeeeeeeeeeep shit and the FUCKING FEDS (FUCK YOU GUYS, BTW if you're reading) are gonna make an example of this poor guy but I'm a big believer in doing SOMETHING instead of sobbing hot salty tears over SR's end.

Reme xxx


Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Dingo Ate My Drugs on October 03, 2013, 10:36 am
Oh course he has money.
I'm sure he worked out how to withdraw at least enough to pay for a lawyer.

I'm not 100% sold on the info we've been given either.
It doesn't all add up.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: incubusdriver on October 03, 2013, 11:01 am
Remediless - I can't help here unfortunately, but please keep in touch all the same: WickedWords@Safe-mail.net

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Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: PartTimeFiend on October 03, 2013, 11:50 am
They launched the "DPR" arrest story to the media with a heavy dose of character assassination...  It's going to be a brave lawyer that steps up to help him out.   Very hard to predict what will happen and where this is all going.  I don't believe half of what I hear on the news, and this case is no different...  take all media coverage of this arrest and SR take down with a big pinch of salt....

Take it easy people....

PartTimeFiend x
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Bazille on October 03, 2013, 12:01 pm
Quote
They launched the "DPR" arrest story to the media with a heavy dose of character assassination..

Don't know about the USA, but in Germany even readers of conservative newspapers seem to not be very fond of what the FBI did. Dread Pirate Roberts did less bad things than Heisenberg.

Seeing that extrajudicial assassinations (often killing civillians as collateral damage) by the US government don't cause an outrage in America I don't see why this should lessen sympathies for Dread Pirate Roberts.
The US government is like "Look! We don't take our laws seriously. And we shit on the human rights of every human outside America and constantly try to hack friendly countries. Crime and unlawful actions are necessary under certain circumstances."

Dread Pirate Roberts couldn't commit as many crimes in 10 years as the US government does in a few months.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: PartTimeFiend on October 03, 2013, 12:39 pm
Quote
They launched the "DPR" arrest story to the media with a heavy dose of character assassination..

Don't know about the USA, but in Germany even readers of conservative newspapers seem to not be very fond of what the FBI did. Dread Pirate Roberts did less bad things than Heisenberg.

Seeing that extrajudicial assassinations (often killing civillians as collateral damage) by the US government don't cause an outrage in America I don't see why this should lessen sympathies for Dread Pirate Roberts.
The US government is like "Look! We don't take our laws seriously. And we shit on the human rights of every human outside America and constantly try to hack friendly countries. Crime and unlawful actions are necessary under certain circumstances."

Dread Pirate Roberts couldn't commit as many crimes in 10 years as the US government does in a few months.

Agree with everything you've said there Bazille.  I would add to it by saying that America also shits on the human rights of Americans IN the USA.  People (especially those from the low socio-economic areas) are being targeted and locked away in corporate prisons for 10+  yrs for simple drug possession. This is insane, especially when you consider these prisoners are then pimped out as cheap labour to local counties.  In my opinion it's the new face of slavery.  The US system is fucked.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: ProudCannabian on October 03, 2013, 12:44 pm
It's VERY conceivable he has no money.
All he had is now considered a proceed of crime, and he would not be able to use any of it to pay a lawyer.
There is no lawyer that will take a case where "if he wins he might get paid" from a pool of seized assets.
I'd say he's going to have to go public defender or someone will have to start a legal kickstarter... it won't be a cheap case.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Aurelius Venport on October 03, 2013, 12:49 pm
a million skilled lawyers will take it pro bono for the publicity
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: railroadbill on October 03, 2013, 01:20 pm
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 03, 2013, 02:54 pm
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.

But did he (or the person arrested)? I would wait for actual facts before believing allegations.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: railroadbill on October 03, 2013, 03:28 pm
He doesnt need a lawyer he needs a bodyguard. Vendors are gonna skin him alive when he gets out.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: PartTimeFiend on October 04, 2013, 09:37 am
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.

Did you miss my comment about character assassination?  C'mon, do you really believe these stories about this "nerd" (your words) taking out hits on people??!!   The FBI are well known for spinning stories and telling lies.  Don't believe everything you read on the news.  Smoke and mirrors.   For all we know, the guy they arrested may not even be the DPR.  The feds may have infiltrated the Silk Road and found a way to lock down the website. Meanwhile they arrest some patsy (who's wanted for other reasons) and say he's the DPR and pin all the charges on him.  It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like this.

At the end of the day, we just don't know the facts.  What we do know is the FBI and other US intelligence agencies have budgets of billions of dollars, and endless resources.  They're also in complete control of what information is released to the media, and therefore it is THEY who decide on the narrative.   
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: flwrchlds9 on October 04, 2013, 09:44 am
In EU most people seem to be side with Ulbricht and not very happy with LE. Maybe different in USA?

But our American friend tell us that having public Rechtsanwälte is normal until after bail hearing which is coming up today.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Dingo Ate My Drugs on October 04, 2013, 09:46 am
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.

Did you miss my comment about character assassination?  C'mon, do you really believe these stories about this "nerd" (your words) taking out hits on people??!!   The FBI are well known for spinning stories and telling lies.  Don't believe everything you read on the news.  Smoke and mirrors.   For all we know, the guy they arrested may not even be the DPR.  The feds may have infiltrated the Silk Road and found a way to lock down the website. Meanwhile they arrest some patsy (who's wanted for other reasons) and say he's the DPR and pin all the charges on him.  It wouldn't be the first time they've done something like this.

At the end of the day, we just don't know the facts.  What we do know is the FBI and other US intelligence agencies have budgets of billions of dollars, and endless resources.  They're also in complete control of what information is released to the media, and therefore it is THEY who decide on the narrative.
Couldn't agree more.

Without going into details, I was once a victim of abuse of police power.
Nobody has any idea how fucking helpless you are when the police accuse you of something you did not do.
They can alter evidence and there will be no issues. Corruption everywhere. Police VS anyone = Police win 100% of the time.
Try clearing your name. Mission impossible. And it's always guilty until proven innocent. SO much for democracy. Democracy is dead. Did it ever even exist?

Guilty of selling drugs, but innocent of other crimes.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: maxenergy on October 04, 2013, 10:50 am
better call saul...
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: NorthernStar on October 04, 2013, 11:00 am
DPR is having a bail hearing at 10am San Fransico time, hope he gets bail, doubt it very much but he doesn't deserve a life sentence.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: anonymuser on October 04, 2013, 11:04 am
He needs Saul Goodman !
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: NorthernStar on October 04, 2013, 11:06 am
Saul is dead?? no he wont touch a conspiracy to solicit murder....
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: flwrchlds9 on October 04, 2013, 11:10 am
He needs Saul Goodman !

More than that, but good start. Needs a special vacuum we think ;)

Quote
hope he gets bail, doubt it very much but he doesn't deserve a life sentence.

Not chance in hell he will get bail.

Billion dollar drug empire king-pin, 1 billion dollar money laundering, 2 murder for hire. Wish him the best, but not happening.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 04, 2013, 09:42 pm
Billion dollar drug empire king-pin, 1 billion dollar money laundering, 2 murder for hire. Wish him the best, but not happening.

Well... He's not being charged for involvement in either of the claimed murder conspiracies.

Some might think that a teeny bit odd :)
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: MollyRingwald on October 04, 2013, 10:51 pm

Well... He's not being charged for involvement in either of the claimed murder conspiracies.


Could you please elaborate? The research I've done thus far indicated that he WILL be charged for both conspiracies. If not, that could be very good news.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: tankfly on October 04, 2013, 11:00 pm
I wondered when the party would come to an end.
I hope and believe that DPR predicted likewise that one day there would be a knock at his door.
I hope he made provision for this day.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Remediless on October 04, 2013, 11:01 pm
Just a quick update in case you haven't seen it :-


Ross Ulbricht Legal Defense Fund, created by a semi-famous anarchist Mike Gogulski (nostate.com , bradleymanning.org):

CLEARNET:

http://www.rossulbricht.org/

*********COPY AND PASTE FROM THAT SITE FOLLOWS..............***

Introducing the Ross Ulbricht Legal Defense Fund

Hi, I’m Mike Gogulski, and I operate rossulbricht.org.

On 2 October 2013, the US government announced that it seized the Silk Road website and assets and arrested its alleged operator, Dread Pirate Roberts, now known by his alleged real name, Ross William Ulbricht.

I registered the following domains within hours of the announcement: rossulbricht.org, rossulbricht.com, rossulbricht.net, freerossulbricht.org, freerossulbricht.com and freerossulbricht.net. All of the other domains redirect here, to rossulbricht.org.

This site is dedicated to providing support and legal defense funding to Ross. He is charged with a variety of offenses, and given the extremely punitive nature of the US “justice” system, he faces many, many years in prison if convicted. Raising funds for his legal defense is important, since the more legal resources one has, the better the chances of acquittal or reduced sentencing.

This website is also for YOU, Ross Ulbricht’s supporters — well, and detractors. My policy right now, before launch, is to not censor or delete any negative comments about the man, about me, or about this legal defense fundraising  and support effort. Don’t feed the trolls; eventually, they get bored and move on.

Who am I? Just a guy. My business website is at gogulski.com and I blog at nostate.com. Some will be interested to know that I was also the original registrant of bradleymanning.org, and thereby co-founder of what became the Bradley Manning Support Network. That organization is now called the Private Manning Support Network, as Manning announced upon sentencing at court-martial that she now identifies as a woman and that she has chosen the name Chelsea to replace Bradley.

More to come. Meanwhile, read the FAQ, and start a conversation.

Peace,
Mike Gogulski


________________________________________


Ross Ulbricht’s parents say zero chance of murder-for-hire

The parents of Ross Ulbricht — who is accused of being Dread Pirate Roberts, operator of the Silk Road marketplace — say that there is no chance he ever ordered a murder-for-hire and that they have legally-admissible evidence to prove it.

I spoke for about two hours today with Lyn and Kirk Ulbricht at their home (by telephone –ed.). We discussed a variety of matters including legal, public relations and fundraising strategies. We also talked about our own feelings and theories about Ross being in custody with such charges pending. (Note to media: Contacts are not welcome at this time.)

I have also opened communications with Ross’s current federal public defender in San Francisco.

A bail hearing scheduled for today has been moved to next week, exact timing unknown.

I’m not at liberty to discuss more at present.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 05, 2013, 01:21 am
Quote
They launched the "DPR" arrest story to the media with a heavy dose of character assassination..

Don't know about the USA, but in Germany even readers of conservative newspapers seem to not be very fond of what the FBI did. Dread Pirate Roberts did less bad things than Heisenberg.

Seeing that extrajudicial assassinations (often killing civillians as collateral damage) by the US government don't cause an outrage in America I don't see why this should lessen sympathies for Dread Pirate Roberts.
The US government is like "Look! We don't take our laws seriously. And we shit on the human rights of every human outside America and constantly try to hack friendly countries. Crime and unlawful actions are necessary under certain circumstances."

Dread Pirate Roberts couldn't commit as many crimes in 10 years as the US government does in a few months.

Sentiment seems to be mixed here. Most admire what he created and his stance on the war on drugs (usually prefaced with something like "I don't condone breaking the law BUT ...". The whole murder-for-hire thing isn't sitting well with a lot of folks. I'm not sure that I'd classify that as a character assassination; he was indicted for it.

On the other hand, the story about hiring redandwhite to kill FriendlyChemist does not belong in the complaint and should be in the news. He wasn't charged in that and they have zero proof. I know they have no proof, because you get charged for hiring an assassin whether they are successful or not (like as in the MD case). And they are painting him like some kind of violent gangster (average Americans are pretty afraid of anarchy, so it's not tough to play on that fear).

Anyway, it's not really a liberal vs conservative ideology thing here. Many conservatives are pro-legalization of drugs and libertarians can pretty much be divided into those who lean liberal or conservative.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 06, 2013, 11:49 am
Quote
Well... He's not being charged for involvement in either of the claimed murder conspiracies.
Could you please elaborate? The research I've done thus far indicated that he WILL be charged for both conspiracies. If not, that could be very good news.

Ah, this is the first I've heard about this. The main complaint, at least, (the source of the FriendlyChemist 'assassination' claim) charges him on only the three counts of Narcotics Trafficking, Computer Hacking and Money Laundering conspiracies.

CLEARNET:
http://www.rossulbricht.org/

Ross Ulbricht’s parents say zero chance of murder-for-hire

The parents of Ross Ulbricht — who is accused of being Dread Pirate Roberts, operator of the Silk Road marketplace — say that there is no chance he ever ordered a murder-for-hire and that they have legally-admissible evidence to prove it.

Intriguing, and encouraging.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: BlueGiraffe on October 06, 2013, 03:33 pm

He doesnt need a lawyer he needs a bodyguard. Vendors are gonna skin him alive when he gets out.

Hey railroad...

I've been watching your grouchy posts for a while now - and frankly it's getting a bit much.

You knew what you were getting into, you chose to take the risks, so get over it and stop whining.

DPR did a great thing and created an incredible opportunity for us to do business here - something unique that had never been done before. He's human, he made mistakes, he got caught, you lost the money in your account. Welcome to the real fucking world dude! Shit happens...

Your negative energy serves no-one. Thank the man for giving you an opportunity to do something you never could before, and now for being an agent of Life and giving you a real taste of it! You're free, he's not. Be greatful for that at the very least.

He deserves our respect (will always have mine) and acknowledgement as another human being - who has a heart, has dreams and is fallible - as all humans are. So please cut the anger. Loss of money stings. I know I've been there and I feel for you. Loss of freedom is worse on any day though.

Perspective is a beautiful thing...

BG
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: lobster55 on October 06, 2013, 04:03 pm
I'm still unclear about something that perhaps someone would clear up.
Just WHY did SR get shut down when DPR got arrested. They couldn't shut it down before and what should be different unless DPR told them HOW to shut it down. If they had the ability to do this what difference does arresting the Admin. make?
So did DPR direct them to shut it and if they could do it without his help then why did they wait untill now?
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 06, 2013, 04:14 pm
+1 BlueGiraffe
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: incubusdriver on October 06, 2013, 06:58 pm
+1 BlueGiraffe

I would +1 BlueGiraffe but I'm not going to because railroadbill scares me
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Remediless on October 06, 2013, 08:15 pm
@Incubusdriver: Hey! I saw your message before and will be in touch!

If anyone's interested (because I know all sorts of people read these forums, not just SR vendors and buyers who obviously wish to stay anonymous), then I saw on reddit that Ross Ulbricht's mom and dad are currently running his email address and wants people to help with his defense fund.

*******COPY AND PASTE****

They can send an email to the now public rossulbricht@gmail.com, his mom and dad are using it to solicit phone numbers of people who are willing to help post bail. If you email her with your real name and phone number, she will give it to the court officer in New York. She needs it before Monday but Ross’s defense lawyer says that the more support he gets in the form of secured bail before his hearing on Tuesday the better for his trial starting off on the right foot.

********

If you're concerned about doing that but serious about fronting money to help then you could always contact his attorney Brandon LeBlanc direct.  Office: 415-436-7700


Whatever the info might be that we've heard in the past week... I personally still believe in the idea of being innocent until proven guilty ...
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 06, 2013, 08:23 pm
Not chance in hell he will get bail.

Billion dollar drug empire king-pin, 1 billion dollar money laundering, 2 murder for hire. Wish him the best, but not happening.
+1 for actually having some common sense and understanding how the feds work. And also for not talking out of your ass like those who are living in a fantasy world. You're absolutely correct.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 06, 2013, 08:38 pm
Billion dollar drug empire king-pin, 1 billion dollar money laundering, 2 murder for hire. Wish him the best, but not happening.

Well... He's not being charged for involvement in either of the claimed murder conspiracies.

Some might think that a teeny bit odd :)

Actually that's not entirely correct. They aren't charging him with the alleged hit in Canada, because it never happened, and I'm guessing that they don't have a witness. He would have been charged if they had evidence; you still get charged whether the person exists or not and whether or not you were successful. So it's safe to assume they can't prove that. They do, however, mention it as an "overt act" in the complaint to attempt to establish him as being violent/aggressive. It's more to show character and to show behavior consistent with a 'drug-lord' or kingpin (or anyone involved in organized crime). I hate to speculate because there are quite enough armchair lawyers here, but my guess would be that ends up being inadmissible because it's based entirely on hearsay.

But he was indicted by a Baltimore, MD grand jury on the alleged hit attempt on the former SR employee. The person he contracted with to perform the murder was an undercover FBI agent.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: flwrchlds9 on October 06, 2013, 09:50 pm
Not chance in hell he will get bail.

Billion dollar drug empire king-pin, 1 billion dollar money laundering, 2 murder for hire. Wish him the best, but not happening.
+1 for actually having some common sense and understanding how the feds work. And also for not talking out of your ass like those who are living in a fantasy world. You're absolutely correct.

The amount of pud pulling that happen around here sometimes is concern.

Because one go to liberty minded drug forum and have everyone agree that the laws are BS (which they are) and the community is doing "right thing" not mean that governments that spend millions of dollars on "war on drugs" to push stazzi agenda will agree it is ok and not try to take you down.

We see tossing off about being crusaders everyday. Discussion about revolution is good but need to be on earth and not in clouds when talk about reality.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 07, 2013, 12:04 am
Ross Ulbricht’s parents say zero chance of murder-for-hire
His brother said the same thing. But that's completely meaningless. My parents would say the same about me were I in that situation, especially if they didn't know for a fact that I did it.

The parents of Ross Ulbricht — who is accused of being Dread Pirate Roberts, operator of the Silk Road marketplace — say that there is no chance he ever ordered a murder-for-hire and that they have legally-admissible evidence to prove it.
Ummmmm That sounds far-fetched at best. How do his parents have evidence that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he's not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder? There are only two ways that I'm aware of to prove that: CONCRETE proof that it was someone else who ordered the hit (which still doesn't prove definitively that he wasn't involved in) or an alibi (which doesn't apply since he's not the one who was hired to perform the hit and the murder itself never took place). The only other way would be to be able to demonstrate that he's the victim of an elaborate plot to frame him.

Also, the fact that this evidence is provided by his family (specifically his immediate family) is going to make it carry much less weight in court.

And if you think about it, he's only been charged and indicted on murder charges in the case in the Baltimore district court. In that case, he allegedly hired an undercover federal agent to commit a murder. He's not charged with that in the case in the Southern District of New York. So it'd come down to the word of his parents versus the sworn testimony of an FBI agent. Who do you think the court will believe? Who's more credible as a witness in this situation? Listen, I'm not saying the feds don't lie, because they do; but, courts always side with LE unless there is a glaring indication that the agent is lying or has reason to lie.

I spoke for about two hours today with Lyn and Kirk Ulbricht at their home (by telephone –ed.). We discussed a variety of matters including legal, public relations and fundraising strategies. We also talked about our own feelings and theories about Ross being in custody with such charges pending. (Note to media: Contacts are not welcome at this time.)

I have also opened communications with Ross’s current federal public defender in San Francisco.
What does "theories about Ross being in custody with such charges pending" mean? There's nothing to theorize about; it's standard operating procedure to keep a suspect in custody until their arraignment. For whatever reason, HIS lawyer requested that the bail hearing be postponed. He's not going to be granted bail anyway, but he's still in custody because of the actions of his own attorney.

He's a major flight risk and he's charged with some very serious felony offenses; he will remain in custody until: A) he has a trial and is found not guilty, which is a matter of years in federal district court, and if found guilty, several more years for the appeal process -or- B) he agrees to a plea bargain and serves his time. Either way, he's going to be in custody for several years. He'll get credit for the time he's been in custody applied to his sentence (aka time served).

Look, I idolize DPR; I'm not even close to being a libertarian, but I do believe in many libertarian ideals (e.g. ending the prohibition of drugs, especially those that are naturally occurring). I'd even go so far as to say he's a hero to me were it not for the murder charges. That bothers me tremendously. But even putting that aside and assuming he's not guilty, I'm afraid that it just doesn't look good for him. This isn't at all what I want to happen; this is realistically what is likely to occur.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: zazoo on October 07, 2013, 01:36 am
Sneaky feds coercing the hit so the could have some charges that would def stick.  Rene Pinell, interesting guy.  If you were best friends with Ross and used Silkroad how could you not know? Probably smoked too much hash today but could Pine be Pinell? Obvious but there were some obvious mistakes.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 07, 2013, 01:56 am
Well... He's not being charged for involvement in either of the claimed murder conspiracies.
Some might think that a teeny bit odd :)
Actually that's not entirely correct. They aren't charging him with the alleged hit in Canada, because it never happened, and I'm guessing that they don't have a witness. He would have been charged if they had evidence; you still get charged whether the person exists or not and whether or not you were successful. So it's safe to assume they can't prove that. They do, however, mention it as an "overt act" in the complaint to attempt to establish him as being violent/aggressive. It's more to show character and to show behavior consistent with a 'drug-lord' or kingpin (or anyone involved in organized crime). I hate to speculate because there are quite enough armchair lawyers here, but my guess would be that ends up being inadmissible because it's based entirely on hearsay.

But he was indicted by a Baltimore, MD grand jury on the alleged hit attempt on the former SR employee. The person he contracted with to perform the murder was an undercover FBI agent.

I sit corrected on the Baltimore charges, then. The 'FriendlyChemist'/'redandwhite' tale does sound entirely fabricated and I hope that it and everything related to it gets thrown out of court at the earliest opportunity.

The parents of Ross Ulbricht — who is accused of being Dread Pirate Roberts, operator of the Silk Road marketplace — say that there is no chance he ever ordered a murder-for-hire and that they have legally-admissible evidence to prove it.
Ummmmm That sounds far-fetched at best. How do his parents have evidence that proves, beyond a reasonable doubt, that he's not guilty of conspiracy to commit murder? There are only two ways that I'm aware of to prove that: CONCRETE proof that it was someone else who ordered the hit (which still doesn't prove definitively that he wasn't involved in) or an alibi (which doesn't apply since he's not the one who was hired to perform the hit and the murder itself never took place). The only other way would be to be able to demonstrate that he's the victim of an elaborate plot to frame him.

Also, the fact that this evidence is provided by his family (specifically his immediate family) is going to make it carry much less weight in court.

My knowledge of your legal system is wobbly at best but I would think that 'legally-admissible evidence' would be something that had a possibility of introducing reasonable doubt. As it is, the Baltimore case seems to rest primarily on the person communicating as 'Dread Pirate Roberts' at those times being Ross Ulbricht and not, for example, a different DPR or someone who had hacked his account. An attempt will be made to establish this in the Southern District Case and I'm starting to intuit a few possible holes. I don't know what evidence his parents may have but it might, for one example, be that he was incapacitated or otherwise unable to use a computer on some of the dates in question.

My understanding is that testimony might be biased but evidence is evidence whatever the source. This is precisely why I criticised the title of nanpa2001's 'Proof inside' thread :D
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: modziw on October 07, 2013, 02:15 am
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.

I have to see with my eyes and hear with my ears. If even 10% of the FBI story is true, then I must abandon my dear dread and throw him under the proverbial bus.

If he indeed said, "I should have done it myself." in reference to the murder, then that was his most lucid moment. Yes he should have done it himself. He let his fear control his actions and made many unforgivable mistakes. Drunk on power, yes, blinded by fear, yes, an epic, tragic, flawed hero, yes, yes, yes.

Above post co-signed by,

Modzi
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 07, 2013, 08:05 am
The possible significance of what I earlier posted elsewhere has only just struck me.

Imagine (if you will) that DPR was not lying when he told the Forbes interviewer, "I didn’t start the Silk Road, my predecessor did. … I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns."

Aside from very circumstantial links such as shared interests, the complaint by my reading only links Ulbricht with promoting SR in 2011 before he seems to be established as being DPR by June of this year. If there is no proof beyond reasonable doubt that he was DPR prior to June then there is nothing to link him to the Baltimore counts. That, at least, should clear him of all charges related to intent to murder.

Am I missing something obvious here?
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 07, 2013, 04:50 pm
My knowledge of your legal system is wobbly at best but I would think that 'legally-admissible evidence' would be something that had a possibility of introducing reasonable doubt. As it is, the Baltimore case seems to rest primarily on the person communicating as 'Dread Pirate Roberts' at those times being Ross Ulbricht and not, for example, a different DPR or someone who had hacked his account. An attempt will be made to establish this in the Southern District Case and I'm starting to intuit a few possible holes.
The term "legally admissible evidence" simply means the evidence will be permitted to be introduced into the record and that the jury will be allowed to consider it in their deliberations. It DOES NOT mean that it proves anything. You can introduce as many holes as you like, but the jury has to think that a reasonable person would consider them possible (introducing holes is what defense attorneys are paid to do, but I don't know of any with a 100% success rate). If they don't by the theory, then it doesn't matter. Unfortunately, the term 'reasonable doubt' is subjective (i.e. in the eye of the beholder). The judge will instruct the jury (this is all hypothetical because 95% US criminal cases never go to trial) that 'reasonable doubt' is what an ordinary person of average intelligence would believe to be true (or doubtful). Unfortunately, this interpretation is based on each juror's personal experiences, which is why both sides will try to pack the jury with people who they think would be sympathetic to their argument. Usually people whose views are transparent are eliminated from the jury pool (each side gets a limited number of objections).

I don't know what evidence his parents may have but it might, for one example, be that he was incapacitated or otherwise unable to use a computer on some of the dates in question. My understanding is that testimony might be biased but evidence is evidence whatever the source. This is precisely why I criticised the title of nanpa2001's 'Proof inside' thread :D
Sorry I haven't read that thread yet, but I'll address what you've said here. It's unlikely that they're going to be able to prove that he was incapacitated since DHS agents visited his home and spoke with him about the fake IDs bearing his picture shipped to his address. Ulbricht told them voluntarily that hypothetically anyone could go on a website called Silk Road and have counterfeit IDs shipped anywhere. They never mentioned Silk Road in their questioning. He should have refused to say anything at all to them since they didn't have either a search or an arrest warrant. That was two months before his arrest.

How does one prove that a person wasn't able to "use a computer?" Even if I were hospitalized, I still could connect to the internet with an iPhone. And if it were an Android phone, I could use Orbot to connect to the TOR network.

The best shot they have is to prove that Ulbricht wasn't ANY of the supposed DPRs and that there was no such person. But if they can't show that he was in no way associated with that character whatsoever, then he's still subject to being found guilty on conspiracy charges.

Sure, evidence is evidence, but that doesn't mean that the jury will interpret it in the same way that you or I would. And they will definitely weigh the fact that it was produced by his parents. Most people would do anything to protect their children, and if they didn't know he was guilty, they wouldn't be guilty of perjury. The jury would be aware of that.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 07, 2013, 05:02 pm
The possible significance of what I earlier posted elsewhere has only just struck me.

Imagine (if you will) that DPR was not lying when he told the Forbes interviewer, "I didn’t start the Silk Road, my predecessor did. … I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns."

Aside from very circumstantial links such as shared interests, the complaint by my reading only links Ulbricht with promoting SR in 2011 before he seems to be established as being DPR by June of this year. If there is no proof beyond reasonable doubt that he was DPR prior to June then there is nothing to link him to the Baltimore counts. That, at least, should clear him of all charges related to intent to murder.

Am I missing something obvious here?
You're pretty astute, but you're missing one key aspect of this: he's in all instances charged with conspiracy to commit those crimes. The fact that there might be more than one DPR doesn't help Ulbricht at all unless they can prove he isn't any of them. And the Forbes interview took place on July 4 according to the author. The way DPR talks in the interview, it sounds like he'd been running the show for longer than a few months.

Plus, if you're going to take that interview at face value, then you have to take this exchange into account:
"[Greenberg] Oh, apologies, I didn’t know you had a predecessor. When did you take over the Road from him? Before you announced yourself as the Dread Pirate Roberts?

[DPR] It’s ok, this is the first time I’ve stated that publicly. I’d rather not say exactly when, for his sake mostly, but it was a transition that took some time. I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns."

So he makes it clear that he was involved in SR from early on. And honestly, I think that's a bit of a turn of phrase. He wasn't called DPR back in the early days when I first joined SR. He went by the name Silk Road for quite a while.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 07, 2013, 05:50 pm
My knowledge of your legal system is wobbly at best but I would think that 'legally-admissible evidence' would be something that had a possibility of introducing reasonable doubt. As it is, the Baltimore case seems to rest primarily on the person communicating as 'Dread Pirate Roberts' at those times being Ross Ulbricht and not, for example, a different DPR or someone who had hacked his account. An attempt will be made to establish this in the Southern District Case and I'm starting to intuit a few possible holes.
The term "legally admissible evidence" simply means the evidence will be permitted to be introduced into the record and that the jury will be allowed to consider it in their deliberations. It DOES NOT mean that it proves anything.

Yes, that's why I wrote "_possibility_ of introducing reasonable doubt" :)

I don't know what evidence his parents may have but it might, for one example, be that he was incapacitated or otherwise unable to use a computer on some of the dates in question. My understanding is that testimony might be biased but evidence is evidence whatever the source. This is precisely why I criticised the title of nanpa2001's 'Proof inside' thread :D
Sorry I haven't read that thread yet, but I'll address what you've said here. It's unlikely that they're going to be able to prove that he was incapacitated since DHS agents visited his home and spoke with him about the fake IDs bearing his picture shipped to his address. Ulbricht told them voluntarily that hypothetically anyone could go on a website called Silk Road and have counterfeit IDs shipped anywhere. They never mentioned Silk Road in their questioning. He should have refused to say anything at all to them since they didn't have either a search or an arrest warrant. That was two months before his arrest.

All you need to know about that thread is that the post it introduced was entirely lacking in anything that might be remotely described as 'proof' :)

Mr Ulbricht was interviewed about the IDs in July. All the events concerning the murder-related charges took place before March 2.

The possible significance of what I earlier posted elsewhere has only just struck me.
Imagine (if you will) that DPR was not lying when he told the Forbes interviewer, "I didn’t start the Silk Road, my predecessor did. … I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns."
Aside from very circumstantial links such as shared interests, the complaint by my reading only links Ulbricht with promoting SR in 2011 before he seems to be established as being DPR by June of this year. If there is no proof beyond reasonable doubt that he was DPR prior to June then there is nothing to link him to the Baltimore counts. That, at least, should clear him of all charges related to intent to murder.
Am I missing something obvious here?
You're pretty astute, but you're missing one key aspect of this: he's in all instances charged with conspiracy to commit those crimes. The fact that there might be more than one DPR doesn't help Ulbricht at all unless they can prove he isn't any of them. And the Forbes interview took place on July 4 according to the author. The way DPR talks in the interview, it sounds like he'd been running the show for longer than a few months.
Plus, if you're going to take that interview at face value, then you have to take this exchange into account:
"[Greenberg] Oh, apologies, I didn’t know you had a predecessor. When did you take over the Road from him? Before you announced yourself as the Dread Pirate Roberts?
[DPR] It’s ok, this is the first time I’ve stated that publicly. I’d rather not say exactly when, for his sake mostly, but it was a transition that took some time. I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns."
So he makes it clear that he was involved in SR from early on. And honestly, I think that's a bit of a turn of phrase. He wasn't called DPR back in the early days when I first joined SR. He went by the name Silk Road for quite a while.

Even if charged with murder-related conspiracy (and the only conspiracy charge I see is that to Distribute a Controlled Substance), surely it would have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he knew about DPR's alleged murder plot in January and February. I see nothing to suggest more than his knowing DPR as a real or virtual acquaintance and promoting SR as a market. Being "in his corner" implies nothing beyond supporting some of his ideas, thus being the first person to promote SR. I very much doubt that DPR would tell all his friends about a murder he was organising, even if they were helping with the SR site.

The initial change of name from 'Silk Road' to 'Dread Pirate Roberts' could well be taken as an indication that the DPR Ulbricht replaced was a previous successor (which would sort of justify the choice of that particular moniker ;)).
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 07, 2013, 09:21 pm
Yes, that's why I wrote "_possibility_ of introducing reasonable doubt" :)
Ah, I misunderstood you there, but there's a big difference in possibility and probability. I don't think that evidence from his parents is going to "probably" influence the jury. That'd have to be some pretty strong evidence; it's actually beyond my imagination  ;)

All you need to know about that thread is that the post it introduced was entirely lacking in anything that might be remotely described as 'proof' :)

Mr Ulbricht was interviewed about the IDs in July. All the events concerning the murder-related charges took place before March 2.
Well, we're talking about 4 month difference. To be incapacitated to the point in which one can't use a PC is pretty fucking incapacitated (e.g. paralyzed, in a coma, etc.). That's a miraculous recovery.


Even if charged with murder-related conspiracy (and the only conspiracy charge I see is that to Distribute a Controlled Substance), surely it would have to be proved beyond reasonable doubt that he knew about DPR's alleged murder plot in January and February. I see nothing to suggest more than his knowing DPR as a real or virtual acquaintance and promoting SR as a market. Being "in his corner" implies nothing beyond supporting some of his ideas, thus being the first person to promote SR. I very much doubt that DPR would tell all his friends about a murder he was organising, even if they were helping with the SR site.
By definintion if you hire someone to commit murder that's conspiracy.

All of this depends on the jury and depends on this going to trial (unlikely), both of which are uncertain outcomes. BTW, they kind of cover all bases with "a/k/a" and "others."

 To me, by saying, "it was a transition that took some time. I was in his corner from early on and eventually it made sense for me to take the reigns," it suggests that he was involved (although that doesn't mean Ulbricht is DPR). Many "reasonable people" might make the same connection IF that article were entered into evidence (not saying it will -- I doubt it will). That's what I was getting at when I said "reasonable person" is highly subjective.

He's charged with narcotics trafficking conspiracy, money laundering conspiracy, and computer hacking conspiracy in NY as well as other conspiracy charges in MD. I'll cut out parts that are redundant to save space, but I'm quoting directly from the NY complaint:

"...ROSS WILLIAM ULBRICHT, a/k/a "Dread Pirate Roberts," a/k/a "DPR," a/k/a "Silk Road," the defendant, and others, did combine, conspire, confederate, and agree together and with each other to violate the narcotics laws of the United States ...   the defendant, and others known and unknown, intentionally and knowingly did combine, conspire, confederate ... to commit computer hacking ... and others unknown did combine, conspire, confederate ... to commit money laundering."

This is from the Baltimore Sun. Sounds like he's being charged with witness intimidation as well. I haven't found a copy of the Maryland indictment yet:

"Ulbricht, the target of parallel but separate federal investigations, was charged by a grand jury in Maryland with conspiracy to distribute a controlled substance and attempted witness murder, among other charges"
http://articles.baltimoresun.com/2013-10-02/news/bs-md-silk-road-shut-down-20131002_1_silk-road-federal-agent-undercover-agent

The initial change of name from 'Silk Road' to 'Dread Pirate Roberts' could well be taken as an indication that the DPR Ulbricht replaced was a previous successor (which would sort of justify the choice of that particular moniker ;)).
It doesn't matter if there was more than one DPR when the charges involve conspiracy (which every single one does); Ulbricht, DPR, and "Silk Road" are all named in the complaint. He could be Santa Claus and still be one of the "others" referred to in the complaint.

To be honest, there's a subtle difference between "proving" something and convincing a jury to convict. Never use the word "surely" when discussing the US legal system and trials.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: flwrchlds9 on October 07, 2013, 10:51 pm
Among all the other mistakes he broke another important rule of trade craft. Secure your environment before you do something sensitive. He got trolled.

He was in a public library where he could not authenticate any of the other people allowed to be near him, he was chatting in real time with unknown people proving his laptop was unlocked and he did not have a workable plan to destruct the running keys.

Remember this not Hans ordering a ounce weed for use at home. This is top target of multi national country LE.

Anytime he log into admin should be in a locked secure room more then 20 feet away from any wall or access area, have a live system with encrypted usb tied to his neck that auto wipes and shut down on removal.

They will create a scenario to have you break security protocol to get you. But in end security protocol can only be broke on YOU doing. DO NOT BE TROLLED.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 08, 2013, 09:10 pm
He got trolled.

He was in a public library where he could not authenticate any of the other people allowed to be near him, he was chatting in real time with unknown people proving his laptop was unlocked and he did not have a workable plan to destruct the running keys.

Anytime he log into admin should be in a locked secure room more then 20 feet away from any wall or access area, have a live system with encrypted usb tied to his neck that auto wipes and shut down on removal.
WOW! Flwrchlds9, the information that you provide on this case never ceases to amaze me. I'm completely dumbfounded that he was in a logged in as administrator in the library . I knew he'd gotten arrested in the library, but not that he was doing admin work and chatting. Not sure if you mean IRC, but that shit's crazy any way you slice it.

Remember this not Hans ordering a ounce weed for use at home. This is top target of multi national country LE.
This perspective seems to be lost on a lot of people.


Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 14, 2013, 02:37 pm
By definintion if you hire someone to commit murder that's conspiracy.

That may well be so but that is not what he's (currently) being charged with.

All of this depends on the jury and depends on this going to trial (unlikely), both of which are uncertain outcomes. BTW, they kind of cover all bases with "a/k/a" and "others."

The Maryland charges are essentially against Ulbricht a/k/a DPR but no attempt seems to be made to demonstrate that they were the same person. The only evidence suggested appears to be communications made by a person using the DPR name.

I see no need for the Forbes interview to be entered into evidence. It is up to the prosecution to prove that the person using the DPR name before March 2 was Mr Ulbricht.

This is from the Baltimore Sun. Sounds like he's being charged with witness intimidation as well. I haven't found a copy of the Maryland indictment yet:

The Maryland charges are Conspiracy to Distribute a Controlled Substance, Attempted Witness Murder, Use of Interstate Commerce Facilities in Commission of Murder-for-Hire and Aiding and Abetting.

It doesn't matter if there was more than one DPR when the charges involve conspiracy (which every single one does); Ulbricht, DPR, and "Silk Road" are all named in the complaint. He could be Santa Claus and still be one of the "others" referred to in the complaint.

He may be named but it would still need to be proved that he conspired with the persons planning to commit the crimes. Simply knowing a person does not indicate that one knows everything that they're up to. We know each other and we know that we are both criminals but if I turn out to be planning to assassinate the queen you are not therefore guilty of conspiring with me to do so :)

There seems to be no evidence beyond hearsay to support the 'hit man' allegations in the NY case (hence his not being charged for such) nor, I as see, any strong indication that he had any connection to DPR prior to around July other than being a friend who promoted SR. The Maryland indictment depends entirely on the assumption that DPR and Mr Ulbricht were the same person much earlier in the year but seems to offer nothing to support the assertion. While I cannot account for whatever tricks may be employed to sway juries I feel that these facts could be vital to Mr Ulbricht's defence against the Maryland charges. The NY ones, of course, (not including anything murder-related) are somewhat trickier.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Hell_On_Heels on October 14, 2013, 03:52 pm
Holy shit DPR tried to have two people tortured and killed. Fuck him and his movement, he cost us all with his stupid fucking antics. He isnt a freedom fighter, he is just a fucking nerd who got drunk on power and raged on anyone who threatened it.

Notice the phrase is "Freedom FIGHTER" noT "Freedom PACIFIST".

Sometimes you have to get dirty to protect what you represent.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: users_dont_lose_drugs on October 14, 2013, 03:58 pm
The whole thing is a cluster fuck....... it's unbelievable.

Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 14, 2013, 09:50 pm
The first person he is accused of wanting to be murdered was never killed, and I wonder if DPR, whoever he was at that time, was aware that he wouldn't be[*]. It appears that the second person never existed, as nobody seems to recall a vendor by that name and the only person on the forum seems to have been a Bitcoin exchange spammer who appeared after the vendor's alleged 'death'.

[*] As a pure conjecture, however, I might posit that the incident could have shaken him enough to hand his position off to a successor.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: IForgotMyFuckingPassword on October 15, 2013, 06:48 am
The first person he is accused of wanting to be murdered was never killed, and I wonder if DPR, whoever he was at that time, was aware that he wouldn't be.
I honestly don't believe that. Based on the complaint, they allege he was informed that the hit took place and was successful. I also believe he was completely scammed--or maybe set up--but the again, that's all hearsay; I know it's hearsay, because he would have been indicted were it not. 

It appears that the second person never existed, as nobody seems to recall a vendor by that name and the only person on the forum seems to have been a Bitcoin exchange spammer who appeared after the vendor's alleged 'death'.
The 2nd person did exist. The vendor was Nob. The hitman was a UC agent (aka Nob). Chronic Pain was the former SR employee that DPR wanted killed.

The Maryland indictment is going to hard to beat. They were very clever (well, for the FBI at least). According to the indictment, an undercover agent (we know it's Nob) got DPR to facilitate a deal with a vendor for a kilo of coke (which we know to be googleyed1 and Chronic Pain). Nob gave DPR a song and dance about being so big that it wasn't worth it for him to sell less than 10 kilos (although oddly the deal was only for 1 kg). DPR thinks he's going to make a killing on the commission. Chronic Pain got arrested. He started threatening DPR. And of all people DPR turned to Nob to kill him. Not good.

That's all laid out in the indictment. I say we know that googleyed1 and Chronic Pain were the vendors, and that Nob was the agent, because the events on pages 3-4 watch exactly what googleyed1 says in this thread:
http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=218042.15

The first 6 pages are a good read:
https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/801207-gov-uscourts-mdd-238311-4-0.html

My guess would be that Chronic Pain is testifying against him. It will be tough with both the agent and his testimony. This is the stronger of the 2 cases. They just have to show they know Nob was talking to Ulbricht.
Title: Re: DPR's Legal Representation
Post by: Cornelius23 on October 15, 2013, 04:19 pm
The first person he is accused of wanting to be murdered was never killed, and I wonder if DPR, whoever he was at that time, was aware that he wouldn't be.
I honestly don't believe that. Based on the complaint, they allege he was informed that the hit took place and was successful.…

If I thought that a fake hit had been taken out then I'd want to see what they'd provide as 'proof' as well :) If it looked too realistic, however, I might shit myself, get out of the game and let a successor take over.

It appears that the second person never existed, as nobody seems to recall a vendor by that name and the only person on the forum seems to have been a Bitcoin exchange spammer who appeared after the vendor's alleged 'death'.
The 2nd person did exist. The vendor was Nob. The hitman was a UC agent (aka Nob). Chronic Pain was the former SR employee that DPR wanted killed.

It's stated clearly in the complaint that the second person was a 'vendor known as "FriendlyChemist"'. If the claims in the complaint are true then 'FriendlyChemist' is what the vendor was known as. Are you confusing the two alleged 'victims'? I'm referring to the "first" and "second" people chronologically.

The Maryland indictment is going to hard to beat. … They just have to show they know Nob was talking to Ulbricht.

Which might be difficult as they appear to have no real evidence whatsoever that Mr Ulbricht was DPR at that time.