Silk Road forums
Discussion => Security => Topic started by: ValiantExplorer on November 02, 2012, 08:09 pm
-
A respectable member of the Forums (namely Pine), advised against using the TOR Browser at the same time with the ClearNet. May I ask why? I do not understand the technical reasoning behind that advice.
-
Unless you're using a bridge, it's easy for your ISP to see that you've connected to a TOR node. If you're connected to facebook at the same time, then there's a link between your IRL identity and your TOR activity via your IP address.
I'm sure there are other, better reasons, too.
-
There's no way to prevent your isp from knowing that you're using tor - and in the situation you described, they can know that you are using tor and facebook - but so what? They can't link anything though.
-
I believe the reasoning is that if you use Tor and a regular browser at the same time, and your internet suddenly gets cut, then you will disconnect from the Tor network and the clearnet website at exactly the same time. That might make it easier for somebody to tie your Tor identity to -for example- your facebook account.
That is just my understanding of it. I don't consider it a big risk, but I'm open to correction.
-
My ISP can know at any time that I'm using TOR and they can find out about my real identity just by watching traffic from my IP.
My clearnet IP is static. It doesn't change. So then I don't see how I could ever circumvent anything by NOT running TOR + standard Browser. Eventually there's a link. But what does that prove? They can't see shit of what I'm doing through TOR. Or can they? :).
-
My few cents. Correct me if I'm wrong, with detailed info please:
"Unless you're using a bridge, it's easy for your ISP to see that you've connected to a TOR node. If you're connected to facebook at the same time, then there's a link between your IRL identity and your TOR activity via your IP address.
I'm sure there are other, better reasons, too."
Didn't know that. Only that clearnet uses tracking cookies a lot.
I wonder if they get saved in the tor directory, or if the tor directory gets cookies out of the normal browsers directory?
"There's no way to prevent your isp from knowing that you're using tor - and in the situation you described, they can know that you are using tor and facebook - but so what? They can't link anything though. "
This is not true. Tor has a function: avoid isp knowing usage of tor, or something.
Tor was made by people, or for people, who had way to many internet restrictions.
In NL, isp does not know when you use tor and connect to blocked websites...
How would they? They just get to see vague encrypted info...
"I believe the reasoning is that if you use Tor and a regular browser at the same time, and your internet suddenly gets cut, then you will disconnect from the Tor network and the clearnet website at exactly the same time. That might make it easier for somebody to tie your Tor identity to -for example- your facebook account.
That is just my understanding of it. I don't consider it a big risk, but I'm open to correction."
That link would be easily made and could be used against you indeed.
I would recommend not closing normal browser and tor browser at the same time either, like when shutting down pc to get to bed...
"My ISP can know at any time that I'm using TOR and they can find out about my real identity just by watching traffic from my IP."
How can they see that?
About your clearnet IP. Some providers provide several ip's to use to the outside.
Don't ask me which ones or how to configure the router though. I just know that some provide like 4 ip's more or less...
-
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
-
I remember reading something about possibility of leaking DNS if you use hiddenservices and clearnet sites at the same time. As i understood i think it means
that your browser could leak DNS information to the outside but not sure at all. Its only how I understand it but im for sure no internet traffic pro...
-
I got no idea what DNS would reveal about me.
Virmo: Vidalia offers the option to allow others who are censored by their ISP to reach TOR. But I don't see how this hides me or helps me hide from the ISP?
-
gooǵled a bit (on a different machine for sure :D)
the infos which could be leaked means that an outsider could propably see that your trying to resolve hiddenservice domains, which sounds very bad to
me if your isp or somebody else can see that you trying to access SR
-
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
how do u do it?
-
Virmo : Didn't know that.
Well, what you think you now 'know' (op's claim) is bullshit.
Virmo : This is not true.
It is true. Even bridges are not secret at all. If bridges were secret nobody would be able to enter the Tor network through them, duh. Also, your ISP can fingerprint your traffic (so called deep packet inspection) and know what protocols you are using.
Like I said there's NO way to prevent your ISP from knowing that you use Tor, BUT that is not something that compromises Tor's security anyway.
-
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
how do u do it?
options: my isp blocks connections to the tor network
-
Virmo : Didn't know that.
Well, what you think you now 'know' (op's claim) is bullshit.
Virmo : This is not true.
It is true. Even bridges are not secret at all. If bridges were secret nobody would be able to enter the Tor network through them, duh. Also, your ISP can fingerprint your traffic (so called deep packet inspection) and know what protocols you are using.
Like I said there's NO way to prevent your ISP from knowing that you use Tor, BUT that is not something that compromises Tor's security anyway.
Do you have proof, or a better explanation for what you are claiming?
Pretty weird huh, an isp blocks tor connections, but if you choose: my isp blocks connections to the tor network, it works!
I thought it was egypt, people were not allowed to visit A LOT of websites. then tor came, people could access the pages, then isp blocked tor, then option became available and people can visit the pages again.
You can hide everything you do from your ISP. You obviously just don;t know how to do that.
-
I believe the reasoning is that if you use Tor and a regular browser at the same time, and your internet suddenly gets cut, then you will disconnect from the Tor network and the clearnet website at exactly the same time. That might make it easier for somebody to tie your Tor identity to -for example- your facebook account.
That is just my understanding of it. I don't consider it a big risk, but I'm open to correction.
That is indeed the main argument against using Tor and Not using Tor at the same time. It primarily applies if you are surfing to the same website with both of the connections simultaneously. For example if you are in an IRC channel using Tor with one nym and without using Tor for another nym, if your internet dies both of the accounts will ping timeout at the same time. Maybe you idle and someone DOS'es you a bunch of times looking for a consistent pattern.
-
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
how do u do it?
options: my isp blocks connections to the tor network
YEAH THATS IF YOUR IN A COUNTRY THAT BLOCKS CONNECTION TO TOR...
that doesnt help me with anything im in fucking america..
that does nothing to stop anything.. that is to let people who cant use tor.. use a bridge from a friend.. and get on tor..
i dont understand what u are trying to say that does.. helpp
-
Virmo is talking about this
https://www.torproject.org/projects/obfsproxy.html.en
which lets you hide your usage of Tor better (that's why it 'works') in some places where Tor has been banned, but it's only a temporary measure.
Again, the fact that your isp knows that you use Tor is NOT a problem (at least not a big one yet in the western cesspool) - And the fact that they can see your outbound connections to the Tor network and your outbound connections to some clearnet site (which they DON'T control anyway) doesn't give them any information they don't already have.
-
From everything I have read your ISP knows u are using TOR and bridges dont stop it ,vpn maybe but people say that is as bad but i am no computer expert.
This is why I would never vend as I live in small area and probably only TOR user and law will order know which small place I post from and they could find out from ISP who using TOR in that area and I will be only one.
Any computer guys know if they would be able to bust me like that or how to stop it.Would a pay as u go dongle have a ip address that changes everytime.
-
The DOS explanation sounds interesting. Can anyone say with absolute certainty i.e computer expert? When you were disconnected, wouldn;t you get a new identity in TOR the next time so if you were disconnected again, the 2 couldnt be linked? How could they get your username from TOR?
-
what he was saying, (with regards to irc) is if you are bob1 and bob2, you login to irc as bob1 through tor, no worries, and then log in to the same network/channel as bob2, but on your CLEARNET, and you get disconnected, say your router fucks out, or as mentioned, some douche drops you, both bob1 and bob2 will drop at the same time. therefore any goober with half a brain will put two and two together and assume you are the same person.
-
IRC can't be directly compared to traffic inside the .onion network. In the example you described, you are connected to the same server using two paths. That's not the same thing as being connected to, say, facebook through the clearnet, and to this site.
Anyway, Tor is NOT designed to protect you from attackers who have a global view of the internet. And who may have a global view of the internet? Right. The american government...
-
bitfool: why did you say "western cesspool"? Have anything against western liberty? :D. Or am I misunderstanding some irony there? Also: the American government doesn't have a "global" view of the internet. You're crossing into exaggerated paranoia :). They can't even stop Pirate Bay, which is (was) in a country which is a staunch US ally (namely Sweden). Don't worry so much mate :).
kmfkewm & CoolGrey: you both make sense. Indeed when 2 people drop from IRC in the same time, yeah, it's apparent. But with a browser, it is harder to know the exact moment when somebody lost internet connectivity because a browser doesn't usually have a permanent connection with the client. Usually it's based on request-service. Unless a website is used with you refreshing every 5 seconds, they can't know when you go down on both connections. There is an exception to this: websites which use wait-for-request or the so called Comet protocol, which maintain a connection to the client, or something like this.
-
I've nothing against liberty - as a matter of fact I'm a radical libertarian and that's why I'm hardly impressed with western 'liberty' - Do I need to point out that in the West people are 'free' to buy only what politicians and pharma companies allow them to buy? =P
The US government may not be able to have pirate bay shut down (at least for the time being) but that doesn't mean they can't monitor internet traffic. It just so happens that they do...
https://www.eff.org/nsa-spying
>the American government doesn't have a "global" view of the internet.
They may not need it either. They may be able to find a hidden service by only monitoring a part of the network. After all they only need to correlate traffic getting into the (onion) network and out of it.
-
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
Correction: Vidalia offers the option to hide tor usage from isp...
Not sure about other software...
How do you enable that? I went under options and can't find that anywhere