Silk Road forums

Discussion => Silk Road discussion => Topic started by: QualityFakes on February 26, 2012, 11:58 pm

Title: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: QualityFakes on February 26, 2012, 11:58 pm
I'm going to start this essay by breaking down my argument into two different points of discussion. First, I'll lay out ideologically why I'm opposed to the creation of this new site and why I think guns should be banned on Silk Road. Then, in the next section I'll explain why practically the site is a bad idea and a danger to the continued existence of Silk Road. I ask you to read both and decide if either of my arguments warrants discussion.

Let's begin.


Ideology:

Up until now, Silk Road has mainly been about one thing: access to drugs (and other restricted items, but mostly drugs.) The website is a route to circumvent governmental restrictions on drugs, restrictions that most users here clearly feel are unwarranted. Whatever your position on governmental authority, you most likely feel that the government attempting to regulate morality is wrong. So, you come here and make an individual choice to consume what you feel - that's your prerogative.

Because of this, Silk Road seems to have a noble purpose: letting the individual choose. Who says the government has any right to tell you what you can put in your body?

Simply put, the War on Drugs is an extension of the government's attempt to regulate morality. Most people, drug users or not, agree with this. Sure, it also aims to address a public health problem, but the truth is that it far overreaches past that. And because of this, Silk Road exists for a good cause. In almost all cases, drug use is victimless crime. The individual makes the choice to consume, and should have a right to that decision. That's where SR comes in.

But with the creation of a new site that specifically aims to facilitate small-arms trading, the whole notion of Silk Road being noble in its aims goes right out the window. Unlike drugs, guns are NOT victimless. Their use is the very definition of a crime with a victim.

In creating The Armory, SR has claimed that they are actually promoting individual choice by creating the new site. (See their announcement for source material.) They want to make sure the minority has its voice heard, and that by itself may seem like a cause worth defending. Philosophers since Plato have decried the "tyranny of the majority" and the societal problems it causes. But at some point, when the views of the minority (in this case, those who want guns) come into conflict with the aims of civil society, they must be ignored.
 
Guns exist specifically for the purpose of taking away the individual choice of another. Their use in developed nations does nothing to promote the self-defense that SR is talking about.

This ideology of doing anything to protect the minority leads right down a slippery slope. For example: I was reading the comments on SR's original post about the creation of the new site, and some had asked when SR would create a CP site. Quickly (and rightfully) someone responded, "that's pretty sick." But what about the minority that enjoys CP? Why does the majority of people have the right to tell others what they can and can't watch? For the same reason guns should be banned on SR: victims. The production of CP hurts others, specifically children. That's why it's illegal in the first place, whether or not you think it's sick.

"Without [The Armory]," they say, "those with weapons will eventually walk all over defenseless individuals." In history, and in some contemporary situations, this might be true. It is not true in developed nations today. There is no "organized government body committing genocide on an entire unarmed populace." The fact is that countries like the United States are much better off without guns floating around. Except for a situation in which a non-government actor (like a robber or a murderer, for example) is using his own gun against you, there is no set of circumstances in which you are better off being armed. Where would these non-governmental actors get their weapons? Well, right here, of course.

The myth of guns being necessary for self-defense in developed nations like the US only promotes more violence as more people are armed. Despite the resistance of groups like the NRA, this has been proven true time and time again.

Drugs are an individual choice, a matter in which the government should have no jurisdiction. Weapons are another story. For this reason, I urge SR to at least ban weapons sales in places like the United States and Europe, where their use could cause serious damage. I have no control over SR's moral complex, but I ask him to think about the consequences of his actions.


Practicality:

Since 9/11, almost all LE agencies have terrorism as their number one priority. This is wildly known. Any cases in which terrorism might be connected in some way are prioritized over others, even those of drug cartels and organized crime.

By creating The Armory, SR just took one giant leap from the bottom of the FBI's list of things wrong with the world right to the near-top. Suddenly, SR has the potential to sell guns to terrorists. (Not saying that's the aim of SR, but seeing as it is an anonymous marketplace, it's entirely possible.) Yes, it's small-arms, but it's still guns, and it won't look any different to LE.

Whether or not you agree with my moral stance above, you have to see the danger in creating an SR-like site for guns. You're attracting unnecessary attention. LE will do everything in its power to take down The Armory, and the Silk Road we all know and love will fall as collateral damage. Nobody wants that to happen.

So please, for the sake of the existing SR marketplace, take down The Armory. Its existence can only cause trouble.

EDIT: Changed one "it's" to "its" at the end.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: redforeva on February 27, 2012, 12:02 am
I am sick of seeing this debate on firearms going on...
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 12:11 am
Quote
Guns exist specifically for the purpose of taking away the individual choice of another. Their use in developed nations does nothing to promote the self-defense that SR is talking about.

Obviously you've never been attacked by a pipe wielding punk before.
I HAVE
Gun DO promote self defense

You're probably the same sort of person that supports the idea that a switchblade is more dangerous and than an average knife because of it's opening mechanism. (a knife is a knife, who cares how it opens)


Quote
The myth of guns being necessary for self-defense in developed nations like the US only promotes more violence as more people are armed. Despite the resistance of groups like the NRA, this has been proven true time and time again.
A total lie, you make this shit up dont you.

If this was true then explain to me why Switzerland (were 99.6% of the population is armed) has a MUCH lower crime rate than the U.K (were almost nobody is armed). Also, gun violence in Switzerland is almost nill, were as it is still prevalent in the U.K
Did I mention that all members of the armed forces (BTW, service is mandatory) are allowed to keep their MACHINE GUN at home and are also allowed to carry it to any public location or building. Basically you have a country were near everyone is armed (some with FA rifles) and yet they have no gun violence.

Your argument is not just wrong, you have to resort to lies just to support it. It's dead, just like I would have been in Chicago had I not been armed (cause of the guy with a pipe).
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: gustono on February 27, 2012, 12:18 am
I agree with the OP. As soon as someone uses a gun which can be identified as coming from The Armory in a negative light, so that the media knows about it, that is A LOT of unwanted attention brought to this community.

There is nothing more terrifying to the average human than the thought of being able to buy a weapon THEMSELVES and potentially kill people.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 12:23 am
Quote
There is nothing more terrifying to the average human than the thought of being able to buy a weapon THEMSELVES and potentially kill people.

Again, the gun is not the reason but rather to tool
You can still do this even without a gun, you can kill people (even groups) with gasoline, any number or lethal/poison substances or even a bomb. Hell you can kill people with your fist or a sharpened piece of metal. The issue is with the want t kill, not the method by which it's done.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 12:26 am
OP:

I appreciate the thoughts put in your post, but frankly, I stopped reading after 2 lines for one simple reason.

You state: "Silk Road was a place to get drugs, not only but primarily"

I think that therefore the rest of your post is based on the wrong premise. I believe that Silk Road was founded to allow self-determining individuals to trade with other self-determining individuals without being oppressed by a government or the tyranny of the majority. No where did it ever say "drugs only". So I think your perspective was too narrow from  the get-go.

I too have strongly favored guns disappearing from the road, but I did so merely in petty self-interest. I want this site to live for my own benefit because it offers me something, and I believe that the combination of drugs AND guns opens too many avenues for the sites adversaries to gather forces and rally support.

Be that as it may, from the approach you take, Silk Road was a simply a drug market that somehow now allowed guns, you are working off the wrong premise.

just my 2 c
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 12:28 am
Quote
Guns exist specifically for the purpose of taking away the individual choice of another. Their use in developed nations does nothing to promote the self-defense that SR is talking about.

Obviously you've never been attacked by a pipe wielding punk before.
I HAVE
Gun DO promote self defense

You're probably the same sort of person that supports the idea that a switchblade is more dangerous and than an average knife because of it's opening mechanism. (a knife is a knife, who cares how it opens)


Quote
The myth of guns being necessary for self-defense in developed nations like the US only promotes more violence as more people are armed. Despite the resistance of groups like the NRA, this has been proven true time and time again.
A total lie, you make this shit up dont you.

If this was true then explain to me why Switzerland (were 99.6% of the population is armed) has a MUCH lower crime rate than the U.K (were almost nobody is armed). Also, gun violence in Switzerland is almost nill, were as it is still prevalent in the U.K
Did I mention that all members of their armed forces (BTW, service is mandatory) are allowed to keep their issued MACHINE GUN at home and are also allowed to carry it to any public location or building. Basically you have a country were near everyone is armed (some with FA rifles) and yet they have no gun violence.

Your argument is not just wrong, you have to resort to lies just to support it. It's dead, just like I would have been in Chicago had I not been armed (cause of the guy with a pipe).
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 12:29 am
Again, the gun is not the reason but rather to tool

You forgot one component though, often, the gun is also the "opportunity"
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 12:36 am
The idea that guns are evil tools of destruction really bothers me.

My guns never hurt anyone... I have dozens of guns and I will never harm anyone that isn't attempting to harm me.

I have been robbed at gun point, I have been stabbed, and I have been jumped by a gang of "troubled youth" for being the wrong color. I will not be a victim again, and I strongly support an individual's right to self defense. Some people have drug felonies on their records. Drug felony = no legal guns for you. I believe SR is doing the right thing by allowing people easy access to self defense tools. Yea, maybe someone will buy a gun off of SR and shoot innocent people... This is the risk we take in a free society. I am willing to give up a little bit of perceived safety in order to maintain my personal liberty.

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jochem on February 27, 2012, 12:36 am
Thus far I haven't really bothered going into this discussion, but lets give it a go.

I find that whatever my neighbor does is his business and I'm not the one to judge. While you now might feel that drugs should morally be OK, this morale has been different and will different. The same goes for actions that cause victims. We might find it appalling now that someone murders someone else, but this too has been different and will different (take for example the Romans, who used people from conquered lands to fight till dead in their arena's).

Now, I don't feel that SR has the obligation of facilitating everything that's moral and immoral. I feel that SR should be a private endeavour, like a business, that makes it's own decisions based on whatever SR thinks is right or wrong (for whatever reason - morale, money, chance). This is much like any other business is conducted, except SR does not have to work within the law. Hopefully we as users can impact those decisions a bit by showing our opinion.

From a practical point of view I agree with you. By allowing guns, SR got the attention of many more law enforcement agencies. It also shows up really bad in the press. The Armory is still basically a part of SR, which doesn't solve the issue of attention from LE a lot. It might help a bit more with the bad press. The Armory should be totally cut off from SR to ensure that both businesses don't get into trouble, but I believe exactly that is proposed as long term solution.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: moonbear on February 27, 2012, 12:47 am
What if someone lives in a third-world country and needs a gun to protect themselves. The government should be afraid of the people, the people should not be afraid of the government.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Addy on February 27, 2012, 12:48 am
I disagree with many points in the first half of your post, but whole-heartedly agree with the second half.

Why I disagree with the first half is irrelevant, though, as it's really the second half that we (meaning DPR) should consider when making decisions like the institution of the Armory.

Firearms sales alone drew some attention to Silk Road, but nothing noticeable really came from it. It is indisputable that the creation of the Armory will cause more press and more effort to destroy both. There are (and will be) attempts to bring the Road down, but it's not the biggest threat right now.

With the Armory, you can be sure it will be known. If Gawker and a couple subsequent articles increased Silk Road's popularity several-fold, this place is going to get hit with more traffic HARD after this decision. Whether even a single gun sale occurs over there, the damage will be done. Anyone with any authority or power is going to learn about both sites, and shit is going to hit the fan.

Imagine the size of the cookie given to whoever can topple the largest and most ambitious online Firearms and Drug markets ever.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 12:49 am
The idea that guns are evil tools of destruction really bothers me.

My guns never hurt anyone... I have dozens of guns and I will never harm anyone that isn't attempting to harm me.

I have been robbed at gun point, I have been stabbed, and I have been jumped by a gang of "troubled youth" for being the wrong color. I will not be a victim again, and I strongly support an individual's right to self defense. Some people have drug felonies on their records. Drug felony = no legal guns for you. I believe SR is doing the right thing by allowing people easy access to self defense tools. Yea, maybe someone will buy a gun off of SR and shoot innocent people... This is the risk we take in a free society. I am willing to give up a little bit of perceived safety in order to maintain my personal liberty.


I understand your point, partially concur with it. However, whilst I agree with the fact that an individual should not be oppressed by the "tyranny of the majority", there are certain issues where the needs of the many really do outweigh the needs of the few. Yes there is self-defense, yes a gun has a valid purpose for that. However, that purpose comes at the price of the possibility of adding "opportunity" to many situations that would otherwise maybe end less "damaging"

If self-defense is the issue, modern Tasers are just as efficient as guns but non-lethal, fuck a good dog can be more of a deterrent than the "well maybe my victim has a gun" thought.

Anyways, the reason I really felt like responding to your post, was your assertion of "giving up a little safety for freedom"

That's thrown around a lot, particularly in libertarian/neo-con circles. The problem I have with that is simple. Who decides, for society as a whole, how much safety to sacrifice? What if I don't want my kid to grow up in streets with easy access to firearms. Why is my need for that safety worth less, than someone else's need to "protect themselves" with a firearm? Therein lies the crux.

People that make this argument really do the same thing government does right now, just with a different perspective favoring their wanting to carry a gun. Just as government now ignorantly says "fuck you ex-felon no guns for you", people that make the "liberty over safety"-argument say "fuck you safety lover" no gun free zones for you.

Just some random thoughts.

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: lefthandspinner on February 27, 2012, 12:59 am
would u guys really order guns in the post thats way to dodgy they might of been used in murders and shit already,would anyone order guns internatinal
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: BenJesuit on February 27, 2012, 01:01 am
A lot of good thoughts, especially those of JohnWholesome. I like his frank honesty.

To the OP; you're mixing your personal sensibility in with what SR actually represents. JohnWholesome addressed it well enough that I won't belabor the point.

Time will tell if having a subsidiary firearm market will actually flourish. I don't think it will considering the risk of buying a firearm and having it delivered via the mail. But we'll see.

Since there really isn't much precedent to gauge the right or wrong, good or bad, of an anonymous firearm black market, why not just wait and see and not let your fear get in the way of a grand experiment?

There is no definite or emphatic, "why The Armory is a bad idea." We just don't know if it is. Most of the speculation is based on fear and not on anything wholly rational all the while appearing reasonable.

Let it ride. Trust Dread Pirate Robert to take swift and appropriate action to save SR in the event that The Armory proves to be detrimental to SR's existence. He doesn't want to see SR go either.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 01:03 am
Quote
That's thrown around a lot, particularly in libertarian/neo-con circles. The problem I have with that is simple. Who decides, for society as a whole, how much safety to sacrifice? What if I don't want my kid to grow up in streets with easy access to firearms. Why is my need for that safety worth less, than someone else's need to "protect themselves" with a firearm? Therein lies the crux.

"For the children."

That's a term thrown around by the anti-drug zealots in our government also.

My personal liberty should not be sacrificed for your false sense of security.

I don't want my children growing up with easy access to drugs. -- SR should ban drugs.  :-\

The right to bear arms is a "God" given right, it isn't something the government should be able to take away from you. Some people may disagree, but that's one of the founding concepts of my country's constitution. SR is allowing oppressed people a route to exercise their right.

Violent criminals already have guns.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 01:10 am
The right to bear arms is a God-given right...


Okay, I'm out of this discussion. Rationality just completely went out the window.......
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 01:18 am
The right to bear arms is a God-given right...


Okay, I'm out of this discussion. Rationality just completely went out the window.......

I'm an atheist, hence the quotation marks. I used the term god for lack of a better term.

I'm just saying... The right to bear arms is crucial in a truly free society. Owning a gun for self defense is a right the government should not have control over.

Then again, I don't really care if SR continues to allow gun sales or not. Guns are easily obtained in America. I don't see much of an online market for them. Perhaps in other countries...
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 01:43 am
Quote
Okay, I'm out of this discussion. Rationality just completely went out the window.......
So not only do you hate gun owners but you also hate religious people.
you know a certain somehitler also didn't like people to have guns and he persecuted people based on religion.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 01:45 am
Okay in that case...sorry. I got that totally wrong. I thought you were some "God wants me to have guns" guys :)

Dun laugh! They are out there!

I understand what you are saying. It makes sense to me. I have huge beef with all forms of government.

However, that being said, government is only one of many incarnations of trying to establish a set of rules that allows all the members of a given society to live together peacefully.

I personally believe that the idea that an "armed population" ensures "freedom" for all is antiquated, and that the unintended side-effects outweigh the factual benefit.

I am not a sociologist, nor do I believe in most of the published studies in this matter, they're all biased, no matter if to the left or the right of the issue.

But really, does anyone still believe the "evil government" will stay out if they are "afraid" of the guns? Simply speaking...no! Why? Because they will always have more and better guns. Waco anyone?

But I'm digressing really.

What I am getting it is this. Me being on the "more gun regulation" or "no guns" side (get this though, I am quite the avid shooter! Kick in the head, innit?), I simply do believe that the plain unbiased numbers simply show that easy access to firearms comes with more harm than benefit.

I do not believe that a society where everyone carries a firearm is a very polite society, that's a fallacy. It will be a society where everyone is polite until they dun like something, say the cheating wife, or the neighbors dog barking 3am in the morning. And this is where shit hits the fan.

So to come back to my kids argument. I am not the government, I have kids, I do not  feel good with my kids being in an environment where guns are easily accessible, because gun use is irreversible and devastating, and humans are to "error-prone".

This is not some government propaganda or government agenda to deprive you of your rights, it's me, your next-door neighbor fearing for the life of his kids. And in my opinion, the little added feeling of "PERCEIVED" liberty, is not worth to sacrifice one iota of my children's safety.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 01:48 am
So not only do you hate gun owners but you also hate religious people.
you know a certain somehitler also didn't like people to have guns and he persecuted people based on religion.

Who says I hate gun owners? Is my love of rationality and the fact that religious people are not very rational as they base their opinions on pure believe without evidence and indicator that I hate them?

Aaaaaah, I just figured you out! Everyone that doesn't agree with you is a Hitler-loving fascist!

Okay okay I get it :)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Angelology on February 27, 2012, 01:48 am
Guns are bad. But other people have them. So its necessary for you to also own one. Firearms MUST be regulated by the government. It is wrong to sell firearms. You know when you sell a gun illegally, that person intends to kill somebody, otherwise they would obtain it legitimately, unless they live in some shitty EU country where guns aren't allowed.

My reply only applies to USA. So don't quote me and bitch about how your government doesn't allow citizens to own guns.

The problem with SR selling guns, is they are extremely taboo. Since we are affiliated with this new site, they might as well be listed on here. The media isn't stupid, just the people paying attention to it.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 01:53 am
Meh.

@ Johnwholesome
- We're on the opposite sides of the issue and neither of us are changing our minds anytime soon.
:P

I respect your opinion.

I wish I was anti-gun... It would be easier to pick the lesser of 2 evils at the voting booth.  :-\

Honestly, I am pro-gun because I love blowing shit up.

Self defense is secondary, but I do train A LOT.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 01:55 am
Quote
Aaaaaah, I just figured you out! Everyone that doesn't agree with you is a Hitler-loving fascist!
Nah, i'm not glenn beck.
I dont think everyone is hitler.
I just dont like people bashing my beliefs, my people have been persecuted enough already
(by the Egyptians, Romans, Hitler, the Russians and the Palestinians (and many Christians))

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 01:56 am
Meh.

@ Johnwholesome
- We're on the opposite sides of the issue and neither of us are changing our minds anytime soon.
:P

I respect your opinion.

I wish I was anti-gun... It would be easier to pick the lesser of 2 evils at the voting booth.  :-\

Honestly, I am pro-gun because I love blowing shit up.

Self defense is secondary, but I do train A LOT.

Dude seriously, we're not as far apart as you think haha. Man I just love going to Vegas and hitting all those ranges where you can rent a SAW or an MP5 or a TommyGun and just let it rip.

I do indeed also respect your opinion, it has many valid points. I just don't have enough confidence in humans to trust that everyone will be as sensible as you seem to be :)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 01:59 am
Quote
Dude seriously, we're not as far apart as you think haha. Man I just love going to Vegas and hitting all those ranges where you can rent a SAW or an MP5 or a TommyGun and just let it rip.
Try growing up with a father who owns 2 MP40s and a Thomson (with the furniture to resemble an M1 or 1928 and all 4 magazine types)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 02:02 am
Quote
Aaaaaah, I just figured you out! Everyone that doesn't agree with you is a Hitler-loving fascist!
Nah, i'm not glenn beck.
I dont think everyone is hitler.
I just dont like people bashing my beliefs, my people have been persecuted enough already
(by the Egyptians, Romans, Hitler, the Russians and the Palestinians (and many Christians))

No bashing intended brother. My statement was merely "rationality out the window". I have no real opinion about religious people. I admit I may belittle them now and then, but otherwise, if it works for them - who am I to judge?

But for the rationality point again, "believes" by their very definition aren't rational. I make this statement without any intent of putting a value on that, no "right or wrong" judgment. Strongly religious people tend to argue with non-rational arguments, this is usually when I leave, because trying to find a common "rationale" is my personal approach and the only one that works for me. Hence their way of arguing their case is something that is fruitless in my personal "logic".

There was neither hate, nor judgment, nor opinion in what I said there, simply the (at the point assumed) realization that if God comes into play there's nothing I have to add.

Peace bro
<3 ya all...
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 02:08 am
I have a few class 3 goodies. :)

Full auto is definitely fun but it's also extremely expensive.

Makes me sad.

$15,000~ for a little piece of metal (DIAS)
FML

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 02:10 am
Yeah no shit! I'm totally in love with the MP5SSD, pretty surgical with that bitch too. but 15 to 25K legal, FUCK THAT SHIT!
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 02:44 am
Quote
I have a few class 3 goodies. :)
Yeah I'm a huge fan of the SBS and AOW scene.
Looking at filling out my first form 1 some time this year.


Quote
$15,000~ for a little piece of metal (DIAS)
Tell me about it.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Spedly on February 27, 2012, 03:08 am
A lot of people complained about guns on Silk Road. So DPR creates a new site for the sole purpose of selling firearms, and prohibiting them from being sold on Silk Road...

...and people still complain.

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 03:18 am
A lot of people complained about guns on Silk Road. So DPR creates a new site for the sole purpose of selling firearms, and prohibiting them from being sold on Silk Road...

...and people still complain.

Buyers of illicit goods ALWAYS complain......it's the law.....:)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: type on February 27, 2012, 03:30 am
not much bad stuff on it yet
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: tcobambientAgain on February 27, 2012, 05:39 am
Already made my point in the "official" announcement but I just have a bad feeling about this.  This is not going to turn out good and is going to affect SR. 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 05:41 am
Frankly, this "stealth seller" thing worries me more. I'm buying rather infrequently, and the idea that somehow now I will only have second-tier access is kinda queefing all over me.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: beefy on February 27, 2012, 06:04 am
I'm just going to say i don't like gun. if no guns were sold, somehow i think there's be more peace and less murder. As far as self defense, pepper spray really does some damage and gives you time to run away.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: tcobambientAgain on February 27, 2012, 06:10 am
Also,

If I see a vendor that I buy from start selling guns or anything related I'm done and will move onto another seller. 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 06:14 am
I'm just going to say i don't like gun. if no guns were sold, somehow i think there's be more peace and less murder. As far as self defense, pepper spray really does some damage and gives you time to run away.

Pepper spray versus multiple tweaked out attackers? Get real.

Only things helping in that situation is a lot of hollow points and training.

If guns didn't exist, we would kill each other with sticks. People are violent, it's a fact of life.

There have been a lot of mass stabbings in countries where guns are overly regulated. Crazy people are crazy. (LOTS of mass murders in Chinese schools over the past couple of years)

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 27, 2012, 09:59 am
Quote
There is no "organized government body committing genocide on an entire unarmed populace."

But there is an organized government body systematically imprisoning entire populations. They are heavily armed. We should also be heavily armed.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: novocaine on February 27, 2012, 11:18 am
I'm just going to say i don't like gun. if no guns were sold, somehow i think there's be more peace and less murder. As far as self defense, pepper spray really does some damage and gives you time to run away.


There have been a lot of mass stabbings in countries where guns are overly regulated. Crazy people are crazy. (LOTS of mass murders in Chinese schools over the past couple of years)

I live in one of those heavily regulated countries and if I want to shoot somebody I will go and get a gun illegally.
As it is, I like gun regulation. The thought of overly skittish, prescribed, gun wielding redneck grandma's and paranoid anarchists scare the bejesus out of me..

Mass stabbings heh? take a country that is overly regulated against guns and match murders per capita  against a gun and jesus loving country like the good ole US of A..

Here.

In 2000 USA had 4.55 intentional homicides per 100000 jesus lovers
In 2000 Australia had 1.57 intentional homicides per 100000 mates

USA 2000ad, 65% of those homicides were with guns
Aus 2000ad, 20% of those homicides were with guns (fewer than 16% in 2003)

edit- sauce: UN Office on drugs and crime(2000)

This data tells me.
a/ USA love killing people
b/ They love killing people with guns
c/ Its easier for some cunt to pull out a gun and shoot somebody in the back in the dark than man up and stab him while you look him in the eye as the life drains out his body.
d/ I dont buy the propaganda about protecting ones self by being armed bullshit. You just love killing shit full stop.
e/ I want a gun to shoot paper targets.


Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 27, 2012, 01:55 pm
Well, we all born with sort of a fascist embryo inside. It's kind a hard to behave in an open market when everyone always believe to have something to say or decide or... dictate... on others' lives.
I'm a supportive of informed choices rather than controlling bs. If A knows what he's buying and B has it... their problem. For me it's worse that a seller try to sell rotten fish as fresh than a crack dealer specifying clearly what he is selling.

If you go down the line of "I agree to this", "I agree to that", "you shouldn't be selling this", "you shouldn't be selling that"... you end up with a broken or inop market, as you may find people to be against the sale of <put whatsoever here, from fish to drugs, from sand to guns>.
SR gets a double hit of drag to Tor people unsuitable to Tor, way more attached to the regulated clearwebs where download a boring movie is already high felony. Not by SR's fault but the kind of publicity it got.

novocaine,

Australia doesn't count for comparison to nothing, it's far from everything and even Aussies live too far from each others.  ;D
US of A is an example of many oddities, but at Switzerland every male has a gun and murder ratio is way small. Guns don't kill people, people kills people.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Pinguboy on February 27, 2012, 03:48 pm
I agree with the thread starter.
Believing that owning a gun provides safety is pretty noob imo.
What this world needs is LESS guns, not more!
SR going in this direction makes me skeptical..
Should I support a group that enables ANY person to get their hands on guns?
I imagine all the freakin' nazis in my country going "yaaaaaay" now we can prepare ourselves even better.

:(
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: space_case on February 27, 2012, 04:46 pm
The first part of your argument is total bs.  Your premis seems to be that by there very nature guns are bad and any time they are used constitutes a crime.  I don't own a gun, but I know many people who do. None that I know of have ever committed a crime with a gun, while I know a few who have successfully defended themselves and there homes from criminals.  Guns aren't by their nature bad. I will admit that they aren't by nature good either. It really just depends on what an individual decides to do with their gun, but I'm not in the business of making decisions for others.

The second half of your argument seems, to me, be be fairly valid. But, I think the whole point of the new site is to take that particular level of attention away from SR and toward another site altogether.  Either way my security is in my own hands, and I have no particular attachment to SR. If SR is taken down, I've done everything I know how to protect myself, and will simply go back into the shadows.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: BenJesuit on February 27, 2012, 05:47 pm
This thread is too late. Sorry.

But more importantly, setting aside your personal sensibilities, why not have a bit of faith in Dread Pirate Robert? He doesn't want to see SR go down anymore than as any of us do. So why not assume he's got things on lock down and has anticipated possible LE scenarios. He would have had to considering that the Armory isn't going to bring in commissions anywhere near the main SR will.

His motivation for creating it is likely to be in keeping with what SR is all about. A free market without government encumbrance.

So stop worrying so much and have a bit of faith. Buck up!

 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 27, 2012, 06:18 pm
I really have to clear up a complete and utter misconception about Switzerland here.

TRUE: Every male in the militia age group has THE FIREARM

FALSE: They also have the ammo.

The ONLY AND ONLY have the firearm. Ammo is handed out when they are called  in for actual drills etc. THE SALE OF AMMO, is generally illegal, and where it isn't illegal (hunting license etc.) it is HIGHLY restricted.

So yes, all the guys in Switzerland have an unloaded gun and no way to get ammo for it. One should mention that when quoting how well their "gun ownership" works.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: MailMaxDev on February 27, 2012, 06:40 pm
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mutual_assured_destruction
If everyone was armed I think it's possible that less people would be robbed/attacked. Then again, there's some people that just shouldn't have access to guns. I'm split on this.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: BenJesuit on February 27, 2012, 07:06 pm
I don't like the harm argument because it can't be exclusively applied to firearms. There are some people who shouldn't be buying some addictive drugs. They may be in a circumstance that harms loved ones, friends, neighbors, and coworkers because of their use. There's no such thing as simply harming yourself if you are part of a community.

So really, the harm argument as a reason that guns shouldn't be sold is weak, however valid it may be.

We can't assume that those who might buy firearms on the new SR are doing so to go out and harm someone.  They could also buy powered Fentanyl to harm someone.

Sure, the ultimate point of firearms is to harm even if for defense (the assailant is being harmed). But then at that point it's a moral dilemma. Kill or be killed?

Anyway, DPR has considered the potential harm this might conceivably do to SR. I'm sure steps are in place to protect it as much as possible.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 27, 2012, 07:13 pm
Quote
The ONLY AND ONLY have the firearm. Ammo is handed out when they are called  in for actual drills etc. THE SALE OF AMMO, is generally illegal, and where it isn't illegal (hunting license etc.) it is HIGHLY restricted.

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. You can buy the ammo, I have a friend who goes to Switzerland regularly and his grandpa and him love to go out and shoot some of the old family heirloom rifles.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 10:59 pm
Quote
The ONLY AND ONLY have the firearm. Ammo is handed out when they are called  in for actual drills etc. THE SALE OF AMMO, is generally illegal, and where it isn't illegal (hunting license etc.) it is HIGHLY restricted.

I'm pretty sure that's incorrect. You can buy the ammo, I have a friend who goes to Switzerland regularly and his grandpa and him love to go out and shoot some of the old family heirloom rifles.

You're correct.

They're also given sealed boxes of ammunition. They periodically have inspections to make sure that none has been used.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: moz30 on February 27, 2012, 11:08 pm
One is true the only reason of a gun is to kill someone or something and not to wait for Zombies!
Everybody how need a weapon for sport or self defense buy a legal weapon.
The most people who buy a gun only need them for one time..
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ShieLdz on February 27, 2012, 11:16 pm
Guns exist specifically for the purpose of taking away the individual choice of another. Their use in developed nations does nothing to promote the self-defense that SR is talking about.

This ideology of doing anything to protect the minority leads right down a slippery slope. For example: I was reading the comments on SR's original post about the creation of the new site, and some had asked when SR would create a CP site. Quickly (and rightfully) someone responded, "that's pretty sick." But what about the minority that enjoys CP? Why does the majority of people have the right to tell others what they can and can't watch? For the same reason guns should be banned on SR: victims. The production of CP hurts others, specifically children. That's why it's illegal in the first place, whether or not you think it's sick.

"Without [The Armory]," they say, "those with weapons will eventually walk all over defenseless individuals." In history, and in some contemporary situations, this might be true. It is not true in developed nations today. There is no "organized government body committing genocide on an entire unarmed populace." The fact is that countries like the United States are much better off without guns floating around. Except for a situation in which a non-government actor (like a robber or a murderer, for example) is using his own gun against you, there is no set of circumstances in which you are better off being armed. Where would these non-governmental actors get their weapons? Well, right here, of course.

The myth of guns being necessary for self-defense in developed nations like the US only promotes more violence as more people are armed. Despite the resistance of groups like the NRA, this has been proven true time and time again.
looks like somebody grew in the burbs...jk
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 27, 2012, 11:21 pm
There's no "utter misconception" about Switzerland. They've the hardest thing to smuggle and you want to F BS about how hard it is to smuggle ammo if they intended to?!
But there's a difference in the swiss guns, they are given along with military discipline, military also carry guns all the time and aren't shooting each others. That's probably the issue with USA, being for free to have it many are just fatsos practicing in their own backyard and lacking any military and gun discipline whatsoever.

Edit: like at WA this week, a 7 yo kid with a gun in his backpack... nice parenthood and gun safety, ain't it?
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 11:26 pm

Edit: like at WA this week, a 7 yo kid with a gun in his backpack... nice parenthood and gun safety, ain't it?

Occurrences like that are VERY rare.

But the parents should definitely be imprisoned for allowing it to happen.

Not all gun owners are dipshits.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 27, 2012, 11:32 pm
I hadn't say that they are all dipshits, but advocate that some gun discipline must be imposed along with the gun itself. Otherwise... shit happens and will happen.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TheNewDude on February 27, 2012, 11:33 pm
I hadn't say that they are all dipshits, but advocate that some gun discipline must be imposed along with the gun itself. Otherwise... shit happens and will happen.

I agree. Everyone should actively seek out firearms training prior to purchasing a gun.

A lot of "accidents" can be prevented by using common sense as well.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Habitat on February 28, 2012, 12:03 am
I'm sorry, I can tell the OP has put a lot of thought into this, BUT this topic has been discussed, played out, and voted upon sooo many fucking times the past month or two (thanks again gawker). it really has lost it's pizazz quickly. the first week, too be honest. there cannot possibly be anything new to say about the subject.

it all comes down to these things - no matter what:
1. you don't own the site. therefore, your opinion - along with mine - ultimately, does not matter in regards to what is and isn't aloud here. I'm sorry, but that's just the way it is. it would be different if you, yourself, created Silk Road. but, you did not. DPR did. the buck stops with him.

2. it's a free market. that means anything fucking goes. if you don't agree with it, don't like it, or are just flat out appalled by it, then, in essence, you are not really for a free market at all. you cannot choose to allow one illegal item and reject the next, no matter what your personal beliefs are. it just does not work that way. and if it upsets you that fucking much, then forge your own personal protest and stop coming here. boycott the shit out of this place - if it really makes you feel better. but just know that you cannot influence the freedom of this site through personal and biased beliefs. if you could, then the general principle of this site just wouldn't work. it would collapse within itself causing an implosion not unlike a spontaneous combustion.  :) :) product censorship will not fly here - especially if there is a demand for said product...which brings me to my last point...

3. if there is a demand for it, it will be sold. it will. it's basic business economics. until the demand for firearms - or any item, really - drops, someone will always be there to supply. therefore, until you, yourself, are able to somehow literally influence the demand for a product you do not approve of, you better get used to that product being around. there is a demand. therefore, it will be supplied. no demand. no supply.

to sum it all up, thread after thread after thread about the same god damn discussion will not influence the ultimate decision. if that were the case, this site would be way fucking different from what we see now. so with that said, thank you DPR for not listening to every stupid thing someone proposes. this site works. and it works because of the way it is. total access to freedom. no restrictions. no censorship. don't like it? go begin writing tens of thousands of pages of code for your own site. or better yet, simply go window shop on the streets and forget this place.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: BenJesuit on February 28, 2012, 12:15 am
You're right on many points.

But you missed a very important one.

Some are just afraid that gun sales on SR will be the death of it. It's a somewhat rational fear but a fear based on speculation. There really is no precedent to SR. SR is the precedent. So we really don't know if it will increase law enforcement efforts to shut this place down. Perhaps if gun sales explode to levels of actual concern they might try a few tactics to at least undermine that market. Who knows for sure.

I'd rather trust DPR to do everything he can to make sure SR can withstand LE assault. And that he created a separate market for weapons leads me to believe he's got things in check.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Habitat on February 28, 2012, 12:36 am
@benjesuit. I understand that point. I have made it myself a month ago. I have read dozens and dozens of replies from people making the same fucking point.

guns will not be the death of SR - if that were the case, it would have already died. and if it were already dead, another SR site would pop up right away with a different link from a different server. literally, right away. do you really think that someone as knowledgeable in computer science as DPR is would go through all of this trouble and NOT have a back up plan to a project of this size, magnitude, and this illegal? I highly doubt it.

trust me, if the FBI, DEA, and whoever the fuck else, really wanted to - I mean, really, really wanted to - they would shut SR down. but do you really think a dozen venders selling a couple guns a piece really fucking matter to them (them = LE agencies)? I highly doubt that also.

a few extremely small time gun runners are most likely not at the top of their list of people to bust. and if that were the case, LE would bust THEM - not SR. so really, all of the risks fall onto either the venders or the buyers of said firearms. with silk road being the intangible middleman, I doubt anything would happen.

as I said, if anything were to happen, it would of happened all ready. and if it did happen, we would be buying and vending from a different server/site already.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 12:41 am
What makes you believe that drugs would cut SR some slack that guns won't?!
At many countries, specially Asia, drug dealing has death penalty and severe penalties at most states in US. And you talk of it as if it was of any "minor offense" being guns dealing a "major one"?!  ::)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 28, 2012, 01:09 am
@Ianfleming

yo that's well possible, in Switzerland, as well as in the rest of Europe, rifle ammo is somewhat easier to get than handgun ammo. Hunting and all that, so it makes sense if your pal goes out with the family especially if they own land or have hunting licenses. Handguns, totally different story though. It is virtually impossible to get handgun ammo legally, unless you have like a gazillion different licenses.

Also, just forgot to mention that, you should also consider that only the actual militia conscripts have the gun at home, not every male per se, and all conscripts have to have a psych evaluation before getting it. So, just thought I clear that up a bit, it's really not like RÜTLIIII! You is a Swiss Man, here's your burner, have fun with it!!! :)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 28, 2012, 01:22 am
Quote
Also, just forgot to mention that, you should also consider that only the actual militia conscripts have the gun at home, not every male per se, and all conscripts have to have a psych evaluation before getting it. So, just thought I clear that up a bit, it's really not like RÜTLIIII! You is a Swiss Man, here's your burner, have fun with it!!! :)
The Swiss have mandatory service (male and female) and you get to keep your gun when you leave, though it is converted to semi-auto only.
However everyone in the service can keep their FA rifle with them and carry it as they see fit.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on February 28, 2012, 01:26 am
I thought they had gotten rid of the "keep-it-after-active-duty" rule in the 90s? Am I off on that one???
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 28, 2012, 03:47 am
I dont know, I think they still have it, though there may be restrictions or cost associated now.
But I know that there are Swiss ex-military with Sig 551s which were adopted in the 90s and are used in their armed forces.
So that would tend to mean that they still do get their rifles.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 04:27 am
But bottom line to go back OT:

Switzerland have a lot of guns in its citizens' hands and it's neither the far-west or a high criminal/murdering place.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Locrian on February 28, 2012, 04:35 am
I used to be pretty strongly for gun control, when I was younger.  I think it was more a function of the gun nuts I knew at that time, rather than of my age.  The argument I always seemed to hear was that people needed to be protected from the government.  That's why the second amendment was included, after all.  But if anyone thinks they're going to outgun the government with whatever rinky-dink little bullshit collection of rifles and handguns they have in their home, they are severely delusional and probably shouldn't have the weapons to begin with.  Just for the safety of anyone around them. :P  So yeah, dealing with idiots like that really colored my opinions on the issue for a long time.

The bottom line, for me, is that people should have a right to defend themselves.  Guns won't stop the government (theirs are bigger, better, and they have a lot more of them), but they aren't the only ones trying to step on your liberty and property.  You should be able to do something about it.

So yeah, I'm all for people having access to guns.  I'm not totally comfortable with having one myself, but that's my choice.  I don't necessarily think mixing them with drugs is the best idea, as it just makes SR that much more of a target, so I think the Armory is a fucking brilliant idea.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 04:41 am
« as it just makes SR that much more of a target, »

Target for what?
This network have loads of pedo site, 25 to life in most states, loads of drugs, loads of weapons, assassin's markets and "you name it". Don't you think that if any LEA can do something about it wouldn't be doing already instead of let the show carrying on?
SR is a target already... just stands over an invisible place.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: sonic on February 28, 2012, 05:24 am
You don't think drug kingpins rank higher on the law-enforcement agencies' radar screens?  They aren't worried about who sold the terrorists the guns because they have their copy of the receipts in their filing cabinets. 

The cartels are the wild-card for the time being, as Mexico is much closer to America (I'm assuming America for prosecution, seeing as they are the best source of firearms).  They don't need to buy expensive guns at a markup shipped, they have their mules get the cheap stuff in the States.  So again the focus would be drugs over guns when tackling the cartels and a possible SR presence.

I suppose what law enforcement agencies prioritize in the black markets vary by country.  In the US--where even criminals can easily obtain firearms--they may not worry much about an online black market for guns.  While prescription drug abuse is skyrocketing, they may be a little interested in a few of the heavy hitters here on SR.  Thankfully, the vendors here are much smarter and more technically savvy than the federal agents that just finally heard about LOLcats today.

Don't worry, remember that when they fight us they have already lost simply by waging a war on Internet freedom.  SR variants have existed since before mail order in one form or another.  This is only notable because it is the most brazen and transparent market of its kind.  The addition of escrow is another unique feature, helping to coax a leap of faith from anonymous buyers. 

If you were tasked with watching illicit markets, wouldn't you rather keep SR around as the enemy you know?  It would take far fewer resources to somehow compromise SR than to find and compromise dozens of smaller, more obscure and tight-knit markets scattered about the web.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: mushitup on February 28, 2012, 09:01 am
If they outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns.  There's nothing bad with guns at all, it's the people that bear them that worry me.  ;)

Gun markets are not a bad idea, it may be the only way a convicted felon in the US can get his human right to defend himself back...other than a long gun...meh.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 28, 2012, 10:15 am
« as it just makes SR that much more of a target, »

Target for what?
This network have loads of pedo site, 25 to life in most states, loads of drugs, loads of weapons, assassin's markets and "you name it". Don't you think that if any LEA can do something about it wouldn't be doing already instead of let the show carrying on?
SR is a target already... just stands over an invisible place.

from a 'time spent in prison' perspective you might almost wish you got caught downloading CP instead of getting drugs off SR. Of course from a "not being raped to death in prison" or "not being labeled a sex offender" perspective you should def stick to SR.

you are probably better off stealing a ton of credit card numbers than buying drugs too, even people who steal credit card data in massive amounts get trivial sentences compared to people busted with even small amounts of drugs. Why do you think carder forums tend to think drugs are so sketchy? They don't want that sort of attention on their forums!

in summary, I agree with the point you try to make entirely (although you are way off on the sentences for CP)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 12:25 pm
I do not quite mean "downloading CP", downloading can be a good thing if it prevents a potential pedo from come out and get some on his own, but "producing CP", those sentences are way harder.
During my time inside I came across 3 child rapist, one of which as cell mate for 1 night - we make a statement we don't want him there to the guards.
Those guys really wish they were caught dealing instead, all the time inside a solitary or risk they neck if spotted by somebody... on of them ended up in the hospital after get a broom stick up his ass.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 28, 2012, 12:33 pm
yeah actual child rapists tend to get sentences that are equal only to what mid level - high level drug dealers get. of course they also get raped with broom sticks for the duration of that sentence.

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 28, 2012, 12:35 pm
this dude molested a child and got a 6 year sentence

http://myfox8.com/2012/02/25/former-pastor-sentenced-for-child-molestation/

from a time served perspective he prob be out sooner than someone busted trafficking 100 grams of MDMA

even in the really fucked up cases of hardcore child rape the people convicted generally get sentences that they could have gotten for trafficking drugs in the amounts many of my friends do , enelysion could of prob molested a baby and gotten out of jail faster than he will
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 12:42 pm
of course they also get raped with broom sticks for the duration of that sentence.

Actually only if they come across high convicts, like those doing 20 years+ who don't give a damn if they will be there 2 more years or not.
For me and my kind no. I went down 1 year for weed and hashish (yeah, in those times weed was a "major offense") due to a fucking heroin freak who believed on "tell us a dealer name and we cut you some slack" cops bullshit and ratted me out (who never even sold him any heroin).
I wouldn't be risking extending the sentence because a fucking rapist, don't you think?
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 28, 2012, 12:49 pm
yeah but they have a much higher chance of getting a broomstick up the ass than someone who is doing a sentence for having weed does
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: tcobambientAgain on February 28, 2012, 01:22 pm
Another school shooting in the US.  This time in Ohio yesterday.  Keep putting more guns on the streets.  Things are working out great.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: DaMan on February 28, 2012, 07:05 pm
this dude molested a child and got a 6 year sentence

http://myfox8.com/2012/02/25/former-pastor-sentenced-for-child-molestation/

Actually I don't quite think that was too few, the case is from early 90's by 2 guys that were TEENS, not CHILD, at such time. Lately the press is pushing to make "molestation" the "society devil". Societies seams to have a weird need to have "devils"; before WW2 it was the Jews, by the 60's the gays, by 70's the junkies, 80~90's the dealers, 2000's the terrorists, mid-2000's onwards the "molesters".

Even if some psycho could well be put to fire, some others will be suffering hell in jail for nothing. The other day I almost got sick out of how pernicious brainwashing a fucking article can be. The headline was: «18 yo man abused 13 yo child»... WTF?! Since when an 18 yo BOY is a man? And since when a 13 yo TEEN is a child? Why not put «18 yo old man abused 13 yo newborn»?
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: bp on February 28, 2012, 07:23 pm
Another school shooting in the US.  This time in Ohio yesterday.  Keep putting more guns on the streets.  Things are working out great.

School...... the place where they make kids go want to or not.
They, as in the state, can only MAKE anyone do anything the same way any gangster does......by the implicit or explicit threat  of violence as the final resolution on their part should anyone refuse to comply,

That means GUNS when fines or jail isn't coercion enough.

So anyone who can see what government really is, robbery and slavery enforced by a gang with guns, knows that kids wouldn't be in schools as we know them if someone wasn't threatening to shoot their  parents should they not go.

Many a wise parent would choose a much different method for educating their kids without this violence looming over them, having already been robbed to pay for the system that continues  to fail in proportion to the money thrown into its bureaucratic wealth shredder.
They certainly wouldn't send them to placed sure to be filled with violent thugs who are only there because of the same coercion, sometimes even being bussed far out of their  neighborhood in social blending experiments that always end the same....badly.

A wise parent might also know that there MUST be a way to provide a high quality education in  far less than the 16+ years the state seeks to keep these kids in their indoctrination prisons.
But that is the point, to break the wonder of youth and replace it with unwavering faith in the state. To stifle individual creativity and replace it with collective conformity.

And of course to do the service to labor groups by keeping them out of the work force as long  as possible lest the machinations of these groups be more easily seen for what they are,  favoring some workers at the expense of all others. And the service of a tax subsidized screening system for the corporate machine leaves that much more for executive bonuses.
The same old corporatist MO....privatize gains and socialize losses, or expenses.


So all of this "public service" created by the use of violence to throw together all types of incompatible personalities and attempt to enforce a uniformity on them causes all kinds of social problems. Some take it well but others become outright sociopathic, as we see in events like schoolhouse violence, social network harassment, even gang stalking....organized psychic attacks.

It all makes good practice and transfers right over to corporate life though.


So, what's a bigger problem, the occasional blowback acts of desperate violence like this or the evil system that created the insanity in the first place? What should you fix, the symptoms or the cause? There are a thousand hacking at the branches of evil for every one hacking at the root.

I say more guns for the people and MUCH less of the peculiar type of "goods" produced by the lying, cheating, scheming parasitic class of humans that claim to create and maintain society while destroying it. That claim to be needed for the development of youth while mutating them into twisted zombie slaves. That have fooled so many into actually believing they are doing good, even to the point of fooling themselves.

The gun didn't kill those kids, the assbags who think they are good enough to engineer society did.
If the kid, or anyone else, was desperate enough and didn't have a gun he might very well have found something even more destructive. That's what humans do, they find a way.


A day when the sleep is out of the people's eyes, a well armed people, is coming and these "leaders" have a problem coming at them fast. They earned it too.

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: novocaine on February 28, 2012, 10:24 pm
A gun did kill those kids because as the rest of the world sees it...Americans have always settled things with a gun and I agree bp, even if there wasn't any guns that kid would have beat the other one to death with a stick.

Thats a fact. Americans are a violent beast.  The worst the world has ever seen. No other nation, tribe or empire has accomplished domination like America. You dont get there by democracy.. you get there by killing shit.

The right to bear arms is ingrained into your very dna and its fucking sad imo.
"You can get much further with a kind word and a gun than you can with a kind word alone." Al Capone

I dont bear arms and I know the guy sitting next to me doesn't bear arms so with guns out of the equation, kind words and negotiation works 98% of the time imo and the stick the rest of the time.

@bp Don't you guys have home schooling over there? Its a legitimate form of education for parents who feel they will do a better job. So most of your argument is mute. No prison schools or violent governments with guns to parents heads ::)

oh yeah violent and corrupt governments...
"A day when the sleep is out of the people's eyes, a well armed people, is coming and these "leaders" have a problem coming at them fast. They earned it too."

LMAO ...think about that real hard for a minute. Worst case scenario, 9/10 the armed forces always stage a coup. The other 1/10 you get a small annoying militia group (rednecks with guns cus they can)failing to start a revolution.
Guns aint gonna save you fuckers.. its too late. US is going down the way of the roman empire...from within. Family breakdown, financial crisis and fuckers shooting each other.


This is all coming from a small minded individual of course
I am not sure I like this coke stuff :( I had a bender last night and the comedown is a fucking bitch. It makes me a bigger arsehole than what I usually am ;)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on February 28, 2012, 10:31 pm
this dude molested a child and got a 6 year sentence

http://myfox8.com/2012/02/25/former-pastor-sentenced-for-child-molestation/

Actually I don't quite think that was too few, the case is from early 90's by 2 guys that were TEENS, not CHILD, at such time. Lately the press is pushing to make "molestation" the "society devil". Societies seams to have a weird need to have "devils"; before WW2 it was the Jews, by the 60's the gays, by 70's the junkies, 80~90's the dealers, 2000's the terrorists, mid-2000's onwards the "molesters".

Even if some psycho could well be put to fire, some others will be suffering hell in jail for nothing. The other day I almost got sick out of how pernicious brainwashing a fucking article can be. The headline was: «18 yo man abused 13 yo child»... WTF?! Since when an 18 yo BOY is a man? And since when a 13 yo TEEN is a child? Why not put «18 yo old man abused 13 yo newborn»?

blugh I agree mostly with what you say, but I just grabbed the first article I could find for someone sentenced for molestation. People are regularly given a few years to a dozen years or so for molestation charges, and you get the same sentence for drugs in even small amounts or fairly small amounts.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on February 28, 2012, 10:37 pm
..its a compromise, its a strategic move, draws attention away from 1 site giving SR a better chance of surviving...it is a very smart move.
  collectively SR and the Armoury are still fighting the common enemy, fighting from different angles.
  i am sure the same efffort in ensuring Silk Road is up and running will go into the Armoury -so whats the problem?!


Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: shadowrundeusex on February 29, 2012, 02:28 am
What hilarious hypocrisy from the anti-gun crowd!

Drugs actively MURDER people on a daily basis. Millions of people die due to DRUGS. People drink and get into vehicles and MURDER innocent people, including children. Oh, another person died from a drunk driver. Keep on selling that alcohol. It's working out great for you. Drugs like alcohol, cocaine, and meth can cause some people to become extremely violent.

Basically ANY argument you can use against guns can be used against drugs. Either people are free or they are not. I know I'm free and I refuse to be a slave to your nonsensical sense of morality. If you don't like drugs, don't use them. If you don't like guns, don't buy them. All of the facts are completely against people who are in opposition to drugs and weapons.

You don't want the population to have guns? Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and many other tyrannical dictators agree. Owning a real weapon is your last line of defense against tyrants. It's the difference between your family and you being alive or dead. It's the difference between the people of your country being free or being slaves. You didn't let the propaganda get to you about drugs. Don't let it get to you about guns.

/rant
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: human5 on February 29, 2012, 02:34 am
take it to the voting box
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Locrian on February 29, 2012, 03:20 am
You don't want the population to have guns? Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and many other tyrannical dictators agree. Owning a real weapon is your last line of defense against tyrants. It's the difference between your family and you being alive or dead. It's the difference between the people of your country being free or being slaves. You didn't let the propaganda get to you about drugs. Don't let it get to you about guns.

/rant

See, I don't get this.  Like I said before, I'm all for people having access to guns.  It's an issue of freedom and personal choice, just as much as drug use is.  That part, I absolutely get.

But I don't understand the concept of gun ownership protecting you from your government.  If the government wants something from you, or from everyone, is there really anything that your "gun collection" can do?  If the students in Tienanmen Square had been armed, would that have made the guys in the tanks think twice?  Somehow I can only see that exacerbating the situation.  And the government still comes out on top.  You literally cannot outgun the government; you can only piss it the fuck off.

Again, I have no real problem with guns.  It's just this argument in particular that baffles me.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 29, 2012, 04:01 am
Quote
But I don't understand the concept of gun ownership protecting you from your government.  If the government wants something from you, or from everyone, is there really anything that your "gun collection" can do?  If the students in Tienanmen Square had been armed, would that have made the guys in the tanks think twice?  Somehow I can only see that exacerbating the situation.  And the government still comes out on top.  You literally cannot outgun the government; you can only piss it the fuck off.

If we had a situation like the American Revolution, were most the whole country including a large portion of the military were opposed and near EVERY single person was armed, then YES, you could beat them. They may have cruise missiles, but they arnt going to blow up New York to fight the entire populace.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: thetruth20 on February 29, 2012, 04:14 am
I do love the irony of the socialist-leaning ppl on SR who don't quite get individual freedom enough to appreciate firearms, but seem to thoroughly enjoy the drugs SR makes available via the free market (gasp! capitalism!). If only they could put it down long enough to read more Rothbard, yknow?  :P
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Locrian on February 29, 2012, 04:20 am
Quote
But I don't understand the concept of gun ownership protecting you from your government.  If the government wants something from you, or from everyone, is there really anything that your "gun collection" can do?  If the students in Tienanmen Square had been armed, would that have made the guys in the tanks think twice?  Somehow I can only see that exacerbating the situation.  And the government still comes out on top.  You literally cannot outgun the government; you can only piss it the fuck off.

If we had a situation like the American Revolution, were most the whole country including a large portion of the military were opposed and near EVERY single person was armed, then YES, you could beat them. They may have cruise missiles, but they arnt going to blow up New York to fight the entire populace.

In the American Revolution, the American colonists had wide access to weapons that were at least comparable to the ones the British soldiers had.  That's just not the case now.  No matter what you have stashed away in your home, you aren't a threat.  At all.  It just means they have to take extra care with you.  You might take out one, two, or a handful of people, but you will go down.

And supposing that the entire populace could be armed is a little absurd; that wasn't the case in the American Revolution which you mentioned.  In fact the population was pretty divided in that conflict, and I think that's likely to be the case in most revolutions/revolts/whatevers.  There will always be a group of people who either benefit from the status quo, identify with the ones in power, or are just too scared to fight.  An entire population will never lash out and go guerilla.

Would they blow up New York?  I think that's an exaggeration on your part (blowing up the city wouldn't be necessary, so please don't imply that it would), but it's hard to say what anyone would do when backed into a corner.  Personally, I wouldn't put it past them.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: gimlet12 on February 29, 2012, 05:19 am
I think you underestimate the abilities of an insurgency with small arms. It took the US 10 years to call it quits in Iraq. These Iraqi's killed several thousand american soldiers and wounded many more. I think that is a prime example of what a armed population can do against a military. I have seen first hand what a guy that cannot read can do with a bolt action hunting rifle against trained troops. So the idea that small arms are ineffective against the government is ridiculous. BTW every iraqi houshold can have 1 fully automatic AK47.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Locrian on February 29, 2012, 05:59 am
Several thousand soldiers killed, out of how many?  And do you really think they've "called it quits" over there?  That's hardly a cut-and-dry example to support a point.

Not to mention the logistics of deploying armed forces halfway around the world to oppress a foreign nation is entirely different than doing it in your own backyard, where you can mobilize any given number of forces to any point in no time flat.  It's just not comparable.  Not to mention you would likely have a decent percentage of the population supporting the actions of the government against "traitors."
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: rise_against on February 29, 2012, 07:11 pm
saw a bumper sticker recently that said "If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"

yea all it takes is one idiot to screw it up for the rest of us, but if you've figured out bitcoins and tor and the rest of what it takes to get onto this site, then you are probably a person with enough common sense when owning a firearm.  also its a constitutional right to bear arms.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: ianfleming on February 29, 2012, 08:19 pm
Quote
saw a bumper sticker recently that said "If guns kill people, do pencils misspell words?"
I've always loved
"If guns cause crime, then mine's defective"
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 01, 2012, 12:06 am
..do pens kill people then...happens every time a politician picks one up..

Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 01, 2012, 02:36 am
Me = Read this discussion to see how quickly the Hitler argument was brought up. Page two. Right on.


In all seriousness, though, does anyone remember Joe Pesci's character in ... Goodfellas? Casino? ... Same character .... Scratch that - does anyone remember when Joe Pesci himself said that if you come at him with fists, hes gonna come back with a bat, and then if you come at him with a knife he's gonna come back with a gun, and if you come at him with a gun, you'd better kill him cus blah blah blah blah? That. And especially That at all the people who are talking about "I got robbed"

Oh yeah, people who got robbed? Or beaten? Or whatever? Oh yeah? Would you have felt any better if you KILLED SOMEONE? *REALLY*? Is that how you intend to deal with this issue?

No.

I'll eventually create me an account at the armory but I have no intention of buying anything more than the $9 pepper spray on Ebay that I've bought for several girl friends / girlfriends of mine. Or maybe one of those $16 retractable batons like Linus had on Lost. Because really would you rather give up all the cash you have on you or kill a man? Some of you will say RAWR KILL!! but ... think about that. You ridiculous subhuman - you would not. Or you should not. I don't think it's Holier Than Thou moralizing to say human life is worth more than the cash you have on you, whatever it is. And yes I've been through shit like this myself and yes I can totally understand the "HOW I COULD JUST KILL A MAN" sentiment, but I've also looked that shit right between the eyes and even I couldn't act on it, as much of a cold-hearted filthy nihilistic solipsist that I am. . . . I'm so calloused I even hate you. And bunnies. And ... I don't know, blankets?

It's *SO EASY* to pull a trigger.

But this is all off-topic to a certain extent because this isn't a debate about whether the people should be armed or not. It's about the Armory itself - even OP got off his own topic, I think. FWIW, I agree that the Armory is a bad idea for a reason that's been thrown around quite a bit - it's going to draw attention. The thing that scares me the most about the armory right now, without even logging in? The login page! It's the same as Silk Road's and it's accessible to anybody who isn't too stupid to install Tor. We like to toot our own horns and jerk each other off a lot but, c'mon, really, how hard is it to install Tor? I give it ... none. None stars. Out of ten.

And then knowing a bit more about it, it runs on the same software and everything as Silk Road - it is Silk Road for weapons. That is a terrible idea. See the thing people seem to lose sight of is something I've pointed out here before - THE GOVERNMENT DOESN'T GIVE A SHIT THAT YOU BOUGHT A GRAM OF WEED. In fact, stretch that out - the government doesn't give a shit that you bought really any drug. If they happen to catch you, that ... is... unfortunate, but they're not Looking For You. They may be looking for the vendors, okay, whatever, we can talk all night about that but fact is that for the time being Silk Road is a pretty safe way to get your drugs because you aren't fucking Scarface. Are there people using Silk Road to buy like 60kg of blow or some shit? Those people would get caught with or without the Road. . .

HOWEVER! "They" *DO* care about illegal arms dealing. Again the fact is that (as has been said previously) recreational drug use is an all but victimless crime, but arms dealing? There is nothing good about that! It's not a debate about who can have which guns. In the US, it's very easy to get a gun. I'm just reminded of Walter in The Big Lebowski: "I can get you a toe . . . " - you can get a gun! Easily!

But that isn't really what SR is about, is it? No, SR is about getting illegal guns, and you are kidding yourself if you think that a huge chunk of that business isn't going to be in the US.

You are also kidding yourself if you think that's all for "self-defense" - HORSE SHIT. An untraceable illegal massively powerful weapon is used for self defense? "Protection from what, ze Germans??"

So, uhm... No. Violence begets violence. And that's really the way it's been all over the world as far back as you want to go. There was an argument about the ridiculously armed Swiss population given by someone here (95+ percent, really? Citation?) and their lower crime rate - that only goes to illustrate the underlying point, if anything at all. Specifically, Mutually Assured Destruction. Of course I'm not going to try to rob you if you're holding a machine gun. Even if I'm holding one. Because, really, what am I going to take from you? Even if you didn't have a machine gun and I did, I'm not going to be robbing you for the pathetic 2,000 Euro you have! If I were using MACHINE GUNS for my strong-arm robbery, I'd have much bigger fish to fry wouldn't I? My gun cost more than your life!


There also may be a spurious relationship going on there. Think of ice cream sales and murder. They are positively correlated with like r > 0.8 (so very very very strongly correlated). Is that because more ice cream sold means more people get killed? Or because murderers kill people then eat ice cream?

Well, no, it's because the summer heat creates a disproportional gain in both statistics. It's a very simplistic example but it's used in social statistics classes because we know what the "x factor" is (heat).

Applied to a more generalized concept, it's not always so clear cut. But as far as spurious relationships go (much like obscenity, for you Supreme Court law geeks out there - I KNOW YOU'RE WATCHING:-D) -  I Know It When I See It. And in comparing the percentage of armed Swissfolk (Switzerlandians?) vs. the Swiss crime rate . . . . . . You are missing something. You have to be.

Because, really, come on, c'mon, seriously, really, REALLY? The argument is that More Guns - > Less Violence? That is patently absurd.

Maybe it's because the Swiss aren't crazy violent jingoistic belligerent xenophobic sociopaths? No offense to us Americans (please don't shoot me) ! Or something ?

This may seem like it's beside the point but it's really not.

The Chorus: "This is my favorite part - this is where he ties it all together!"

The bottom line is that You Can't Have It Both Ways. How are you going to use any of this to justify the essential premise that "Silk Road and it's founders and us - we all stand for the basic rights of human beings! Except not to have That....." The points brought up about Platonic philosophy didn't go far enough, even though I thought the "tyranny of the few" was Hobbes's thing (I'd look it up but ........ llaaazzzzzyyyyyyy....). The fact is that if your revolution is to make drugs readily available to anyone but restrict the purchasing of Lollipops, you are an anti-lollipop fascist instead of an anti-drug pigdog, if you catch my drift.

My drift: you are either for Freedom or you're in the way. And if you're in the way you are only going to get pissed off because guess what? The armory is here. So if you really believe that arming yourself like the Swiss is the best idea and that you'd be able to take a person's life and feel ok about it afterward (lol) then uh......... Sign up.  And buy a giant gun. To protect yourself. Against all those gun-toting mental cases.


Seriously though? That's how you feel, hypothetical You-person?

WELL MAYBE YOU SHOULD TELL THAT TO RAINMAN CUS HE PRACTICALLY BANKRUPTED A CASINO AND HE WAS A RUH-TARD.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: novocaine on March 01, 2012, 10:36 am
RIGHT ON!!! ;)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 01, 2012, 01:31 pm
- synonymous with a shopping mall, storeA used to sell everything some employees decide they would open their own shop on the same
  floor selling hardware they have always sold, storeA decided it would be best to specialise and not try sell everything..storeB is nearby is
  easy to find with the shop name in big neon letters...
zzzzzzzzzz



 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on March 01, 2012, 03:26 pm
Several thousand soldiers killed, out of how many?  And do you really think they've "called it quits" over there?  That's hardly a cut-and-dry example to support a point.

Not to mention the logistics of deploying armed forces halfway around the world to oppress a foreign nation is entirely different than doing it in your own backyard, where you can mobilize any given number of forces to any point in no time flat.  It's just not comparable.  Not to mention you would likely have a decent percentage of the population supporting the actions of the government against "traitors."

But in Iraq they can drop bombs and such, but if they start bombing American cities to fight an American insurgency they are just going to get more Americans joining the insurgency, not to mention they are really just dropping bombs on themselves. If USA drops a nuke on new york city to fight the insurgents there, then I guess the insurgents just managed to nuke NYC.

An American insurgency has a few advantages. For one, they can not really be targeted with heavy weapons. For two, they would most likely try their best to remain anonymous, making targeting difficult. Not to mention they would not be very geographically concentrated, making heavy weapons ineffective even if they could be used without being counter productive. I agree that small arms will not be the most effective though, I think anonymous mini-UAVs, booby traps and anonymously delivered packet bombs would be much more effective.

I still say if the police can have guns we should be able to have guns though. Although using an anonymously placed pre-positioned gun on a turret that can be remotely aimed and fired from behind the Tor network would probably be more effective than keeping it on you yourself ;).
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: czxtvr on March 01, 2012, 04:49 pm
Well to each it's own, citizens have the right to bear arms. Especially since the government isn't doing much to protect us. Most crimes and gun purchases are committed on the streets. But the govt. seem to go out of it's way to prevent law abiding citizens from making gun purchases, while the streets are being flooded with illegal gun purchases by criminals.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: johnwholesome on March 01, 2012, 07:20 pm
I'm ordering whatever jpisbetterthanme had before he wrote his post lol

brilliant....
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: noriega on March 01, 2012, 09:42 pm
dont think the armory is such a good idea, its gonna attract alot of more unwanted attention of LE..
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 02, 2012, 03:02 am
I'm ordering whatever jpisbetterthanme had before he wrote his post lol

brilliant....



. . . . . Trust me you don't want none of that; some people don't even realize but This Shit Goes On All Day ;-)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: masteron on March 04, 2012, 06:26 am
I'm a very big gun supporter being a libertarian. However, my worry is with the longevity of SR. IMO its important to protect SR by avoiding the attention the armory might receive. Law enforcement would be rabid if a school shooting weapon were bought at SR. There's always ways around even a perfect scheme. That lady that had the truecrypt volume decrypted even after she refused to cough up the password... granted they got the password from a co-defendant, but every system has its vulnerabilities. I'd just hate to lose what we have because one person does something stupid like shooting a bunch of people. As a gun owner myself, i fear a new weapons ban every time I hear of a mass shooting. Its just the knee jerk reaction of people to make bad things stop happening
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: radium1911 on March 04, 2012, 07:28 am
Quote
I used to be pretty strongly for gun control, when I was younger.  I think it was more a function of the gun nuts I knew at that time, rather than of my age.  The argument I always seemed to hear was that people needed to be protected from the government.  That's why the second amendment was included, after all.  But if anyone thinks they're going to outgun the government with whatever rinky-dink little bullshit collection of rifles and handguns they have in their home, they are severely delusional and probably shouldn't have the weapons to begin with.  Just for the safety of anyone around them. :P  So yeah, dealing with idiots like that really colored my opinions on the issue for a long time.

I don't think anyone disputes that the govt can easily outgun individuals. If it's one person's Remington 870 vs fucking Delta Force, then yeah, that person is fucked. But that's not the point. An armed society is extremely difficult to oppress and keep down for long.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: CaptnFusion on March 04, 2012, 07:36 am
I have a few ideas on matter.
1- If I had the money and found a seller with a good reputation I would by a gun. I do drug deals in person sometimes and a gun makes you feel much more comfortable. Why not get one legally? Well it traces right back to yours truly then.
2- If a person want's to kill people, they don't need a gun, or a website to do so.
3- There's this common idea on here that we have the freedom to do what we wish with our bodies. Well what about suicide?
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 04, 2012, 03:49 pm

2- If a person want's to kill people, they don't need a gun, or a website to do so.


+50 ....

But -49 because I don't need a car to get from Mexico to Canada, either. It just makes it a whole lot easier.

So still +1. :)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: rise_against on March 04, 2012, 08:05 pm
i wonder how things would have turned out if every "Occupy Wall St." protester was armed during the occupations.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Pills4thrills on March 04, 2012, 08:10 pm
I think the Armory is a bad idea because now you are opening the doors for the Fed's to put anti-terrorist money towards finding us, not just anti-drug money. It's a bad idea, and it should be closed. I am grateful they at least segregated the 2
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: rise_against on March 04, 2012, 08:29 pm
i'm glad i don't pay taxes.  none of my taxdollars will be used to shut SR down.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Barddeep on March 05, 2012, 10:09 pm
I'm a very big gun supporter being a libertarian. However, my worry is with the longevity of SR. IMO its important to protect SR by avoiding the attention the armory might receive. Law enforcement would be rabid if a school shooting weapon were bought at SR. There's always ways around even a perfect scheme. That lady that had the truecrypt volume decrypted even after she refused to cough up the password... granted they got the password from a co-defendant, but every system has its vulnerabilities. I'd just hate to lose what we have because one person does something stupid like shooting a bunch of people. As a gun owner myself, i fear a new weapons ban every time I hear of a mass shooting. Its just the knee jerk reaction of people to make bad things stop happening
In my opinion the best way to circumvent that is to make a rule in The Armory which allows selling weapons only to countries where there are unfair gun laws or other restrictions, not to the USA where it has a higher risk of being used in a crime, since it's easy to get weapons. Additionally, it makes it less likely when vendors sell to many different countries than in the US. Americans can get weapons fairly easily, Europeans can't, and will pay a premium for the service.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: aliceinbrains on March 05, 2012, 10:24 pm
I completely agree with your second point, and I completely disagree with your first.  The analogy to CP is completely unwarranted.  Just because I own a gun doesn't mean I want to use it for any purpose other than recreation or self defense.   You're argument here is in fact stating that SR should not allow cameras because they are a leading cause of CP.  If developed nations had no cameras or camcorders then there would be no CP. 

If SR was allowing hitmen to make contracts on people then that would be the analogous to CP but they are simply making a product available.

Secondly, developed countries aren't committing tyranny today?  What do you call one million people in prison for putting a substance in their bodies?  The NDAA in the United States allows for imprisonment without trial and we shouldn't be worried of our governments ever becoming tyrannical.  Do you think anybody expects their nation to become tyrannical before it happens?   No one knows what can happen in the future but we should be prepared for the worst.

Overall though, I agree with you.  It is too risky with this anti-terrorism movement going on to have a weapons selling site. 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 05, 2012, 11:22 pm
- i also can't see why bardeep's suggestion should be taken, where this seems to be going is a single person will eventually decide for you whether
   you will have access to that firearm or not -which is back to the situation we are today, and is probably not in line with the goals DPR had for us.
   I am not speaking for DPR nor the armoury admins but thats how i interpret the announcements we all read...?!

- the suggestion has "good intention" but it assumes everyone is safe 'n sound, ie "i have no issues and i look around me and i don't need the item
  therefore nobody within the demographic i define would need to purchase a weapon thru the Armoury.."

- surely the point here is CHOICE?!


Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: RickyRango on March 06, 2012, 01:51 am
As a weapons dealer, let me add my $0.02.

Preservation of self is the basis of all human rights.  Nobody questions why the lion attacks the antelope or why the antelope evades capture.  The two are simply competing for survival, which scientifically is called natural selection.  Each organism fights for its own survival, including humans, and owning weapons is a tool for survival, even in the 1st world.  When a man buys a gun and keeps it at home for self-defense, there is no victim involved.  He is simply increasing his odds of surviving an attack.

CP on the other hand involves a victim, the child involved.  Because one party is being victimized, we do not tolerate it.

Anyway that's all I got.  This debate has been rehashed so many times it's just silly. 
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 06, 2012, 04:19 am
As a weapons dealer, let me add my $0.02.

Preservation of self is the basis of all human rights.  Nobody questions why the lion attacks the antelope or why the antelope evades capture.  The two are simply competing for survival, which scientifically is called natural selection.  Each organism fights for its own survival, including humans, and owning weapons is a tool for survival, even in the 1st world.  When a man buys a gun and keeps it at home for self-defense, there is no victim involved.  He is simply increasing his odds of surviving an attack.

CP on the other hand involves a victim, the child involved.  Because one party is being victimized, we do not tolerate it.

Anyway that's all I got.  This debate has been rehashed so many times it's just silly.



.... @ the first part of this argument, Holy Butt (tm) ..... As a connoisseur of Truth I am nearly vomiting at the leaps you took . . . . . . but . . .

@ the last sentence . . . Agree. And that's why the armory was created.  . But you know as well as I that this argument will go on forever, just the same as the argument for/against armaments has gone on forever.

You and I both also know that in the end the armory will stand regardless because our fearless leader's take on Libertarianism includes provisions for not initiating violence but also for an openly-disdainful lack of willingness to defend the pacifistic citizens of the world (just read the source material in his sig:)). Whether that is agreeable or not is debatable, but the point is that freedom (and/or profiteering) will steamroll opposition every time. Especially in this case.

So while I might personally take issue with comparisons drawn between the Armory and CP (or anything else, really, since it's all just some level of comparing apples and oranges), the point is that it's all wasted breath. Buyers and sellers will come together in a Market any time there is a facilitator, and there are facilitators here.

Let's just all agree to keep in mind the main tenet of that Libertarianism - that violence is not the preferred course of action, nor should it ever be initiated, ever, without exception, by us Peaceful Pirates, eh?


... In short, let our Jolly Rogers wave a skull and crossbones, not a skull and crossed-swords!


Yarr.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on March 06, 2012, 10:27 am
I completely agree with your second point, and I completely disagree with your first.  The analogy to CP is completely unwarranted.  Just because I own a gun doesn't mean I want to use it for any purpose other than recreation or self defense.   You're argument here is in fact stating that SR should not allow cameras because they are a leading cause of CP.  If developed nations had no cameras or camcorders then there would be no CP. 

If SR was allowing hitmen to make contracts on people then that would be the analogous to CP but they are simply making a product available.

The analogy between CP and hiring a hitman is absurd.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 06, 2012, 04:40 pm
The analogy between CP and hiring a hitman is absurd.

Why? I think on its surface at face value it may sound absurd but within the confines of the argument it's a salient example of the point the poster was trying to make. Maybe that's just me:)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on March 06, 2012, 06:34 pm
Sites that simply host CP are simply making a product available to people who are simply obtaining a product. If that product leads to people molesting kids, or if people molest kids and host the images on the site, that is a seperate issue. The same thing is true for weapons. Hosting a weapons site is simply making products available, if people use those products to murder people, or get rid of the tools they used for murder via that site, it is a different issue.


Producing CP is almost equal to hiring a hitman though. But I would much rather be molested than have a hit out on me. I guess I understand what the poster was saying, but to equate all of CP with intentionally getting a person murdered is absurd, and it is even a stretch to say that CP production is as bad as murder.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 06, 2012, 07:06 pm
But I would much rather be molested than have a hit out on me.

I think this touches on the point here - that's a matter of opinion. I may or may not agree with you, but it's still a debatable point. And when you get into enforcing something that is essentially an opinion based on individual morality, you run contrary to what SR is all about.

It's a nuanced (and admittedly nitpicky) point, but it's different from "if you don't like it don't go to the site."
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kmfkewm on March 06, 2012, 08:10 pm
Well it is just as much a matter of opinion that CP and hitmen are morally equal. But I take this thread off topic so will refrain :P.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: jpisbetterthanme on March 06, 2012, 08:33 pm
Well it is just as much a matter of opinion that CP and hitmen are morally equal. But I take this thread off topic so will refrain :P.


Exactly! And Libertarians are all but infamous for their moral relativism. Welcome to our new world :-D

Also, I think it's awesome that I have three tabs open responding to just you; you're fun to spar with :)
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: Rush Limbo on March 07, 2012, 08:53 pm
The idea that guns are evil tools of destruction really bothers me.

My guns never hurt anyone... I have dozens of guns and I will never harm anyone that isn't attempting to harm me.

I have been robbed at gun point, I have been stabbed, and I have been jumped by a gang of "troubled youth" for being the wrong color. I will not be a victim again, and I strongly support an individual's right to self defense. Some people have drug felonies on their records. Drug felony = no legal guns for you. I believe SR is doing the right thing by allowing people easy access to self defense tools. Yea, maybe someone will buy a gun off of SR and shoot innocent people... This is the risk we take in a free society. I am willing to give up a little bit of perceived safety in order to maintain my personal liberty.

Bravo!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!

Your guns and my guns must be related! Mine never hurt anyone who didn't need to be hurt :-) In fact my H&K P2000 .40 S&W saved my wife and me from being robbed, and my wife from being raped.

Unrestricted access to guns for all! Give me liberty or give me death!
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: TravellingWithoutMoving on March 08, 2012, 12:48 am
CP
- children shouldn't be abused for our pleasure, they ought to be allowed to grow and determine their own destiny.
  don't have kids if you can't afford them nor force them to resort to CP to survive.
  once the psychological damage has been done at a young age problems grow into bigger issues and in most cases are not repairable.
  once your childhood is gone its gone.

Hitman
- should be mature enough to make their own decisions in life.
  even a hitman should have a code to live by and should be aware why he does what he does.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: kidx on March 08, 2012, 03:21 pm
You're right, selling guns on silkroad is totally bad, but selling crack, crystal methamphetamines, and heroin is perfectly fine.

C'mon, man. How are you gonna discriminate against certain illegal activities but not others?
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: mugwump on March 08, 2012, 03:28 pm
I'm shocked when I see comparisons between drugs and guns.
Title: Re: Why The Armory Is A Bad Idea
Post by: KnoxHarrington on March 08, 2012, 07:44 pm
DO YOU LOVE YOUR GUNS ?


GOD ?


THE GOVERNMENT ?