Silk Road forums
Discussion => Philosophy, Economics and Justice => Topic started by: UltimateSolution on October 29, 2012, 02:39 pm
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I'm surprised there wasn't already a thread on this.
For those of you that don't know, The Zeitgeist Movement is a global sustainability activist group based on the Zeitgeist film series created by Peter Joseph.
I could go on in great detail what it is about but there's no point. You can watch all three films for free on youtube and I urge everyone on here to do so. The ideas seem crazy at first, I'll even admit myself that the first time someone told me about these ideas I dismissed it as crazy conspiracy tinfoil-hat-stuff. But then I actually watched it with an open mind (and some weed.. weed helps) and a lot of the stuff makes sense.
If you haven't already done so then watch them! I'm sure the majority of people here are freethinkers and anti establishment so it should appeal to most of you.
Let me know what you think and if you want to discuss or debate any aspect of the movement or have any questions do it in this thread!
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they make sense to a point but then they go on an hour tin foil tangent on each movie. i cant stand these window of truth stories like that other one Thrive. This is the type of extremist dribble that rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves. It's nice that they get people talking, but its a lot of agenda based propaganda.
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they make sense to a point but then they go on an hour tin foil tangent on each movie. i cant stand these window of truth stories like that other one Thrive. This is the type of extremist dribble that rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves. It's nice that they get people talking, but its a lot of agenda based propaganda.
Have you seen all three movies? Care to give me an example so I can attempt to meet your criticism? :)
I disagree with "rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves." unless I misunderstand what you're saying. Doesn't the whole movement encourage people to actually question things and think for themselves instead of blindly believing everything politicians, bankers and the media says? I agree that some of the points go a bit far (especially the first movie, but let's ignore the first movie because it's not really that relevant to the movement) but some of the things are pretty scary and make a lot of sense.
I've always approached it with an open mind and after watching all three movies and reading + listening to all sorts of blogs, videos, podcast, interviews, talks, debates. I have to say that I haven't really encountered ANYONE that presents any good solid arguments against TZM, if you know of any please point me in the right direction.
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Decent movies to wake up too - I remember watching the first one on my travels in a hostel and a bunch of people from different countries sat down and watched it with me ... we discussed it after and no one seemed to have known that much about what really did happen on 9/11 and how central banking truly works before hand... Inspired me to learn about this world in a different light, as I had realized that most of what I had been told was an illusion...and I had believed it..
-- I haven't really followed TZM after watching the 3rd film...
Can you tell me if they ever talk about how to improve our world?
To me permaculture, community farming and spreading knowledge is key. Would be great if the USA was allowed to grow industrial hemp... it has sooo many uses...
But there are still too many people who do not care... apathy runs wild in this world.
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Decent movies to wake up too - I remember watching the first one on my travels in a hostel and a bunch of people from different countries sat down and watched it with me ... we discussed it after and no one seemed to have known that much about what really did happen on 9/11 and how central banking truly works before hand... Inspired me to learn about this world in a different light, as I had realized that most of what I had been told was an illusion...and I had believed it..
-- I haven't really followed TZM after watching the 3rd film...
Can you tell me if they ever talk about how to improve our world?
To me permaculture, community farming and spreading knowledge is key. Would be great if the USA was allowed to grow industrial hemp... it has sooo many uses...
But there are still too many people who do not care... apathy runs wild in this world.
The whole point of the movement is to 'improve our world'. At the moment though the whole movement is just focusing on educating people, if you watched the second and third movie you might remember The Venus Project? Even though they are, disappointingly, no longer collaborating (there was a dispute between them) the movement uses the ideas and principles of the venus project which you can read more about on their website. The key thing that they both advocate is a 'Resource Based Economy'. In very simple terms, well actually I'm just going to go ahead and link this: http://www.thevenusproject.com/en/the-venus-project/resource-based-economy It explains it a lot better than I can. The video is definitely worth watching, it explains it perfectly.
Local hydroponic farming is actually one of they key points. It's crazy how you walk into a supermarket today and you have fruit and vegetables that have been shipped from all over the world, it's extremely inefficient and a waste of energy. In this monetary system we live in it's not about efficiency and productivity, it's about making profits. People think that companies will always find the most efficient way of doing things and that a completely free market would be the most efficient (I actually used to think this as well) but then you watch the movies and read about it it actually isn't.
You're right that there are a lot of people that care, it's so sad when I try to explain these things to people and they just dismiss it at tinfoil hat conspiracy theories. I think however that the more people get involved and the more momentum it builds the greater the chance that these people will change their mind. If you agree with what it advocates then all you need to do is spread the word (like I'm doing here) it really is that simple. I think there will come a time when the people who were against this will say "You know what, this actually makes sense" and they'll hate themselves for not seeing it sooner. It's only a matter of time. :)
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None of the films talk about what industrial cannabis and medicinal cannabis can do for our society...
It should have been a stepping stone towards something like the venus project...
I am not sure if I enjoy the layout of it.. but cities in the sea, being sustainable and resource based economy are definitely awesome ideas.
A lot of truth movements are just pretend.. maybe I'll check out their site and see what kind of knowledge they are spreading =)
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None of the films talk about what industrial cannabis and medicinal cannabis can do for our society...
It should have been a stepping stone towards something like the venus project...
I am not sure if I enjoy the layout of it.. but cities in the sea, being sustainable and resource based economy are definitely awesome ideas.
A lot of truth movements are just pretend.. maybe I'll check out their site and see what kind of knowledge they are spreading =)
Excellent! By the way, both movements would allow people to do drugs, if they wanted to, basically anyone should be able to do anything as long as it doesn't effect other people. I also think they don't bring this issue up because firstly there are more important issues (like the enormous debt problems, environmental problems etc.) and also because I don't think it would be 'good press'. People already have a hard time accepting these ideas and they already have negative press that "All supporters are a bunch of no life communist losers" if you start throwing cannabis into the mix it's just going to fuel them even more if you see what I mean? Let's just take one step at a time :)
By the way, both projects advocate a much better world where everyone can lead fulfilling lives, I think people will experiment with certain drugs but I actually think less people would chose to take them. I mean most of the drugs we take are to feel good temporarily that don't work in the long run, if everyone was happy there wouldn't be a demand. The only exception being Psychedelics as I think that can be good for personal development and have long term benefits. But I mean, how many happy people that live happy lives start doing heroin and meth? I'm sure it exists but generally it's people that are trying to get away from certain things. Depression, anxiety etc. And who can blame them? We live in a pretty shit world...
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A lot of truth movements are just pretend.. maybe I'll check out their site and see what kind of knowledge they are spreading =)
Architects and Engineers or 9/11 Truth is a very good movement of very educated people discussing the merit of controlled demolition in Building 7 during the 9/11 domestic attacks. Hard facts if anyone has an interest.
TZM is definitely great in theory -- If man can somehow evolve to 46 and 2 and embrace a phase shift. I think language and religion are the biggest roadblocks for Man kind.
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How do you overcome the problem of the lack of a pricing system in a resource based economy?
What if, after the survey of the planet (or whatever term is used), it is discovered that the planet only has a carrying capacity of 5 billion humans?
I agree its nice in theory, but so is 'free' healthcare.
The Venus Project/TZM espouses a star-trekian utopia. It's result would be a statist technocracy.
Just my two BC.
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zeitgiest is communism where no one has any private property
lul look at some of the debunks of it
who would build these things who would be the central ruler to distrubute these things?
who would build material somewhere down the line force would have to be applied by some authortarian
its communism imho a false utopia where no one owns anything
go look what happened to americans when they first discovered america they had communist communities where people all contributed, people would start to slack off and then nothing ever got done
zeitgeist is everything against true freedom and i believe is counterpro
watch victimlesscrimespree instead :)
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Government sucks in any form because human nature is not perfect.
Just saying
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Government sucks in any form because human nature is not perfect.
Just saying
exactly why only voluntary contracts or voluntaryism is a consistant moral stand point with the non aggression principle why the zeitgiest movement is stupid.
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Government sucks in any form because human nature is not perfect.
Just saying
exactly why only voluntary contracts or voluntaryism is a consistant moral stand point with the non aggression principle why the zeitgiest movement is stupid.
true.
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Government sucks in any form because human nature is not perfect.
Just saying
exactly why only voluntary contracts or voluntaryism is a consistant moral stand point with the non aggression principle why the zeitgiest movement is stupid.
zeitgiest is communism where no one has any private property
lul look at some of the debunks of it
who would build these things who would be the central ruler to distrubute these things?
who would build material somewhere down the line force would have to be applied by some authortarian
its communism imho a false utopia where no one owns anything
go look what happened to americans when they first discovered america they had communist communities where people all contributed, people would start to slack off and then nothing ever got done
zeitgeist is everything against true freedom and i believe is counterpro
watch victimlesscrimespree instead :)
I'm sorry but I don't understand what you're saying, I understand that your first language isn't English but try to formulate yourself in a way so that I can understand. Capital letters and punctuations also help.
Zeitgeist is in fact true freedom, I am getting tired of people calling it communism because you obviously don't know enough about the movement if you're calling it communism. The facts are that most jobs can now be automated, we only need a very small amount of people to 'volunteer' and do certain jobs and they're the sort of jobs people want to do. People don't become doctors because they want to earn money, they become doctors because they want to help people. People don't become scientists to earn money (In fact, most jobs that actually contribute the most to society are jobs with very little pay) they become scientist because they have a passion for science. The jobs that earn the most money are the jobs that actually contribute shit all to society. Things like bankers, lawyers, corporation leaders, etc.
These are facts. Jobs are becoming obsolete everyday, instead of creating new meaningless jobs within service sectors (demeaning jobs such as waiters, burger flippers and so on) which can either be automated or are completely unnecessary and serve only to increase the gap between rich and poor where the poor are slaves to the rich. A better solution is to let people be free and do what they want, if everyone had the opportunity to pursue things they are passionate about (science, engineering, design, etc.) this would increase productivity. Money is not an incentive, money only hinders creativity.
I don't understand what you mean with "no one has any private property" you don't understand the movement. Everyone gets everything they need. You will have your own house and your own things in your house. If you need a new tv you simply go and collect one that is suitable for your needs. If you want to play golf you just go to a golf course, collect your clubs at the course, play some golf then return the clubs (Why do you need to own your own set of clubs when you only use them <1% of the time. They're just sitting in your wardrobe or in your garage 99% of the time). However if you want to keep the clubs you could do that, but why would you want to drag your own clubs to the golf course every time you want to play golf when you can just use the latest high quality clubs at the course then just leave them there?
It is extremely naive to think that if everyone had what they need that people would just sit on their sofas do drugs and watch the Simpsons. If the movement really took of I would happily volunteer in any way I could to start the transition, and I know there are a lot of other people out there willing to do it. You don't want to help? That's fine. You can sit back and let other people do all the work but I think if you were to understand the great gains to all of humanity here you would be willing to help, or maybe not, I don't know you :) But hey, all it takes is for enough people to say "You know what, this thing is actually achievable, and I can help make it happen, instead of trying to find reasons for it not to work, I am going to be part of the group that is going to make it happen." It really isn't much harder than that. It's all about a change of attitude, and it begins within yourself. Not anyone else. Be part of the people that make it happen, not the people who are stopping it from happening. It's that simple. :)
I urge you to take a second look at the movement and give it a proper chance.
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Another thing.
The Zeitgeist Movement is about individual freedom, there would be no government and everyone would be willing to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
I took a quick glance at victimlesscrimespree and I agree with it. But it's just one guy doing a little project to prove a point. Where are the solutions? The Zeitgeist Movement actually offers viable and realistic solutions. I'm quite convinced that if you gave it a chance you would agree with it. The current 'Establishment' if you will is totally against TZM, that alone should be enough to encourage you to give it a chance.
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Another thing.
The Zeitgeist Movement is about individual freedom, there would be no government and everyone would be willing to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
I took a quick glance at victimlesscrimespree and I agree with it. But it's just one guy doing a little project to prove a point. Where are the solutions? The Zeitgeist Movement actually offers viable and realistic solutions. I'm quite convinced that if you gave it a chance you would agree with it. The current 'Establishment' if you will is totally against TZM, that alone should be enough to encourage you to give it a chance.
It doesn't work end of story, the world has tried it.
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Another thing.
The Zeitgeist Movement is about individual freedom, there would be no government and everyone would be willing to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
I took a quick glance at victimlesscrimespree and I agree with it. But it's just one guy doing a little project to prove a point. Where are the solutions? The Zeitgeist Movement actually offers viable and realistic solutions. I'm quite convinced that if you gave it a chance you would agree with it. The current 'Establishment' if you will is totally against TZM, that alone should be enough to encourage you to give it a chance.
It doesn't work end of story, the world has tried it.
Are you kidding me? I'm sorry but now you're just being stupid. When/where has the world tried it? (Don't dare give me an example of communism).
And also, if it doesn't work I suppose you have a better solution? I'm presuming you don't think the current system we live in is the best we can do?
How about coming with some solid arguments? You know I've tried searching for some solid arguments against this and they don't exist, the only arguments I ever encounter are "it's communism" "it just won't work". How about an argument with some substance to it?
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Another thing.
The Zeitgeist Movement is about individual freedom, there would be no government and everyone would be willing to do what they want, as long as it doesn't harm anyone else.
I took a quick glance at victimlesscrimespree and I agree with it. But it's just one guy doing a little project to prove a point. Where are the solutions? The Zeitgeist Movement actually offers viable and realistic solutions. I'm quite convinced that if you gave it a chance you would agree with it. The current 'Establishment' if you will is totally against TZM, that alone should be enough to encourage you to give it a chance.
It doesn't work end of story, the world has tried it.
Are you kidding me? I'm sorry but now you're just being stupid. When/where has the world tried it? (Don't dare give me an example of communism).
And also, if it doesn't work I suppose you have a better solution? I'm presuming you don't think the current system we live in is the best we can do?
How about coming with some solid arguments? You know I've tried searching for some solid arguments against this and they don't exist, the only arguments I ever encounter are "it's communism" "it just won't work". How about an argument with some substance to it?
Stating that in basic form it's communism and it won't work is solid enough
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I watch all three films and I mostly like the ideas presented. It would be nice to live in a world where money isn't needed and even more not to worry about going to prison due to bullshit laws. I really don't like the way things are now and so I am very open to change and like hearing new ideas from people. I don't understand people who try to defend the bullshit we have now, they must have it really good.
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they make sense to a point but then they go on an hour tin foil tangent on each movie. i cant stand these window of truth stories like that other one Thrive. This is the type of extremist dribble that rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves. It's nice that they get people talking, but its a lot of agenda based propaganda.
Tin foil tangent? Dribble? Have you seen these movies?
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Stating that in basic form it's communism and it won't work is solid enough
Communism, socialism, capitalism etc, are all just name tags, ideas to stem the flow of mass thought and action into conduits to be utilized by the ruling caste. For thousands of years the names and means have changed but the function has not.
You may enjoy this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jAdu0N1-tvU
Its sad how so many people cannot sit and absorb ideas without compartmentalizing everything and having to put things into boxes. Good ol duality :-\
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I remember watching these videos about a year ago. If I remember correctly, the first section of the first video talks about the history of banks, etc. and starts explaining the horrors of the US Federal Reserve Bank.
This made sense, but I remember somewhere it suddenly took a dive towards utter idiocy. Abolish the idea of money and private property? No thanks, bud! Absolutely insane ideas; anybody who believes we should replace all labor with computers, forget about entrepreneurship, remove wealth and credit and private property completely... should die.
Oh, and one of the movies had a section about 9/11 being an inside job.
These people are nutters.
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Evidence of US government at least knowing 9/11 was going to happen is pretty clear, and there are FBI and CIA fingerprints all over the suspects. Not all 9/11 stuff is bullshit, but a lot of it is.
But yes Zeitgeist movies are insane, about the only thing they get right is the stuff on the fed.
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I remember watching these videos about a year ago. If I remember correctly, the first section of the first video talks about the history of banks, etc. and starts explaining the horrors of the US Federal Reserve Bank.
This made sense, but I remember somewhere it suddenly took a dive towards utter idiocy. Abolish the idea of money and private property? No thanks, bud! Absolutely insane ideas; anybody who believes we should replace all labor with computers, forget about entrepreneurship, remove wealth and credit and private property completely... should die.
Oh, and one of the movies had a section about 9/11 being an inside job.
These people are nutters.
No we're not nutters, there are a lot of smart people backing these ideas.
First of all, please don't confuse Zeitgeist the Movie with The Zeitgeist Movement.
Second of all, did you actually give it a proper chance? You don't actually present any arguments against it so I can't meet them. But you have to understand the actual ideologies and concepts behind it. We are brainwashed to believe that monetary gain is what drives people to do things and without this incentive that people will just sit around and do nothing. Take a look at the world, do people that do good work for humanity get rewarded?
Have a think about some of the highest paying jobs: Lawyers, bankers, politicians etc. Are these the people that do the greatest good for the world? What about scientist? Scientists get really shitty salaries, when they complete their long education that they are forced to pay themselves, they then have to take a job straight away to pay of their debt. So they have to become a slave for some large medicine company, if they come up with something great that can help millions of people, the company owns all rights to the medicine and will get virtually all profits. Wouldn't it be better if all medicines were produces with the sole attention of being as efficiently distributed to anyone that needs it instead of a company making a profit only because they are able to hold scientists hostage by giving them a small salary they have to have in order to live a normal life and pay off their debt?
The monetary system just corrupts everything, you may understand economics binco, but you don't understand society and social problems. You can't just look at economics, you have to look at ALL aspects of society as everything is interlinked. Throughout my life I have been virtually everywhere on the political scale (Left, Center, Right, Liberal, Conservative, Anarchist, etc.) and I now realize all that is bullshit, none of it will work. The only thing that actually has any chance of working is TZM or TVP, it's actually quite simple. We have the technology, knowledge and resources to create an abundance of everything, if we could do this and distribute it to everyone, it would, in time, solve virtually all aspects of society, forever. Your free-market-anarchist-utopia would never work. By the way, what the Zeitgeist Movement proposes is, in my opinion, real freedom. No laws and no government, we don't need them. People would be willing to do whatever they want as long as it doesn't hurt other people. If you wanted to you could still trade things with other people and 'own' your own stuff, but there wouldn't be any need to, have you watched 'Zeitgeist Moving Forward'?
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Second of all, did you actually give it a proper chance? You don't actually present any arguments against it so I can't meet them. But you have to understand the actual ideologies and concepts behind it. We are brainwashed to believe that monetary gain is what drives people to do things and without this incentive that people will just sit around and do nothing. Take a look at the world, do people that do good work for humanity get rewarded?
I did give it a proper chance until it turned into nonsense. I don't need to present any arguments against it because I don't care, and there are no sane people with that ideology. If history can tell us anything, it's that socialism always fails (disastrously). This is a batshit insane version of socialism. I am a lover of capitalism, the only system which truly provides an efficient allocation of resources.
99% sure you're a troll and I can't be bothered to argue against a TZM cultist, so I bid you farewell. I decided to explore the other boards of this forum and now I have.
Please, do some reading about the failure of socialism. And then read F.A. Hayek's book, The Road To Serfdom. Hopefully it will help you.
I'm sorry. Good luck.
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I love the movies and the concept behind it all. Of course it has some flaws and loopholes but what ideas/concepts dont implentation is the test to see if you can work those out. Also I cant wait for the next movie to come out
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
Spoken like a true communist.
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The earth isn't a pool of infinite wealth that just needs divided up. Wealth needs to be CREATED through work.
Money isn't just something to spur people on as an incentive to work (you could offer me many non-money things and it would still incentivize me), it has the very very very important role of providing us with prices - prices tell us the relative cost of different goods. Without a market you can't tell me the relative worth of an apple vs a banana. Or steel vs aluminium. You cannot know which is the better use of resources, you don't know which is truly in high demand or just being pissed away, etc.
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Second of all, did you actually give it a proper chance? You don't actually present any arguments against it so I can't meet them. But you have to understand the actual ideologies and concepts behind it. We are brainwashed to believe that monetary gain is what drives people to do things and without this incentive that people will just sit around and do nothing. Take a look at the world, do people that do good work for humanity get rewarded?
I did give it a proper chance until it turned into nonsense. I don't need to present any arguments against it because I don't care, and there are no sane people with that ideology. If history can tell us anything, it's that socialism always fails (disastrously). This is a batshit insane version of socialism. I am a lover of capitalism, the only system which truly provides an efficient allocation of resources.
99% sure you're a troll and I can't be bothered to argue against a TZM cultist, so I bid you farewell. I decided to explore the other boards of this forum and now I have.
Please, do some reading about the failure of socialism. And then read F.A. Hayek's book, The Road To Serfdom. Hopefully it will help you.
I'm sorry. Good luck.
Man this posts just annoys me. What the fuck makes me a troll? I just want to tell you to go fuck yourself, that's how annoyed you make me.
The failure of Socialism? How about being born and raised in socialist European countries and having traveled I see a direct correlation to how nice a country is relative to how socialist it is. Travel to Norway, Finland or Sweden, these are pleasant countries, low crime, well educated people, homelessness is virtually non existant, free healthcare for everyone, free education for everyone, clean streets, everything is nice. Compare that to America. Lot's of crime, depression is extremely high, slums of homeless people, school shootings all the time, you have your stupid power lines in the air despite being prone to natural disasters. Even Scandinavian countries that have no natural disasters they put them under ground.
I'm getting annoyed with these backward thinking freemarket idiots. IT DOES NOT FUCKING WORK. You are narrow minded, you cling onto a very basic set of rules that you think will solve everything, they sound good in theory but in reality they are insane.
Capitalism is NOT an efficient allocation of resources. Just think about it. If I wanted to, I could get a job as a banker, get paid 100k USD a year. I live very cheaply on only 20k USD. I decide to spend the rest of my money buying barrels of oil and burning them in my garden because I find it amusing. Is this an efficient allocation of resources? Should a person's greed and misinformation allow resources to be wasted? What about the environment? Imagine all of a sudden there is dangerously low amounts of Salmon in the North Sea, who stops the overfishing? Let's say there are 10 companies fishing, five of them decide to do the right thing and stop fishing to stop the salmon dying out, the other five are now able to fish twice as much because they can cover the space of the other 5 companies, the fish are dying out at the same rate as before. The only thing that matters is the ability to obtain resources and turn it into wealth, not based on the needs of the human population, not by taking into consideration the dangerous environmental consequences. No, but simply to OBTAIN by any means necessary and DISTRIBUTE in whatever way generates the money. Instead of the fish being given to starving people in Greenland, it is flown all the way to California because that is where people pay the most for it,the fact that flying the fish there wastes extreme amounts of energy, further damaging the planet is irrelevant, because profit and the generation of money is all that matters in a monetary system.
You have to be trolling...
LEGACY, excellent post!
By the way, TZM is NOT socialism, but anyway, where are the failed examples? I'm guessing you mean soviet Russia which is a shitty example because TZM is NOT communism. Everything about TZM is fact. Look at the world for a second, how many of the actual jobs are needed? You don't need bankers, lawyers, politicians, marketing people, estate agents, sales people, I could go on and on and on and lists how 95% of all jobs that exist there is absolutely no need for. We can easily automate the essential things we need, food can be grown automatically using hydroponics (Woah well who is going to build all these machine then? Everyone would just sit at home eating potato chips and scratching their ass, right?) Or Maybe.. just maybe in a world where everyone has what they need people can spend their time doing things that actually does good things for the rest people. McDonalds claim "Yeah we are a great company, we pay 300 000 people around the world an absolute shitty salary, we make them wear a uniform, we make them work a stressful manual job that really could be fully automated and they have no future prospects". How about letting these people do what they want, give them free education to pursue science, let them create art, movies or whatever. It doesn't matter, everyone would be happy and able to do what they want. People that have relatives who died of cancer would spend their time trying to cure cancer, people who have an interest in computers would do research in technology, etc. etc. Just think for a second, there are all these pointless jobs being created that add nothing of value to society. Meaningless jobs within the service sectors (waitress, bartenders, salesmen) are not needed, they're only there so that the poor can serve the rich.
THEORETICAL SCENARIO BASED PARTLY ON TRUE ASPECTS OF MY LIFE:
If I had everything I would ever need to live a good life guaranteed I would spend a lot of my time, for free doing stuff to increase the quality life of everyone. I actually had an interest in science and I was pretty good at it, the salary for a lot of science related jobs were very low so I didn't pursue a career in it. NOT because I want to be rich but because I wanted to ensure I would always be able to maintain a comfortable lifestyle and have security for the future. But I would have a large amount of debt and I would make just enough money to get by, I wouldn't be able to save money so if I lost my job I would be screwed, I thought maybe I want a family one day but I can't have a family with no financial security. So I decided to go into economics, I found the work to be easy and I got top grades but I found what I was doing incredibly meaningless and pointless so I dropped out. Taking into consideration the current economic climate it was probably a very clever choice. I know people who have worked in the industry their whole lives with amazing references and they can't get a job, I also know people my age who chose similar career path and they can't get a job either. So here I am, a young adult without an education and without a job. If a world that TZM proposes today existed I would of had a comfortable life guaranteed, which means I would of spend parts of my time doing things I enjoy (I enjoy Snowboarding actually) but I don't want to Snowboard my whole life, and everyone knows that sitting on your ass doing nothing all day gets incredibly boring, so I would spend a lot of my time doing some sort of scientific research, maybe I have a lot of people in my family that dies of cancer so I would be willing to work on cancer research, for free. If I come up with a cure it would mean it could be used on myself, but not only that, it would save MILLIONS of lives, I don't want money, I don't even want recognition, the fact that my work would save millions of people of lives including possibly my own would be enough.
Ok sorry if my post has spelling errors and is slightly badly formulated, I tried in as many different ways to illustrate a point, the philosophy behind the ideas TZM tries to convey. I want to point out that I'm just a believer in the things they advocate so please don't take what I write here as anything 'official' about the movement, please check the website and other resources for in debt and detailed information. Having long technical debates is pointless because you can use surveys and research papers to prove virtually anything, just try to understand the philosophy behind it all. Also I'm high on various substances so excuse this post if its very rambly but I feel more passionately about this movement than I ever felt about anything in my life. I like to think of myself as smart and logical, I have many flaws I admit but in my whole life I'm not the kind of person to support a particular sport team, or obsess about a particular music group, or follow a political party intensely or anything like that. I never really take sides, I always listen to all sides of an argument, I will literally do research about pedophiles arguments on their right to have sex with children, NOTE that I do NOT in any way agree with their views, but I will listen to their views because I will give virtually EVERYTHING a chance, I then make decisions as absolutely objectively and unbiased as I can. My point is that what this movement proposes is virtually a solution to everything, the most important aspect of it is education, people have to understand the ideas and be on board, once enough people re on board then the magic will truly begin. My open mindedness and willingness to always give new things a chance means I am always ahead of my time with new things. I was on Freenet and TOR quite a while before SilkRoad existed and I knew about Bitcoins, I actually remember thinking "If I had the programming ability to do it I could start a place where people can trade drugs on here". Anyway my point is that I am convinced TZM will be the future, I see how views are changing everywhere, people questioning the materialistic consumption society, people realize the gaps between rich and poor growing (the whole 99% thing and occupy movement recently) the younger generations more liberal views with drugs, questioning everything, people are starting to realize that politicians aren't people that have some sort of special ability to run a country, they're just people with a lot of money, a lot of contacts, an ability to get people to trust them or most likely a combination of these things. I mean, how many Bush politicians are there? Are these people just coincidentally great leaders or are they maybe just the same people who look after themselves?
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Geez I really am rambling on aren't I.. anyway all I ask you to do is trust me and give the movement a chance. Don't take my word for it, go check it out and give it a chance. I can promise that virtually everyone I know that gives it a proper chance ends up liking it, it takes an initial investment of time to fully grasp it but once you do I guarantee its worth it. Given enough time, I can get almost anyone to like it. Not by manipulating facts or luring them, but just getting them to realize the philosophy behind it. It's hard though, it took me a lot of time as well, but I gave it a proper chance and look where I am now. You're probably right that a lot of the people that support the movement are crazy, that doesn't mean its crazy. I think its just because its so new and it requires such a radical new way of thinking that most people just aren't willing to do it. You kind of have to crush everything you've been taught about everything which is hard and scary but it can be done, especially if you're young. Old people will never get it, people with the attitudes like: "Oh you can't do that, that's illegal, illegal things are wrong and you shouldn't do illegal things because you get in jail" and "Oh I think the government should really do something about the drinking problem in this country" will never get it, we are brainwashed by society to conform to a certain mold, the older people are the more conformed you'll be because you're grown up with no internet and maybe even no TV. Internet has opened up a whole new world, a medium where virtually everything is possible. I have found that generally, the kind of people that check multiple sources for news, always try to gather all evidence before making any sort of statement or deciding in their views are the sort of people that support TZM. The people firmly against it are pretty much always people that were raised a certain way and have a very firm ideology they just can't let go of, they won't even give it a chance, like this guy. "I'm not even going to look at it because I don't care" - PLEASE PEOPLE DO NOT BE LIKE THIS STUPID ASSHOLE. If you dismiss something without even giving it a chance there is something fundamentally flawed with you as a person, you won't develop, you won't improve. You will stay in the same place forever. Times change and things change, we've had the same political and economical systems for CENTURIES, compare those times to today times, don't you think it's time for an update? We are using the same systems that we used during World War 2 and the days when america took slaves from Africa, we live in different times now.
WAKE THE FUCK UP. THIS IS IMPORTANT SHIT. DO IT FOR THE GREATER GOOD OF EVERYONE.
binofcone - You are a real fucking piece of shit, seriously. You just don't get it. You don't need to put prices on things this is not 1920. You don't need 50 people working in a field a whole year to create food for 100 people. We can build a machine that can be maintained by one person, or a very small group of part time volunteers that can feed an entire city. Do you understand that once this machine is built, nobody in the city needs to work, we have the machine that produces food for everyone, you get it? Now imagine this on a much larger scale, where every aspect of society is designed to create an abundance so that everyone can have access to everything they need. Drop the idea of communism, it is not communism, communism is the most stupid and illogical system there is and will never work. This is about using technology that we already have and applying it to create an abundance. There isn't infinite wealth, no. But there is enough resources on the planet so that everyone can have a comfortableness, IF we redesign the way society works. That means that no one can have a hummer, nobody would have their hummer taken away from them, it means we have to EDUCATE the person that driving a hummer is not sustainable,by driving a hummer you are using the worlds limited resources in an inefficient way.
The whole world needs to be streamlined in to one effective cooperative unit. Food NEEDS to be grown locally. We can't have food and and things shipped all over the world, why can't you see that bincofone? Why?! 'Wealth' is such a stupid term, wealth doesn't need to be created. Resources need to be harvested fromthe earth in a SUSTAINABLE manner, they then need to be distributed based on the NEEDS and the DEMANDS of people based NOT on monetary gains but ACTUAL needs. Food,shelter, water, energy, leisure, health, education,these are needs. A hummer is not a need, every time someone drives a hummer they are using 3x more energy they need, there is no real need for anyone to drive a hummer. Society creates a bunch of artificial needs that are inefficient. Nobody needs to fly a private helicopter so that they can attend a business meeting, but someone might need an helicopter if they are injured and need to get to the hospital urgently.
Example you should try and get into your thick head:
You don't need to monetize an apple or banana. There are 5000 people living in a city, you can estimate how many fruit will be needed a day, hydroponic systems automatically grow the food with very little maintenance from people (i.e no manual labour, once the machine is created it will continue growing food, it just needs to be topped up with growing nutrients). The fruit is then available in a warehouse, anyone that wants fruit goes and takes how much they want. If there is a shortage of food, there is a temporary limit placed on the amount of fruit available that day, the hydroponic machine is modified to increase the amount of fruit being grown to meet the higher demand, in the meantime fruit is either imported from a nearby city using very efficient railway systems (these are automatic, the fruit it just placed on the rail then transported to where it is needed) from a city where there is a surplus of fruit, if there is no surplus there will be some sort of substitution available.But the fruit shortage would never happen because the system would of calculated beforehand the demand that needed to be met and if there is a shortage it would be solved through substitution or by receiving a surplus from a nearby city.
Doesn't this system make perfect sense? For some reason it doesn't to you, in your world ONE person should be able to buy all the fruit available and burn it if he wants to. If someone has enough money he can outbid everyone for the fruit, he can monopolize the fruit and then sell it at extortionate profits so that he makes even more money. He ca the buy all the fertile land in the area making him the sole producer of fruit, being the sole producer of fruit he can use a low quality pesticide that is damaging to the people, but as long as he puts a disclaimer on the fruit he is not doing anything illegal. The people become sick and poor because they have no option but to eat the dangerous fruit and they have to pay extortionate prices. Someone decides to solve the problem by importing fruit from a nearby city, it works successfully at first, then the rich capitalist with all the wealth he has accumulated buys the railroad, which means nobody is able to import anything. The rich capitalists then decides to hire buy a lot of weapons, with people living in poverty, he is able to hire them at a very small price to become his soldiers, with the soldiers he has aqquired through the deprivation he created he can do whatever he wants.
Sure this is an extreme example, but this is basically how the world works today and how it would work in a "totally free market" can't you see that TZM solution is a lot better? No one entity gains anything over another, everyone works in the interest of everyone. Nobody would be forced to work, nobody would be made to do anything they didn't want to. People would just be educated enough so that the vast majority (hopefully everyone) would make the right decision) you are right that During the transition period there probably would be people doing nothing and just enjoying the work that everyone else does, but so what? You only need a certain amount of people to do a certain amount of work. A hydroponic system that supports 5000 people isn't that much more effort to run than one that supports 3000, so just create the food for anyone (because its so cheap to create anyway, just give everyone what they need, we have the technology,this is not 1920). It means that there would be no crime as everyone has what they need. So by providing everyone what they need, you are creating your own safety.
Try and understand, please. Let's use the technology and knowledge to make life easier, simpler and more effective for people. THAT is the humane and logical solution. What you want to do is to create jobs for everyone, just create meaningless jobs that serve no purpose to society. I read an interesting article about this a while ago. It was about a large factory where machines were replacing the workers and the unions or whatever were outraged they insisted that the people should be doing the jobs, not the machine. Why not let the machines do the job and keep paying the workers their salary, say that they can do what they want, tell them they can do scientific research or create art or whatever they want, that seems logical to me. They have free time to do what they want, hopefully they spend their time doing something that can help and increase the quality of life for other people YOUR solution would be that its tough luck for the workers, the company owner who hired all the machines should get all the money and the workers what should they do? Be forced to become a cleaner for the now rich factory worker? Maybe they can be his cleaner, gardener and chef. Or maybe society creates more jobs that don't actually contribute anything positive to society like bankers, traders lawyers, jobs that do NOTHING, they have no purpose apart from in this society where we're just constructing things on top of other things to try and support a system that is collapsing, look around the world. In 20 years there is going to be even less jobs, more chaos, more crime, just wait.
This is a very simple example yes, but the concept can be applied to all aspects of society.
Holy fuck this was a long post, hopefully it will make sense when I re read it tomorrow, if not then oh well, I had fun writing it. Hopefully someone will come up with a nice response, whether its supportive or against it, but it you want to argue against it please give me something of substance, even if it's just linking a book or a video that explains your points.
(Sorry if I come across as hostile, really I'm quite friendly, but when it's the human race on the line I tend to get a bit emotional ;))
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So much dribble, so little motivation to give it a meaningful reply...
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So much dribble, so little motivation to give it a meaningful reply...
I've spent the best part of a year attempting to argue against people such as yourself and its pointless, you bring the same worthless points up"It's human nature to be selfish" "We need money as an incentive" etc. So you're not going to get anything more than drug induced ramblings from me until you actually present a valid argument.
How about meeting this: http://www.theresourcebasedeconomy.com/2012/05/human-nature/
“A resource based economy won’t work because of our innate human nature”.
Implied is that our so-called human nature is greedy and competitive, thus a system based on sharing and collaboration won’t work.
Now, IS our human nature only greedy and competitive? Of course not. I think we can safely say that it is just as much generous and collaborative as it is greedy and competitive. If it were only greedy and competitive our society would have crumbled a long time ago. Human nature is not ‘this’ or ‘that’. If anything, human nature is changeable and adaptable.
Sure, we have competitiveness in us by nature, BUT, we are also just as much collaborative. Maybe even more so on a global scale. Every day all across the planet people are collaborating to get things done and to make society work. If it was only fierce competition all the time, society would grind to a halt pretty quick. We have to work together to build houses, roads and hospitals. We have to collaborate to develop new technology, fly to the moon or run a farm. We have to play together in harmony to make a rock band rock or a symphonic orchestra sound good.
Inborn Qualities
We are without doubt born with certain qualities, like different talents and personalities. Some become good singers or piano players, while others have a hard time achieving that and become maybe good doctors or farmers instead. Some have a few talents, while some have many. Of course, what we become good at also have to do with our environment and the possibilities we are given. Still, even if you are stimulated even from a fetus to become a piano player, that might not lie for you and you might end up a mathematician instead. If this is from the genes or through your souls experiences as previous incarnations (if you believe in that stuff), I don’t know. It doesn’t matter though, as my point is to show that certain things are inborn.
Please give it a read, unless you've spent your life studying genetics and psychological behavior, you have no right to make claims about what is genetic and what is not. I saw you in another thread make a lot of claims about behavior being genetics without anything to back it up.
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Please give it a read, unless you've spent your life studying genetics and psychological behavior, you have no right to make claims about what is genetic and what is not. I saw you in another thread make a lot of claims about behavior being genetics without anything to back it up.
Startpage it yourself, if you want me to back up specific claims say what exactly, but I'll start you off.
Good starting points for genetics and behaviour are the MAOA gene and the DAT1 gene. The different alleles for these genes influence social attitudes and aggression. For genetics and intelligence just look up the relevent literature - most IQ heritability estimates are about 0.70-0.85 in the US (that means genetic variability explains 70-85% of the total variance in IQ in the US). Heritability is environment dependent though - will differ from population to population as the environments vary more and more.
Beware of people who use child heritability estimates to attempt to prove points about IQ and genetics not being that intertwined - all traits are less heritable in children, it's a deceptive tactic. Children also really don't matter that much in the society, they don't wield much power.
I have studied genetics and human psychology quite a bit actually. It's not my life's work, but I consider it to be very important knowledge. Trust me, I wouldn't be making the bold claims I do if I didn't have a fair amount of certainty regarding their validity - I don't like being wrong.
You are correct about humans working together naturally in cohesive social units, but a huge geographic area comprised of millions of separated people made up of mixed racial groups is anything but cohesive. Look up Dunbar's number and you'll see where I'm coming from. Just listen to the language that page uses; "Maybe even more so on a global scale." Maybe? These people are making wild speculations not based on any evidence. They are clueless.
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
Spoken like a true communist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Spoken like a true regular indoctrinated, emotionally attached US CITIZEN. Or some other nationalist. THEY OWN YOU. Do you know that?
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ultimate solution:
Great you understand the harmonious nature of the CONCEPTS of the the zeit movement. Though, you might want to consider refraining from even using the word argument in your rants. Passion is great but you lose cred when you have the kind of signature you do. And you're just spinning wheels on people that are obviously very ingrained in the way they know life to be and their belief system in life. It's a deep emotional attachment for the most of us I would say. The main problem for the concept is those who often do really well in the money game and have much attached to their identity, their work... is severely challenged. Uncertainty requires lack of fear and often faith. Uncertainty is one of the best places to be in.
Just gotta help inspire and educate NICe my friend. Don't get riled by fools who won't have any chance of "getting it" until the rest of civilization finally goes: "Ohhhhh you treat the planet as a single living eco system and retain all the resources by simply managing them properly yeahhhhh that DOES sound good!!!"
And 911 was so fucking an inside fucking job just like every fucking war that's ever been orchestrated.... yeah ALL OF THEM. Do the research. And I talk so much shit hahahaha. Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me. I care about you you know. Yeah, all y'alls.
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
Spoken like a true communist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Spoken like a true regular indoctrinated, emotionally attached US CITIZEN. Or some other nationalist. THEY OWN YOU. Do you know that?
Communism is only bad when you give one guy all the power.
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
Spoken like a true communist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Spoken like a true regular indoctrinated, emotionally attached US CITIZEN. Or some other nationalist. THEY OWN YOU. Do you know that?
Communism is only bad when you give one guy all the power.
Communism conceptually has many great aspects. Like much of the systems. But with money you have power and with power you have competition, coercion, force, rape, murder... an emotionally incomplete society that has much fear (that's perpetuated in the system) that there's NOT ENOUGh. Guys n gals, there is so much. There is so much abundance. Just think of our technologies. But the idea is that humans are not inherently selfish and it's all learned. We do not have to compete. We do not have to hoard. We do not have to fear. We can move past this primitive notion of money. Doesn't diminish value in life. It merely changes it.
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TZM IS THE BEST IDEA YET.
To my understanding there is no hidden agenda. It's a simple.... Concept... guys. No one in TZM cares who's designs work, who's name gets on the plaque. It's a simple harmonious approach to "society" meaning... uhhh the fucking earth? We all own the resources and all things inherent to this planet.
We do not act like earthlings, humans if you will. We act like amerikans, and indians, and nationalists, and corporatists... facists... egotists, elitists, homophobes you name it. This is not true society. Unfortunately we are... indoctrinated. So wake the fuck up!
Stop living in a fear based world. Realize you cause change in all you do.
And they are working on this shit. They are building scaled down models to show how an entire metropolis sized city can automatically farm pure organic foods ALL on auto and feed an entire city. They will keep making models for the entire world to show it's possible. It's just implementing tools to create abundance that is already here on this planet. It's the people who cannot get outside a world/paradigm that involves hidden agenda and POWER.... CONTROL.... that cannot grasp us humans would act so well as a society.
Spoken like a true communist.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Spoken like a true regular indoctrinated, emotionally attached US CITIZEN. Or some other nationalist. THEY OWN YOU. Do you know that?
Communism is only bad when you give one guy all the power.
Communism conceptually has many great aspects. Like much of the systems. But with money you have power and with power you have competition, coercion, force, rape, murder... an emotionally incomplete society that has much fear (that's perpetuated in the system) that there's NOT ENOUGh. Guys n gals, there is so much. There is so much abundance. Just think of our technologies. But the idea is that humans are not inherently selfish and it's all learned. We do not have to compete. We do not have to hoard. We do not have to fear. We can move past this primitive notion of money. Doesn't diminish value in life. It merely changes it.
I agree with you so hard. We've got a huge planet and only 7 billion people. We could do so much with what we have, if we just... stopped... worrying about money. If we just did the things we have the resources to do instead of the things we "can afford"... :(
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We have to be thinking as a race. Collectively. And one where we're all the winner. A focus on the whole. We do not do that.
We believe we are not equal. We believe we can own things.
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ultimate solution:
Great you understand the harmonious nature of the CONCEPTS of the the zeit movement. Though, you might want to consider refraining from even using the word argument in your rants. Passion is great but you lose cred when you have the kind of signature you do. And you're just spinning wheels on people that are obviously very ingrained in the way they know life to be and their belief system in life. It's a deep emotional attachment for the most of us I would say. The main problem for the concept is those who often do really well in the money game and have much attached to their identity, their work... is severely challenged. Uncertainty requires lack of fear and often faith. Uncertainty is one of the best places to be in.
Just gotta help inspire and educate NICe my friend. Don't get riled by fools who won't have any chance of "getting it" until the rest of civilization finally goes: "Ohhhhh you treat the planet as a single living eco system and retain all the resources by simply managing them properly yeahhhhh that DOES sound good!!!"
And 911 was so fucking an inside fucking job just like every fucking war that's ever been orchestrated.... yeah ALL OF THEM. Do the research. And I talk so much shit hahahaha. Forgive me. Forgive me. Forgive me. I care about you you know. Yeah, all y'alls.
Yeah I know, my drug induced ramblings don't do any good, I just wish there was a way to get through to these people. I'm not even an empathic person, generally quite selfish but I gave it a chance and I got it, it makes sense. I'll refrain from badly thought out posts that just damage the message we try and advocate in the future, don't worry ;)
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I believe there is a sound connection to the effects and potential growth and life transformations that can be catalysted through chems. But having a dear dear connection with one other human being and ESPECIALLY on certain chems....
The breakthroughs of consciousness, awareness, peace, grace, presence, and TRUE PURE POTENTIAL CREATING can be ours by when we awaken to them. All is never lost. All is always still here. Still here.
XO universal masters
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Decent movies to wake up too - I remember watching the first one on my travels in a hostel and a bunch of people from different countries sat down and watched it with me ... we discussed it after and no one seemed to have known that much about what really did happen on 9/11 and how central banking truly works before hand... Inspired me to learn about this world in a different light, as I had realized that most of what I had been told was an illusion...and I had believed it..
-- I haven't really followed TZM after watching the 3rd film...
Can you tell me if they ever talk about how to improve our world?
To me permaculture, community farming and spreading knowledge is key. Would be great if the USA was allowed to grow industrial hemp... it has sooo many uses...
But there are still too many people who do not care... apathy runs wild in this world.
I recommend you listen to the Reasonable Doubts podcast where they dissect the religious claims from the first film. Short version: it's full of fabrications and (probably) outright lies.
Here's a link: http://doubtreligion.blogspot.com/2010/03/episode-63-zeitgeist-debunked.html
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Decent movies to wake up too - I remember watching the first one on my travels in a hostel and a bunch of people from different countries sat down and watched it with me ... we discussed it after and no one seemed to have known that much about what really did happen on 9/11 and how central banking truly works before hand... Inspired me to learn about this world in a different light, as I had realized that most of what I had been told was an illusion...and I had believed it..
-- I haven't really followed TZM after watching the 3rd film...
Can you tell me if they ever talk about how to improve our world?
To me permaculture, community farming and spreading knowledge is key. Would be great if the USA was allowed to grow industrial hemp... it has sooo many uses...
But there are still too many people who do not care... apathy runs wild in this world.
I recommend you listen to the Reasonable Doubts podcast where they dissect the religious claims from the first film. Short version: it's full of fabrications and (probably) outright lies.
Here's a link: http://doubtreligion.blogspot.com/2010/03/episode-63-zeitgeist-debunked.html
What? There shouldn't even be a debate about whether god exists. It is the most crazy and absurd thing ever, I can't even bear to speak with religious people because they don't have the ability to think independently and logically. I also can't stand the religious nut jobs who try to "dissect" the first part of the movie by taking a few of the things claimed as facts, proving they're wrong, and therefore the whole point of what he says becomes invalid? no. Just because Arez was actually the second daughter of the Sun God Ipreza, not the first, and just because there were in fact 32 of something instead of 30, it doesn't mean anything. The whole point is that religion was created during a time before science when things couldn't be explained. It is obsolete. Arguing about it is like arguing whether ghost exists. Can ghosts exist? Sure, but is it likely? Well no, some things are just obvious and logic. I can't see the electrical cable that connects the light switch to the light but I know its there, I have seen houses being built I know how a wire can be placed inside a wall then plastered and painted so it can't be seen, and I know the science behind electricity and conductivity. I have seen the inside of a light switch and know that it works by physically separating and joining two conductive pieces of metal, when they are separated the circuit is incomplete and no electricity is being brought to the light, once they meet the circuit is complete. Logic, science, basic knowledge, common sense based on actual learning, experimenting and experience.
Just take a look at religion, if you're brainwashed with that crap from a young age you're going to take it seriously and you're going to pass it onto your kids, that's the only reason it exist. If you just look at religion you can see its created to control people, muslims don't eat pig meat because during that time eating pig meat was dangerous due to bad storage methods. They slice of their foreskin because during those times it was hygienic. Just writing and debating about religion is time wasted that could be spend doing something actually productive to the world. Religion has no purpose whatsoever, it needs to disappear. It is obsolete.
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Bizump
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:o
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I was going to read all the posts on this topic but my weed cookie kicked in and mixed with the beer and wine I will just have to skip to my thoughts on zeitgeist and the venus project.
In short.
Zeitgeist Moving Forward is by far the best one. The 9/11 stuff is a dead end, mainly because nobody should have to think the ruling class orchestrated 9/11 to come to the conclusion that the ruling class is detrimental to us all and must be crushed. The religion stuff is something I already knew, basically, it's all bullshit. In the moving forward chapter they actually deconstruct capitalism, though they often reffer to it as a "market economy". They lose me when they promote the venus project.
The venus project is a planned economy, and to be more specific, a technocratic utopia. I would love to live in such a society, but I know it won't work, because we will still not have control of our lives. In capitalism, we are beholden to a small group of capitalists (or in the movie they refer to capitalism as the bankers, or the federal reserve, etc.), while in the venus project model we would be beholden to an even smaller group of engineers who operated these automated cities.
What we are fighting against by being part of the SR community is control. In this case, the control of access to medicines and recreational drugs. Zeitgeist points out that we should be against the control the ruling (capitalist) class has over us. Why then would the solution be to give control over to a few engineers (venus project)? The solution is that we, the people who do the work that keeps us all alive, need to be in control, and to do so we need to continue actually doing that work, not have machines controlled by a few do it. We lose control then. Private or state ownership of the resources, land, and means of production are inherently oppressive. Independet people, freely associating and owning the full product of their collective labour, united in a federation of independent communes, is the way to go and the way most pre-modern peoples lived. This is Full Communism, or Libertarian Socialism, or Anarchist/Communism.
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they make sense to a point but then they go on an hour tin foil tangent on each movie. i cant stand these window of truth stories like that other one Thrive. This is the type of extremist dribble that rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves. It's nice that they get people talking, but its a lot of agenda based propaganda.
Soo basically I got tired or reading after page two of the argue of "yes it will work this is how" and "no it's been tired and failed" either way I don't care. If this has been posted I am sorry. What my country (us) and pretty much the rest of the word is trying to do/is doing is NOT working at all. It is destroying the middle class and making us slaves to the rich.
On the topic of thrive, that is the first movie I ever watched that brought these new ideas to light and started to wake me up. There are "Free Energy Devices" that have been suppressed and destroyed by govt. (i e big oil, coal, and energy companies that would be wiped out by these devices) and the inventors labs have often been burned down and the inventors their selves often beatin to death. And then it really explains in a simple way to the sheepish how the follow the money/pyramid of power works.
For those to lazy to research it goes like this in a pyramid scheme ..
(all living things>Govt.>Corporations>Big Banks>National Central Banks>International Central Banks>Bank of Central Banks>Financial Elite)
This is from thrives website (i honestly don't care what you think of thrive personally, I think if you don't believe this is how the world works that you are in denial because society has lied to us for so long)
""The different levels are broken down as follows:
Financial Elite – The global financial elite – including members or representatives of the Rockefeller, Rothschild, and Morgan families – hold secret meetings and make important decisions in closed groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations. These plans are then implemented throughout the world, further consolidating material wealth and control.
Bank for International Settlements – The BIS is the central bank of central banks based out of Basel, Switzerland that is controlled by the financial elite. It has 55 member central banks but is mainly run by bankers from the United States, England, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, and Japan. It operates with little transparency and is not accountable to national governments even though it has significant control over the global financial system by setting reserve requirements, the amount of money in banks around the world must have on reserve.
International Central Banks – Central bankers use the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to make more money while exploiting the resources of countries they lend to – bankrupting them in the process. For every dollar the US contributes to these banks, US Corporations – such as Halliburton, Exxon Mobil, and Bechtel (controlled by the economic elite) – receive more than double that amount in contracts from these international banks.[1]
National Central Banks – Almost all countries have a central bank (see the list here), of which commercial banks are members. Central banks set interest rates and determine the amount of money in circulation. They also lend to governments at interest, putting them above the lower four levels of the pyramid.
Big Banks – Big banks offer corporations loans at special rates, allowing them to do business. This puts banks in a powerful position, above corporations and the rest of us, because funding is what allows the corporations to go forward with their projects.
Corporatocracy – Corporations fund political campaigns and influence politicians through lobbying. Many are now bigger than entire national economies, putting corporations above government.
Government – Government is largely funded through taxpayer money, putting it above the people. If it wants to borrow extra money it must go to a Central Bank.
People, The Planet, and All Living Things – At the bottom level of the pyramid is the majority of people on this planet and all other life. As of 2010, one in every seven people on the planet did not have enough to eat and most ecosystems were suffering.""
Any way I could rant and bitch about how the world is fucked up all day, I will let those of you still sleeping decide for yourselves. If you don't believe any of this and think its all bullshit that is fine with me I'm just trying to spread some information that I have found that opened my eyes a little. Also if you want to watch some more videos a bit more on the extreme side exploring all of this watch "The Obama Deception" or "End Games"
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they make sense to a point but then they go on an hour tin foil tangent on each movie. i cant stand these window of truth stories like that other one Thrive. This is the type of extremist dribble that rots people's skulls who can't think for themselves. It's nice that they get people talking, but its a lot of agenda based propaganda.
Soo basically I got tired or reading after page two of the argue of "yes it will work this is how" and "no it's been tired and failed" either way I don't care. If this has been posted I am sorry. What my country (us) and pretty much the rest of the word is trying to do/is doing is NOT working at all. It is destroying the middle class and making us slaves to the rich.
On the topic of thrive, that is the first movie I ever watched that brought these new ideas to light and started to wake me up. There are "Free Energy Devices" that have been suppressed and destroyed by govt. (i e big oil, coal, and energy companies that would be wiped out by these devices) and the inventors labs have often been burned down and the inventors their selves often beatin to death. And then it really explains in a simple way to the sheepish how the follow the money/pyramid of power works.
For those to lazy to research it goes like this in a pyramid scheme ..
(all living things>Govt.>Corporations>Big Banks>National Central Banks>International Central Banks>Bank of Central Banks>Financial Elite)
This is from thrives website (i honestly don't care what you think of thrive personally, I think if you don't believe this is how the world works that you are in denial because society has lied to us for so long)
""The different levels are broken down as follows:
Financial Elite – The global financial elite – including members or representatives of the Rockefeller, Rothschild, and Morgan families – hold secret meetings and make important decisions in closed groups such as the Council on Foreign Relations. These plans are then implemented throughout the world, further consolidating material wealth and control.
Bank for International Settlements – The BIS is the central bank of central banks based out of Basel, Switzerland that is controlled by the financial elite. It has 55 member central banks but is mainly run by bankers from the United States, England, Germany, Switzerland, Italy, and Japan. It operates with little transparency and is not accountable to national governments even though it has significant control over the global financial system by setting reserve requirements, the amount of money in banks around the world must have on reserve.
International Central Banks – Central bankers use the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund (IMF) to make more money while exploiting the resources of countries they lend to – bankrupting them in the process. For every dollar the US contributes to these banks, US Corporations – such as Halliburton, Exxon Mobil, and Bechtel (controlled by the economic elite) – receive more than double that amount in contracts from these international banks.[1]
National Central Banks – Almost all countries have a central bank (see the list here), of which commercial banks are members. Central banks set interest rates and determine the amount of money in circulation. They also lend to governments at interest, putting them above the lower four levels of the pyramid.
Big Banks – Big banks offer corporations loans at special rates, allowing them to do business. This puts banks in a powerful position, above corporations and the rest of us, because funding is what allows the corporations to go forward with their projects.
Corporatocracy – Corporations fund political campaigns and influence politicians through lobbying. Many are now bigger than entire national economies, putting corporations above government.
Government – Government is largely funded through taxpayer money, putting it above the people. If it wants to borrow extra money it must go to a Central Bank.
People, The Planet, and All Living Things – At the bottom level of the pyramid is the majority of people on this planet and all other life. As of 2010, one in every seven people on the planet did not have enough to eat and most ecosystems were suffering.""
Any way I could rant and bitch about how the world is fucked up all day, I will let those of you still sleeping decide for yourselves. If you don't believe any of this and think its all bullshit that is fine with me I'm just trying to spread some information that I have found that opened my eyes a little. Also if you want to watch some more videos a bit more on the extreme side exploring all of this watch "The Obama Deception" or "End Games"
I believe what you're saying, to an extent. So what can 'we' that know 'the truth' do about it? The majority of people are too ignorant to care, they enjoy their 9-5 lives, getting drunk on Friday-Saturday, their 1 week holiday to your typical holiday destination, whilst slaving away rest of the year.
It's way too hard educating people that don't want to be educated, they're just stupid and ignorant. What can we do?
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Let's start off with your first big mistake:
" these are pleasant countries, low crime, well educated people, homelessness is virtually non existant, free healthcare for everyone, free education for everyone, clean streets, everything is nice"
No, this is all just wrong. There is not free healthcare or education. You pay for it through very high taxes. There is crime in all of these countries, just less violent crime involving firearms. There are well educated people all over the world. Homelessness is easier to manage with a smaller population.
The fishing scenario: When a species is low on population, laws are passed that ban the fishing/killing of that particular species. Sure you could say "well people would break the law"....of course, they would also break the law in this utopian society you are trying to propose.
"Look at the world for a second, how many of the actual jobs are needed? You don't need bankers, lawyers, politicians, marketing people, estate agents, sales people, I could go on and on and on and lists how 95% of all jobs that exist there is absolutely no need for."
95%? Oh really? There's no need for garbage-men, postal workers, constructions workers, repairmen for all of the machines you are so enthusiastic about building to automate everything? You don't need people who know the legal system of your society to prevent you from being falsely imprisoned? You don't need people to keep your money somewhat safe (I know this is controversial)? Companies shouldn't be allowed to advertise products or services available to the public? No one should be around to figure out what laws should be passed? No one should know where homes are for sale and which ones are in your price range and help you with the paperwork to purchase it?
"Or Maybe.. just maybe in a world where everyone has what they need people can spend their time doing things that actually does good things for the rest people. McDonalds claim "Yeah we are a great company, we pay 300 000 people around the world an absolute shitty salary, we make them wear a uniform, we make them work a stressful manual job that really could be fully automated and they have no future prospects". How about letting these people do what they want, give them free education to pursue science, let them create art, movies or whatever"
Uniforms are proven to make people feel more comfortable in stores. You are making anyone work any job. They are choosing to work at McDonalds in most cases. And no, it could not be fully automated. A computer cannot offer custom customer service. What happens if their computer system goes down? Oh well, no food I suppose.
So we should let everyone basically do whatever they want? Who wants to do any sort of difficult job without monetary compensation (95% of jobs are useless, remember? so we would have an unemployment rate near 100%). Movies are such an asset to society, for someone so against free-market, why should movies be allowed? I could become a movie maker and make XX amount of money, or become a scientist and make XX amount of money. The same problem still exists.
God you are brainwashed.
"Meaningless jobs within the service sectors (waitress, bartenders, salesmen) are not needed, they're only there so that the poor can serve the rich."
Those are all important jobs. Waiters/Waitresses offer customer service, something that can NOT be automated. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Sometimes people need to go to a restaurant and relax. The poor are not serving the rich, get the Marxist ideas out of your head. Sure, some of his ideas make sense, but you are stretching it. Bartenders provide entertainment, they keep drunk people off the roads.
"We can build a machine that can be maintained by one person, or a very small group of part time volunteers that can feed an entire city. Do you understand that once this machine is built, nobody in the city needs to work, we have the machine that produces food for everyone, you get it?"
Do you understand that once this machine is built that people will have to maintain it and it will have to run off of some sort of energy? If no one is working, there will be crime. You fail to realize that we would still need some form of government. You should really read "A Brave New World".
"Food NEEDS to be grown locally. We can't have food and and things shipped all over the world, why can't you see that bincofone"
You seem to believe there is unlimited space. We do not have the space to manufacture everything we'd need/like. We have tons of space in the west, but that is used for GROWING FOOD LOCALLY.
Your whole fruit argument is just completely invalid. For one, hydroponic systems cannot control how much fruit a plant/tree produces. They control the amount of nutrients, water and sunlight it receives. Sure, it could make production faster, but you cannot "program" it to say, produce exactly 100 apples this week. Then you say the food is in a warehouse where anyone can go and take as much as they want. You literally said earlier "how is it fair that I can buy a bunch of oil and burn it in my yard". What's the difference? There isn't one. Then you even suggest shipping more food from other places. Something else you JUST ARGUED AGAINST. Jesus.
tl;dr you have no idea what you're proposing.
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Let's start off with your first big mistake:
" these are pleasant countries, low crime, well educated people, homelessness is virtually non existant, free healthcare for everyone, free education for everyone, clean streets, everything is nice"
No, this is all just wrong. There is not free healthcare or education. You pay for it through very high taxes. There is crime in all of these countries, just less violent crime involving firearms. There are well educated people all over the world. Homelessness is easier to manage with a smaller population.
Yes, healthcare and education is paid through taxes, so what? My point is that it is accessible to everyone and this is a benefit to everyone in the country. Why you might ask? Because, isn't it nice to live in a society where everyone is well educated and everyone has access to quality health care? Even if you don't care about the morality of it all, its better for everyone because in a society where people are left uneducated, what happens? They can't get good jobs and they turn to crime. People can't pay for healthcare they need to survive? Guess what, they turn to crime. If you live in a society that has these huge gaps it is bad for EVERYONE within the society. What do you propose is a better solution, to do what the US does perhaps? Which is to increase the penalties for all crimes and to make prisons as bad and cheap as possible. This just increases crime, and when people get out they are more likely to re offend. It's a vicious circle. Look at the statistics, the US has the highest prison rates in the world and its increasing. They have that attitude that punishing people is the best way to deter crime, it's so incredibly stupid. Why can't you/they see the trends?
That thing about their just being violent crimes involving firearms, where the hell did you get that?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate - Compare USA with the socialist European countries.
You have no idea what you're talking about, I'm presuming you're American and have hardly been abroad? I have lived in many different countries and traveled extensively, I know what I am talking about.
Also, I don't think you understand the importance of having EVERYONE in a society being well educated, look at America, there are so many incredibly stupid people, their stupidity is everyone's problem. Stupid people get stupid ideas and do stupid things. Not to mention the fact that stupid people are unproductive and don't aid society.
The fishing scenario: When a species is low on population, laws are passed that ban the fishing/killing of that particular species. Sure you could say "well people would break the law"....of course, they would also break the law in this utopian society you are trying to propose.
No that's the point. People wouldn't break the laws because people would first of all be much better educated, and secondly people would have everything they need so there wouldn't be any need to break laws. Laws are extremely expensive and difficult to enforce, try and understand this new way of thinking and doing things: Instead of forbidding, banning and enforcing laws. Focus on educating people and giving them options and alternatives, this is much cheaper and better for everyone in the long run. In a Resource Based Economy there wouldn't be any need for money so nobody would feel the need to exploit certain fishing spots in order to make a profit. The monetary system we used today promotes this sort of destructive behaviour.
"Look at the world for a second, how many of the actual jobs are needed? You don't need bankers, lawyers, politicians, marketing people, estate agents, sales people, I could go on and on and on and lists how 95% of all jobs that exist there is absolutely no need for."
95%? Oh really? There's no need for garbage-men, postal workers, constructions workers, repairmen for all of the machines you are so enthusiastic about building to automate everything? You don't need people who know the legal system of your society to prevent you from being falsely imprisoned? You don't need people to keep your money somewhat safe (I know this is controversial)? Companies shouldn't be allowed to advertise products or services available to the public? No one should be around to figure out what laws should be passed? No one should know where homes are for sale and which ones are in your price range and help you with the paperwork to purchase it?
In the society we live in today those jobs are required, yes. If you were able to think beyond what is right in front of you and just think. Society is extremely cumbersome and inefficient because everything has been built on top of each other. Cities and roads and systems are inefficient because they were built 100+ years ago and haven't changed. What we need to do is to completely change everything into a new society and new cities in a new world.
Let's start with Garbage Men and postal workers. First of all there is no need for postal workers as everything today can be done electronically through email. There would only be a need for a very limited "postal system" for certain things that have to be sent physically. These could easily be sent through automated systems that are pre-built into new cities. These could be completely automated, you go to a "postal center" you place whatever you want to send into a specific container, type into the computer where you want it to go, and of it goes, once its arrived at the postal center closest to the person you sent it to, he gets a notification on his phone that it has arrived. (This is just an example of how a postal system could be built and once it built it would require extremely little maintenance, this is just an idea, I know some countries use mobile notifications which is extremely efficient. Building it would require a lot yes, but it can definitely be done.) Regarding the garbage, first of all it wouldn't be called garbage, it would be called recycling as virtually everything can be recycled, what do garbage men actually do? They drive around and put those bins onto the car that then empties them. Are you saying we couldn't come up with a system where people leave their rubbish in widely distributed places that automatically takes the rubbish to the recycling center?
Repairmen aren't really needed if things are built a different way. I'm not a technician but I know how to replace every part in my computer. All machines could be built in a similar way, or even a better way. They can troubleshoot them self. Before you say this is impossible, look at the latest cars, they can virtually work out them self if/when something has broken or is about to break on the car.
There wouldn't need to be laws, people know what's right and wrong, laws are just societies way of trying to solve problems they can't solve by other means, today we can solve the problems at their core. Do you honestly need a bunch of people to tell everyone what is right and what is wrong? No you don't, it's common sense. Murder is wrong, period, we don't need a law telling us that. Smoking cannabis in your own home is fine it doesn't need to be illegal. And no we don't need money, do you even know what a Resource Based Economy is?
Do you understand the concept that we could build a completely new society where these things won't be needed, a truly productive and efficient society?
"Or Maybe.. just maybe in a world where everyone has what they need people can spend their time doing things that actually does good things for the rest people. McDonalds claim "Yeah we are a great company, we pay 300 000 people around the world an absolute shitty salary, we make them wear a uniform, we make them work a stressful manual job that really could be fully automated and they have no future prospects". How about letting these people do what they want, give them free education to pursue science, let them create art, movies or whatever"
Uniforms are proven to make people feel more comfortable in stores. You are making anyone work any job. They are choosing to work at McDonalds in most cases. And no, it could not be fully automated. A computer cannot offer custom customer service. What happens if their computer system goes down? Oh well, no food I suppose.
So we should let everyone basically do whatever they want? Who wants to do any sort of difficult job without monetary compensation (95% of jobs are useless, remember? so we would have an unemployment rate near 100%). Movies are such an asset to society, for someone so against free-market, why should movies be allowed? I could become a movie maker and make XX amount of money, or become a scientist and make XX amount of money. The same problem still exists.
They are choosing to work in McDonald's because in this society we live in everyone has to find a way to earn a living. Even though jobs are disappearing and the logical thing to do is to free people from these type of jobs, instead we try and create more pointless and meaningless jobs. Screw customer service, you don't need customer service. Why does it matter if you get your burger from a machine or from a person? Let the machines do that shit, if you want to socialize with someone go play golf with a friend or go to a bar, you don't need to socialize with someone when obtaining your food. If the system goes down it is fixed by a technician, a nearby system can be used as a backup whilst the other one is being fixed.
Your next point is just stupid. Do you know how much scientists earn? Do you know how difficult their jobs are? There are lot's of difficult jobs that don't earn a lot of money, people do them because they like the subject and/or because they want to make a difference,why can't you grasp this concept?
Of course movies should be made, they are a form of art. I don't understand what point you are trying to make? People make movies because they ejoy making movies, people become actors because they enjoy acting. People don't do it because of money.
God you are brainwashed.
"Meaningless jobs within the service sectors (waitress, bartenders, salesmen) are not needed, they're only there so that the poor can serve the rich."
Those are all important jobs. Waiters/Waitresses offer customer service, something that can NOT be automated. GET THAT THROUGH YOUR HEAD. Sometimes people need to go to a restaurant and relax. The poor are not serving the rich, get the Marxist ideas out of your head. Sure, some of his ideas make sense, but you are stretching it. Bartenders provide entertainment, they keep drunk people off the roads.
"Customer Service"? Dude come on. If your food can be automatically made and brought to you in a restaurant isn't that better if it means no one needs to work a slave job? You can still relax and enjoy a meal with family or friends, you don't need to be served like a baby. People that feel the need to have some waiter shove a napkin in their collar and poor them their wine need psychological help. Grow up. Bartenders don't do anything. Machines can pour(make drinks. You want entertainment? Well in a Resource Based Economy people won't have to work so someone that enjoys singing or playing an instrument can spend their time doing that, then when they get good they can play to audiences in a bar, for free, because they enjoy doing it. Lot's of people do things because they enjoy doing them. Not because of money. People only do things for money because they are forced to in this monetary system, if money wasn't an issue people could do things they really enjoy, and yes, there are people that enjoy science and engineering and technology.
"We can build a machine that can be maintained by one person, or a very small group of part time volunteers that can feed an entire city. Do you understand that once this machine is built, nobody in the city needs to work, we have the machine that produces food for everyone, you get it?"
Do you understand that once this machine is built that people will have to maintain it and it will have to run off of some sort of energy? If no one is working, there will be crime. You fail to realize that we would still need some form of government. You should really read "A Brave New World".
Yes it needs to be maintained by one person, think about it. What are the chances of a machine breaking? You could have one person maintaining a hundred machines and he would only be doing it part time. You would only need a tiny percentage of the population willing to volunteer and the jobs they would carry out would be nothing like the jobs of today where people slave 9-5 for their whole lives.
Energy is not an issue. Stick a bunch of solar panels on the roof and you're done. Yes it requires an initial investment but once its payed you have free energy for however long solar panels last. And by the time they are replaced, technology would of advanced so far that solar panels will probably be able to last centuries without having to be replaced.
"Food NEEDS to be grown locally. We can't have food and and things shipped all over the world, why can't you see that bincofone"
You seem to believe there is unlimited space. We do not have the space to manufacture everything we'd need/like. We have tons of space in the west, but that is used for GROWING FOOD LOCALLY.
Your whole fruit argument is just completely invalid. For one, hydroponic systems cannot control how much fruit a plant/tree produces. They control the amount of nutrients, water and sunlight it receives. Sure, it could make production faster, but you cannot "program" it to say, produce exactly 100 apples this week. Then you say the food is in a warehouse where anyone can go and take as much as they want. You literally said earlier "how is it fair that I can buy a bunch of oil and burn it in my yard". What's the difference? There isn't one. Then you even suggest shipping more food from other places. Something else you JUST ARGUED AGAINST. Jesus.
tl;dr you have no idea what you're proposing.
Have you seen how efficient vertical hydroponic growing methods are?
I know exactly what a hydroponic system is, you don't need to lecture me. The point I made was that if food is starting to become scarce, the growing operation is expanded by volunteers.
What's wrong with the warehouse of food? You don't get the point. In a resourced based economy people would get/have everything they need, nobody would go into the warehouse and take food they don't need. You only need and want three meals a day. You only want a few items of fruit every day, why would anyone take more? Taking more than you need would mean you make it more scarce and scarcity = problems for society. Problems for society = problems for you. These are all things that people would be educated about in 'the future'.
Regarding the shipment of food. I mean that things are shipped from nearby cities on a rail system. Nearby cities would be a couple miles proximity. There is a difference between shipping something a couple miles on rails (rails are mega effective).And shipping something on lorry, airplane around the world then lorry again. And the transportation of food would only be done in emergencies when there is an actual scarcity of something. Are you totally stupid or what? Can't you see the difference?
I know exactly what I am proposing. A compete reform in the way society operates. I don't know every technical aspects but if you look at the technology that exist today there is no reason it can't be done. The only thing stopping us from living in an almost perfect world are people like you with your attitude. 30 something thousand children die a year and you still want to sit and argue that the current system is working? Or lemme guess, you propose a free market system? Yeah like that's gonna work. Complete chaos and anarchy. What I am proposing would mean a lot more freedom then any of the already politically established concepts that exist, including the "totally free market" concepts.
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really nice documentary. there is a 2nd one now. i think