Silk Road forums
Discussion => Legal => Topic started by: Real_Drugs on August 05, 2013, 12:32 am
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I thought it would be an idea to make a thread about handle police before/after arrest. There has been much debate about this and I would like to know what the general consensus is.
Personally I am a firm believer in the "no comment".
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More times then not, 'No Comment' is best and acceptable you can give. However sometimes it can work against you in a court of law, especially when they have a mountain of evidence against you. But you need to elaborate more on where and how your trying to handle the police, when you have been driving a motor vehicle, random stop and search in the street? There are different scenarios and sometimes they can play out differently.
Meerkovo
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"I don't wish to answer any questions."
"I don't consent to any searches."
"Officer, am I free to go?"
(Repeat...)
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with ease
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you can be detained for reasonables causes, and throwin in jail for 24 hours. during that time they will degrade you and try to make you crack. YOU WILL NOT BE PROSECUTED UNTIL THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE. assuming this about SR and ordering. if you keep your mouth sut you be a free man in no time at all.
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"I don't wish to answer any questions."
"I don't consent to any searches."
"Officer, am I free to go?"
(Repeat...)
Great vid.
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"Am I being detained or am I free to go."
With that said they either have to arrest you or they have to let you go. I believe the traffic rule is something like a cop cannot hold you for more than 15 minutes unless you are being detained... though most cops won't know that. If you aren't being detained(as in they smelled something in your car, etc, or are arresting you) then technically you are free to go.
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I'm also curious how far this "don't talk to the police" advice should be taken. For example if a cop knocks on my door, but as far as I'm aware they have no reason to suspect me of doing anything, should I just refuse to open it? Couldn't they just be asking around for information about a crime unrelated to me? I know refusing to open the door to the police by itself shouldn't be enough for them to get a search warrant, but it may put me more on their radar as a suspicious person. On the other hand they could know more about my activities than I hoped, and be looking to trip me up, but there's no way to know in advance.
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I'm also curious how far this "don't talk to the police" advice should be taken. For example if a cop knocks on my door, but as far as I'm aware they have no reason to suspect me of doing anything, should I just refuse to open it? Couldn't they just be asking around for information about a crime unrelated to me? I know refusing to open the door to the police by itself shouldn't be enough for them to get a search warrant, but it may put me more on their radar as a suspicious person. On the other hand they could know more about my activities than I hoped, and be looking to trip me up, but there's no way to know in advance.
If you know LE is at the door, why answer it at all?
If they were going to bust down your door, they would have. Why open the door and give them an opportunity to lie and force themselves in?... i.e. they smelled drugs or saw something that looked like XYZ in the background which gave them the right to search.
And if their warrant gave them to right to bust down your door after they tried to get you to answer, so be it. How do they know you're just not a really heavy sleeper or something? I'm not completely sure about this, but what if your attorney later found that the warrant was somehow flawed and shouldn't have been legal?...if you answered and consented to the search, this new revelation wouldn't do you much good. But if they had to break your door down, which you didn't consent to, you'd probably have a stronger case. I could be wrong especially depending on locale, but fuck them, I could care less about my door. LE likes to cover their bases...like even if they had a warrant or exigent circumstance, shifty LE will still try to get you on record consenting to a search just in case during the trial they screwed up someplace/somehow.
Someone knocks on my door when I'm not expecting it, I don't answer.
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1. Cops are NOT your friends. Their job revolves around charging people with offences. A granny who crossed on a red light, a young kid who stole 50 cents worth of gum, a uni student who has 1 gram of pot... they are all potential revenue for the cop. The more people the cop busts the better his salary is. Cops are there to serve the government and themselves, not the citizen, never forget that!
2. You only need to state your name and address to police. After that it's NO COMMENT or I would like to maintain my right to be silent! When you confess or talk to the cops, you not only prosecute yourself in the process but you are actually doing the cops' work for them, If confronted by the cops anywhere, ask if you are being detained, if not ask if you can go. If not and they keep wanting to "talk to you" say NO COMMENT and demand your lawyer.
3. Be respectful to cops as they can fuck you up, hurt you or even murder you.
4. Cops can't enter your home without a warrant. If you hear cops knock on your door, the best advice is not to even open the door. Pretend no one is home.
Watch this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8z7NC5sgik and http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=08fZQWjDVKE
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you can be detained for reasonables causes, and throwin in jail for 24 hours. during that time they will degrade you and try to make you crack. YOU WILL NOT BE PROSECUTED UNTIL THERE IS ENOUGH EVIDENCE. assuming this about SR and ordering. if you keep your mouth sut you be a free man in no time at all.
ok, so how do they go about getting this evidence during that 24 hour time period? Are they ransacking the shit out of your house and vehicle? Or just making you sweat?
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4. Cops can't enter your home without a warrant. If you hear cops knock on your door, the best advice is not to even open the door. Pretend no one is home.
They could enter your neighbour's house accidentally and shoot up an old lady, which IIRC is what happened recently. Actually there's been several cases of cops kicking down the wrong door, the owner acting in self defence and being prosecuted....
Where I come from:
"I don't consent to any searches."
Well that's just great sweetheart, you hold on to that consent like it's your firstborn. We're still going to rip your car apart anyway. No warrant required, just 'suspicion of presence of drugs. I knew a cop once. He told me that if a drivers pissed him off he wouldn't hit him with some phoney "you ran that red light back there" routine - too much paperwork. He'd spend 30mnins searching his car for drugs instead.
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I think the truth is that you cannot handle police. The best you can hope, is to avoid having police handle you. Be straight, simple, non-combative. And whatever you do do not try anything fancy.
The idea that "cops are not your friends" stands as solid advice while also being slightly misguided. Certainly, do not admit anything to police, they are not there to help criminals. But treating a police officer with respect and thoughtful consideration will always get you a lot farther then being combative.
Most importantly: The guilty talk in attempts to defend themselves. The innocent stay silent for they have nothing to fear.
This all said, it really really depends under what circumstance you are interacting with LE. A car stop vs getting caught with a joint vs having your door busted down are obviously different scenarios. But even so, being combative will get you nowhere fast.
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Remember : They LIE- OFTEN
The good cop and bad cop are both in reality dumb and dumberer cop.
If they tell you it's a crime to lie to an investigator, remember quietly to yourself that the 1st amendment states to the contrary.
No information you tell them will lessen the charges you face time you spend incarcerated. Even the police dont respect snitches. Keep your mouth shut.
Admit to nothing, make tham have to prove it.
Do not sign away your rights no matter who in the court system tells you to.
The pub defender, DA, and Judge are all incohoots with each other- your attorney is on his own side- only one on your side is you.
IF most people wouldn't sign off their right to a speedy trial, and not accept plea bargains, courts would have to only take on the most serious and legitamate criminal cases. Like they should.
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2. You only need to state your name and address to police. After that it's NO COMMENT....
I think even that is going too far. From what I understand the first thing a cop needs to do upon targeting a person is getting their ID. They will always ask for this first and formost (assuming they haven't observed you commit a crime so they can't just outright attack you) as they need to establish jurisdiction. They need you to show them that you consent to Their Rule. By showing government ID or even stating your name for them, they may assume that you are one of their subjects. Y ou should, upon being accosted by police, demand they show their, badge, ID, and business cards before anything else and remember that masters ask questions, slaves answer them. Cops are YOUR public servants and need to be treated as such. There is nothing wrong with simply repeating the questions: "Am I being detained?" and "Why am I being detained?"
Of course, you better make damn sure you're not alone with these thugs, and that cameras are rolling if you even want to think about bringing up your rights. We're not in Kansas anymore, Toto.
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i would love to see a defence attoney ama about this, there has to be at least one around here
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i would love to see a defence attoney ama about this, there has to be at least one around here
Everyone should really see the video in my signature:
Never talk to police: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6wXkI4t7nuc
It is a lecture by a law professor to a group of law students.
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I'm also curious how far this "don't talk to the police" advice should be taken. For example if a cop knocks on my door, but as far as I'm aware they have no reason to suspect me of doing anything, should I just refuse to open it? Couldn't they just be asking around for information about a crime unrelated to me? I know refusing to open the door to the police by itself shouldn't be enough for them to get a search warrant, but it may put me more on their radar as a suspicious person. On the other hand they could know more about my activities than I hoped, and be looking to trip me up, but there's no way to know in advance.
I've dealt with this before, only they were trying to break down the door because I made the mistake of opening it... NEVER OPEN THE FUCKING DOOR. If you live in an apartment find out if they give the police a key to your place w/o a warrant too! Most places don't care about your "rights" in the USA. If they are trying to break in, then flush everything! Don't try to hide it because if they find it you are even more fucked. I am free man today because of this.
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IF most people wouldn't sign off their right to a speedy trial, and not accept plea bargains, courts would have to only take on the most serious and legitamate criminal cases. Like they should.
You're absolutely right. Plea bargaining is what allows a system that over-criminalizes everything to stay afloat, and just barely at that. If average people had to spend weeks out of every year sitting through possession trials the drug war would lose support fast. It's astounding how few people, even well educated ones, realize that few cases ever go to trial. The justice system is broken, and it's not changing anytime soon.
And all of that doesn't even touch on situations where innocent people take deals out of fear of being punished for going to trial and losing.
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"I don't wish to answer any questions."
"I don't consent to any searches."
"Officer, am I free to go?"
(Repeat...)
the last one is so important and remember if you are free to leave at anytime and you stay silent on certain questions, that can be used against you.
The Salinas case revolves around Genovevo Salinas, a man who was convicted of a 1992 murder of two brothers. Salinas was brought in for police questioning in January 1993. According to the dissenting opinion of Justice Breyer, he was called in to "to take photographs and to clear him as [a]suspect" and Salinas was questioned without being read his Miranda rights:
Because he was "free to leave at that time," [App.14], they did not give him Miranda warnings. The police then asked Salinas questions. The police then asked Salinas questions. And Salinas answered until the police asked him whether the shotgun from his home "would match the shells recovered at the scene of the murder [Id., at 17.] At that point Salinas fell silent.
That silence was then used against Salinas in court, and he was eventually convicted. But the bigger question in revisiting this 20-year-old murder case was whether or not prosecutors were allowed to point to that silence, and win a case using Salinas' own silence against him.
(clearnet source) http://news.yahoo.com/supreme-court-decided-silence-used-against-161934950.html
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Take said piggy. Giant frying pan with grease. Fry. mmm
or shoot the fucker in the face...
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If it came to it is there ways to cover why your bank account is buying bitcoins and how they were used or is the best answer to that no comment and leave it to them to prove what you did with them?
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@ HiTTheRoad why are you buying using your bank account, just as simple to use cash deposit.
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IF most people wouldn't sign off their right to a speedy trial, and not accept plea bargains, courts would have to only take on the most serious and legitamate criminal cases. Like they should.
You're absolutely right. Plea bargaining is what allows a system that over-criminalizes everything to stay afloat, and just barely at that. If average people had to spend weeks out of every year sitting through possession trials the drug war would lose support fast. It's astounding how few people, even well educated ones, realize that few cases ever go to trial. The justice system is broken, and it's not changing anytime soon.
And all of that doesn't even touch on situations where innocent people take deals out of fear of being punished for going to trial and losing.
I was arrested awhile back for petty shit, not at all drug related. The fines were less than a retainer fee(how convenient, right?) so it didn't make sense to hire a lawyer. I had a buddy of mine advise me since his boss wouldn't let him take the case pro-bono but otherwise I handled it all. Showing up to my plea hearings, my prelim, etc. I can see why people don't want to fight crap...I sat in the court room for 2-3hrs EACH time to spend 3 mins in front of the judge saying 4 "Yes your honor" and leaving. Of course, because I didn't have a lawyer(or one that the prosecutor liked), I went to the bottom of the pile EVERY time. Why couldn't I go first? The lawyers that are in there rep multiple clients at a time so they were up there for sometimes 30+mins.
By the end of the ordeal(about 6 months in total), I was seriously ready for a plea deal. I didn't even care anymore, I was over the stress of being arrested and was tired of wasting my PTO to sit in the court room for 3 hours. The system is so broken, it's unreal. Six fucking months for 2 misdemeanors? I could have done the entire thing, start to finish in about 15 mins if I just got the judge and prosecutor alone. The judge was great and I think he really liked the fact I stood up in front of the court myself in response to my own actions. He did speak candidly to me a couple of times which was a nice touch....I think more of that needs to happen. Not everything needs to be defined in a law book and sometimes good people get put in bad situations and LEO overreact(even admitted to me by their superior, yet no dropped charges).
Fuck the US Justice system.
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Please remember to kennel your dog or put it outside....Your dog will not survive the encounter.
Ryno
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@ HiTTheRoad why are you buying using your bank account, just as simple to use cash deposit.
How can I use a cash deposit to buy bitcoins? Might be different from where you live compared to where I'm from
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@ HiTTheRoad why are you buying using your bank account, just as simple to use cash deposit.
How can I use a cash deposit to buy bitcoins? Might be different from where you live compared to where I'm from
localbitcoins.com but i don't know where you are...
Ryno
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@ HiTTheRoad why are you buying using your bank account, just as simple to use cash deposit.
How can I use a cash deposit to buy bitcoins? Might be different from where you live compared to where I'm from
localbitcoins.com but i don't know where you are...
Ryno
@ rynoragin Thank you!
Looks like I don't have to find people willing to use bank account transfers to buy bitcoins anymore :)
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I have a norml card...if they ever have any questions...I would just be polite and, hand them the card. =)
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Dont talk and make sure if you are arrested and they say "Do you understand" say NO. That is legal jargon for standing under them, if you accept this then you are agreeing to their authority. A very very important point to remember.
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Whatever you do, don't run! I knew a guy who was speeding, and like an idiot tried to outrun the cops in his hot-rod. Ran out of gas (which was very funny) in five minutes, then took off on foot. They caught up...took chase...caught him...beat him (not funny). Internal injuries, and broken collar bone, and of course arrested and prosecuted.
He was doing maybe 15 miles an hour over the speed limit.
These guys have the authority to use force, and absolutely can't wait to do so. Give them no opportunity.
Be respectful (and keep your tail between your legs...they love that), say nothing other than what has been advised. I don't feel comfortable answering questions, I don't consent to any searches, may I go now?
I don't hate LE, they are a necessary evil. I don't hold out any illusions about them either. Most of these are people that love to impose their will on others (like any thug). If you get robbed or something you're almost certainly out of luck, these nitwits couldn't catch a cold never mind a smart robber. Protection? No, they just write reports, you must learn to protect yourself in this world.
Case and point story here. Was at a movie theater with some friends. We came in my buddies beautiful new sports car (a week old). After the movie we came out, and the car was gone. He was distraught. There was a cop standing on the sidewalk nearby and rushed over to him to get some help. He told me we had to go down to the station and fill out a report. I presumed that he'd not understood...I reiterated the tale of descibing the car, the timing, and pointing to where the car had been and telling him that it had "just" been stolen. He got pissy...and told me to go to the station and started to walk away. No APB, no calling all cars, no fucking one-adam-12? I got pissy back "What the fuck are we going to use to go to the station my fucking friends car just got fucking stolen!?". He came roaring back at me and threatened to arrest me is I didn't back off.
Protect & serve my ass. >:(
R.
R.
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Reason. I know what your talking about! I guess if it was his car or his wife or his pig buddy's he would go about it different!
FTP
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I would love if at least some of you spoke about hot to handle the police in Europe.
Most of the things that you guys said until now , doesn't work in most of the countries ( maybe i am wrong about this )
I know at least the "not speaking" and "not admit anything" works but the other rules don't apply to Europe , just to US only .
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I would love if at least some of you spoke about hot to handle the police in Europe.
Most of the things that you guys said until now , doesn't work in most of the countries ( maybe i am wrong about this )
I know at least the "not speaking" and "not admit anything" works but the other rules don't apply to Europe , just to US only .
I'm from Europe and the way I think of it now after having an experience with local police (not drug related) is to remember that it is their job to prove you are guilty of something and anything you tell them helps them to do their job when you are entitled to say "no comment" or deny anything and if asked to make a statement don't until you have discussed the scenario with a solicitor who would advise the same.
No matter how nervous or crazy the situation, try keep your head and say nothing because they take notes and it will be used against you. It is very hard to not start telling them your side of the story but don't
Even if they catch you with something, say nothing and again, they have to prove you're guilty and they do screw up a lot building a case.
Does this make sense or is it what you already know?
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Like other people have said, there's gonna be different situations in which you encounter LE but I am assuming you would be concerned more about either being caught in possession of drugs in public, transporting them in your car, or receiving them in the mail - stop and search in person/public order offence, road traffic violation, and possession charge for receiving drugs in the mail.
If you are stopped in public or pulled over by traffic cops, in the EU all your obliged to tell LE is name, address and DOB. Provide your driving licence if driving (or you'll be asked where it is and likely they will try to draw you into conversation about this).
Situations vary, but for the most part say fuck all.
Don't panic.
Act surprised if you feel it works.
Listen to what they are saying to you. It's ok to ask what powers they are using if you feel the situation merits it - LE often prey on the average person's lack of knowledge of their civil rights - but you may end up in a conversation. Given their response, and whether their interest would result in you being detained in any way, you should be able to gauge how to play it.
Do not consent to any kind of search.
If you have to have something in your car, don't be driving around stoned or under the influence of anything, or give LE any reason to pull you over. Why go to the extent of using SR and then fuck up all the effort you've put into remaining anonymous by not taking the same precautions IRL? However if they do, and you are straight, it'll more than likely be for a traffic offence, so get your paranoia under control and keep your responses to the bare minimum. If you get a ticket, be pissed off like you would any other time, not fucking relieved that you didn't get searched and basically thanking them for your fine. But you can be pissed off with a scowl and still say fuck all.
Don't let them in your house, but you don't need to be rude and piss them off either (unless they already have a warrant to enter/arrest, and if they do then you were probably kinda fucked well before they came a-knocking), and if you're at all concerned they may come back make sure you take immediate steps to have nothing incriminating in your home. There's a whole lotta threads on plausible deniability in the Security section.
And say fuck all.
If you're in EU, article 6 of the ECHR provides the right for people not to incriminate themselves - this is incorporated into the domestic law of every EU country. So in case this might be a right you have to exercise SAY FUCK ALL. We all know criminal charges have higher thresholds for proof so use this to your advantage and call a lawyer.
Let your lawyer do the talking - you say fuck all.
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Great post, mate.
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2. You only need to state your name and address to police. After that it's NO COMMENT....
I think even that is going too far. From what I understand the first thing a cop needs to do upon targeting a person is getting their ID. They will always ask for this first and formost (assuming they haven't observed you commit a crime so they can't just outright attack you) as they need to establish jurisdiction. They need you to show them that you consent to Their Rule. By showing government ID or even stating your name for them, they may assume that you are one of their subjects.
When Lenny Bruce was arrested for "obscenity", the cops asked George Carlin, who was backstage, for his name and ID. Carlin was honest with the cops, and told he "did not believe in goverment IDs", and promptly found himself sitting in the back set of a cop care with Lenny Bruce, his likely objective.
I think you have to give an ID, and it makes sense to be polite with anyone with a gun. But you don't have talk to them, and you never consent to a search. Remember that a cop CAN NOT testify about what you say that helps you because that's hearsay. If it hurts your case, its called evidence. Don't talk or consent to searches.
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(have not read anything)
LE (at least around here) had the lowest education possible.
So:
1: YOU KNOW ABOUT NOTHING!
2: Ask their name etc.
If 1 fails, pay people to visit their homes. Or be friends with somebody who's almost like the hulk so he can beat 5 cops down which will be invalid cops/people the rest of their lives. This does not need to happen. Just the fear is enough.
And remember: FEAR is the biggest weapon on earth.