Silk Road forums

Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: FenderGuitarMan on May 23, 2012, 11:28 am

Title: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: FenderGuitarMan on May 23, 2012, 11:28 am
My wife and I discovered spice at a head shop in Tampa Bay Florida. We don't have access to really good weed so we starting smoking spice. She's been smoking a lot, whereas I am a little more cautious because I smoked some that made me anxious and paranoid. I've read a bunch of posts here and it seem that people are pretty down on this stuff. You don't really know what is in the stuff you buy from head shops since it isn't labeled.

Should we stop smoking this stuff completely? Now that I discovered SR I can probably get access to the type of buds I like. We live out in the boondocks in Massachusetts and I don't really have any local connections. Man would I love a local connection. That's what I really need. Someone with buds, maybe hash from time to time, and some oxys or similar from time-to-time!

But I digress, back to the spice. Are we risking our health in a big way smoking this shite?
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: Lawnmower on May 23, 2012, 12:27 pm
There really isn't much research (that I know of) concerning these drugs.

For more information do a search around for "synthetic cannabinoids". The wikipedia entry has a list of the most commonly used drugs in Spice, K2 etc..

There has been many reports of negative psychological reactions to this stuff compared to normal cannabis. I have read news reports of kids dying from cardiac problems after using K2 but we all know how reliable those are.....
I tried spice and hated it. It is superficially like weed but lacks the comforting warmth of a good smoke and has this really unpleasant edginess to it.

In my - fairly uneducated - opinion I would say stop smoking it, and grow your own! Assuming you have a safe place to do it, growing is very easy, very fun and rewarding and it is reassuring to know that your supplies are clean and the money isn't going to some awful criminal enterprise! It is also extremely cheap. 250w HPS, pots, soil, a 4 inch fan and 4-5 small plants (preferably started from clone) will easily keep a moderate smoker in weed at all times, for 300 euros plus the small cost for electricity.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: tedka on May 23, 2012, 12:28 pm
hello!
i have a lot of experience with indole class synthetic cannabinoids (used more than 120g, mostly jwh-122 and jwh-018) and can give you a  share of my educated opinion.

synthetic noids of the JWH family and its close relatives dont compare too good to weed; they are much more potent, develop tolerance way faster, have a kind of different spectrum of desired effects (more munchies/painkilling/aphrodisiac/sedating effects and less euphoria/possible sociability compared to cannabis) and some of them can produce SEVERE side effects if you arent a veteran stoner. while weed at worst may produce mild to average paranoia, some JWHs average to strong anxiety (and some GI discomfort), AM-2201 (very popular in commercial blends, short duration, instant effects, very potent) may actually (proxy)kill you if your endocannabiod system hasnt been around the blocks a couple of times;
unless you are a good eyeballer or have an expensive scale with constant power supply (not these less-than-150usd-battery pieces of rubbish) it is VERY easy to overdose on it; if you havent been smoking pot for the last 5-10 years, an AM-2201-overdose goes something like this:

after 2min: complete shutdown of muscle control. person just drops on the spot, no matter what they are currently doing. person remains on the floor, starts making strange noises

after 2-5min: twitching all over the body while making VERY loud noises like someone deaf who is getting shitkicked; absolutely no visible reaction to whats going on around them. seriously, i pointed what appeared to be an unlocked and loaded gun at people who have had too much am2201, because i thought they where trying to play a practical joke on me; no reaction whatsoever. just stayed on the floor, muscles twitching all over the body, moaning/shouting like they finally lost it permanently. its very frightening to watch and just painful to listen to.
 
after 5-20min: state described above persists and gets slowly weaker. when you can finally get a verbal reaction out of them again, they usually just remember having a great buzz till they lost motor control and wonder what they are doing on the floor and why half the stuff from the kitchen counter is also on the floor (since they swept across it while making a sandwich before hitting the ground)

ending up in such a state can be a difference of .5mg from a nice buzz for some people.

i have witnessed it three times so far. one time i had the opportunity to apply 2 milligrams of clonazepam to the victim. this stopped the twitching muscles very fast and gave back general consciousness after less than 5 minutes.
none of the victims reported to have experienced a particularly unpleasant experience, one actually was like "AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN".
still, if you have a benzodiazepine at hand; just put a solid dose under their tounge, put their head on your lap, keep them from moving around/hurting themselves and be there for them till they "come back". that should prevent the worse, like stupid neighbors calling 911 from all the shouting and serious damage from the muscle spasms or wriggling around on the floor, knocking over and bumping into stuff.  if you dont have benzos ready, its you decide if you let them ride it out or get them medical attention; unless they have less than 10min reaction time, it will most likely be over till they arrive though (unless they hurt themselves bad in their initial fall)

in a nutshell; steer clear from commercial blends unless you can tell for sure whats in them, if you still want to try synthetic noids better get some pure JWH-122 or JWH-250, they are pretty safe and have some of the nicest effects in that area; 250 is the only one that really comes close to weed in all aspects and has mild potency, making it easy to handle, 122 is very long lasting, has reasonable potency and nice effects.

stay safe and have fun
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: Kappacino on May 23, 2012, 01:44 pm
Tbh all of the synthetic CBDs have something dodgy about them. They might get you pretty gone but I dunno if the paranoia is worth it.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: toker420 on May 23, 2012, 02:07 pm
Fuck no bro, stay away from that shit like the plague.  It causes increased heart rate, seizures and al kinds of other shit in the short term, who knows in the long run what this garbage does.  Either smoke weed or don't smoke at all, end of chapter.

Also "the fear" is the worse thing that you can feel, not worth it imo just for a buzz.  And... when you go back to smoking weed, your cb1/cb2 receptors are shot.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: tedka on May 23, 2012, 02:51 pm
i beg to differ.

the whole deal with weed losing effect after you smoked your share of JWH is a complete myth. or most likely was concluded because a bunch of stoners kept smoking pot after their 5g bag of JWH-xxx was empty. and for some reason people keep repeating this information, even though it isnt really the case.

JWH tolerance develops very fast, just as fast as it drops again. at times, i went through 10 grams of JWH-122 mixed with 2g of AM-2201 or JWH-018 a month, for several months in a row. mostly because i couldnt get any decent weed. after a 6 week break from noids and eventually coming across some pretty bad brickweed, i even got high from the brickweed. when i "enhanced" the couple of nice buds i could pick from the brick with the oil i made from the bricks remains i was spending most of my time passed out, occasionally making it to the fridge. id even say my tolerance was lower than when i still was smoking weed more consistently and took a 5-6week break just to start again.
conclusion: the JWH family may create some short term cross tolerance, a pretty strong one even, yet has no influence on your ability to enjoy natural cannabis products on the long term.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: sl1pknot on May 23, 2012, 08:33 pm
Should we stop smoking this stuff completely? Now that I discovered SR I can probably get access to the type of buds I like.

Yes. Why would you smoke it if you can now order some great non-synthetic pot online? Smoke it if you're on probation and dying to get high... It hasn't been around long enough for anyone to know the long term effects. That and the high isn't nearly as good/natural feeling as marijuana.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: spacewasp on May 23, 2012, 09:23 pm
throw that spice shit in the garbage and order yourself some killa buds.  SR is a hundred times better than any local dealer you could find in massachusetts
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: FenderGuitarMan on May 24, 2012, 10:55 am
Thanks to all the advice. We started smoking spice because we didn't have a steady supply of good weed anymore. We both prefer medicinal grade pot much better. So far we've been lucky. We bought one spice that was just too strong and made us anxious/paranoid so we tossed it. Last night I told her to stop smoking it for a while. We have some low grade weed that reminds of me of the Mexican low-end stuff (has seeds, ugly brown color...). I don't enjoy that type of weed at all but I would prefer she smoke that until I get the good stuff in. Spice isn't legal in the state I reside in anymore but you can still get it in neighboring states, One store near us has a very impressive selection similar to the place in Tampa Bay where we discovered it. But none of them seem to state what the active ingredient is. So I am just going to say no to any over-the-counter spice until further information is obtained.

One thing I'll say is I like the short action of some of the spice. Sometimes it's perfect to smoke a little, play guitar for an hour, and then be more or less sober again. Serious buds are a better high but they also last much longer.

If anyone is still reading this thread I'd love suggestions on best buds to buy here. I know "best" is relative per person but I'm sure there are favorites. I'll try searching the posts for ideas. I'll order some ASAP and get the good shit back in our life! Thanks again.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: smokeweed420 on May 25, 2012, 08:43 pm
Ok so i started smoking spice 3 months ago because i was being drug tested. it soon turned into every day use. i pretty much replaced marijuana with it. and had no negative effects until 3 nights ago. i smoked a normal sized bowl and within 5 minutes my heart was beating dangerously fast. it was a very scary experience. within an hour the effects died down and i was fine. i woke up the next day with extreme paranoia, depression, and irregular heart beat. it has now been 7 days and i feel the same. i feel hopeless and extremely depressed. i have always been a happy person. this is terrible. the worst part is the paranoia. i feel like people are trying to kill me, like life is worthless, and im even scared of the dark! this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. i cant sleep, im scared for my life for no good reason and it has made me a totally different person. the other day i cussed out my dad and almost physically attacked him when he asked me if i was ok because i was acting so weird. i am so scared and dont know what to do. has anyone else experienced this?  this is very scary. im extremely psychologically messed up. today i carried a kitchen knife all around my house because i was paranoid that someone else would come in and harm me. I highly recommend that NOBODY smokes spice or synthetic cannabinoids ever. i have realized they are extremely dangerous and no research has been done. at the end of the day the choice is yours but i have never been so scared in my entire life and i owe it all to my stupid decision to smoke spice.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: toker420 on May 29, 2012, 11:28 pm
Ok so i started smoking spice 3 months ago because i was being drug tested. it soon turned into every day use. i pretty much replaced marijuana with it. and had no negative effects until 3 nights ago. i smoked a normal sized bowl and within 5 minutes my heart was beating dangerously fast. it was a very scary experience. within an hour the effects died down and i was fine. i woke up the next day with extreme paranoia, depression, and irregular heart beat. it has now been 7 days and i feel the same. i feel hopeless and extremely depressed. i have always been a happy person. this is terrible. the worst part is the paranoia. i feel like people are trying to kill me, like life is worthless, and im even scared of the dark! this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. i cant sleep, im scared for my life for no good reason and it has made me a totally different person. the other day i cussed out my dad and almost physically attacked him when he asked me if i was ok because i was acting so weird. i am so scared and dont know what to do. has anyone else experienced this?  this is very scary. im extremely psychologically messed up. today i carried a kitchen knife all around my house because i was paranoid that someone else would come in and harm me. I highly recommend that NOBODY smokes spice or synthetic cannabinoids ever. i have realized they are extremely dangerous and no research has been done. at the end of the day the choice is yours but i have never been so scared in my entire life and i owe it all to my stupid decision to smoke spice.

ahh, the fear.  nothing like it.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: 12345 on May 30, 2012, 11:23 am
hello!
i have a lot of experience with indole class synthetic cannabinoids (used more than 120g, mostly jwh-122 and jwh-018) and can give you a  share of my educated opinion.

synthetic noids of the JWH family and its close relatives dont compare too good to weed; they are much more potent, develop tolerance way faster, have a kind of different spectrum of desired effects (more munchies/painkilling/aphrodisiac/sedating effects and less euphoria/possible sociability compared to cannabis) and some of them can produce SEVERE side effects if you arent a veteran stoner. while weed at worst may produce mild to average paranoia, some JWHs average to strong anxiety (and some GI discomfort), AM-2201 (very popular in commercial blends, short duration, instant effects, very potent) may actually (proxy)kill you if your endocannabiod system hasnt been around the blocks a couple of times;
unless you are a good eyeballer or have an expensive scale with constant power supply (not these less-than-150usd-battery pieces of rubbish) it is VERY easy to overdose on it; if you havent been smoking pot for the last 5-10 years, an AM-2201-overdose goes something like this:

after 2min: complete shutdown of muscle control. person just drops on the spot, no matter what they are currently doing. person remains on the floor, starts making strange noises

after 2-5min: twitching all over the body while making VERY loud noises like someone deaf who is getting shitkicked; absolutely no visible reaction to whats going on around them. seriously, i pointed what appeared to be an unlocked and loaded gun at people who have had too much am2201, because i thought they where trying to play a practical joke on me; no reaction whatsoever. just stayed on the floor, muscles twitching all over the body, moaning/shouting like they finally lost it permanently. its very frightening to watch and just painful to listen to.
 
after 5-20min: state described above persists and gets slowly weaker. when you can finally get a verbal reaction out of them again, they usually just remember having a great buzz till they lost motor control and wonder what they are doing on the floor and why half the stuff from the kitchen counter is also on the floor (since they swept across it while making a sandwich before hitting the ground)

ending up in such a state can be a difference of .5mg from a nice buzz for some people.

i have witnessed it three times so far. one time i had the opportunity to apply 2 milligrams of clonazepam to the victim. this stopped the twitching muscles very fast and gave back general consciousness after less than 5 minutes.
none of the victims reported to have experienced a particularly unpleasant experience, one actually was like "AGAIN AGAIN AGAIN".
still, if you have a benzodiazepine at hand; just put a solid dose under their tounge, put their head on your lap, keep them from moving around/hurting themselves and be there for them till they "come back". that should prevent the worse, like stupid neighbors calling 911 from all the shouting and serious damage from the muscle spasms or wriggling around on the floor, knocking over and bumping into stuff.  if you dont have benzos ready, its you decide if you let them ride it out or get them medical attention; unless they have less than 10min reaction time, it will most likely be over till they arrive though (unless they hurt themselves bad in their initial fall)

in a nutshell; steer clear from commercial blends unless you can tell for sure whats in them, if you still want to try synthetic noids better get some pure JWH-122 or JWH-250, they are pretty safe and have some of the nicest effects in that area; 250 is the only one that really comes close to weed in all aspects and has mild potency, making it easy to handle, 122 is very long lasting, has reasonable potency and nice effects.

stay safe and have fun


lol nice post on the OD of 'noids =)


The best ratio I found was (if remember right)  from 10 pieces take 2 x JWH-250, 3 x JWH210 and 5 x JWH122 and then make your blend with 10 to 1 so 10g of maybe damiana and 1g of JWH and this is a strong blend. You will need tolerance for it.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: trollsquad on May 30, 2012, 01:49 pm
I would say stay away from the spice stuff they are always changing it up and you don't know what it is. If you still wanna smoke google the RC that is similar  to your desired high that way you at leastmknow what your getting yourself into. Plus it's way cheaper that way!   

I would have to agree with others in this post though order some weed from a vendor or grow your own!
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: profspudhed on May 30, 2012, 01:58 pm
well heres my take, back when spice was legal here i used to smoke it when i couldnt get my hands on any green, and at that time the gritweed epidemic was still in force so it was regular that i couldnt get any clean weed, so i smoked a fair amount of it and it never caused me a problem. later i decided that rather than buy spice id just go straight to the source and buy a gram of JWH-018, i vaped it a bit and got a bit stoned but decided that wasnt enough and a mate had recently had a grow come down so we took some of the dried out leaf/trim he had and sprinkled the powder in rather liberally, we smoked it and a few mins later my entire lower body started shuddering rapidly, i was just looking at this happening and saying to my mate "look at that, i cant stop it!" i found it rather funny at the time but i guess thats technically the result of too much, so from my experience id say its certainly not that dangerous and i doubt there are any serious health risks

oh and if im right spice contains JWH-018 and JWH-073, it was rumoured to also contain HU-210 but i find that pretty hard to believe
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: strangeman on May 31, 2012, 03:13 pm
I was a almost-daily smoker of synthetic blends for about a year, as was my wife. She had to give them up entirely when she started getting panic attacks from it. For me, the worst thing was the insane tolerance. I basically couldn't get high off of weed after a certain point, wasted a lot  of good bud that way. I'm also fairly sure it worsened some underlying depression and I went through a bit of craving when I quit (I'd rank it below quitting cigarettes). Also, in my experience the tolerance takes longer to diminish than with weed. I'd say it took me about four months to really get back to baseline. Everyone's receptors are different, and by the end I was smoking a couple grams of really strong shit a week, so other people might recover faster.

Synthetics can be fun, but keep in mind not much is known about long-term effects. I'd also be really careful about head-shop/gas-station blends. You can get hotspots if the people who made the blend didn't know what they were doing and OD'ing on a synthetic is no fucking fun. The first time I smoked JWH-018 I spent about half-an-hour listening to my heart in my ears and wondering if I was going to die.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: gtgeorgz on May 31, 2012, 08:45 pm
Ok so i started smoking spice 3 months ago because i was being drug tested. it soon turned into every day use. i pretty much replaced marijuana with it. and had no negative effects until 3 nights ago. i smoked a normal sized bowl and within 5 minutes my heart was beating dangerously fast. it was a very scary experience. within an hour the effects died down and i was fine. i woke up the next day with extreme paranoia, depression, and irregular heart beat. it has now been 7 days and i feel the same. i feel hopeless and extremely depressed. i have always been a happy person. this is terrible. the worst part is the paranoia. i feel like people are trying to kill me, like life is worthless, and im even scared of the dark! this is the worst thing that has ever happened to me. i cant sleep, im scared for my life for no good reason and it has made me a totally different person. the other day i cussed out my dad and almost physically attacked him when he asked me if i was ok because i was acting so weird. i am so scared and dont know what to do. has anyone else experienced this?  this is very scary. im extremely psychologically messed up. today i carried a kitchen knife all around my house because i was paranoid that someone else would come in and harm me. I highly recommend that NOBODY smokes spice or synthetic cannabinoids ever. i have realized they are extremely dangerous and no research has been done. at the end of the day the choice is yours but i have never been so scared in my entire life and i owe it all to my stupid decision to smoke spice.

daaaaaayum that sounds bad maaan! have you tried taking multivitamins and fish oils 1/2 times a day to help your brain out? or some benzo's such as Xanax or Valium when the panic and anxitey become really bad?.. if not these do a good job of calming you down. But dont become dependent on these as they're very, very additive. Remember this isnt going to last forever and i recommend you give weed/boids a miss for a long time as it will probably only make it worse.
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: spacewasp on May 31, 2012, 10:33 pm
yeah man, I had the hunch that this stuff was no good but some of the responses in this thread have blown me away.

so, in answer to the original question, "is it safe(ish)?"  the answer is:

NO!
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: FenderGuitarMan on June 04, 2012, 01:39 pm
Well the good news is I got my first cannabis product from SR this weekend. It was Moroccan hash. I love hash. It's OK, not the best I've had but I love the fact that I was able to get some hash without flying to Amsterdam! So I'm saying goodbye to spice and hello to Silk Road!
Title: Re: Smoking Spice: is it safe(ish)?
Post by: Azoth on July 02, 2012, 09:55 pm
JWH-018 has about the longest use in humans (about 12 years) with no real bad effect attributable to it yet. I have read a few stories of some withdrawal problems but all appear to be the same with THC addiction. Long term studies and actual human scientific studies have not been done yet so truthfully we don't know. There has been some very expensive scientific studies done on JWH-018. These are the kind of studies that are usually done by major drug companies before they venture into human trails. These studies all came back favorable and paves the way for animal then human trials. The rumor is that they are looking into a trans-dermal analgesic patch. There is another rumor that it may help Alzheimer patients. That being said, a small overdose of 018 is not fun. (vomiting/anxiety). of all the 'noids I have tried so far JWH-018 is by far my favorite. The sexual effects of this are absolutely incredible.