Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: psychedelia on June 14, 2012, 08:06 am
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1. is adderall neurotoxic?
2. can its neurotoxicity be reduced by taking supplements, vitamins, etc.
i NEED adderall, but i don't want to damage my brain. Please help. :( :( :( :(
I've tried a lot of drugs, and only amphetamine makes me function as a normal human being, increases my confidence, reduces anxiety, makes me happy, etc. Only amphetamine treats my conditions.
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Before I give any advice to you, please think about what you've said in your post:
i NEED adderall, but i don't want to damage my brain. Please help. :( :( :( :(
I've tried a lot of drugs, and only amphetamine makes me function as a normal human being, increases my confidence, reduces anxiety, makes me happy, etc. Only amphetamine treats my conditions.
I don't mean to be a buzzkill, but with stating that you absolutely need a medication in order to feel normal, that is usually associated with future abuse and dependence. Please do not take more than necessary to perform you tasks (ie, stay within the dosage guidelines). DO NOT overdose (I think this goes without saying, but I said it anyway). Please do not take it unless you absolutely need it (weekends, sitting at home on the couch, ect).
Adderall can be neurotoxic and/or cardiotoxic if taken chronically at high doses.
As long as you're taking the medicine within the dosage range for ADHD (somewhere between 20-40mgs daily) then you should have no problem. Start off slow, within the 10mg range and see how that effects you. You can try adding antioxidants to your diet.
sdesu
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Cannabis has been shown to reduce the neurotoxicity of amph. Some guy put a great post up about meth harm reduction that applies to all amph. I really wish I had read it before I started taking Adderall. Good luck.
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Yes, and yes. Unless you have perfect nutrition and your brain is in rare form, forcing neurons to depolarize more frequently will lead to neurotoxicity (and as an earlier poster noted, cardiotoxicity, which is similar). To begin with, your problems are almost certainly caused by malnutrition/poor diet or exposure to some toxin; using amphetamine is like putting nitrous in a broken car.
That said, there are many things you can do/take to reduce the damage it causes. I have a product called ThinkDeep which has been reported to potentiate the effects of stimulants while preventing the aftereffects; you can try that, or try buying some of the ingredients I use.
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Adderall can be neurotoxic and/or cardiotoxic if taken chronically at high doses.
As long as you're taking the medicine within the dosage range for ADHD (somewhere between 20-40mgs daily) then you should have no problem. Start off slow, within the 10mg range and see how that effects you. You can try adding antioxidants to your diet.
I have read that amphetamine is neurotoxic to apes after four weeks even at therapeutic doses. have you heard of this study? i will pull it up if you want it, but it is this study which causes me to worry.
Yes, and yes. Unless you have perfect nutrition and your brain is in rare form, forcing neurons to depolarize more frequently will lead to neurotoxicity (and as an earlier poster noted, cardiotoxicity, which is similar). To begin with, your problems are almost certainly caused by malnutrition/poor diet or exposure to some toxin; using amphetamine is like putting nitrous in a broken car.
I have excellent nutrition, exercise regularly, etc. My psychological defects are inborn, genetic, and I have had them since early childhood. Only amphetamine has been effective in treating my defects.
How is adderall cardiotoxic?
That said, there are many things you can do/take to reduce the damage it causes. I have a product called ThinkDeep which has been reported to potentiate the effects of stimulants while preventing the aftereffects; you can try that, or try buying some of the ingredients I use.
Interesting, do you know why this product reduces amphetamine neurotoxicity?
Cannabis has been shown to reduce the neurotoxicity of amph. Some guy put a great post up about meth harm reduction that applies to all amph. I really wish I had read it before I started taking Adderall. Good luck.
Thanks, the problem is that cannabis gives me panic attacks. Sometimes i can enjoy it, but taking cannabis is too risky. I also have read that cannabis and adderall are unhealthy in combination.
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Adderall can be neurotoxic and/or cardiotoxic if taken chronically at high doses.
As long as you're taking the medicine within the dosage range for ADHD (somewhere between 20-40mgs daily) then you should have no problem. Start off slow, within the 10mg range and see how that effects you. You can try adding antioxidants to your diet.
I have read that amphetamine is neurotoxic to apes after four weeks even at therapeutic doses. have you heard of this study? i will pull it up if you want it, but it is this study which causes me to worry.
Yes, and yes. Unless you have perfect nutrition and your brain is in rare form, forcing neurons to depolarize more frequently will lead to neurotoxicity (and as an earlier poster noted, cardiotoxicity, which is similar). To begin with, your problems are almost certainly caused by malnutrition/poor diet or exposure to some toxin; using amphetamine is like putting nitrous in a broken car.
I have excellent nutrition, exercise regularly, etc. My psychological defects are inborn, genetic, and I have had them since early childhood. Only amphetamine has been effective in treating my defects.
How is adderall cardiotoxic?
That said, there are many things you can do/take to reduce the damage it causes. I have a product called ThinkDeep which has been reported to potentiate the effects of stimulants while preventing the aftereffects; you can try that, or try buying some of the ingredients I use.
Interesting, do you know why this product reduces amphetamine neurotoxicity?
Cannabis has been shown to reduce the neurotoxicity of amph. Some guy put a great post up about meth harm reduction that applies to all amph. I really wish I had read it before I started taking Adderall. Good luck.
Thanks, the problem is that cannabis gives me panic attacks. Sometimes i can enjoy it, but taking cannabis is too risky. I also have read that cannabis and adderall are unhealthy in combination.
Amphetamine can be cardiotoxic in the same way that it is neurotoxic; it stimulates cardiac muscle excessively and causes an influx of calcium that can result in the death of heart muscle. I'm not sure how much of a problem this typically is, but it's theoretically possible.
You say you have excellent nutrition, what does that mean? Do you eat mainly raw food? And take nutritional supplements? And avoid polyunsaturated fats and grains?
My product attenuates neurotoxicity by improving your brain's ability to produce energy, both through glycolysis (Sulbutiamine, Na-R-ALA), and oxidative respiration (ALCAR, Picamilon (B3), Piracetam), improving antioxidant state (OPCs, Bacopa, Rhodiola, Na-R-ALA), optimizing metabolism (P-5-P, ALCAR, CDP-Choline, TMG, NALT) decreasing capillary leakiness (OPCs, Ginkgo), and improving mental endurance and cognitive ability (Bacopa, Rhodiola, Eleuthero, Piracetam, Aniracetam, NooPept).
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I think I've heard that it's a lot less neurotoxic than M-amp. But then again I've also heard that the two drugs are a lot more similar than most people realise.
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I think I've heard that it's a lot less neurotoxic than M-amp. But then again I've also heard that the two drugs are a lot more similar than most people realise.
yep.
Here's an article in regards to Meth-induced DNT from back in 06.
(It seems like forever ago..)
http://www.aapsj.org/view.asp?art=aapsj080248
sdesu
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very interesting paper, good summary. thanks for posting. unfortunately i didnt see anything really comparing to d-amp
one thing about mdma and meth is a reactive oxygen species produced that may be responsible for some of the damage as well, which is not produced by the metabolites of amphetamine if i remember correctly.
plus with meth it has higher lipid solubility so more gets to the CNS, where it has an increased effect as well compared to d-amp. and compared to d-amp, adderall is all cut with sugar and watered down already.
even after wayy too much mdma wayy too frequently for wayy too long, which was certainly more neurotoxic than years of amp, this brain still manages to score above average. math is slightly more difficult, and who knows whats ahead but shulgins ticked relaibly for a long while. opioids are neurotoxic through immunological downstream inflammatory and apoptosis induction... dont get me started on EtOH. smoking is a major risk factor for alz, yet thc is actually one of the most non-neurotoxic drugs and actually protective, slowing the progression of alz disease... oh and HIV is one the most frighteningly neurotoxic things ive read about.
the damage may not actually be very substantial in most cases to where it actually causes a noticeable effect esp like with amp which we put little kids on, not like its freaking mptp which just completely killed the substantia nigra and caused parkinsons essentially... and death. now that is "neurotoxic" lol
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Adderall is most certianly neurotoxic. Which is why I prefer 4-FMA to adderall as it has a similar effect but is not as neurotoxic due to a lack of harmful metabolites (A Fluro bond is so strong that it will simply not break down in the body and it will be excreted in its original form).
MAO-Bs such as Deprenyl and Rasgelline, Magnesium, Memantine, and a low dose of DXM before you go to sleep greatly reduces tolerance and protects from neurotoxicity.
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Using drugs for confidence is a slippery slope.
I fell into that trap. Speed gave me the edge during a bad time. Allowed me to be 'confident' but only as long as I was high!
So I stopped using and got confidence the only way you can get it. Mix with people. Do things with people. Help people! But make sure your not taken for a ride by anyone!
Confidence, we all know some drugs boost that - but if perchance you needed amphetamine to chat a women up - what happens if you win her over? Do you tell her your an addict or hide it?
Anyhow - all amphetamines can do some damage to the brain and heart. MDMA is an amphetamine also!
I know some people have ADD and that in turn might lead to lack of confidence due to not being able to articulate yourself. Amphetamines in that case seem to help some. Maybe we ought to leave the Adderall for the ones who need it! Hard drug to get. I have tried. I guess it would be good and give me tons of confidence but I don't struggle with confidence and have not done so since giving up binging on amphetamines!
Good luck.
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1. Yes
2. No
MDMA is not an amphetamine - both are phenethylamines, MDMA works on serotonin, and amphetamines on norepinephrine
Meth-amphetamine is dangerous because it is extremely potent, and the manufacturing process makes a very crude drug - its effects large effect on dopamine make it neurotoxic. Dopamine is critical for learning, thats why people say adderall helps them study - its the drugs effect on norepinephrine that make it cardio and neuro toxic.
Drugs can make you happy without killing your brain and your long term ability to think - that's why MDMA is such as awesome drug. As this Harvard study says; there is no long term cognitive or neurotoxic side effects of MDMA use.
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/j.1360-0443.2010.03252.x/abstract
http://www.addictionjournal.org/viewpressrelease.asp?pr=147
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BTW you don't NEED adderall. I learned that the hard way. Try taking nootropic cognitive enhancers like Modafinil instead.
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winterjacket you couldnt be more wrong. literally every single statement fraught with error and misleading statements.
do you even know what mdma stands for? methylenedioxymethAMPHETAMINE. it is indeed a methylated amphetamine, and technically i believe not even a phenethylamine because of the methylation which makes it an amp by definition, even though it has the PEA backbone...
totally incorrect about the differences in mechanism of action between mdma and d-amp, because mdma has strong serotonergic, dopamingeric, adrenergic components of action. d-amp impacts both dopaminergic and adrenergic (thereby serotonergic downstream to some extent as well),
dopamine is actually more associated with motivation than anything, and norep is responsible for attention at the simplest level... not responsible at all for the toxicity, which is related to the stress from reversing the vesicular transporter and depleting the neurotransmitter stores as well as glutamatergic excitotoxicity, reactive metabolic intermediates, exaggerated intracellular calcium increases, dysregulated bcl-2 signaling promoting apoptosis, but not due to actions of norep...
its actually mainly glutamate that contributes most to memory and learning... although every monoamine and nearly all other signaling systems are required working together to actually "learn" anything, so dopamine certainly plays a role in reinforcement of learning
you cant even read that article, just the abstract which mentions absolutely nothing about neurotoxicity. it says "cognitive impairment" and was done with a nearly non-significantly small sample size. neurotoxicity and neuropsychological cognitive function assessments are not the same thing. even people with severe brain damage can in rare instances have little to no cognitive impairment... one paper of cognitive test can in no way nullify the hundreds of papers on the molecular basis on mdma toxicity. "neurotoxicity" refers to neuron loss, synaptic changes, receptor density or mRNA, decreased proliferation, evidence of stress and toxic effects such as exaggerated Ca2+ release, reactive oxygen species, or inflammatory mediators and apoptosis leading to degeneration... not the fact that someone who took mdma demonstrated more impulsivity. even the article you cited said mdma was not without serious risk as you try to suggest... dont come to the forums and attempt to make a case about what you clearly dont understand. that was the most hilarious post ive read in a long time just because of how much misinformation you were attempting to get other people to believe as well.
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d-amphetamine neurotoxicity is actually based largely on dopamine, while meth is partly on serotonin. lol. were you making that shit up? some of the cardiotoxicity may involve adrenergic components but is actually due to calcium signaling and ROS i believe
the brain has numerous mechanisms where moderate use of d-amp is not going to produce significant damage, everything is self regulating and mech are in place to deal with stressors. the most important thing will be to take vitamins and stay healthy, not to binge with excessive doses to avoid stressing your heart by revving it up and going days without sleeping and eating which is kinda obvious.
alcohol is way more toxic all around and people 200 years ago drank it from birth to death cause there was no potable water and still pulled technologically advanced society out their ass
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d-amphetamine neurotoxicity is actually based largely on dopamine, while meth is partly on serotonin. lol. were you making that shit up? some of the cardiotoxicity may involve adrenergic components but is actually due to calcium signaling and ROS i believe
the brain has numerous mechanisms where moderate use of d-amp is not going to produce significant damage, everything is self regulating and mech are in place to deal with stressors. the most important thing will be to take vitamins and stay healthy, not to binge with excessive doses to avoid stressing your heart by revving it up and going days without sleeping and eating which is kinda obvious.
alcohol is way more toxic all around and people 200 years ago drank it from birth to death cause there was no potable water and still pulled technologically advanced society out their ass
Amphetamine isn't something to fuck with. I took dexedrine recreationally and it really fucked up my life. I thought it was all fun and games...I used to even smoke dexedrine. Cmon' lets not go around saying "your body can deal with it", just because it won't kill you doesn't mean it won't completely fuck you up.
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winterjacket you couldnt be more wrong.
I wasn't trying to spread misinformation just my opinion.
My opinion on Dopamine is that it's action on D3 receptors in the nucleus accumbens in shifting from tonic phasic firing "provides the motivation to pursue naturally rewarding experiences such as education.." Stahl's Illustrated Antipsychotics: p. 71 -- you can find that book at most medical book stores.
And you need access to a scholarly database or pay for the article to read it, and your right most MDMA isn't safe - because it's made in clandestine labs, that don't ensure purity.
And at least I attempt to provide references.
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winterjacket you couldnt be more wrong.
I wasn't trying to spread misinformation just my opinion.
My opinion on Dopamine is that it's action on D3 receptors in the nucleus accumbens in shifting from tonic phasic firing "provides the motivation to pursue naturally rewarding experiences such as education.." Stahl's Illustrated Antipsychotics: p. 71 -- you can find that book at most medical book stores.
And you need access to a scholarly database or pay for the article to read it, and your right most MDMA isn't safe - because it's made in clandestine labs, that don't ensure purity.
And at least I attempt to provide references.
Your wrong, MDMA it self isn't truely "safe" in any sense. Sure it won't hurt you if you take no more than once a month (or even once every other month) but to say that only tainted MDMA can be harmful is just plain wrong. In fact pure MDMA is more likely to really fuck you and give you one hell of a week long hang over if you over do it than any of the other RCs on the market. You obviously have never experienced suicide tuesdays first hand. I had some pure MDMA that I got from tony when he first started and it was some amazing MDMA. However, I made the horrible mistake of taking a .2 and felt so miserable the next day. Moderation is definitely key but lets not start saying that MDMA is safer than other Amphetamines...because it isn't. Taking MDMA once a month is safer than abusing Adderall on a daily basis but it is by no means safe to roll every single week.
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d-amphetamine neurotoxicity is actually based largely on dopamine, while meth is partly on serotonin. lol. were you making that shit up? some of the cardiotoxicity may involve adrenergic components but is actually due to calcium signaling and ROS i believe
the brain has numerous mechanisms where moderate use of d-amp is not going to produce significant damage, everything is self regulating and mech are in place to deal with stressors. the most important thing will be to take vitamins and stay healthy, not to binge with excessive doses to avoid stressing your heart by revving it up and going days without sleeping and eating which is kinda obvious.
alcohol is way more toxic all around and people 200 years ago drank it from birth to death cause there was no potable water and still pulled technologically advanced society out their ass
Amphetamine isn't something to fuck with. I took dexedrine recreationally and it really fucked up my life. I thought it was all fun and games...I used to even smoke dexedrine. Cmon' lets not go around saying "your body can deal with it", just because it won't kill you doesn't mean it won't completely fuck you up.
you kinda make it sound like i said to go abuse speed... i said it was neurotoxic and "moderate doses" as in a low dose prescription, not even every day, not recreational use where you are using excessive amounts for the high, which is actually what i was trying to say not to do. i was trying to point out just because something can be moderately cytotoxic, which alcohol is extremely, and still the childrens brains didnt atrophy and still developed correctly, livers didnt fail by the age of twenty. the body is constantly stressed and our cells evolved mechanisms to protect themselves, so using adderall in low doses on days you need to study isnt going to have significant effect and fry your dopaminergic system... i dont actually know too much outside the CNS so cardiotoxicity is not really what i am referring to, something like 50 out of 1,000,000 users die just from cardiac effects of amp
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d-amphetamine neurotoxicity is actually based largely on dopamine, while meth is partly on serotonin. lol. were you making that shit up? some of the cardiotoxicity may involve adrenergic components but is actually due to calcium signaling and ROS i believe
the brain has numerous mechanisms where moderate use of d-amp is not going to produce significant damage, everything is self regulating and mech are in place to deal with stressors. the most important thing will be to take vitamins and stay healthy, not to binge with excessive doses to avoid stressing your heart by revving it up and going days without sleeping and eating which is kinda obvious.
alcohol is way more toxic all around and people 200 years ago drank it from birth to death cause there was no potable water and still pulled technologically advanced society out their ass
Amphetamine isn't something to fuck with. I took dexedrine recreationally and it really fucked up my life. I thought it was all fun and games...I used to even smoke dexedrine. Cmon' lets not go around saying "your body can deal with it", just because it won't kill you doesn't mean it won't completely fuck you up.
you kinda make it sound like i said to go abuse speed... i said it was neurotoxic and "moderate doses" as in a low dose prescription, not even every day, not recreational use where you are using excessive amounts for the high, which is actually what i was trying to say not to do. i was trying to point out just because something can be moderately cytotoxic, which alcohol is extremely, and still the childrens brains didnt atrophy and still developed correctly, livers didnt fail by the age of twenty. the body is constantly stressed and our cells evolved mechanisms to protect themselves, so using adderall in low doses on days you need to study isnt going to have significant effect and fry your dopaminergic system... i dont actually know too much outside the CNS so cardiotoxicity is not really what i am referring to, something like 50 out of 1,000,000 users die just from cardiac effects of amp
Even taking a normal daily dose will fuck your body up over the long term. It fries your adrenal and dopaminergic systems. I would know because I took it throughout middle and high school until I quit it cold turkey during college.
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d-amphetamine neurotoxicity is actually based largely on dopamine, while meth is partly on serotonin. lol. were you making that shit up? some of the cardiotoxicity may involve adrenergic components but is actually due to calcium signaling and ROS i believe
the brain has numerous mechanisms where moderate use of d-amp is not going to produce significant damage, everything is self regulating and mech are in place to deal with stressors. the most important thing will be to take vitamins and stay healthy, not to binge with excessive doses to avoid stressing your heart by revving it up and going days without sleeping and eating which is kinda obvious.
alcohol is way more toxic all around and people 200 years ago drank it from birth to death cause there was no potable water and still pulled technologically advanced society out their ass
Amphetamine isn't something to fuck with. I took dexedrine recreationally and it really fucked up my life. I thought it was all fun and games...I used to even smoke dexedrine. Cmon' lets not go around saying "your body can deal with it", just because it won't kill you doesn't mean it won't completely fuck you up.
you kinda make it sound like i said to go abuse speed... i said it was neurotoxic and "moderate doses" as in a low dose prescription, not even every day, not recreational use where you are using excessive amounts for the high, which is actually what i was trying to say not to do. i was trying to point out just because something can be moderately cytotoxic, which alcohol is extremely, and still the childrens brains didnt atrophy and still developed correctly, livers didnt fail by the age of twenty. the body is constantly stressed and our cells evolved mechanisms to protect themselves, so using adderall in low doses on days you need to study isnt going to have significant effect and fry your dopaminergic system... i dont actually know too much outside the CNS so cardiotoxicity is not really what i am referring to, something like 50 out of 1,000,000 users die just from cardiac effects of amp
Even taking a normal daily dose will fuck your body up over the long term. It fries your adrenal and dopaminergic systems. I would know because I took it throughout middle and high school until I quit it cold turkey during college.
How much did you take?
I've only been taking 5mg - 15mg, and not every day.