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Discussion => Shipping => Topic started by: novocaine on August 15, 2011, 10:19 pm

Title: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: novocaine on August 15, 2011, 10:19 pm
Fingerprints....they are inconvenient and over rated.
How do you deal with them?

Personally I get my pet chimp to pack my parcels. But the problem is not so much the packing as getting your parcels into the post box without raising suspicion by wearing gloves or getting your chimp to put it in the box for you.

Couple of ideas I have seen floating around is to use a hard wearing epoxy based glue on your fingertips. Im willing to give this a go.

Scrape your prints off daily using a razorblade. Can take months to obscure your print.

Fondle a pineapple everyday. Can also take months to take effect

Lay brick all day. Chances are you do not have prints

DO NOT USE LATEX GLOVES. Apparently word on the street says this will transfer your print.

Any other tried and tested methods or myths busted?
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: pcgamer02 on August 16, 2011, 01:02 am
Fairly easy I would think. Just use gloves, havnt heard the latex thing. Could use leather gloves.
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: chronicpain on August 16, 2011, 02:07 am
But isnt it the oil on  your fingers that actually makes the print? If they are covered, how would the oil get through the glove? I can see maybe those lunch lady gloves, they are basically baggies over their hands, but still, all you should need is a barrier between your fingers and the item you are touching. Maybe my thinking is flawed, but I would think that a latex glove should be just fine. unless, the oils from  your hand can get through it.
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: TheUsualSuspect on August 16, 2011, 04:19 am
But isnt it the oil on  your fingers that actually makes the print? If they are covered, how would the oil get through the glove? I can see maybe those lunch lady gloves, they are basically baggies over their hands, but still, all you should need is a barrier between your fingers and the item you are touching. Maybe my thinking is flawed, but I would think that a latex glove should be just fine. unless, the oils from  your hand can get through it.


I agree with chron. An easy way to test if this is BS or not: put on a latex (or vinly or whatever you use) and the take a piece of clear tape and "fingerprint" yourself as if you were being booked into county (minus the ink, of course.)
Carefully peel away your gloved finger from the tape and then carefully examine the mark made on the tape. Does it even resemble a clean fingerprint? Not as far as I can tell with my results. But then again I'm no forensic scientist. Thinking along those lines though, I would tend to think it is BS. If it were true then every time someone collects or handles evidence wearing latex gloves they would be contaminating it, making it basically useless (for LE purposes anyway.)
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: novocaine on August 16, 2011, 06:39 am
something to do with the powder on the latex glove that transfers your print...could be worth checking it out. Im going to experiment.

As for wearing gloves to the post office to pick up supplies or drop off into the box is a no go unless your in a cold climate. Gloves just dont get worn at all where Im at.

Cleaning off your oily prints with some alcohol based cleaner will destroy most satchels and packages. Or just giving it a wipe over with a nappy is time consuming and risky. You still have to get them into a box without fingerprints and without standing out wearing a glove.

One can deliver late at night but where I am, express pickup is 5pm so anytime after that it sits in the box the whole next day which would be ok if it wasn't 40C

So what do you do? Am I missing something:)
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: 3Jane on August 16, 2011, 07:24 am
A single pair of standard latex gloves isn't good enough, you could use two pairs but your hands will get really hot, I don't recommend it! I suggest medical/law enforcement nitrile gloves (test them with piece of tape to make sure they don't leave prints), they'll only leave imprints of the stipple pattern (which could potentially be a risk, so buy them locally with cash from somewhere without cameras and alternate brands/stores). They also fit nice and tight which is a big plus if you have small hands, using two pairs of latex gloves I would often have the loose latex get in the way, total pain in the butt. So use nitrile, crime scene investigator and 3Jane approved. :)

As far as dropping off goes macdrizzle on OVDB has the right idea:
"for dropping off, put the stamped packs all in a LARGE envelope, those brown ones are good. stick the envelope half way into the blue collection box opening with the envelope's open end down in there. Keep hold and shake. Stamped packs fall out of your large envelope into the blue bin. Don't drop the large container envelope in the bin. Then pull it out and put it back in bag / backpack / car / whatevs and save it for next time. This way you don't look shady as fuck walking up to a mail collection box wearing gloves and you don't have irritating liquid bandage crap on your hands."

http://g7pz322wcy6jnn4r.onion/opensource/ovdb/ac/viewtopic.php?id=632
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: novocaine on August 16, 2011, 07:58 am
cool. Thank you. some good info

lol sometimes my thinking is so complex I miss the simple things.


Here is a study conducted using different type gloves with fingerprints transferring through using contaminated vinyl/ latex gloves
http://www.crime-scene-investigator.net/GlovesAtCrimeScene.html


Concerns When Using Examination
Gloves at the Crime Scene

From the Journal of Forensic Identification
Vol. 56, No. 2, March/April 2006*

David A. Lounsbury
L. Frank Thompson
Florida Gulf Coast University
Fort Myers, FL

Abstract: Universal precautions that are used by forensic personnel at crime scenes are necessary to protect the crime scene processors from chemical and biological hazards. These precautions also serve to ensure that the scene is not contaminated by actions of the crime scene examiners. A particular type of glove that is routinely used in crime scene processing does protect against hazards but is not effective against scene contamination.
Introduction

Most individuals who are involved in the processing and reconstruction of crime scenes and associated evidence understand the absolute necessity to protect their skin from coming in contact with items of physical evidence. Additionally, crime scene personnel must not contaminate evidence that is being recovered during the collection and examination phases of the crime scene processing. For these reasons, gloves must be worn. However, many crime scene technicians and investigators have the misconception that gloves will prevent fingerprints from being left on handled items. Saferstein recommends that crime scene processors wear two pairs of latex gloves as a minimum [1]. This doubles the protection of both biohazard transmission and evidence contamination. Gerberth states that �approved disposable gloves� should be used at the crime scene [2]. Lee recommends latex gloves for the handling of evidence that is located in crime scenes [3]. Although latex gloves are often referred to in crime scene manuals and texts, some authors explain that liquid barrier rubber gloves are preferred [4].

Although the majority of texts recommend the use of latex gloves at the crime scene, latex presents a medical problem for some. Latex allergies are a danger to an increasing number of individuals [5]. This requires the selection of other gloves, most of which come from the medical profession. Various nitrile, latex, and vinyl examination gloves are popular in most crime scene processing units.
Research

In July 2004, 28 criminal forensic studies students from Florida Gulf Coast University participated in an experiment involving medical examination gloves and their ability to inadvertently contaminate evidence at a crime scene. The study was approved by the University Institutional Review Board. Medical verification was established to determine that none of the participants were allergic to any of the glove materials in the study. Allergies to latex were of particular concern.
Procedure

The participants were divided into four groups of seven each. Each group wore one of four types of popular examination gloves that are used by local crime scene units in South Florida (Fisherbrand Nitrile Examination Glove Catalog # 19-050-221D, Kimberly-Clark Safeskin Purple Nitrile Glove #50603, Oak Laboratory Handies Vinyl Gloves Item # 96-282, Ultra One Microf lex Powder-Free Latex Gloves #UL-315-L).

The authors (wearing cotton gloves) placed a single glove on the right hand of each participant, and then a paper bag was placed over the gloved hand. (The bag prevented the individual from contaminating the outside surface of the glove during the experiment.)

The gloves were worn continuously for one hour. At the end of one hour, the paper bags were removed and, without touching anything else, the individuals attempted to create fingerprints by pressing their fingers onto new white fingerprint lift cards. The pressure on the cards was a moderate touch, commensurate with the amount of pressure required to pick the cards up from the table. While wearing cotton gloves, the authors handled the target fingerprint lift cards by the edges to prevent contamination during the study.

The attempts to create latent prints continued every 15 minutes thereafter for two hours. The attempts were made by each participant, following the procedure of removing the paper bags from the gloved right hands. Each time, the hand was not allowed to contact anything other than the target fingerprint lift card. At the end of two hours and after the final attempt to place latent prints on the target cards, the participants were asked to run their gloved hand through their hair, and another attempt was made to place prints on the target fingerprint lift cards. All of the target cards (white) were processed using bichromatic gray magnetic fingerprint powder and a magnetic brush applicator.
Results

No impressions of any fingerprint patterns could be detected on any of the target cards that were tested during the first and second hours. Following the contamination of the gloves at the two-hour mark, all of them produced finger outlines (Table 1). Both Fisherbrand and Kimberly-Clark nitrile gloves produced the stipple pattern associated with their manufacture. The latex gloves only depicted the material folds and a smooth pattern outline with no ridge detail. The vinyl gloves showed identifiable detail each time. A close examination of the developed vinyl glove prints showed material folds, but this may be mistaken for tape folds during lifts.

Glove type    # of
participants    During the
first hour    During the
second hour    Intentional
contamination
targets
Fisherbrand
Nitrile
   
7
   
no friction ridge or stiple
pattern impressions
   
no friction ridge or stiple
pattern impressions
   
7 stiple pattern
impressions
Kimberly-
Clark Nitrile
   
7
   
no friction ridge or stiple
pattern impressions
   
no friction ridge or stiple
pattern impressions
   
7 stiple pattern
impressions
Oak
Laboratories
Vinyl
   
7
   
7 target cards with
smooth impressions of
fingers, no friction ridge
detail
   
7 target cards with
smooth impressions of
fingers, no friction ridge
detail
   
7 friction ridge
impressions
Ultra-One
Latex
   
7
   
no discernible pattern
   
no discernible pattern
   
7 smooth
finger outlines,
no friction
ridges

Table 1
Results of test to determine whether a glove can leave impressions.

On the target cards on which the Fisherbrand and Kimberly-Clark nitrile gloves were pressed, the stipple patterns of the glove were detected, but only after the intentional contamination (Figure 1). Nitrile gloves for both brands consistently left only stipple markings after contamination with the sebaceous secretions. Although this study did not address the issue of possibly identifying the individual glove through the stipple pattern, the manufacturing process may leave enough microscopic detail to individualize a glove. This is speculation that is based on similar findings on objects such as tire molds [6] in which mold defects and alignments cause individual characteristics in tire production. Research would have to include identifying the glove manufacturing process in detail to determine whether the stippling is random or from a fixed mold. For further study, it would be of some importance to determine whether the glove patterns on any stippled glove could be identified as having individual characteristics. Impressions made by the Ultra-One latex gloves showed no discernible pattern of either friction ridges or manufacturing markings. In the case of the nitrile and latex gloves, it was apparent that the impressions were from fingers, but no fingerprint ridge detail was observed. The Oak Laboratory vinyl gloves left smooth impressions on all seven target cards prior to contamination. No ridge detail could be observed.

The impressions that were made from the contaminated vinyl gloves left clear ridge detail on the target cards from all seven participants. The processed cards all showed pattern impressions (Figure 2). The target cards contained impressions of the vinyl folds and defects produced by the glove material along with friction ridge impressions from the fingerprints of the respective participants.
Conclusion

Vinyl gloves showed no signs of transference of palmar secretions through the barrier of the glove, because gloves that had not been contaminated on the outside with sebaceous secretions could not leave friction ridge impressions. However, when the outside surface became contaminated with a transference material, the glove membrane was sufficiently thin and of a density that allowed the glove to transfer the friction ridge shapes to the substrate. Although the glove may provide adequate protection from chemical or biological hazards for personnel, it is insufficient to protect the crime scene from friction ridge contamination.

Glove protection protocols to avoid latent print contamination is critical. Either a double glove should be worn or cotton gloves should be worn underneath the vinyl glove shell. The double glove method may be less comfortable because of the amount of heat it generates. Both the double glove method and the wearing of a cotton under-glove proved effective in keeping inadvertent latent prints by the crime scene personnel from contaminating the crime scene. Single glove wear, and in particular, vinyl examination glove wear, could significantly contaminate fingerprint evidence that is handled by crime scene processors at the scene.



Figure 1
Stipple pattern from a nitrile examination glove.
No discernable fingerprint ridges.



Figure 2
Developed latent fingerprint deposited through
contaminated examination glove (vinyl).
(Latex examination gloves produced similar examples.)

      For further information, please contact:

            David A. Lounsbury
            Director, Institute for Forensic Excellence
            Florida Gulf Coast University
            10501 FGCU Boulevard South
            Fort Myers, FL 33965-6565
            (239) 590-7831
            dlounsbu@fgcu.edu

References

         1. Saferstein, R. Criminalistics: An Introduction to Forensic Science, 7th ed.; Prentice Hall: Upper Saddle River, NJ, 2001; p 49.
         2. Geberth, V. J. The Homicide Crime Scene Search. In Practical Homicide Investigation: Tactics, Procedures, and Forensic Techniques, 3rd ed.; Geberth, V. J., Ed.; CRC Press: Boca Raton, FL, 1996; p 203.
         3. Lee, H. C.; Palmbach, T.; Miller, M. T. Henry Lee�s Crime Scene Handbook; Academic Press: San Diego, 2001; pp 71-72.
         4. Gardner, R. M. Practical Crime Scene Processing and Investigation; CRC Press: Boca Raton, FL, 2005; p 375.
         5. Chowdhu r y, M. M. Epidemiology of Latex Allery. In Latex Intolerance: Basic Science, Epidemiology, Clinical Management; Chowdhury, M. M.; Mailbach, H. I., Eds.; CRC Press: Boca Raton, FL, 2005; pp 6-31.
         6. McDonald, P. Tire Imprint Evidence; CRC Press: Boca Raton, FL, 1993; pp 78-79.


*From the Journal of Forensic Identification Vol. 56, No. 2, March/April 2006
The Official Publication of the International Association for Identification
"Reproduction of the Journal of Forensic Identification, in whole or in part, for noncommercial, educational use is permitted provided proper citation of the source is noted. Reproduction for any other use is prohibited without prior written permission. Requests for permission may be addressed to the editor (of the Journal of Forensic Identification -- jfieditor@theiai.org)."

Article posted: February 25, 2008
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: Raffael on August 16, 2011, 02:08 pm
What about DNA evidence?
It'd be really hard to avoid it.
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: CREAM on August 16, 2011, 08:05 pm
What about DNA evidence?
It'd be really hard to avoid it.

Elaborate.. like hair? dead skin? saliva?

I kinda doubt LE would go as far as trying to get a DNA match on some pills; especially since not everyone's DNA is registered somewhere (I hope not x_x)

Nonetheless, always make to shake out your mailers (try not to blow with your mouth as small amounts of saliva will come out without you knowing); if you're using tape or anything sticky make sure your skin doesn't touch it and make sure to use a clean strip (remove a whole 6 inches or whatever from the roll)

Any other suggestions?
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: chronicpain on August 16, 2011, 10:26 pm
I've done multiple non scientific studies regarding the latex gloves. I've always wondered if sweat could get through the glove or heck, any type of substance that could get on the glove and contaminate the glove and then transfer the ridges on the product.

First off, if one glove is put on and I put tape over my fingers, no discernable print is found. all thats there is smudged sticky material. Even after using it for 1/2 an hour, I got the same results. But according to the above study, they subjects where ok using one pair of latex gloves for 2 hours. it seemed after the 2 hour mark of working/sweating, etc is what compromises the glove. So, it sounds like the best way to go is to either use those big ass kitchen gloves or double glove latex or use cotton gloves then the latex on top of the cotton. I think the last one is probably the best way to go, just because using those thick gloves is hard to work with small items. using the double latex is kind of difficult but the cotton glove/latex glove gives good protection and its not so hard to open something, easier to work with...

Great thread. I know I learned something.
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: btcfreedom on August 16, 2011, 11:04 pm
i like to watch se7en and shear off my fingertips with a straight razor every time a transaction comes through  ;D

honestly - true security is taping the tips and using the right grade (thick mil.) gloves, CP has got that right.

b
Title: Re: The Fingerprint Thread
Post by: Mister Dank on August 17, 2011, 05:10 pm
I've had cops search for prints at a place I was at with gloves on - they didn't find anything.