Silk Road forums

Discussion => Legal => Topic started by: buckaroo0987 on September 13, 2013, 04:37 am

Title: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 13, 2013, 04:37 am
I read a while back that the Swiss are now releasing information on people who were putting their money there to avoid taxes.

This seams to be a trend. Lots of countries are starting to cooperate with the US.

Are there still countries out there (besides China) that doesn't give up the names of business owners or account holders?
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: fuckmadagascar on September 13, 2013, 07:10 am
I don't know how many are still holding out, but there's a lot going on in the news lately about countries cooperating with US tax evasion resistance, so you can find out who has given in.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: weok83r8fd on September 17, 2013, 03:16 pm
Uruguay is supposed to be one of the last good ones.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: PinnacleGoods on September 17, 2013, 04:35 pm
Lots of places.. Where are you cleaning money for / trying to hide money from?

SE Asia has many good options, money is easily hidden many ways there, hiding funds is practiced locally by most big fish regardless of where their money comes from. hiding funds has been happening forever in many places in the area, and is not frowned on at all, but is expected as evidence of responsible money management.

be ready to pay more than locals for these kinds of services, unless you make a friend.  always use caution.

I don't like the places that try to act as a 'tax haven' because they seem to be obvious targets for the tax collectors.  And they know they have you by the short and curlies regarding your funds.

Compare this to a gold weight demoninated savings account with a Kuwaiti bank in Malaysia (clearnet warning) [( http://www.kfh.com.my/kfhmb/v2/contentView.do?contentTypeId=3000&displayPage=%2Fver2%2Fcontent%2Fstandard.jsp&channelPath=%2Fver2%2Fv2_Navigation%2FConsumer+Banking%2FDeposits&programName=04_Gold+Account&tabId=1&cntName=01-GoldAccount-i )] and you'll see that such an account would be exceedingly unlikely to draw any attention.

The games around hiding ownership of a corporation are also alive and well in SE Asia.  Go explore for yourself, or message me for details!
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: DrMDA on September 17, 2013, 11:29 pm
Tax havens are dead if you are an American. International banks don't want a damn thing to do with Americans anymore and will not open an account for you. Tax havens are really only needed if you are looking at millions of dollars though. Thousands or hundreds of thousands is too small to go through all that bs in my opinion. Just spend it. If you are really set on it I'd probably look into Hong Kong or Dubai.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Anonyguy on September 18, 2013, 07:56 pm
Every country says they cooperate with the US but the degree of cooperation isn't the same everywhere, either due to lack of political will or due to lack of capacity.

Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: PinnacleGoods on September 18, 2013, 08:19 pm
FATF blacklist countries and territories don't necessarily say they will cooperate with the US - the Financial Action Task Force regularly updates their list of Non-Cooperative Countries or Territories.

There are levels of blacklisting, as explained by wikipedia like this:

June 2013
A total of 14 countries were identified as jurisdictions that have strategic deficiencies that pose a risk to the international financial system.

Jurisdictions subject to a FATF call on its members and other jurisdictions to apply counter-measures to protect the international financial system from the on-going and substantial money laundering and terrorist financing (ML/TF) risks emanating from the jurisdictions

 * Iran
 * North Korea


Jurisdictions with strategic AML/CFT deficiencies that have not made sufficient progress in addressing the deficiencies or have not committed to an action plan developed with the FATF to address the deficiencies. The FATF calls on its members to consider the risks arising from the deficiencies associated with each jurisdiction

 *  Ecuador
 * Ethiopia
 * Indonesia
 * Kenya
 * Myanmar
 * Pakistan
 * São Tomé and Príncipe
 * Syria
 * Tanzania
 * Turkey
 * Vietnam
 * Yemen

And 2012 list:

Counter-measures apply to these countries: high-risk and non-cooperative
 * Iran
 * North Korea

Countries not committed to an action plan: high-risk and non-cooperative
 * Bolivia
 * Cuba
 * Ethiopia
 * Ghana
 * Indonesia
 * Kenya
 * Myanmar
 * Nigeria
 * São Tomé and Príncipe
 * Sri Lanka
 * Syria
 * Tanzania
 * Thailand
 * Turkey

Then the 'we are trying, but...' lists, updated in 2012 as well:

Countries committed and addressing AML/CFT deficiencies
 * Algeria
 * Angola
 * Antigua and Barbuda
 * Argentina
 * Bangladesh
 * Brunei Darussalam
 * Cambodia
 * Kyrgyzstan
 * Mongolia
 * Morocco
 * Namibia
 * Nepal
 * Nicaragua
 * Sudan
 * Tajikistan
 * Trinidad and Tobago
 * Turkmenistan
 * Venezuela
 * Zimbabwe

Countries committed, but not making sufficient progress
 * Ecuador
 * Philippines
 * Vietnam
 * Yemen

Problem is, if you don't have some kind of protection or willingness to pay the majority of your funds to some corrupt official, your money won't be taken by the USA tax man, the local authorities will see to that ... So, tread lightly
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 18, 2013, 09:40 pm

Problem is, if you don't have some kind of protection or willingness to pay the majority of your funds to some corrupt official, your money won't be taken by the USA tax man, the local authorities will see to that ... So, tread lightly

By this you mean the US won't take your money, the locals will?
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Meerkovo on September 18, 2013, 10:20 pm

Problem is, if you don't have some kind of protection or willingness to pay the majority of your funds to some corrupt official, your money won't be taken by the USA tax man, the local authorities will see to that ... So, tread lightly

By this you mean the US won't take your money, the locals will?


What he probably meant was, if you are on good terms with some political figures, your okay... now to be good, safe, financially secure you probably need to start giving away some gifts, perhaps money, other things, you know what I mean, this is your insurance just in case US decided to formally ask the government for official financial records on you. The only person I can see here doing this is DPR and Co, but I am guessing that is still too little money. Most of y'all should not worry about this unless you have a business the size of Microsoft or have the money of Bin Laden but are wanted anyway, concentrate first how to be as legal as possible in your place of residence then maybe consider the next level up options. They are costly, nothing is cheap and most of all nothing is a walk in the park.

In conclusion to end this...before anyone needs to the money achieve this kind of things, they need some good brains to begin the journey....


Meerkovo
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 19, 2013, 09:55 pm
Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: 99herps on September 19, 2013, 11:27 pm
Laundering discussions here are like the South Park Underpants Gnome business model but with drugs:

1. Make tons of BTC
2. ???
3. Take the national currency and transfer it offshore
4. Profit!
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 20, 2013, 12:06 am
Laundering discussions here are like the South Park Underpants Gnome business model but with drugs:

1. Make tons of BTC
2. ???
3. Take the national currency and transfer it offshore
4. Profit!
Thanks for the productive addition to the conversation
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: echo_ on September 20, 2013, 04:32 am
You're not going to get any good information on a site this public.

You need to hire a consultant, know a friend, or visit a conference in Panama.
ex. http://globalescapehatch.com/

And of course, check out the two books on offshore banking I sell.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: TrippyMane2013 on September 20, 2013, 07:06 am
How bout invest in btc. I don't see btc losing value, just withdrawal money as you need it.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 21, 2013, 12:30 am
How bout invest in btc. I don't see btc losing value, just withdrawal money as you need it.
Ya but you can't spend BTC everywhere... the point of this is to have an account that's not taxed (or known about) but fairly easy to spend money out of.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: TrippyMane2013 on September 21, 2013, 02:54 am
Periodically sell your btc on localbitcoins for cash as needed. With inflation, if you play it right you could even profit while having a untouchable account.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: buckaroo0987 on September 21, 2013, 03:09 am
Again, thanks but that's not really the point.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Meerkovo on September 21, 2013, 05:49 am
I read a while back that the Swiss are now releasing information on people who were putting their money there to avoid taxes.

This seams to be a trend. Lots of countries are starting to cooperate with the US.

Are there still countries out there (besides China) that doesn't give up the names of business owners or account holders?


Can I give you a pro tip?

There are some countries/prinicpalities whom will not provide your NAME or ADDRESS, but they will give the information that this citizen of this country has this much money, I think you pay something called 'withholding tax' I could be wrong, but I don't think I am. Instead of the bank paying you intrest, you pay them 10% or more annually or one off, depending where and what bank.


There are many guides/books to money laundering, but the ones you want to read are tax avoidance. Besides, they should only be used as guidelines to formulate your own strategy or have a great man like StExo build a strategy for you, and for your needs! More times then not, no two individuals can apply the same methods as there are many factors that come in play.


Anyway, I mentioned 'withholding tax' Swiss is doing it, San Marino also and a few more. If someone could post some detailed information regarding this, I would be grateful as well a handful other people here.


Cheers
Meerkovo
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: pharmacypowder on September 23, 2013, 11:29 pm
Belize is a beautiful tax haven
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 24, 2013, 01:46 am
God you people are really messing with danger here. Tax ignorance plus a totalitarian government usually makes a perfect combo for a long prison sentence.

The best piece of advice so far is the last: bank secrecy in Belize. It's pretty much bulletproof. It's judgement proof and creditor proof. The US government can't grab your assets over there- unless they first have a conviction of money laundering, murder, drug distribution or terrorism. And they have to provide proof that the account in question belongs to you. The only problem with this is see what happens when you try to get your money OUT of Belize. The second it comes back to America or most western countries the receiving bank will flag it and then the government will see it and track it. They will then RICO (or equivalent seizure) your funds at worst or hit you with reverse onus tax penalties. HEAVY bankrupting penalties. See Dolce e Gabbana.

As for the rest of the advice in this thread it's clueless, dangerous or some mix of the two. No offense. If you do business with any of the criminal/terrorist thug governments on the FATF blacklist then you pretty much deserve what you get. What will you get? Ever seen the movie Blow? Yeah. That.

What's the answer then? Without going into specifics you have to setup a proper offshore structure which is in full compliance with the law. This contains a minimum of 3 components all in separate jurisdictions. You can't setup the structure directly because if your name is on it then income received by the structure qualifies as worldwide income and is fully reportable and taxable. If you want to know how Apple and other companies and very wealthy individuals avoid paying billions in taxes yearly this is it. It's actually not that expensive but has to be done correctly or you're basically signing your own financial death warrant. Of course the totalitarian FATCA which comes into effect in a few months throws a monkey wrench into any American's tax avoidance plans. Most offshore institutions are currently turning away all American clients because of the incoming rules. All the more of a reason to make sure your structure is setup indirectly and properly by a non-US party.

Anyway I won't name the jurisdictions in question (hint: they're not fucking communist countries and aren't in Africa or central Asia!!) and I won't launder money for anyone here. If I don't know and trust you IRL then forget it. Way too much risk and it's nearly impossible to establish trust on either side. Just rest assured it CAN be done in compliance with the law and that's what the richest people on earth use to skirt around their local tax laws. I can only hope that DPR uses one.

My advice? Use the Bitcoin-Qt client and local cash and carry. You get instant secrecy and anonymity when running it over Tor and meeting up face to face with trusted traders. A lot safer than dealing with bankers who are all subject to KYC requirements. Only if you're dealing with over $100K (preferably over $1M) should you be looking at setting up the type of offshore structure I was talking about.

Trust me. You've been warned.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: PinnacleGoods on September 24, 2013, 04:38 am
Sir:

Please clarify what advice you believe Pinnacle Goods provided that was clueless, dangerous, or some mix of the two?

Details on FATF blacklist countries were provided in response to the previous post which stated that "every company says they cooperate with the US", to expand upon that answer and paint the entire picture.  We never advised anyone to do business with any entity from a FATF blacklist country.

We stated:

"if you don't have some kind of protection or willingness to pay the majority of your funds to some corrupt official, your money won't be taken by the USA tax man, the local authorities will see to that ..."

Simply put, this statement was a warning about being extorted in these countries, and not having to worry about money being taken by the USA tax man because the local authorities will have already taken it...

Hiding money in SE Asia is very commonly practiced by all types of people with every possible level of financial resources at their disposal.  From mainland Chinese hiding money abroad, to Japanese businesses, to the locals, hiding money in SE Asia has been going on for a long time and if you find a good partner it can represent a good value proposition.  Barriers to entry can be very low.  We offer no specifics, or advice, other than to 'tread lightly'.


Agreed that setting up a structure that is in full compliance with local laws is always advisable, and we would not hold our money any other way.  But laws are regularly stretched to extremes in some jurisdictions which are not on FATF blacklists or otherwise notable or suspicious.  So using such a structure that is in full compliance with local laws might be frowned upon by IRS and other USA agencies, should they ever investigate said structure, which they won't if you're not a total moron about it.

Partnering with foreign bankers by working with foreign banks and then poaching some of their top talent, which is easily done in many jurisdictions as many foreign banks pay these highly skilled and invaluable individuals a pittance for their services, opens the floodgates of possibilities for storing and growing funds in their jurisdictions with said local bankers as partners.  Establish a few such relationships in different jurisdictions to diversify the risks some fraction of total funds are subject to. Keep these operations totally isolated so no one working on operations in country X are even aware that you have any business interests in country Y is a common sense safety precaution that any novice would identify as a good strategy.

"Ali Baba" arrangements <clearnet warning http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Baba_(Malaysia) > are in place all over Malaysia and Indonesia to allow a company to derive benefits reserved for bumiputera when the company is not a bumiputera run business at its core.

Thailand property and wealth holding arrangements are easily constructed for nearly anyone, provided they are willing to pay the requisite tea money, and such arrangements are used at very large scale by many governments of Arab nations to guarantee access to reasonably priced rice to feed their citizens: < clearnet warning: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-associations-farmers-call-for-urgent-review-o-30187778.html > "Many foreign investors from Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Singapore now allegedly own rice plantation areas in the North and Central regions to benefit from the current high subsidy prices."

Philippines.. So many possibilities, from providing foreign remittance services integrated with low interest short term loan opportunities, to partnering with Jeepney operators so they have any funds needed to keep their operations functioning smoothly, to providing discount phone home solutions for Filipinos working abroad, assisting the western (or Chinese, Korean, Japanese, or Arab) suitors of Filipinos who were married in obtaining a marriage annulment, helping Filipinos get safe abortions in other countries due to the illegality of abortion in Philippines, to a number of reliable seasonal plays, really the sky is the limit.

Opportunities abound in Hong Kong and mainland China.

Cambodia, Myanmar, Laos, and Vietnam, I don't touch.  Cambodia and Vietnam maybe sometime soon. Laos.. Why?

A few hundred thousand USD can easily be used to construct one or more legitimate and high yielding business arrangements as described in any of the countries mentioned above.  Pay the right people when appropriate and you won't go to prison.  Laws are just suggestions in most of these places.  Get good representation and partners, and make sure they live high on the hog, and no problems will ensue.

Of course, there's the 'pay the lawyers to structure things like Fortune 500 companies do' option, which you seem to be fond of. But this seems overpriced and more risky than necessary due to an impending day of reckoning that will eventually come to those using such a strategy if they aren't as rich as Carlos Slim Helou.  I hear Netherlands Antilles are good for 'be like a Fortune 500 company' structures, as many tax advisers have tried to direct me there.

We are aware and have used a number of advanced techniques for moving money, having built and operated arbitrage engines that yielded quite nice returns. Using a wealth of market data to identify patterns in forex futures allowed us to execute trades as though we were frontunning all the options players, which we technically did not do because they were never our clients, and frontrunning one's own clients is illegal and immoral.  More basic transactions utilizing this arbitrage engine ranged from identifying predictable seasonal changes in certain exchange rates, and positioning ourselves to take advantage of these patterns, to identifying circumstances when risk associated with taking large, far out of the money positions was negated by the effects of other factors at play in these markets which were not being priced in.

Further, through our operation of an online gambling site we found quite a few opportunities for nearly 90% returns to turn questionable money into gambling winnings, which are not taxed for Australians - so there's a nice option for any Aussies out there, message me for details on how to get optimal returns with minimal risk.

Bottom line: please, Baraka, tell me what is 'clueless, dangerous, or some mix of the two' in these suggestions?  Do you have experience on the ground in any of these countries?
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 24, 2013, 05:48 am
Quote
Bottom line: please, Baraka, tell me what is 'clueless, dangerous, or some mix of the two' in these suggestions?  Do you have experience on the ground in any of these countries?

Like I said no offense. I didn't mean to insult. To answer your question I have experience with SE Asia in particular. I think your advice is pretty good actually and I'm sorry to have lumped you in with putting money in Uruguay, etc. But the fact remains that some of these countries are very difficult to move money out of. Take Vietnam for example. Capital controls up the ass. You have to hold your money in Dong and put up with their 10-20% inflation rate. The banks will give you shit for trying to convert any of your money to even a few hundred bucks. All of their gold exchanges have been shut down by the government. Binh Duong may be good for setting up a local biz but you still have to deal with all that other shit. Cambodia and Laos are still very behind but if you know one of the ruling elite over there (only a few families control their wealth) then you're set. MUCH easier said than done of course. Same thing in Thailand and Indonesia although they're much further along. Singapore is great but is a police state as many on here have said. They still have very good bank secrecy and were slapped a few years ago by the OECD for being non-compliant with KYC regs. There's a reason why some of the richest people in the world are domiciled there and why Eduardo Saverin renounced his citizenship to do that. Extremely expensive to live there but you don't ever have to if that's just part of your offshore strategy.

Your advice about holding gold in Malaysia is good but the quality is subpar for bullion (only 99.5% purity?) and they don't say what they charge which could be substantial at several % a year. And again you have to ask yourself how you'll ever get the money back to America or wherever. In most cases you won't be able to without arousing KYC banking suspicion. HK is a bit better in this respect but incoming funds from any country will arouse suspicion if the amount and frequency are "unusual"

You can maneuver your way financially through SE Asia if you know the right people. That's a big fucking IF though. I have personally been screwed on the ground over there. I would much rather deal with TRUSTED, established and competent businessmen in the west and pay up for that valuable service than take a chance in God knows where. You don't have to move your money around and can obey the law with respect to taxes which is how they nail a lot of people if they don't outright seize their funds first. Creating a proper structure and maintaining it is not very expensive if you have at least $100K accumulated. With $1M or more then the cost is very low as a % of your capital.

Anyway I still recommend bitcoin above all else for lesser amounts. Much easier, far less headaches and miniscule risk. I've only heard of one sub-$1000 bitcoin seizure so far despite the more than $1 billion market cap of the currency. It's almost impossible to prove anything in court unlike with offshore money transfers which are designed to be tracked by big brother.

Quote
Thailand property and wealth holding arrangements are easily constructed for nearly anyone, provided they are willing to pay the requisite tea money, and such arrangements are used at very large scale by many governments of Arab nations to guarantee access to reasonably priced rice to feed their citizens: < clearnet warning: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-associations-farmers-call-for-urgent-review-o-30187778.html > "Many foreign investors from Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Singapore now allegedly own rice plantation areas in the North and Central regions to benefit from the current high subsidy prices."

This is great stuff. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: PinnacleGoods on September 24, 2013, 08:12 am
Quote
Bottom line: please, Baraka, tell me what is 'clueless, dangerous, or some mix of the two' in these suggestions?  Do you have experience on the ground in any of these countries?

You can maneuver your way financially through SE Asia if you know the right people. That's a big fucking IF though.

Quote
Thailand property and wealth holding arrangements are easily constructed for nearly anyone, provided they are willing to pay the requisite tea money, and such arrangements are used at very large scale by many governments of Arab nations to guarantee access to reasonably priced rice to feed their citizens: < clearnet warning: http://www.nationmultimedia.com/business/Rice-associations-farmers-call-for-urgent-review-o-30187778.html > "Many foreign investors from Taiwan, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait and Singapore now allegedly own rice plantation areas in the North and Central regions to benefit from the current high subsidy prices."

This is great stuff. I appreciate it.

Thanks much for the prompt reply.  I totally agree that most of the suggestions are at best misguided, and at worst attempts to get money into the poster's country so they can help fleece it.  Moving money without leaving much trace is tricky, and is getting trickier every day it seems...

Totally agree on avoiding Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos - I have no need for dealing with those countries now or anytime in the foreseeable future.  I tried to stress what a big fucking IF it is about knowing the right people who can help with moving money and business opportunities in SE Asia. IF you don't know anyone going in, DON'T GO, YOU WILL GET FUCKED!

The Kuwaiti Financial House example was just something i had on hand, I got a brochure describing this savings account last time I was shopping in KLCC and like to use it as an example of how differently banking systems work in different parts of the world.  I couldn't see myself ever investing with them...  CIMB is nicer in Malaysia, although using the Malaysian banking system is generally a bad idea because it is terminally screwed due to having to support all the entitlements UMNO have gotten for bumiputera. Bumiputeras get 7% taken off property prices 'just because', and have all kinds of other benefits that the state and private sector have to support.

The banks can't just say "well, we have to take a loss to operate in Malaysia", they must make their money and that typically requires offering non-bumiputera citizens very poor financing options.  I feel bad for my ethnic Chinese and Indian Malay friends, who know they are relegated to second class citizenship in their own homeland just because of their ancestry.  Most who can emigrate to Singapore...

But.. Can you blame bumiputera for milking it? Check out some of these sweet loans bumiputera are eligible for: <clearnet warning: http://www.smeinfo.com.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=613&Itemid=460&lang=en >
The TEKUN Financing Scheme State is particularly nice, and is available to both bumiputera and some Young Indian organization - leaving only the 30-40% of the population that is ethnic Chinese unable to take advantage of the generous terms. Nearly $20000 USD is offered as 'microfinance', a signature loan offered to all members of two ethnic groups.  Check out the repayment schedule, with the 4% annual servicing fee being all the borrower pays on top of the principal: <cleartext warning: http://www.tekun.gov.my/documents/10124/292914d2-9e1c-4765-8249-4785c4732b33 >

Then you get stories like this one <cleartext warning: http://www.sarawakreport.org/2010/10/raziahs-mr880-million-bank-loan/ > about a connected Malay getting a $285 Million USD loan to a well qualified borrower with about $300000 USD in capital allowing the borrower to do, well, they don't disclose their business plan even though all that money came out of a national retirement fund!

Or this article documenting the common practice of bumiputera government contractors selling those contracts they got solely based on their ancestry in exchange for luxury cars or residences: <cleartext warning: http://www.as-i-was-saying.com/2011/09/bumis-typically-sold-government.html >

It's no surprise then that nearly all Malay banks have strategies stressing that they "Grow receivables balanced with improvement in asset quality", because their assets are shit loans that they make no money on, with tons of NPLs written off regularly..  Petronas towers reminds me of two giant tits pointing straight up, and when Malays are no longer able to suckle at the Petronas teat they will be in dire straits indeed.

If you were screwed in one of two countries where I have some important friends, I can probably help quite a bit if you want to attempt to have the wrong righted...  Feel free to msg me here or on SR, I love talking shop about opportunities in SE Asia, there are so many that a little capital and oversight can unlock...
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: chaosmix on September 24, 2013, 02:18 pm
keep that shit in cash!
get you a big safe!
Hide it in a house that nobody knows you have!(get it in someone elses name if you cant have stuff in your name and pay them to stfu, if you have a wife that loves you then she will do this!)
pitbulls rottweilers, chain link fences and security cameras are usually enough to keep people off your property
i would never trust anyone with a huge amount of money that i dont have easy,legal access too and you shouldnt either!
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: 99herps on September 25, 2013, 02:01 am
My advice? Use the Bitcoin-Qt client and local cash and carry. You get instant secrecy and anonymity when running it over Tor and meeting up face to face with trusted traders. A lot safer than dealing with bankers who are all subject to KYC requirements. Only if you're dealing with over $100K (preferably over $1M) should you be looking at setting up the type of offshore structure I was talking about.

It's only anonymous if nobody traced the transaction, isn't an informant or isn't a sting operation. I have yet to see a solution that doesn't at some point require your physical person to be involved in the BTC-to-national-currency part of the transaction or the requirement that at some point you "trust" someone, all of which is ridiculously insecure in my opinion. All of this offshore talk is fancy but ultimately unhelpful unless you have a way to get BTC into national currency in a safe way in the first place.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 25, 2013, 07:31 am
And what's wrong with forming personal trading relationships and meeting people face to face off of Localbitcoins again?

If you consider that "ridiculously insecure" then do you know what else is just as insecure? How about buying and selling illegal drugs off of this site?? lol  ;)

My advice? Use the Bitcoin-Qt client and local cash and carry. You get instant secrecy and anonymity when running it over Tor and meeting up face to face with trusted traders. A lot safer than dealing with bankers who are all subject to KYC requirements. Only if you're dealing with over $100K (preferably over $1M) should you be looking at setting up the type of offshore structure I was talking about.

It's only anonymous if nobody traced the transaction, isn't an informant or isn't a sting operation. I have yet to see a solution that doesn't at some point require your physical person to be involved in the BTC-to-national-currency part of the transaction or the requirement that at some point you "trust" someone, all of which is ridiculously insecure in my opinion. All of this offshore talk is fancy but ultimately unhelpful unless you have a way to get BTC into national currency in a safe way in the first place.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 25, 2013, 07:47 am
Thanks much for the prompt reply.  I totally agree that most of the suggestions are at best misguided, and at worst attempts to get money into the poster's country so they can help fleece it.  Moving money without leaving much trace is tricky, and is getting trickier every day it seems...

Totally agree on avoiding Vietnam, Cambodia, and Laos - I have no need for dealing with those countries now or anytime in the foreseeable future.  I tried to stress what a big fucking IF it is about knowing the right people who can help with moving money and business opportunities in SE Asia. IF you don't know anyone going in, DON'T GO, YOU WILL GET FUCKED!

In my case I did have solid connections. But it was still a waste of time and money because I was basically abandoned and we didn't get anything done. Don't worry. I didn't get robbed or anything  ;D

Quote
Bumiputeras get 7% taken off property prices 'just because', and have all kinds of other benefits that the state and private sector have to support.

These parasites make the worst union thugs over here look like nice guys in comparison  :o

Quote
The banks can't just say "well, we have to take a loss to operate in Malaysia", they must make their money and that typically requires offering non-bumiputera citizens very poor financing options.  I feel bad for my ethnic Chinese and Indian Malay friends, who know they are relegated to second class citizenship in their own homeland just because of their ancestry.  Most who can emigrate to Singapore...

I went to school with a guy who was born in KL and was ethnic Chinese so I've heard all about that shit. Economic apartheid is what it is.

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But.. Can you blame bumiputera for milking it? Check out some of these sweet loans bumiputera are eligible for: <clearnet warning: http://www.smeinfo.com.my/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=613&Itemid=460&lang=en >
The TEKUN Financing Scheme State is particularly nice, and is available to both bumiputera and some Young Indian organization - leaving only the 30-40% of the population that is ethnic Chinese unable to take advantage of the generous terms. Nearly $20000 USD is offered as 'microfinance', a signature loan offered to all members of two ethnic groups.  Check out the repayment schedule, with the 4% annual servicing fee being all the borrower pays on top of the principal: <cleartext warning: http://www.tekun.gov.my/documents/10124/292914d2-9e1c-4765-8249-4785c4732b33 >

Again thanks for all this info. I knew about the bumiputera before. Just didn't know what they're called. As for the rest I've learned more about Malaysia from your stuff than I have over the past couple of years!  :D

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Then you get stories like this one <cleartext warning: http://www.sarawakreport.org/2010/10/raziahs-mr880-million-bank-loan/ > about a connected Malay getting a $285 Million USD loan to a well qualified borrower with about $300000 USD in capital allowing the borrower to do, well, they don't disclose their business plan even though all that money came out of a national retirement fund!

Business plan? My blind guess would be upgrading the Pentagon's toilets  ;D
If that were really true then they would've turned that $285 mil to $3 billion over the course of their contract lol

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Or this article documenting the common practice of bumiputera government contractors selling those contracts they got solely based on their ancestry in exchange for luxury cars or residences: <cleartext warning: http://www.as-i-was-saying.com/2011/09/bumis-typically-sold-government.html >

Nothing wrong with that!  :o ::)

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It's no surprise then that nearly all Malay banks have strategies stressing that they "Grow receivables balanced with improvement in asset quality", because their assets are shit loans that they make no money on, with tons of NPLs written off regularly..  Petronas towers reminds me of two giant tits pointing straight up, and when Malays are no longer able to suckle at the Petronas teat they will be in dire straits indeed.

+1 based on the Petronas comment alone!!! I promise to reuse this quote of yours again. What should I say the source is considering this is SR??

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If you were screwed in one of two countries where I have some important friends, I can probably help quite a bit if you want to attempt to have the wrong righted...  Feel free to msg me here or on SR, I love talking shop about opportunities in SE Asia, there are so many that a little capital and oversight can unlock...

Will do. Thanks again.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: TheGoodSon on September 25, 2013, 06:19 pm
God you people are really messing with danger here. Tax ignorance plus a totalitarian government usually makes a perfect combo for a long prison sentence.

The best piece of advice so far is the last: bank secrecy in Belize. It's pretty much bulletproof. It's judgement proof and creditor proof. The US government can't grab your assets over there- unless they first have a conviction of money laundering, murder, drug distribution or terrorism. And they have to provide proof that the account in question belongs to you. The only problem with this is see what happens when you try to get your money OUT of Belize. The second it comes back to America or most western countries the receiving bank will flag it and then the government will see it and track it. They will then RICO (or equivalent seizure) your funds at worst or hit you with reverse onus tax penalties. HEAVY bankrupting penalties. See Dolce e Gabbana.

As for the rest of the advice in this thread it's clueless, dangerous or some mix of the two. No offense. If you do business with any of the criminal/terrorist thug governments on the FATF blacklist then you pretty much deserve what you get. What will you get? Ever seen the movie Blow? Yeah. That.

What's the answer then? Without going into specifics you have to setup a proper offshore structure which is in full compliance with the law. This contains a minimum of 3 components all in separate jurisdictions. You can't setup the structure directly because if your name is on it then income received by the structure qualifies as worldwide income and is fully reportable and taxable. If you want to know how Apple and other companies and very wealthy individuals avoid paying billions in taxes yearly this is it. It's actually not that expensive but has to be done correctly or you're basically signing your own financial death warrant. Of course the totalitarian FATCA which comes into effect in a few months throws a monkey wrench into any American's tax avoidance plans. Most offshore institutions are currently turning away all American clients because of the incoming rules. All the more of a reason to make sure your structure is setup indirectly and properly by a non-US party.

Anyway I won't name the jurisdictions in question (hint: they're not fucking communist countries and aren't in Africa or central Asia!!) and I won't launder money for anyone here. If I don't know and trust you IRL then forget it. Way too much risk and it's nearly impossible to establish trust on either side. Just rest assured it CAN be done in compliance with the law and that's what the richest people on earth use to skirt around their local tax laws. I can only hope that DPR uses one.

My advice? Use the Bitcoin-Qt client and local cash and carry. You get instant secrecy and anonymity when running it over Tor and meeting up face to face with trusted traders. A lot safer than dealing with bankers who are all subject to KYC requirements. Only if you're dealing with over $100K (preferably over $1M) should you be looking at setting up the type of offshore structure I was talking about.

Trust me. You've been warned.


Talk about ignorance. Belize is the LAST place I would ever invest money. They have "secrecy", but they have so many backroom deals with the USA that it's not even funny. They require documentation for every transaction.


If you really want good financial security, and you're an American, you need to be looking at setting up a residency in another country and going that way to get a bank account. There are double taxation treaties set up, so that as long as your money is on the books in Country A, you cannot be taxed in the USA.

With Obamacare rolling out, we need to take extra provisions to hide our money. I recommend all Americans buy precious metals (Gold, Silver) and guns and ammunition :)
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 25, 2013, 08:35 pm
Talk about ignorance. Belize is the LAST place I would ever invest money. They have "secrecy", but they have so many backroom deals with the USA that it's not even funny.

Most tax haven countries have so many backroom deals with the USA or the UK that it's not even funny. The point is what the banks do with their customers' money and whether they respect secrecy or not. In the right jurisdictions such as Belize bank secrecy is taken very seriously. The government can't force a bank to do anything over there unless there is a conviction for one of those 4 things I named earlier. You'll read tons of stories about people (mostly very rich, badly advised idiots) who were busted with secret bank accounts in Switzerland. Some in Liechtenstein too (due to a suspected spy who sold out one of their biggest banks a few years back). But have you ever heard of something like that happening in Belize? Because I haven't.

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They require documentation for every transaction.

So does every bank. OECD rules require documentation for every transaction. Those totalitarian rules came into effect about 20 years ago. But how can anyone seize your money if your name is not found anywhere near your account? That's what properly structured holdings offer you. Belize would be only one of the jurisdictions used in your structure.

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If you really want good financial security, and you're an American, you need to be looking at setting up a residency in another country and going that way to get a bank account. There are double taxation treaties set up, so that as long as your money is on the books in Country A, you cannot be taxed in the USA.

Bermuda is on treaty with the US. Does that mean you move there which is one of the most expensive places in the world to live?

Another problem is the IRS reporting requirements. Unless you renounce your citizenship you have to report ownership of every offshore account you have. Even indirectly. Failure to do so can lead to a criminal investigation, arrest and jail time. Even if you have nothing in the account in question. So everything you said is either moot or undoable for pretty much everyone on here.

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With Obamacare rolling out, we need to take extra provisions to hide our money. I recommend all Americans buy precious metals (Gold, Silver) and guns and ammunition :)

I'm definitely with ya there! And don't forget Bitcoin either.  ;D
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Cher on September 25, 2013, 09:54 pm
subbed, great reading guys!

particularly interested in s.asia for retirement plans :)
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: suffix on September 25, 2013, 10:12 pm
with the obvious exception of black market transactions taxes are a good thing and tax evasion disgusts me, were never going to get like the dudes on star treck if every greedy fucker in the world keeps trying to avoid paying their fair share and yes i know governments spend our money on useless crap like bombs and contracts for their mates  and pepper spraying protestors but occasionally some of the money trickles through and pays for things like libraries, hospitals and helping people who are out of work and that's a good thing.

Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: 99herps on September 26, 2013, 12:26 am
Baraka, you shouldn't be so cocky when you say ignorant things. It makes you look even more slow.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: Baraka on September 26, 2013, 03:31 am
governments spend our money on useless crap like bombs and contracts for their mates  and pepper spraying protestors but occasionally some of the money trickles through and pays for things like libraries, hospitals and helping people who are out of work and that's a good thing.

WOW. And would you drink something that was mostly poison if there were some really healthy things mixed in there too??  ::)

Baraka, you shouldn't be so cocky when you say ignorant things. It makes you look even more slow.

Ignorant things? Like what?
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: suffix on September 26, 2013, 06:26 am
governments spend our money on useless crap like bombs and contracts for their mates  and pepper spraying protestors but occasionally some of the money trickles through and pays for things like libraries, hospitals and helping people who are out of work and that's a good thing.

WOW. And would you drink something that was mostly poison if there were some really healthy things mixed in there too??  ::)

Baraka, you shouldn't be so cocky when you say ignorant things. It makes you look even more slow.

Ignorant things? Like what?

a fair point, but then if my dealer was cutting my gear i would not stop taking drugs, i would get a new dealer, just as if a government runs a country in a foolish and greedy way a people should get a new government...and preferably kill all members of the failed one....and hang their rotting corpses in the street as a warning to anyone who exploits the sweat of the workers for the gain and vanity of the few =)
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: shulginsindex on September 26, 2013, 06:36 am
Theres a lot of re sold misdirected information on the forums. Make 250k a month, think 300-500 will sort your problems.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: PinnacleGoods on September 26, 2013, 06:31 pm
subbed, great reading guys!

particularly interested in s.asia for retirement plans :)

Maybe we could figure out some kind of group buy type deal, where 'shares' in a particularly safe venture are discussed here, and transactions made in a foreign country, employing nationals of that country to act as proxies for those interested.  This could all be done and allow everyone to keep anonymity up to the point of everyone knowing that a proxy is being used, but with no knowledge of who is backing that proxy  Lower barriers to entry into this kind of endeavor.

with the obvious exception of black market transactions taxes are a good thing and tax evasion disgusts me, were never going to get like the dudes on star treck if every greedy fucker in the world keeps trying to avoid paying their fair share and yes i know governments spend our money on useless crap like bombs and contracts for their mates  and pepper spraying protestors but occasionally some of the money trickles through and pays for things like libraries, hospitals and helping people who are out of work and that's a good thing.

Since you can not spell Star Trek, why should we assume you have any knowledge of the show or what it takes to 'get like the dudes'.

Every greedy fucker in this world who has the opportunity to do so is working to collect from the slush fund formed from what DOT brings in from USA citizens and corporations.

Play with this to see just how much of income tax paid in USA goes where:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/2012-taxreceipt

Libertarianism is alive and well in the USA because of the overreaching efforts of government.
Title: Re: Tax Havens
Post by: shulginsindex on September 29, 2013, 03:18 am
real estate , stocks, investment opportunities because there are loads. If there was some trust between people this place could excel profits even for the small vendors.

There's also controlled franchisees which now are the easiest method due to liability exchange.