Silk Road forums
Discussion => Drug safety => Topic started by: Snoopish on August 28, 2012, 04:41 am
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I'm thinking of starting a long-term trial of these drugs and wanted to know if anyone had experience with this: what's the best combinations, etc.
http://www.longecity.org/forum/topic/36691-ten-months-of-research-condensed-a-total-newbies-guide-to-nootropics/
I checked out this article and it seemed informative. It lines up with other articles I have read in terms of combining certain drugs but I don't know if it's the best way to give this a try.
Anybody out there try them out regularly?
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I recommend a daily regime of a racetam (Oxiracetam, Piracetam, Aniracetam or Pramiracetam ... whatever suits you). They are very mild but noticeable. Long term use seems to have a restorative effect on the brain. Experiment yourself with choline, B vitamins etc. But don't look for a high. It's a diet for your brain. Exercise it and stick to your regime if you want results.
Get stacking!
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Judging by your avatar, your a man I can trust with my drug advice!
I don't plan to discontinue or slow my recreational drug use during this regimen--would any illegal drugs (assume any since I use several occasionally and experiment with new ones regularly) have any negative interactions? I'm thinking not--I don't see any direct overlapping in drugs. Like you said, don't look for a high because these drugs don't function in such a manner so my thinking is there isn't any likely negative drug reactions.
Also, there's a seller on amazon selling 500g of piracetam for ~$35. Much cheaper than I've seen previously. If anyone cares to check it out the seller is called rhino something. I don't know. Best deal I've found but some of the other racetams seem to be considered stronger so I don't know if there might be a better deal in terms of potency/dollar amount.
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Judging by your avatar, your a man I can trust with my drug advice!
Yes. Yes, you can. ;)
would any illegal drugs (assume any since I use several occasionally and experiment with new ones regularly) have any negative interactions? I'm thinking not--I don't see any direct overlapping in drugs.
On the contrary. All chemicals interact. Having one of my fried chicken burgers will alter your body's chemistry (the tryptophan becomes a precursor to the neurotransmitters you need for a good roll). You should be using nootropics to protect your brain from the abuse of drugs you take, and to restore the neurotransmitters you are using up.
In this way, nootropics can actually make your drug experiences better, more powerful and safer.
But of course, moderation helps too.
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I actually hadn't considered the replenishing nature that comes from the nootropics and its interaction with the depletion properties of many "harder" drugs. I may keep this in mind and begin a long-term experience journal of the combination of nootropics and the effects it may have on the other recreational drugs I use.
Stay tuned!
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The different racetams seems to vary in effect from person to person; an associate of mine swears by aniracetam yet I find it's not markedly more effective than piracetam. After trials of several years within my small research group we've established that 1-3 grams of piracetam prior to taking MDMA gives a subjectively cleaner experience with less unpleasant vagueness after the experience. Using piracetam with amphetamine seems to require redosing with piracetam after about 8 hours to have a subjective lessening of aftereffects, and this is presumably because of the long duration of the effects of methamphetamine.
I'm hesitant to mention this because of the dangers of messing about with MAOI pharmaceuticals due to the damage that can occur and the likelihood of inducing serotonin syndrome with incautious co-administration with other drugs, but selegiline at very low doses before taking MDMA or meth has a pronounced protective effect, at least in the small research group I participate in.
Seeing as piracetam is so inexpensive, especially when bought as a powder, and is almost totally without negative effects at any level I'd argue it's a good staple for keeping your brain protected from some of the ravages of psychotropic chemical use.
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Nice summation mercury! I appreciate the information. How often does your group use any of the racetams and at what dosage? Are talking daily regimens of racetam(and possible choline since I hear it helps augment the effect)?
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I hear Pramiracetam is the strongest (and therefore cheapest). Conflicting reports .. anywhere between 5 and 30 times stronger than Piracetam. Worth trying IMHO.
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I hear Pramiracetam is the strongest (and therefore cheapest). Conflicting reports .. anywhere between 5 and 30 times stronger than Piracetam. Worth trying IMHO.
I'd heard similar about a month or so ago. Hadn't double-checked. I may see if I can find a good vendor of this stuff and piracetam and see if I can tell a noticeable difference between the two.
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You can find pretty large bags of piracetam on Amazon.
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I hear Pramiracetam is the strongest (and therefore cheapest). Conflicting reports .. anywhere between 5 and 30 times stronger than Piracetam. Worth trying IMHO.
I'd heard similar about a month or so ago. Hadn't double-checked. I may see if I can find a good vendor of this stuff and piracetam and see if I can tell a noticeable difference between the two.
Yeh try it.. the difference is obvious! Especially if you have an attack dose. (double dose)
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Different group members use racetams differently. One can't bear to take anything stronger than piracetam because it results in agitation and nervousness, and they restrict their use of piracetam to a maximum of 800mg in a single dose and then only when they have a particularly taxing day at work. This person rarely takes psychedelics or PEAs and is fairly sensitive to most compounds.
For several years I'd taken 1600mg of piracetam a day 5 days a week as a regular maintenance program. I wasn't able to detect a difference when taking choline supplements, and to my knowledge none of the others have tried it. I did get a synergistic effect with hydergine but hydergine also caused nausea so I discontinued use.
I would routinely consume an additional 2400-4000mg prior to taking MDMA, and during a testing phase of a few months in which MDMA was consumed fortnightly we established that we felt less crapped out the following afternoon (MDMA was taken in the afternoon, and some sleeping was done prior to midday then next day, as a general rule) although some members said the high was slightly less enjoyable. My feeling on this is that they had a trained response from some prior years of moderate to heavy amphetamine sulfate use, and so grungy felt good to them. I have no hard data or evidence to support this, but the people who were not as appreciative of the effect piracetam had were the ones with the least measured (and, it should be said, educated) drug use in years prior.
I stopped taking piracetam daily because I found I was deriving a bit too much pleasure from mechanistic tasks in my work, and I felt this was occurring to the detriment of some of the creative and lateral thought modes. I've been off it for about 12 months and my manifest output supports the idea that for me, at least, constant use of piracetam isn't the best way to get the full potential out of my brain. It does, however, make up for a multitude of sins, such as not religiously getting enough sleep. I also use it when I have tasks that require concentration but not a lot of interaction with other people. I prefer not to talk about my work in any specific capacity, but it varies from having to socially interact with a wide range of technical and management professionals to monothematic focus on related tasks to the exclusion of all else. I've learned not to take piracetam when having to deal with people in this type of situation.
Aniracetam worked well for one of the group members as a general supplement, but was too expensive for them to consider daily use, although they did seem to be intellectually quicker when they took it continuously for around a month. I believe the dosage was 750mg.
Pramiracetam tends to make me quick to anger. It was also quite expensive when I tried it, and elements of my life at the time meant that I was under a certain amount of stress, and while I was arguably quicker in the head, the occasional desire to poke out the eyes of slow witted clients who - while on pramiracetam - I felt were being deliberately thicker than they needed to be wasn't conducive to good performance.
I've tried oxiracetam, but I cannot remember what effects it had. If I can find notes I'll relate them in this thread.
I had been buying piracetam for the best part of two decades in pill form - brand name Nootropil. About a year and a half ago I bought a kilogram of piracetam powder for the price of about 140g or nootropil. Gram for gram I can't detect any difference in efficacy.
It's also amusing to get a jolly great pouch of white powder delivered to your work place, open it up, taste it in front of co-workers, and then put it away with a satisfied grin.
Finally phenylpiracetam is superb. The price, as some wag put it, makes baby jesus cry, but as a nootropic stimulant it is without compare in my experience. It's not just a nootropic, it's a physical performance enhancer and apparently a CNS stimulant. I buy probably 60 tabs a year, about half of which I use at work during consultancy workshops when I want to appear to be a bona fide fucking genius, and the other half on weekends to make fun stuff even more fun. Housework is magnificent on phenylpiracetam, but hiking, mountain biking, weightlifting, or even walking the dogs with a friend is more fun than it has any right to be. There are times I consider having a kilogram or two of it synthesized. Everyone I know who has tried it - including the sensitive case for whom piracetam is too much most days - has said they love it.
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You know your stuff Mercury! I tip my hat off to you. I hadn't even heard of that last form of racetam. It looks like I may be challenged to efficiently begin personal tests on some of these drugs what with how many instances there are. I may buy a few grams(about enough for 1-2 weeks for each) and alternate which one I take in a day and journal my experiences each day for ~2 months and see which drug is most noticeable/useful/enjoyable.
Cheers!
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Pramiracetam is the only nootropic i have tried, but i did get some positive effects from it.
For me it took the foggyness in my mind away and made me a lil sharper, although i did notice i slurred my words on a few occasions..
I think it helped my anxiety to an extent aswell especially when stoned and unsociable :/
Anyone recommend any good nootropics/stacks for anxiety?
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You know your stuff Mercury! I tip my hat off to you. I hadn't even heard of that last form of racetam.
I know a little bit, and am happy to share what I believe I've learned along the way. I'd be inclined to pay attention to TheBusiness, as my own experiences with combinations seem to have been less effective than TheBusiness's. Each person reacts somewhat differently, and I'm an advocate of keeping notes of your trials.
I do recall that phenylpiracetam and yohimbe is an unpleasant combination.
Phenylpiracetam seems universally loved and preferred by people who've tried the range of racetams, with the exception of people who can't stomach the price. I did read a forum report where somebody claimed no noticeable effect. I understood their post to mean that they were used to hard CNS stimulants likes amphetamine and were expecting something along those lines, so their disappointment was understandable, even if it could have been avoided with a bit of reading.
Phenylpiracetam is sold as Carphedon, and you ought to be able to find it from time to time from Russian pharmaceutical sites, or sites with a decent RU connection. It's an OTC medication in RU as I understand it, so it can only be a matter of time till it appears on Silk Road with only a 100% markup instead of the 300-500% markup that it appears to labour under when I buy it.
It looks like I may be challenged to efficiently begin personal tests on some of these drugs what with how many instances there are. I may buy a few grams(about enough for 1-2 weeks for each) and alternate which one I take in a day and journal my experiences each day for ~2 months and see which drug is most noticeable/useful/enjoyable.
There are many out there to try. If I may offer a suggestion, leaving a couple of weeks between trials will probably give you a better picture of how each one affects you. The effect of a series of nootropics taken sequentially is often different than the same nootropics taken in isolation with time in between to return to natural homeostasis. The sheer number of permutations are too many to reasonably try, and as mentioned earlier in the thread, even the food you're eating will have an impact on the different subjective effects of any given compound.
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I've got some pramiracetam, there is a seller called byobss who sells a bunch of 'no brand' supplements on ebay cheaper than most placed because it comes in plastic zippies instead of labelled brand packages.
Honestly, haven't really given it much of a chance for a prolonged amount of time. It tastes horrible, but is bareable with a glass of orange juice and chased with juice. Seems to make me tired a bit earlier at night, so may help sleep, and does make me a little more alert. Definitely should be combined with a decent breakfast or it will bring on headaches. Recommended dose is 250mg, I'd up to 350-400mg if only taking once in the morning.
I don't think you will notice miracles from it, but worth trying I guess. I'd like to try to stick with it and give it more chance, need to fix my daily routine up a bit first though. Good point that its a good supplement for countering other drugs, should use it before taking psychedelics or after maybe.
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2C-D was always one of my favorite nootropics but must be taken in 5mg doses. More info:
https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/2cd/2cd_smartpills1.shtml
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I having nothing more to add to this post, but I just wanted to thank everybody here who share so valuable knowledge.
Thank you to all!
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Anyone else have experiences with 5-10mg 2C-D as a smart pill? Very intrigued.
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Anyone else have experiences with 5-10mg 2C-D as a smart pill? Very intrigued.
Too friggin expensive to even think of trying it out. I wish other vendors would start selling it. The only one for sale is over $100 for 250mg.
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Yeh interesting stuff guys. It's great to see some talk about drugs to improve yourselves rather than just to get high. Somehow they get thrown into the same political basket and scheduled though.
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I have had excellent results with Trytamine products http://silkroadvb5piz3r.onion/index.php/silkroad/user/44143e1f2f
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I'm pleasantly surprised by the interest in this topic! I will likely start a new thread in the next couple of weeks giving a day by day experience report of my experiences once I settle on both product and vendor. Of course anybody else with experience or advice is welcome to chime in (I won't be making an order until later this week).
Cheers!
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I've had good experiences with clearnet vendors for sourcing nootropics. The country I live in forbids retail of nootropics within the country but there are provisions that allow for the import of a wide range of unapproved drugs for personal use. This excludes any scheduled drugs, but does allow us to import nootropics. Many times I've had customs open large parcels of pills, inspect the contents and finding no restricted compounds drop in a little customs brochure and tape the parcel shut. These days it appears the address and name I use are on the opposite of the flagged address list, because the parcels go through unmolested despite obviously being packed with pills and capsules, and having 'supplement's emblazoned on the customs declaration.
One thing I've not been able to source terribly cheaply is modafinil. Last I checked Silk Road vendors of Indian-sources modafinil were cheaper than the clearnet retailers I could get. The notion of setting up a profile only for buying legal drugs amuses me.
I too remain interested in other people's experiences. I hadn't heard of 2C-D till this thread. Evidently my other areas of interest have curtailed staying current and informed of nootropic developments.
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Great Topic.. Noo tropics always interested me, i never put in enough hours of study to know much on whats what and it's application in the nootropic world, however i can certainly see their potential to be a very useful tool in overall health and performance.
I am more-so attuned to the use of what can be considered super foods.
One supplement I HIGHLY suggest everyone take is the cordycep mushroom. Despite it's subtle nature, it can be of the most powerful health substance on the planet; you literally feel oxygen permeating within your whole body. Very powerful.
Real talk.. my absence from eating artificial non organic food, wheat, and bad drinks (fluoridated water, hfcs) are the reasons I am in prime health. I used to walk around constantly in a mental fog; it was the food i ate which hindered mental clarity. Now i seek a bit of interesting enhancement from time to time. I am interested in your journal because i may prescribe similar trails.
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@ Lucius: I've had a lot of people mention how changing their diet has improved their life dramatically. At some point I'd like to give it a shot but it's not in the cards for me at the moment. I will have to look up this mushroom suggestion: I enjoy experimenting with anything that will change my body's disposition towards the better (especially since some of my enjoyments help my mind's disposition at the cost of my body).
I've got a list a mile long for legal supplements to explore so I really need to make a decision!
Cheers!
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Diet has a huge impact on your mental health.
But follow the peer reviewed science and not the dross...
http://www.newscientist.com/section/health
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg21528801.100-brain-diabetes-the-ultimate-food-scare.html
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I just bought Phenylpiracetam bottled as a product made by Antaeus Labs called Demiurge.
It cost $45 plus post. It's lab verified and the reviews I read on the product are mainly positive.The only complaint I read was that it was too 'strong' - whatever that means?... maybe too intense for some people.
You can by them directly from the Antaeus Lab website or from OrbitNutrition for roughly the same price.
I'm not affiliated with these websites in any way, just a heads up for people who are interested.
I haven't received the stuff yet, but I'll repost when they arrive and I've tried it out.
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25g seems to have some nootropic qualities. It's a very clear-minded and speeds up the thinking process (sort of like speed but without the negatives of increased heart rate, jaw clenching, jitters, etc.--no body load at all).
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So I'm going to uni in a month. That means lots of weed, mdma, shrooms, lsd, etc on the weekend.
But I also want to not become a burnout and waste my time at uni, so for cramming and studying sessions I started looking into nootropics and lo and behold this topic was on the front page of Drug Safety.
I've read this topic and the first posts of the other one,
If you are just getting started I recommend three supplements.
1) Piracetam
2) CDPCholine (Citicoline)
3) Sulbutiamine
(I'm actually having a hard time finding Piracetam on it's own, my options are Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Nefiracetam, which should I go for?)
He says he doses it like this:
4g piracetam in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk (why the milk?)
mercurysolid, since you seem to know a lot about this stuff, does that sound like a good start to you?
Do you need to be taking these things daily to get an effect built up over months or can you just do it "on the day" and gain the benefits? I am mostly interested in helping memory and concentration to counteract any possible memory or concentration side-effects I get from having to take benzos for anxiety.
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I've just started a daily dose of piracetam, choline, and chelated magnesium (recommended by a friend). Right now I'm just doing 1.6g, 300 mg, 800 mg for two days and it's hard to tell if there's any immediate effects. I think you need to take it a while is what I've been told (unless you take a stronger racetam and more of it) before it starts having largely noticeable effects. I'm starting off low and will probably build off of this base.
At some point I'll make a new post detailing my experiences on this regimen and where I plan to go from here.
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I'll be sure to try and read it when it pops up (or could you PM me the link?) I'm still unsure whether or not nootropics are just snake oil or will actually help.
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I'll be sure to try and read it when it pops up (or could you PM me the link?) I'm still unsure whether or not nootropics are just snake oil or will actually help.
I'll try to remember to pm it to you. I'm rather on the same fence as you but enough people have said good things that I'm willing to invest a little and see where it gets me. I imagine I won't start it for another week (perhaps 2) so I can actually have a solid amount of time on it before making any observations (It'll give me a chance to up my dosage too).
Cheers!
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25D-NBOMe in my experience acts as an exceptionally strong nootropic. It has extraordinary effects on abstract thought and clarity of conceptual focus. Lasts about 8 hours, with psychedelic effects as well if you take enough of it. 25D-NBOMe was available for 85 dollars for 150 mg (with ~ 0.3 mg for casual day use). I have taken 3 mg, 1.5 mg, and 0.5 mg, and the one thing that makes me weary about it, is I have physically felt aftereffects in my brain (towards the frontal lobe) the same day and day after. The first time it happened, I noticed that if I tried pushing a bunch of blood into my brain, I could feel it in the front top portion the most (behind the forehead). Kind of a strange feeling. Have taken B, C, and I nbomes and this is the only one where I got the brain thing. Also tends to cause headaches. Excessive dehydration?
CLEARNET:
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.shtml
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/522482-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25D-NBOMe-(NBOMe-2C-D)-Thread
2C-D is the methyl derivative of the second position ring phenethylamine (mescaline) substitutions. 25D-NBOMe is the nbome version of it. Adding the BOM has proven to increase 2C potency by many orders of magnitude.
Also note that 2C-D was marked by Congress as Schedule I in the US this summer. It remains uncontrolled in most countries. 25D-NBOMe typically comes in blotter or liquid drops, and is legal unless sold for human consumption (I don't know if being in blotter makes it for human consumption or not).
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25D-NBOMe in my experience acts as an exceptionally strong nootropic. It has extraordinary effects on abstract thought and clarity of conceptual focus. Lasts about 8 hours, with psychedelic effects as well if you take enough of it. 25D-NBOMe was available for 85 dollars for 150 mg (with ~ 0.3 mg for casual day use). I have taken 3 mg, 1.5 mg, and 0.5 mg, and the one thing that makes me weary about it, is I have physically felt aftereffects in my brain (towards the frontal lobe) the same day and day after. The first time it happened, I noticed that if I tried pushing a bunch of blood into my brain, I could feel it in the front top portion the most (behind the forehead). Kind of a strange feeling. Have taken B, C, and I nbomes and this is the only one where I got the brain thing. Also tends to cause headaches. Excessive dehydration?
CLEARNET:
http://www.erowid.org/library/books_online/pihkal/pihkal023.shtml
http://www.bluelight.ru/vb/threads/522482-The-Big-amp-Dandy-25D-NBOMe-(NBOMe-2C-D)-Thread
2C-D is the methyl derivative of the second position ring phenethylamine (mescaline) substitutions. 25D-NBOMe is the nbome version of it. Adding the BOM has proven to increase 2C potency by many orders of magnitude.
Also note that 2C-D was marked by Congress as Schedule I in the US this summer. It remains uncontrolled in most countries. 25D-NBOMe typically comes in blotter or liquid drops, and is legal unless sold for human consumption (I don't know if being in blotter makes it for human consumption or not).
Sounds a bit too scary for me, not worth it. I'd rather just go without, or what are those regular college ones.. adderall etc? how safe are they?
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(I'm actually having a hard time finding Piracetam on it's own, my options are Oxiracetam, Pramiracetam, Nefiracetam, which should I go for?)
Piracetam is sold by International Anti-Aging Systems who've stocked it for years, and will ship internationally. They stock the nootropil brand 800mg tablets. For many years I happily consumed their product, but the price crept up over time and I moved to other suppliers. I kid you not, but you can get fine quality piracetam as a powder on Amazon. I have a half kilogram bag of it sitting here with the URL www.hardrhino.com printed on it, and it was bought for the price of a few packets of the tablets.
I'd start with plain old piracetam before trying any of the other racetams. It's almost entirely nontoxic, universally well handled, and not very expensive if you're buying it from the right places. It will allow you to play with dosage over a gigantic range that could be unpleasant and would certainly be expensive if using one of the new racetams. Once you have a feel for it and your response to the compound you'll be well placed to try some of the others.
I can't comment on salbutiamine because I've never used it, and have spent very little time research b-like supplements, aside from knowing enough to routinely dose with b complex before and after drinking sessions.
4g piracetam in the morning
800mg CDPcholine in the morning
1g sulbutiamine in the morning with whole milk (why the milk?)
If I were taking 4 grams of piracetam I'd break it into 2 x 2 gram doses, administered at breakfast and lunch. I can't comment on the CDPcholine, either. I was never able to elicit much response by playing about with choline and its derivatives, so I desisted.
mercurysolid, since you seem to know a lot about this stuff, does that sound like a good start to you?
Do you need to be taking these things daily to get an effect built up over months or can you just do it "on the day" and gain the benefits? I am mostly interested in helping memory and concentration to counteract any possible memory or concentration side-effects I get from having to take benzos for anxiety.
I know a little bit, but I think the theme that keeps coming up is that you'll only know for sure with some experimentation of your own. I have a friend who frequently takes a combination of supplements and nootropics when he feels like he's lost his zing, and it seems to work for him, but if I take the same combination I have a tendency towards irritation and aggression. If anxiety is an issue I think that would lend more weight to the idea of starting simply and not jumping into combinations that might result in anxiety.
You don't need to continuously take the racetams for the benefits. In fact over time you might find the cumulative effects to be undesirable.And then again, you might not. If memory is a concern then you might consider looking into vinpocetine. It goes nicely with piracetam and I found it quite effective at assisting medium and long term memory.
But you should try things for yourself. Experiment. Take notes. Discover what works for you.