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Discussion => Off topic => Topic started by: rise_against on December 26, 2011, 10:03 pm

Title: passing a drug test
Post by: rise_against on December 26, 2011, 10:03 pm
anyone use or know of any products that will help you pass a drug screening test? especially shampoos for follicle / hair tests.  any recommendations?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 26, 2011, 10:55 pm
anyone use or know of any products that will help you pass a drug screening test? especially shampoos for follicle / hair tests.  any recommendations?

My local tobacco smoke shop has it all. A simple SSL google search over tor should do it.


Here's a VERY helpful link: http://www.textfiles.com/drugs/drugtest.txt



Good luck,

DF
drugfather
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: mito on December 26, 2011, 11:31 pm
If you're admitted to ER and a blood and urine sample taken from you, are doctors obliged to inform LE if they found any trace of MJ, cocaine, mdma, etc?

Supposing you weren't involved in an accident or any crime committed.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 26, 2011, 11:42 pm
If you're admitted to ER and a blood and urine sample taken from you, are doctors obliged to inform LE if they found any trace of MJ, cocaine, mdma, etc?

Supposing you weren't involved in an accident or any crime committed.

No. Most of the time, they aren't even looking for drugs in your blood. If your doctor asks if you support a drug habit or have done any drugs recently, it's important that you tell them to help you for the better.

Psychedelics particularly don't pertain to this sort of question as most of the psych's are found in such low levels in the blood it's highly expensive to even test for it.

I openly tell my doctor everything I do and she knows to where she can better treat me as a patient. She isn't obligated to inform LEO of anything. If she chose to, well I'd be fucked.


It all depends on the particular situation you're being tested in.

-DF
drugfather
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: PriscillaMarie90 on December 26, 2011, 11:53 pm
If you're admitted to ER and a blood and urine sample taken from you, are doctors obliged to inform LE if they found any trace of MJ, cocaine, mdma, etc?

Supposing you weren't involved in an accident or any crime committed.

Yeah, drugfather is absolutely right. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to share any information like that with ANYONE, including the police, unless there is a very good reason to do so? Doctor-patient confidentiality and whatnot? But correct me if I'm wrong.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: mito on December 26, 2011, 11:57 pm
^^^ Unless, of course, you were involved in a serious accident, DUI, violent crime, etc.

In such cases they _must_ inform LE, correct?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 27, 2011, 12:38 am
^^^ Unless, of course, you were involved in a serious accident, DUI, violent crime, etc.

In such cases they _must_ inform LE, correct?


Mostly, yes. For example: you go into the hospital with a bullet in you and they find illegal substances in your system. In this case, yes they would have to inform the LEO due to the nature of the accident not only because the bullet would be a precursor for illegal activity but so would the drugs in your system. It might tack on a few charges... you see where I'm going with this.

As far as a self admission to the hospital or non-critical incident they wouldn't have to report to LEO.



There are in some cases such as OD's that they wouldn't report you to LEO even when copious amounts of drugs could be found in your blood.

It all depends on the case in which you were admitted. For the most part you're safe. :)
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 27, 2011, 12:45 am

In fact, I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to share any information like that with ANYONE, including the police, unless there is a very good reason to do so? Doctor-patient confidentiality and whatnot? But correct me if I'm wrong.


Yes you're correct. I had to sign a confidentiality contract such as all patients do once they reach the legal age to obtain the right to consent to contractual agreements.


But as always, contracts can be broken. There's nothing stopping her from picking up the phone and anonymously tipping me off to local LEO.


As a doctor, that's highly unethical. Remember. Primum non nocere.  "First, do no harm." I don't know about you but a felony drug charge is pretty harmful :P

-DF
drugfather
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: rise_against on December 28, 2011, 05:39 am
did some research thru google and it appears there's nothing  out there that will purify your hair. every product sold for that purpose is just a scam.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: caffeine_me on December 28, 2011, 06:28 am
Wouldn't bleaching the hair....then if needed, recolor.

Or just shave it?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: PriscillaMarie90 on December 28, 2011, 09:26 am
Wouldn't bleaching the hair....then if needed, recolor.

Or just shave it?

LOL That would be so fucking funny if you showed up to a hair follicle test with a shaved head. I know that's probably not what caffeine_me meant, but when i read it I just imagined being on probation or something and meeting with my probation officer with a bald head.. There would be nothing they could do, right? Lol it would would give you more time to figure out a better plan. Does that count as tampering with evidence or something?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 28, 2011, 02:53 pm
Wouldn't bleaching the hair....then if needed, recolor.

Or just shave it?


Yeah actually this is accurate. Bleaching it would kill the hair and along with any traces of anything.


Rebellious \m/

-DF
drugfather
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Dobbs on December 28, 2011, 08:41 pm
I think in New Jersey, USA if you are pregnant they automatically do a series of drug tests and if you are positive report it to child protective services...
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: jimmy69 on December 28, 2011, 11:30 pm
I know some people who have od'ed, taken a ride to the hospital with dope on their person and ended up with possession charges...
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Toxicophilous on December 29, 2011, 12:06 am
Wouldn't bleaching the hair....then if needed, recolor.

Or just shave it?


Yeah actually this is accurate. Bleaching it would kill the hair and along with any traces of anything.


Rebellious \m/

-DF
drugfather

1: Hair isn't "alive". It's dead already... inert material. Not even cells.... There's nothing to "kill" so bleach does exactly jack shit here.

2: Just because you might halogenate some traces of drugs embedded in the keratin/protein material of the hair itself, doesn't mean that it still can't be detected so what you said was basically just bullshit.

Shave. Period. And use a depilatory to take the hair substance all the way down to the follicle. What? they gonna do surgery on you to remove follicles?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 29, 2011, 01:05 am
Wouldn't bleaching the hair....then if needed, recolor.

Or just shave it?


Yeah actually this is accurate. Bleaching it would kill the hair and along with any traces of anything.


Rebellious \m/

-DF
drugfather

1: Hair isn't "alive". It's dead already... inert material. Not even cells.... There's nothing to "kill" so bleach does exactly jack shit here.

2: Just because you might halogenate some traces of drugs embedded in the keratin/protein material of the hair itself, doesn't mean that it still can't be detected so what you said was basically just bullshit.

Shave. Period. And use a depilatory to take the hair substance all the way down to the follicle. What? they gonna do surgery on you to remove follicles?


<sarcasm></sarcasm>


Does anyone know how to take sarcasm these days :') hahahaha
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: rise_against on December 29, 2011, 05:35 am
yeah, read that bleaching still leaves all traces of toxins in your hair.   you could shave your head, but they will just take hair from your eyebrow or armpit or some other place. Maybe a bathtub full of Nair is the only answer.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: mito on December 30, 2011, 02:04 pm
I know some people who have od'ed, taken a ride to the hospital with dope on their person and ended up with possession charges...

Was this in the US and A?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on December 30, 2011, 09:29 pm
I know some people who have od'ed, taken a ride to the hospital with dope on their person and ended up with possession charges...

Was this in the US and A?

Highly doubt it... but if so may I stand corrected. :o
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Dobbs on January 07, 2012, 04:48 pm
Well, the drug test for hair follicles is an absorption test.  The take your follicle and dip it into some chemical (don't know the name) and if your follicle absorbs the chemical then it has the drug in it. 

If you can seal the follicle and stop it from absorbing anything this would be the best thing.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: onestopshop on January 07, 2012, 06:53 pm
This has got to be the most silliest test for drugs EVER, I know lots of people (in US) that have been subjected to this test and they use the SAME EXCUSE every time...

"My friend's smoke e.t.c"

seriously...if they find drugs in your blood/piss e.t.c then fair enough your pretty much fucked (unless you get those $30 drinks that clear your piss out temporarily before the test)

 but a hair test? c'mon there's SO MANY variables that can affect whether or not your using it would be idioitic to use it as concrete proof...
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: uniwiz on January 07, 2012, 07:23 pm
If you're admitted to ER and a blood and urine sample taken from you, are doctors obliged to inform LE if they found any trace of MJ, cocaine, mdma, etc?

Supposing you weren't involved in an accident or any crime committed.

Yeah, drugfather is absolutely right. In fact, I'm pretty sure it's illegal for them to share any information like that with ANYONE, including the police, unless there is a very good reason to do so? Doctor-patient confidentiality and whatnot? But correct me if I'm wrong.

Yes in the USA we have laws protecting your privacy.
Your are a fool if you think if somebody wants that info, they won't get it.

I caught my large employer doing this, even got a HR rep fired for it. (More than once ;))
The trick is to catch them right handed, otherwise, prove it, or you don't even know.
Do NOT trust the government, or large corporations to keep your info private.

Yes you should tell your doctor, but trust it won't get it out?. Don't kid yourself.

Case in point my brother.
Admits to all his drug use.
Weed, coke.... lots of weed, mainly.
Dr says "Why did you tell me that?"
My dumb ass brother, because I thought I was suppose to?
Dr says "Ya, but now I have to write it down, kid"

What does that tell you?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: fizzy on January 09, 2012, 01:27 am
This site has a summary from the lab's perspective:
http://www.drugtestinfo.com/faq.htm and scroll to "Hair Testing"

This was interesting:
http://www.x-pertise.com/x-pertise.com/News_files/SoHT%20Guidelines%20FSI%20online%2016NOV11.pdf

as was this:
http://svmsl.chem.cmu.edu/vmsl/cocaine/ch_bg4.htm

I hope you were not fond of having shiny, bouncy hair...

The environmental smoke argument doesn't fly; there's a wash process specifically for external contaminants, and the threshold for various drugs/metabolites is set sufficiently high that you'd have to more or less live in a haze to break it.

Bias alert: It's actually a -pretty good- test, better for its purpose than most screening UAs. It's just a stupid thing for employers to do, unless your job for some legitimate reason requires abstinence and sobriety. [/bias]

Reports:
As drugfather wrote, a standard hospital UA+ tox screen isn't going to be reported.

I only know a few states, might be different elsewhere. In the facilities in which I've worked, we're not going to report a UA+ tox screen, not even automatically in conjunction with a gunshot wound, knife wound, other assault, or car accident. LE has to subpoena the records, and, more importantly, LE has to get its own samples (we might let them draw from our line, or we'll draw the tube and hand it directly to them, but we do not store them, by and large.) The devilish details come in as to where and when LE can demand access to the patient to get those samples.

A hospital tox screen does not meet forensic standards. There is no chain of custody for standard labs. It is usually a simple UA dip and is often unobserved if not a cath sample. A hospital BRAC for alcohol is not routinely certified. They're clinical tools, not LE tools.

+UA in late pregnancy is reported under "mandated reporter" exemptions. If charges are filed against the mother, LE has to collect its own samples.
There are various exotic "yeah, but, what if" cases - someone is driving and wrecks, and a vulnerable person (kid, demented elder) is injured, and the driver is also treated and his/her UA tox is positive, then that would be a mandated report as well.
In some places, a +UA on a licensed professional may require report to their licensing board; not in others. This would be very much YMMV.

I have seen a LOT of self-induced poisonings, and I have never called LE to report ZOMGDRUGS. We just throw out the drugs (we are equal opportunity about this; we pour out ethanol and we don't give back rx from partial ingestions either.) We will be very pissed off if someone is carrying sufficient substance to endanger our staff if someone wants to come after it with great passion, as has happened a few times. This is part of why everything is wasted out via pharmacy instantly now, even in large quantities. But - we don't call it in, why would we? You think we have time to call this in and deal with LE and their paperwork? Ahahahaha. No.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: onestopshop on January 09, 2012, 01:53 am

The environmental smoke argument doesn't fly; there's a wash process specifically for external contaminants, and the threshold for various drugs/metabolites is set sufficiently high that you'd have to more or less live in a haze to break it.


Sorry mate, can you elaborate on this point I know your saying that the excuse for "my friends smoke" doesn't fly but I don't get the last part of what you mean..you mean the tests will even be able to differentiate a small amount of passive smoke to a large amount?
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Kali Kross on January 09, 2012, 05:16 am
I have watched countless friends/family/girlfriends get drug tested for one reason or another and fail. The only way to pass is to research how long each drug you plan to consume will stay in your system. Then give enough time for them to leave your system. Weed is 100% a NONO if you expect a drug test within maybe 14 days. I wouldn't smoke weed at all if I anticipated a future drug test. Some drugs that get out of your system soon: Spice, no time in system, Heroin 3 days, cocaine 3 days, meth 3 days, opioid pain pills (aside from opioid used in addiction therapies such as methadone suboxone etc) 3 days, LSD no time. (off the top of my head)
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: fizzy on January 09, 2012, 06:33 am
KK - Re: above - hair tests are tricky. Something ingested won't show up in hair for 7-10d. But after that, as long as hair is still present, substance is around for (potentially) a long time. The reason that they are pretty good tests for what they are is that things don't automatically wash out in 3d, etc.
The issue with synthetic cannabinoids is that there are just plain too many compounds for testing, it's a moving target. At least 'round here, military base is testing for some of them, won't even hazard a guess. Last I heard they were using the standard Redwood Labs panel for screening (and bear in mind that my knowledge is probably out of date), or sending to NMS if they had a specific reason to be concerned.

onestopshop: As far as substance being present on the outside of the shaft, that's why there are different washes as outlined in the prior links.

As far as passive ingestion / 'second-hand' smoke leading to +metabolite, from the NTS site above:
Quote
In addition, any positive internal contamination (e.g. from passive inhalation or even poppy seed consumption) is distinguished from deliberate use by setting confirmation cut-off levels above those which can be produced by passive internal exposure. Hair has a significant advantage over urine in that a second sample can be used to validate the initial positive result, due to the 90 day detection window.

This is why testing in adults for the workplace is oriented towards metabolites and parent/metabolite ratios (such as looking for amphetamine/methamphetamine, rather than methamphetamine alone).
I am not a pathologist - perhaps one will happen along to explain more.
Their thresholds are also set at a moderate level, sufficient that secondhand ingestion wouldn't really hack it as an explanation per my discussion with toxicology.

See this article for a pretty good discussion of typical issues in testing:
http://jpet.aspetjournals.org/content/313/2/909.full#ref-31

On  the other hand, this article brings up a few interesting questions. I am not familiar with this journal or this author, and so I don't know if this is the equivalent of something in Medical Hypotheses.
http://www.surveillance-and-society.org/articles1/hairreview.pdf

Pretty clear that 'cosmetic treatments' have a significant effect, though - which anyone who has had or watched foils being put in could have said...

INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF LEGAL MEDICINE
Volume 110, Number 3, 159-163, DOI: 10.1007/s004140050056
Influence of the cosmetic treatment of hair on drug testing
C. Jurado, P. Kintz, M. Menéndez and M. Repetto
Quote
An important issue of concern for drug analysis in hair is the change in the drug concentration induced by the cosmetic treatment of hair. The products used for this treatment are strong bases and they are expected to cause hair damage. As a result drugs may be lost from the hair matrix or, under conditions of environmental contamination, be more easily incorporated into the hair matrix. We investigated the effects of cosmetic treatment in vivo by analysing hair samples selected from people who had treated their hair by bleaching or dyeing before sample collection. All of the subjects admitted a similar drug consumption during the time period for which the strands were analysed. Samples were viewed under a microscope to establish the degree of hair damage. Treated and untreated portions from each lock of hair were then selected, separated and analysed by standard detection procedures for cocaine, opiates, cannabinoids and nicotine. In all cases the drug content in hair that had undergone cosmetic treatment decreased in comparison to untreated hair. The majority of the mean differences were in the range of 40%-60% (cocaine, benzoylecgonine, codeine, 6-acetylmorphine and THC-COOH). For morphine the mean difference was higher than 60%, and two cases (THC and nicotine) differed by approx. 30%. These differences depended not only on the type of cosmetic treatment, as bleaching produced higher decreases than dyeing, but also on the degree of hair damage i.e. the more damaged the hair, the larger the differences in the concentration levels of drugs.

To my very limited knowledge, hair tests can't quantify use beyond crude 'above/below threshold' or physiologic/nonphysiologic ratio of parent/metabolite. But, yes, there is a difference between a small amount of passive smoke and... a lot more smoke than that.

Where's that pathologist? :)

--f.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Kali Kross on January 09, 2012, 06:49 am
Don't worry about all the dumb shit people are posting about hair tests. They are just talking for nothing. No one tests your hair for drugs unless you are getting a top secret clearance to guard nuclear weapons maybe lol. NO STATE administers hair tests for any reason to people on probation. Maybe 99.9% of all jobs don't even have the option of administering a hair test. A urine test is the only test that really matters for probation/jobs/government benefits and anything else drug tests are given for.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: rise_against on January 09, 2012, 09:46 am
i disagree.  hair / follicle tests are becoming far more common than you think because most drugs are out of your blood/urine in about 72 hours.  just do a google search and you'll find many stories of people being follicle tested and trying various detoxifiers, shampoos, muds, etc. to try and pass their drug test and none of them work.  they are all scams. fortunately my drug(s) of choice are common prescriptions and i was able to find a doctor kind enough to prescribe them to me. problem solved....
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: SpaceChimp on January 09, 2012, 05:09 pm
Hair tests are hard to beat. Urine tests, however, are painfully simple, so long as you get synthetic urine. The vitamin drinks are a recipe for disaster, since they don't always work. So, grab the synthetic urine from the headshop or interwebs. Put in tight underwear, to be heated by body heat on way to test, and there you go. In an intimate situation, like with a probation officer, fake genitalia are also avaiable, with the same concept. Its always worked for me.

Except... the time I was in a hurry, heated it up in the microwave for a few seconds, took the test, and the dude says, "oh, sorry, you're gonna have to retest." I asked why, and he said the temp was too high. "well, i've been running a fever the past couple days so..." and he says, "yeah, but its 113.7F." I just started laughing, right there. So don't make my mistake, use the heating pads to heat it up if anything.

Come to think, these types of products would probably sell well here.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: fizzy on January 09, 2012, 07:47 pm
Don't worry about all the dumb shit people are posting about hair tests. They are just talking for nothing. No one tests your hair for drugs unless you are getting a top secret clearance to guard nuclear weapons maybe lol. NO STATE administers hair tests for any reason to people on probation. Maybe 99.9% of all jobs don't even have the option of administering a hair test. A urine test is the only test that really matters for probation/jobs/government benefits and anything else drug tests are given for.
With respect, my job required a hair test, and periodically still does require them. I most certainly do not have a "top secret clearance." I don't even have a key to the door - they know I'd just lose it.
My employment contract specifies what can and can not be included on the test, and how high the thresholds are.

There has been some real pressure for hair testing to become the standard for DOT physicals, and there were (of course) many hearings re: this over the past year. As "federal policy" and "glacial pace" are generally hand-in-hand, I don't anticipate this will change any time soon. However, the private carriers' *insurance companies* are starting to require hair tests for drivers. This is where you'll see a rapid change. The labs are entirely happy to support hair-test-as-confirmatory or as the the new standard.

I don't know about FAA physicals, I don't hang out with flight surgeons much. Anyone? I can ask around.

Hair testing is becoming increasingly common in the child protective system (in which there is also a market for tests that look specifically at the external exposure, not the metabolites), as well as in monitoring for impaired professional programs. It's a fairly good method if someone is looking for longer-term use patterns in a person who has enough self control to abstain long enough to give a clean UA.

The technique is becoming more common, and cost will come down accordingly. I think it's almost inevitable that it will become common (although not the first/default - still takes too long) in the corrections/rehab system. Without corrupting the examiner, it's pretty hard to feign. Grafts/plugs are obvious, expensive, and hurt like a son of a bitch.  Samples can be collected right there at the desk. They're easier to store. No issues with "shy bladder." No urine-collection-storage infrastructure. If I were in corrections (I'm not) and were trying to manage scarce resources, I guess I'd tailor the technique to the client, UA for the more impulsive/disorganized, hair test for others, and give the more organized people enough time to accumulate sample in hair.

As far as "really mattering" - We might have had somewhat different experiences. In my world, for anything with consequences, a urine dip/screening assay is not meaningful, with the exception of cocaine metabolites (which are... pretty clear cut.) A confirmation with GC/MS is more helpful and less susceptible to interference, if it was collected appropriately.

I think of somewhat different clearance times for substance than the ones you've listed (presumably for urine, and not for hair.) Heroin/6-MAM per se, for example, is detectable for hours, even if morphine/opiates are present for longer.

This article is a fairly good overview /reference of current urine screen status - it's one of my first go-tos. For specific test false pos/neg, though, it's essential to go to the manufacturer's insert.
http://www.mayoclinicproceedings.com/content/83/1/66.full

So: to which of the specific dumb shit above were you referring when you said "don't worry"?

Because I do worry. A lot.  There are a few times and occupations in which I see substance screening and monitoring as warranted in a workplace setting. For many jobs, it strikes me as unnecessary intrusion and something that is substituted for a thoughtful interview and reference check. Worried about a potential employee's ability to show up or thievery potential? *Ask.*  Not a difficult idea, really.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: Kali Kross on January 10, 2012, 07:35 am
lol ok..........I dunno what you guys are doing that you get hair tested lol. But in 10 years and at least 12 different people including myself I never even heard of someone getting drug tested. Not for court not for a job not for any reason.

I have taken drug tests in jail, for a job, for probation and no1 even hinted that a hair test should be done. In drug rehabs they dont even test your fucking hair lol.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: rise_against on January 10, 2012, 09:13 am
you probably live in an area that doesnt have the technology or manpower to follicle yet. maybe you live in kansas.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: PriscillaMarie90 on January 10, 2012, 10:29 am
maybe you live in kansas.

LOL, that cracked me up!
I agree, I don't know what part of the world you're on but where I'm living it's becoming more common for some reason. I think it's fucking retarded to make people take hair follicle tests to keep their jobs though. If it wasn't apparent that they were on drugs for the past 3 months, then why the fuck does it even matter..
I don't know, but anyway, my lawyer wanted me to take a hair follicle test in 3 months, but instead I'm taking a urine test every month or so. Wink wink.
Title: Re: passing a drug test
Post by: drugfather on January 10, 2012, 11:35 am
you probably live in an area that doesnt have the technology or manpower to follicle yet. maybe you live in kansas.

One of the most excruciating drives in my lifetime was in Kansas where the state tree is a telephone pole.

-DF
drugfather