I want to talk about something that concerns all of us. We've all heard about it, we all have an opinion on it, and some of us even use it. I'm talking about
Tumbling
What is it? Who needs it? Why?
I've been on the hunt for answers and have obtained very few facts. I mod this sub and the noobs sub and need facts in order to properly answer questions about theses services. The advocators of tumbling accuse me of just looking for a fight. This is true, I am indeed fighting for answers with the very people who accuse me of fighting.
There are many users that I can say with 100% certainty do not need to tumble. This would include:
Anyone that has mined the coins themselves. (These coins are not tied to their identity in anyway. How would tumbling help them? What would they be obfuscating and from whom?)
Anyone who has purchased the coins with cash. (Again, these coins are not tied to their identity. What would they be hiding?)
Anyone who is only worried about an exchange user account being closed (An intermediary wallet like the one on tails will prevent this. There is no way of knowing who owns a wallet like that. There are post here where people had their accounts banned because they sent it to a tumbler. The solution from the advocates, "use an intermediary wallet!")
LBC users who only fear their accounts being closed. (LBC is not an exchange and does not sell coins. Vendors sell the coins, LBC is only the platform. Not one LBC account has been closed for reasons discussed here)
BTC atm users and LibertX users who pay with cash (these coins are not tied to the users identity)
In this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5muyvd/bitcoined_ypu_mined_yourself/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit, a guy asked if his coins needed to be tumbled even though he mined them himself 5 years ago. Some user tells him yes. But when asked why, he had no idea. "peace of mind" was his only reason. He even argued with me and afterwards deleted his account. If a mechanic tells you he can fix your car, he should at least be able to tell you what's wrong with it.
Here is another example of a person with anonymous coins not knowing why he should tumble. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarketsNoobs/comments/5na3mt/safety_first/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. His reason was because "somebody told him". Every social engineer knows that **if you tell a lie long enough, it becomes the truth. I believe this is exactly what has happened in this community.**
Here is a post that had a very tricky title. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n1hpu/tips_for_maximizing_safety/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=user&utm_source=reddit. It seemed to be about security and OpSec tips, but quickly turned into an advertisement for GramsHelix with a quick edit and a few comments from the OP.
Someone made a post the other day and summoned me to it wishing to discuss this very topic. I joined in and summoned The moderatores and Operators of GramsHelix to the discussion. I watched as that post was hit with a shilly barage of downvotes. I think it had something to do with my initial comment. https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n2llv/on_the_usefulness_of_tumbling/ I didn't get a response from the main advocates of tumbling until a little while ago, when the post was all but forgotton and hardly seen.
I have my reasons not to ever trust a service like gramshelix.
Money laundering is a high priority to many three letter groups (even more sought after than drug dealing)
They are a completely unknown third party. (A cardinal rule of privacy advocates everywhere is never to trust unknown third parties. Calling a sevice like that "trusted" is shilly propaganda)
They could be police. (SilkRoad2 is an example of how this is a possibility. Anyone remember this article? http://www.ibtimes.com/interpol-built-its-own-dark-net-drug-marketplace-cops-posing-dealers-2089299. This all went down around the same time as the Oasis debacle. Those swing-set-sniffers from playpen know what I'm talking about. Cops will allow crimes like drug trafficing and the trade of sick kiddie shit to collect data. Fast and furious allowed guns that killed LE. Why wouldn't they do the same for money laundering? Gotta connect the dots somehow. Investigations can last years. LE crave and survive on information.)
They operate a money laundering service on reddit. (A clearnet site /r/grams)
While operating a money laundering service out in the open, they ask users to send transaction ID's via pm's and never ask for PGP or ask for PGP keys. (linking a crime like money laundering to a reddit account is dangerous and kind of defeats the purpose. The low hanging fruit of SilkRoad2 were gobbled up in the aftermath)
Their "service" breeds scam sites, phishing links and dedicated mock scamming subs (/r/GramsHelix is filled with phishing links and even has an active team. How convenient.)
Multiple complaints on this and the noobs subs (have a look using the search function on reddit. Some even claim they know they were on the correct URL)
The owner and operator of grams helix told me himself: "Yes there are ways to tumble your bitcoins for free or almost free." in this post https://www.reddit.com/r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5n2llv/on_the_usefulness_of_tumbling/dcag1cc/?context=3&utm_content=context&utm_medium=message&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=frontpage(If anyone is serious about privacy, they won't trust a completely unknown to not analyze their coins through a false sense of security. They will look for a way to do it themselves.)
The biggest argument I hear is "taint analyis". Good point too. But telling people they need to tumble because coins can be traced back to them is absolute **F.U.D! There has never been a shred of evidence that BTC have ever been tracked back to any Marketeer. Not one single arrest has been made due to BTC being traced back to an illegal transaction ever. Telling people that the "FuturePolice" might catch them, so they better tumble their .3btc is total bullshit! There is no facts what so ever in all those possibilities or theories.**
So with the information I have available, I have a list of people who should use tumblers:
People who are afraid of being tracked back to their illegal transaction (even though money laundering increases the laws broken and there has never been proof that this is even possible)
People who are too stubborn, or too lazy to actually investigate thier reason and would rather let complete strangers tell them what to do. (Some of them can't help it because it's been preached as gospel around here. There will always be sheep. If you tell a lie long enough, in the minds of the people, it becomes the truth.)
A tumling service owner (Raking in all those hard un-earned coins has got to be fun.)
A law enforcement agency, interested in luring in Marketeers through a false sense of security, in order to perform analysis on the coins that move through their site, to better understand the way BTC moves along during an illegal transaction. (using this tactic would also allow them to study online money laundering at the same time. Carnegie Mellon is on the governments payroll)
If you have something to add or discuss, please comment. This community requires real answers regarding this subject. It involves every Marketeer.
This is how sevices like tumblers convince an entire community that tumbling is necessary: https://i.sli.mg/1AxNsf.jpg Please look at that link closely and then come back to this post and see if you notice any of these tactics used by some of the users in the comments.
I would like to say the main reason I tumble is for privacy. I don't like the idea of my coins being followed through a public block chain. By eliminating the trail I eliminate unnecessary evidence floating around.
You really need to start getting your facts straight. Your claim of intermediary wallets is completely unverified and is a terrible recommendation, the worst I've ever seen a mod give. The amount of posts for people being banned by sending to a tumbler is minuscule and becomes irrelevant when compared to the the amount of people who've been banned from sending it directly to DNMs and intermediaries. Sending it from a exchange tied to your name means you absolutely need to clean your coins some how.
You picked some random idiots in the noobs sub to make a point? What in the lords name does this prove about anything.
Really stretching. That guy is retarded look at his post history.
You got down votes because you made wild and ridiculous claims about grams. While at the same time grouping it into the same place as a known scam subreddit which highlighted your lack of knowledge on the subject. A subject you claimed to be looking into by comparing the admins but failed to realize that the usernames were different making your claims ridiculous. No shills required to down vote this.
Yeah and so is tor and all our encryption stuff. Same stuff is used by terrorists, pedophiles, weapons/human traffickers and government spies. All this stuff is top priority for every government intelligence agency across the world.
u/pinochetHA had a great response to this
We all have to trust somebody, some more than others. Some have to trust different people due to circumstance.
You say this a lot but I've never actually seen you post proof. Even that link doesn't have anything to do with SR2. Remember what you said earlier.
So let's see some actual proof. No reason to believe the site was ran by LE. Yeah they'll temporarily run an already active an existing site to gather data and strike. Starting a new one from scratch is a different ball game. That link you posted was just a test. Have they advanced further? Who knows but it would take some massive justification and resources to start large tumbling service or a DNM which would enable kids to buy fent, heroin, meth, oxy, guns, cocaine, ketamine, molly and they might just get sent bunk shit and die even if they're careful, who could justify that?
edit: I realized I didn't finish this post so I completed it now, I'm on a hit of speed and I feel alive.
Are you being serious right now. Bitcoin isn't money no crypto-currency is and they never will be. They are a digital asset more akin to gold and oil, crypto is a lot easier to understand when you think about it as shares instead of coins. Tumbling is like putting all our gold bars in a box and switching them up to get new ones, no taxes evaded. You misewell stop using alphabay because they operate on here as well and post frequently.
You're gunna have to stop using all markets immediately. I'm terribly sorry.
Yes he told you this out in the open for all to see. Because it's the truth and there are other ways to do it. I can't tell if you post is an attack on tumbling or on grams specifically.
Do you wanna be the first? There's definitely instances that exist when it would be beneficial. The fact that nobody gets arrested for it is a terrible reason that sends a terrible message and would lead to a weakening in opsec standards.
Tumbling is not is not illegal
edit:that double is not on purpose but I think I'll leave it edit:wording, some grammar
SWEET SWEET GOLD FINALLY