So about multisig.. How is it safe exactly?

i am a buyer and i have done multiple sloppy multisig transactions now. its still a hassle compared to the SR1/2/Agora days and i dont think the majority will pick it up if all they want is to get high on the weekend. its more a vendor thing id say.

but lets get to the point i am trying to make. i have noticed that when you are using multisig you can EASILY follow the trail to your vendor. back in the SR days your coin would get semi mixed or at least a little fuzzed around. now imagine a cop buying from a vendor and he doesnt clean his coins and he sees that the coins are being sold on LBC or some cooperating exhange. that is your ticket to jail right there and you cant really come up with a story around it i dont think. back then you could come up with some bullshit as your coins were moving at least most of the time.

i am not really sure about this but what about your IP address? isnt it being leaked somehow during the multisig process? i have done mine in a internet cafe so even if subpoenad they can kiss my ass.

so if multisig fuckups mean most certainly jailtime why use it at all? let it be a thing for the huge vendors and let the rookie stoner who just wants his blunt on saturday use traditional escrow. if his 20 bucks get stolen by some site, i am sure he will live. i know its probably not the most popular opinion but... had to get it off my chest.

and a last minute idea: even if all sites were FE ONLY just withdraw your coins constantly to a safe address..... seriously that way damage would be minimal if a site goes cheney.


Comments


[6 Points] -SeedofChaos-:

It's as safe as you make it.

It puts more responsibility on you to know what you're doing.

I thought we liked freedom and not having our money stolen from us by markets and vendors?

"Oh, you mean we have to learn a bit and put some extra effort into something? Fuck it, we'll just keep bitching."


[3 Points] Vendor_BBMC:

I'm pleased that this debate is finally picking up speed:- In my opinion. multisg escrow will lead to vendors and their customers finally getting "busted-by-bitcoin".

Lets go back to the reason we use bitccoin for illegal transactions:- bitcoin addresses aren't tied to our name and address the way a bank account is. If nobody can say for sure "X wallet belongs to Mr Y", we have a good degree of anonymity.

Lets look at how bitcoin was handled by the Sik Road franchise, sheepmarketplace, and most "bitcoin buckets":-

The customer had a deposit address, and so did vendors, their bitcoin was handled the same. Your bitcoin was credited to you, but went into a big bucket with everybody else's, via a tumbler. Everybody's money in escrow was kept in another big bucket. When you released the escrow, the vendor just got "a" coin from the bucket - not yours. When the vendor did a withdrawal from the site, some coins from the bucket would be sent from a random address in the tumbler to his wallet. He then either tumbled it, or sent it straight to an exchange to sell.

Nobody could see on the blockchain where the coins were from, what they bought, and who got paid. If the cops targeted me and bought a gram of meth and released the escrow, my marketplace balance increased, but the bitcoin could be from anybody. Not just my customers.

The marketplace could just steal the lot at anytime, or tell me I can't withdraw my earnings because they liked the way drug money feels. It feels nicer than their 5% (paid by the vendor for them to administer the escrow).

Sheepmarketplace's owner did this to BBMC, and we made him regret it BECAUSE WE HAD A WALLET ADDRESS THAT WE KNEW FOR SURE BELONGED TO HIM. Game over - we followed the money through bitcoinfog to the exchange, where he was arrested much, much later.

If a vendor uses multisig escrow, he becomes Sheepmarketplace's owner. The cop buys a gram off me, funds the escrow, and when he releases the bitcoin IT'S HIS BITCOIN THAT I GET.

Later, in court wearing my suit, the cop holds up an evidence bag containing a gram of meth, and shows me (on the blockchain) moving his police bitcoin to an exchange., and a letter from the exchange confirming that it was me who sold the bitcoin.

In my opinion, marketplaces offering individual escrow wallets are incredibly naive Once the police know one of my wallets, they can work back to all of my customers, see them buying bitcoin on an exchange and know they have drugs arriving. Multisig markets can't mix our coins or have a tumbler. They can't use casino chips instead of bitcoin inside the marketplace like agora, completely dark on the blockchain apart from a tumbler in the casino car park.


[2 Points] TheRealRocketship:

i have noticed that when you are using multisig you can EASILY follow the trail to your vendor

This applies to any vendor who has their own website, or does direct deals, which is 99% of us. If vendors don't know to clean their coins, they dun goofed. I was under the impression that this was elementary knowledge, on the same level as vac-seal/MBB. Any vendors reading this that don't clean their coins, want to chime in?

i am not really sure about this but what about your IP address? isnt it being leaked somehow during the multisig process?

An IP address is associated with every bitcoin transaction, usually the node relaying your transaction. So, not necessarily but it's best practice to use something like Electrum with Tails/over Tor, or blockchainbdgpzk.onion/pushtx to push your raw transaction, or hell even a VPN.

Sending your coins to a market like Nucleus is more dangerous than to a multi-sig address because Nucleus is on walletexplorer, if a cop were to see your tx on the blockchain they would know you're sending to a market. Multi-sig addresses are generated on the spot and not associated with any market.

so if multisig fuckups mean most certainly jailtime why use it at all?

Direct deal fuckups mean most certainly jailtime. I can guarantee 100x more direct deals are happening right now than multi-sig. Multi-sig is safe because hundreds of multi-sig txs take place each block, and every one of them is the same: coins usually get sent from a 1... address to a 3... address, then back to a 1... address after a period of time. That's it, on the outside there's absolutely no way of knowing which multi-sig txs are drug deals and which aren't. Whereas if you send to a market, it can be seen on the blockchain using sites like walletexplorer to identify hot/cold wallets, etc. Some multi-sig implementations like EIC do have the 3... address pay out the market commission but that's not a problem at all, this is how most multi-sig txs work (why would a third party arbitrate for free?)

On every level whether it be vendor scams, market scams, or blockchain evidence, multi-sig wins. It wins like how PGP wins. At first it may take some getting used to, but it's better for all of us


[1 Points] octomarvel:

FE only markets.

I seriously hope we never devolve into these murky depths.

We just need a better implemented mutlisig market. One that works for customers and vendors both.

=)


[1 Points] fantasticnameuser:

Don't use a multisig, then. When you decide that you've been a good boy/girl, and you deserve a little extra, and then splurge, spend say $300 instead of $40, but the vendor scams you/market goes offline/package was shipped but didn't arrive and vendor says fuck off, you will wish you didn't FE. I use Multi-sig because the transaction can continue AFTER a market goes down. If you are using traditional escrow and the market goes down, you can kiss your money good bye because 99% of vendors won't ship, because they aren't going to get their money back.

It seems enticing, but that's because nothing has gone wrong for you. "nothing has gone wrong, I could have FE'd and this would be easier", but that doesn't matter. It's all about the time it DOESN'T go right you will wish you used multi-sig


[1 Points] ciphersexual:

Why wouldn't a vendor clean their coins?


[1 Points] TipTopHank:

here is another question: if the vendor fucks up, as in a cop got him through the transactions: doesn't that mean theres a good chance the customer gets fucked as well (because of the same transaction)?