Addressing Issues from Last Weekend

Community,

I know some think that nothing is going on because they don't see things happening, but the mod team has all been discussing the events that occurred over the weekend. We've also developed guidelines for mods which we believe will be especially useful to incoming mods. This post is not intended to get into the merits of tumbling. The one thing I will note as a general rule - there is rarely anything where one answer fits all. Everything we do comes with inherent risks. We play of a game of risk reduction. I don't believe any risk can be completely mitigated to nothing. I believe what we should do is illustrate the pros and cons of certain actions, debate the risks, and let those researching and reading apply those to their own situation. For instance, one thing I see debated is whether one should call USPS if a pack has a problem in transit. There is no "right" answer to this and the answer will vary depending on situation. Some will swear by never calling USPS and others will say you should. It depends. You have to weigh out the risks on your own situation and decide which action has the least risk. Calling USPS might be a good idea if you have the pack going to your home and you believe its a glitch or problem with the actual shipping (and not a seziure). By not calling, you risk the fallout from a RTS. Anyway, just an example where there is no one right answer for every situation.

One of the side effects from modding is that more weight is often given to a mod's post by the simple virtue of them being a mod. I would hope that most would understand that a mod isn't necessarily more knowledgeable than others in the community. The qualifications for modding deal mostly with curating content, monitoring posts for violations and obviously some passion in the DNMs is needed. While it is nice to have mods with a certain field of expertise, it is not an absolute requirement. However, there is a very real tendency for some to assume a mod is an expert when they voice an opinion. This realization comes with time. Remember, all of the mods were participants in the sub and interacted with the rest of the community, just like everyone else. A person new to the role of modding doesn't often realize this and even if so, it is easy to forget. This has reflected a hole in how we onboard new mods and I realize that I and the other veteran mods didn't do a good job orienting the newer members. As a result, we are working on adding to our mod wiki on certain things to be aware of when modding. Also, we are working on guidelines that will hopefully reinforce these things to be aware of when modding.

Everyone has made mistakes while modding. I still make them and have made bigger ones when I first joined. I like to think I have improved and not repeated earlier mistakes. I think my biggest mistake, which haunted me for a while, was my review of TheStimGuy, which actually was written before I became a mod. Also, I would often comment in posts asking about TSG, usually asking about late packs. I was trying to be helpful and would often reply trying to calm nerves. Looking back, I do realize that this could have been taken as some sort of endorsement, which by virtue of my mod role might be taken with greater weight than it should have been. I did so in good faith but I see where the appearance of endorsement or even the appearance of a conflict of interest might arise. I've learned from that and do not even engage on posts about specific vendors. Of course, my original review and these comments probably resulted in /u/Vendor_BBMC in spreading the rumor that I was TSG himself. So I paid for it and to this day, some people still believe this.

I don't want to "punish" someone who made a mistake in how they approached a subject when their intention was to stir some debate and interest. I don't want to dissuade interest. I believe the guidelines we are developing will help and honestly, some simple rewording of /u/Seraphim_X's post would have made it completely fine. Really, the only problem I saw with the post was that some in the community might take it as "expert" opinion by virtue of the mod role. Again, this is something learned because how the mod words or approaches the community changes from how they might have done it as a community member. I'm not debating the content of the post or debating the points made. I don't have a problem if someone has a controversial opinion. But I do think because of the mod role, strong opinions one way or another should be tempered and perhaps its safer to avoid making a conclusion outright and instead lay out the pros and cons of something and let the community debate. Again, its a change in approach on subjects. I don't believe the post was made in bad faith and I certainly don't believe that the intention of Seraphim was to put anyone in the community in danger as some have said. I do understand that some will think Seraphim's stance is incorrect. And that's fine. Debate it. Its fine if we disagree. I do believe reframing the original post would have eliminated most of the problems.

As a team, we've discussed ways to better onboard new mods so that they are aware of these nuances when modding. Because I've been here so long I often forget the challenges when joining the mod team for the first time. Recognizing this now, we are putting together a guideline which we hope will help new people when they join. I also want to remind the community that when they read something a mod has written, it should be taken as an opinion of a community participant and no weight should be applied to what a mod says by simple virtue of their mod role (unless it deals directly with the mod duties of the sub). Considering that this is easier said than done, the guidelines we are putting together will hopefully help. As a general guideline, it is usually better for a mod to avoid stating an opinion directly and instead lay out the facts and let the community debate. Its a nuanced art. Because this post is already getting long, I will stop but there is a second part which I will post probably tomorrow. The second post deals with the personal insults I saw back and forth in that thread. It will also outline improvements we are working on so that mods interact with the community in the most positive manner possible.

~Econ


Comments


[12 Points] None:

[deleted]


[7 Points] None:

However, there is a very real tendency for some to assume a mod is an expert when they voice an opinion

It's only natural. Especially when they put their thoughts accross in the way that mod did.

some simple rewording of /u/Seraphim_X's post would have made it completely fine

Fucking understatement right there. It was almost aggressive in tone.....

you tumble? You're ignorant

essentially.

Poor show. If it's controversy we're after just do what america did and make u/Pelican_Vendor head mod.

(no offence Pel, <B for the gold back when...).

It'd be shit if mods don't voice opinions. This whole thing was shit. Shit timing, shit content, shit response, shit witch hunting,

shit shit shit.

Should be u/TheDiplomatic1, ain't seen no economic advice =)


[3 Points] hhayn:

You have no thoughts whatsoever on how she reacted to those who responded to that post? Independent of the content of the post itself, nothing about that seemed to be inappropriate, out of line and bordering on childish? Mods need to be held to some sort of higher standard, I would argue. Something commensurate with their authority.

Obviously, our opinions on that matter differ substantially.


[3 Points] IGetDankShit:

Will the new mod guidelines be shared with the community so we have an idea of what we can and can't expect from the new set of mods? Also any updates on the state of the sub post?


[2 Points] biscoshreds:

While I respect the hell out of the mods for what they do, I really feel like this sub needs someone who can articulate and show what we are about like /u/theeconomist1 can before he leaves. Step up!


[2 Points] murderhomelesspeople:

The post was just in such bad taste, so much bullshit and hypocrisy. I felt u/Seraphim_X should have at least addressed how overblown it was, it was framed like a witch hunt with wording to match. The post got heated reactions because it was just as fiery and provided little proof for their own claims which is the one thing they've been asking for this whole time.

Hopefully the post tomorrow brings some closure to the fucking topic :) Tell me if I'm wrong but I do believe my conduct was within most reasonable limits that day.


[1 Points] Darknet_Retard:

Econ, I am interested if there is anything I could do to contribute to the sub in a bigger way in any area that is lacking. I've been a part of the public and private side of this sub for a long time now, and though I am not a moderator candidate, I would love to contribute in other ways!

Some ideas:

 

Please let me know if there is anything I could do--I love this place and would like it to be the best it can be :)


[0 Points] AutoModerator:

/u/Vendor_BBMC - You have been summoned in the thread /r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5orb7x/addressing_issues_from_last_weekend/ by /u/Theeconomist1.

This convenience is brought to you by AutoMod. Submissions do not automatically summon users like comments do. AutoMod is trying to be helpful.

For others, it should no longer be necessary to summon the referenced user in a comment any more. AutoMod has done the heavy lifting for you. You're welcome. Bow before me.

I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please contact the moderators of this subreddit if you have any questions or concerns.


[0 Points] None:

[deleted]


[0 Points] pinochetHA:

Seraphim_X offered a perspective on tumbling, in my opinion a somewhat incorrect one but still made some points that added value. She specifcally wanted discussion. The drama about this is bullshit. She didn't leverage her mod status which would have been inappropriate. She isn't forcing anyone else to do anything. Some of the responses given on the thread were dumb so they got downvoted and users openly disagreed. That is how reddit works, not through fucking witch hunts and burnings cause someone said something questionable.

If we are only annoyed cause she said some rude things to others and was mean about Grams then people need to take some time off reddit. Anyone who uses onions should get accustomed to the morally lax and dank atmosphere. Grams maybe was annoyed by the thread but I sure his bitcoins will comfort him and sing him to sleep at night.

One really important thing which Seraphim_X's thread was good for, which was ignored: Too much emphasis is placed on tumbling. It is like the bullshit being spread about VPNs being completely necessary for anonymity. Noobs love the concept of tumbling for the same reason they love VPNs, it makes them feel safe by outsourcing trust to a seemingly expert third party. It means they don't have to think about shit because the tumbler does the work for them and doesn't require any effort. Convenience opsec, or hiding behind a nice comforting curtain because it promises to be nice to you, will mean you are secure until you are not and the realization always comes after the fact.


[-1 Points] LostSomewhereInSpace:

TL;DR: Nobody's perfect.