DNM Moderator advocates looser OPSEC, shills against post calling it out

TL;DR A moderator made this post advocating for looser OPSEC and saying that almost nobody should tumble. I made a post yesterday calling this out and asking for the moderator to be removed, as I believe no moderator should be making such posts that undermine the OpSec of anyone who listens. Although the post generated a lot of discussion with over 100 comments, most of which agreed, the post had been shilled to 0 points and stayed on the second page of the subreddit. Below are more details and quotes from various users


Original Post


This is not a trolling post, this is not a witch hunting post, this is not a post with the intentions of harassing.

But can we please have a discussion as a community on whether or not we should entertain a person that advocates bad OPSEC practices as a community moderator?

It irks me that anyone would give the advice that tumbling is not necessary in "most" cases. It is necessary in all cases.

Post in question.

Can we take a vote on if we this person should be a moderator here? This is not to attack their character, but only to point out the bad advice they continuously post that is given legitimacy by being a moderator.

People will always give bad advice on this sub, but it should never come from a moderator.


Quotes from other users


from /u/SaintVengeance:

You're completely in the right here. Regardless of the opinions, here are the facts:

1) All (or least almost all) of the items bought on the darknet are illegal and carry some sort of jailtime, depending where you are.

2) We should all practice good OPSEC as a result and should ONLY encourage our friends/community to do so.

3) It's been proven that you can track all illegal activities using the technology from several years ago. In fact, you don't even need to know which wallets belong to the darknet markets- cluster analysis can easily pinpoint which ones do.

4) It's also been said, flat out, that had they tumbled, the chain would have been broken and it would have been much more difficult, if not impossible, to actually track them.

5) If you don't believe you'll be caught because you're not a big enough fish, fine. People have been caught with CD's for small amounts as well. Your safety, your opinion. But it's been PROVEN that your purchases on the DNM can be directly tracked back to you IF YOU DONT TUMBLE.

Another vote for demodding here.


From /u/hhayn :

I don't really care who the mods are as long as they do the fucking job. Part of that job means recognition of the reality that a lot of people reading this sub are going to perceive them as experts (whether or not they are/aren't or want/don't want to be seen as such). They definitely shouldn't be condemning something that they haven't shown to be ineffective or unnecessary.


From /u/ItsAllJustPretend:

No mod should EVER advocate for looser OPSEC. Whether anyone does it or not is up to them, but all advice should cater to be always to be as safe as possible.

Upvoted for demodding.


SQS for moderator, but you know what, I don't even want to be a mod, I'd rather not end up on someone's watch list, I just want what is best for the community, and she is not.


Comments


[26 Points] deep_touch:

While I agree that mods tend to be viewed as experts, regardless of accuracy, it doesn't mean they aren't entitled to taking a controversial stance.

It's healthy for the growth of the community to discuss controversial topics.


[19 Points] pinochetHA:

No thank you. Seraphim_X expressed an opinion. You and other people (including me) disagreed with that opinion. That is not a grounds for de-modding someone.

If someone big enough to attract legitimate LE interest altered their operations just because of a post on reddit without doing any background research they are dumb and deserve everything that is coming.

It irks me that anyone would give the advice that tumbling is not necessary in "most" cases. It is necessary in all cases.

Not correct. Tumbling is not needed for coins which are already anonymous. Small buyer who bought bitcoin using cash? No need to tumble that shit. Most small buyers are fine without tumbling period. There will always be lower hanging fruit if LE decide to go after small buyers so bitcoin taint won't even be significant. They will find weed in their house or something.

I disagree with Seraphim because she makes no distinction between threat levels which is not good. Some users definitely need to care about bitcoin being watched. That's what makes this drama so fucking unimportant. Anyone big enough to fall from poor bitcoin opsec is not going to be susceptible to reddit rants.

Also for anyone still doubting the need for bigger operations to handle bitcoin carefully: http://blog.cryptocrumb.com/2015/03/prosecution-futures-blockchain-evidence.html

There is precedent for it to be used as evidence. It would be unwise to ignore that.


[13 Points] bigbawlzxm:

The more I went back and forth with /u/seraphim_x about all this I started to get the vibe that we were all having different conversations. Not that tumbling doesn't work but that it's largely ineffective. Once you're being investigated, whether you sent Bitcoin to a tumbler or a market probably won't make much of a difference. Most of the time they're only investigating if they already have information about drugs or drugs in hand. In that situation, it seems that having tumbled your coins isn't going to do anything. They have the drugs with your name on it.

Hopefully this doesn't misconstrue your point. /u/seraphim_x


[9 Points] DooshNozzzle:

I am not sure that this is a democracy, the very essence of forums is more dictatorial in nature. But I'd be down with a vote lol


[6 Points] Teznaa:

would be nice if seraphim didng talk down to us like were all 14 year old druggies


[6 Points] wombat2combat:

seraphim made his initial post in a civilized way and provided many arguments. however some users went postal in the comment section and going over the top by violating rule 2. it is not a surprise that seraphim did not like it and responded to these comments not always appropriately [in my opinion].

but the problem is not that a 'mod encourages bad opsec', it is the way the community dealt with that topic. instead of having a civilized discussion about that topic it became such an unnecessary drama show where one unfriendly comment baits out an even more unfriendly comment. so in the future: if you talk about such opsec topics: stick to the topic and provide your best arguments and facts. that will show that you are mature and will never get you in trouble with the mods for violating rules. if you disagree with someone's opinion: tell them why you think they are wrong and provide arguments and facts.


[8 Points] exmachinalibertas:

From my reply to your other post about this:

Calling for him to be removed as mod is too much. The purpose of his post was to inform people about having appropriate threat models for their own situation, and to know when tumbling is probably necessary and when it is probably overkill. You may disagree with his assessments and want to err on the side of "rather safe than sorry", but his post certainly wasn't advocating bad opsec. I think he was trying to help people by explaining why we tumble, so people understand their overall opsec and make a better decision about why, and thus when, to tumble their coins. Sure it's safer to just always tumble, but it's also more effort and more costly, and you are just moving your point of trust from the exchange to grams (or whoever runs the tumbler).

I happen to agree with grams' counter, and even though it is right to point out that of course he will say you should tumble, since he makes money off it -- even so, I think his points were valid.

So while I too mostly disagree with Seraphim's post -- I would err on safe than sorry -- he certainly wasn't wrong in anything he said, and knowing when you don't need to use a tumbler saves a little time and money. Removing him as a mod is simply not warranted. He didn't give any bad advice, you just have a different threat model than he does.


[5 Points] Darknet_Retard:

I don't understand this at all. So what a moderator has a certain opinion on tumbling?

Moderator's jobs are to moderate the sub. This entire post just seems like you want a pat on the back for exposing some giant corruption plot against the sub.


[3 Points] oinkartltd:

a mod should never be advocating for such. the fact that a reporter is on this very thread saying "hey i had a long time association with this thread, i don't really have your best interests in heart, but i think tumbling is overkill too" reinforces why you should. your online 2 cents could affect someone's freedom. either give good advice or STFU imho


[3 Points] ferkolepu:

..


[2 Points] caliking321:

in his defense there is nothing wrong with bringing up issues. i dont really agree with this tumbling statments. but like i said in the original posts its good to have someone questioning everything were doing. we have been to quiet here lately. from what i remember he was mostly asking for PROOF these tumbling sites work. which i havnt seen and would like to. but again i tumble forsure.


[2 Points] travis-:

Seraphim reminds me of sabu from lulzsec. In that shes been compromised. Do you people think the le is going to ignore all the transactions being done 5 years from now when they stream line blockchain analesys? Theyre still arresting silkroad users so they can clearly wait. A mod shouldnt be advocating poor opsec. Well unless shes compromised.


[2 Points] PM_me_BTC_or_ETH:

If I were running a large operation, selling or buying for resale, dealing, etc. I would, without question tumble, as well as take a number of other precautions - drops, fake ID, etc.

If I were buying for recreational use, I wouldn't pay the 3% tax, as I'm a billion times more likely to get busted elsewhere.


[1 Points] AutoModerator:

/u/SaintVengeance - You have been summoned in the thread /r/DarkNetMarkets/comments/5o2teg/dnm_moderator_advocates_looser_opsec_shills/ by /u/ShitQuantikSays.

This convenience is brought to you by AutoMod. Submissions do not automatically summon users like comments do. AutoMod is trying to be helpful.

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[0 Points] None:

Only a paranoid 12 yearold with no understanding of Local Law Enforcement would think Tumbling is necessary in every situation.


[0 Points] I5uEQKrv4u5KR3fb7yyC:

what a thread, wants to demod someone for bring up a discussion thats argued a lot on here and edits his thread with quotes from three people who want him demodded to backup his view.


[0 Points] None:

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