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[–]reaperx2 1 point2 points  (7 children)

I'm almost positive the guy deleted it. I definitely remember a thread asking how to make ricin and then the guy returning claiming he was being watched by feds. If I was in his shoes I would have done the same thing. Search ricin on the forums and if there are no results then he deleted it because the title had "ricin" in it, that much I know. I think it was how to make ricin. I think I recall jack n Hoff mentioning something about that thread elsewhere so in theory you may find a second hand source, but jack n Hoff had 2K+ posts and I wouldn't want to read through all that. Maybe you could get his posts and search for ricin.

His (op on ricin thread) timing was terrible. Not his fault as he couldn't have for seen what would happen in the future. I think that OP was the first guy arrested, but turned out to be not involved. It makes sense and I remember him claiming he wasn't intending to make it. My guess would be he heard about it on breaking bad and was curious.

update: I tried searching and found nothing. I was surprised it didn't find jack n Hoff's thread or post regarding the issue. It could just be that the search is so terrible that its not finding it. When searching ricin I got results for pricing. I'll try to locate the jack n Hoff reference.

update2: The forums search function really is terrible. It failed to return this ( https://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=171340.msg1227121#msg1227121 )thread and it does have ricin in it, though it is part of an URL.

update 3: Searching ricin is essentially useless. I found another thread ( https://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=182012.msg1341806#msg1341806) that mentions ricin and this time it is not part of a URL. It is part of a sentence, but searching "ricin" shows no results. Clearly the search is shitty. Try searching for Obama and you may find jack n Hoff's reference. I don't know how you would find the actual thread because the search can't find threads with "ricin" in them and there are threads with ricin in them. If you have stexos forum backup you could do search through the contents to find ricin, I'm sure Linux would find references to "ricin". It'll probably take a while though cause there are 80,000+ files in that zip.

update4: finally some good news, I found jack n Hoff's thread that refers to that thread and the OP ( https://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=154883.0). The posters username was onionsone. He deleted his posts and his profile though. Perhaps you can find a cached version somewhere. Possibly Google. I'm pretty sure content from the forums can be cached on the clearnet through the onion.to proxy. At least you now have some information about that post.

[–]reaperx2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Damn it I just found that post on my own. At least I have the satisfaction of knowing I did this on my own without cheating. Now maybe you could find a cached copy of the post. I wonder if the onion.to proxy gets fully crawled and indexed. I tried Google, onionsone site:dkn255hz262ypmii.onion.to and I didn't get any results so it doesn't look like Google cached it. Maybe you can find it elsewhere. You have a lead at least and a second hand account from a trusted source.

[–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (3 children)

I think the threads gone permanently. I don't think Google crawled the forums completely (ie: robots.txt wasn't setup correctly or didn't exist). I tried way back machine and they didn't have a cached copy unfortunately. I agree with jack, I don't think he was involved after looking into the incident further. I do think oniosone was investigated by the feds. He made a post about how the feds were monitoring him and he did seem genuinely distressed. Not to mention he deleted his posts and account.

The ricin case looks interesting and confusing after some basic research. It looks like there are 2 different people who mailed ricin laced letters to Obama. The first incident, was done by Everett Dutschke. His case is interesting because he apparently tried to frame a rival of his. That guy was arrested initially, but was released because there was no evidence to link him. Anyway, there nothing that suggest either of these guys were involved in the silkroad or even drugs.

The second incident was done by Shannon Richardson. This case is interesting as well because she tried to frame her husband. Yes, thats right both ricin incidents involved one person framing another. Again, I see no connection between her or her husband and the silkroad or drugs.

In your research have you seen either of those names? That report is confusing. It talks mainly about the assassination plot the randomly drops in a statement about some relationship between a vendor and the ricin letter. I don't understand how there were arrests for both senders and neither of them have any connection whatsoever to the road. Seriously, both of those ricin letters seem sketchy as well, both had essentially the same MO and occurred roughly 1 month apart. Also, many people me included had no idea there were 2 separate incidents.

Another odd thing I noticed is there was an investigation into illegal money operations. Bitinstant was apparently involved and all of the assets for t cash ads (company who did bank transfers for bitinstant) were seized. This is news to me and kind of explains why they haven't returned. I'm a little surprised as well because after their big update they really improved their identity verification.

[–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

My bad. I just read the official statement. I do find some discrepancies. Neither of those people have any connection to the road. Read my updated post I removed that statement added some stuff.

I really find it odd that so many people only thought there was one ricin letter when there were two. The similarities in both cases make it more confusing. Something isn't right.

update I just realized this, but don't you find it odd that those posts disappeared entirely? Things usually don't disappear on the internet. The material was on tor, but Google managed to crawl and possibly cache other content on the onion.to proxy. Also, the forums search is not capable of returning results for ricin in find that odd. Moreover, the google search of the site is actually pretty good with many keywords for example mdma site:dkn255hz262ypmii.onion.to

Returns quite a bit of results

However, with ricin site:dkn255hz262ypmii.onion.to You only get 2 results that are unrelated to this story. That is to say jacks post does not show up

It certainly looks like something is being covered up. I don't think that is too far fetched.

[–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Who "makes" someone mail a ricin letter? That really got me wondering...what kind of he-made-me-do-it situation did she try and pin it on? I've seen people (selfincluded) do lots of terrible things in breakups/divorces, but it's just a lot healthier to bury yourself in a pile of drugs and self-hatred than cook up a revenge scheme involving ricin and the president.

Wonder if her therapist saw this coming from a mile away?

[–]reaperx2 1 point2 points  (0 children)

Found a new detail on onionson, it's small, but somewhat relevant as it rules him out from being involved.

http://antilop.cc/sr/users/scout/html/scout_posts_page_097_start_1440.html

Just search his user name and you'll see an nested quote of his where he claims he's glad he never opened a vendor account. I think its safe to assume he wasn't involved.

[–]reaperx2 1 point2 points  (1 child)

I think the "swatting" part is BS. It smells like parallel reconstruction to me. They definitely trying to cover up the fact that this fool posted a thread asking how to make ricin a few days before the story came out. This message really stuck out to me, it looks like he had poor opsec and basically doxxed himself.

https://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion.to/index.php?topic=154883.msg1081236#msg1081236

The feds sees this user posted a thread asking how to make ricin? If that one user was able to identify that person based on their posts then surely the feds can do so. I think the feds where trying to divert attention away from this guy. I'm sure one of NSA programs picked up that thread the moment it was posted and it triggered an investigation and they figured out who the dude was. That's how the feds were able to catch him so quickly because they knew who the OP was. Maybe they used Mr Curtis as a CI to catch the real guy.

[–]Jack_is_here 0 points1 point  (0 children)

Warning: You are using the clearnet gateway onion.to

[–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (7 children)

Was his ricin post before the news reported the incident? Also, government lie are you referring to? The USA government lies a lot.

[–]Jack_is_here 0 points1 point  (6 children)

Yes it was very shortly before one of the ricin incidents. Within days of the incident.

I was referring to a vendor shipping ricin to Obama. I do not believe that. I am aware that the US government lies a lot.

[–][deleted]  (3 children)

[deleted]

    [–]dreadly1217 0 points1 point  (2 children)

    I guess you all are confusing me because you keep talking about the woman that sent a ricin letter to Obama right around the time this guy posted on the SR forums. She did send a ricin letter to Obama, but in late May.

    Another ricin letter was mailed to Obama in April in a seperate incident. There were two ricin letters sent to Obama.

    [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Yeah, after some research I realized this. It seems very odd and both cases are so similar and occurred only a month apart. It certainly is one hell of a coincidence and obscures the whole situation.

    That report is odd too. It talks about the assassination plot involving Curtis Green then out of nowhere it mentions one of the ricin letters involved an SR vendor. The article then returns to the assassination plot. It almost seems like the second incident was a diversion.

    Seriously, this seems like some dod/hh/coachella/etc conspiracy.

    [–]dreadly1217 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I think the second case was probably just a stupid copycat crime. That woman probably saw it on the news and seized upon it as a great way to frame her husband. Too bad she didn't pay attention the fact that it was all figured out in 10 days.

    The report is really odd. The sentence doesn't seem to belong in that paragraph. Who knows, maybe it was copy and paste mistake from another document! I am very curious...

    [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    I agree completely, the statement reeks of bullshit. I think its an excuse for them to push legislation to regulate bitcoins more and possibly implement that tracing system you referred to on the forums.

    The second guy arrested with that weird ass name, I've never seen that name connected to a vendor bust.

    update: after some further research there is definitely something fishy going on. Read my other replies for more details. But, in a nutshell there were 2 ricin letters sent to Obama one month apart and they have nearly identical MOs. What are the odds of that happening? Also, the whole situation works in the feds favor because the cases obscure each other. It took some digging to actually figure out WTF is going on.

    [–]puaSenator 6 points7 points  (7 children)

    I think it's important for everyone here to know an open secret when it comes to the USPS/UPS/Fedex. Do you think the NSA isn't trying to track other traceable means, such as the post?

    The postal services take photos of EVERY parcel that goes through their mail centers. Every single one. Granted it doesn't tell you exactly which house mailed something out, but it gives them enough information to know which locality it was shipped out from. But that alone is a huge lead.

    [–]lucasjkr 0 points1 point  (3 children)

    Not likely the NSA. They are a very specialized agency, building a simple database is likely outside their area of focus. There are plenty of other agencies that would be more than up for the task, starting with the USPS themselves, the FBI, and o forth

    [–]puaSenator 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Maybe it's another agency, no one really knows. It's "top secret" but I don't doubt all the agencies share the information for whatever reason they need. I linked in another reply the google search that shows that it's happening. I wouldn't doubt the NSA, the group that loves keeping tabs on everything, has their fingers in there somehow.

    [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I think a post on the darknet asking how to make risin may have trigged some NSA program. That's the type of shit the NSA monitors. I think the NSA did play a role in the investigation.

    [–]lucasjkr 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    More likely they compared a scan of the envelope that went to the Whitehosue to other envelopes mailed from the same area, matched the handwriting and discovered they were already investigating the person. Meta data is a powerful thing!

    [–]AnomaDotNET -2 points-1 points  (2 children)

    Can you provide proof that they take photos of every package?

    [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 2 points3 points  (0 children)

    Came out in the public view a few months back. Don't worry though, I'm sure USPS_Helpdesk will be here soon to calm our nerves.

    [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 3 points4 points  (13 children)

    There's a neatly packaged narrative about terrorism in this little story. What used to be a couple of dumbshits sending poison to elected officials through the mail is now terrorism.

    Enter unverified claims about drugs, decentralized currency, darknet, oh boy the enemy has never been more clear.

    [–]BAXterBEDford 0 points1 point  (12 children)

    Personally, I've resented the commingling of assholes who were into weapons trades, hacking and all that shit with the drug market. So, in some ways, I feel like they are getting what they deserve.

    [–]LongLiveThe_KingIAMA Shill AMAA 0 points1 point  (11 children)

    Its a free market man, let the spice flow.

    [–]BAXterBEDford 0 points1 point  (10 children)

    And the nefarious associations they chose to keep help lead to that not happening. If you can't get a gun legally you shouldn't have one. Who do you need to kill that badly?

    [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 1 point2 points  (5 children)

    No no, they need that semi-auto for hunting. And because freedom. Anyways, I'm with ya buddy. Get your own damn darknet market. Guns Road, Gun down a sheep, Guns Reloaded. Leave us peaceful drugheads alone! BANG

    [–]BAXterBEDford 0 points1 point  (4 children)

    Ditto. And I'm not even anti-gun. I've owned them in the past. I'll probably own one (or more) in the future. I was an armorer when I was in the Army (where I actually developed my appreciation for weaponry). But people who are looking to get guns by some under-the-table means are usually the type of people who shouldn't have them.

    But regardless of that, as you said, get your own darknet market. One of the great potential benefits that SilkRoad had was to allow people who like to get a buzz to not have to associate with all the other fucked up ilk that goes with having to find it "on the street". They shit in the punch bowl when they allowed that element in.

    [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 2 points3 points  (3 children)

    I'm just anti-gun whiners at this point. They bitch and moan about Nobama or whoever the democrat in office is coming to get their guns, stockpile ammo cause that's certainly gonna be taken away any second now too. They've got one of the most powerful influential lobbies puppeteering the legislature yet they still carry on like they've been abused and subjugated at every corner. It's so simple to go to Arizona or Nevada and hit up a gun show for a no-questions asked private sale. 3d printed guns, hell why not make your own at home?

    Guess what gun whiners...nobody's coming to take our drugs, they already did. If you can't pass a background check to get something that tends to blow holes in people when the finger on the trigger turns crazy and violent then fuck you.

    Sorry, I'm ranting. Just having some flashbacks to the useless NRA hand-wringing and nonsense "debates" that pop up every time we get our quarterly mass-murder and some sad bastard whispers that it may be time to rethink the gun issue in the US.

    I bet you just love it when people try to paint you as a gun-hating libtard given your background ;)

    I fully admit that I'm a terrible excuse for a libertarian and should probably have my darknet license revoked for not seeing the issue in black and white terms

    [–]BAXterBEDford 1 point2 points  (2 children)

    First, I'm no libertarian by any means. I'm more of a social democrat. The ONLY thing I agree with them on is that there should be as much personal freedom as possible. I feel that if you are going to restrict people's freedoms regarding most things it should be for good reason, not just to make things easier for the government. I really see no reason for drugs to be treated as a legal issue at all. Most of the damage they do, both to society and individuals, comes from them being illegal to begin with. There are some individuals that are predisposed to to addiction problems, but that would probably be better handled as a healthcare issue than a legal one.

    But guns... they can be a real problem for people other than the ones that own them. They are a means for one person to kill another efficiently. Now, most people I think can be trusted with them. But I'm fucking tired of hearing about some mentally ill person that everyone knew was a mass murder waiting to happen just having to walk into a store and then blow away their family or a bunch of strangers. Same thing if some guy has an established history of serious violence. It's common sense people.

    I'm also fairly convinced that most of the drum beating about fear of having gun rights infringed upon is backed by gun manufacturers. It's been a proven tactic for drumming up sales. They just had a thing this past week on NPR about how gun manufacturers are whining lately because sales have been dropping because people are beginning to realize there isn't an imminent ban on guns going to happen.

    [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I guess I brought up libertarian because that seems to be the widely accepted political philosophy on the darknet. It's probably more complex than that. The handful of screwheads clamoring for rights to peacefully distribute child porn on darknet is in all likelihood a smaller group than they'd like to admit. And no this is not a "first they came for the childfuckers and I said nothing..." type of situation.

    I've heard the term 'Crypto-Anarchist' thrown around a few times.

    Unfortunately there are never any crypto-anarchists on my ballot to vote for. We have a shit system in the US. It sort of works, it works really well for a few. It's young and scrappy and you hope it can figure itself out but progress seems very slow.

    As you can tell I'm in agreement with you about drugs and guns and why they aren't one and the same in terms of personal liberty. The fraud garbage on the markets is annoying, but at least it probably isn't going to maim anyone.

    Interesting to hear thoughts on this, I suppose this subject could have its' own thread and probably already has. Here's something from the onion about gun massacres and the national reaction that is actually the saddest thing I may have ever read on their site - but well done nonetheless.

    According to the nation's citizenry, calls for a mature, thoughtful debate about the role of guns in American society started right on time, and should persist throughout the next week or so. However, the populace noted, the debate will soon spiral out of control and ultimately lead to nothing of any substance, a fact Americans everywhere acknowledged they felt "absolutely horrible" to be aware of.

    [–]LongLiveThe_KingIAMA Shill AMAA 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    I was just making a joke.

    I'm not getting into an argument with you, because no ones mind will change.

    [–]BAXterBEDford 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    OK

    [–]gtownbingo99 0 points1 point  (1 child)

    Shall not be infringed.

    [–]BAXterBEDford 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    Oh, the gun religion lobby.

    [–]reaperx2 3 points4 points  (2 children)

    The CDC states ricin can be toxic if inhaled, ingested, or injected. Although, with inhalation and ingesting it says you have to be exposed to a significant amount. I'm not sure how much a significant amount is, but its probably a lot.

    Source: http://www.bt.cdc.gov/agent/ricin/facts.asp

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (1 child)

    key word being CAN. for it to be fatal inhaled, one would have to inhale enough of it to kill enough lung tissue quickly enough (quickly is there key there) to kill enough lung tissue on contact (remember, this stuff is a peptide and a HUGE ass molecule, and will not be absorbed well though cell membranes) to cause respiratory failure.

    With eatin the stuff, it would be even harder as the stuff is immediately broken down the second it hits the stomach by the stomach acids and pepsin, rendering it rather harmless, in addition to the fact that it won't be absorbed in the stomach. And molecules that make it to the small intestines will be taken into the blood stream via active transport, IF and only if any make it that far.

    The Govt. actually LIKES the way the media vilifies ricin as being so super scary as it keeps the more IQ challenged terrorists from checking out toxins that would do a MUCH better job that can be harvested almost as easily (or, dependeing on where one lives, possibly even vastly easier) than ricin is to harvest. Non peptide stuff. No, i won't tell you all what.

    [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    That's what I figured.

    [–]RedwoodEnt 10 points11 points  (1 child)

    So... Lydia isn't dead???

    [–][deleted] 4 points5 points  (0 children)

    nope. replacing stevia with ricin would probably have done no more than give her some nausea for a bit.

    edit - not to mention, stevia is a sweetener and ricin is not sweet. Don't ya all think lydia might have maybe noticed that? That for some odd reason, after 2 packets of stevia, her chamomile is not at all sweet?

    [–]mystyc 14 points15 points  (8 children)

    Maybe he is really into homemade castor oil? :-p

    But seriously, can we all agree to NOT sending deadly toxins to powerful political leaders of emerging police states?

    EDIT: Thanks /u/3kixintehead

    [–]Milkslinger 18 points19 points  (4 children)

    emerging?

    [–]mystyc 3 points4 points  (3 children)

    It was a pun on the idea of "emerging nations", which are undeveloped nations that are on their way to becoming industrialized developed nations (India, China, et. al). The US is not yet a full police state, but I am confident that given the time and necessary motivation (i.e., bribes and corruption), I am sure the US will get there some day...

    [–]sublimeone 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Really could have fooled me.

    [–]anarchir 0 points1 point  (0 children)

    Seems like that day came and went.

    [–][deleted] -1 points0 points  (0 children)

    rofl

    [–]3kixintehead 5 points6 points  (0 children)

    Maybe you mean military-police state?

    [–]tehgreatblade 1 point2 points  (0 children)

    If someone really wanted him dead all they have to do is somehow get a drop of concentrated nicotine into his food/drink. .1 Gram of the stuff will kill you.

    [–]lucasjkr 2 points3 points  (1 child)

    What's interesting is that at the point that this was written, they had already seized $5.5 million dollars. Is this why the so many of the vendors in the Travelling the Silk Road report had such short "survivability" scores?

    What do you think about that, Gwern?

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.7139v2.pdf

    [–][deleted] 2 points3 points  (11 children)

    I knew we were discussing sending poop to customs but Ricin to the Prez? Between that and DPR's botched plan to "assassinate" someone I sometimes wonder about the street smarts displayed by people on the (former) road...

    [–]SoCo_cpp 2 points3 points  (9 children)

    Or maybe both are all just lies.

    [–][deleted]  (3 children)

    [deleted]

      [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Yes, here are sources for Everett Dutschke, they are the more reliable sources. The guardian mentions, that dutschkes public defender had to be changed due to a conflict with another client. Kind of odd.

      And here are the sources for Shannon Richardson.

      Sorrym I don't have more reliable sources. I mean they won't out right lie and make stuff up, but there is some bias. I do not have access to pacer so I couldn't obtain a pacer report. I seriously find it odd that none of the Richardson's articles mention anything about Dutschke case, which is very similar (both trying to frame someone and both mailed ricin to the president); his case was only a month earlier so I think it would be somewhat relevant to at least mention it.

      Anyway, its a good lead to look into as there is a 99.999% chance those are the two people responsible (for sending the letters; the first person Everett seems most plausible with the whole court thing being pushed back). The details however are still a little unclear. Also, like I said before I see nothing about drugs or SR. Though that information would probably be in court documents. I must admit it is difficult to figure out which person the report is talking about.

      [–]dreadly1217 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Gwern pulled Dutschke's criminal complaint off PACER and posted it early in the thread:

      http://www.reddit.com/r/SilkRoad/comments/1qqmbx/silk_road_vendor_sent_ricin_to_president_obama/cdfh8e4

      I'm not sure if it's worth pulling up Richardson's info off PACER though, as it states in that letter to Congress that it was "Of recent noteworthy interest..."

      [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Well, the make the detail very obscure. If I was going to lie I would do it that way because its more subtle thus people are less likely to notice it and actually question its validity. I'm glad you noticed it and posted it. I have a weird feeling about two people mailing ricin to the president just one month apart.

      Also, they are so similar that it kind of creates some ambiguity. You really do have to make an effort to actually figure out what happened and that there were 2 incidents.

      [–]jdoekdlr -1 points0 points  (0 children)

      Gwern is right. It is not a lie.

      The relevant question is who is this vendor? There was a lot of shit purged from SR and possible clues were included. I may find a trail within the next 12 hours.

      [–]reaperx2 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      I don't believe for one second that the lady that mailed that letter was a vendor. I'll admit someone did ask how to make ricin like a week before the story broke about Obama being mailed ricin. My theory is the first guy they arrested, who had no involvement or relation to real sender was the one who posted on the forums.

      [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Yeah, I think you nailed it. Poor ricin guy! He was just a curious Breaking Bad fan.

      All this talk of mailing dangerous powders to scare people is so early 2000s. Really hope we don't see a comeback of this. And the glamor shot of the stupid lady who mailed it is pretty funny...might need to make a meme out of her.

      [–]CleverWit 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      I assume most people use the road BECAUSE they don't have street smarts.

      [–]Smythe_Clarke 2 points3 points  (1 child)

      This is why you never F.E.

      [–]ghettomonkey24 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Look what I found. I think its a clue. The plot now thickens:

      http://dkn255hz262ypmii.onion/index.php?topic=27966.0

      [–]LongLiveThe_KingIAMA Shill AMAA 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      They are so fucked.

      [–]oimikey 3 points4 points  (0 children)

      was it a free sample?

      [–][deleted] 3 points4 points  (1 child)

      rice and beans?

      [–]SoCo_cpp 2 points3 points  (0 children)

      Mexican food, the perfect excuse for taking more rights away from citizens and smearing SR.

      [–][deleted] 1 point2 points  (0 children)

      HEISENBERG LIVES!!!

      [–]MY_IRON-LUNGHonorary Shill in Training 0 points1 point  (1 child)

      Good digging gwern. Do you get paid for this caliber of journalism or is it a labor of love?

      [–]dreadly1217 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Damn, and there was a THIRD ricin letter sent to Obama this past year.

      https://www.dropbox.com/s/5oy854x5vc8c8x2/6.19.13%20Indictment.pdf

      EDIT: There is practically no information about this guy on any major news outlets. Also, his trial has been postponed until May 2014. Something very off about this.

      [–]somanyroads 0 points1 point  (0 children)

      Wow...let's hope none of the vendors I ever spent money with did stupid shit like this. This is the stuff that gives pot and psychedelics a bad name, when people who sell them turn to violence.

      [–][deleted] -2 points-1 points  (0 children)

      Attractive woman? Sending home made ricin to liberal political figures? I think I'm in love...

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